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I improved the section titles to conform to WP neutrality requirements ... so I think the article is good in that regard. I did not change any content. The big remaining problem with this article is that it reads like a long list of criticisms by Western sources. Although those are valid and belong in the article, RT is a global network, so reviews/assessments from around the world are needed to round out the article and make it encyclopedic. Maybe inquiries could be made at other WPs for input ... e.g. to get translations of their RT articles & sources. -- Noleander ( talk) 15:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I used some of your section titles and put "expansion" note where new info is needed in my revert to the October 12 version and good changes to that version. I actually HAVE some of that info spread out over several "add" files which have to put together, plus do some more research since accidentally deleted a whole file of new add material. If at first you don't succeed... CarolMooreDC 18:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I put back the big list with a "discuss note" so here's the discussion:
Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 18:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
What about a "Staff" section listing a few top-tier managers/executives? At least name them. I think there was a section with 3 listed in the prior version. -- Noleander ( talk) 18:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Another editor deleted some of RT's statements about itself as self-serving (two or possibly all three "citation needed" sentences) - as opposed to, say its claims about viewership. Because of the intervening contretempts I never got around to discussing this, or the fact I doubt they'd lie about these things. Any thoughts?
Also I know there is at least one, probably more, RT Opinions and/or article about the Alexei Navalny issue that is relevant to putting in a paragraph on him and the protests and Simonyan's tweets. As long as it is clear it's RT's news or opinion story, and it is more a response to allegations than an assertion of what is true, I don't see a problem with using that material. Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 18:50, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I have done some reading in the RT Wikipedia article in Russian regarding funding and ownership, and did some more digging. I think the intro/lead in English is still a mess and inaccurate Here is the information i managed to gather : So we have the article quoting RIA Novosti -
"RIA-Novosti said in a statement issued last month that it is "neither a sponsor nor a backer of Russia Today" and merely participated in establishing the channel as an Autonomous Non-Profit Organization, which provided for its complete legal, editorial and operational independence." http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/03/23/230310_rt.html
RIA Novosti even published an article on the inaccuracy of the Wikipedia English article here itself (good read) : http://en.rian.ru/agency_news/20120206/171179459.html
I believe that RT in Russia is officially/legally an "Autonomous Non-Profit Organisation (ANO) “TV-Novosti”" as also stated in their disclaimer http://rt.com/about/disclaimer/
A quote from a senior government official from 2005 :
"Russia Today will come as an independent company, said Mikhail Seslavinsky, in charge of the Federal Agency for the Press and Mass Communications.
The federal government intends to call the State Duma, parliament's lower house, to amend the year's federal budget for Russia Today financing. The channel will be funded through the Federal Agency for the Press and Mass Communications, by grants and from advertising revenues." http://www.rianovosti.com/society/20050607/40486831.html
the above statement is connected to this: /info/en/?search=Federal_budget_of_Russia
And the 3 references in RT Russian Wikipedia article Do show that they are (RT and RIA Novosti) 2 separate entities having 2 separate budgets : http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=lenta.ru%2Fnews%2F2010%2F08%2F06%2Fsmi%2F&safe=off
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=www.infox.ru%2Fbusiness%2Fmedia%2F2009%2F01%2F21%2FRussia_Today_ekonomi.phtml&safe=off 79.181.8.18 ( talk) 03:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Doing some detective work with Google translator in Russian , I found Margarita Simonyan's boss. Basically RT channel is owned by (ANO) TV-Novosti. "ANO" is a legal definition in Russia "Autonomous non-profit organization" /info/en/?search=Nonprofit_organization#Russia
The General director (highest executive position in a company, analogous to a U.S CEO) of ANO TV-Novosti is Mr. Sergey Frolov. from the Federal Agency on Press and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation own website : http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.fapmc.ru/rospechat/newsandevents/media/2007/08/item3356.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%25D0%25A1%25D0%25B5%25D1%2580%25D0%25B3%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B9%2B%25D0%25A4%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BB%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%2522%2B%2522%25D0%25A0%25D0%2598%25D0%2590-%25D0%259D%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2522%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26tbo%3Dd%26sout%3D1%26biw%3D1061%26bih%3D541&sa=X&ei=7nKdUJ3kL8SF4AS53YGIBA&ved=0CGsQ7gEwCA&
I even found the Deputy Director-General , Mrs. Elena Sokolova
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://sokolova-dev-tsukanova.moikrug.ru/%3Fnocookiesupport%3Dyes&usg=ALkJrhiH4MSGNLh9PqEU95fERT6dKyM3oA
79.183.1.105 (
talk)
18:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, I suppose, if that's what it was, Carolmooredc. A list of notable guests invited on a network, even if reliably sourced, is in no way encyclopedic. Do you care to add such a list to the BBC article? or even Newsnight? Or Late Show with David Letterman? Come on. It reads like resume padding. Drmies ( talk) 05:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Re: This diff: First, this is a minor incident only notable because it got an Ambassador on the air; and not really much of a controversy or criticism. My one sentence "In early 2012 Michael McFaul, the newly appointed US ambassador to Russia, rejected Margaret Simonyan’s tweeted charge that the United States government had paid for opposition leader Alexei Navalny’s 2010 Yale World Fellows Program semester." is more than enough info for this article and the rest is WP:Undue silliness, in my opinion.
Plus, I find it rather odd that an AnonIP from Bezquez Intnl has added all that negative and even silly detail to the McFaul incident, when AnonIPs from Bezquez usually would add positive info. It was another (twice blocked) editor who always wanted to added the full quotes of the tweet exchange, so I have to wonder who is behind that edit. Does it rise to the level of asking for a sock puppet check? Or did that previous editor just forget to sign in? CarolMooreDC 16:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
References
The entire section looks like cheerleading for RT, especially the lede paragraph. I've have placed in a POV tag for now on the section and reported the user who has been making these changes to the ANI, although all other third-party observers are welcomed to comment on the ANI. Festermunk ( talk) 17:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
As per WP:BRD and consensus on either the relevant sub-sections on the RT talk page or through the RT section on the DNR, I am going to restore and modify all of the aforementioned text that was achieved through consensus, but overridden through the unilateral edits by the user CarolMooreDC. Specifically, I'm going to make the following changes:
An extra note, as most of these requested changes already have consensus, if I don't receive a response to the points I'm raising then as per Wikipedia:Silence and consensus, I'm going to tentatively reinstate the changes. Festermunk ( talk) 01:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Noleander has a good idea. As for specific responses:
2) If you want to be logical, please reply to what editors actually wrote. AGAIN: Re first sentence of Reception lead, Positive comments do NOT just come as a reaction to negative ones. That is the simple logic. Or we could just make a separate section on positive comments then? Obviously sentence about their being criticism is relevant; where to put two replies is up for discussion. As for the rest, the DNR is old history now, and it was just you and me - and a volunteer dispute resolver who has now decided to become an editor of this page. There are other editors here though I can certainly understand why with your aggressive and hostile attitude they might want to avoid interacting with you. That is the way you disrupt collaboration on a page. CarolMooreDC 17:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
So that's my view, as I've stated repeatedly. CarolMooreDC 18:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section? Festermunk ( talk) 19:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
A couple of us had had enough as of yesterday and independently took Festermunk to ANI and 3rrn. So he's indefinitely blocked for edit warring and I DIDN'T HEAR IT... He had a few points that were worth discussing and I tried to discuss them above but he preferred to ignore my attempts to collaborate. So just to be collaborative, below are the things people should comment on if they are problematic or need tweaking:
From the Reception>Objectivity section : "After the 2005 announcement the station would be launched, the U.S. government-sponsored VOA[86]". really? just sponsored? sponsored is a nice whitewash for the word funded. but it is not just funded . it is owned by the US government :
"The IBB supports the day-to-day operations of Voice of America" "The position of IBB Director is appointed by the president of the United States, with Senate confirmation" International Broadcasting Bureau
The IBB is part of the Broadcasting Board of Governors, guess who is a member of the board of governors ? Hillary Rodham Clinton the 67th United States Secretary of State. http://www.bbg.gov/about-the-agency/ Should be - "the U.S. government-owned/controlled VOA" 109.67.33.28 ( talk) 19:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
VOA is frankly sponsored, funded and subject to the control of the US and reflects US POV consistent with State Department outreach, there is nothing sinister or deceptive about that. However, it strives for legitimate journalism which is factually objective while consistent with foreign policy of the US. That does NOT make it the equivalent of propaganda organs which are funded by totalitarian or authoritarian governments. In fact, it is arguably more even handed, NPOV or RS to some degree, than for instance Fox News or the Washington Times or any Rupert Murdoch typer operation. There is nothing absurd, foolish or naive about CarolMooreDC's choice of words and I hope that your pit bull approach with this thread does not deter her from taking an interest in how, exactly, you intend to qualify the characterization of VOA. Wikidgood ( talk) 00:33, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I added subsections to the History section and spread it out slightly, as it was very cramped and very long. I am not 100% sure about the subsection titles, any suggestions of better names would be welcome. Hentheden ( talk) 22:11, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
How did Russia Today manage to get shown on almost all UK Travelodge TVs in the early part of the 21st century, even sometimes to the exclusion of nationally-local BBC News 24 which was also available on the "freeview" setup that the Travelodge TV setup was using? Was it part of a global Travelodge/RT deal? I think I've briefly seen an explanation for this in reliable sources somewhere, but it needs to be fleshed out properly and mentioned in the article. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 23:32, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Two quotes from RT Editor-in-Chief Margarita Simonyan, but im not sure where to add them : "Simonyan said it was good that countries like Russia are spending money to make their voices heard "after so many years in which the international media scene was reduced to the points of view of Anglo-Saxon countries. For five years, I have been watching BBC and CNN news every day — they have almost exactly the same topics, the same wording, the same order. And for so many years they were the only international TV news sources. … It’s great that there is a channel with a different view, different experts and a different order."
