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This article needs a lot of work. Some sections are really confused and seem uncertain as to what the overall goal of the article is. I'll be removing some unsourced / poorly written sections. 8bitW ( talk) 22:36, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I want to make a note of this now because I would rather discuss this early on. The article is long and it will take me a lot of time to copyedit so discussing changes incrementally is probably best — I am seeing some citations in this article that may be suitable for academic papers, but are not really part of our WP:REF guidelines. Specifically Wikipedia citations are about WP:V, not about making arguments, or expanding on arguments using citation. I have converted some of these refs to footnotes, but some are really formatted like journal citations. I opted to remove one pointing to the full lists of festivals, because it did not seem essential to include it. I think it would be better to find a direct secondary source citation to the proposition in the article so it can be verified (this should not be done by comparing different lists of festivals from different sources, and the fact that one of the sources is a foreign language source is not helping matters much.) I am taking a break until the requesting editor Harizotoh9 (and any other editors) can comment on this and review the recent edits. Seraphim System ( talk) 08:34, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Ealdgyth: from what you're saying it sounds like GOCE should consider declining a copyedit. Regarding Romulus, well yes, I took out that he was credited with founding several religious institutions, because if this is mentioned it should be discussed in the article. I can decline the review, but a copy edit is supposed to have involvement from the regular editors and input from those who are familiar with the sources. It sounds like this is not ready for a copyedit, and without the involvement of any regular editors or the editor who posted the review, I think it might be better for GOCE to decline this copy edit. I'm not supposed to just do the whole thing from scratch myself, copyediting should ideally be a back and forth collaboration with regular editors who can answer questions about the sources. Johnbod is being reasonable now, when others are watching, but as the creator of Longquan Celadon, who was familiar with the hard to find sources, he should have engaged collaboration instead of yelling, name calling and abusive behavior on the talk page. The main thing that has held up progress of the article was the negative attitude. What I'm hoping for is actual collaboration ... more often it's a major DIY project. There should already be editors who are familiar with the sources and who want to be involved in a copy editing for style and structure. Yes, there was a reason I removed Beard, my own instinct which is usually correct. But no one is right 100% of the time, this isn't a game of gotcha, though I understand why that may be satisfying (not saying you are doing this Ealdgyth, and I do appreciate your points. Thank you for confirming that I removed the citation correctly, I'm aware of the issues with the article and I have also noticed the primary sourcing)—what I was recommending was sourcing the statement directly to a secondary source, if one could be found instead of the long academic argument style citation. Once I saw the significant amount of work needed, I reached out for input from others on how to proceed. But yes, I'm very much aware of the issues. And yes I was aware of the divine being also, when I changed it, though I am not confident about the sourcing in general, and I agree that it might be better to have a thorough source review before a copyedit in this situation. The main question here is whether there is agreement for a more significant copyedit then a quick scan for punctuation errors and spacing? I don't want to do this unilaterally for a very long article and then have it reverted because it a big investment of my time, with all due respect. It does not really help the situation that the editor who has posted the review is being non-responsive. Seraphim System ( talk) 20:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Haploidavey Thank you for your comments, I certainly appreciate them. I have followed up on Do ut des. I think the glossary entry is quite good. I see that the link is still included in the sacrifice section (which is the appropriate section for this.) As for the lede, I agree with above comments that the lede should be the last thing edited, it was my mistake to start there. But, the statement that "this approach to religion was practical and contractual" is not sourced in the article. (Do ut des is currently entirely unsourced). While this is a legal term, discussed even in sources like Joseph Story's commentaries, I'm concerned about the lackadaisical approach to sourcing in this article. We shouldn't say more then the sources say, for example calling it "practical" I see some interesting discussion of it in WP:RS here but I can't find any sources describing it as "practical", the closest I can find is this source [1] which describes it as "manipulative" and "corrupt" Seraphim System ( talk) 23:57, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Why was "Rome offers no native creation myth, and little mythography to explain the character of its deities, their mutual relationships or their interactions with the human world; however, Roman theology acknowledged that di immortales (immortal gods) ruled all realms of the heavens and earth. There were gods of the upper heavens, gods of the underworld and a myriad of lesser deities between." removed? This is one of the striking features of Roman religion - it's actually very unusual not to have some sort of creation myth or other myths. I'm a bit worried that massive changes are being done without any real knowledge of how Roman religion operated. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:20, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
"...(some stuff about Christ-centric worldview here) ... a complex and well-ordered theory to reflect on its beliefs and practices: theology. Yet the ancient history of religion is no field to be analyzed within the framework of standard topics[...]by the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the independent discipline of "comparative religion" or "history of religion" tried to supplant this scheme with a series of topics like gods, beliefs, temples, rituals, priests. These are helpful as appealing to common sense, but ahistorical as applied to a system...astonishing variety...various...Mithraic...Capitolia..."
