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It's interesting that a large region of white non-rhoticity correlates strongly to the heart of the Black Belt region of the Southern U.S. Surely this is not just a coincidence?-- Pharos 04:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In the article it is stated that, "Areas with non-rhotic accents include Africa, Australia, Malta, most of the Caribbean, most of England (especially Received Pronunciation speakers), most of New Zealand, South Africa and Wales. Singapore and Malaysia are also two examples of countries in Asia with a non-rhotic accent."
The map of England displayed seems to have more area coloured pink for Rhotic than white for Non-rhotic... this would seem to be contradictory. If you are speaking of a majority by population rather than by geographic area it would be best to say so and show statistics in addition to a map.
22 July 2006 @ 1639EDT
I tried to draw a map based on the above one and on this one here: [1] If you like it, use it for the article.-- Unoffensive text or character 14:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The East Riding of Yorkshire was definitely rhotic traditionally, although I think that this is dying out. Epa101 16:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Most people in Oldham are still rhotic, which is a bit bizarre when all of the towns that surround Oldham are non-rhotic! Epa101 19:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Re current para:
I don't know if hypercorrection is the right cause or just a convenient label. I don't believe misplaced Rs are peculiar to North America. I am certain I have heard Irish people say "Chicargo", "perjorative", "fermiliar", etc; conversely, one hears "suprise", "paraphenalia", "balmy" (for barmy). These strike me as just mispronunciations like any other, not hypercorrections. The converse to nonrhotic accents having more opportunity for homonyms and consequent misspellings is that rhotic accents have more opportunity for mishearings and consequent mispronunciations, especially if you first hear a word from a nonrhotic source. That said, I don't recall ever hearing intrusive-R from a rhotic Irish speaker. jnestorius( talk) 19:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
How should we classify the "r" sound in "colonel"? In practically any other word with an L between two vowels, the L is not silent. Yet rhotic and non-rhotic accents both replace it with their respective forms of "R". Hypercorrection? A mistake that stuck? Simply an oddity? jimgawn.
I believe the portion that reads, "In Canada, non-rhotic accents are found in the Maritimes." is incorrect. Typical Maritimer English involves a strong rhotic accent, particularly where the r is preceded by the letter a,i.e. car, bar.
The non-rhotic accent associated most with Atlantic Canada is that of the South Shore of Nova Scotia (generally that area along the Atlantic coast from SW of Halifax to Shelburne.) It resembles quite closely the accent of northern New England but its origins are more German than English.
While the article includes the Caribbean in the list of areas with non-rhotic accents, it would be more accurate to call them semi-rhotic. In Jamaican English, the 'r' is not dropped in word-final position instressed syllables. Words like 'there' and 'car' are pronounced with a final 'r' (a strongy emphasized one at that), while words like 'water' or 'hurt' are pronounced as in non-rhotic dialects. Perhaps due to competing influences from non-rhotic UK and rhotic US? Or the history of both rhotic and non-rhotic dialects immigrating from the UK? Makerowner 22:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd be interested in a section or an article about "standard English singing pronunciation" as found in pop/rock songs. That is, how this very peculiar form of singing developed, and why. It seems to be mostly like American English, but non-rhotic. (The country music way of singing is different though, and rhotic.) This pronunciation is found all over the world with singers of pop/rock. It seems to have developed through a back-and-forth thing between England and USA when rock was developing. English English speakers adopt a mostly American accent but non-rhotic when singing. Otherwise rhotic Americans convert to non-rhoticism. And people with other than English as a first language who normally would speak in a mostly American and very rhotic accent (probably due to the influence of American pop culture) usually go non-rhotic when entering pop singing mode too. I know that here in Scandinavia it's the absolute norm. This is pretty much all I could find about the subject (Trudgill, who you guys seem to be familiar with, is referenced): http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/03/dont-believe-ype.html
http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/06/trudgill-on-pop-song-pronunciation.html
http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/06/intrusive-intrusive-r.html
Some singers don't conform to this though, like Leigh Nash from Sixpence None the Richer. Others too, of course, which I don't remember now. I think it would be extremely interesting to find out if this is an intentional decision or just subconscious - but that seems pretty impossible, I can't find anything about it online. 193.91.181.142 22:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC) (Nick)
That would be really interesting. Mind you, I'm Scottish and speak with a rhotic accent, but I'm pretty sure I sing with a rhotic American accent too. I try to avoid singing in general as it tends to upset the people around me, but if it's in the name of phonetics... (Emma)
Anthony Newley, Syd Barrett and (early) David Bowie sung in non NAm pronunciation. PS a pedant writes Ian Curtis was from Cheshire(Macclesfield precisely)not that I'd have thought that makes any difference!