"In regards to Western media criticism of RT's "Coverage of conspiracy theories" Margarita Simonyan, the channel's editor-in-chief argued that the channel’s policy was merely to provide a platform for marginalized points of view that otherwise got little coverage, like the Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists. "I personally do not believe them. But I believe that if there are people out there who think so but do not get into mainstream media, they deserve an audience — and we should give them a forum,”. Simonyan noted that viewer resonance and audience numbers confirmed that the policy is right. She also added that giving airtime to “truthers” was morally comparable to Western media coverage of the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and two other cities that killed 293 people. "What about Western media reports saying that Vladimir Putin was behind the bombings?". http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/03/23/230310_rt.html 79.180.0.84 ( talk) 00:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
...this sentence from the lead: "RT, according to its corporate profile, "covers the major issues of our time for viewers wishing to question more."" What they do (or don't do) according to their corporate profile is not of any relevance to us or the reader, and the sentence contains only corporate fluff. Right now it's the first sentence of the second paragraph; as it happens, the second sentence works just as well, even better, to open that paragraph, describing that the network does. Not that I want to get involved with this article, of course. Drmies ( talk) 02:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Hey, Mr. Bezeq International, you can NOT revert other's material more than 3 times in 24 hours. Please read and study WP:3rr. Adding new material is ok if it doesn't delete other existing material. If you remember a few weeks back the article was protected so AnonIPs couldn't edit at all and that will happen again if 3rr violations continue. So please a) stop doing it and b) consider getting a registered user name so we don't get confused and have to keep checking if it's you or some other AnonIp. Thanks! CarolMooreDC 04:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
The following paragraph was in Reception>Objectivity section : ANO TV-Novosti (RT TV's parent Organization) General director (CEO) Mr. Sergey Frolov has stated "Our responsibility is not to be someone's lawyer or prosecutor. It is too stupid to hold information, because then you have to repeat it from others. We do our best to respond swiftly and impartially. Present the facts and not speculate or theorize. Actually, the problem is very simple: If we start to filter news or silent something - people will switch to CNN or BBC." http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.broadcasting.ru/newstext.php%3Fnews_id%3D25223/
Carolmooredc has reverted this On the grounds that "remove Novosti leader quote since not clear he's talking about RT and not other branches".
I think you made a mistake, and confusing RIA-Novosti headed by Svetlana Mironyuk with ANO TV-Novosti (Which ownes only RT Network) Headed by Sergey Frolov. The cited source Interview is all and only about RT TV. 109.65.25.151 ( talk) 15:53, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Anyone have information on the mass firing of most or all of the RT Reporters employed a month ago? This seems to correspond to a sudden shift in RT Focus. Press TV seems to have undergone a similar purge. This coup is very mysterious. I am trying to track down RT Reporters and ask them what happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.4.7 ( talk) 15:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I noticed that there is another name of the article Controversies_and_criticisms_of_RT. If someone finds its appropriate, then a separate article with the name should be created. Now it is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.0.101.218 ( talk) 13:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Can we include a para about how anti-EU RT is - and how anti non-white/immigration it appears to be too. I just noticed it was officially endorsed by British National Party leader Nick Griffin as 'the only real news channel!' i.e the only one that actually gives his party significant airtime.
What about including the fact that RT have a strong web presence especially on YouTube — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxr033 ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that it is correct that there is an anti-EU bias. RT is not biased, it is simply a Russian propaganda channel. The extent of distortion in recent months, in particular with reference to Ukraine, has been laughable. RT has no credibility as a news outlet. Interestingly there was a report, which I cannot now locate, which suggested that the degree of disinformation is worse with RT now than with Pravda at the height of the Cold War. I suggest that the article be edited to reflect that status. Royalcourtier ( talk) 03:11, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
"Viewers" is defined as "Someone who has tuned in a minimum of one time". I think it's misleading to lump regular views and one-time viewers as 'viewers' because it implies they all watch it when that might not be true. I can't find any neutral sources for the '2 million in the UK' statistic, other than from RT (which has a dead link), apparently RT claims it 'doesn't release figures' or something to that extent. Any ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxr033 ( talk • contribs) 15:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I removed the claim that "it is the most popular news channel in Britain after the BBC and Sky". What it actually says in the cited source (New Statesman) is "It is, it boasts, the most popular news channel in Britain after the BBC and Sky." i.e. this is referring back to a "boast" from RT itself.-- Shantavira| feed me 19:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Per this diff, putting that long ANO "TV-Novosti" (АНО "ТВ-Новости") in the info box title is totally WP:Undue; putting it in the description isn't really necessary; it belongs in the lead. This is English wikipedia. Why is User:TarzanASG insisting on putting Russian names in those two places?? CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 01:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Basically that's in there because WP:RS call it a propaganda source. If one objects, the best thing to do is find a couple WP:RS calling the BBC, NPR, and other govt sponsored/supported TV stations elsewhere propaganda, put them in those article and then add the category. That's what I'd do if had the time and energy :-) CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 18:55, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I just wanted to leave a note here after I saw the page history, in case anyone wants to discuss this. There was previously a list in the introduction of what looked like every important person ever to appear on the channel. I trimmed all but a few (the ones not citing YouTube) and used one of the other existing sources to note the "propaganda" claims. There should probably be a more balanced layout, but at least it looks better for now. Aiwen Zhang ( talk) 22:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps people would listen if you articulated your concerns here instead of being disruptive. Just an observation from someone not involved in your dispute. Cheers. Aiwen Zhang ( talk) 04:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Soni. I did some reading and Wikipedia's guidelines state that the introduction should be a summary of the article -- of which the trivia list is only one part. I also believe there is a policy about not citing primary sources, which supports my culling of the YouTube clips. Finally, if we are supposed to represent the contents of the article in the intro, the disproportionate criticism section merits a passing mention per my original edit. The current version without any guests or criticism is fine by me though. Aiwen Zhang ( talk) 08:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I just looked over the paragraph that was being argued over before I wandered into this mess and it's actually quite flimsy in light of Wikipedia's guidelines on subject weight.
US Jewish groups think everyone is anti-Israel and at best the wording is dishonest. Please discuss before re-adding the paragraph. Or keep ignoring the talk page and go back to accusing people of vandalism. Aiwen Zhang ( talk) 18:43, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
In light of this, I'm surprised that there isn't any section about how controversial the network. At least there needs to be a debate about this. Royalenlightenment ( talk) 17:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Also, why is there no mention of anything of the "reception section" in the intro section given how long the reception section is? And for the reception section, why can't you just make a section that is for RT and another one that perceives it negatively? That seems to be the point of a reception section... Royalenlightenment ( talk) 20:25, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
And as for this edit, yes I understand Russia Today is different from RT, but all I've done is mainly just move information around! Royalenlightenment ( talk) 21:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
"David Weigel writes that RT goes further than merely creating distrust of the United States government, to saying, in effect: "You can trust the Russians more than you can trust those bastards." highly unencyclopedic quotation
"Since its foundation in 2005, RT has attracted wide criticism in the West..." weasel wording
"Russian-Israeli blogger Anton Nosik (ru) said the creation of Russia Today "smacks of Soviet-style propaganda campaigns..." Anton Who?? non-notable source
"A representative of Reporters Without Borders..." Weasel wording. Representative's name?? "Luke Harding in The Guardian described Russia Today's advertising campaign in the United Kingdom as an 'ambitious attempt to create a new post-Soviet global propaganda empire.'" hostile source; irrelevant personal opinion
"In Russia, former KGB officer Konstantin Preobrazhensky criticized RT as "a part of the Russian industry of misinformation and manipulation".[143] Andrey Illarionov, former advisor to Vladimir Putin, has labeled the channel as "the best Russian propaganda machine targeted at the outside world." highly hostile sources; anti-Putin political bias likely to cloud judgement; despite being state funded, RT is a news organization and not the Russian government itself.
More on the section titled "objectivity and criticism". Many news organizations have their biases and give weight to particular viewpoints on certain issues and this is NOT a crime, so long as fundamental ethics are not violated. No credible media organization will tolerate racial incitement, for example. Furthermore, none of the criticisms in the section can really be related to professional or ethical misconduct on the part of RT. If evidence of misconduct does exist, then it can be placed under a suggested "Controversy" heading just as in the Wikipedia entry for CNN. Under such a heading, specific, concrete examples of misrepresentation of facts, editorial interference, bribery etc if they exist and are well sourced, can be placed. As it currently stands, the criticisms directed against RT appear to be based on nothing other than the fact that it is Russian and/or lends more weight to viewpoints highly critical of western mainstream perspectives. -- Campingtrip ( talk) 07:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
This is only one of many examples where a double standard exists. Almost any topic that has any political ramification is manipulated in favor of the consensus of wikipedia authors (just take a look at the Enlgish-language wikipedia articles about the Russian President Putin and his American counterpart President Obama). This consensus at least for the english language part of wikipedia is pro USA and its allies. This is especially dangerous because the second most used language apart from the first acquired in the world is English and with this in mind this has the most potential in misleading international audiences. Far from being objective in any way wikipedia authors enforce and entrench biased thinking. Take the article on the "CNN" or "BBC". Read the introduction for all three networks and the relevant parts. There you have a paragraph titled "Controvesy". Compare this to "Criticism" on the "RT" article. Controvesy --> "a lot of disagreement or argument about something, usually because it affects or is important to many people", Criticism --> "the act of giving your opinion or judgment about the good or bad qualities of something or someone, especially books, films, etc.", http://dictionary.cambridge.org. Both of this approaches are unsuitable for an encyclopedia. If you have information i.e. facts and sources on a topic you can state them to verify or falsify, otherwise you are only particapating in propaganda yourself.
I'm the last one to be influenced by TV or by some presenter's personal war with Wikipedia. However, thre is an will be an influx of people trying to find her after what she (very bravely) said. Just leaving it here. 95.49.169.254 ( talk) 12:32, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
What's all this about a page about her being censored? She was on about it this morning. Keith-264 ( talk) 08:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Please don't add the word propaganda again, the source doesn't even mention it in this context.-- Communist-USSR ( talk) 17:31, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1403/05/pmt.01.html Nick Kristof (of NY Times), Liz Wahl, and Abby Martin on Piers Morgan. - Sidelight 12 Talk 16:31, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/5/5475538/rt-anchor-liz-wahl-quits-on-air — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.245.205.130 ( talk) 06:43, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Headline-1: Watch Russia Today Anchor Boldly Quit Her Job on the Air: ‘I Am Proud to Be an American’
QUOTING: Wahl said she is the grandchild of Hungarian refugees who fled brutal Soviet oppression.
“I am very lucky to have grown up here in the United States,” she said. “I am the daughter of a veteran, my partner is a physician at a military base, where he sees everyday the firsthand accounts of the ultimate prices that people pay for this country.”