So a couple of things - re, "Rome offers no" or "seems not to" - well, ok, but I would want this not only from one source before I could try to figure out how it should be included. What I've gathered so far is that a lot of the evidence is archaeological. As for the creation myth, there do seem to be some around, Mithras at the very least -As for mythography, honestly we dont know, and Im highly skeptical of any claims to greater knowledge then that (either way.) As with secondary sources, we have to be careful because some secondary are primary for their own opinions, and these we have to look at more carefully to see how widely held/cited they are in scholarship especially since the footnote is "well, we cant but sure, but for different views see" those views have to be balanced if the disoute is significant. (I mean, I think this is more essential then including a lot of details about latin terminology, for example, which this article has plenty of) Seraphim System ( talk) 03:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC) Seraphim System ( talk) 03:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Ealdgyth: I think the part of this statement about cultic aspects may be important to include. (As for creation myths, Ovid certainly does include one.) While taking a break from this I researched some of the published archaeological evidence from Britain. I see two distinct issues here - one is the Hellenization of the native Italian deities (and the later "Romanization" of local deities in the provinces), and the other is the analysis from secondary sources that Roman mythology about these deities and their cultic aspects is noticeably flat and two-dimensional. We see temples built in areas of the provinces that were sacred in local tradition, on the foundations of older temples - archaeologists believe the purpose was political/Romanization, but we dont have much in the way of written evidence about the older traditions. Scholars do think cult varied over time/location. There is archaeological evidence that Hellenization began rather early (a marble relief that archaeologists believe shows that Diana was already becoming associated with Artemis as early as the 5th century BC.) The quote above from Beard is a list of facts that scholars have interpreted in different ways (and note that "native" is in quotes. Rupke's comments also speak to this.) I dont know if you have read Dumezil, but she actually ends up critiquing him pretty strongly. For a number of reasons, I dont want to get into that dispute here (it is discussed in a separate article) and I certainly dont want to cite a statement to Beard when it is just an introduction for a subsequent analysis where she argues against Dumezil. I am not really comfortable discussing a "native Roman religion" before Hellenization because current scholarship (including Beard) seems to regard such discussions as largely speculative and misguided. I think the deities section would make more sense organized (roughly) chronologically. This again presents problems with the History section which discusses some (but not all) of these issues at the end of the article. I still think it would be best to spin out that section intact, and then merge the essential parts into this article's structure. Seraphim System ( talk) 05:45, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
If it is sourced and cited information, then it should be included. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 21:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Yet Theodosius accepted comparison with Hercules and Jupiter as a living divinity in the panegyric of Pacatus, and despite his active dismantling of Rome's traditional cults and priesthoods could commend his heirs to its overwhelmingly Hellenic senate in traditional Hellenic terms.
I pretty much guarantee 100% comprehension failure of this lofty, abstract diction at a grade eight reading level. I just approached this at a grade 18 reading level, and I only have a sketch of a hypothesis about what sentiment this sentence endeavours to impart.
