This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Raz Simone, a local rapper with an AK-47 slung from his shoulder and a pistol attached to his hip, screamed, “This is war!” into a white-and-red megaphone and instructed armed paramilitaries to guard the barricades in shifts. Later in the night, Simone was filmed allegedly assaulting multiple protestors who disobeyed his orders, informing them that he was the "police" now, sparking fears that he was becoming the de facto warlord of the autonomous zone.
— City Journal
I'm not sure the best way to incorporate this into the article. – Anne drew 01:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Grandpallama, as stated before, lets discuss this with the community and have group approval. The snopes article is reliable and demonstrates an incident that has been the cause of criticism. The video demonstrates, as stated by snopes, Raz giving a semiautomatic rifle to someone who identifies himself as 18 on a facebook live video. I dont understand why stating it was from facebook live, the individual is 18, or that it is a crime is a problem. The first two claims can be verified by Snopes and the 3rd can be demonstrated by looking at the state law source I provided. Also the state law which I provided the statute for is not my original work and therefore not original research, its just a source from the state government. Given that I recommend keeping the sentence as "He was also criticized by conservatives for handing out a firearm to an individual who claimed to be 18 years old in a Facebook live video, a crime in the state of Washington." Also the Forbes source does not demonstrate that Forbes is calling him a warlord but that other sources are so I will be reading that (I am agreeing with you Grandpallama but simply installing it as a verifiable source of the name used not that it is accurate unless there is a problem with that). Bgrus22 ( talk) 04:29, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Simone appears to give a gun to a self-identified 18-year-old); extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing. The Snopes article does not state that this has been a significant source of conservative criticism. Stating it was a crime by linking it to legal statutes is textbook WP:SYNTH, and your claim that
the state law which I provided the statute for is not my original work and therefore not original research, its just a source from the state governmentis a fundamental misunderstanding of WP:OR. We don't need the Forbes source because we have already sourced the publications calling him a warlord to...those publications. And in your original attempt to add this material, you did assert that Forbes was among the publications calling Simone a warlord. Please read WP:OR and WP:BLP, and do not reinsert this problematic wording again. Grandpallama ( talk) 04:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Grandpallama: This biography is . . . challenging. Not reverting the issues with the sources until there is consensus. They were left in place but the general article structure was revised for a short lede and chronological content.
When there are better sources availlable, it makes sense to steer clear entirely of Fox, NY Post, and Forbes contributors. Perhaps there are aspects of the Forbes article that are worth attributing. Admitedly, this subject has not been a focus of my research and my knowledge drops off beyond the CHOP (CHAZ) stories I have been reading for the main article. He clearly had some sort of presence and notoriety at CHOP that leaned towards occupation with open carry fire arms. One that rubbed some participants the wrong way (see TechCrunch). But beyond a laundry list of conservative news outlets of questionable quality covering him as a warlord, what is actually, specifically known about him and his actions?
Questions that remain: Is the Snopes livestream video different from the New.com.au video? Who took the video(s)? Open carry is legal in Washington, but if it is illegal to distribute firearms to 18 year olds as this wikipedia article currently claims (and this is documented on video) why has this not been covered by more reputable media? Cedar777 ( talk) 04:35, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
short term attention in an ongoing eventwhen that event is still developing. This is a core concept of WP:RECENT. But if it didn't have lasting impact, or significant and widespread reporting, that suggests its inclusion is probably not appropriate, particularly around a BLP. Grandpallama ( talk) 12:51, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Here are a few sources that may be worth including in the biography of the subject: Cedar777 ( talk) 18:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
2 women accuse Seattle hip-hop artist Raz Simone of abuse, coercion (NPR) Primarily
he said/she said, however the article states Campbell’s account is supported by a protection order petition; Branch’s is supported by her mother’s account, hospital records, and a statement from a roommate who said she witnessed the abuse.
.