“That is why personally I cannot be part of a network that is funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin. I am proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth. And that is why after this newscast I am resigning,” Wahl concluded.
Headline-2: Russia Today Anchor Quits On Air.
"In order to succeed there you don’t question," she said.
Headline-3: Russia Today Anchor Quits Over Ukraine Coverage; Former Host Says Network’s Credibility Is “Destroyed!"
This Slate writer provides some interesting insights.
Headline-4: VIDEO: Watch TV news presenter quit live on air over channel's presentation of Ukraine crisis.
QUOTING FROM THE ARTICLE: "As she closed her bulletin on Wednesday the journalist told of being from a family who fled to America to escape Soviet forces during the 1956 Hungarian revolution. She added she was the daughter of a military veteran and her partner was a physician who worked for the U.S. army “where he sees every day first hand accounts of the ultimate prices people pay for this country.”
She then said: "And that is why, personally, I cannot be part of a network funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin.
"I'm proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth. And that is why, after this newscast, I'm resigning.”
Charles Edwin Shipp ( talk) 16:29, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Headline-5: RT reacts to anchor Liz Wahl quitting on air
"...it is nothing more than a self-promotional stunt. We wish Liz the best of luck on her chosen path."
Charles Edwin Shipp (
talk)
16:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I read the cited article for the following two claims. It did not validate either of them. These claims may still be valid. Just that the citation used does not justify them. (The citation refers to a Nielsen ratings report that could validate (or invalidate) these claims.)
Mdnahas ( talk) 03:38, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
It is also very popular among younger American people, U.S. college students, and in U.S. inner city neighborhoods
got an ubbiased ref for that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.148.193.254 ( talk) 03:54, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
This reference is used many times, but has a broken link
In the second to the last paragraph in the criticism section, I think the quotation marks were misplaced, but I can't verify it from the above broken link. "Andrey Illarionov, former advisor..." - Sidelight 12 Talk
Done - Although I imagine Mr Lavrov really loves RT, I can't find a source for it? -- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 22:41, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Advisement to reinsert Kristof's comments on Morgan Piers like
or add comments Kristof made comments about Wahl and Martin's actions. - Sidelight 12 Talk 08:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Here is some additional source material that I'm not sure about incorporating into the article, I might come back to it later, if someone else wants to, feel free -- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 20:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
A few more on the theme of propaganda -- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 19:46, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
I worked a lot on this a few years ago and haven't looked at lately. Just made a few changes which weren't exactly NPOV oriented. But can see that the addition of a criticism section in addition to responses which includes a lot of criticism, is already problematic, without reading it. Probably a lot of WP:Undue in there. Will have to review the rest. I hope old rejected stuff was not dredged up; we'll see...
It looks like partisans on either side have not been doing too good a job keeping it NPOV per policy. There is no doubt West's government regulated/controlled (and sometimes owned) media outlets also engage in rather obvious propaganda. Wikipedia editors are supposed to be smart enough to use sources to transcend either type of propaganda, not push it or fall for it. So let's be smart. :-) Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 20:31, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Frankly, I am sick of this. There was a statement in the lede that the channel has been accused in propaganda. In the article, there is a section about this, which is well sourced. I did not add the statement, but after someone removed it I reformulated the statement. It has been repeatedly removed by one user in good standing, at least two IPs, and now by a user who edits infrequently. The removals have been reverted, not only by me, but also by other users in good standing. Not I was accused in blatant POV (note that the last IP tried to change the sentence adding that this is an anglo-american POV). None of the users ever made an effort to open a discussion at the talk page. Since I do not really like edit-warring, I have to open it. Please give your opinions on whether the sentence ("The network, particularly due to its coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis, has been repeatedly referred to as a propaganda tool.") belongs to the lede. I welcome users in good standing to comment, not socks. Thank you.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 19:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
The way it works is that the lede summarizes the article. If an article talks about some important aspect of its subject, and that info is sourced in the main body of the article, then it is not necessary to source the summary sentence(s) in the lede. But just for good measure, I added a few sources to the lede sentence(s) as well. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:31, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
The argument for removing the propaganda claim has been, "I don't like it." Propaganda is what they do, it is well documented, and it is the truth. Their own reporters and an increasing amount of reliable sources even said that. The lead is a summary which is well referenced within the article. I judged RT without bias at the beginning, until I looked into it. So, its ok for RT to take elements of the truth to distort it? So, RT can take quotes or pictures out of context to completely change the meaning? Wikipedia isn't allowed to do that. It's either hypocrisy or clinging to beliefs for people to expect a double standard in Wikipedia, which Wikipedia is following, and expect no standards in another place. Besides, it says it has been referred to as, which says this is the voice of reliable sources, not Wikipedia's voice. So do you want us to lie, to achieve what you call NPOV? - Sidelight 12 Talk 06:39, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
The inclusion of references claiming that RT is propaganda tool in the lead is wrong in my view. Why because it gives undue weight to the particular opinions of Western media and scholars that have themselves not been scrutinized for their political positions/allegiances. Secondly its inclusion in the lead is a recentism. Sietecolores ( talk) 05:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Here are my suggestions to resolve the matter:
This article may lend
undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, or controversies. |
Some critics have repeatedly referred to the network as a propaganda outlet and has been described as an "extension of... Putin's ... confrontational foreign policy".[9] That criticism of the network's nature as a propaganda tool increased during the coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis.[10][11]
Some critics has been repeatedly referred to the network as a propaganda outlet and has been described as an "extension of... Putin's ... confrontational foreign policy".[9] The criticism of the network's nature as a propaganda tool increased during the coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis.[10][11] RT responded to the accusations of Propaganda, stating "The charges of propaganda tend to pop up every time a news outlet, particularly RT, dares to show the side of events that does not fit the mainstream narrative, regardless of the realities on the ground. This happened in Georgia, this is happening in Ukraine".[ 1 ] At the same time, the network relishes in its reputation as propaganda "we put the fact that this is propaganda right out front. We're putting out the truth that no one else wants to say. "Truth is the best propaganda"."[ 2 ] LarryTheShark ( talk) 09:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Agree with the proposal of LarryTheShark. Wikipedians should assume good faith, a low number of edits can't by no means de-legitimize an user, it absurd. Lets keep to discuss LarryTheShark's proposal. Sietecolores ( talk) 16:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Sources which directly mention the propaganda aspect:
Sources behind a paywall, but pretty much call it propaganda:
Sources which don't call it "propaganda" directly but which compare it as such to Soviet era propaganda
That's almost EVERY single source in the criticism section. And that's 17, not 9. I have no idea where this "38" number was pulled out of, as a number of total sources in the section, but it's clearly "widely reported".
Note also that these represent a very wide spectrum of sources. I mean, the SPLC is in there.
Here's some more sources, just doing a quick ten second search, which say it's a propaganda tool but which are not currently in the article:
and more is easy to find.
In fact, given how widely this fact is covered in reliable sources, this issue should be non-controversial, and this whole discussion is really a big waste of time due to a couple of user's WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I’d just like to remind people that this is a discussion on the content of the lead. What description of the criticism that appears frequently in the article is appropriate for the lead?-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 12:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the Lead, and argument here, its all a question of wording, and which to chose. I think this covers the full spectrum of possibilities:
I disagree. The current wording in the lede is just fine. If anything, what could be added is the fact that RT often propagates conspiracy theories. We could also add specific examples of misinformation carried by RT (like the supposed pictures of Ukrainian refugees fleeing into Russia, which turned out to be photos of the regular Polish-Ukrainian border) or mention the leaked Russian government documents which give clear instructions to RT on how to carry out Putin's propaganda. But *that* would be probably a bit too much in the lede so putting it in the body should be fine.
Of course what RT says about itself can be, and probably should be, somewhere in the article as well. It's sort of like all those white power/neo-nazi guys we have articles on, where first we quote them calling themselves "racial realists" or whatever the euphemism they like to use, then have the article say "but many sources call them for what they are [1] [2] [3] [4], racists and neo-nazis". Similar thing here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:08, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
To be a bit more specific, Larry's suggestion would work if the description of RT as "propaganda" wasn't so widespread in reliable sources. Unfortunately for those trying to delete this information - in violation of WP:NPOV, erroneously invoking WP:UNDUE when it does not apply - it is. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:12, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Agree that the lede should be a summary of the article. The article states that RT has been described as a propaganda tool and this is well cited with references. Therefore the lede properly summarises this in the lede. -- Nug ( talk) 18:21, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Four points.
Wikipedia is built on summarization, yet, under a rigorous interpretation of wp:nor / wp:synt, nearly all summarizaiotqn could be called wp:or/ wp:synth. So I guess summarizaiotn is wp:ssynth if it is challenged. :-) That situation is not as bad as it might sound, but should not get in the way of a consensused summarization. Next, discussions about the nature of the media are appropriate fort the talk page. The idea of using article-space standards to de-legitimize someone's talk page discussion is BS. Next, the maneuver of getting "x is y" inserted into an article by making the statement "some people say "x is y" is not enough basis. Finally, it sounds like in general the sources could support a summarization that the outlet is biased, but probably not that it is propaganda. So why not compromise on the former and move on? Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 00:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Let me be clear we are not trying to claim the RT’s nature as a propaganda tool is related to the events in Ukraine. Based on its content it was founded as a propaganda tool, it is a propaganda tool today and will likely be a propaganda tool in the future. All we are saying is that the level of criticism has increased lately, which is obviously correct. Recentism is a about confusing sources talking about specific recent events and those describing timeless features of the subject. As far as I understand it, it would apply here if we tried to make it look like RT has always been criticised using sources that only talk about its coverage of Crimea. This is not the case here.
