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The article is dedicated to the Reformation not to Reformation in indivdual countries or territories. I doubt that the article should present the details of the Reformation movement in each country. Of course, relevant events of the history of the Reformation of individual countries could be presented but only within the wider framework. Consequently, much of the present subsections are unnecessary. Borsoka ( talk) 09:42, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I was thinking a very similar structure. The main difference that I do not like orphan sub-sections. :) Borsoka ( talk) 01:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
it about how other religions give birth 102.132.142.88 ( talk) 15:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Apologies for the length! At the risk of starting some flame war, can I take issue with the sentence "Based on Christ's parable on the Last Judgement, the Catholic Church taught that the performance of good works, such as feeding the hungry and visiting the sick, was a precondition of salvation." I think this is a misrepresentation.
A good guide for what the Church taught at that time is Aquinas, yes? His teaching on what it takes for the "ungodly" to be "justified" (i.e. an initial conversion or repentence after backsliding) has no mention of any kind of acts or works or charity: The entire justification of the ungodly consists as to its origin in the infusion of grace. For it is by grace that free-will is moved and sin is remitted.(Summa Theo, Part II.I, Question 113. The effects of grace, Art7.) (IIUC, this is what Trent called "Actual Grace" or "prevenient grace", associated with a moment or a change) God offers this "first grace", then you make a freewill move towards God, then a move away from sin, then the remission of sin, is Aquinas' logical order.
However, when it comes to justified and unbackslidden Christians (i.e. baptized and converted in whatever order, and sticking to the path), which Aquinas treats as the default case, he talks about "sanctifying grace" [1] which is a state (of living increasingly in grace) rather than a moment.
Where good works also come in relate to happiness: "happiness is the reward for works of virtue" done with charity a.k.a. "merits", as judged by God's loving nature, and caused by the Holy Spirit [2]. Merits have no part in first grace [3] but they amplify the reception of sanctifying grace subsequently by a feedback mechanism: I think the idea is that the more Christians open themselves up to God by charity, the more he fills them.
So the article could say that good works are a post-condition of justification, but for Aquinas they are not a pre-condition for justification or sanctification: grace comes first, based on the merits of Christ not us. So I don't think it is right that medieval Catholic doctrine was that works were "a pre-condition for salvation": I mean, if it were, wouldn't that rule out death-bed converts?
Can that sentence be adjusted or removed, as it seems to perpetuate a myth (or a garbled truth), please?
B.t.w., Luther's argument (against Erasmus' On Free Will) was not that Catholics required good works as a pre-condition for salvation, but that people who gave even the smallest role to free will were still slaves to the Law and not in grace. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 15:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I think the phrase did not suggest that grace and faith were not necessary as it did not contain a statement about them. My concern is that we cannot present medieval Catholic theology based on medieval Catholic theologians' works as per WP:Primary. Borsoka ( talk) 02:14, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
The text has reverted to "Latin was the language of public worship in most dioceses of Catholic Europe[note 6] although few laymen understood it." I think this is misleading and a non-sequitur: most medieval people had a smattering of Latin, as they encountered it in their daily lives (through the liturgy, prayer books, law, administration, manuals, signs, labels, accounts, schooling, doctors, etc.) and most everyone knew the Latin of the main public prayers of the mass.
Being able to speak and read a language fluently (which few could, or still can, for Latin) is different from being able to understand things you have learned in it: few people speak French but many people understand the words to the first lines of Frère_Jacques; few lawyers understand Latin sentences but they all know res ipsa loquitur and mens rea etc.; if you hear young educated Indians speak, they often pepper their native language with learnt English sentences or sayings, this being elegant or smart: they certainly "understand" those English fragments. When we watch a foreign movie with subtitles, just because we don't understand the language does not mean we do not understand the movie: we have another source of comprehension than our ears.
One of the responsibilities of the godparent was to teach the public prayers of the liturgy: when properly catechized people said the pater noster or the creed, they understood it. Everyone was supposed to understand the public prayers of the liturgy they would have to say. (Sure, the details of what the priest said was not important (or secret), but the readings were supposed to be explained in the vernacular in the homily, and many boys went to choir school to learn to sound out and hopefully understand the Psalms.)