As folk songs usually written in a dialect, some of them are rhotic. "Poverty Knock", set in Lancashire, is fully rhotic. " Blackleg Miner" should be rhotic, but most of the bands that cover it hardly pay any attention to its dialect. Epa101 16:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Are there any non-rhotic regional varieties of Scottish English? Cf. Distribution of rhotic and nonrhotic accents: "Rhotic accents can be found in ... parts of Scotland". This implies that there are other parts of Scotlands, where non rhotic speech prevails. Where would that be? Unoffensive text or character 12:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the section on LETTER is confused. The X-SAMPA [@`] indicates an r-coloured vowel, which would mean a rhotic accent. E.g. the [@`] in LETTER for the fully rhotic Charlesworth (Derbyshire) speaker - [3] - indicates an r-coloured [@] just as the [a`:] or [A`:] in START for the same speaker indicates an r-coloured [a:] or [A:].
The point about Nafferton and Welwick (both East Riding) is that they only show rhoticity on the LETTER set: LETTER [@`], but START [a:] with no r-colouring.
The bit in the caption of the map seems to be right, though: the LETTER-only area in the East Riding isn't shaded.
-- JHJ 19:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
'Non-rhotic speakers pronounce "r" only if it is followed by a vowel'
That seems a little misleading. As a non-rhotic speaker of (as Michael Caine might say) 'English English' I would pronounce 'hair' and 'hare' - or 'four' and 'fore' in the same manner. I don't think I'm clevver enough to define it myself but perhaps someone else could cook up an improvement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jigsawpuzzleman ( talk • contribs) 10:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've just read the article and find that I don't understand what it is saying. The article seems to describe things in technical terms and discuss the history of the accents, yet I can't get a grip on what difference is being discussed. A few simple examples would go down well - eg a some common word or phrase and simplistic representations of how it is pronounced rhotically and non-rhotically. By Simplistic I mean use normal sltters not IPA or SAMPA or any wacky stuff. This has nothing to do with Rhoticness, but I am aware that scone can be pronounced either skown or skonn while bath can be pronounced either barth or to rhyme with math. Can someone sort out a couple of similar examples here. Cheers. -- SGBailey 21:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like some understandable examples as well, possibly even audio of native speakers? If I understood what the difference was I would be happy to record whichever I have. -- Taboo Tongue 21:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a pretty good article on an aspect of English that stares us in the face but is rarely discussed. I think the paragraphs on rhotic and non-rhotic areas of the world need cleaning up a little (perhaps expanding), and in a few instances referencing is required.
If that is done, should it be listed in the FAC room? Tony 00:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It's much better, but now it doesn't flow smoothly into the second para. Tony 22:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems odd to me that an article on accents and pronunciation, which does indeed have IPA pronunciation guides on it, does not provide the pronunciation of the word 'Rhotic' in any accent. If there's a difference between the GenAm and RP, I think they should both be there. I'd put the IPA there myself, but I've never ~heard~ it elsewhere. My friends and I, looking at the spelling are divided on whether it'd be pronounced (by Australians) to rhyme with "Boat-ick" or "Bott-ick". -- The Chairman 04:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The tags are from February, I think it's long enough.-- 91.148.159.4 23:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
In some dialects of American English, people will add an /ɹ/ to certain words through hypercorrection, the most common examples being /wɔɹʃ/, /ˈwɔɹtɚ/, /aɪˈdiɚ/ and /dɹɔɹ/ for wash, water, idea and draw. citation needed This hypercorrection also occurs in the Canadian and British English pronunciation of /ˈkɑɹki/ for khaki, although this is fading over time and many young Canadians now use the American pronunciation of /ˈkæki/. citation needed
Although some speakers of English in India are rhotic, many are not. This may have to do with where one is educated. I studied at English schools in urban India, and I, like most of my peers, am non-rhotic in my pronunciation of English words. I would say that lack of rhoticity is possibly a marker of "good" English-language education in India.