I also strongly disagree with the idea that in order to summarise in the lead we have to limit ourselves to using quotes from sources. That’s not summarising, it’s cherry picking and is likely to cause claims of undue prominence. But if that’s consensus that arises, I’m sure I can find something sufficiently unambiguous.-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 17:51, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek, compare the following statements:
If you think I have misrepresented the source, then please find another one. If you think The Telegraph fails rs or is a propaganda tool of the Kremlin, then please provide another source. But to me, polling sources to determine what they say is original research. I could look for sources that said Obama was a good/bad president and say "lots of sources say he is a good/bad president." Instead if I wanted to explain how he was generally perceived I would go to a source that says how he is generally perceived. TFD ( talk) 18:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Comment - Suggested alternative (I'm just here for the RfC). "The network presents a pro-Russian viewpoint; Western media frequently accuse it of being under the direct control of the Russian government". -- 94.193.139.22 ( talk) 13:27, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Going through the whole "Propaganda tool" section discussion, this is the state of consensus as of April 10 2014:
Keep the Propaganda paragraph as is. 8 editors - Ymblanter, Trappedinburnley, Galassi, Capitalismojo, Sidelight12, Volunteer Marek, Sayerslle, Nug.
Change the Propaganda paragraph. 12 editors - Zvonko, LokiiT, Carolmooredc, LarryTheShark, TFD, NinjaRobotPirate, Sietecolores, 79.179.155.133, North8000, 109.66.173.51, 94.193.139.22, Damotclese. (I am IP 109.66)
109.64.155.17 (
talk)
18:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
This is not consensus. And how many of the above do you think are sock puppets? Additionally since WP:NPOV (including WP:RS) is one of the five pillars, that trumps any talk page consensus, as it represents project wide consensus. You simply cannot remove text that is extensively cited to reliable sources. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 10:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Having having returned from some days away, it is disappointing to see what has happened here. Larry the Shark indef banned, the appearance of single purpose IP accounts, socks, and edit warring. What is clear is that the long term lede was changed without clear consensus. By that I mean even if banned editors and single purpose ip accounts are given full weight, 8 to 12 does not indicate robust consensus. One does not determine consensus by totaling up votes. Capitalismojo ( talk) 18:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
This
edit request to
RT (TV network) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hello. In the Presenters section, it says that I am currently a Presenter at the Channel. This is not true. I no longer work there. Could you please delete me from the list of Presenters names. This is the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)
Kind regards,
Cary Johnston.
80.7.133.6 ( talk) 08:13, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
replace: 'According to RT's mission statement "RT provides an alternative perspective on major global events, and acquaints international audience with the Russian viewpoint".[2] Western media perception of the network ranges from having a clear pro-Russian perspective, to having a strong pro-Russian bias, to being a propaganda outlet for the Russian government.'
with: 'RT is depicted as on having a Russian perspective on global events. Critics have accused it of being a propaganda outlet for the Russian government.'
reasons: Russian bias stated 3 or 4 times, and wp:MISSION essay (about mission statements) is general practice. Summarized mission statement as compromise. "Western media perception" is wp:OR. - Sidelight 12 Talk 10:20, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Partial agree - Reasons are sound, but I would suggest 'The network asserts that RT offers a Russian perspective on global events. Critics have accused it of being a propaganda outlet for the Russian government.' Also I feel we need to add two or three cites to the 2nd sentence or we're just going to go round in circles.-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 10:48, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Request to add to end of criticism section:
'
United States Secretary of State
John Kerry refered to Russia Today as a state-sponsored "propaganda bullhorn" and he continued by saying, "Russia Today
network has deployed to promote president Putin's fantasy about what is playing out on the ground. They almost spend full time devoted to this effort, to
propagandize, and to distort what is happening or not happening in Ukraine."
"Secretary Kerry on Ukraine" (Press release). CSPAN. {{
cite press release}}
: Text "April 24, 2014" ignored (
help) Russia Today responded that they wanted "an
official response from the U.S. Department of State substantiating Mr. Kerry's claims."Logiurato, Brett (April 26, 2014),
RT Is Very Upset With John Kerry For Blasting Them As Putin's 'Propaganda Bullhorn', Business Insider {{
citation}}
: line feed character in |title=
at position 38 (
help)
Richard Stengel from the U.S.
Department of State responded.Logiurato (April 29, 2014),
Russia's Propaganda Channel Just Got A Journalism Lesson From The US State Department, Business Insider Stengel stated in his response, "RT is a distortion machine, not a news organization," but he supports RT's right to broadcast in the
United States.Stengel, Richard (April 29, 2014), [
http://blogs.state.gov/stories/2014/04/29/russia-today-s-
disinformation-campaign Russia Today’s Disinformation Campaign], U.S. Department of State {{
citation}}
: Check |url=
value (
help); line feed character in |url=
at position 58 (
help)
Video comment starts at 6:58. Thank you. - Sidelight 12 Talk 13:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I’m not sure what just happened here!?! Of all the things that I’m unhappy with about this article, that it is edit protected again, tops the list. Looking back at the last edit war I don’t see why this had to go so far? Can anyone tell me:
As far as I can see the only bits I removed are redundant, and as Marek said the quote shouldn’t need to be there at all, but moving to the full quote didn't need to be the start of an edit-war. I only included it to add a third viewpoint (from a source that can’t possibly be called Western POV/irrelevant) and make the propaganda bit a little less obvious. And @LTS\Bezeq IP\whateveryournameis where do you think that idea came from?-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 21:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
So people can understand what " just happened" : /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Abuse_of_admin_privileges
Pointing out hypocrisy. IP reports admin, [6], then asks two other admins to do, what he reported an admin for, which is locking the article with his POV. User talk:Ged UK#RT (TV network) article lock and User_talk:Atama#The ANI admin dispute on RT (TV network). More [7]. - Sidelight 12 Talk 16:11, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I've stated somewhere before that this article tries too hard to portray the station as a 'propaganda' tool for none other than the fact that it is Russian. 'Hey, we are talking about a Russian station here, we have to mention propaganda, no matter how weak the justification is!' No wonder the article is littered with highly selective quotations from non-notable and hostile sources. What good thing is any mainstream western media commentator likely say about Russia or its media? Yes, the sources may be reliable but are these sources likely to be fair and objective? Even if they fail the fairness test, are they notable enough? John Kerry is highly unlikely to say anything good about the Russian media, but he is a notable figure of authority and a quotation from him is fair and appropriate. But... David who? Luke who?? Andrey who? It is apparent that someone or some persons are trying to hide behind carefully selected quotes from hostile sources to push their own agenda. No wonder the debate has been lengthy and sometimes quite bitter. If it is such a propaganda tool that 'enlightened' viewers would do best to avoid, then why is it, according to the 2012 Nielsen Media Research Survey, the most watched foreign TV station in 5 key US urban markets?
In the above, I've used the term 'propaganda' as it appears to be widely understood (or misunderstood) in many of the previous posts i.e. deliberate misrepresentation or lying. Propaganda is NOT the same thing as lying. Propaganda involves selective emphasis and non-emphasis to channel opinion in a certain desired direction. To this extent, almost all international media organisations are propaganda tools and the debate as to whether station A or B engages in propaganda is a meaningless debate and a huge waste of time. As I've stated before, it would be far more important to have a 'controversy' section and cite specific instances where the station was found to have breached journalistic ethics; or other instances of obvious interest such as when Liz Wahl resigned on air. -- Campingtrip ( talk) 09:35, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Nearly all of the other major news outlets have their separate wikipedia pages documenting their controversies and criticisms and given how much criticisms RT has received (esp. in light of the situation in Ukraine), I definitely think we need to consider RT having it's separate page for its criticisms and controversies. Limestoneforest ( talk) 09:16, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
It’s pretty obvious that the current ‘reception’ section needs a reorganisation. As pointed out previously many comparable articles have a ‘Controversy’ section. I think we have enough in the existing sources to have three subsections on the topics of ‘Editorial Independence’, ‘Objectivity and bias’, and ‘Misrepresentation of facts’.
Also the ‘Criticism’ section is less than ideal, on top of being too general it is also quite disorganised. I’ve already tried to organise the ‘Responses to news coverage’ into chronological order. But I now think that grouping by news event would be ideal (i.e. Georgia, Libya, Syria, Ukraine). I think that the criticism should be moved wherever possible to one of the other sections. It might need a new section or two to completely empty it. I’m thinking maybe ‘Foundation’ or ‘Concept’, but we can see how we go. In the interest of avoiding another massive argument I thought it best to discuss it before ploughing on. Does anyone have a better idea?-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 22:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
RT is primarily an English language organization, aimed at a western audience. We are the English Wikipedia therefore it is inevitable that most of the available RS will be from Western sources. The idea that the Western Media is a humongous unit of Russophobes who will attack RT to protect their territory is laughable. If they want to stop RT taking their customers the last thing they would do is publicize its existence. The biggest issue this article has with sources is the amount that point to RT. @Carolmooredc could you explain the following? -- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 18:57, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
"In March 2014 a group of Ukraininan journalists[citation needed] started a website StopFake.org dedicated to debunking propaganda and false news published by Russian media, including RT, for example using footage from past military conflicts (like Georgia, South Ossetia, Syria) and presenting them as current footage from Ukraine.[191]"
The reference goes to stopfake.org itself, which is not a reliable source to say that they are "debunking propaganda". This source says that stopfake.org is "created with an assistance from the U.S. Department of State through the Educational Partnership Program." 87.78.24.148 ( talk) 22:18, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Here's another independent source [15]. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I added some new information as of today's USA listings at http://rt.com/where-to-watch/ to the infobox. However, despite my best efforts, it doesn't seem to be formatting correctly. Any help would be appreciated. -- Holdek ( talk) 18:12, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Youtube refs are almost never accepted. Even if they were appropriate, they would not be in this case. We have them being used as a primary source for WP:Original Research. This is not proper for addition to this or any article. Capitalismojo ( talk) 18:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
An editor has edit warred saying that the administrative protection ("lockup") of the page on May 6 indicates that this version was thus blessed as the "consensus". One need only look at the WP:the wrong version to understand that the administrative protection means nothing of the sort. A page is protected from edit warring by the administrative protection. The administrator is not making a ruling as to which version is "correct", the admin is trying to stop an edit war. No more no less. The effort to reach consensus can not be short circuited by referring to this administrative action. Capitalismojo ( talk) 19:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Addition to presenters: Manila Chan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.217.70 ( talk) 00:36, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
After the July 2014 crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, RT rushed to blame others for the plane's shoot-down in Ukraine amid accusations by Ukrainian fighters of Russian involvement in the crash.[188]
I just bumped into a wikipedia article which should be mentioned here as well . It is another "sister" channel of RT called 'Ruptly' /info/en/?search=Ruptly 79.180.198.174 ( talk) 19:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions for the period 2012-2014. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I improved the section titles to conform to WP neutrality requirements ... so I think the article is good in that regard. I did not change any content. The big remaining problem with this article is that it reads like a long list of criticisms by Western sources. Although those are valid and belong in the article, RT is a global network, so reviews/assessments from around the world are needed to round out the article and make it encyclopedic. Maybe inquiries could be made at other WPs for input ... e.g. to get translations of their RT articles & sources. -- Noleander ( talk) 15:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I used some of your section titles and put "expansion" note where new info is needed in my revert to the October 12 version and good changes to that version. I actually HAVE some of that info spread out over several "add" files which have to put together, plus do some more research since accidentally deleted a whole file of new add material. If at first you don't succeed... CarolMooreDC 18:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I put back the big list with a "discuss note" so here's the discussion:
Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 18:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
What about a "Staff" section listing a few top-tier managers/executives? At least name them. I think there was a section with 3 listed in the prior version. -- Noleander ( talk) 18:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Another editor deleted some of RT's statements about itself as self-serving (two or possibly all three "citation needed" sentences) - as opposed to, say its claims about viewership. Because of the intervening contretempts I never got around to discussing this, or the fact I doubt they'd lie about these things. Any thoughts?