For instance, just what does "it" reference here? Most viable antecedents would be "his", "her", or "their":
"Panegyric of Pacatus's overwhelmingly Hellenic senate" it is, then.
Seriously, there has to be a more direct route. — MaxEnt 22:39, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
The lede of this article currently begins "Religion in ancient Rome includes the ancestral ethnic religion of the city of Rome that the Romans used to define themselves as a people, as well as the religious practices of peoples brought under Roman rule, in so far as they became widely followed in Rome and Italy." This sentence makes me think the article is about a particular religious tradition which began in the city of Rome, spread elsewhere, and adapted and interacted with other religious traditions over time. However, I think Religion in the Roman empire, meaning all the various religious traditions practiced in the boundaries of the Roman empire, is a notable topic. Other parts of this article seem to suggest that this article includes this broader scope. Which is it? If the article is meant to be broader, then the lede should be edited accordingly. If it is beneficial to have a narrow article, then perhaps we should split this into two articles. Daask ( talk) 18:31, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Here I have reverted the removal of two paintings, of scenes relating to martyrdom. Haploidavey comments that they offer a heavily loaded POV tag, make the section of even more disproportionate length, and rather than being historical are fantastical. Personally I'd still keep them, as lush re-imaginings, dramatized and voyeuristic as they are, of a deeply squalid and vile experience. Do we have a consensus either to remove or keep? Or any other artistic re-imaginings, of better historical quality? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 17:30, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
Given the terrible treatment at Suicide#History, History of suicide, Suicide in antiquity, and Religious views on suicide, it would be helpful to have a decent place here where Roman suicide could be redirected and where those other pages could pull better treatment from. It may even fall under or alongside the bit on human sacrifice, since it was perfectly honorable in some cases for a human to choose to sacrifice themselves to preserve dignity, atone for disgrace, etc. in a way that probably informs what the Romans considered wrong and barbaric about sacrificing others. — LlywelynII 19:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
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This article needs a lot of work. Some sections are really confused and seem uncertain as to what the overall goal of the article is. I'll be removing some unsourced / poorly written sections. 8bitW ( talk) 22:36, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I want to make a note of this now because I would rather discuss this early on. The article is long and it will take me a lot of time to copyedit so discussing changes incrementally is probably best — I am seeing some citations in this article that may be suitable for academic papers, but are not really part of our WP:REF guidelines. Specifically Wikipedia citations are about WP:V, not about making arguments, or expanding on arguments using citation. I have converted some of these refs to footnotes, but some are really formatted like journal citations. I opted to remove one pointing to the full lists of festivals, because it did not seem essential to include it. I think it would be better to find a direct secondary source citation to the proposition in the article so it can be verified (this should not be done by comparing different lists of festivals from different sources, and the fact that one of the sources is a foreign language source is not helping matters much.) I am taking a break until the requesting editor Harizotoh9 (and any other editors) can comment on this and review the recent edits. Seraphim System ( talk) 08:34, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Ealdgyth: from what you're saying it sounds like GOCE should consider declining a copyedit. Regarding Romulus, well yes, I took out that he was credited with founding several religious institutions, because if this is mentioned it should be discussed in the article. I can decline the review, but a copy edit is supposed to have involvement from the regular editors and input from those who are familiar with the sources. It sounds like this is not ready for a copyedit, and without the involvement of any regular editors or the editor who posted the review, I think it might be