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The article should explain that the opinion of the mainstream churchs about cults and new religious movements is influential in Germany. Otherwise it sounds like just an opinion of one religous group about another religious group which should be removed because irrelevant here. Andries ( talk) 06:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
To quote from an article: "Those who are concerned about the limitations of religious freedom in Germany should, therefore, consider not only the structure of the legal and political system; it is also necessary to pay attention to the cultural dimensions of society, and to the attitudes and moods that affect social action and the working of the institutions." ( http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_3_64/ai_109568884/pg_4/?tag=mantle_skin;content). The mainstream churches' opinions are politically influential for the religious history of the country. To really explain this one may start with the Thirty Years' War. Or learn about the rights of the mainline churches as statutory organizations, e. g. to give religious education at state schools. Just one example, German kids have to prepare presentations about Sekten for religion or ethics class and attending these classes is mandatory. -- Rafflesiapricei ( talk) 19:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't know how religious science views them, but public opinion and mainline churches classify those groups as Sekten rather than as Christians in Germany. For example [ Netzwerk Sektenausstieg e.V. - Dokumentation und Forum über Zeugen Jehovas, Mormonen und andere Sekten] -- Rafflesiapricei ( talk) 13:18, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't think this map is very accurate because the lines between catholicism and protestantism don't follow the borders of modern German states. For example, the state of Baden-Württemberg is roughly half predominantly catholic and half predominantly EKD protestant. I think this one is more accurate: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_religion_map_en.png -- 77.184.40.192 ( talk) 10:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
There were several estimates used on this page to detail the religious denominations in Germany, many of the sources contradicted eachother. I have updated the figures with data from the 2011 census. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdg198 ( talk • contribs) 09:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Are there any sources for the church tax figures? This would surely provide a good estimate of adherence within some church groups, and wouldnt supplement other census figures Second Quantization ( talk) 20:54, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Every state has it's own "Kirchensteuergesetz". In most law's every Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts can collect the church tax, but not every church collect them (e.g. freechurches) -- Nandus ( talk) 11:26, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Septate, could we agree on the fact that REMID and the official church data should be kept are high quality primary sources? Some others of your change seemed ok, please add them again. BR Ulrich Nillurcheier ( talk) 17:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Nillurcheier, I believe we can cite only one reference for the pie chart, either REMID or FOWID. JimRenge ( talk) 17:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I am also rather uncomfortable with using data provided by the various religious organisations. Do they all use the same methodology and are all of them free from any desire to present the most optimistic figures? I would rather we were using census data. NebY ( talk) 17:39, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
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Most statisticians are Christians and non-believers in Germany. Their data are usually correct. The treat Christian denominations as separate values, but merge the 1. religiously indifferent, 2. atheists, 3. agnostics, 4. other non-believers under one label, the label non-religious. This is pure manipulation because agnostics and atheist separately occupy a larger percentage than the 5.2% of Muslims (not all Sunnis and Shia are friendly to each other neither accept that merge). Many (but of course not all) antimetaphysical atheists are ideologically as distant to agnostics (which are open to the possibility of antimetaphysics or other inherently non logical and analyzable cosmic mechanism) as to other metaphysicalists. This is Wikipedia and not a German statistical office. Correct data if manipulated lead to wrong conclusions, and in the case of Germany to deaths, because they don't try to understand the citizen but to simplify and manipulate him/her because they believe "simple is better". "Not to care" isn't better and it doesn't seem functional either with so many deaths.