Some other info:
"although few laymen understood it."We shouldn't say the contrary unless there is a reliable source for it. @ Rick Jelliffe seems to be saying that most people knew the "gist" of what was said in the Latin liturgy and prayers because they were told the meaning in English and were familiar enough with the liturgy by virtue of lifelong repetition. Fair enough. But that is different from being able to understand Latin as a language. And you would still need a reliable source to make either claim. Ltwin ( talk) 22:42, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
The current article says "The Brethren of the Common Life opposed their members' priestly ordination" which seems utterly unlikey to me: there is a big difference between not pushing and opposing...I don't have the book cited, could someone check the reference to confirm that is actually what it claims? I thought the reverse was true, that the Brethren tried to shovel their promising students into Augustinian canonries (like Erasmus) or monastaries (like Luther.) The book The Modern Devotion [7] says that Brotherhouses that could not attract rectors or priests actually failed. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 14:50, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
There is currently a strange sentence: "The canons of the Cologne Cathedral requested Gropper to write a critical response to it,[262] and achieved Hermann's deposition at the Roman Curia"
I don't understand the last clause: what does it mean to achieve a deposition? Is the word "archived" meant instead? Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 03:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
I have reinstated the text that says purgatory is a transition state between this life and heaven, from the incorrect text that says it is an intermediate state between heaven and hell. I have put four academic citations as justification: if more are desired, please let me know.
The traditional Catholic sequence here is
So purgatory is not intermediate but prior to heaven for the elect, nor does it provide a way between heaven and hell, in medieval (and modern) Catholic belief. I have added (what Denizinger provides as) the specific wording from the Second Council of Lyon 1274 at Second_Council_of_Lyon#Purgatory as additional evidence.
There is a lot of mis-informed material, including even in some older academic material, that confuses purgatory and hell, or want to make them the same kind of thing, or to say that purgatory is related to salvation/justification (e.g., some backdoor way to get into heaven by works, outside grace and obedient faith in Jesus) rather than relating to sanctification/purgation/refining. Because of this, Wikipedia articles need to be extra careful not to propagate this kind of myth.
[1] Interestingly, Hildegard of Bingen teaches that purgatory is voluntary (in the sense that the participants think it is a good and necessary thing to get done, like going to the dentist perhaps ;-) ) and that the pains (of having the dross refined from the gold) are received with joy (because they remove impediments to the beatific vision).
[2] Some medieval theologians/visionaries made further distinctions like "earthly paradise" and "limbo" but they never took off. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 12:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
The current article is quite Luther-centric. The Reformed tradition of Zwingli and Calvin is scattered in pieces. Yet they were very independent of Luther: different theory of justification for example. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 17:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
I have removed a sentence that papal legate Wolsey "and the lawyer Thomas More (d. 1535) assumed the leadership of massive purges against Protestant."
1) There were 30 heretics killed in Wolsey's time as Lord Chancellor 1515-1529, and 6 in More's time 1529-1532. This makes 2 per year: both "massive" and "purge" are not the right words.
2) The trials and executions were not done "by" the Lord Chancellor, but, usually, by regional authorities, as More pointed out.
3) The "and" suggests that More was a henchman or lackey of Wolsey. This does not seem to be historical.
4) That it was not Protestantism per se that More was interested, but malicious and seditious heresy, is suggested by 1) his "my darling" exchange with Tyndale, and 2) he tolerated under his roof his Lutheran-leaning son in law, William Roper, on condition he kept any dangerous views private.
