![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Rachel, wife of Rabbi Akiva was copied or moved into Akiva ben Joseph with this edit on 22:17, 9 June 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on September 28, 2023. |
The "biography" strikes me as containing a healthy dose of legend. Can someone clarify what is and isn't established historical fact? Josh Cherry 02:48, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
He is not attested to outside of Mishnah, Midrash, and Talmud. Much like Jesus, who is not attested to outside of the New Testament, and who has even more fantastic claims made about him. Jayjg (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Blast! The very statement that "what they contain is legend" is POV. This article is obviously "according to the Talmud". What did you think? According to the awen gilayon (gospel)? hasofer 00:40, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Josh. The "biography" part of this article is a naive retelling of the talmudic sources with no hint to a text-critical or scholarly approach. I don't have the time to rewrite it in a way worthy of an encyclopedia but I wish somebody did. The way the text reads now, it's fit only for a cheder textbook.
I have to agree with those who are very skeptical of this article. Take the following passage for example:
"It was at dawn of the Jewish Day of Atonement when the burnt offering that day was to be the great Rebbi Akiva, the wise and considerate teacher and father of his people. He had attained the same age as Moses, one hundred twenty, yet his body was still powerful, his eyes undimmed and his spirit unbroken. They tied him to a stake, and the Roman torturers tore lumps of living flesh from him with red hot pincers. But no cry of pain escaped him. As the sun rose in the East, Rebbi Akiva put his hand over his eyes and cried out with a loud voice: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is One. Blessed be His Name for ever and ever. And thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might.'"
The following heroic exagerations are noted:
great, wise, considerate; 120...and still powerful; undimmed, unbroken; and tied...[yet his hands are placed over his eyes and with lumps of flesh missing no less]....
This sort of article is exactly that which leads people to question the validity of Wikipedia. Comic book writers need not apply. Maybe Wikipedia should be divided into a serious side and a non-serious side. Articles that remain silly should be relegated to the non-serious side until improved. Then they could be transfered to the serious side and locked with further commentary pending reasonable inspection. I like Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is too good a resource to allow it to be tainted by fiction writers.
I strongly agree with those objecting to legendary material as present. It is not enough that the sources are cited, most people don't know enough to determine the authority of these early rabbinical sources.
However I see no reason to merge. The article should make clear that the character is shrouded in legend, and the biographical details are stories. In short, it needs to be rewritten to look more like the article on Jesus.
There just isn't enough that's known reliably about the historical Akiba to do it any other way. He is primarily a literary character.
76.124.117.246 (
talk) 05:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I have redirect the the article `Aqiba ben Joseph to here. The aticle said:
`Aqiba ben Joseph (c. 50-132) was a Jewish Palestinian rabbi, of the circle known as tana. It is almost impossible to separate the true from the false in the numerous traditions respecting his life. He became the chief teacher in the rabbinical school of Jaffa, where, it is said, he had 24,000 scholars. Whatever their number, it seems certain that among them was the celebrated Rabbi Meir, and that through him and others `Aqiba exerted a great influence on the development of the doctrines embodied in the Mishnah. He sided with Simon bar Kokhba in the last Jewish revolt against Rome, recognized him as the Messiah, and acted as his sword-bearer. Being taken prisoner by the Romans under Sextus Julius Severus, he was flayed alive with circumstances of great cruelty, and met his fate, according to tradition, with marvellous steadfastness and composure. He is said by some to have been a hundred and twenty years old at the time of his death. He is one of the ten Jewish martyrs whose names occur in a penitential prayer still used in the synagogue service. `Aqiba was among the first to systematize the Jewish tradition, and he paved the way for the compilation of the Mishnah. From his school emanated the Greek translation of the scriptures by Aquila of Sinope.
