This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ralph Northam article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This page is about an active politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Ralph Northam. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:43, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
1) The editor appears to be extraordinarily confused about WP:RS. A bunch of rubbish sources together do not equate reliably sourcing. Townhall.com and the like don't belong on Wikipedia. Richmond Times Dispatch and WaPo do belong.
2) The editor misleadingly suggests that the tightness of the race has something to do with the decision, which the sources don't say.
3) The editor repeatedly removes text that notes that A) this was on "some" flyers and B) the Northam campaign's rationale for removing Fairfax from some flyers.
4) The sources don't say that Fairfax was removed because he was black, but Wikipedia text strongly implies that was the case. There's nothing wrong with noting that Fairfax was African-American, but it's not WP:NPOV to only denote Fairfax's race. Especially, when the Northam campaign did provide a rationale, namely that Fairfax was removed on flyers in the counties where unions did not endorse Fairfax. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 10:59, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Phillip Thompson, president of the Loudoun County NAACP, said the exclusion of Fairfax from literature reinforces a perception that the Democratic Party sees him as an outsider and is taking the black vote for granted. “A lot of us feel the Virginia Democratic Party has never been a very inclusive group, and they always kind of marginalize African Americans without providing any grounds for advancement,” said Thompson. “Hillary [Clinton] won the state of Virginia because of the African American, Hispanic and minority vote. . . . Justin is a perfect person to help them do that again, and they still don’t support him.”[1]. Stop trying to spin it away from what all the sources have said. -- DHeyward ( talk) 11:06, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Northam's campaign said removing Fairfax was done at the request of labor leaders that had endorsed Northam and Herring but not Fairfax.was in there from the beginning. And no, I'm not going to repond to ad hominem attacks. They are not legitimate "points." -- DHeyward ( talk) 19:43, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
This edit is classic undue weight - a lengthy quote on a transient campaign controversy, cherry-picked from the source. The change of the flyer was indeed controversial, and it's fair to point out that the campaign later said it was a mistake, but it is cherry-picking to present one critical quote from a county-level leader without presenting countervailing views in the very same article ("Some black leaders called the issue a distraction" and "Michael Halle said the omission of Fairfax from the palm cards was being blown out of proportion"). I question whether this mini-furor belongs on this BLP at all (rather than on Virginia gubernatorial election, 2017). But if we're going to include it at all, it must be proportionate.
And, moreover, some of the language inserted was not supported by the cited source. Fairfax's portrait and name was omitted from the palm cards distributed to the union because the union doesn't support him. He was not "airbrushed" or "retouched" (which wrongly implies some sort of Soviet-style manipulation of a photo ). Words matter. -- Neutrality talk 20:28, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Snooganssnoogans:: Please mind WP:BATTLEFIELD. The edits I made attempted to incorporate the new content with the old content in a seamless paragraph. If you read my edits you will find that I included the bit about there being no sanctuary cities. I did not include the FactCheck.org piece since it probably fits better in the Ed Gillespie article but I am not completely opposed to including it here. Your edits preserved the reliably sourced content I added but now includes multiple redundancies. Please assume good faith, I was not trying to whitewash anything but trying to reduce redundancies. Instaurare ( talk) 16:20, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
I seek resolution to a potential conflict in the faulty argument behind this edit ( WP:AVOIDEDITWAR). The title Excellency is definitively not used for US politicians, according to the US Department of State (see page 4). But a plethora of reliable sources show that the title of Honorable is indeed awarded to US politicians. Here are two samples of Northam referring to himself as Honorable: here and here. The Guide to Virginia Protocols and Traditions (page 5) explains:
“In the federal government, The Honorable is used to address, by name, high officials and former high officials of the American government (this includes officials who have held a commission), foreign ministers, and heads of international organizations.”
For US official government publications suggesting the title of Honorable for certain elected and appointed officials:
For other reputable sites:
And though Wikipedia is not considered a RS, it strives to maintain consistency. See here for what it says about the use of Honorable for US politicians.
@ Therequiembellishere: If you still think that this title does not belong in this article, please, bring your arguments and evidence to assess them here in this Talk Page. However, if you do not show WP:RS or are unwilling or unable to engage this conversation, I would kindly ask you to please return the article to its former version ( self revert) or do not intervene on it when others would do it for you ( WP:0RR). Cheers, Caballero/Historiador ⎌ 07:42, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I attended an event where the governor spoke and asked an aide for a photo from their office to put on Wikipedia. I showed the photo which is currently there. The response I got was "Wikipedia? No."
This is fairly typical - I have asked hundreds of people and offices and almost always the response is either "no" or yes, then later they will not agree to a Wikimedia-compatible copyright license.
Maybe someday things will change! Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:55, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
WaPo: "Va. Gov. Northam’s medical school yearbook page shows men in blackface, KKK robe". [2] Should it be included on this Wikipedia page and how should it written up? As far as I can see, no RS has confirmed that Northam is on the photo in question, and Northam has yet to comment on the story, but it looks damning and will probably be a big story in his governorship (unless it turns out the yearbook editor added the wrong photo to Northam's page or some other far-fetched explanation). Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 21:54, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Why is this not in the Political Career section? It seems pretty out of place where it currently is. Nohomersryan ( talk) 00:52, 2 February 2019 (UTC) (It appears to be its own section now, so just in case anyone reading this now is confused, it was crammed into the early life section when I made this comment. Nohomersryan ( talk) 01:43, 2 February 2019 (UTC))
The timing, makes it seem like an attempt to get rid of him, per his 'abortion' comments. But, we'd need a source for that. GoodDay ( talk) 03:08, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
A reporter from CBS News affiliate News 3, Brendan Ponton, went to the Eastern Virginia Medical School library in Norfolk Friday afternoon and found the page on which the photo appears.They also found in the yearbook his nickname was "Coonman".
CBS News uncovered a page from Northam's yearbook at the Virginia Military Institute which had nicknames listed underneath his name. One of them was "Coonman," a racial slur.[4] PackMecEng ( talk) 03:26, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
In what way is "coonman" a "racial slur" when applied to a white man? "Coon", when applied to a black guy, that would be clear. (Of course, he could have earned this nickname by appearing in blackface regularly at VMI or earlier).--Artaxerxes 19:09, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
We have a SFgate/WP source now: "The source of the tip appears to have been a medical school classmate or classmates of Northam who acted as a direct result of the abortion controversy that erupted earlier in the week, according to two people at Big League Politics, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly. "The revelations about Ralph Northam's racist past were absolutely driven by his medical school classmate's anger over his recent very public support for infanticide," one of the two said". Iselilja ( talk) 23:30, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM PackMecEng ( talk) 04:55, 2 February 2019 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Photo of Ralph with his racially offensive nickname "Coonman".