5) It is not cited. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 05:04, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
1. Purge does not only cover murders, it refers to several forms of persecution forcing people to abandon their faith. 2. The deleted sentence did not claim or imply that More executed anybody. 3. The "and" does not suggest that More was a henchman of Wolsey, because he is presented as one of the two leaders of the purges. 4. Could you refer to scholarly books making a distinction between Protestantism and "malicious and seditious heresy" when writing of More's preeminent role in the persecution of non-Catholics? 5. The sentence was verified by a reference to Cameron. Furthermore, we can hardly ignore prominent scholars who write of the massive persecution of Protestants in England and emphasize the role of More in it. Cameron writes: "England in the 1520s was perhaps most remarkable for its relatively single-minded and efficient persecution of early forms of Protestant thought. The most effective anti-Lutheran persecutor and polemic at the time was not so much the leading churchman Thomas Wolsey (d. 1530) but rather a leading lay lawyer and politician, Thomas More (d. 1535), who both actively pursued individual heretics and also wrote vast polemical tracts against them." ( Cameron, Euan (2012) [1991]. The European Reformation (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 284. ISBN 978-0-19-954785-2.) Peter Marshall also writes: "A clutch of English heretics were burned in 1530-32 as the result of a concerted campaign of repression led by Chancellor Thomas More ..." ( Marshall, Peter (2022) [2015]. "Britain's Reformations". In Marshall, Peter (ed.). The Oxford History of the Reformation. Oxford University Press. pp. 238–291 (on page 251). ISBN 978-0-19-289526-4.) Borsoka ( talk) 02:42, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
I have had a couple of reversions now by people arguing along the lines that 1) there is no difference between "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic" (also that "Roman" is old-fashioned) 2) the article only ever uses "Catholic" therefore it should be consistent so therefore 3) the word "Roman" should be removed. I think this is another one of these areas where people assume that their idiom is universal.
On these 1) Yes, "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic" are often interchangeable, and yes, people used to say "Roman Catholic" more in the past. But they do have a different meanings. First, because Roman Catholic is used in contrast to other churches in communion with Rome: the Greek Catholics, the Maronite Catholics etc. So there are indeed places where Roman Catholic is a useful distinction. It is not "old-fashioned" to be precise. Second, because it can connote loyalty to the Roman Bishop (rather than e.g. conciliarism): so it can convey an intention of the person (e.g. rather than a phrase "Erasmus kept loyal to the Romish Antichrist" it can be said with more NPOV "Erasmus stayed a Roman Catholic"). Third because all the churches that say the Creed (one, holy, catholic and apostolic church) believe themselves to be catholic, and some (e.g. high church Anglicans) may even call themselves capital-c Catholics. Fourth there is no way to tell whether "catholic" or "Catholic" is meant if the word starts a sentence: the choices may be to rewrite the sentence or to use a distinguishing adjective (e.g., ... "Roman".)
2) So the consistency argument is fallacious, where different meanings are intended. (In any case, the consistency argument is factually wrong: there are other, proper uses of "Roman Catholic" elsewhere in the article.)
The consistency needed is e.g. to use "Roman Catholic" only when the Western/Latin/Papal church in particular is meant, or to disambiguate a sentence, but "Catholic" otherwise.
Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 18:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
I have added a note on the Prône. This is has two citations, and most importantly the link to Latin_liturgical_rites#Vernacular_and_laity_in_medieval_and_Reformation-era_Latin_rites which itself has citations to six sources. After an editor added a tag questioning the context, I have moved the note to a different position which I hope is more obvious.
It would also be useful to point out that sermons were (almost always) in the vernacular too (in parishes, not monastaries), and preceded by a translation of the Gospel verse that was the subject of the homily.
The current article's text that "the language of public worship was Latin" really does only captures half the reality: certainly the ritual language of priests was Latin and they used it to get on with their business of confecting the eucharist (indeed some prayers were deliberately said to softly for the laity to hear) according to their missal; the language of the people was the vernacular (certainly with code-switches to memorized Latin prayers) and they used it to play their part. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 14:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved per the discussion below. ( non-admin closure) estar8806 ( talk) ★ 23:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Reformation → The Reformation – As this refers to a specific event, rather than the process of reforming something. GnocchiFan ( talk) 02:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
Could we rename this to "The Protestant Reformation"?