Noticed that an edit trying to add Corby to the list of rhotic areas was rejected recently.
I have never been to Corby in my life. However, I have noticed and also read about the fact that the Corby accent is more like Scottish English than English English. As Scottish accents are almost all rhotic, I would presume that Corby is rhotic. Is this correct? If so, I would have no objection to it being added to the list. Epa101 16:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Google doesn't seem to find a lot of linguistic analysis of Corby accents, and what it does find is mostly about other Scottish features than rhoticity. (Apparently some Scottish features have been lost in the younger generations, but enough have been retained that the accent still sounds Scottish to other English people.) There is this, which does explicitly mention rhoticity, but it's only one speaker.-- JHJ 16:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This article cannot be understood by anyone without a degree in linguistics.
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. — An gr 19:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
From Regional accents of English speakers:
In Western Australia, a tendency to pronounce words such as "beer" with two syllables (/biː.ə/ or "be-ah"), in cases where other Australians use one syllable (/biə/), has been noted ( Sydney Morning Herald, January 28, 2005).
Does this fit the definition of rhoticity? Grant | Talk 06:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The article shows two maps of England, one with far less rhoticity than the other. Has the decline been documented? I can't see it mentioned in the text of the article.-- PeterR 14:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Just an observation of American English accents around New York City. While many pronunciations are very similar throughout the New York City area, one main difference is in rhotic vs. non-rhotic:
- The famous Brooklyn accent is non-rhotic.
- Manhattan has too many people from all over the United States and the world to make an easy conclusion on any local pronunciation.
- The average native New Jersey speaker now speak rhotic English. (A good example is the character Randall Graves from the movie Clerks, played by Jeff Anderson.) However, it's possible in the past it was different; my grandmother, born in 1910 and having grown up in Hudson and Bergen Counties in NE New Jersey, would pronounce some words like father and water in a non-rhotic way. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Spettro9 (
talk •
contribs) 20:08, 20 August 2007
Here's a partial list in case it's any use to anyone editing the article.
tuba tuber tuna tuner rota rotor formally formerly manna manor coda coder ova over ejecta ejector lava larva father farther fought fort taught tort sought sort caught court law lore saw sore thaw Thor baa bar fa far ma mar spa spar pa par
— Alan ✉ 06:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
In the England maps the rhotic areas are red while the non-rhotic areas of the US are red. Roger ( talk) 08:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
This is indeed very unpleasant.-- 89.133.83.220 ( talk) 21:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
IMHO the US map is way too progressive. It is based on a study of which the main aim was to survey the changes which are under progress in present-day America, and it used data EXCLUSIVELY from urban areas, which are much less conservative than rural areas. The problem with this is that it misrepresents the state of non-rhoticity in Eastern New England and especially the South, because it doesn't show the fact that non-rhoticity is much commoner with older rural speakers than with those whom the study investigated. If you go to the page of The International Dialects of English Archive, for example, you can find recordings from plenty of non-rhotic or semi-rhotic (older) speakers from all over Georgia, the Carolinas and Tenessee, which is not indicated on the map. The same goes for Main and New Hampshire. So I think either another map should be made or the text under the current one should be modified to something like this:
Non-rhoticity is reccessive in the United States. The red areas are those where non-rhotic pronunciation among whites is still common in both urban and rural areas and is found even with many younger speakers. AAVE-influenced non-rhotic pronunciations may be found among African-Americans throughout the country. Map based on Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006:48) -- 89.133.83.220 ( talk) 21:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is "Arse" spelled that way in England? I've never heard one pronounce the 'r'.