Also I know there is at least one, probably more, RT Opinions and/or article about the Alexei Navalny issue that is relevant to putting in a paragraph on him and the protests and Simonyan's tweets. As long as it is clear it's RT's news or opinion story, and it is more a response to allegations than an assertion of what is true, I don't see a problem with using that material. Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 18:50, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I have done some reading in the RT Wikipedia article in Russian regarding funding and ownership, and did some more digging. I think the intro/lead in English is still a mess and inaccurate Here is the information i managed to gather : So we have the article quoting RIA Novosti -
"RIA-Novosti said in a statement issued last month that it is "neither a sponsor nor a backer of Russia Today" and merely participated in establishing the channel as an Autonomous Non-Profit Organization, which provided for its complete legal, editorial and operational independence." http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/03/23/230310_rt.html
RIA Novosti even published an article on the inaccuracy of the Wikipedia English article here itself (good read) : http://en.rian.ru/agency_news/20120206/171179459.html
I believe that RT in Russia is officially/legally an "Autonomous Non-Profit Organisation (ANO) “TV-Novosti”" as also stated in their disclaimer http://rt.com/about/disclaimer/
A quote from a senior government official from 2005 :
"Russia Today will come as an independent company, said Mikhail Seslavinsky, in charge of the Federal Agency for the Press and Mass Communications.
The federal government intends to call the State Duma, parliament's lower house, to amend the year's federal budget for Russia Today financing. The channel will be funded through the Federal Agency for the Press and Mass Communications, by grants and from advertising revenues." http://www.rianovosti.com/society/20050607/40486831.html
the above statement is connected to this: /info/en/?search=Federal_budget_of_Russia
And the 3 references in RT Russian Wikipedia article Do show that they are (RT and RIA Novosti) 2 separate entities having 2 separate budgets : http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=lenta.ru%2Fnews%2F2010%2F08%2F06%2Fsmi%2F&safe=off
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=www.infox.ru%2Fbusiness%2Fmedia%2F2009%2F01%2F21%2FRussia_Today_ekonomi.phtml&safe=off 79.181.8.18 ( talk) 03:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Doing some detective work with Google translator in Russian , I found Margarita Simonyan's boss. Basically RT channel is owned by (ANO) TV-Novosti. "ANO" is a legal definition in Russia "Autonomous non-profit organization" /info/en/?search=Nonprofit_organization#Russia
The General director (highest executive position in a company, analogous to a U.S CEO) of ANO TV-Novosti is Mr. Sergey Frolov. from the Federal Agency on Press and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation own website : http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.fapmc.ru/rospechat/newsandevents/media/2007/08/item3356.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%25D0%25A1%25D0%25B5%25D1%2580%25D0%25B3%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B9%2B%25D0%25A4%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BB%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%2522%2B%2522%25D0%25A0%25D0%2598%25D0%2590-%25D0%259D%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2522%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26tbo%3Dd%26sout%3D1%26biw%3D1061%26bih%3D541&sa=X&ei=7nKdUJ3kL8SF4AS53YGIBA&ved=0CGsQ7gEwCA&
I even found the Deputy Director-General , Mrs. Elena Sokolova
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://sokolova-dev-tsukanova.moikrug.ru/%3Fnocookiesupport%3Dyes&usg=ALkJrhiH4MSGNLh9PqEU95fERT6dKyM3oA
79.183.1.105 (
talk)
18:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, I suppose, if that's what it was, Carolmooredc. A list of notable guests invited on a network, even if reliably sourced, is in no way encyclopedic. Do you care to add such a list to the BBC article? or even Newsnight? Or Late Show with David Letterman? Come on. It reads like resume padding. Drmies ( talk) 05:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Re: This diff: First, this is a minor incident only notable because it got an Ambassador on the air; and not really much of a controversy or criticism. My one sentence "In early 2012 Michael McFaul, the newly appointed US ambassador to Russia, rejected Margaret Simonyan’s tweeted charge that the United States government had paid for opposition leader Alexei Navalny’s 2010 Yale World Fellows Program semester." is more than enough info for this article and the rest is WP:Undue silliness, in my opinion.
Plus, I find it rather odd that an AnonIP from Bezquez Intnl has added all that negative and even silly detail to the McFaul incident, when AnonIPs from Bezquez usually would add positive info. It was another (twice blocked) editor who always wanted to added the full quotes of the tweet exchange, so I have to wonder who is behind that edit. Does it rise to the level of asking for a sock puppet check? Or did that previous editor just forget to sign in? CarolMooreDC 16:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
References
The entire section looks like cheerleading for RT, especially the lede paragraph. I've have placed in a POV tag for now on the section and reported the user who has been making these changes to the ANI, although all other third-party observers are welcomed to comment on the ANI. Festermunk ( talk) 17:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
As per WP:BRD and consensus on either the relevant sub-sections on the RT talk page or through the RT section on the DNR, I am going to restore and modify all of the aforementioned text that was achieved through consensus, but overridden through the unilateral edits by the user CarolMooreDC. Specifically, I'm going to make the following changes:
An extra note, as most of these requested changes already have consensus, if I don't receive a response to the points I'm raising then as per Wikipedia:Silence and consensus, I'm going to tentatively reinstate the changes. Festermunk ( talk) 01:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Noleander has a good idea. As for specific responses:
2) If you want to be logical, please reply to what editors actually wrote. AGAIN: Re first sentence of Reception lead, Positive comments do NOT just come as a reaction to negative ones. That is the simple logic. Or we could just make a separate section on positive comments then? Obviously sentence about their being criticism is relevant; where to put two replies is up for discussion. As for the rest, the DNR is old history now, and it was just you and me - and a volunteer dispute resolver who has now decided to become an editor of this page. There are other editors here though I can certainly understand why with your aggressive and hostile attitude they might want to avoid interacting with you. That is the way you disrupt collaboration on a page. CarolMooreDC 17:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
So that's my view, as I've stated repeatedly. CarolMooreDC 18:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section? Festermunk ( talk) 19:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
A couple of us had had enough as of yesterday and independently took Festermunk to ANI and 3rrn. So he's indefinitely blocked for edit warring and I DIDN'T HEAR IT... He had a few points that were worth discussing and I tried to discuss them above but he preferred to ignore my attempts to collaborate. So just to be collaborative, below are the things people should comment on if they are problematic or need tweaking:
From the Reception>Objectivity section : "After the 2005 announcement the station would be launched, the U.S. government-sponsored VOA[86]". really? just sponsored? sponsored is a nice whitewash for the word funded. but it is not just funded . it is owned by the US government :
"The IBB supports the day-to-day operations of Voice of America" "The position of IBB Director is appointed by the president of the United States, with Senate confirmation" International Broadcasting Bureau
The IBB is part of the Broadcasting Board of Governors, guess who is a member of the board of governors ? Hillary Rodham Clinton the 67th United States Secretary of State. http://www.bbg.gov/about-the-agency/ Should be - "the U.S. government-owned/controlled VOA" 109.67.33.28 ( talk) 19:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
VOA is frankly sponsored, funded and subject to the control of the US and reflects US POV consistent with State Department outreach, there is nothing sinister or deceptive about that. However, it strives for legitimate journalism which is factually objective while consistent with foreign policy of the US. That does NOT make it the equivalent of propaganda organs which are funded by totalitarian or authoritarian governments. In fact, it is arguably more even handed, NPOV or RS to some degree, than for instance Fox News or the Washington Times or any Rupert Murdoch typer operation. There is nothing absurd, foolish or naive about CarolMooreDC's choice of words and I hope that your pit bull approach with this thread does not deter her from taking an interest in how, exactly, you intend to qualify the characterization of VOA. Wikidgood ( talk) 00:33, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I added subsections to the History section and spread it out slightly, as it was very cramped and very long. I am not 100% sure about the subsection titles, any suggestions of better names would be welcome. Hentheden ( talk) 22:11, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
How did Russia Today manage to get shown on almost all UK Travelodge TVs in the early part of the 21st century, even sometimes to the exclusion of nationally-local BBC News 24 which was also available on the "freeview" setup that the Travelodge TV setup was using? Was it part of a global Travelodge/RT deal? I think I've briefly seen an explanation for this in reliable sources somewhere, but it needs to be fleshed out properly and mentioned in the article. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 23:32, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Two quotes from RT Editor-in-Chief Margarita Simonyan, but im not sure where to add them : "Simonyan said it was good that countries like Russia are spending money to make their voices heard "after so many years in which the international media scene was reduced to the points of view of Anglo-Saxon countries. For five years, I have been watching BBC and CNN news every day — they have almost exactly the same topics, the same wording, the same order. And for so many years they were the only international TV news sources. … It’s great that there is a channel with a different view, different experts and a different order."
