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As others have pointed out, for one side or another, this part of the article is slightly biased. It should not be ignored or excluded, but it should show both sides of the theory, instead of just some shaky evidence for one side presented as undeniable fact.
I restored the racial criticism of the game, although it appears different from numerous (and helpful) changes that were made earlier. I would appreciate if whoever made those changes could try and restore some of them - the history is too long for me to find them all.
It should be noted (as many contributors on the FF series fail to recognize) that there are many factors that Americans overlook with the Americanized versions of the games. So far, I had to correct the articles on Zell, Seifer, and now Rinoa because contributors are ignorant of the racial and cultural divides that exist between Japan and America, and which are easily overlooked (or unrecognized) by individuals without proper cultural awareness. The Asian-Caucasian dating controversey is just one of these factors. I wouldn't expect an average American to be aware of this, but at the same time, they must defer to those of us who are. -- L. 8 July 2005 16:48 (UTC)
Uh, the "racial" comments in the article are unclear. Asian/Caucasian match-ups are "bad"? Either be specific or the section is pointless and, frankly, racist in its connotations.
Since subsequent changes to this material were still weaselly, gramatically tortuous and badly linked, I've had a go at rewriting it. I hope it covers the relevant matters concisely and with NPOV. There's a case for whether this material needs to be there at all, but while it is, it may as well read well =) > Gamemaker 13:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the article needs good sources to back up this entire section of the article. It should definitely be considered for deletion if there is nothing to back up these statements. Right now it seems like this part of the article is suggesting there is a problem with interracial relationships. Plus the fact that the designer who designed Rinoa said she was modeled as European also makes this section inaccurate. It seems completely one-sided in opinion. Jason Gervais 10:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually there is a princess reference at least three times. The first time is on the Forest Owls Train when Zone tells Squall to go wake the princess--Rinoa--and the second is on Fisherman's Horizon when Quistis jokes to Squall on a way to awaken the comatose Rinoa "She might awaken from a kiss from the prince." (Almost perfect wording but not quite.) The third time this occurs is on the Ragnarok if you have Quistis in your party and she'll say "Where's the princess that changed the ever cautious Squall?" So that is why that reference is there. -Eileen-
I have added back the race issue in the last paragraph but I edited it to make it more accurate and I think it is it flows better and doesn't seem as negative. -Eileen-
Don't revert quite yet. I'll find a source. -Eileen-
The bit where Squall is referred to as 'antisocial' is incorrect- antisocial people like to harm others rather than avoid them. Would 'unsocial,' 'avoident,' or 'schizoid' better describe him? Eowynjedi 01:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Squall is antisocial. He doesn't want to have any relationships with anyone. Unsocial doesn't cut it. -Eileen-
At some point, this article mentioned how later Final Fantasy heroines have the same generic Rinoa look. I mean this is a PART of the Final Fantasy community. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with it; this is an actual issue, a pretty big criticism of Square-Enix. Google in "Rinoa clone" sometime. I think it should be included in the article.
This isn't important. It shouldn't be included. -Eileen-
I made an entry about Rinoa in the KH series. It is worth mentioning that she exists in that series, even though she didn't make an official appearance. NeoSeifer
Be that as it may, these are all theories. While they do have a place on the page, they should not be stated as out-and-out fact. Only when Rinoa actually makes an appearance or is explicitly alluded to can this be considered factual.
I put back "the heroine" instead of "one of the heroines" since FFVIII is Squall's and her story. -Eileen-
Well how can Quistis and Selphie can heroines if they fade into the background after disc 2 when the game focuses on Squall and Rinoa's relationship? They are heroic but I wouldn't call them heroines because the game doesn't focus on them, Edea's possessed for alot of the game and Ellone is absent for much of it on the White SeeD ship. How about this: Keep her article as heroine and put the others as primary characters, making them important since she's more important storywise? Could we please? I don't want an edit war. I just wrote heroine because it simplier to spell and takes up less space. I'd use simple words for the same effect, regardless of whether it is "encyclopedic". Plus it is not original research. -Eileen-
"I'd use simple words for the same effect, regardless of whether it is "encyclopedic"."