72.230.10.152 ( talk) 05:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Just an aside: Is it true that in England "arse" /ɑ:s/ is the part of the body you sit on and the word "ass" /æs/ is derived from Latin asinus and denotes simply a stupid person? Unoffensive text or character ( talk) 07:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It's interesting that a large region of white non-rhoticity correlates strongly to the heart of the Black Belt region of the Southern U.S. Surely this is not just a coincidence?-- Pharos 04:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In the article it is stated that, "Areas with non-rhotic accents include Africa, Australia, Malta, most of the Caribbean, most of England (especially Received Pronunciation speakers), most of New Zealand, South Africa and Wales. Singapore and Malaysia are also two examples of countries in Asia with a non-rhotic accent."
The map of England displayed seems to have more area coloured pink for Rhotic than white for Non-rhotic... this would seem to be contradictory. If you are speaking of a majority by population rather than by geographic area it would be best to say so and show statistics in addition to a map.
22 July 2006 @ 1639EDT
I tried to draw a map based on the above one and on this one here: [1] If you like it, use it for the article.-- Unoffensive text or character 14:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The East Riding of Yorkshire was definitely rhotic traditionally, although I think that this is dying out. Epa101 16:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Most people in Oldham are still rhotic, which is a bit bizarre when all of the towns that surround Oldham are non-rhotic! Epa101 19:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Re current para:
I don't know if hypercorrection is the right cause or just a convenient label. I don't believe misplaced Rs are peculiar to North America. I am certain I have heard Irish people say "Chicargo", "perjorative", "fermiliar", etc; conversely, one hears "suprise", "paraphenalia", "balmy" (for barmy). These strike me as just mispronunciations like any other, not hypercorrections. The converse to nonrhotic accents having more opportunity for homonyms and consequent misspellings is that rhotic accents have more opportunity for mishearings and consequent mispronunciations, especially if you first hear a word from a nonrhotic source. That said, I don't recall ever hearing intrusive-R from a rhotic Irish speaker. jnestorius( talk) 19:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
How should we classify the "r" sound in "colonel"? In practically any other word with an L between two vowels, the L is not silent. Yet rhotic and non-rhotic accents both replace it with their respective forms of "R". Hypercorrection? A mistake that stuck? Simply an oddity? jimgawn.
I believe the portion that reads, "In Canada, non-rhotic accents are found in the Maritimes." is incorrect. Typical Maritimer English involves a strong rhotic accent, particularly where the r is preceded by the letter a,i.e. car, bar.
The non-rhotic accent associated most with Atlantic Canada is that of the South Shore of Nova Scotia (generally that area along the Atlantic coast from SW of Halifax to Shelburne.) It resembles quite closely the accent of northern New England but its origins are more German than English.
While the article includes the Caribbean in the list of areas with non-rhotic accents, it would be more accurate to call them semi-rhotic. In Jamaican English, the 'r' is not dropped in word-final position instressed syllables. Words like 'there' and 'car' are pronounced with a final 'r' (a strongy emphasized one at that), while words like 'water' or 'hurt' are pronounced as in non-rhotic dialects. Perhaps due to competing influences from non-rhotic UK and rhotic US? Or the history of both rhotic and non-rhotic dialects immigrating from the UK? Makerowner 22:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd be interested in a section or an article about "standard English singing pronunciation" as found in pop/rock songs. That is, how this very peculiar form of singing developed, and why. It seems to be mostly like American English, but non-rhotic. (The country music way of singing is different though, and rhotic.) This pronunciation is found all over the world with singers of pop/rock. It seems to have developed through a back-and-forth thing between England and USA when rock was developing. English English speakers adopt a mostly American accent but non-rhotic when singing. Otherwise rhotic Americans convert to non-rhoticism. And people with other than English as a first language who normally would speak in a mostly American and very rhotic accent (probably due to the influence of American pop culture) usually go non-rhotic when entering pop singing mode too. I know that here in Scandinavia it's the absolute norm. This is pretty much all I could find about the subject (Trudgill, who you guys seem to be familiar with, is referenced): http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/03/dont-believe-ype.html
http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/06/trudgill-on-pop-song-pronunciation.html
http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/06/intrusive-intrusive-r.html
Some singers don't conform to this though, like Leigh Nash from Sixpence None the Richer. Others too, of course, which I don't remember now. I think it would be extremely interesting to find out if this is an intentional decision or just subconscious - but that seems pretty impossible, I can't find anything about it online. 193.91.181.142 22:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC) (Nick)
That would be really interesting. Mind you, I'm Scottish and speak with a rhotic accent, but I'm pretty sure I sing with a rhotic American accent too. I try to avoid singing in general as it tends to upset the people around me, but if it's in the name of phonetics... (Emma)
Anthony Newley, Syd Barrett and (early) David Bowie sung in non NAm pronunciation. PS a pedant writes Ian Curtis was from Cheshire(Macclesfield precisely)not that I'd have thought that makes any difference!