Please notice that Atheists and Christians claim they are different, but statistically are covariants. Most neo-atheists (of no Communist background) mainly are of Protestant and secondarily of other Christian denominations, even if we examine it proportionally. This "correct but manipulated" selection of the religious components, unwittingly acts as another brickwall (and not as many separate bricks) against Muslims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4102:3800:281D:B91:C29E:E51D ( talk) 04:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
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Most of the statistics contained in the lists of Christian churches are about two decades old (Adherents.com is a database which is mostly not updated, and the sources of the website itself are not immediately verifiable). So, this version which had the major Christian groups with the data from the EKD 2016 report was better.-- 62.211.21.90 ( talk) 22:10, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
In addition to Politbarometer, I think there are also the yearly-updated church membership data for each state.-- Wddan ( talk) 18:28, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I reverted to last consensus version, not saying that all changes in detail are wrong. However major changes should be discussed first on this page. The German situation differs from the rest of the world (excl. Austria) that there are precise membership data of the major religious bodies, which can be reported directly. In addition there are many sources of census, survey and other data. Here are some, I know including a priority proposal from my side: Prio 1:
Prio 2:
Prio 3:
I strongly suggest to use prio 1 data where available and add prio 2 and 3 to fill the gaps. It might also be ok to list survey data in an extra table somewhere in a statistics chapter. BR Ulrich -- Nillurcheier ( talk) 07:35, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
References
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The atheists and the non religious are separate groups. If you merge different opinions you can create a fake mega-opinion. The atheist doesn't believe in god. The non religious (if it was presented as a separate entry, not as it is) either doesn't care, or hasn't thought about it. Of course I know that now you've merged all non religious people without respect. I can merge Christians and Muslims as Unatheists. Distorted statistics generates pseudo-megagroups which serve political purposes and do not respect the people. Some politicians support the unaware mild atheism for social cohesion and try to hide the conscious atheism.
The study in 2012 cited was unable to find a single person under 28 in Eastern Germany who believes in God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.71.210.138 ( talk) 21:44, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
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A Roman Catholic is way closer metaphysically to a Protestant than a conscious atheist to an irreligious (not to care, or not to follow a religion).
Atheism and Irreligion are different forms of Nontheism.
You gerrymander the data, simply to present that atheists fight against divided Christians.
You don't care about the Germans and their opinion.
Usually Richard Dawkins merges all nontheists to present a bigger number, while usually interpreting them as atheists - thus merging hyponyms as a hypernym, but titling them under his favorite hyponym. Even Richard Dawkins doesn't do that all the time. In big texts he's analytical and avoids mergers.
You might claim that I'm a Heretical Hebrew (=Christian) who believes that ancient Israelites knew better neuroscience than us, but no. I am not a moron (=an egotistical being not aware of the absolute nature of death).
Merging nontheists in order to present a bigger number (as atheists statisticians love to gerrymander) harms the nontheistic spectrum.
Nontheism is based on analytical thought, not in mergers.
Also we must treat the same way the orders of hyponymy (same leveled tiers of hyponymification).
You have the excuse for not being analytical, if a group is under 2%. Here you've no excuse!
You analyzed theists, and the subgroup of Christians, but you've merged all nontheists.
The subgroup of Christians is two tiers down (theism or religion > Christianity > Christian Denominations) more fragmented than the hypergroup of nontheists, so what is presented is pure political filth.
Read ways to present statistical data [3]
_____
You might claim that: "I've copied an old survey others conducted".
These others aren't blind.
Leave it there so they will correct their political gerrymanderism.
Surveys do get updated.
Also you dubbed the survey Statistical Data of Religion/ Theism which is a subgroup of Worldview/ Metaphysics.
You've used the excuse others commit the same mistake.
You kiddo have to know that in maths and statistics, you must batch and fragment logically correctly, and what the masses do is irrelevant.
I maths if we erroneously group and fragment, we are wrong. Being perceived as cute by the masses is absolutely irrelevant! Be the first one to be correct, and even die for it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8490:3400:608A:BDA2:6DF7:A815 ( talk) 09:39, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
If someone can find and collect the official data published from 1990 onwards (surely those for the 2000s can be found in archived versions of the article) we could add a Template:Line chart (already present in other articles, including religion in the Netherlands, religion in Switzerland and religion in Iceland). It would be an interesting addition to show the trends of religions in Germany throughout the decades.-- Wddan ( talk) 16:53, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
10. The 1999-2001 WVS includes the question: "Apart from weddings, funerals and christenings, about how often did you attend religious services when you were twelve years old?" By matching respondent's age to the answer to this question and drawing the reasonable inference that 12-year-old children usually attend religious services accompanied by their parents, retrospective religious attendance on five-year intervals can be calculated. Because Germans are long-lived and there are enough respondents in each five-year cohort, one can estimate religious participation since the mid 1920s. For discussion of this technique, see Iannaccone (2002). While social-desirability effects have apparently upwardly biased reported church attendance in the U.S. surveys, it is not at all clear that the same effect would be present in Germany (page 419)
I am concerned by the glaring omission of Nazism in this section. I have now edited the section for the second time and hope that we can work to make sure this remains in the article.