WRIC ABC news link to article discussing his year book image and his racially offensive nickname "Coonman". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.148.133.13 ( talk) 12:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Pretty sure the school yearbook where the nickname appears is from the Virginia Military INSTITUTE rather than the "Academy", but I haven't got the power to change that. Can someone with more access make this minor alteration? [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahtrap ( talk • contribs) 19:35, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Done. Someone fixed it.--
Mojo Hand (
talk) 18:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
References
We should 'maybe' point out that the mainstream media is incorrectly reporting that a Virginia governor can serve only 'one' term. Actually, a Virginia governor can serve an unlimited number of terms. Just not consecutively. GoodDay ( talk) 06:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Why does the initial description not mention that Ralph is a Democratic politician? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siddsam ( talk • contribs) 06:35, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Is Ralph Northam a Democrat? You have to search the article to find out. Should it be in the lead paragraph, as it is for Jerry Brown and many other U.S. governors? Why isn't it? Dynasteria ( talk) 09:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
It has always been there. It is the same place as are all political party designations for politicians in WP - within the appropriate space in the information block on the right. I suppose it could be added to the lede but given that most other politicians do not have similar designations in the lede, should we treat Northam differently? airuditious ( talk) 18:49, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm out of the country and of course Gavin Newsom is now the governor of California. It's in his lead as well. Dynasteria ( talk) 23:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
I realize that this is hardly going to be at the front of anyone's mind right now, but I'd like to get others' thoughts on whether or not to mention Kathy Tran in this article. Tran's involvement with the Repeal Act is discussed in a separate article about the bill, and to my knowledge, Northam hasn't mentioned Tran in any of his public comments about the bill - so Tran seems irrelevant to the section of this article about the topic. Mentioning her is also inconsistent with how other bills are discussed in this article, e.g. nowhere is it specified who proposed the bill expanding Medicaid or the bill raising the felony threshold on theft. -- Jpcase ( talk) 22:47, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
It seems to me that when Northam said, "in this particular example", he was actually referring back to the very previous sentence of his own statement, when he said, "And it's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable." He wasn't necessarily referencing any particular example from Carey's question. I agree that providing enough context to readers is important, but there's a separate article for the Repeal Act, where that additional context is already provided. The "Abortion" section of this article isn't about the Repeal Act itself, nor is it about the controversy over Tran's testimony - both of those are addressed in the Repeal Act article. So the "event" that the "Abortion" section of this article discusses is solely Northam's own comments about the bill, and Tran isn't a particularly important part of those comments. The only context that seems necessary for understanding Northam's comments is a basic overview of how the Repeal Act would change Virginia law as it relates to late-term abortions. -- Jpcase ( talk) 00:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Sparkie82: @ VeritasSapientia: So...it looks like we're right back to where we started. I'm considering whether to open a new RfC, but as I've expressed before, I really just want to be done with this. Sparkie, is there any chance that we could come up with a new, compromise solution between the original three of us? I'll concede that my initial idea (Option A in the RfC) may have been overly long. But are you able to recognize why I'm uncomfortable with Option B? My main concern is that Option B contains what appears to be a factual inaccuracy - as far as I know, Northam has never taken a public position on Virginia's "substantial and irremediable" requirement. I was also opposed to including Northam's statement in a long footnote, but if you want to include that statement in a link to Wikiquote, then I suppose that I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with not including any statements by Northam's spokesperson in the body of this article, but I would suggest that we include those statements on Wikiquote as well.
So what I'm proposing is that we essentially go with a combination of Option A and Option E. We'll replace the opening sentence from Option A ("For third-trimester abortions, he supports the requirement that more than one physician attest that continued pregnancy would be "substantially and irremediably" harmful to a woman's health and opposes a provision of the proposed Repeal Act that would lower that requirement to a single physician.") with the opening sentence from Option E ("For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians."). This would also include an extra footnote that was present in Option E (which can be read here [5]. This footnote provides a little more context on how the multiple physicians requirement works). And I would suggest that we use Option E's phrasing about it being Republican politicians who criticized Northam's statement. But we would also adhere to Option B in that we would remove the two statements by Northam and his spokesperson from the body of the article.
Does this sound okay to you? airuditious, let me know if you have any input as well. Thanks. -- Jpcase ( talk) 14:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
This is *slightly* different from what I proposed in my April 22 post: I've removed the statement, "Northam opposes abortion after labor has begun", because upon looking back through some of our earlier comments in this conversation, I've noticed that Northam's position on that particular matter has never been clearly stated anywhere. We could certainly infer that Northam may hold such a position, but if there aren't any sources explicitly stating that he does, then we shouldn't state it in the article. I've also realized that we probably won't be able to include the statements from Northam's spokesperson on Northam's own Wikiquote page, so you can just disregard that earlier suggestion of mine. I hadn't thought that through. Hope to hear back from one or both of you - if we can't settle on a compromise, then I'll go ahead and draft a new RfC. -- Jpcase ( talk) 16:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Someone recently added this article to the Racism in the United States category, which while understandable, doesn't seem like a clear-cut decision to me. Northam's actions in college were certainly racist and may very well force him out of office - but I'm not aware of many people who are calling him a current racist. To the contrary, several of the people who have called on him to step down have said that they don't believe that the actions he took in college reflect who he is today. His decision to (so far) remain in office has caused the backlash against him to grow, but I still don't recall anyone out-and-out calling him a racist (It's admittedly possible that I could be overlooking some statements, but at the very least, the sentiment doesn't seem to be wide-spread).