[[Category:50 births|ben Joseph, 'Aquiba]] [[Category:132 deaths|ben Joseph, 'Aquiba]]
If you see anything that should be added here, please do so. Jon513 21:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added a cleanup notice to the article, as the biographical section does not attempt to sort hagiography from history. I know of the limitations of historical sources on Akiva, but at least an attempt should be made to summarize uncontroversial points in a historical section before embarking on the lengendary stuff from the Talmud. Taragüí @ 07:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I am going to try to fix some of the issues with this article. Let me take a crack at it, and then we'll see. — Dfass 02:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The article contains this:
His doctrine concerning the Jewish Messiah was the realistic and thoroughly Jewish one, as his declaration that Bar Kokba was the Messiah shows. He accordingly limited the Messianic age to forty years, as being within the scope of a man's life—similar to the reigns of David and Solomon—against the usual conception of a millennium ( Midr. Teh. xc. 15). A distinction is, however, to be made between the Messianic age and the future world (עולם הבא). This latter will come after the destruction of this world, lasting for 1,000 years ( R. H. 31a). To the future world all Israel will be admitted, with the exception of the generation of the Wilderness and the Ten Tribes ( Sanh. xi. 3, 110b). But even this future world is painted by Akiba in colors selected by his nationalist inclinations, for he makes Messiah (whom, according to Ezek. xxxvii. 24, he identifies with King David) the judge of all the heathen world ( Ḥag. 14a).
Could someone explain the first sentence to me and why it is valid to be in this article? The implication seems to me to be that Akiva was 100% correct in interpreting the Hebrew Bible's references to the coming Messiah. At the same time, though, it uses Akiva's embracement of a false Messiah as the actual Messiah as evidence that his views were 100% Jewish and therefore correct. This doesn't seem to make sense to me at all, unless the writer of this seems to think that choosing a false Messiah is Jewish (which I don't think was the intention whatsoever). Surely Akiva's declaration of Bar Kokba as Messiah was wrong, and not perfectly in line with the Hebrew Bible. Clarification welcome. -- DavidC99 ( talk) 19:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It's largely from the Jewish Encyclopedia article subsection "The Messianic Age and the Future World:
75.14.219.123 ( talk) 19:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Is the Jewish Encyclopedia old enough to be public domain? Large sections of the article match word-for-word with the JE article. That would seem a bit on the plagiarism side of things unless it is public domain and then simply citing the source would be sufficient.
Does anyone have the copyright information on the JE?
Theolog ( talk) 15:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Please do not return this information to the article without a citation.--
BirgitteSB 00:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was move to Akiva ben Joseph. Jafeluv ( talk) 15:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Akiba ben Joseph → Akiva ben Joseph — more correct transliteration - -shirulashem (talk) 23:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Why is this article name "Akiba"? The text uses "Akiva" mostly, and as far as I know that is more correct. Debresser ( talk) 17:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I have no problem with some ISO-standards mistakingly rending a "b", but according to Wikipedia guidelines we should stick to what is 1. correct and 2. widely know to the English reader. And we should be 3. consistent (at least within each article, and preferrably in the whole of Wikipedia). Debresser ( talk) 19:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I was tagging some books of Joseph Opatoshu (different revisions and translations). There is an article Bar Kokhba revolt. This article is using different other variants Relationship with Bar Kochba, Bar Kokba revolt maybe some others. Regards · לערי ריינהארט· T· m: Th· T· email me· 17:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
I've tagged a clause as being rather dubious due to being anachronistic:
This clearly is alluding to Calvinism, a Christian theology that is not known to have existed in the first century, or even the first millennium. As such, Rabbi Akiva could not possibly have been opposing it during his life time, which is what this section seems to imply. -- Kendrick7 talk 18:45, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I previously removed the sentence re: founded rabbinical Judaism. Rabbinical Judaism was not 'founded' by a person. The original Judaism is orthodox Judaism, which is synonymous with what you have called rabbinical Judaism. Since the inception of Judaism as a religion (which was formally at Mt Sinai, when the Jews received the Torah), what you have deemed rabbinical Judaism has always been the case. Both the Oral Torah and the Written Torah were given at Mt Sinai (according to Judaism), and the fact that this was only written centuries later does not mean that it was established centuries later. Rabbi's existed from the time of Mt Sinai (Moses as the 'head' rabbi of sorts), with the 70 elders also being rabbis, and their methods and authority having been established at Mt Sinai. Read the Torah before make claims to the contrary. Karaite Judaism (which exists minimally today) was an offshoot of Judaism back then just like Reform and Conservative Judaism are today. They do not represent Authentic Torah Judaism at all, and thus while they need to be distinguished as Karaite, Reform or Conservative Judaism - Judaism itself does not need to be distinguished as rabbinical Judaism, but rather only out of necessity as orthodox Judaism in order to distinguish it from the offshoots of Judaism.
