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I think this has been passed over rather glibly. Any more information on this? It cannot be true that Hayworth never converted. The fact is, in order to marry a Muslim, anyone non-Muslim certainly has to convert to Islam in order for the marriage to be valid in the Muslim world - and her husband would certainly have insisted on it. I know something of this. The conversion involves a small private ceremony involving a short interview with a few Muslim clerics who want some reassurance that the convert is not going into this blindly - 'what do you know about Islam?' etc. Then you have to read a short declaration in Arabic that you are submitting to the religion, and that's it. As far as I know, once done, this can never be officially rescinded. It seems that Hayworth and her publicity machine pretended that she didn't convert, and obviously she only converted only in order to get married and not out of any religious conviction, which does look rather cynical. It is also a huge mistake to make if you still want your children to be brought up as Christians. One wonders at the consequences of the conversion not just in terms of the strain on her marriage, but on her entire practical and mental life thereafter.— Preceding unsigned comment added by F Antoniovsky ( talk • contribs) 23:36, July 23, 2021 (UTC)
Islamic law does not prohibit a Muslim man marrying a Christian woman, it prohibits a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man. Marianapinera ( talk) 23:15, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
I need help confirming Rita Hayworth, born Margarita Carmen Cansino is of Romani orgin.
Her middle name is Carmen, which could be named after the Spanish Romani woman in the opera Carmen, or her grandmother Carmen Reina, whose descent is unknown. Rita is from a family of flamenco dancers, but that does not guarantee she is Romani. Cansino is also a Jewish family surname, and a Flamenco author confirms Rita's grandfather, Antonio Cansino Avecilla was of Sephardi Jewish descent, but does not mention Romani explicitly. [1]
References
I need help confirming this in a good source. Is there really no interview confirmation with any of the Dancing Cansinos or Rita's siblings or uncles and relatives, etc.?
There are any real source to the claim of romaní origins, and the name Carmen is not related to any particular ethnicity in Spain. Marianapinera ( talk) 22:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Raderich: Hello, you were incorrect in your assessment that none of the sources state she was Romani. The first source by Ian Hancock, she is mentioned in a list of notable people of Romani descent, the second source by Dr. Donald Kendrick explicitly states that she has a “Spanish Gypsy father.” And the third source by Dr. William Nericcio also explicitly states that “Conjecture abounds that she was, in fact, part or all Gypsy.” Please next time be more careful in reading the sources before removing sourced content and let me know if you have any further questions. Best, TagaworShah (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I would actually like to discuss how "academic" sources are more reliable than interviews with Rita Hayworth's family and Spanish journalists, because it seems that the distrust is really due to a case of linguistic discrimination, rather than reality.
The sources on Rita Hayworth's sephardic heritage are based on the claim of her relative Rafael Casino Assens, a Spanish poet and writer who investigate his family bloodline, meanwhile the aren't any source of her family claiming to be Romani descendant... What are these american academics based on and how are more reliable? In reality they are much less reliable because of their remoteness from primary sources. Marianapinera ( talk) 23:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
It would be good to scrutinize the sources consulted by these academics, since they are not experts in Spanish society and their cultural expressions, such as the use of the nickname "gypsy" for any artist related to flamenco, which continues to this day, even to artist like Björk, who we know as "gypsy of the snow". Would a foreign understand the joke of would consider that we "recognized her as Roma"? But the discussion does not go that way, but about that the sources presented are valid according to the standards of the wikia.
In the first place, it is specified that the academic sources are the base but that they are not infallible and that they can be discussed with other types of sources, especially if there are several currents that are ignored (as in this case, in which Spanish researchers differ that what American academics say.)