So it's a little unclear to me what the standards are for including a BLP article in the "Racism in the United States" category. If anyone should be included in the category who's ever done something widely condemned as racist, then sure, it would be appropriate to include Northam - but by that standard, Donald Trump, George Allen, Ed Gillespie, Corey Stewart, and arguably even people like Franklin D. Roosevelt or Woodrow Wilson should probably be included, and none of them currently are. Heck, Ted Danson was widely condemned for donning blackface in the 90s, but he isn't included in the category. And if someone wants to argue that all of those people should be added to the category, then that's fair enough. But without any definitive standard for which BLPs should or shouldn't be included in the category, it seems subjective and inconsistent to include Northam. -- Jpcase ( talk) 15:54, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
The time has come for someone to propose that a new article be created on the Ralph Northam yearbook controversy. Rationale: per the essay known as WP:RECENT this bio article is now becoming bloated with incident specific details out of proportion to the life and career of Governor Northam. Understanding that this is a dynamic situation, I would propose that a new article be created to accumulate the details of this "news-cycle-by-news-cycle" drama... possibly to include a background section on the previous week's abortion / infanticide controversy. I figured I would float it here before creating an article to avert a painful deletion discussion later. If there is editorial consensus I will create the article. Thoughts? Peace MPS ( talk) 21:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I have started a minimalist 2019 Virginia political crisis article. i leave it for others to link/merge/expand as appropriate.-- Pharos ( talk) 19:25, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Northam's recent comments on third-trimester abortion and non-viable births given during an interview with WTOP be explained in the article using four paragraphs and including an edited quote, or should they be explained with two sentences including a footnote link to a complete quotation/explanation?
(the subject section of the article is Ralph_Northam#Abortion) - Extension. Sparkie82 ( t• c) 22:49, 10 April 2019 (UTC) Extension. Sparkie82 ( t• c) 05:35, 9 March 2019 (UTC), originally raised by Sparkie82 ( t• c) 19:08, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
(I just added Biographies to the topic areas for this rfc). Sparkie82 ( t• c) 02:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Version "C" for consideration
Option D: Omit it from the "Abortion" section of the article entirely
I proposed in our earlier discussion that the vast majority of what Northam has said about the Repeal Act seems irrelevant to the "Abortion" section of this article. That section of this article is supposed to deal specifically with Northam's political "positions", and Northam has never taken a public position on the Repeal Act. During the WTOP interview, when Northam discussed this topic, all he did was explain how third-trimester abortions are handled under current medical practice. And the "Abortion" section of the article already states in an earlier paragraph that Northam supports the current law allowing for third-trimester abortions in Virginia. So any discussion of the WTOP interview would simply be re-iterating what's already been said.
Northam's statement from the WTOP interview certainly got quite a bit of news coverage, and so I absolutely think that it should be mentioned somewhere in the article. But the statement is already mentioned in the "Governor of Virginia" section, which seems like a more appropriate place for it.
So my feelings on this depend on what we want the "Abortion" section of this article to be. If we want it to be a depository for any notable statements that Northam has ever made about abortion (and I'm not necessarily opposed to going that route), then I strongly support Option A, because I think using Northam's own words is the best way to go when dealing with a statement that has caused significant controversy. On the other hand, if we want the "Abortion" section to exclusively deal with Northam's positions, then I don't think that we need to discuss the WTOP interview in that section at all.
I should also note that both "Option B" and "Option C" appear to contain factual inaccuracies, as both suggest that Northam supports the current law in Virginia requiring that third-trimester abortions only be performed when continued pregnancy is deemed "substantially and irremediably" dangerous to a woman's health. As far as I know, Northam has never taken a public position on that particular policy, although if I'm mistaken, then my apologies. -- Jpcase ( talk) 20:07, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
But the statement is already mentioned in the "Governor of Virginia" sectionNot the whole statement. In fact, it only contains 26 out of the 113 words in Northam's quote in Version A. wumbolo ^^^ 21:58, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Potential copyright issue with the footnote content
Anyone have any concern about the FN content being covered under copyright and therefore subject to WP's non-free policy? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure radio broadcasts are copyrighted works and even though this is a public official being interviewed, it will likely still be the broadcaster who holds the copyright. So, if this is non-free content, the FN quote may violate:
Thanks. --- airuditious ( talk) 08:40, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
As Aleding mentioned somewhere earlier in this conversation, it might be helpful to either amend the proposal at the top of this RfC, so as to include all options, or to just start a new RfC altogether. Also, it's worth noting that there's yet another option to consider - Option E would be that we leave the article as it currently is, which is pretty similar to Option B, but corrects the aforementioned factual inaccuracy present in Option B, removes the extremely long footnote present in Option B, and includes the response issued by Northam's spokesperson. -- Jpcase ( talk) 17:42, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
This FN was properly removed and reverted - can someone please describe the relevance of that FN to Northam's article? I fail to see it conforming to anything in WP:CITE. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure quoting interviews and semi-transcription are not proper uses of FNs. airuditious ( talk) 20:46, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
MPS, Muboshgu: "...how much of the quote do we include?" - that has been the debate. So prior to obtaining consensus, the editor decided to remove the quote from the body of the article and moved it as an "expository" FN which is now the subject of this discussion. I have asked elsewhere - and do so again here: (A) how is this content eligible for inclusion in the Northam article?; (B) how does this long FN conform to WP policy most notably WP:CITE? As an aside, transcripts are available for literally any citable work yet those transcripts are not, for reasons passing understanding, included within the article itself. airuditious ( talk) 21:32, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
As an aside, I just realized that taking a direct quote from the radio interview - even though quoting Northam - might likely be a copyright violation as well as against WP:Non-free_content_criteria. I know that some see a fuzzy line between quoting a mere "snippet" and a bonafide infringement but we are talking about a lot of directly quoted verbiage. And because I have not yet found a release on the Hubbard Radio site (owners of WTOP radio), I would think it might make sense to remove if only on that basis. airuditious ( talk) 22:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Our article presently contains this information:
The yearbook photo also brought renewed attention to a 2013 video clip in which Northam appeared unwilling to shake hands with his African-American opponent for lieutenant governor, E. W. Jackson, after a debate, though it was unclear whether Northam saw Jackson extending his hand.[92]
Watching the video one sees that the discussion had nothing to with race. If there was an element of race in the discussion or even if it vaguely related to racial issues it might be reasonable to assume that Northam refused to shake the hand of an African American man. As I watch the video it is my impression he would have refused to shake hands regardless of race, if even it was his intention to refuse since we already state that it is unclear if he even was aware of the hand shake offer. Furthermore, this issue was not picked up by the major news sources but rather more tabloid type outlets. We need to be very careful about what we include in our BLPs. I have removed it while it is discussed. Gandydancer ( talk) 23:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, it should be noted that this supposed 2013 racist incident with Republican nominee E.W. Jackson "[who has made] past statements denouncing Democrats as “anti-God,” gays as “perverted” and non-Christians as following a “false religion.” [8] occurred after a rather passionate argument during the final minutes of a 90 minute debate. At that time there were no news reports about racial incidents. That was suggested only recently. Gandydancer ( talk) 05:20, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
The article contains the following:
I can't see where this has anything to do with Northam's views on criminal justice. Most of the claimed abuse went on previous to his time as governor and he responded as, one would assume anyone would, by asking for an investigation. I think it should be deleted. Gandydancer ( talk) 02:12, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
This is a continuation of a previous RfC, which was closed without consensus. When that RfC initially opened, it didn't include all of the options that had been suggested during prior conversations about the matter. As such, when that RfC was closed, it was advised that any new RfC on the topic be first posted in draft form, so that anyone interested has a chance to add options before the RfC goes live.