better for GOCE to decline this copy edit. I'm not supposed to just do the whole thing from scratch myself, copyediting should ideally be a back and forth collaboration with regular editors who can answer questions about the sources. Johnbod is being reasonable now, when others are watching, but as the creator of Longquan Celadon, who was familiar with the hard to find sources, he should have engaged collaboration instead of yelling, name calling and abusive behavior on the talk page. The main thing that has held up progress of the article was the negative attitude. What I'm hoping for is actual collaboration ... more often it's a major DIY project. There should already be editors who are familiar with the sources and who want to be involved in a copy editing for style and structure. Yes, there was a reason I removed Beard, my own instinct which is usually correct. But no one is right 100% of the time, this isn't a game of gotcha, though I understand why that may be satisfying (not saying you are doing this Ealdgyth, and I do appreciate your points. Thank you for confirming that I removed the citation correctly, I'm aware of the issues with the article and I have also noticed the primary sourcing)—what I was recommending was sourcing the statement directly to a secondary source, if one could be found instead of the long academic argument style citation. Once I saw the significant amount of work needed, I reached out for input from others on how to proceed. But yes, I'm very much aware of the issues. And yes I was aware of the divine being also, when I changed it, though I am not confident about the sourcing in general, and I agree that it might be better to have a thorough source review before a copyedit in this situation. The main question here is whether there is agreement for a more significant copyedit then a quick scan for punctuation errors and spacing? I don't want to do this unilaterally for a very long article and then have it reverted because it a big investment of my time, with all due respect. It does not really help the situation that the editor who has posted the review is being non-responsive. Seraphim System ( talk) 20:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Haploidavey Thank you for your comments, I certainly appreciate them. I have followed up on Do ut des. I think the glossary entry is quite good. I see that the link is still included in the sacrifice section (which is the appropriate section for this.) As for the lede, I agree with above comments that the lede should be the last thing edited, it was my mistake to start there. But, the statement that "this approach to religion was practical and contractual" is not sourced in the article. (Do ut des is currently entirely unsourced). While this is a legal term, discussed even in sources like Joseph Story's commentaries, I'm concerned about the lackadaisical approach to sourcing in this article. We shouldn't say more then the sources say, for example calling it "practical" I see some interesting discussion of it in WP:RS here but I can't find any sources describing it as "practical", the closest I can find is this source [1] which describes it as "manipulative" and "corrupt" Seraphim System ( talk) 23:57, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Why was "Rome offers no native creation myth, and little mythography to explain the character of its deities, their mutual relationships or their interactions with the human world; however, Roman theology acknowledged that di immortales (immortal gods) ruled all realms of the heavens and earth. There were gods of the upper heavens, gods of the underworld and a myriad of lesser deities between." removed? This is one of the striking features of Roman religion - it's actually very unusual not to have some sort of creation myth or other myths. I'm a bit worried that massive changes are being done without any real knowledge of how Roman religion operated. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:20, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
"...(some stuff about Christ-centric worldview here) ... a complex and well-ordered theory to reflect on its beliefs and practices: theology. Yet the ancient history of religion is no field to be analyzed within the framework of standard topics[...]by the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the independent discipline of "comparative religion" or "history of religion" tried to supplant this scheme with a series of topics like gods, beliefs, temples, rituals, priests. These are helpful as appealing to common sense, but ahistorical as applied to a system...astonishing variety...various...Mithraic...Capitolia..."