It comes up more easily on Google and it's a more common term TerryJerry19 ( talk) 13:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Reformation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Archives: 1 |
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The article is dedicated to the Reformation not to Reformation in indivdual countries or territories. I doubt that the article should present the details of the Reformation movement in each country. Of course, relevant events of the history of the Reformation of individual countries could be presented but only within the wider framework. Consequently, much of the present subsections are unnecessary. Borsoka ( talk) 09:42, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I was thinking a very similar structure. The main difference that I do not like orphan sub-sections. :) Borsoka ( talk) 01:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
it about how other religions give birth 102.132.142.88 ( talk) 15:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Apologies for the length! At the risk of starting some flame war, can I take issue with the sentence "Based on Christ's parable on the Last Judgement, the Catholic Church taught that the performance of good works, such as feeding the hungry and visiting the sick, was a precondition of salvation." I think this is a misrepresentation.
A good guide for what the Church taught at that time is Aquinas, yes? His teaching on what it takes for the "ungodly" to be "justified" (i.e. an initial conversion or repentence after backsliding) has no mention of any kind of acts or works or charity: The entire justification of the ungodly consists as to its origin in the infusion of grace. For it is by grace that free-will is moved and sin is remitted.(Summa Theo, Part II.I, Question 113. The effects of grace, Art7.) (IIUC, this is what Trent called "Actual Grace" or "prevenient grace", associated with a moment or a change) God offers this "first grace", then you make a freewill move towards God, then a move away from sin, then the remission of sin, is Aquinas' logical order.
However, when it comes to justified and unbackslidden Christians (i.e. baptized and converted in whatever order, and sticking to the path), which Aquinas treats as the default case, he talks about "sanctifying grace" [1] which is a state (of living increasingly in grace) rather than a moment.
Where good works also come in relate to happiness: "happiness is the reward for works of virtue" done with charity a.k.a. "merits", as judged by God's loving nature, and caused by the Holy Spirit [2]. Merits have no part in first grace [3] but they amplify the reception of sanctifying grace subsequently by a feedback mechanism: I think the idea is that the more Christians open themselves up to God by charity, the more he fills them.
So the article could say that good works are a post-condition of justification, but for Aquinas they are not a pre-condition for justification or sanctification: grace comes first, based on the merits of Christ not us. So I don't think it is right that medieval Catholic doctrine was that works were "a pre-condition for salvation": I mean, if it were, wouldn't that rule out death-bed converts?
Can that sentence be adjusted or removed, as it seems to perpetuate a myth (or a garbled truth), please?
B.t.w., Luther's argument (against Erasmus' On Free Will) was not that Catholics required good works as a pre-condition for salvation, but that people who gave even the smallest role to free will were still slaves to the Law and not in grace. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 15:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I think the phrase did not suggest that grace and faith were not necessary as it did not contain a statement about them. My concern is that we cannot present medieval Catholic theology based on medieval Catholic theologians' works as per WP:Primary. Borsoka ( talk) 02:14, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
The text has reverted to "Latin was the language of public worship in most dioceses of Catholic Europe[note 6] although few laymen understood it." I think this is misleading and a non-sequitur: most medieval people had a smattering of Latin, as they encountered it in their daily lives (through the liturgy, prayer books, law, administration, manuals, signs, labels, accounts, schooling, doctors, etc.) and most everyone knew the Latin of the main public prayers of the mass.
Being able to speak and read a language fluently (which few could, or still can, for Latin) is different from being able to understand things you have learned in it: few people speak French but many people understand the words to the first lines of Frère_Jacques; few lawyers understand Latin sentences but they all know res ipsa loquitur and mens rea etc.; if you hear young educated Indians speak, they often pepper their native language with learnt English sentences or sayings, this being elegant or smart: they certainly "understand" those English fragments. When we watch a foreign movie with subtitles, just because we don't understand the language does not mean we do not understand the movie: we have another source of comprehension than our ears.
One of the responsibilities of the godparent was to teach the public prayers of the liturgy: when properly catechized people said the pater noster or the creed, they understood it. Everyone was supposed to understand the public prayers of the liturgy they would have to say. (Sure, the details of what the priest said was not important (or secret), but the readings were supposed to be explained in the vernacular in the homily, and many boys went to choir school to learn to sound out and hopefully understand the Psalms.)