The previous RfC included four options, but one of those options (Option A) had been suggested by myself, and I've since developed alternative options that I prefer. Another one of those options (Option C), was proposed by an editor, VeritasSapientia, who has been essentially inactive on Wikipedia for about two months. Neither Option A nor Option C gained any support in the previous RfC, so I've decided to omit both of them from this draft. Either option can certainly be re-added if anyone would like to see them included.
To keep things simple, I won't bother adding references to any of these options, but if anyone wants to see the references, let me know, and I'll add links to where the references can be found.
I'll leave the draft up for about a week. Anyone is welcome to add new options during that time. -- Jpcase ( talk) 16:05, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
Option A:
For third-trimester abortions, he supports the requirement that more than one physician attest that continued pregnancy would be "substantially and irremediably" harmful to a woman's health and opposes a provision of the proposed Repeal Act that would lower that requirement to a single physician. Northam opposes abortion after labor has begun but attracted intense criticism when he suggested that non-resuscitation and other measures were an option in cases of non-viable births with severe deformities. [a]
Option B:
For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. [b] In January 2019, Northam attracted intense criticism from Republican politicians when he suggested that non-resuscitation and other measures were an option in cases of non-viable births with severe deformities. [c]
Option C:
(This option would be to simply omit from the "Abortion" section any discussion of the comments that Northam made during his WTOP interview. The controversial comments would still be addressed, briefly, in the article's "Governor of Virginia" section.)
Option D:
For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. [d] During a January 2019 radio interview, Northam said that when third-trimester abortions are performed, "it's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable." He further explained that if such a pregnancy results in a delivery, "The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother." This statement drew intense criticism from Republican politicians nationwide, many of whom accused Northam of supporting infanticide.
Option E:
For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. [e] During a January 2019 radio interview, Northam said that when third-trimester abortions are performed, "it's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable." He further explained that if a pregnancy resulted in the delivery of a non-viable or severely deformed infant, "The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother." This statement drew intense criticism from Republican politicians nationwide, many of whom accused Northam of supporting infanticide.
Option F:
For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. [f] During a January 2019 radio interview, Northam said that third-trimester abortions may be done in cases of a non-viable fetus or severe deformity. If a delivery occurred in such cases, Northam further stated that, "The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother." This statement drew intense criticism from Republican politicians nationwide, many of whom accused Northam of supporting infanticide.
@ Gandydancer: How do you feel about using Option D? It seems that everyone else is in favor of it, so if we're all in agreement here, then I suppose that there isn't any need to open an official RfC. -- Jpcase ( talk) 15:20, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Gandydancer: @ Ozzie10aaaa: @ Sparkie82: @ XavierItzm: It seems like we were close to reaching a consensus in favor of using Option D, but Mojo Hand has pointed out that some of the language in Option D is overly vague. I'm inclined to agree with Mojo Hand on this. So I've added an Option E, which is almost identical to Option D. The only difference is that Option E replaces the phrase "such a pregnancy" with a description of the specific type of pregnancy that Northam was talking about. Can everyone who I just pinged let me know if you'd support Option E? If we can all agree on this, then I won't bother to open an RfC. -- Jpcase ( talk) 17:13, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
there may be a fetus that's non-viable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.
![]() | This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
Since last night, this article has undergone persistent disruptive editing from two IP accounts. The first of these edits can be seen here The first IP account reverted four different editors multiple times and has been warned twice on his or her talk page to refrain from disruptive editing. The second IP account has continued to add the exact same content as the first IP account. Neither of these accounts had ever been used before last night.
I've always allowed other people to handle these types of situations, so I'm not really sure what should be done. Should both accounts be blocked? Or should the article be temporarily protected? Is there some other, third option that would be best? Thanks. -- Jpcase ( talk) 13:06, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
On January 15, 2020, Northam declared a state of emergency before a peaceful assembly of Second Amendment activists protesting the Governor's prospective gun control measures.
The preceding November, Northam announced the introduction of eight gun control bills, including universal background checks and an assault weapons ban, among other measures. More than municipalities in Virginia declared themselves “Second Amendment sanctuaries” in response. In subsequent reports, Northam said localities would face repercussions if law enforcement officers don’t enforce gun control laws. “If we have constitutional laws on the books and law enforcement officers are not enforcing those laws on the books, then there are going to be consequences,” Northam said.
Northam's executive order forbids the presence of any weapons on the capitol grounds during the proposed assembly.
108.26.183.108 ( talk) 04:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
I agree that the more should be said in this article about the subject of guns, although I'm not sure that I support the proposed phrasing contained in the above-paragraphs. I would want to see much more context and detail added. -- Jpcase ( talk) 03:09, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
That Ralph Northam's slave-owning ancestor freed one of them to serve in the Civil War sounds a little too politically convenient. Is there a source for this? Any way of demonstrating that was his motive? DanMarshCTR ( talk) 19:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I'd never expect that a one-term governor of a mid-size state with a mid-size population would have perhaps have a longer article than the average POTUS does. There is so much junk here that does not need to be included and I believe that this page should be short and sweet. Same thing with Charlie Baker. Ak-eater06 ( talk) 22:51, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
This section is excessively focused on a niche issue that the majority of Americans accept as a safe and legal medical procedure. 200 words about his position on abortion is undue, and shows the influence of minority religious political extremists at work. Viriditas ( talk) 23:57, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I wonder. How many 'bleeping' times are we going to have to hide Northam's successor, between now & inauguration day. GoodDay ( talk) 04:49, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ralph Northam article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This page is about an active politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Ralph Northam. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:43, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
1) The editor appears to be extraordinarily confused about WP:RS. A bunch of rubbish sources together do not equate reliably sourcing. Townhall.com and the like don't belong on Wikipedia. Richmond Times Dispatch and WaPo do belong.