Actually that is exactly what I had in mind. We must think similarly. -Eileen-
How about we call Rinoa "the heroine" and Quistis and Selphie "a main character or heroine"? (Feel free to choose or suggest a new idea). I'm suggesting this so no one is shoved aside but Rinoa is the heroine (to emphasis her importance in the story as the female lead). Are you ok with this? I also think we should also do this with the guys too (Squall, Zell and Irvine.) -Eileen-
I've reviewed the article and it appears to pass the GA criteria. I made a few tiny edits, but overall, a job well done. Mahanga Talk to me 03:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
1a: pass b: pass c: weak pass. It does not seriously violate the MOS for writing fiction, but the article could be improved in that area.
2a: pass b: pass c: pass
3a: pass b: pass
4a: pass b: pass
5: pass
6: pass (I added fair use rationale for the image)
I love this article. Thanks Deckiller for working so hard on it. Here is what I think should be added to the article:
1. Sheila's site about Rinoa. I normally don't like fanlistings and they usually shouldn't be in articles but I think there should be an exception for this one because it is exceptionally well done and the author doesn't use her opinions very often.
2. Rinoa's Asian looking features.
That is my opinion. -Eileen-
It's true it doesn't really matter. I just noticed that she looks a little Asian, at least her eyes do. -Eileen-
I've heard that but your right still don't have a source. Are you gonna try to find one? -Eileen-
On top of this racial issue, it all seems terribly relative. As a Chinese person, I view most of Square-Enix's CG'd characters as having distinctive Japanese style and features, even if they aren't intended to be Japanese, per se (i.e. Tidus, Selphie, Rinoa, Quistis) and I attribute that mainly to models that are more than likely going to be Japanese/Asian. Luminum ( talk) 11:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
i'm not really sure if this is the right place or way to mention this, but, in my experience rinoa is a very "controversial" character in terms of her popularity. i.e, a lot of people find her annoying, and she's often cited as one of the most annoying characters in the ff series, etc., etc. however, her "criticism" section is basically devoid of any of that - it only mentions various people that do like her. i'm not sure, but, it seems to me like the negative reaction to her is also worth mentioning...? 67.189.241.139 ( talk) 03:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I thought it was a rather well circulated theory that Rinoa and Ultimecia are alluded to being the same individual in the game. Though nothing was ever officially stated by Square-Enix, is it worth mentioning the relationship and the possible in-game references? I was surprised to see no discussion about it on this page and no reference to it under Ultimecia's profiel or Rinoa's.
Some major indicators:
1) GF's can come from rings (i.e. Solomon Ring and Doom Train) and Squall's ring is named at the beginning of the game (Griever) and the name carries to Ultimecia's final summon. The person who has the ring during the game is Rinoa, who is given the ring and its copy by Zell and never returns it to Squall during the game.
2) Ultimecia's castle is located in the field of flowers where Rinoa promises to meet Squall if she ever gets lost. Though Ultimecia never explains this, it could be subconscious, based upon the promise and years of memory loss due to a GF.
3) Ultimecia actively pursues Seifer in the past. I they are the same individual, and if GF's do indeed cause memory damage, an aged Rinoa/Ultimecia could look at Seifer and see him as Squall based on not only the gunblade and scar, but the fragmented memories of Rinoa's past relationship with Seifer. As well she chooses him as her knight, which may be reciprocal from Squall swearing to be Rinoa's knight.
4) Ultimecia's final speech upon her defeat talks about loss and the fleetingness of time, possibly a reference to a now deceased Squall.
5) Both Ultimecia and Rinoa share a feather motif; Rinoa's being white and Ultimecia's being black.