"In regards to Western media criticism of RT's "Coverage of conspiracy theories" Margarita Simonyan, the channel's editor-in-chief argued that the channel’s policy was merely to provide a platform for marginalized points of view that otherwise got little coverage, like the Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists. "I personally do not believe them. But I believe that if there are people out there who think so but do not get into mainstream media, they deserve an audience — and we should give them a forum,”. Simonyan noted that viewer resonance and audience numbers confirmed that the policy is right. She also added that giving airtime to “truthers” was morally comparable to Western media coverage of the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and two other cities that killed 293 people. "What about Western media reports saying that Vladimir Putin was behind the bombings?". http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/03/23/230310_rt.html 79.180.0.84 ( talk) 00:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
...this sentence from the lead: "RT, according to its corporate profile, "covers the major issues of our time for viewers wishing to question more."" What they do (or don't do) according to their corporate profile is not of any relevance to us or the reader, and the sentence contains only corporate fluff. Right now it's the first sentence of the second paragraph; as it happens, the second sentence works just as well, even better, to open that paragraph, describing that the network does. Not that I want to get involved with this article, of course. Drmies ( talk) 02:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Hey, Mr. Bezeq International, you can NOT revert other's material more than 3 times in 24 hours. Please read and study WP:3rr. Adding new material is ok if it doesn't delete other existing material. If you remember a few weeks back the article was protected so AnonIPs couldn't edit at all and that will happen again if 3rr violations continue. So please a) stop doing it and b) consider getting a registered user name so we don't get confused and have to keep checking if it's you or some other AnonIp. Thanks! CarolMooreDC 04:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
The following paragraph was in Reception>Objectivity section : ANO TV-Novosti (RT TV's parent Organization) General director (CEO) Mr. Sergey Frolov has stated "Our responsibility is not to be someone's lawyer or prosecutor. It is too stupid to hold information, because then you have to repeat it from others. We do our best to respond swiftly and impartially. Present the facts and not speculate or theorize. Actually, the problem is very simple: If we start to filter news or silent something - people will switch to CNN or BBC." http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.broadcasting.ru/newstext.php%3Fnews_id%3D25223/
Carolmooredc has reverted this On the grounds that "remove Novosti leader quote since not clear he's talking about RT and not other branches".
I think you made a mistake, and confusing RIA-Novosti headed by Svetlana Mironyuk with ANO TV-Novosti (Which ownes only RT Network) Headed by Sergey Frolov. The cited source Interview is all and only about RT TV. 109.65.25.151 ( talk) 15:53, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Anyone have information on the mass firing of most or all of the RT Reporters employed a month ago? This seems to correspond to a sudden shift in RT Focus. Press TV seems to have undergone a similar purge. This coup is very mysterious. I am trying to track down RT Reporters and ask them what happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.4.7 ( talk) 15:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I noticed that there is another name of the article Controversies_and_criticisms_of_RT. If someone finds its appropriate, then a separate article with the name should be created. Now it is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.0.101.218 ( talk) 13:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Can we include a para about how anti-EU RT is - and how anti non-white/immigration it appears to be too. I just noticed it was officially endorsed by British National Party leader Nick Griffin as 'the only real news channel!' i.e the only one that actually gives his party significant airtime.
What about including the fact that RT have a strong web presence especially on YouTube — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxr033 ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that it is correct that there is an anti-EU bias. RT is not biased, it is simply a Russian propaganda channel. The extent of distortion in recent months, in particular with reference to Ukraine, has been laughable. RT has no credibility as a news outlet. Interestingly there was a report, which I cannot now locate, which suggested that the degree of disinformation is worse with RT now than with Pravda at the height of the Cold War. I suggest that the article be edited to reflect that status. Royalcourtier ( talk) 03:11, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
"Viewers" is defined as "Someone who has tuned in a minimum of one time". I think it's misleading to lump regular views and one-time viewers as 'viewers' because it implies they all watch it when that might not be true. I can't find any neutral sources for the '2 million in the UK' statistic, other than from RT (which has a dead link), apparently RT claims it 'doesn't release figures' or something to that extent. Any ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxr033 ( talk • contribs) 15:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I removed the claim that "it is the most popular news channel in Britain after the BBC and Sky". What it actually says in the cited source (New Statesman) is "It is, it boasts, the most popular news channel in Britain after the BBC and Sky." i.e. this is referring back to a "boast" from RT itself.-- Shantavira| feed me 19:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Per this diff, putting that long ANO "TV-Novosti" (АНО "ТВ-Новости") in the info box title is totally WP:Undue; putting it in the description isn't really necessary; it belongs in the lead. This is English wikipedia. Why is User:TarzanASG insisting on putting Russian names in those two places?? CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 01:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Basically that's in there because WP:RS call it a propaganda source. If one objects, the best thing to do is find a couple WP:RS calling the BBC, NPR, and other govt sponsored/supported TV stations elsewhere propaganda, put them in those article and then add the category. That's what I'd do if had the time and energy :-) CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 18:55, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I just wanted to leave a note here after I saw the page history, in case anyone wants to discuss this. There was previously a list in the introduction of what looked like every important person ever to appear on the channel. I trimmed all but a few (the ones not citing YouTube) and used one of the other existing sources to note the "propaganda" claims. There should probably be a more balanced layout, but at least it looks better for now. Aiwen Zhang ( talk) 22:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps people would listen if you articulated your concerns here instead of being disruptive. Just an observation from someone not involved in your dispute. Cheers. Aiwen Zhang ( talk) 04:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Soni. I did some reading and Wikipedia's guidelines state that the introduction should be a summary of the article -- of which the trivia list is only one part. I also believe there is a policy about not citing primary sources, which supports my culling of the YouTube clips. Finally, if we are supposed to represent the contents of the article in the intro, the disproportionate criticism section merits a passing mention per my original edit. The current version without any guests or criticism is fine by me though. Aiwen Zhang ( talk) 08:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I just looked over the paragraph that was being argued over before I wandered into this mess and it's actually quite flimsy in light of Wikipedia's guidelines on subject weight.
US Jewish groups think everyone is anti-Israel and at best the wording is dishonest. Please discuss before re-adding the paragraph. Or keep ignoring the talk page and go back to accusing people of vandalism. Aiwen Zhang ( talk) 18:43, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
In light of this, I'm surprised that there isn't any section about how controversial the network. At least there needs to be a debate about this. Royalenlightenment ( talk) 17:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Also, why is there no mention of anything of the "reception section" in the intro section given how long the reception section is? And for the reception section, why can't you just make a section that is for RT and another one that perceives it negatively? That seems to be the point of a reception section... Royalenlightenment ( talk) 20:25, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
And as for this edit, yes I understand Russia Today is different from RT, but all I've done is mainly just move information around! Royalenlightenment ( talk) 21:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
"David Weigel writes that RT goes further than merely creating distrust of the United States government, to saying, in effect: "You can trust the Russians more than you can trust those bastards." highly unencyclopedic quotation
"Since its foundation in 2005, RT has attracted wide criticism in the West..." weasel wording
"Russian-Israeli blogger Anton Nosik (ru) said the creation of Russia Today "smacks of Soviet-style propaganda campaigns..." Anton Who?? non-notable source
"A representative of Reporters Without Borders..." Weasel wording. Representative's name?? "Luke Harding in The Guardian described Russia Today's advertising campaign in the United Kingdom as an 'ambitious attempt to create a new post-Soviet global propaganda empire.'" hostile source; irrelevant personal opinion
"In Russia, former KGB officer Konstantin Preobrazhensky criticized RT as "a part of the Russian industry of misinformation and manipulation".[143] Andrey Illarionov, former advisor to Vladimir Putin, has labeled the channel as "the best Russian propaganda machine targeted at the outside world." highly hostile sources; anti-Putin political bias likely to cloud judgement; despite being state funded, RT is a news organization and not the Russian government itself.
More on the section titled "objectivity and criticism". Many news organizations have their biases and give weight to particular viewpoints on certain issues and this is NOT a crime, so long as fundamental ethics are not violated. No credible media organization will tolerate racial incitement, for example. Furthermore, none of the criticisms in the section can really be related to professional or ethical misconduct on the part of RT. If evidence of misconduct does exist, then it can be placed under a suggested "Controversy" heading just as in the Wikipedia entry for CNN. Under such a heading, specific, concrete examples of misrepresentation of facts, editorial interference, bribery etc if they exist and are well sourced, can be placed. As it currently stands, the criticisms directed against RT appear to be based on nothing other than the fact that it is Russian and/or lends more weight to viewpoints highly critical of western mainstream perspectives. -- Campingtrip ( talk) 07:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
This is only one of many examples where a double standard exists. Almost any topic that has any political ramification is manipulated in favor of the consensus of wikipedia authors (just take a look at the Enlgish-language wikipedia articles about the Russian President Putin and his American counterpart President Obama). This consensus at least for the english language part of wikipedia is pro USA and its allies. This is especially dangerous because the second most used language apart from the first acquired in the world is English and with this in mind this has the most potential in misleading international audiences. Far from being objective in any way wikipedia authors enforce and entrench biased thinking. Take the article on the "CNN" or "BBC". Read the introduction for all three networks and the relevant parts. There you have a paragraph titled "Controvesy". Compare this to "Criticism" on the "RT" article. Controvesy --> "a lot of disagreement or argument about something, usually because it affects or is important to many people", Criticism --> "the act of giving your opinion or judgment about the good or bad qualities of something or someone, especially books, films, etc.", http://dictionary.cambridge.org. Both of this approaches are unsuitable for an encyclopedia. If you have information i.e. facts and sources on a topic you can state them to verify or falsify, otherwise you are only particapating in propaganda yourself.
I'm the last one to be influenced by TV or by some presenter's personal war with Wikipedia. However, thre is an will be an influx of people trying to find her after what she (very bravely) said. Just leaving it here. 95.49.169.254 ( talk) 12:32, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
What's all this about a page about her being censored? She was on about it this morning. Keith-264 ( talk) 08:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Please don't add the word propaganda again, the source doesn't even mention it in this context.-- Communist-USSR ( talk) 17:31, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1403/05/pmt.01.html Nick Kristof (of NY Times), Liz Wahl, and Abby Martin on Piers Morgan. - Sidelight 12 Talk 16:31, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/5/5475538/rt-anchor-liz-wahl-quits-on-air — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.245.205.130 ( talk) 06:43, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Headline-1: Watch Russia Today Anchor Boldly Quit Her Job on the Air: ‘I Am Proud to Be an American’
QUOTING: Wahl said she is the grandchild of Hungarian refugees who fled brutal Soviet oppression.
“I am very lucky to have grown up here in the United States,” she said. “I am the daughter of a veteran, my partner is a physician at a military base, where he sees everyday the firsthand accounts of the ultimate prices that people pay for this country.”