2) The editor misleadingly suggests that the tightness of the race has something to do with the decision, which the sources don't say.
3) The editor repeatedly removes text that notes that A) this was on "some" flyers and B) the Northam campaign's rationale for removing Fairfax from some flyers.
4) The sources don't say that Fairfax was removed because he was black, but Wikipedia text strongly implies that was the case. There's nothing wrong with noting that Fairfax was African-American, but it's not WP:NPOV to only denote Fairfax's race. Especially, when the Northam campaign did provide a rationale, namely that Fairfax was removed on flyers in the counties where unions did not endorse Fairfax. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 10:59, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Phillip Thompson, president of the Loudoun County NAACP, said the exclusion of Fairfax from literature reinforces a perception that the Democratic Party sees him as an outsider and is taking the black vote for granted. “A lot of us feel the Virginia Democratic Party has never been a very inclusive group, and they always kind of marginalize African Americans without providing any grounds for advancement,” said Thompson. “Hillary [Clinton] won the state of Virginia because of the African American, Hispanic and minority vote. . . . Justin is a perfect person to help them do that again, and they still don’t support him.”[1]. Stop trying to spin it away from what all the sources have said. -- DHeyward ( talk) 11:06, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Northam's campaign said removing Fairfax was done at the request of labor leaders that had endorsed Northam and Herring but not Fairfax.was in there from the beginning. And no, I'm not going to repond to ad hominem attacks. They are not legitimate "points." -- DHeyward ( talk) 19:43, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
This edit is classic undue weight - a lengthy quote on a transient campaign controversy, cherry-picked from the source. The change of the flyer was indeed controversial, and it's fair to point out that the campaign later said it was a mistake, but it is cherry-picking to present one critical quote from a county-level leader without presenting countervailing views in the very same article ("Some black leaders called the issue a distraction" and "Michael Halle said the omission of Fairfax from the palm cards was being blown out of proportion"). I question whether this mini-furor belongs on this BLP at all (rather than on Virginia gubernatorial election, 2017). But if we're going to include it at all, it must be proportionate.
And, moreover, some of the language inserted was not supported by the cited source. Fairfax's portrait and name was omitted from the palm cards distributed to the union because the union doesn't support him. He was not "airbrushed" or "retouched" (which wrongly implies some sort of Soviet-style manipulation of a photo ). Words matter. -- Neutrality talk 20:28, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Snooganssnoogans:: Please mind WP:BATTLEFIELD. The edits I made attempted to incorporate the new content with the old content in a seamless paragraph. If you read my edits you will find that I included the bit about there being no sanctuary cities. I did not include the FactCheck.org piece since it probably fits better in the Ed Gillespie article but I am not completely opposed to including it here. Your edits preserved the reliably sourced content I added but now includes multiple redundancies. Please assume good faith, I was not trying to whitewash anything but trying to reduce redundancies. Instaurare ( talk) 16:20, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
I seek resolution to a potential conflict in the faulty argument behind this edit ( WP:AVOIDEDITWAR). The title Excellency is definitively not used for US politicians, according to the US Department of State (see page 4). But a plethora of reliable sources show that the title of Honorable is indeed awarded to US politicians. Here are two samples of Northam referring to himself as Honorable: here and here. The Guide to Virginia Protocols and Traditions (page 5) explains:
“In the federal government, The Honorable is used to address, by name, high officials and former high officials of the American government (this includes officials who have held a commission), foreign ministers, and heads of international organizations.”
For US official government publications suggesting the title of Honorable for certain elected and appointed officials:
For other reputable sites:
And though Wikipedia is not considered a RS, it strives to maintain consistency. See here for what it says about the use of Honorable for US politicians.
@ Therequiembellishere: If you still think that this title does not belong in this article, please, bring your arguments and evidence to assess them here in this Talk Page. However, if you do not show WP:RS or are unwilling or unable to engage this conversation, I would kindly ask you to please return the article to its former version ( self revert) or do not intervene on it when others would do it for you ( WP:0RR). Cheers, Caballero/Historiador ⎌ 07:42, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I attended an event where the governor spoke and asked an aide for a photo from their office to put on Wikipedia. I showed the photo which is currently there. The response I got was "Wikipedia? No."
This is fairly typical - I have asked hundreds of people and offices and almost always the response is either "no" or yes, then later they will not agree to a Wikimedia-compatible copyright license.
Maybe someday things will change! Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:55, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
WaPo: "Va. Gov. Northam’s medical school yearbook page shows men in blackface, KKK robe". [2] Should it be included on this Wikipedia page and how should it written up? As far as I can see, no RS has confirmed that Northam is on the photo in question, and Northam has yet to comment on the story, but it looks damning and will probably be a big story in his governorship (unless it turns out the yearbook editor added the wrong photo to Northam's page or some other far-fetched explanation). Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 21:54, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Why is this not in the Political Career section? It seems pretty out of place where it currently is. Nohomersryan ( talk) 00:52, 2 February 2019 (UTC) (It appears to be its own section now, so just in case anyone reading this now is confused, it was crammed into the early life section when I made this comment. Nohomersryan ( talk) 01:43, 2 February 2019 (UTC))
The timing, makes it seem like an attempt to get rid of him, per his 'abortion' comments. But, we'd need a source for that. GoodDay ( talk) 03:08, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
A reporter from CBS News affiliate News 3, Brendan Ponton, went to the Eastern Virginia Medical School library in Norfolk Friday afternoon and found the page on which the photo appears.They also found in the yearbook his nickname was "Coonman".
CBS News uncovered a page from Northam's yearbook at the Virginia Military Institute which had nicknames listed underneath his name. One of them was "Coonman," a racial slur.[4] PackMecEng ( talk) 03:26, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
In what way is "coonman" a "racial slur" when applied to a white man? "Coon", when applied to a black guy, that would be clear. (Of course, he could have earned this nickname by appearing in blackface regularly at VMI or earlier).--Artaxerxes 19:09, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
We have a SFgate/WP source now: "The source of the tip appears to have been a medical school classmate or classmates of Northam who acted as a direct result of the abortion controversy that erupted earlier in the week, according to two people at Big League Politics, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly. "The revelations about Ralph Northam's racist past were absolutely driven by his medical school classmate's anger over his recent very public support for infanticide," one of the two said". Iselilja ( talk) 23:30, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM PackMecEng ( talk) 04:55, 2 February 2019 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Photo of Ralph with his racially offensive nickname "Coonman".