6) During the final scene when Squall is lost in time compression, views of Rinoa are consistently superimposed on Ultimecia. If time is compressed, then looking at an individual should show all forms of that person past and present, and thus, looking at Rinoa would reveal Ultimecia. A final shot of a faceless Squall points to his future death possibly inspiring Rinoa's change to Ultimecia. The realization of what Rinoa may become may result in the tears Squall cries at the end.
7) If Squall dies on a mission, it may be the reason why a future, muddled Rinoa might hate SeeD and SeeDs.
Basically, Ultimecia is a GF-memory muddled Rinoa bent on time compression who cannot remember the initial reasons for her quest nor can any longer recall her friends of the one she really loved, only the key vestiges of that past: SeeDs, gunblade-wielder as knight, field of flowers, Griever. Not all of these points stand up well on their own, but seem to make a strong case when corroborate with one another. I also recall emailing a Square-Enix employee and getting the statement that there was nothing oficial, but that he personally felt it was one of the better theories out there. Consider it? Luminum ( talk) 11:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Well if this would be true. Then there would be a reason to make a movie out of FF8 as a continuing storyline. But thats just my theory. It will propably never happen, We can allways hope or dream about it.
Afterall. It is stated false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.233.247.10 ( talk) 20:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Scenario writer Kazushige Nojima said "it is scary to think about the impact that a game can give to the society"
I'd paraphrase and move this quote elsewhere czar ♔ 13:43, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
So this is another one of the Niemti articles. Based on the exhaustive sourcing, I don't see how this character is independently notable. The closest we get is that quote that Rinoa's name is unforgettable. The rest of the list mentions are passing mentions and don't constitute significant coverage for the general notability guideline. I can go on, but I would propose that the prose be greatly condensed and then merged as a major section back into the FF8 characters article. czar 14:23, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Axem Titanium ( talk · contribs) 02:08, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Review in progress. Axem Titanium ( talk) 07:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Rinoa Heartilly has been listed as one of the Video games good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rinoa Heartilly is part of the Characters of Final Fantasy VIII series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Rinoa Heartilly article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find video game sources: "Rinoa Heartilly" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · TWL · NYT · WP reference · VG/RS · VG/RL · WPVG/Talk |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
As others have pointed out, for one side or another, this part of the article is slightly biased. It should not be ignored or excluded, but it should show both sides of the theory, instead of just some shaky evidence for one side presented as undeniable fact.
I restored the racial criticism of the game, although it appears different from numerous (and helpful) changes that were made earlier. I would appreciate if whoever made those changes could try and restore some of them - the history is too long for me to find them all.
It should be noted (as many contributors on the FF series fail to recognize) that there are many factors that Americans overlook with the Americanized versions of the games. So far, I had to correct the articles on Zell, Seifer, and now Rinoa because contributors are ignorant of the racial and cultural divides that exist between Japan and America, and which are easily overlooked (or unrecognized) by individuals without proper cultural awareness. The Asian-Caucasian dating controversey is just one of these factors. I wouldn't expect an average American to be aware of this, but at the same time, they must defer to those of us who are. -- L. 8 July 2005 16:48 (UTC)
Uh, the "racial" comments in the article are unclear. Asian/Caucasian match-ups are "bad"? Either be specific or the section is pointless and, frankly, racist in its connotations.