Marclubitz1 ( talk) 14:03, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
The table of religion by state should be remade with the 2011 census data or (better) the latest church data, rather than the 2016 Politbarometer, which counted just the adult population entitled to vote.-- Wddan ( talk) 14:26, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Based on WP:NOTSTATSBOOK and WP:NOTMANUAL, I think that it is excessive and unencyclopedic to specify, in the main text body of the article, the consistency of the sample of any survey and the questions which were asked to the sampled people (see this case). I am not saying that these are not important things, but the main text body should show just the outcomes of the survey, and the methodology should be explained (if the explanation has some relevance) in the reference or in a footnote.-- Wddan ( talk) 16:08, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
I just refashioned the table of the data from censuses in the same style of those found in other articles of the same series. Compared to the old version, however, I have left out the data from the 1939 census of Nazi Germany, since the latter covered a larger expanse of land and many non-German populations compared to the foregoing and following German states (10 million more people compared to the census of the Weimar Republic in the same year). I would like to know if this was the right thing to do, especially from users with deep knowledge of German history.-- Wddan ( talk) 19:25, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
This claim against me is false: "along the unexplained edits you made, you remove things you don't like" [sic].
The content was removed by FrankCesco26 himself in the previous edit.
The edit is also not consistent with FrankCesco26's behaviour in other articles, in which he has insisted for the removal of pie charts representing minor surveys ( religion in France, religion in the United Kingdom: "or we add a chart for every survey or remove them all. we can't add charts for every survey we find in the internet" [sic]).
There is a glaring, recurring non-neutral pattern in this editing behaviour.-- Wddan ( talk) 12:01, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
The fact you mimicked a popular mistake, doesn't constitute it correct taxonomically/set-theoretically/ordonymically ===
Mathematical mistakes/set theory mistakes are not subjected to prevalent mistake establishment practice.
Mathematical mistakes/set theory mistakes do occur and are corrected when perceived.
Not all others are necessarily atheists or theists, so even if we accept to define unprofessionally (because it is not standardized) atheism as a religion, we cannot guarantee that all others are atheists and theists.
What is the point to title a "metaphysical worldview" survey with the noun "Religions" when as a statistician you don't want to push towards one possible subgroup/hyponym, instead you want to record facts about a generic hypernym with all its spectrum of possible outcomes?
Metaphysics and
worldviews aren't necessarily supernatural.
It should be noted that the main data used in the article, the official church membership data of the catholic church and the evangelical church, may be an underestimation of the actual number of believers of such churches due to the church tax which corresponds to the 8% (in baden wuerttenberg) and 9% (in all the other laender) and is deducted from the wage of members. (information: https://liveworkgermany.com/2017/11/what-is-german-church-tax-and-how-do-i-avoid-paying-it/)
According to a survey based on 56.953 persons who left the churches in 2018, 44.2% did so in order to avoid paying the additional tax, while 34.4% were dissatisfied with the church instutions/officials while only the 16.4% did so because it didn't believed in God anymore. Source ( https://www.kirchenaustritt.de/umfrageergebnis).
This is why most recent surveys show completely different data when compared to the official church data, and ususally show higher proportions of catholics and protestants. The actual percentage of the catholics and the protestants is at ~30% each, while the proportion of irreligious people is at ~30-34% according to four recent sources I posted in the table I added in recent changes to the page.