Some other info:
"although few laymen understood it."We shouldn't say the contrary unless there is a reliable source for it. @ Rick Jelliffe seems to be saying that most people knew the "gist" of what was said in the Latin liturgy and prayers because they were told the meaning in English and were familiar enough with the liturgy by virtue of lifelong repetition. Fair enough. But that is different from being able to understand Latin as a language. And you would still need a reliable source to make either claim. Ltwin ( talk) 22:42, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
The current article says "The Brethren of the Common Life opposed their members' priestly ordination" which seems utterly unlikey to me: there is a big difference between not pushing and opposing...I don't have the book cited, could someone check the reference to confirm that is actually what it claims? I thought the reverse was true, that the Brethren tried to shovel their promising students into Augustinian canonries (like Erasmus) or monastaries (like Luther.) The book The Modern Devotion [7] says that Brotherhouses that could not attract rectors or priests actually failed. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 14:50, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
There is currently a strange sentence: "The canons of the Cologne Cathedral requested Gropper to write a critical response to it,[262] and achieved Hermann's deposition at the Roman Curia"
I don't understand the last clause: what does it mean to achieve a deposition? Is the word "archived" meant instead? Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 03:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
I have reinstated the text that says purgatory is a transition state between this life and heaven, from the incorrect text that says it is an intermediate state between heaven and hell. I have put four academic citations as justification: if more are desired, please let me know.
The traditional Catholic sequence here is
So purgatory is not intermediate but prior to heaven for the elect, nor does it provide a way between heaven and hell, in medieval (and modern) Catholic belief. I have added (what Denizinger provides as) the specific wording from the Second Council of Lyon 1274 at Second_Council_of_Lyon#Purgatory as additional evidence.
There is a lot of mis-informed material, including even in some older academic material, that confuses purgatory and hell, or want to make them the same kind of thing, or to say that purgatory is related to salvation/justification (e.g., some backdoor way to get into heaven by works, outside grace and obedient faith in Jesus) rather than relating to sanctification/purgation/refining. Because of this, Wikipedia articles need to be extra careful not to propagate this kind of myth.
[1] Interestingly, Hildegard of Bingen teaches that purgatory is voluntary (in the sense that the participants think it is a good and necessary thing to get done, like going to the dentist perhaps ;-) ) and that the pains (of having the dross refined from the gold) are received with joy (because they remove impediments to the beatific vision).
[2] Some medieval theologians/visionaries made further distinctions like "earthly paradise" and "limbo" but they never took off. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 12:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
The current article is quite Luther-centric. The Reformed tradition of Zwingli and Calvin is scattered in pieces. Yet they were very independent of Luther: different theory of justification for example. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 17:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
I have removed a sentence that papal legate Wolsey "and the lawyer Thomas More (d. 1535) assumed the leadership of massive purges against Protestant."
1) There were 30 heretics killed in Wolsey's time as Lord Chancellor 1515-1529, and 6 in More's time 1529-1532. This makes 2 per year: both "massive" and "purge" are not the right words.
2) The trials and executions were not done "by" the Lord Chancellor, but, usually, by regional authorities, as More pointed out.
3) The "and" suggests that More was a henchman or lackey of Wolsey. This does not seem to be historical.
4) That it was not Protestantism per se that More was interested, but malicious and seditious heresy, is suggested by 1) his "my darling" exchange with Tyndale, and 2) he tolerated under his roof his Lutheran-leaning son in law, William Roper, on condition he kept any dangerous views private.