WRIC ABC news link to article discussing his year book image and his racially offensive nickname "Coonman". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.148.133.13 ( talk) 12:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Pretty sure the school yearbook where the nickname appears is from the Virginia Military INSTITUTE rather than the "Academy", but I haven't got the power to change that. Can someone with more access make this minor alteration? [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahtrap ( talk • contribs) 19:35, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Done. Someone fixed it.--
Mojo Hand (
talk) 18:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
References
We should 'maybe' point out that the mainstream media is incorrectly reporting that a Virginia governor can serve only 'one' term. Actually, a Virginia governor can serve an unlimited number of terms. Just not consecutively. GoodDay ( talk) 06:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Why does the initial description not mention that Ralph is a Democratic politician? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siddsam ( talk • contribs) 06:35, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Is Ralph Northam a Democrat? You have to search the article to find out. Should it be in the lead paragraph, as it is for Jerry Brown and many other U.S. governors? Why isn't it? Dynasteria ( talk) 09:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
It has always been there. It is the same place as are all political party designations for politicians in WP - within the appropriate space in the information block on the right. I suppose it could be added to the lede but given that most other politicians do not have similar designations in the lede, should we treat Northam differently? airuditious ( talk) 18:49, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm out of the country and of course Gavin Newsom is now the governor of California. It's in his lead as well. Dynasteria ( talk) 23:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
I realize that this is hardly going to be at the front of anyone's mind right now, but I'd like to get others' thoughts on whether or not to mention Kathy Tran in this article. Tran's involvement with the Repeal Act is discussed in a separate article about the bill, and to my knowledge, Northam hasn't mentioned Tran in any of his public comments about the bill - so Tran seems irrelevant to the section of this article about the topic. Mentioning her is also inconsistent with how other bills are discussed in this article, e.g. nowhere is it specified who proposed the bill expanding Medicaid or the bill raising the felony threshold on theft. -- Jpcase ( talk) 22:47, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
It seems to me that when Northam said, "in this particular example", he was actually referring back to the very previous sentence of his own statement, when he said, "And it's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable." He wasn't necessarily referencing any particular example from Carey's question. I agree that providing enough context to readers is important, but there's a separate article for the Repeal Act, where that additional context is already provided. The "Abortion" section of this article isn't about the Repeal Act itself, nor is it about the controversy over Tran's testimony - both of those are addressed in the Repeal Act article. So the "event" that the "Abortion" section of this article discusses is solely Northam's own comments about the bill, and Tran isn't a particularly important part of those comments. The only context that seems necessary for understanding Northam's comments is a basic overview of how the Repeal Act would change Virginia law as it relates to late-term abortions. -- Jpcase ( talk) 00:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Sparkie82: @ VeritasSapientia: So...it looks like we're right back to where we started. I'm considering whether to open a new RfC, but as I've expressed before, I really just want to be done with this. Sparkie, is there any chance that we could come up with a new, compromise solution between the original three of us? I'll concede that my initial idea (Option A in the RfC) may have been overly long. But are you able to recognize why I'm uncomfortable with Option B? My main concern is that Option B contains what appears to be a factual inaccuracy - as far as I know, Northam has never taken a public position on Virginia's "substantial and irremediable" requirement. I was also opposed to including Northam's statement in a long footnote, but if you want to include that statement in a link to Wikiquote, then I suppose that I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with not including any statements by Northam's spokesperson in the body of this article, but I would suggest that we include those statements on Wikiquote as well.
So what I'm proposing is that we essentially go with a combination of Option A and Option E. We'll replace the opening sentence from Option A ("For third-trimester abortions, he supports the requirement that more than one physician attest that continued pregnancy would be "substantially and irremediably" harmful to a woman's health and opposes a provision of the proposed Repeal Act that would lower that requirement to a single physician.") with the opening sentence from Option E ("For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians."). This would also include an extra footnote that was present in Option E (which can be read here [5]. This footnote provides a little more context on how the multiple physicians requirement works). And I would suggest that we use Option E's phrasing about it being Republican politicians who criticized Northam's statement. But we would also adhere to Option B in that we would remove the two statements by Northam and his spokesperson from the body of the article.
Does this sound okay to you? airuditious, let me know if you have any input as well. Thanks. -- Jpcase ( talk) 14:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
This is *slightly* different from what I proposed in my April 22 post: I've removed the statement, "Northam opposes abortion after labor has begun", because upon looking back through some of our earlier comments in this conversation, I've noticed that Northam's position on that particular matter has never been clearly stated anywhere. We could certainly infer that Northam may hold such a position, but if there aren't any sources explicitly stating that he does, then we shouldn't state it in the article. I've also realized that we probably won't be able to include the statements from Northam's spokesperson on Northam's own Wikiquote page, so you can just disregard that earlier suggestion of mine. I hadn't thought that through. Hope to hear back from one or both of you - if we can't settle on a compromise, then I'll go ahead and draft a new RfC. -- Jpcase ( talk) 16:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Someone recently added this article to the Racism in the United States category, which while understandable, doesn't seem like a clear-cut decision to me. Northam's actions in college were certainly racist and may very well force him out of office - but I'm not aware of many people who are calling him a current racist. To the contrary, several of the people who have called on him to step down have said that they don't believe that the actions he took in college reflect who he is today. His decision to (so far) remain in office has caused the backlash against him to grow, but I still don't recall anyone out-and-out calling him a racist (It's admittedly possible that I could be overlooking some statements, but at the very least, the sentiment doesn't seem to be wide-spread).