The next 2021 Census will not include a question on the religious affiliation as opposed to the last census, but even comparing the 2011 census data with the 2011 church membership data there is a downward bias:
Sources (self-identified religion in the 2011 census: https://ergebnisse.zensus2011.de/?locale=en#dynTable:statUnit=PERSON;absRel=ANZAHL;ags=00;agsAxis=X;yAxis=RELIGION_AUSF)
(church count for 2011: https://ergebnisse.zensus2011.de/?locale=en#dynTable:statUnit=PERSON;absRel=ANZAHL;ags=00;agsAxis=X;yAxis=RELIGION_KURZ)
Therefore the article should be cautious whether to use official church figures or not because they may be severally underrepresenting the actual number of catholics and lutherans in the country. I would suggest using the REMID and FOWID for the estimates of minority religions and some statistically reliable source for the percentage of Catholics and Protestants such as the German General Social Survey (which has recently released data for the yeat 2018) or specify that the actual church count may be an underestimation and the percentage of not religious people in the stats and the pie chart are actually "people who are not officially affiliated to any religious institution".
@ Nillurcheier:, as a frequent contributor to this page and other religious demography pages, how can this page be improved to fix this problem regarding the underrepresentation of catholcs and protestants in official church data? Do you have any fix proposal?
Of course anyone else who can provide an unbiased opinion is welcome to the discussion. FrankCesco26 ( talk) 22:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Please stop changing the figure in the second paragraph. It's been bouncing around between 56% and 67% for the past month, and we can't have that!
My suggestion is that the phrase "identifies as Christian" is too vague and overly simplistic. "Responded to a census question" or "are registered members of a church", etc., are more concrete. Also, if there are two strong sources that differ significantly, it's not allowed to pick a number halfway in-between. That's WP:SYNTHESIS.
Please discuss and agree on which sources will be cited, and on a more precise description of what the sources say. It may be ok to say, for example, "estimates range from X to Y", or "according to Reliable Authority X, it's Z", but a number that is reached by haggling amongst Wikipedia editors is not acceptable. Thanks... -- IamNotU ( talk) 18:33, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that we can come closer to reality. -- Nillurcheier ( talk) 13:59, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Source 1=3 FOWID saays: 51% membership of EKD and catholic church, 54% christians Source 4 globalreligious futures says 66% christians. However this is a very poor glassballing source, which should be removed Source 5 EKD19 says: 55% Christians
If your issue is the word "identify themselves" we had to go into Eurobarometer, which covers this nicely. Nillurcheier ( talk) 09:08, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
From the article [see chart on the right]:
That chart isn't supported by the source. The source has:
That gives:
Even when adding 3,5 muslims + 0,8 alevites to 4,3 muslimoids, it's far from 5. --15:53, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
References
BAMF
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The different irreligious beliefs: atheist, agnostic, metaphysically indifferent shouldn't be merged if you don't merge the theisms.
Richard Dawkins wants to present that religions are the enemy, and different nontheistic opinions should politically unite against supernaturalism.
Neil deGrasse Tyson erroneously claims that etymology is tautological/ identical to definition, and that agnosticism means I don't know, but I am not open to violations of physical laws. Neil deGrasse Tyson's definition of agnosticism is an oratorical trick. Mean agnosticism is openness to the violation of reason and to science, including Neil deGrasse Tyson's field of study. Not all nontheists have the exact same opinion.
Many Germans are disrespectful towards metaphysical worldviews. They falsely claim that the army uses the Iron Cross which is the map of Prussia and not the symbol of Jesus. The Iron Cross isn't a secular symbol. The map of Prussia had a different shape.