The term rabbinical Judaism is offensive on a number of levels, and to posit that it was ever founded at any time other than at Mt Sinai is contrary to Jewish belief and what is found in the Torah itself. The article on rabbinical Judaism should thus also be deleted and any relevant and true information inserted into the article of orthodox Judaism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.54.96 ( talk) 22:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the IP adding lines like
This fails some policies of Wikipedia (below).
Finding or writing up historical ironies is not our business here. these overarching stories end up as minefields and it's not a good idea to treat all attachable topics on the articles on persons with some significance and documentation within Rabbinic Judaism, when much wider areas should be assessed. This is one of the problems of what we call Giving unde weight.
What you wrote clearly a peace of Original Research, which is what wikipedia tries to avoid. At that, it is at best the result of Synthesis of published material, also sanctioned on Wikipedia. At worst it is a Fringe theory, which seems most the case as you don't indicate the use of any Reliable Source. Its religious or ideological flavor goes against Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
When a conflict like here arises, users are expected to use this talk page to decide on a solution. If you respond to this message that would be a good second chapter in your efforts. If you revert the article back to your version without response, I will request page protection. trespassers william ( talk) 16:12, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move over redirect to rename. — Maile ( talk) 12:21, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Why isn't this page called Rabbi Akiva? This is how he is most commonly known and cited in the Talmud. Rabbi Akiva gets 428,000 ghits, Akiva ben Joseph 249,000 ghits. Akiva ben Joseph is also a weird combination of Hebrew and English. We have Rabbi Tarfon, why not Rabbi Akiva? Yoninah ( talk) 00:16, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
I do apologize for wandering into an area in which I have little familiarity and certainly not the expertise to properly remedy this, which is why I have posted here. I noticed an edit to this page; upon comparing the diffs, noted that the old version leveled an accusation against the Septuagint, "the errors and inaccuracies in which frequently distorted the true meaning of Scripture", and put quotation marks around "proofs" to imply to the reader that Christian defenses based on the Septuagint were invalid. The new edit responded to this by providing a defense of the Septuagint and by equivocating on how Christians were using it. The diff in question. Neither is necessary (and I noticed the apparent lack of citation for Akiva actually accusing the Septuagint of such, which is why I removed both assertions). It is sufficient to provide phrasing e.g. "Akiva was motivated by a belief that Christian defenses based on the Apocrypha were invalid due to the presence of errors and distortions in the text" or "Akiva believed the Septuagint to contain errors and inaccuracies which distorted the true meaning of Scripture" rather than having Wikipedia itself assert such a statement as fact. It is of course necessary to also provide citations to show that this was indeed Akiva's opinion.