“That is why personally I cannot be part of a network that is funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin. I am proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth. And that is why after this newscast I am resigning,” Wahl concluded.
Headline-2: Russia Today Anchor Quits On Air.
"In order to succeed there you don’t question," she said.
Headline-3: Russia Today Anchor Quits Over Ukraine Coverage; Former Host Says Network’s Credibility Is “Destroyed!"
This Slate writer provides some interesting insights.
Headline-4: VIDEO: Watch TV news presenter quit live on air over channel's presentation of Ukraine crisis.
QUOTING FROM THE ARTICLE: "As she closed her bulletin on Wednesday the journalist told of being from a family who fled to America to escape Soviet forces during the 1956 Hungarian revolution. She added she was the daughter of a military veteran and her partner was a physician who worked for the U.S. army “where he sees every day first hand accounts of the ultimate prices people pay for this country.”
She then said: "And that is why, personally, I cannot be part of a network funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin.
"I'm proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth. And that is why, after this newscast, I'm resigning.”
Charles Edwin Shipp ( talk) 16:29, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Headline-5: RT reacts to anchor Liz Wahl quitting on air
"...it is nothing more than a self-promotional stunt. We wish Liz the best of luck on her chosen path."
Charles Edwin Shipp (
talk)
16:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I read the cited article for the following two claims. It did not validate either of them. These claims may still be valid. Just that the citation used does not justify them. (The citation refers to a Nielsen ratings report that could validate (or invalidate) these claims.)
Mdnahas ( talk) 03:38, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
It is also very popular among younger American people, U.S. college students, and in U.S. inner city neighborhoods
got an ubbiased ref for that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.148.193.254 ( talk) 03:54, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
This reference is used many times, but has a broken link
In the second to the last paragraph in the criticism section, I think the quotation marks were misplaced, but I can't verify it from the above broken link. "Andrey Illarionov, former advisor..." - Sidelight 12 Talk
Done - Although I imagine Mr Lavrov really loves RT, I can't find a source for it? -- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 22:41, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Advisement to reinsert Kristof's comments on Morgan Piers like
or add comments Kristof made comments about Wahl and Martin's actions. - Sidelight 12 Talk 08:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Here is some additional source material that I'm not sure about incorporating into the article, I might come back to it later, if someone else wants to, feel free -- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 20:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
A few more on the theme of propaganda -- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 19:46, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
I worked a lot on this a few years ago and haven't looked at lately. Just made a few changes which weren't exactly NPOV oriented. But can see that the addition of a criticism section in addition to responses which includes a lot of criticism, is already problematic, without reading it. Probably a lot of WP:Undue in there. Will have to review the rest. I hope old rejected stuff was not dredged up; we'll see...
It looks like partisans on either side have not been doing too good a job keeping it NPOV per policy. There is no doubt West's government regulated/controlled (and sometimes owned) media outlets also engage in rather obvious propaganda. Wikipedia editors are supposed to be smart enough to use sources to transcend either type of propaganda, not push it or fall for it. So let's be smart. :-) Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 20:31, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Frankly, I am sick of this. There was a statement in the lede that the channel has been accused in propaganda. In the article, there is a section about this, which is well sourced. I did not add the statement, but after someone removed it I reformulated the statement. It has been repeatedly removed by one user in good standing, at least two IPs, and now by a user who edits infrequently. The removals have been reverted, not only by me, but also by other users in good standing. Not I was accused in blatant POV (note that the last IP tried to change the sentence adding that this is an anglo-american POV). None of the users ever made an effort to open a discussion at the talk page. Since I do not really like edit-warring, I have to open it. Please give your opinions on whether the sentence ("The network, particularly due to its coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis, has been repeatedly referred to as a propaganda tool.") belongs to the lede. I welcome users in good standing to comment, not socks. Thank you.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 19:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
The way it works is that the lede summarizes the article. If an article talks about some important aspect of its subject, and that info is sourced in the main body of the article, then it is not necessary to source the summary sentence(s) in the lede. But just for good measure, I added a few sources to the lede sentence(s) as well. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:31, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
The argument for removing the propaganda claim has been, "I don't like it." Propaganda is what they do, it is well documented, and it is the truth. Their own reporters and an increasing amount of reliable sources even said that. The lead is a summary which is well referenced within the article. I judged RT without bias at the beginning, until I looked into it. So, its ok for RT to take elements of the truth to distort it? So, RT can take quotes or pictures out of context to completely change the meaning? Wikipedia isn't allowed to do that. It's either hypocrisy or clinging to beliefs for people to expect a double standard in Wikipedia, which Wikipedia is following, and expect no standards in another place. Besides, it says it has been referred to as, which says this is the voice of reliable sources, not Wikipedia's voice. So do you want us to lie, to achieve what you call NPOV? - Sidelight 12 Talk 06:39, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
The inclusion of references claiming that RT is propaganda tool in the lead is wrong in my view. Why because it gives undue weight to the particular opinions of Western media and scholars that have themselves not been scrutinized for their political positions/allegiances. Secondly its inclusion in the lead is a recentism. Sietecolores ( talk) 05:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Here are my suggestions to resolve the matter:
This article may lend
undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, or controversies. |
Some critics have repeatedly referred to the network as a propaganda outlet and has been described as an "extension of... Putin's ... confrontational foreign policy".[9] That criticism of the network's nature as a propaganda tool increased during the coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis.[10][11]
Some critics has been repeatedly referred to the network as a propaganda outlet and has been described as an "extension of... Putin's ... confrontational foreign policy".[9] The criticism of the network's nature as a propaganda tool increased during the coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis.[10][11] RT responded to the accusations of Propaganda, stating "The charges of propaganda tend to pop up every time a news outlet, particularly RT, dares to show the side of events that does not fit the mainstream narrative, regardless of the realities on the ground. This happened in Georgia, this is happening in Ukraine".[ 1 ] At the same time, the network relishes in its reputation as propaganda "we put the fact that this is propaganda right out front. We're putting out the truth that no one else wants to say. "Truth is the best propaganda"."[ 2 ] LarryTheShark ( talk) 09:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Agree with the proposal of LarryTheShark. Wikipedians should assume good faith, a low number of edits can't by no means de-legitimize an user, it absurd. Lets keep to discuss LarryTheShark's proposal. Sietecolores ( talk) 16:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Sources which directly mention the propaganda aspect:
Sources behind a paywall, but pretty much call it propaganda:
Sources which don't call it "propaganda" directly but which compare it as such to Soviet era propaganda
That's almost EVERY single source in the criticism section. And that's 17, not 9. I have no idea where this "38" number was pulled out of, as a number of total sources in the section, but it's clearly "widely reported".
Note also that these represent a very wide spectrum of sources. I mean, the SPLC is in there.
Here's some more sources, just doing a quick ten second search, which say it's a propaganda tool but which are not currently in the article:
and more is easy to find.
In fact, given how widely this fact is covered in reliable sources, this issue should be non-controversial, and this whole discussion is really a big waste of time due to a couple of user's WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I’d just like to remind people that this is a discussion on the content of the lead. What description of the criticism that appears frequently in the article is appropriate for the lead?-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 12:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the Lead, and argument here, its all a question of wording, and which to chose. I think this covers the full spectrum of possibilities:
I disagree. The current wording in the lede is just fine. If anything, what could be added is the fact that RT often propagates conspiracy theories. We could also add specific examples of misinformation carried by RT (like the supposed pictures of Ukrainian refugees fleeing into Russia, which turned out to be photos of the regular Polish-Ukrainian border) or mention the leaked Russian government documents which give clear instructions to RT on how to carry out Putin's propaganda. But *that* would be probably a bit too much in the lede so putting it in the body should be fine.
Of course what RT says about itself can be, and probably should be, somewhere in the article as well. It's sort of like all those white power/neo-nazi guys we have articles on, where first we quote them calling themselves "racial realists" or whatever the euphemism they like to use, then have the article say "but many sources call them for what they are [1] [2] [3] [4], racists and neo-nazis". Similar thing here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:08, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
To be a bit more specific, Larry's suggestion would work if the description of RT as "propaganda" wasn't so widespread in reliable sources. Unfortunately for those trying to delete this information - in violation of WP:NPOV, erroneously invoking WP:UNDUE when it does not apply - it is. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:12, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Agree that the lede should be a summary of the article. The article states that RT has been described as a propaganda tool and this is well cited with references. Therefore the lede properly summarises this in the lede. -- Nug ( talk) 18:21, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Four points.
Wikipedia is built on summarization, yet, under a rigorous interpretation of wp:nor / wp:synt, nearly all summarizaiotqn could be called wp:or/ wp:synth. So I guess summarizaiotn is wp:ssynth if it is challenged. :-) That situation is not as bad as it might sound, but should not get in the way of a consensused summarization. Next, discussions about the nature of the media are appropriate fort the talk page. The idea of using article-space standards to de-legitimize someone's talk page discussion is BS. Next, the maneuver of getting "x is y" inserted into an article by making the statement "some people say "x is y" is not enough basis. Finally, it sounds like in general the sources could support a summarization that the outlet is biased, but probably not that it is propaganda. So why not compromise on the former and move on? Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 00:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Let me be clear we are not trying to claim the RT’s nature as a propaganda tool is related to the events in Ukraine. Based on its content it was founded as a propaganda tool, it is a propaganda tool today and will likely be a propaganda tool in the future. All we are saying is that the level of criticism has increased lately, which is obviously correct. Recentism is a about confusing sources talking about specific recent events and those describing timeless features of the subject. As far as I understand it, it would apply here if we tried to make it look like RT has always been criticised using sources that only talk about its coverage of Crimea. This is not the case here.