This page used to contain church tax data per year for the various denominations, especially Catholics and Protestants, many years ago. Now they seem gone. What is the reason? 80.116.143.110 ( talk) 13:51, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
It is lying by omission to exclude non-religious from the first line, since they are a far greater number than eiher Christian group. Something like 'Nearly all Germans are either non-religious or Christian (Catholic or Protestant), according to recent polling.' 178.139.171.177 ( talk) 07:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
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The article should explain that the opinion of the mainstream churchs about cults and new religious movements is influential in Germany. Otherwise it sounds like just an opinion of one religous group about another religious group which should be removed because irrelevant here. Andries ( talk) 06:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
To quote from an article: "Those who are concerned about the limitations of religious freedom in Germany should, therefore, consider not only the structure of the legal and political system; it is also necessary to pay attention to the cultural dimensions of society, and to the attitudes and moods that affect social action and the working of the institutions." ( http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_3_64/ai_109568884/pg_4/?tag=mantle_skin;content). The mainstream churches' opinions are politically influential for the religious history of the country. To really explain this one may start with the Thirty Years' War. Or learn about the rights of the mainline churches as statutory organizations, e. g. to give religious education at state schools. Just one example, German kids have to prepare presentations about Sekten for religion or ethics class and attending these classes is mandatory. -- Rafflesiapricei ( talk) 19:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't know how religious science views them, but public opinion and mainline churches classify those groups as Sekten rather than as Christians in Germany. For example [ Netzwerk Sektenausstieg e.V. - Dokumentation und Forum über Zeugen Jehovas, Mormonen und andere Sekten] -- Rafflesiapricei ( talk) 13:18, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't think this map is very accurate because the lines between catholicism and protestantism don't follow the borders of modern German states. For example, the state of Baden-Württemberg is roughly half predominantly catholic and half predominantly EKD protestant. I think this one is more accurate: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_religion_map_en.png -- 77.184.40.192 ( talk) 10:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
There were several estimates used on this page to detail the religious denominations in Germany, many of the sources contradicted eachother. I have updated the figures with data from the 2011 census. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdg198 ( talk • contribs) 09:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Are there any sources for the church tax figures? This would surely provide a good estimate of adherence within some church groups, and wouldnt supplement other census figures Second Quantization ( talk) 20:54, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Every state has it's own "Kirchensteuergesetz". In most law's every Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts can collect the church tax, but not every church collect them (e.g. freechurches) -- Nandus ( talk) 11:26, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Septate, could we agree on the fact that REMID and the official church data should be kept are high quality primary sources? Some others of your change seemed ok, please add them again. BR Ulrich Nillurcheier ( talk) 17:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Nillurcheier, I believe we can cite only one reference for the pie chart, either REMID or FOWID. JimRenge ( talk) 17:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I am also rather uncomfortable with using data provided by the various religious organisations. Do they all use the same methodology and are all of them free from any desire to present the most optimistic figures? I would rather we were using census data. NebY ( talk) 17:39, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
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Most statisticians are Christians and non-believers in Germany. Their data are usually correct. The treat Christian denominations as separate values, but merge the 1. religiously indifferent, 2. atheists, 3. agnostics, 4. other non-believers under one label, the label non-religious. This is pure manipulation because agnostics and atheist separately occupy a larger percentage than the 5.2% of Muslims (not all Sunnis and Shia are friendly to each other neither accept that merge). Many (but of course not all) antimetaphysical atheists are ideologically as distant to agnostics (which are open to the possibility of antimetaphysics or other inherently non logical and analyzable cosmic mechanism) as to other metaphysicalists. This is Wikipedia and not a German statistical office. Correct data if manipulated lead to wrong conclusions, and in the case of Germany to deaths, because they don't try to understand the citizen but to simplify and manipulate him/her because they believe "simple is better". "Not to care" isn't better and it doesn't seem functional either with so many deaths.