The article itself seems to have a bit of an issue with tone, e.g. WP:PEACOCK for describing Aquila as a "devoted talmid" or "a man after Akiva's own heart" - I've substituted "disciple of Akiva", but please correct if a different term should be used. Also there seems to be some WP:POV issues, e.g. I'm not sure what to make of the modesty section. IMHO, It is perfectly valid (and desired!) to explain Akiva's point of view, but not to present it in first-person here as fact -- I hope that distinction is clear. Anyway, I made a small attempt (more of a hackjob, really) to remedy this in that specific section, but this article as a whole deserves a lot more work than I am able to give it. Please forgive and correct any blatant errors on my part. Thank you,
-- Joren ( talk) 20:13, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There seems to be a dispute whether or not this article should have a section entitled "Quotes" and where it incorporates the following quotes taken from this 2nd century Jewish scholar. One editor has voiced his concern that such quotes used in the article do not look "encyclopedic." Perhaps rewording of some entries may be necessary. Opinions are welcome. Davidbena ( talk) 01:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Jesting and levity accustom a man to lewdness. The tradition is a fence around the Law (Torah); Tithes are a fence around riches; vows are a fence around abstinence; a fence around wisdom is silence. [1]
All things are foreseen [by God], yet the choice is given [unto man], and the world is judged on [its] merits; yet, all is according to the preponderance of works, rather than the deed. [2]
A plebeian cannot be pious, neither can a bashful man learn, nor a stern man teach! [3]
Poverty is comely unto Jacob's daughter as a red lace on the head of a white horse. [4]
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself (Leviticus 19:18) - This is the all-embracing principle of the divine law. [5]
Good humor is a safeguard to one's honor. [6]
More than what a disciple [7] desires to learn, [8] his mentor [9] desires to teach. [10] [11]
Modesty is a favorite theme with Rabbi Akiva, and he reverts to it again and again:
Take your place a few seats below your rank until you are bidden to take a higher place; for it is better that they should say to you 'Come up higher' than that they should bid you 'Go down lower'. [12] [13]
He who esteems himself highly on account of his knowledge is like a corpse lying on the wayside: the traveler turns his head away in disgust, and walks quickly by. [12] [14]
A further example of Rabbi Akiva's oratory skills is in his funeral address over his son Simon. To the large assembly gathered on the occasion, he said: [12]
Brethren of the house of Israel, listen to me. Not because I am a scholar have ye appeared here so numerously; for there are those here more learned than I. Nor because I am a wealthy man; for there are many more wealthy than I. The people of the south know Akiva; but whence should the people of Galilee know him? The men are acquainted with him; but how shall the women and children I see here be said to be acquainted with him? Still I know that your reward shall be great, for ye have given yourselves the trouble to come simply in order to do honor to the Torah and to fulfill a religious duty. [12] [15]
References
{{
cite book}}
: |last=
has generic name (
help)
{{
cite book}}
: |last=
has generic name (
help)
{{
cite book}}
: |last=
has generic name (
help)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: |last=
has generic name (
help)
je
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Davidbena ( talk) 01:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Rachel, wife of Rabbi Akiva was copied or moved into Akiva ben Joseph with this edit on 22:17, 9 June 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on September 28, 2023. |
The "biography" strikes me as containing a healthy dose of legend. Can someone clarify what is and isn't established historical fact? Josh Cherry 02:48, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
He is not attested to outside of Mishnah, Midrash, and Talmud. Much like Jesus, who is not attested to outside of the New Testament, and who has even more fantastic claims made about him. Jayjg (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Blast! The very statement that "what they contain is legend" is POV. This article is obviously "according to the Talmud". What did you think? According to the awen gilayon (gospel)? hasofer 00:40, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Josh. The "biography" part of this article is a naive retelling of the talmudic sources with no hint to a text-critical or scholarly approach. I don't have the time to rewrite it in a way worthy of an encyclopedia but I wish somebody did. The way the text reads now, it's fit only for a cheder textbook.
I have to agree with those who are very skeptical of this article. Take the following passage for example:
"It was at dawn of the Jewish Day of Atonement when the burnt offering that day was to be the great Rebbi Akiva, the wise and considerate teacher and father of his people. He had attained the same age as Moses, one hundred twenty, yet his body was still powerful, his eyes undimmed and his spirit unbroken. They tied him to a stake, and the Roman torturers tore lumps of living flesh from him with red hot pincers. But no cry of pain escaped him. As the sun rose in the East, Rebbi Akiva put his hand over his eyes and cried out with a loud voice: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is One. Blessed be His Name for ever and ever. And thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might.'"
The following heroic exagerations are noted:
great, wise, considerate; 120...and still powerful; undimmed, unbroken; and tied...[yet his hands are placed over his eyes and with lumps of flesh missing no less]....
This sort of article is exactly that which leads people to question the validity of Wikipedia. Comic book writers need not apply. Maybe Wikipedia should be divided into a serious side and a non-serious side. Articles that remain silly should be relegated to the non-serious side until improved. Then they could be transfered to the serious side and locked with further commentary pending reasonable inspection. I like Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is too good a resource to allow it to be tainted by fiction writers.