Secondly, it is also established that blogs can be perfectly used as a source as long as they meet certain reliability criteria. Manuel Bohórquez's investigation meets the requirement for the "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" perfectly. How can be his blog not considered a reliable source despite meeting the requirements? Saying that the rejection is because "it's a blog" is not a valid argument. Marianapinera ( talk) 05:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
If Manuel Bohórquez does not classify from a reliable source because he is a flamenco critic, the research of a language teacher and literary critic is only literature and should not be use as an academic source. Wikipedia should only keep the information from a real reliable source, and show that his father was of Spanish nationality, without any reference to a certain ethnic group.
And as a student of the Spanish Romani culture, I tell you that you should review your information about that gypsy/payo separation, because it is false. As a more direct example, I will tell you that Lola Flores is called a gypsy because she is the lover of a gypsy, Manolo Caracol, not because she is. Marianapinera ( talk) 15:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Veo que simplemente no sabes nada de lo que hablas pero tienes muchas ganas de reclamar famosos Marianapinera ( talk) 16:25, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Lola Flores have a lot of videos saying that she is not romaní, and romanís don't claim her, because to be considered Romani they need to be only Romani blood. If you don't have, you are a "merchero". Marianapinera ( talk) 16:30, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
In fact, yes, you are personally deciding that Bohorquez's research is useless because according to you he does not count as an expert even though he is a scholar of the family branches of flamenco artists such as the Cansino family, which mean he is an expert on the materia, and Wikipedia does allow the use of blogs in this particular case. In addition, the preference of one source over another is also something that is your criteria because it is not what it says in the rules, which clearly state that this case is allowed and which also allows to fully explain that there are discrepancies. The information from these writers has not been deleted, other information from experts has been added. That you do not want to allow it is your personal criterion with censorious spirit of other narratives. Marianapinera ( talk) 16:41, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Rita Hayworth poster. Main character Rita. 71.183.0.84 ( talk) 02:25, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Why use a computer colorized/manipulated version of a B/W magazine soap ad of a B/W movie and call it "Hayworth in Gilda"? Was somebody feeling artistic? 2A02:AA1:1141:8DD0:A18E:CEA2:6A43:B610 ( talk) 21:39, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Rita Hayworth article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I think this has been passed over rather glibly. Any more information on this? It cannot be true that Hayworth never converted. The fact is, in order to marry a Muslim, anyone non-Muslim certainly has to convert to Islam in order for the marriage to be valid in the Muslim world - and her husband would certainly have insisted on it. I know something of this. The conversion involves a small private ceremony involving a short interview with a few Muslim clerics who want some reassurance that the convert is not going into this blindly - 'what do you know about Islam?' etc. Then you have to read a short declaration in Arabic that you are submitting to the religion, and that's it. As far as I know, once done, this can never be officially rescinded. It seems that Hayworth and her publicity machine pretended that she didn't convert, and obviously she only converted only in order to get married and not out of any religious conviction, which does look rather cynical. It is also a huge mistake to make if you still want your children to be brought up as Christians. One wonders at the consequences of the conversion not just in terms of the strain on her marriage, but on her entire practical and mental life thereafter.— Preceding unsigned comment added by F Antoniovsky ( talk • contribs) 23:36, July 23, 2021 (UTC)
Islamic law does not prohibit a Muslim man marrying a Christian woman, it prohibits a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man. Marianapinera ( talk) 23:15, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
I need help confirming Rita Hayworth, born Margarita Carmen Cansino is of Romani orgin.
Her middle name is Carmen, which could be named after the Spanish Romani woman in the opera Carmen, or her grandmother Carmen Reina, whose descent is unknown. Rita is from a family of flamenco dancers, but that does not guarantee she is Romani. Cansino is also a Jewish family surname, and a Flamenco author confirms Rita's grandfather, Antonio Cansino Avecilla was of Sephardi Jewish descent, but does not mention Romani explicitly. [1]
References
I need help confirming this in a good source. Is there really no interview confirmation with any of the Dancing Cansinos or Rita's siblings or uncles and relatives, etc.?