Schazjmd
(talk)
23:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
More reporting on the allegations in the Seattle Times - this one lists 6 women . . . [1] Cedar777 ( talk) 01:25, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi. I'm here from looking over the WP:BLPN. A concern was raised about the Personal life section.
It is clearly contentious material regarding allegations of committing a crime. Reviewing WP:BLPCRIME, Raz Simone is a public figure in my judgement (from his activities related to the CHAZ).
WP:PUBLICFIGURE states the following, regarding contentious content, " If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." (emphasis mine).
Operating under the presumption that the material belongs here, I've searched for multiple sources for these allegations, or other information not specifically related to CHAZ.
DuckDuckGo Search - '"Raz Simone" abuse'. Found,
[1] - Currently cited source. Newspaper. Verifiable by my eye.
[2] - Makes allegations regarding an arrest record of a different alleged incident. WP:NYPOST, so not considering this information.
All results in the first few pages were either linking to, paraphrasing, or discussing [1], so I didn't consider them.
DuckDuckGo Search - '"Raz Simone" domestic'. No new results.
DuckDuckGo Search - '"Raz Simone" women'. No new results.
I did find several social media posts discussing this particular topic, but that isn't verifiable. So ...ugh. I'm removing this content? At the end of the day, there's only one source for this material.
If there is a 2nd source that I've overlooked, please feel free to add this content back with the additional citation. I have no particular concerns about WP:DUE or other policies, as long is this is verifiable. Jdphenix ( talk) 00:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
References
You can't really call "activism" taking armed control of a city zone and threatening the police from entering it. Minor vandalism might be considered activism, but the CHOP was literally anarchy held by an armed gang. I've changed the name of the section to "controversies" since we can't talk of domestic terrorism without a sentence, but feel free to pick a better title if you have something more pertinent in mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:B07:A96:9FA6:1488:4A21:5864:D986 ( talk) 02:57, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Calwatch I have removed the sentence and source you have added, as I believe that the source used falls under WP:SPS. pedanticLoser 🗯️ 19:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
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contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
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A graph should have been displayed here but
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Raz Simone, a local rapper with an AK-47 slung from his shoulder and a pistol attached to his hip, screamed, “This is war!” into a white-and-red megaphone and instructed armed paramilitaries to guard the barricades in shifts. Later in the night, Simone was filmed allegedly assaulting multiple protestors who disobeyed his orders, informing them that he was the "police" now, sparking fears that he was becoming the de facto warlord of the autonomous zone.
— City Journal
I'm not sure the best way to incorporate this into the article. – Anne drew 01:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Grandpallama, as stated before, lets discuss this with the community and have group approval. The snopes article is reliable and demonstrates an incident that has been the cause of criticism. The video demonstrates, as stated by snopes, Raz giving a semiautomatic rifle to someone who identifies himself as 18 on a facebook live video. I dont understand why stating it was from facebook live, the individual is 18, or that it is a crime is a problem. The first two claims can be verified by Snopes and the 3rd can be demonstrated by looking at the state law source I provided. Also the state law which I provided the statute for is not my original work and therefore not original research, its just a source from the state government. Given that I recommend keeping the sentence as "He was also criticized by conservatives for handing out a firearm to an individual who claimed to be 18 years old in a Facebook live video, a crime in the state of Washington." Also the Forbes source does not demonstrate that Forbes is calling him a warlord but that other sources are so I will be reading that (I am agreeing with you Grandpallama but simply installing it as a verifiable source of the name used not that it is accurate unless there is a problem with that). Bgrus22 ( talk) 04:29, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Simone appears to give a gun to a self-identified 18-year-old); extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing. The Snopes article does not state that this has been a significant source of conservative criticism. Stating it was a crime by linking it to legal statutes is textbook WP:SYNTH, and your claim that
the state law which I provided the statute for is not my original work and therefore not original research, its just a source from the state governmentis a fundamental misunderstanding of WP:OR. We don't need the Forbes source because we have already sourced the publications calling him a warlord to...those publications. And in your original attempt to add this material, you did assert that Forbes was among the publications calling Simone a warlord. Please read WP:OR and WP:BLP, and do not reinsert this problematic wording again. Grandpallama ( talk) 04:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Grandpallama: This biography is . . . challenging. Not reverting the issues with the sources until there is consensus. They were left in place but the general article structure was revised for a short lede and chronological content.