So a couple of things - re, "Rome offers no" or "seems not to" - well, ok, but I would want this not only from one source before I could try to figure out how it should be included. What I've gathered so far is that a lot of the evidence is archaeological. As for the creation myth, there do seem to be some around, Mithras at the very least -As for mythography, honestly we dont know, and Im highly skeptical of any claims to greater knowledge then that (either way.) As with secondary sources, we have to be careful because some secondary are primary for their own opinions, and these we have to look at more carefully to see how widely held/cited they are in scholarship especially since the footnote is "well, we cant but sure, but for different views see" those views have to be balanced if the disoute is significant. (I mean, I think this is more essential then including a lot of details about latin terminology, for example, which this article has plenty of) Seraphim System ( talk) 03:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC) Seraphim System ( talk) 03:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Ealdgyth: I think the part of this statement about cultic aspects may be important to include. (As for creation myths, Ovid certainly does include one.) While taking a break from this I researched some of the published archaeological evidence from Britain. I see two distinct issues here - one is the Hellenization of the native Italian deities (and the later "Romanization" of local deities in the provinces), and the other is the analysis from secondary sources that Roman mythology about these deities and their cultic aspects is noticeably flat and two-dimensional. We see temples built in areas of the provinces that were sacred in local tradition, on the foundations of older temples - archaeologists believe the purpose was political/Romanization, but we dont have much in the way of written evidence about the older traditions. Scholars do think cult varied over time/location. There is archaeological evidence that Hellenization began rather early (a marble relief that archaeologists believe shows that Diana was already becoming associated with Artemis as early as the 5th century BC.) The quote above from Beard is a list of facts that scholars have interpreted in different ways (and note that "native" is in quotes. Rupke's comments also speak to this.) I dont know if you have read Dumezil, but she actually ends up critiquing him pretty strongly. For a number of reasons, I dont want to get into that dispute here (it is discussed in a separate article) and I certainly dont want to cite a statement to Beard when it is just an introduction for a subsequent analysis where she argues against Dumezil. I am not really comfortable discussing a "native Roman religion" before Hellenization because current scholarship (including Beard) seems to regard such discussions as largely speculative and misguided. I think the deities section would make more sense organized (roughly) chronologically. This again presents problems with the History section which discusses some (but not all) of these issues at the end of the article. I still think it would be best to spin out that section intact, and then merge the essential parts into this article's structure. Seraphim System ( talk) 05:45, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
If it is sourced and cited information, then it should be included. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 21:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Yet Theodosius accepted comparison with Hercules and Jupiter as a living divinity in the panegyric of Pacatus, and despite his active dismantling of Rome's traditional cults and priesthoods could commend his heirs to its overwhelmingly Hellenic senate in traditional Hellenic terms.
I pretty much guarantee 100% comprehension failure of this lofty, abstract diction at a grade eight reading level. I just approached this at a grade 18 reading level, and I only have a sketch of a hypothesis about what sentiment this sentence endeavours to impart.
For instance, just what does "it" reference here? Most viable antecedents would be "his", "her", or "their":
"Panegyric of Pacatus's overwhelmingly Hellenic senate" it is, then.
Seriously, there has to be a more direct route. — MaxEnt 22:39, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
The lede of this article currently begins "Religion in ancient Rome includes the ancestral ethnic religion of the city of Rome that the Romans used to define themselves as a people, as well as the religious practices of peoples brought under Roman rule, in so far as they became widely followed in Rome and Italy." This sentence makes me think the article is about a particular religious tradition which began in the city of Rome, spread elsewhere, and adapted and interacted with other religious traditions over time. However, I think Religion in the Roman empire, meaning all the various religious traditions practiced in the boundaries of the Roman empire, is a notable topic. Other parts of this article seem to suggest that this article includes this broader scope. Which is it? If the article is meant to be broader, then the lede should be edited accordingly. If it is beneficial to have a narrow article, then perhaps we should split this into two articles. Daask ( talk) 18:31, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Here I have reverted the removal of two paintings, of scenes relating to martyrdom. Haploidavey comments that they offer a heavily loaded POV tag, make the section of even more disproportionate length, and rather than being historical are fantastical. Personally I'd still keep them, as lush re-imaginings, dramatized and voyeuristic as they are, of a deeply squalid and vile experience. Do we have a consensus either to remove or keep? Or any other artistic re-imaginings, of better historical quality? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 17:30, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
Given the terrible treatment at Suicide#History, History of suicide, Suicide in antiquity, and Religious views on suicide, it would be helpful to have a decent place here where Roman suicide could be redirected and where those other pages could pull better treatment from. It may even fall under or alongside the bit on human sacrifice, since it was perfectly honorable in some cases for a human to choose to sacrifice themselves to preserve dignity, atone for disgrace, etc. in a way that probably informs what the Romans considered wrong and barbaric about sacrificing others. — LlywelynII 19:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)