Since subsequent changes to this material were still weaselly, gramatically tortuous and badly linked, I've had a go at rewriting it. I hope it covers the relevant matters concisely and with NPOV. There's a case for whether this material needs to be there at all, but while it is, it may as well read well =) > Gamemaker 13:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the article needs good sources to back up this entire section of the article. It should definitely be considered for deletion if there is nothing to back up these statements. Right now it seems like this part of the article is suggesting there is a problem with interracial relationships. Plus the fact that the designer who designed Rinoa said she was modeled as European also makes this section inaccurate. It seems completely one-sided in opinion. Jason Gervais 10:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually there is a princess reference at least three times. The first time is on the Forest Owls Train when Zone tells Squall to go wake the princess--Rinoa--and the second is on Fisherman's Horizon when Quistis jokes to Squall on a way to awaken the comatose Rinoa "She might awaken from a kiss from the prince." (Almost perfect wording but not quite.) The third time this occurs is on the Ragnarok if you have Quistis in your party and she'll say "Where's the princess that changed the ever cautious Squall?" So that is why that reference is there. -Eileen-
I have added back the race issue in the last paragraph but I edited it to make it more accurate and I think it is it flows better and doesn't seem as negative. -Eileen-
Don't revert quite yet. I'll find a source. -Eileen-
The bit where Squall is referred to as 'antisocial' is incorrect- antisocial people like to harm others rather than avoid them. Would 'unsocial,' 'avoident,' or 'schizoid' better describe him? Eowynjedi 01:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Squall is antisocial. He doesn't want to have any relationships with anyone. Unsocial doesn't cut it. -Eileen-
At some point, this article mentioned how later Final Fantasy heroines have the same generic Rinoa look. I mean this is a PART of the Final Fantasy community. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with it; this is an actual issue, a pretty big criticism of Square-Enix. Google in "Rinoa clone" sometime. I think it should be included in the article.
This isn't important. It shouldn't be included. -Eileen-
I made an entry about Rinoa in the KH series. It is worth mentioning that she exists in that series, even though she didn't make an official appearance. NeoSeifer
Be that as it may, these are all theories. While they do have a place on the page, they should not be stated as out-and-out fact. Only when Rinoa actually makes an appearance or is explicitly alluded to can this be considered factual.
I put back "the heroine" instead of "one of the heroines" since FFVIII is Squall's and her story. -Eileen-
Well how can Quistis and Selphie can heroines if they fade into the background after disc 2 when the game focuses on Squall and Rinoa's relationship? They are heroic but I wouldn't call them heroines because the game doesn't focus on them, Edea's possessed for alot of the game and Ellone is absent for much of it on the White SeeD ship. How about this: Keep her article as heroine and put the others as primary characters, making them important since she's more important storywise? Could we please? I don't want an edit war. I just wrote heroine because it simplier to spell and takes up less space. I'd use simple words for the same effect, regardless of whether it is "encyclopedic". Plus it is not original research. -Eileen-
"I'd use simple words for the same effect, regardless of whether it is "encyclopedic"."
Actually that is exactly what I had in mind. We must think similarly. -Eileen-
How about we call Rinoa "the heroine" and Quistis and Selphie "a main character or heroine"? (Feel free to choose or suggest a new idea). I'm suggesting this so no one is shoved aside but Rinoa is the heroine (to emphasis her importance in the story as the female lead). Are you ok with this? I also think we should also do this with the guys too (Squall, Zell and Irvine.) -Eileen-
I've reviewed the article and it appears to pass the GA criteria. I made a few tiny edits, but overall, a job well done. Mahanga Talk to me 03:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
1a: pass b: pass c: weak pass. It does not seriously violate the MOS for writing fiction, but the article could be improved in that area.
2a: pass b: pass c: pass
3a: pass b: pass
4a: pass b: pass
5: pass
6: pass (I added fair use rationale for the image)
I love this article. Thanks Deckiller for working so hard on it. Here is what I think should be added to the article:
1. Sheila's site about Rinoa. I normally don't like fanlistings and they usually shouldn't be in articles but I think there should be an exception for this one because it is exceptionally well done and the author doesn't use her opinions very often.