Please notice that Atheists and Christians claim they are different, but statistically are covariants. Most neo-atheists (of no Communist background) mainly are of Protestant and secondarily of other Christian denominations, even if we examine it proportionally. This "correct but manipulated" selection of the religious components, unwittingly acts as another brickwall (and not as many separate bricks) against Muslims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4102:3800:281D:B91:C29E:E51D ( talk) 04:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
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Most of the statistics contained in the lists of Christian churches are about two decades old (Adherents.com is a database which is mostly not updated, and the sources of the website itself are not immediately verifiable). So, this version which had the major Christian groups with the data from the EKD 2016 report was better.-- 62.211.21.90 ( talk) 22:10, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
In addition to Politbarometer, I think there are also the yearly-updated church membership data for each state.-- Wddan ( talk) 18:28, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I reverted to last consensus version, not saying that all changes in detail are wrong. However major changes should be discussed first on this page. The German situation differs from the rest of the world (excl. Austria) that there are precise membership data of the major religious bodies, which can be reported directly. In addition there are many sources of census, survey and other data. Here are some, I know including a priority proposal from my side: Prio 1:
Prio 2:
Prio 3:
I strongly suggest to use prio 1 data where available and add prio 2 and 3 to fill the gaps. It might also be ok to list survey data in an extra table somewhere in a statistics chapter. BR Ulrich -- Nillurcheier ( talk) 07:35, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |trans_title=
ignored (|trans-title=
suggested) (
help)
The atheists and the non religious are separate groups. If you merge different opinions you can create a fake mega-opinion. The atheist doesn't believe in god. The non religious (if it was presented as a separate entry, not as it is) either doesn't care, or hasn't thought about it. Of course I know that now you've merged all non religious people without respect. I can merge Christians and Muslims as Unatheists. Distorted statistics generates pseudo-megagroups which serve political purposes and do not respect the people. Some politicians support the unaware mild atheism for social cohesion and try to hide the conscious atheism.
The study in 2012 cited was unable to find a single person under 28 in Eastern Germany who believes in God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.71.210.138 ( talk) 21:44, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
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A Roman Catholic is way closer metaphysically to a Protestant than a conscious atheist to an irreligious (not to care, or not to follow a religion).
Atheism and Irreligion are different forms of Nontheism.
You gerrymander the data, simply to present that atheists fight against divided Christians.
You don't care about the Germans and their opinion.
Usually Richard Dawkins merges all nontheists to present a bigger number, while usually interpreting them as atheists - thus merging hyponyms as a hypernym, but titling them under his favorite hyponym. Even Richard Dawkins doesn't do that all the time. In big texts he's analytical and avoids mergers.
You might claim that I'm a Heretical Hebrew (=Christian) who believes that ancient Israelites knew better neuroscience than us, but no. I am not a moron (=an egotistical being not aware of the absolute nature of death).
Merging nontheists in order to present a bigger number (as atheists statisticians love to gerrymander) harms the nontheistic spectrum.
Nontheism is based on analytical thought, not in mergers.
Also we must treat the same way the orders of hyponymy (same leveled tiers of hyponymification).
You have the excuse for not being analytical, if a group is under 2%. Here you've no excuse!
You analyzed theists, and the subgroup of Christians, but you've merged all nontheists.
The subgroup of Christians is two tiers down (theism or religion > Christianity > Christian Denominations) more fragmented than the hypergroup of nontheists, so what is presented is pure political filth.
Read ways to present statistical data [3]
_____
You might claim that: "I've copied an old survey others conducted".
These others aren't blind.
Leave it there so they will correct their political gerrymanderism.
Surveys do get updated.
Also you dubbed the survey Statistical Data of Religion/ Theism which is a subgroup of Worldview/ Metaphysics.
You've used the excuse others commit the same mistake.
You kiddo have to know that in maths and statistics, you must batch and fragment logically correctly, and what the masses do is irrelevant.
I maths if we erroneously group and fragment, we are wrong. Being perceived as cute by the masses is absolutely irrelevant! Be the first one to be correct, and even die for it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8490:3400:608A:BDA2:6DF7:A815 ( talk) 09:39, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
If someone can find and collect the official data published from 1990 onwards (surely those for the 2000s can be found in archived versions of the article) we could add a Template:Line chart (already present in other articles, including religion in the Netherlands, religion in Switzerland and religion in Iceland). It would be an interesting addition to show the trends of religions in Germany throughout the decades.-- Wddan ( talk) 16:53, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
10. The 1999-2001 WVS includes the question: "Apart from weddings, funerals and christenings, about how often did you attend religious services when you were twelve years old?" By matching respondent's age to the answer to this question and drawing the reasonable inference that 12-year-old children usually attend religious services accompanied by their parents, retrospective religious attendance on five-year intervals can be calculated. Because Germans are long-lived and there are enough respondents in each five-year cohort, one can estimate religious participation since the mid 1920s. For discussion of this technique, see Iannaccone (2002). While social-desirability effects have apparently upwardly biased reported church attendance in the U.S. surveys, it is not at all clear that the same effect would be present in Germany (page 419)
I am concerned by the glaring omission of Nazism in this section. I have now edited the section for the second time and hope that we can work to make sure this remains in the article.