So it's a little unclear to me what the standards are for including a BLP article in the "Racism in the United States" category. If anyone should be included in the category who's ever done something widely condemned as racist, then sure, it would be appropriate to include Northam - but by that standard, Donald Trump, George Allen, Ed Gillespie, Corey Stewart, and arguably even people like Franklin D. Roosevelt or Woodrow Wilson should probably be included, and none of them currently are. Heck, Ted Danson was widely condemned for donning blackface in the 90s, but he isn't included in the category. And if someone wants to argue that all of those people should be added to the category, then that's fair enough. But without any definitive standard for which BLPs should or shouldn't be included in the category, it seems subjective and inconsistent to include Northam. -- Jpcase ( talk) 15:54, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
The time has come for someone to propose that a new article be created on the Ralph Northam yearbook controversy. Rationale: per the essay known as WP:RECENT this bio article is now becoming bloated with incident specific details out of proportion to the life and career of Governor Northam. Understanding that this is a dynamic situation, I would propose that a new article be created to accumulate the details of this "news-cycle-by-news-cycle" drama... possibly to include a background section on the previous week's abortion / infanticide controversy. I figured I would float it here before creating an article to avert a painful deletion discussion later. If there is editorial consensus I will create the article. Thoughts? Peace MPS ( talk) 21:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I have started a minimalist 2019 Virginia political crisis article. i leave it for others to link/merge/expand as appropriate.-- Pharos ( talk) 19:25, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Northam's recent comments on third-trimester abortion and non-viable births given during an interview with WTOP be explained in the article using four paragraphs and including an edited quote, or should they be explained with two sentences including a footnote link to a complete quotation/explanation?
(the subject section of the article is Ralph_Northam#Abortion) - Extension. Sparkie82 ( t• c) 22:49, 10 April 2019 (UTC) Extension. Sparkie82 ( t• c) 05:35, 9 March 2019 (UTC), originally raised by Sparkie82 ( t• c) 19:08, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
(I just added Biographies to the topic areas for this rfc). Sparkie82 ( t• c) 02:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Version "C" for consideration
Option D: Omit it from the "Abortion" section of the article entirely
I proposed in our earlier discussion that the vast majority of what Northam has said about the Repeal Act seems irrelevant to the "Abortion" section of this article. That section of this article is supposed to deal specifically with Northam's political "positions", and Northam has never taken a public position on the Repeal Act. During the WTOP interview, when Northam discussed this topic, all he did was explain how third-trimester abortions are handled under current medical practice. And the "Abortion" section of the article already states in an earlier paragraph that Northam supports the current law allowing for third-trimester abortions in Virginia. So any discussion of the WTOP interview would simply be re-iterating what's already been said.
Northam's statement from the WTOP interview certainly got quite a bit of news coverage, and so I absolutely think that it should be mentioned somewhere in the article. But the statement is already mentioned in the "Governor of Virginia" section, which seems like a more appropriate place for it.
So my feelings on this depend on what we want the "Abortion" section of this article to be. If we want it to be a depository for any notable statements that Northam has ever made about abortion (and I'm not necessarily opposed to going that route), then I strongly support Option A, because I think using Northam's own words is the best way to go when dealing with a statement that has caused significant controversy. On the other hand, if we want the "Abortion" section to exclusively deal with Northam's positions, then I don't think that we need to discuss the WTOP interview in that section at all.
I should also note that both "Option B" and "Option C" appear to contain factual inaccuracies, as both suggest that Northam supports the current law in Virginia requiring that third-trimester abortions only be performed when continued pregnancy is deemed "substantially and irremediably" dangerous to a woman's health. As far as I know, Northam has never taken a public position on that particular policy, although if I'm mistaken, then my apologies. -- Jpcase ( talk) 20:07, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
But the statement is already mentioned in the "Governor of Virginia" sectionNot the whole statement. In fact, it only contains 26 out of the 113 words in Northam's quote in Version A. wumbolo ^^^ 21:58, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Potential copyright issue with the footnote content
Anyone have any concern about the FN content being covered under copyright and therefore subject to WP's non-free policy? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure radio broadcasts are copyrighted works and even though this is a public official being interviewed, it will likely still be the broadcaster who holds the copyright. So, if this is non-free content, the FN quote may violate:
Thanks. --- airuditious ( talk) 08:40, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
As Aleding mentioned somewhere earlier in this conversation, it might be helpful to either amend the proposal at the top of this RfC, so as to include all options, or to just start a new RfC altogether. Also, it's worth noting that there's yet another option to consider - Option E would be that we leave the article as it currently is, which is pretty similar to Option B, but corrects the aforementioned factual inaccuracy present in Option B, removes the extremely long footnote present in Option B, and includes the response issued by Northam's spokesperson. -- Jpcase ( talk) 17:42, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
This FN was properly removed and reverted - can someone please describe the relevance of that FN to Northam's article? I fail to see it conforming to anything in WP:CITE. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure quoting interviews and semi-transcription are not proper uses of FNs. airuditious ( talk) 20:46, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
MPS, Muboshgu: "...how much of the quote do we include?" - that has been the debate. So prior to obtaining consensus, the editor decided to remove the quote from the body of the article and moved it as an "expository" FN which is now the subject of this discussion. I have asked elsewhere - and do so again here: (A) how is this content eligible for inclusion in the Northam article?; (B) how does this long FN conform to WP policy most notably WP:CITE? As an aside, transcripts are available for literally any citable work yet those transcripts are not, for reasons passing understanding, included within the article itself. airuditious ( talk) 21:32, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
As an aside, I just realized that taking a direct quote from the radio interview - even though quoting Northam - might likely be a copyright violation as well as against WP:Non-free_content_criteria. I know that some see a fuzzy line between quoting a mere "snippet" and a bonafide infringement but we are talking about a lot of directly quoted verbiage. And because I have not yet found a release on the Hubbard Radio site (owners of WTOP radio), I would think it might make sense to remove if only on that basis. airuditious ( talk) 22:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Our article presently contains this information:
The yearbook photo also brought renewed attention to a 2013 video clip in which Northam appeared unwilling to shake hands with his African-American opponent for lieutenant governor, E. W. Jackson, after a debate, though it was unclear whether Northam saw Jackson extending his hand.[92]
Watching the video one sees that the discussion had nothing to with race. If there was an element of race in the discussion or even if it vaguely related to racial issues it might be reasonable to assume that Northam refused to shake the hand of an African American man. As I watch the video it is my impression he would have refused to shake hands regardless of race, if even it was his intention to refuse since we already state that it is unclear if he even was aware of the hand shake offer. Furthermore, this issue was not picked up by the major news sources but rather more tabloid type outlets. We need to be very careful about what we include in our BLPs. I have removed it while it is discussed. Gandydancer ( talk) 23:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, it should be noted that this supposed 2013 racist incident with Republican nominee E.W. Jackson "[who has made] past statements denouncing Democrats as “anti-God,” gays as “perverted” and non-Christians as following a “false religion.” [8] occurred after a rather passionate argument during the final minutes of a 90 minute debate. At that time there were no news reports about racial incidents. That was suggested only recently. Gandydancer ( talk) 05:20, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
The article contains the following:
I can't see where this has anything to do with Northam's views on criminal justice. Most of the claimed abuse went on previous to his time as governor and he responded as, one would assume anyone would, by asking for an investigation. I think it should be deleted. Gandydancer ( talk) 02:12, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
This is a continuation of a previous RfC, which was closed without consensus. When that RfC initially opened, it didn't include all of the options that had been suggested during prior conversations about the matter. As such, when that RfC was closed, it was advised that any new RfC on the topic be first posted in draft form, so that anyone interested has a chance to add options before the RfC goes live.