5) It is not cited. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 05:04, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
1. Purge does not only cover murders, it refers to several forms of persecution forcing people to abandon their faith. 2. The deleted sentence did not claim or imply that More executed anybody. 3. The "and" does not suggest that More was a henchman of Wolsey, because he is presented as one of the two leaders of the purges. 4. Could you refer to scholarly books making a distinction between Protestantism and "malicious and seditious heresy" when writing of More's preeminent role in the persecution of non-Catholics? 5. The sentence was verified by a reference to Cameron. Furthermore, we can hardly ignore prominent scholars who write of the massive persecution of Protestants in England and emphasize the role of More in it. Cameron writes: "England in the 1520s was perhaps most remarkable for its relatively single-minded and efficient persecution of early forms of Protestant thought. The most effective anti-Lutheran persecutor and polemic at the time was not so much the leading churchman Thomas Wolsey (d. 1530) but rather a leading lay lawyer and politician, Thomas More (d. 1535), who both actively pursued individual heretics and also wrote vast polemical tracts against them." ( Cameron, Euan (2012) [1991]. The European Reformation (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 284. ISBN 978-0-19-954785-2.) Peter Marshall also writes: "A clutch of English heretics were burned in 1530-32 as the result of a concerted campaign of repression led by Chancellor Thomas More ..." ( Marshall, Peter (2022) [2015]. "Britain's Reformations". In Marshall, Peter (ed.). The Oxford History of the Reformation. Oxford University Press. pp. 238–291 (on page 251). ISBN 978-0-19-289526-4.) Borsoka ( talk) 02:42, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
I have had a couple of reversions now by people arguing along the lines that 1) there is no difference between "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic" (also that "Roman" is old-fashioned) 2) the article only ever uses "Catholic" therefore it should be consistent so therefore 3) the word "Roman" should be removed. I think this is another one of these areas where people assume that their idiom is universal.
On these 1) Yes, "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic" are often interchangeable, and yes, people used to say "Roman Catholic" more in the past. But they do have a different meanings. First, because Roman Catholic is used in contrast to other churches in communion with Rome: the Greek Catholics, the Maronite Catholics etc. So there are indeed places where Roman Catholic is a useful distinction. It is not "old-fashioned" to be precise. Second, because it can connote loyalty to the Roman Bishop (rather than e.g. conciliarism): so it can convey an intention of the person (e.g. rather than a phrase "Erasmus kept loyal to the Romish Antichrist" it can be said with more NPOV "Erasmus stayed a Roman Catholic"). Third because all the churches that say the Creed (one, holy, catholic and apostolic church) believe themselves to be catholic, and some (e.g. high church Anglicans) may even call themselves capital-c Catholics. Fourth there is no way to tell whether "catholic" or "Catholic" is meant if the word starts a sentence: the choices may be to rewrite the sentence or to use a distinguishing adjective (e.g., ... "Roman".)
2) So the consistency argument is fallacious, where different meanings are intended. (In any case, the consistency argument is factually wrong: there are other, proper uses of "Roman Catholic" elsewhere in the article.)
The consistency needed is e.g. to use "Roman Catholic" only when the Western/Latin/Papal church in particular is meant, or to disambiguate a sentence, but "Catholic" otherwise.
Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 18:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
I have added a note on the Prône. This is has two citations, and most importantly the link to Latin_liturgical_rites#Vernacular_and_laity_in_medieval_and_Reformation-era_Latin_rites which itself has citations to six sources. After an editor added a tag questioning the context, I have moved the note to a different position which I hope is more obvious.
It would also be useful to point out that sermons were (almost always) in the vernacular too (in parishes, not monastaries), and preceded by a translation of the Gospel verse that was the subject of the homily.
The current article's text that "the language of public worship was Latin" really does only captures half the reality: certainly the ritual language of priests was Latin and they used it to get on with their business of confecting the eucharist (indeed some prayers were deliberately said to softly for the laity to hear) according to their missal; the language of the people was the vernacular (certainly with code-switches to memorized Latin prayers) and they used it to play their part. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 14:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved per the discussion below. ( non-admin closure) estar8806 ( talk) ★ 23:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Reformation → The Reformation – As this refers to a specific event, rather than the process of reforming something. GnocchiFan ( talk) 02:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
Could we rename this to "The Protestant Reformation"?
It comes up more easily on Google and it's a more common term TerryJerry19 ( talk) 13:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)