I strongly agree with those objecting to legendary material as present. It is not enough that the sources are cited, most people don't know enough to determine the authority of these early rabbinical sources.
However I see no reason to merge. The article should make clear that the character is shrouded in legend, and the biographical details are stories. In short, it needs to be rewritten to look more like the article on Jesus.
There just isn't enough that's known reliably about the historical Akiba to do it any other way. He is primarily a literary character.
76.124.117.246 (
talk) 05:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I have redirect the the article `Aqiba ben Joseph to here. The aticle said:
`Aqiba ben Joseph (c. 50-132) was a Jewish Palestinian rabbi, of the circle known as tana. It is almost impossible to separate the true from the false in the numerous traditions respecting his life. He became the chief teacher in the rabbinical school of Jaffa, where, it is said, he had 24,000 scholars. Whatever their number, it seems certain that among them was the celebrated Rabbi Meir, and that through him and others `Aqiba exerted a great influence on the development of the doctrines embodied in the Mishnah. He sided with Simon bar Kokhba in the last Jewish revolt against Rome, recognized him as the Messiah, and acted as his sword-bearer. Being taken prisoner by the Romans under Sextus Julius Severus, he was flayed alive with circumstances of great cruelty, and met his fate, according to tradition, with marvellous steadfastness and composure. He is said by some to have been a hundred and twenty years old at the time of his death. He is one of the ten Jewish martyrs whose names occur in a penitential prayer still used in the synagogue service. `Aqiba was among the first to systematize the Jewish tradition, and he paved the way for the compilation of the Mishnah. From his school emanated the Greek translation of the scriptures by Aquila of Sinope.
[[Category:50 births|ben Joseph, 'Aquiba]] [[Category:132 deaths|ben Joseph, 'Aquiba]]
If you see anything that should be added here, please do so. Jon513 21:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added a cleanup notice to the article, as the biographical section does not attempt to sort hagiography from history. I know of the limitations of historical sources on Akiva, but at least an attempt should be made to summarize uncontroversial points in a historical section before embarking on the lengendary stuff from the Talmud. Taragüí @ 07:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I am going to try to fix some of the issues with this article. Let me take a crack at it, and then we'll see. — Dfass 02:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The article contains this:
His doctrine concerning the Jewish Messiah was the realistic and thoroughly Jewish one, as his declaration that Bar Kokba was the Messiah shows. He accordingly limited the Messianic age to forty years, as being within the scope of a man's life—similar to the reigns of David and Solomon—against the usual conception of a millennium ( Midr. Teh. xc. 15). A distinction is, however, to be made between the Messianic age and the future world (עולם הבא). This latter will come after the destruction of this world, lasting for 1,000 years ( R. H. 31a). To the future world all Israel will be admitted, with the exception of the generation of the Wilderness and the Ten Tribes ( Sanh. xi. 3, 110b). But even this future world is painted by Akiba in colors selected by his nationalist inclinations, for he makes Messiah (whom, according to Ezek. xxxvii. 24, he identifies with King David) the judge of all the heathen world ( Ḥag. 14a).
Could someone explain the first sentence to me and why it is valid to be in this article? The implication seems to me to be that Akiva was 100% correct in interpreting the Hebrew Bible's references to the coming Messiah. At the same time, though, it uses Akiva's embracement of a false Messiah as the actual Messiah as evidence that his views were 100% Jewish and therefore correct. This doesn't seem to make sense to me at all, unless the writer of this seems to think that choosing a false Messiah is Jewish (which I don't think was the intention whatsoever). Surely Akiva's declaration of Bar Kokba as Messiah was wrong, and not perfectly in line with the Hebrew Bible. Clarification welcome. -- DavidC99 ( talk) 19:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It's largely from the Jewish Encyclopedia article subsection "The Messianic Age and the Future World:
75.14.219.123 ( talk) 19:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Is the Jewish Encyclopedia old enough to be public domain? Large sections of the article match word-for-word with the JE article. That would seem a bit on the plagiarism side of things unless it is public domain and then simply citing the source would be sufficient.