The previous RfC included four options, but one of those options (Option A) had been suggested by myself, and I've since developed alternative options that I prefer. Another one of those options (Option C), was proposed by an editor, VeritasSapientia, who has been essentially inactive on Wikipedia for about two months. Neither Option A nor Option C gained any support in the previous RfC, so I've decided to omit both of them from this draft. Either option can certainly be re-added if anyone would like to see them included.
To keep things simple, I won't bother adding references to any of these options, but if anyone wants to see the references, let me know, and I'll add links to where the references can be found.
I'll leave the draft up for about a week. Anyone is welcome to add new options during that time. -- Jpcase ( talk) 16:05, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
Option A:
For third-trimester abortions, he supports the requirement that more than one physician attest that continued pregnancy would be "substantially and irremediably" harmful to a woman's health and opposes a provision of the proposed Repeal Act that would lower that requirement to a single physician. Northam opposes abortion after labor has begun but attracted intense criticism when he suggested that non-resuscitation and other measures were an option in cases of non-viable births with severe deformities. [a]
Option B:
For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. [b] In January 2019, Northam attracted intense criticism from Republican politicians when he suggested that non-resuscitation and other measures were an option in cases of non-viable births with severe deformities. [c]
Option C:
(This option would be to simply omit from the "Abortion" section any discussion of the comments that Northam made during his WTOP interview. The controversial comments would still be addressed, briefly, in the article's "Governor of Virginia" section.)
Option D:
For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. [d] During a January 2019 radio interview, Northam said that when third-trimester abortions are performed, "it's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable." He further explained that if such a pregnancy results in a delivery, "The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother." This statement drew intense criticism from Republican politicians nationwide, many of whom accused Northam of supporting infanticide.
Option E:
For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. [e] During a January 2019 radio interview, Northam said that when third-trimester abortions are performed, "it's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable." He further explained that if a pregnancy resulted in the delivery of a non-viable or severely deformed infant, "The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother." This statement drew intense criticism from Republican politicians nationwide, many of whom accused Northam of supporting infanticide.
Option F:
For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. [f] During a January 2019 radio interview, Northam said that third-trimester abortions may be done in cases of a non-viable fetus or severe deformity. If a delivery occurred in such cases, Northam further stated that, "The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother." This statement drew intense criticism from Republican politicians nationwide, many of whom accused Northam of supporting infanticide.
@ Gandydancer: How do you feel about using Option D? It seems that everyone else is in favor of it, so if we're all in agreement here, then I suppose that there isn't any need to open an official RfC. -- Jpcase ( talk) 15:20, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Gandydancer: @ Ozzie10aaaa: @ Sparkie82: @ XavierItzm: It seems like we were close to reaching a consensus in favor of using Option D, but Mojo Hand has pointed out that some of the language in Option D is overly vague. I'm inclined to agree with Mojo Hand on this. So I've added an Option E, which is almost identical to Option D. The only difference is that Option E replaces the phrase "such a pregnancy" with a description of the specific type of pregnancy that Northam was talking about. Can everyone who I just pinged let me know if you'd support Option E? If we can all agree on this, then I won't bother to open an RfC. -- Jpcase ( talk) 17:13, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
there may be a fetus that's non-viable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.
![]() | This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
Since last night, this article has undergone persistent disruptive editing from two IP accounts. The first of these edits can be seen here The first IP account reverted four different editors multiple times and has been warned twice on his or her talk page to refrain from disruptive editing. The second IP account has continued to add the exact same content as the first IP account. Neither of these accounts had ever been used before last night.
I've always allowed other people to handle these types of situations, so I'm not really sure what should be done. Should both accounts be blocked? Or should the article be temporarily protected? Is there some other, third option that would be best? Thanks. -- Jpcase ( talk) 13:06, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
On January 15, 2020, Northam declared a state of emergency before a peaceful assembly of Second Amendment activists protesting the Governor's prospective gun control measures.
The preceding November, Northam announced the introduction of eight gun control bills, including universal background checks and an assault weapons ban, among other measures. More than municipalities in Virginia declared themselves “Second Amendment sanctuaries” in response. In subsequent reports, Northam said localities would face repercussions if law enforcement officers don’t enforce gun control laws. “If we have constitutional laws on the books and law enforcement officers are not enforcing those laws on the books, then there are going to be consequences,” Northam said.
Northam's executive order forbids the presence of any weapons on the capitol grounds during the proposed assembly.
108.26.183.108 ( talk) 04:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
I agree that the more should be said in this article about the subject of guns, although I'm not sure that I support the proposed phrasing contained in the above-paragraphs. I would want to see much more context and detail added. -- Jpcase ( talk) 03:09, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
That Ralph Northam's slave-owning ancestor freed one of them to serve in the Civil War sounds a little too politically convenient. Is there a source for this? Any way of demonstrating that was his motive? DanMarshCTR ( talk) 19:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I'd never expect that a one-term governor of a mid-size state with a mid-size population would have perhaps have a longer article than the average POTUS does. There is so much junk here that does not need to be included and I believe that this page should be short and sweet. Same thing with Charlie Baker. Ak-eater06 ( talk) 22:51, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
This section is excessively focused on a niche issue that the majority of Americans accept as a safe and legal medical procedure. 200 words about his position on abortion is undue, and shows the influence of minority religious political extremists at work. Viriditas ( talk) 23:57, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I wonder. How many 'bleeping' times are we going to have to hide Northam's successor, between now & inauguration day. GoodDay ( talk) 04:49, 3 November 2021 (UTC)