I also strongly disagree with the idea that in order to summarise in the lead we have to limit ourselves to using quotes from sources. That’s not summarising, it’s cherry picking and is likely to cause claims of undue prominence. But if that’s consensus that arises, I’m sure I can find something sufficiently unambiguous.-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 17:51, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek, compare the following statements:
If you think I have misrepresented the source, then please find another one. If you think The Telegraph fails rs or is a propaganda tool of the Kremlin, then please provide another source. But to me, polling sources to determine what they say is original research. I could look for sources that said Obama was a good/bad president and say "lots of sources say he is a good/bad president." Instead if I wanted to explain how he was generally perceived I would go to a source that says how he is generally perceived. TFD ( talk) 18:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Comment - Suggested alternative (I'm just here for the RfC). "The network presents a pro-Russian viewpoint; Western media frequently accuse it of being under the direct control of the Russian government". -- 94.193.139.22 ( talk) 13:27, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Going through the whole "Propaganda tool" section discussion, this is the state of consensus as of April 10 2014:
Keep the Propaganda paragraph as is. 8 editors - Ymblanter, Trappedinburnley, Galassi, Capitalismojo, Sidelight12, Volunteer Marek, Sayerslle, Nug.
Change the Propaganda paragraph. 12 editors - Zvonko, LokiiT, Carolmooredc, LarryTheShark, TFD, NinjaRobotPirate, Sietecolores, 79.179.155.133, North8000, 109.66.173.51, 94.193.139.22, Damotclese. (I am IP 109.66)
109.64.155.17 (
talk)
18:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
This is not consensus. And how many of the above do you think are sock puppets? Additionally since WP:NPOV (including WP:RS) is one of the five pillars, that trumps any talk page consensus, as it represents project wide consensus. You simply cannot remove text that is extensively cited to reliable sources. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 10:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Having having returned from some days away, it is disappointing to see what has happened here. Larry the Shark indef banned, the appearance of single purpose IP accounts, socks, and edit warring. What is clear is that the long term lede was changed without clear consensus. By that I mean even if banned editors and single purpose ip accounts are given full weight, 8 to 12 does not indicate robust consensus. One does not determine consensus by totaling up votes. Capitalismojo ( talk) 18:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
This
edit request to
RT (TV network) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hello. In the Presenters section, it says that I am currently a Presenter at the Channel. This is not true. I no longer work there. Could you please delete me from the list of Presenters names. This is the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)
Kind regards,
Cary Johnston.
80.7.133.6 ( talk) 08:13, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
replace: 'According to RT's mission statement "RT provides an alternative perspective on major global events, and acquaints international audience with the Russian viewpoint".[2] Western media perception of the network ranges from having a clear pro-Russian perspective, to having a strong pro-Russian bias, to being a propaganda outlet for the Russian government.'
with: 'RT is depicted as on having a Russian perspective on global events. Critics have accused it of being a propaganda outlet for the Russian government.'
reasons: Russian bias stated 3 or 4 times, and wp:MISSION essay (about mission statements) is general practice. Summarized mission statement as compromise. "Western media perception" is wp:OR. - Sidelight 12 Talk 10:20, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Partial agree - Reasons are sound, but I would suggest 'The network asserts that RT offers a Russian perspective on global events. Critics have accused it of being a propaganda outlet for the Russian government.' Also I feel we need to add two or three cites to the 2nd sentence or we're just going to go round in circles.-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 10:48, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Request to add to end of criticism section:
'
United States Secretary of State
John Kerry refered to Russia Today as a state-sponsored "propaganda bullhorn" and he continued by saying, "Russia Today
network has deployed to promote president Putin's fantasy about what is playing out on the ground. They almost spend full time devoted to this effort, to
propagandize, and to distort what is happening or not happening in Ukraine."
"Secretary Kerry on Ukraine" (Press release). CSPAN. {{
cite press release}}
: Text "April 24, 2014" ignored (
help) Russia Today responded that they wanted "an
official response from the U.S. Department of State substantiating Mr. Kerry's claims."Logiurato, Brett (April 26, 2014),
RT Is Very Upset With John Kerry For Blasting Them As Putin's 'Propaganda Bullhorn', Business Insider {{
citation}}
: line feed character in |title=
at position 38 (
help)
Richard Stengel from the U.S.
Department of State responded.Logiurato (April 29, 2014),
Russia's Propaganda Channel Just Got A Journalism Lesson From The US State Department, Business Insider Stengel stated in his response, "RT is a distortion machine, not a news organization," but he supports RT's right to broadcast in the
United States.Stengel, Richard (April 29, 2014), [
http://blogs.state.gov/stories/2014/04/29/russia-today-s-
disinformation-campaign Russia Today’s Disinformation Campaign], U.S. Department of State {{
citation}}
: Check |url=
value (
help); line feed character in |url=
at position 58 (
help)
Video comment starts at 6:58. Thank you. - Sidelight 12 Talk 13:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I’m not sure what just happened here!?! Of all the things that I’m unhappy with about this article, that it is edit protected again, tops the list. Looking back at the last edit war I don’t see why this had to go so far? Can anyone tell me:
As far as I can see the only bits I removed are redundant, and as Marek said the quote shouldn’t need to be there at all, but moving to the full quote didn't need to be the start of an edit-war. I only included it to add a third viewpoint (from a source that can’t possibly be called Western POV/irrelevant) and make the propaganda bit a little less obvious. And @LTS\Bezeq IP\whateveryournameis where do you think that idea came from?-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 21:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
So people can understand what " just happened" : /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Abuse_of_admin_privileges
Pointing out hypocrisy. IP reports admin, [6], then asks two other admins to do, what he reported an admin for, which is locking the article with his POV. User talk:Ged UK#RT (TV network) article lock and User_talk:Atama#The ANI admin dispute on RT (TV network). More [7]. - Sidelight 12 Talk 16:11, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I've stated somewhere before that this article tries too hard to portray the station as a 'propaganda' tool for none other than the fact that it is Russian. 'Hey, we are talking about a Russian station here, we have to mention propaganda, no matter how weak the justification is!' No wonder the article is littered with highly selective quotations from non-notable and hostile sources. What good thing is any mainstream western media commentator likely say about Russia or its media? Yes, the sources may be reliable but are these sources likely to be fair and objective? Even if they fail the fairness test, are they notable enough? John Kerry is highly unlikely to say anything good about the Russian media, but he is a notable figure of authority and a quotation from him is fair and appropriate. But... David who? Luke who?? Andrey who? It is apparent that someone or some persons are trying to hide behind carefully selected quotes from hostile sources to push their own agenda. No wonder the debate has been lengthy and sometimes quite bitter. If it is such a propaganda tool that 'enlightened' viewers would do best to avoid, then why is it, according to the 2012 Nielsen Media Research Survey, the most watched foreign TV station in 5 key US urban markets?
In the above, I've used the term 'propaganda' as it appears to be widely understood (or misunderstood) in many of the previous posts i.e. deliberate misrepresentation or lying. Propaganda is NOT the same thing as lying. Propaganda involves selective emphasis and non-emphasis to channel opinion in a certain desired direction. To this extent, almost all international media organisations are propaganda tools and the debate as to whether station A or B engages in propaganda is a meaningless debate and a huge waste of time. As I've stated before, it would be far more important to have a 'controversy' section and cite specific instances where the station was found to have breached journalistic ethics; or other instances of obvious interest such as when Liz Wahl resigned on air. -- Campingtrip ( talk) 09:35, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Nearly all of the other major news outlets have their separate wikipedia pages documenting their controversies and criticisms and given how much criticisms RT has received (esp. in light of the situation in Ukraine), I definitely think we need to consider RT having it's separate page for its criticisms and controversies. Limestoneforest ( talk) 09:16, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
It’s pretty obvious that the current ‘reception’ section needs a reorganisation. As pointed out previously many comparable articles have a ‘Controversy’ section. I think we have enough in the existing sources to have three subsections on the topics of ‘Editorial Independence’, ‘Objectivity and bias’, and ‘Misrepresentation of facts’.
Also the ‘Criticism’ section is less than ideal, on top of being too general it is also quite disorganised. I’ve already tried to organise the ‘Responses to news coverage’ into chronological order. But I now think that grouping by news event would be ideal (i.e. Georgia, Libya, Syria, Ukraine). I think that the criticism should be moved wherever possible to one of the other sections. It might need a new section or two to completely empty it. I’m thinking maybe ‘Foundation’ or ‘Concept’, but we can see how we go. In the interest of avoiding another massive argument I thought it best to discuss it before ploughing on. Does anyone have a better idea?-- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 22:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
RT is primarily an English language organization, aimed at a western audience. We are the English Wikipedia therefore it is inevitable that most of the available RS will be from Western sources. The idea that the Western Media is a humongous unit of Russophobes who will attack RT to protect their territory is laughable. If they want to stop RT taking their customers the last thing they would do is publicize its existence. The biggest issue this article has with sources is the amount that point to RT. @Carolmooredc could you explain the following? -- Trappedinburnley ( talk) 18:57, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
"In March 2014 a group of Ukraininan journalists[citation needed] started a website StopFake.org dedicated to debunking propaganda and false news published by Russian media, including RT, for example using footage from past military conflicts (like Georgia, South Ossetia, Syria) and presenting them as current footage from Ukraine.[191]"
The reference goes to stopfake.org itself, which is not a reliable source to say that they are "debunking propaganda". This source says that stopfake.org is "created with an assistance from the U.S. Department of State through the Educational Partnership Program." 87.78.24.148 ( talk) 22:18, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Here's another independent source [15]. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I added some new information as of today's USA listings at http://rt.com/where-to-watch/ to the infobox. However, despite my best efforts, it doesn't seem to be formatting correctly. Any help would be appreciated. -- Holdek ( talk) 18:12, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Youtube refs are almost never accepted. Even if they were appropriate, they would not be in this case. We have them being used as a primary source for WP:Original Research. This is not proper for addition to this or any article. Capitalismojo ( talk) 18:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
An editor has edit warred saying that the administrative protection ("lockup") of the page on May 6 indicates that this version was thus blessed as the "consensus". One need only look at the WP:the wrong version to understand that the administrative protection means nothing of the sort. A page is protected from edit warring by the administrative protection. The administrator is not making a ruling as to which version is "correct", the admin is trying to stop an edit war. No more no less. The effort to reach consensus can not be short circuited by referring to this administrative action. Capitalismojo ( talk) 19:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Addition to presenters: Manila Chan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.217.70 ( talk) 00:36, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
After the July 2014 crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, RT rushed to blame others for the plane's shoot-down in Ukraine amid accusations by Ukrainian fighters of Russian involvement in the crash.[188]
I just bumped into a wikipedia article which should be mentioned here as well . It is another "sister" channel of RT called 'Ruptly' /info/en/?search=Ruptly 79.180.198.174 ( talk) 19:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)