Does anyone have the copyright information on the JE?
Theolog ( talk) 15:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Please do not return this information to the article without a citation.--
BirgitteSB 00:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was move to Akiva ben Joseph. Jafeluv ( talk) 15:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Akiba ben Joseph → Akiva ben Joseph — more correct transliteration - -shirulashem (talk) 23:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Why is this article name "Akiba"? The text uses "Akiva" mostly, and as far as I know that is more correct. Debresser ( talk) 17:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I have no problem with some ISO-standards mistakingly rending a "b", but according to Wikipedia guidelines we should stick to what is 1. correct and 2. widely know to the English reader. And we should be 3. consistent (at least within each article, and preferrably in the whole of Wikipedia). Debresser ( talk) 19:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I was tagging some books of Joseph Opatoshu (different revisions and translations). There is an article Bar Kokhba revolt. This article is using different other variants Relationship with Bar Kochba, Bar Kokba revolt maybe some others. Regards · לערי ריינהארט· T· m: Th· T· email me· 17:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
I've tagged a clause as being rather dubious due to being anachronistic:
This clearly is alluding to Calvinism, a Christian theology that is not known to have existed in the first century, or even the first millennium. As such, Rabbi Akiva could not possibly have been opposing it during his life time, which is what this section seems to imply. -- Kendrick7 talk 18:45, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I previously removed the sentence re: founded rabbinical Judaism. Rabbinical Judaism was not 'founded' by a person. The original Judaism is orthodox Judaism, which is synonymous with what you have called rabbinical Judaism. Since the inception of Judaism as a religion (which was formally at Mt Sinai, when the Jews received the Torah), what you have deemed rabbinical Judaism has always been the case. Both the Oral Torah and the Written Torah were given at Mt Sinai (according to Judaism), and the fact that this was only written centuries later does not mean that it was established centuries later. Rabbi's existed from the time of Mt Sinai (Moses as the 'head' rabbi of sorts), with the 70 elders also being rabbis, and their methods and authority having been established at Mt Sinai. Read the Torah before make claims to the contrary. Karaite Judaism (which exists minimally today) was an offshoot of Judaism back then just like Reform and Conservative Judaism are today. They do not represent Authentic Torah Judaism at all, and thus while they need to be distinguished as Karaite, Reform or Conservative Judaism - Judaism itself does not need to be distinguished as rabbinical Judaism, but rather only out of necessity as orthodox Judaism in order to distinguish it from the offshoots of Judaism.
The term rabbinical Judaism is offensive on a number of levels, and to posit that it was ever founded at any time other than at Mt Sinai is contrary to Jewish belief and what is found in the Torah itself. The article on rabbinical Judaism should thus also be deleted and any relevant and true information inserted into the article of orthodox Judaism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.54.96 ( talk) 22:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the IP adding lines like
This fails some policies of Wikipedia (below).
Finding or writing up historical ironies is not our business here. these overarching stories end up as minefields and it's not a good idea to treat all attachable topics on the articles on persons with some significance and documentation within Rabbinic Judaism, when much wider areas should be assessed. This is one of the problems of what we call Giving unde weight.