As folk songs usually written in a dialect, some of them are rhotic. "Poverty Knock", set in Lancashire, is fully rhotic. " Blackleg Miner" should be rhotic, but most of the bands that cover it hardly pay any attention to its dialect. Epa101 16:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Are there any non-rhotic regional varieties of Scottish English? Cf. Distribution of rhotic and nonrhotic accents: "Rhotic accents can be found in ... parts of Scotland". This implies that there are other parts of Scotlands, where non rhotic speech prevails. Where would that be? Unoffensive text or character 12:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the section on LETTER is confused. The X-SAMPA [@`] indicates an r-coloured vowel, which would mean a rhotic accent. E.g. the [@`] in LETTER for the fully rhotic Charlesworth (Derbyshire) speaker - [3] - indicates an r-coloured [@] just as the [a`:] or [A`:] in START for the same speaker indicates an r-coloured [a:] or [A:].
The point about Nafferton and Welwick (both East Riding) is that they only show rhoticity on the LETTER set: LETTER [@`], but START [a:] with no r-colouring.
The bit in the caption of the map seems to be right, though: the LETTER-only area in the East Riding isn't shaded.
-- JHJ 19:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
'Non-rhotic speakers pronounce "r" only if it is followed by a vowel'
That seems a little misleading. As a non-rhotic speaker of (as Michael Caine might say) 'English English' I would pronounce 'hair' and 'hare' - or 'four' and 'fore' in the same manner. I don't think I'm clevver enough to define it myself but perhaps someone else could cook up an improvement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jigsawpuzzleman ( talk • contribs) 10:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've just read the article and find that I don't understand what it is saying. The article seems to describe things in technical terms and discuss the history of the accents, yet I can't get a grip on what difference is being discussed. A few simple examples would go down well - eg a some common word or phrase and simplistic representations of how it is pronounced rhotically and non-rhotically. By Simplistic I mean use normal sltters not IPA or SAMPA or any wacky stuff. This has nothing to do with Rhoticness, but I am aware that scone can be pronounced either skown or skonn while bath can be pronounced either barth or to rhyme with math. Can someone sort out a couple of similar examples here. Cheers. -- SGBailey 21:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like some understandable examples as well, possibly even audio of native speakers? If I understood what the difference was I would be happy to record whichever I have. -- Taboo Tongue 21:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a pretty good article on an aspect of English that stares us in the face but is rarely discussed. I think the paragraphs on rhotic and non-rhotic areas of the world need cleaning up a little (perhaps expanding), and in a few instances referencing is required.
If that is done, should it be listed in the FAC room? Tony 00:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It's much better, but now it doesn't flow smoothly into the second para. Tony 22:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems odd to me that an article on accents and pronunciation, which does indeed have IPA pronunciation guides on it, does not provide the pronunciation of the word 'Rhotic' in any accent. If there's a difference between the GenAm and RP, I think they should both be there. I'd put the IPA there myself, but I've never ~heard~ it elsewhere. My friends and I, looking at the spelling are divided on whether it'd be pronounced (by Australians) to rhyme with "Boat-ick" or "Bott-ick". -- The Chairman 04:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The tags are from February, I think it's long enough.-- 91.148.159.4 23:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
In some dialects of American English, people will add an /ɹ/ to certain words through hypercorrection, the most common examples being /wɔɹʃ/, /ˈwɔɹtɚ/, /aɪˈdiɚ/ and /dɹɔɹ/ for wash, water, idea and draw. citation needed This hypercorrection also occurs in the Canadian and British English pronunciation of /ˈkɑɹki/ for khaki, although this is fading over time and many young Canadians now use the American pronunciation of /ˈkæki/. citation needed
Although some speakers of English in India are rhotic, many are not. This may have to do with where one is educated. I studied at English schools in urban India, and I, like most of my peers, am non-rhotic in my pronunciation of English words. I would say that lack of rhoticity is possibly a marker of "good" English-language education in India.