2. Rinoa's Asian looking features.
That is my opinion. -Eileen-
It's true it doesn't really matter. I just noticed that she looks a little Asian, at least her eyes do. -Eileen-
I've heard that but your right still don't have a source. Are you gonna try to find one? -Eileen-
On top of this racial issue, it all seems terribly relative. As a Chinese person, I view most of Square-Enix's CG'd characters as having distinctive Japanese style and features, even if they aren't intended to be Japanese, per se (i.e. Tidus, Selphie, Rinoa, Quistis) and I attribute that mainly to models that are more than likely going to be Japanese/Asian. Luminum ( talk) 11:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
i'm not really sure if this is the right place or way to mention this, but, in my experience rinoa is a very "controversial" character in terms of her popularity. i.e, a lot of people find her annoying, and she's often cited as one of the most annoying characters in the ff series, etc., etc. however, her "criticism" section is basically devoid of any of that - it only mentions various people that do like her. i'm not sure, but, it seems to me like the negative reaction to her is also worth mentioning...? 67.189.241.139 ( talk) 03:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I thought it was a rather well circulated theory that Rinoa and Ultimecia are alluded to being the same individual in the game. Though nothing was ever officially stated by Square-Enix, is it worth mentioning the relationship and the possible in-game references? I was surprised to see no discussion about it on this page and no reference to it under Ultimecia's profiel or Rinoa's.
Some major indicators:
1) GF's can come from rings (i.e. Solomon Ring and Doom Train) and Squall's ring is named at the beginning of the game (Griever) and the name carries to Ultimecia's final summon. The person who has the ring during the game is Rinoa, who is given the ring and its copy by Zell and never returns it to Squall during the game.
2) Ultimecia's castle is located in the field of flowers where Rinoa promises to meet Squall if she ever gets lost. Though Ultimecia never explains this, it could be subconscious, based upon the promise and years of memory loss due to a GF.
3) Ultimecia actively pursues Seifer in the past. I they are the same individual, and if GF's do indeed cause memory damage, an aged Rinoa/Ultimecia could look at Seifer and see him as Squall based on not only the gunblade and scar, but the fragmented memories of Rinoa's past relationship with Seifer. As well she chooses him as her knight, which may be reciprocal from Squall swearing to be Rinoa's knight.
4) Ultimecia's final speech upon her defeat talks about loss and the fleetingness of time, possibly a reference to a now deceased Squall.
5) Both Ultimecia and Rinoa share a feather motif; Rinoa's being white and Ultimecia's being black.
6) During the final scene when Squall is lost in time compression, views of Rinoa are consistently superimposed on Ultimecia. If time is compressed, then looking at an individual should show all forms of that person past and present, and thus, looking at Rinoa would reveal Ultimecia. A final shot of a faceless Squall points to his future death possibly inspiring Rinoa's change to Ultimecia. The realization of what Rinoa may become may result in the tears Squall cries at the end.
7) If Squall dies on a mission, it may be the reason why a future, muddled Rinoa might hate SeeD and SeeDs.
Basically, Ultimecia is a GF-memory muddled Rinoa bent on time compression who cannot remember the initial reasons for her quest nor can any longer recall her friends of the one she really loved, only the key vestiges of that past: SeeDs, gunblade-wielder as knight, field of flowers, Griever. Not all of these points stand up well on their own, but seem to make a strong case when corroborate with one another. I also recall emailing a Square-Enix employee and getting the statement that there was nothing oficial, but that he personally felt it was one of the better theories out there. Consider it? Luminum ( talk) 11:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Well if this would be true. Then there would be a reason to make a movie out of FF8 as a continuing storyline. But thats just my theory. It will propably never happen, We can allways hope or dream about it.
Afterall. It is stated false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.233.247.10 ( talk) 20:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Scenario writer Kazushige Nojima said "it is scary to think about the impact that a game can give to the society"
I'd paraphrase and move this quote elsewhere czar ♔ 13:43, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
So this is another one of the Niemti articles. Based on the exhaustive sourcing, I don't see how this character is independently notable. The closest we get is that quote that Rinoa's name is unforgettable. The rest of the list mentions are passing mentions and don't constitute significant coverage for the general notability guideline. I can go on, but I would propose that the prose be greatly condensed and then merged as a major section back into the FF8 characters article. czar 14:23, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Axem Titanium ( talk · contribs) 02:08, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Review in progress. Axem Titanium ( talk) 07:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)