What you wrote clearly a peace of Original Research, which is what wikipedia tries to avoid. At that, it is at best the result of Synthesis of published material, also sanctioned on Wikipedia. At worst it is a Fringe theory, which seems most the case as you don't indicate the use of any Reliable Source. Its religious or ideological flavor goes against Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
When a conflict like here arises, users are expected to use this talk page to decide on a solution. If you respond to this message that would be a good second chapter in your efforts. If you revert the article back to your version without response, I will request page protection. trespassers william ( talk) 16:12, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move over redirect to rename. — Maile ( talk) 12:21, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Why isn't this page called Rabbi Akiva? This is how he is most commonly known and cited in the Talmud. Rabbi Akiva gets 428,000 ghits, Akiva ben Joseph 249,000 ghits. Akiva ben Joseph is also a weird combination of Hebrew and English. We have Rabbi Tarfon, why not Rabbi Akiva? Yoninah ( talk) 00:16, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
I do apologize for wandering into an area in which I have little familiarity and certainly not the expertise to properly remedy this, which is why I have posted here. I noticed an edit to this page; upon comparing the diffs, noted that the old version leveled an accusation against the Septuagint, "the errors and inaccuracies in which frequently distorted the true meaning of Scripture", and put quotation marks around "proofs" to imply to the reader that Christian defenses based on the Septuagint were invalid. The new edit responded to this by providing a defense of the Septuagint and by equivocating on how Christians were using it. The diff in question. Neither is necessary (and I noticed the apparent lack of citation for Akiva actually accusing the Septuagint of such, which is why I removed both assertions). It is sufficient to provide phrasing e.g. "Akiva was motivated by a belief that Christian defenses based on the Apocrypha were invalid due to the presence of errors and distortions in the text" or "Akiva believed the Septuagint to contain errors and inaccuracies which distorted the true meaning of Scripture" rather than having Wikipedia itself assert such a statement as fact. It is of course necessary to also provide citations to show that this was indeed Akiva's opinion.
The article itself seems to have a bit of an issue with tone, e.g. WP:PEACOCK for describing Aquila as a "devoted talmid" or "a man after Akiva's own heart" - I've substituted "disciple of Akiva", but please correct if a different term should be used. Also there seems to be some WP:POV issues, e.g. I'm not sure what to make of the modesty section. IMHO, It is perfectly valid (and desired!) to explain Akiva's point of view, but not to present it in first-person here as fact -- I hope that distinction is clear. Anyway, I made a small attempt (more of a hackjob, really) to remedy this in that specific section, but this article as a whole deserves a lot more work than I am able to give it. Please forgive and correct any blatant errors on my part. Thank you,
-- Joren ( talk) 20:13, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There seems to be a dispute whether or not this article should have a section entitled "Quotes" and where it incorporates the following quotes taken from this 2nd century Jewish scholar. One editor has voiced his concern that such quotes used in the article do not look "encyclopedic." Perhaps rewording of some entries may be necessary. Opinions are welcome. Davidbena ( talk) 01:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Jesting and levity accustom a man to lewdness. The tradition is a fence around the Law (Torah); Tithes are a fence around riches; vows are a fence around abstinence; a fence around wisdom is silence. [1]
All things are foreseen [by God], yet the choice is given [unto man], and the world is judged on [its] merits; yet, all is according to the preponderance of works, rather than the deed. [2]
A plebeian cannot be pious, neither can a bashful man learn, nor a stern man teach! [3]
Poverty is comely unto Jacob's daughter as a red lace on the head of a white horse. [4]
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself (Leviticus 19:18) - This is the all-embracing principle of the divine law. [5]
Good humor is a safeguard to one's honor. [6]
More than what a disciple [7] desires to learn, [8] his mentor [9] desires to teach. [10] [11]
Modesty is a favorite theme with Rabbi Akiva, and he reverts to it again and again:
Take your place a few seats below your rank until you are bidden to take a higher place; for it is better that they should say to you 'Come up higher' than that they should bid you 'Go down lower'. [12] [13]
He who esteems himself highly on account of his knowledge is like a corpse lying on the wayside: the traveler turns his head away in disgust, and walks quickly by. [12] [14]
A further example of Rabbi Akiva's oratory skills is in his funeral address over his son Simon. To the large assembly gathered on the occasion, he said: [12]
Brethren of the house of Israel, listen to me. Not because I am a scholar have ye appeared here so numerously; for there are those here more learned than I. Nor because I am a wealthy man; for there are many more wealthy than I. The people of the south know Akiva; but whence should the people of Galilee know him? The men are acquainted with him; but how shall the women and children I see here be said to be acquainted with him? Still I know that your reward shall be great, for ye have given yourselves the trouble to come simply in order to do honor to the Torah and to fulfill a religious duty. [12] [15]
References
{{
cite book}}
: |last=
has generic name (
help)
{{
cite book}}
: |last=
has generic name (
help)
{{
cite book}}
: |last=
has generic name (
help)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: |last=
has generic name (
help)
je
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Davidbena ( talk) 01:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)