There are any real source to the claim of romaní origins, and the name Carmen is not related to any particular ethnicity in Spain. Marianapinera ( talk) 22:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Raderich: Hello, you were incorrect in your assessment that none of the sources state she was Romani. The first source by Ian Hancock, she is mentioned in a list of notable people of Romani descent, the second source by Dr. Donald Kendrick explicitly states that she has a “Spanish Gypsy father.” And the third source by Dr. William Nericcio also explicitly states that “Conjecture abounds that she was, in fact, part or all Gypsy.” Please next time be more careful in reading the sources before removing sourced content and let me know if you have any further questions. Best, TagaworShah (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I would actually like to discuss how "academic" sources are more reliable than interviews with Rita Hayworth's family and Spanish journalists, because it seems that the distrust is really due to a case of linguistic discrimination, rather than reality.
The sources on Rita Hayworth's sephardic heritage are based on the claim of her relative Rafael Casino Assens, a Spanish poet and writer who investigate his family bloodline, meanwhile the aren't any source of her family claiming to be Romani descendant... What are these american academics based on and how are more reliable? In reality they are much less reliable because of their remoteness from primary sources. Marianapinera ( talk) 23:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
It would be good to scrutinize the sources consulted by these academics, since they are not experts in Spanish society and their cultural expressions, such as the use of the nickname "gypsy" for any artist related to flamenco, which continues to this day, even to artist like Björk, who we know as "gypsy of the snow". Would a foreign understand the joke of would consider that we "recognized her as Roma"? But the discussion does not go that way, but about that the sources presented are valid according to the standards of the wikia.
In the first place, it is specified that the academic sources are the base but that they are not infallible and that they can be discussed with other types of sources, especially if there are several currents that are ignored (as in this case, in which Spanish researchers differ that what American academics say.)
Secondly, it is also established that blogs can be perfectly used as a source as long as they meet certain reliability criteria. Manuel Bohórquez's investigation meets the requirement for the "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" perfectly. How can be his blog not considered a reliable source despite meeting the requirements? Saying that the rejection is because "it's a blog" is not a valid argument. Marianapinera ( talk) 05:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
If Manuel Bohórquez does not classify from a reliable source because he is a flamenco critic, the research of a language teacher and literary critic is only literature and should not be use as an academic source. Wikipedia should only keep the information from a real reliable source, and show that his father was of Spanish nationality, without any reference to a certain ethnic group.
And as a student of the Spanish Romani culture, I tell you that you should review your information about that gypsy/payo separation, because it is false. As a more direct example, I will tell you that Lola Flores is called a gypsy because she is the lover of a gypsy, Manolo Caracol, not because she is. Marianapinera ( talk) 15:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Veo que simplemente no sabes nada de lo que hablas pero tienes muchas ganas de reclamar famosos Marianapinera ( talk) 16:25, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Lola Flores have a lot of videos saying that she is not romaní, and romanís don't claim her, because to be considered Romani they need to be only Romani blood. If you don't have, you are a "merchero". Marianapinera ( talk) 16:30, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
In fact, yes, you are personally deciding that Bohorquez's research is useless because according to you he does not count as an expert even though he is a scholar of the family branches of flamenco artists such as the Cansino family, which mean he is an expert on the materia, and Wikipedia does allow the use of blogs in this particular case. In addition, the preference of one source over another is also something that is your criteria because it is not what it says in the rules, which clearly state that this case is allowed and which also allows to fully explain that there are discrepancies. The information from these writers has not been deleted, other information from experts has been added. That you do not want to allow it is your personal criterion with censorious spirit of other narratives. Marianapinera ( talk) 16:41, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Rita Hayworth poster. Main character Rita. 71.183.0.84 ( talk) 02:25, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Why use a computer colorized/manipulated version of a B/W magazine soap ad of a B/W movie and call it "Hayworth in Gilda"? Was somebody feeling artistic? 2A02:AA1:1141:8DD0:A18E:CEA2:6A43:B610 ( talk) 21:39, 22 February 2024 (UTC)