Marclubitz1 ( talk) 14:03, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
The table of religion by state should be remade with the 2011 census data or (better) the latest church data, rather than the 2016 Politbarometer, which counted just the adult population entitled to vote.-- Wddan ( talk) 14:26, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Based on WP:NOTSTATSBOOK and WP:NOTMANUAL, I think that it is excessive and unencyclopedic to specify, in the main text body of the article, the consistency of the sample of any survey and the questions which were asked to the sampled people (see this case). I am not saying that these are not important things, but the main text body should show just the outcomes of the survey, and the methodology should be explained (if the explanation has some relevance) in the reference or in a footnote.-- Wddan ( talk) 16:08, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
I just refashioned the table of the data from censuses in the same style of those found in other articles of the same series. Compared to the old version, however, I have left out the data from the 1939 census of Nazi Germany, since the latter covered a larger expanse of land and many non-German populations compared to the foregoing and following German states (10 million more people compared to the census of the Weimar Republic in the same year). I would like to know if this was the right thing to do, especially from users with deep knowledge of German history.-- Wddan ( talk) 19:25, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
This claim against me is false: "along the unexplained edits you made, you remove things you don't like" [sic].
The content was removed by FrankCesco26 himself in the previous edit.
The edit is also not consistent with FrankCesco26's behaviour in other articles, in which he has insisted for the removal of pie charts representing minor surveys ( religion in France, religion in the United Kingdom: "or we add a chart for every survey or remove them all. we can't add charts for every survey we find in the internet" [sic]).
There is a glaring, recurring non-neutral pattern in this editing behaviour.-- Wddan ( talk) 12:01, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
The fact you mimicked a popular mistake, doesn't constitute it correct taxonomically/set-theoretically/ordonymically ===
Mathematical mistakes/set theory mistakes are not subjected to prevalent mistake establishment practice.
Mathematical mistakes/set theory mistakes do occur and are corrected when perceived.
Not all others are necessarily atheists or theists, so even if we accept to define unprofessionally (because it is not standardized) atheism as a religion, we cannot guarantee that all others are atheists and theists.
What is the point to title a "metaphysical worldview" survey with the noun "Religions" when as a statistician you don't want to push towards one possible subgroup/hyponym, instead you want to record facts about a generic hypernym with all its spectrum of possible outcomes?
Metaphysics and
worldviews aren't necessarily supernatural.
It should be noted that the main data used in the article, the official church membership data of the catholic church and the evangelical church, may be an underestimation of the actual number of believers of such churches due to the church tax which corresponds to the 8% (in baden wuerttenberg) and 9% (in all the other laender) and is deducted from the wage of members. (information: https://liveworkgermany.com/2017/11/what-is-german-church-tax-and-how-do-i-avoid-paying-it/)
According to a survey based on 56.953 persons who left the churches in 2018, 44.2% did so in order to avoid paying the additional tax, while 34.4% were dissatisfied with the church instutions/officials while only the 16.4% did so because it didn't believed in God anymore. Source ( https://www.kirchenaustritt.de/umfrageergebnis).
This is why most recent surveys show completely different data when compared to the official church data, and ususally show higher proportions of catholics and protestants. The actual percentage of the catholics and the protestants is at ~30% each, while the proportion of irreligious people is at ~30-34% according to four recent sources I posted in the table I added in recent changes to the page.