Noticed that an edit trying to add Corby to the list of rhotic areas was rejected recently.
I have never been to Corby in my life. However, I have noticed and also read about the fact that the Corby accent is more like Scottish English than English English. As Scottish accents are almost all rhotic, I would presume that Corby is rhotic. Is this correct? If so, I would have no objection to it being added to the list. Epa101 16:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Google doesn't seem to find a lot of linguistic analysis of Corby accents, and what it does find is mostly about other Scottish features than rhoticity. (Apparently some Scottish features have been lost in the younger generations, but enough have been retained that the accent still sounds Scottish to other English people.) There is this, which does explicitly mention rhoticity, but it's only one speaker.-- JHJ 16:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This article cannot be understood by anyone without a degree in linguistics.
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. — An gr 19:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
From Regional accents of English speakers:
In Western Australia, a tendency to pronounce words such as "beer" with two syllables (/biː.ə/ or "be-ah"), in cases where other Australians use one syllable (/biə/), has been noted ( Sydney Morning Herald, January 28, 2005).
Does this fit the definition of rhoticity? Grant | Talk 06:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The article shows two maps of England, one with far less rhoticity than the other. Has the decline been documented? I can't see it mentioned in the text of the article.-- PeterR 14:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Just an observation of American English accents around New York City. While many pronunciations are very similar throughout the New York City area, one main difference is in rhotic vs. non-rhotic:
- The famous Brooklyn accent is non-rhotic.
- Manhattan has too many people from all over the United States and the world to make an easy conclusion on any local pronunciation.
- The average native New Jersey speaker now speak rhotic English. (A good example is the character Randall Graves from the movie Clerks, played by Jeff Anderson.) However, it's possible in the past it was different; my grandmother, born in 1910 and having grown up in Hudson and Bergen Counties in NE New Jersey, would pronounce some words like father and water in a non-rhotic way. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Spettro9 (
talk •
contribs) 20:08, 20 August 2007
Here's a partial list in case it's any use to anyone editing the article.
tuba tuber tuna tuner rota rotor formally formerly manna manor coda coder ova over ejecta ejector lava larva father farther fought fort taught tort sought sort caught court law lore saw sore thaw Thor baa bar fa far ma mar spa spar pa par
— Alan ✉ 06:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
In the England maps the rhotic areas are red while the non-rhotic areas of the US are red. Roger ( talk) 08:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
This is indeed very unpleasant.-- 89.133.83.220 ( talk) 21:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
IMHO the US map is way too progressive. It is based on a study of which the main aim was to survey the changes which are under progress in present-day America, and it used data EXCLUSIVELY from urban areas, which are much less conservative than rural areas. The problem with this is that it misrepresents the state of non-rhoticity in Eastern New England and especially the South, because it doesn't show the fact that non-rhoticity is much commoner with older rural speakers than with those whom the study investigated. If you go to the page of The International Dialects of English Archive, for example, you can find recordings from plenty of non-rhotic or semi-rhotic (older) speakers from all over Georgia, the Carolinas and Tenessee, which is not indicated on the map. The same goes for Main and New Hampshire. So I think either another map should be made or the text under the current one should be modified to something like this:
Non-rhoticity is reccessive in the United States. The red areas are those where non-rhotic pronunciation among whites is still common in both urban and rural areas and is found even with many younger speakers. AAVE-influenced non-rhotic pronunciations may be found among African-Americans throughout the country. Map based on Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006:48) -- 89.133.83.220 ( talk) 21:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is "Arse" spelled that way in England? I've never heard one pronounce the 'r'.
72.230.10.152 ( talk) 05:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Just an aside: Is it true that in England "arse" /ɑ:s/ is the part of the body you sit on and the word "ass" /æs/ is derived from Latin asinus and denotes simply a stupid person? Unoffensive text or character ( talk) 07:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)