When there are better sources availlable, it makes sense to steer clear entirely of Fox, NY Post, and Forbes contributors. Perhaps there are aspects of the Forbes article that are worth attributing. Admitedly, this subject has not been a focus of my research and my knowledge drops off beyond the CHOP (CHAZ) stories I have been reading for the main article. He clearly had some sort of presence and notoriety at CHOP that leaned towards occupation with open carry fire arms. One that rubbed some participants the wrong way (see TechCrunch). But beyond a laundry list of conservative news outlets of questionable quality covering him as a warlord, what is actually, specifically known about him and his actions?
Questions that remain: Is the Snopes livestream video different from the New.com.au video? Who took the video(s)? Open carry is legal in Washington, but if it is illegal to distribute firearms to 18 year olds as this wikipedia article currently claims (and this is documented on video) why has this not been covered by more reputable media? Cedar777 ( talk) 04:35, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
short term attention in an ongoing eventwhen that event is still developing. This is a core concept of WP:RECENT. But if it didn't have lasting impact, or significant and widespread reporting, that suggests its inclusion is probably not appropriate, particularly around a BLP. Grandpallama ( talk) 12:51, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Here are a few sources that may be worth including in the biography of the subject: Cedar777 ( talk) 18:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
2 women accuse Seattle hip-hop artist Raz Simone of abuse, coercion (NPR) Primarily
he said/she said, however the article states Campbell’s account is supported by a protection order petition; Branch’s is supported by her mother’s account, hospital records, and a statement from a roommate who said she witnessed the abuse.
.
Schazjmd
(talk)
23:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
More reporting on the allegations in the Seattle Times - this one lists 6 women . . . [1] Cedar777 ( talk) 01:25, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi. I'm here from looking over the WP:BLPN. A concern was raised about the Personal life section.
It is clearly contentious material regarding allegations of committing a crime. Reviewing WP:BLPCRIME, Raz Simone is a public figure in my judgement (from his activities related to the CHAZ).
WP:PUBLICFIGURE states the following, regarding contentious content, " If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." (emphasis mine).
Operating under the presumption that the material belongs here, I've searched for multiple sources for these allegations, or other information not specifically related to CHAZ.
DuckDuckGo Search - '"Raz Simone" abuse'. Found,
[1] - Currently cited source. Newspaper. Verifiable by my eye.
[2] - Makes allegations regarding an arrest record of a different alleged incident. WP:NYPOST, so not considering this information.
All results in the first few pages were either linking to, paraphrasing, or discussing [1], so I didn't consider them.
DuckDuckGo Search - '"Raz Simone" domestic'. No new results.
DuckDuckGo Search - '"Raz Simone" women'. No new results.
I did find several social media posts discussing this particular topic, but that isn't verifiable. So ...ugh. I'm removing this content? At the end of the day, there's only one source for this material.
If there is a 2nd source that I've overlooked, please feel free to add this content back with the additional citation. I have no particular concerns about WP:DUE or other policies, as long is this is verifiable. Jdphenix ( talk) 00:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
References
You can't really call "activism" taking armed control of a city zone and threatening the police from entering it. Minor vandalism might be considered activism, but the CHOP was literally anarchy held by an armed gang. I've changed the name of the section to "controversies" since we can't talk of domestic terrorism without a sentence, but feel free to pick a better title if you have something more pertinent in mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:B07:A96:9FA6:1488:4A21:5864:D986 ( talk) 02:57, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Calwatch I have removed the sentence and source you have added, as I believe that the source used falls under WP:SPS. pedanticLoser 🗯️ 19:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)