The next 2021 Census will not include a question on the religious affiliation as opposed to the last census, but even comparing the 2011 census data with the 2011 church membership data there is a downward bias:
Sources (self-identified religion in the 2011 census: https://ergebnisse.zensus2011.de/?locale=en#dynTable:statUnit=PERSON;absRel=ANZAHL;ags=00;agsAxis=X;yAxis=RELIGION_AUSF)
(church count for 2011: https://ergebnisse.zensus2011.de/?locale=en#dynTable:statUnit=PERSON;absRel=ANZAHL;ags=00;agsAxis=X;yAxis=RELIGION_KURZ)
Therefore the article should be cautious whether to use official church figures or not because they may be severally underrepresenting the actual number of catholics and lutherans in the country. I would suggest using the REMID and FOWID for the estimates of minority religions and some statistically reliable source for the percentage of Catholics and Protestants such as the German General Social Survey (which has recently released data for the yeat 2018) or specify that the actual church count may be an underestimation and the percentage of not religious people in the stats and the pie chart are actually "people who are not officially affiliated to any religious institution".
@ Nillurcheier:, as a frequent contributor to this page and other religious demography pages, how can this page be improved to fix this problem regarding the underrepresentation of catholcs and protestants in official church data? Do you have any fix proposal?
Of course anyone else who can provide an unbiased opinion is welcome to the discussion. FrankCesco26 ( talk) 22:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Please stop changing the figure in the second paragraph. It's been bouncing around between 56% and 67% for the past month, and we can't have that!
My suggestion is that the phrase "identifies as Christian" is too vague and overly simplistic. "Responded to a census question" or "are registered members of a church", etc., are more concrete. Also, if there are two strong sources that differ significantly, it's not allowed to pick a number halfway in-between. That's WP:SYNTHESIS.
Please discuss and agree on which sources will be cited, and on a more precise description of what the sources say. It may be ok to say, for example, "estimates range from X to Y", or "according to Reliable Authority X, it's Z", but a number that is reached by haggling amongst Wikipedia editors is not acceptable. Thanks... -- IamNotU ( talk) 18:33, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that we can come closer to reality. -- Nillurcheier ( talk) 13:59, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Source 1=3 FOWID saays: 51% membership of EKD and catholic church, 54% christians Source 4 globalreligious futures says 66% christians. However this is a very poor glassballing source, which should be removed Source 5 EKD19 says: 55% Christians
If your issue is the word "identify themselves" we had to go into Eurobarometer, which covers this nicely. Nillurcheier ( talk) 09:08, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
From the article [see chart on the right]:
That chart isn't supported by the source. The source has:
That gives:
Even when adding 3,5 muslims + 0,8 alevites to 4,3 muslimoids, it's far from 5. --15:53, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
References
BAMF
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The different irreligious beliefs: atheist, agnostic, metaphysically indifferent shouldn't be merged if you don't merge the theisms.
Richard Dawkins wants to present that religions are the enemy, and different nontheistic opinions should politically unite against supernaturalism.
Neil deGrasse Tyson erroneously claims that etymology is tautological/ identical to definition, and that agnosticism means I don't know, but I am not open to violations of physical laws. Neil deGrasse Tyson's definition of agnosticism is an oratorical trick. Mean agnosticism is openness to the violation of reason and to science, including Neil deGrasse Tyson's field of study. Not all nontheists have the exact same opinion.
Many Germans are disrespectful towards metaphysical worldviews. They falsely claim that the army uses the Iron Cross which is the map of Prussia and not the symbol of Jesus. The Iron Cross isn't a secular symbol. The map of Prussia had a different shape.
This page used to contain church tax data per year for the various denominations, especially Catholics and Protestants, many years ago. Now they seem gone. What is the reason? 80.116.143.110 ( talk) 13:51, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
It is lying by omission to exclude non-religious from the first line, since they are a far greater number than eiher Christian group. Something like 'Nearly all Germans are either non-religious or Christian (Catholic or Protestant), according to recent polling.' 178.139.171.177 ( talk) 07:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)