This article was nominated for deletion on 23 July 2005. The result of the discussion was keep (no consensus). |
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Ulysses press, published 2006, isbn10 1560755833, ISBN13 9781569755839, authors Ben Schoen and Emmerson Spatz. This has a whole chapter on RAB. Just about everything in our article is in there. A few quotes: taking into consideration the matching initials, the forshadowing in an earlier book, and the connection with Voldemort, who is the likeliest candidate? Regulus Black.
So whom did Regulus take {to help steal the locket]? Who better than a creature who was magically bound to obey his every command? Kreacher, the Black family house elf.
If Regulus, with the help of Kreacher, took the locket Horcrux, where is it now? It is almost certain that the locket was taken to Grimmauld Place.
Incidentally, I just discovered that Mugglenet's book [1] [2] about DH has printed 300,000 copies and is currently the number two best selling childrens paperback, after Eldest. Are you really claiming that no one is interested in what will happen in the next book? Even books discussing it are now becoming best sellers. This is highly noteable. Sandpiper 15:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I do hate it when the rules defy common sense. Rather suggests they need amending, doesn't it? Still, at least it says it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. I see it also says Notability guidelines determine whether a topic is sufficiently notable to be included as a separate article in Wikipedia. These guidelines do not specifically regulate the content of articles,... . So in fact this guideline might arguably say we should not have an article titled 'The Horcrux locket at Grimmauld place', but is completely irrelevant to what we mention in this article. Though given the widespread nature of that theory and the fact that the noteability criteria says A topic is notable if it has received significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, then perhaps we should start an independant article for this noteable theory. I see the section on popularity does however suggest that Secondary source availability and depth of coverage, not popularity or fame, establishes notability, so on all counts it is noteable. Sandpiper 00:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Folken, the difficulty is your persistent claim that material is unsourced, and that this justifies your behaviour. Whatever view you have does not allow you to edit disruptively, to ignore rules, or claim others are editing badly just because they do not agree with you. Above you posted 'theory=non noteable'. I can see how you hold the position you do if you believe what you wrote. However, it simply isn't true. Virtually everything written by an external reviewer about a work of fiction is 'opinion'. Get ten literature professors together, all having spent 20 years analysiing the same book and all agreeing with each other, and still all they can do is explain their theory of what the author intended. it is perfectly possible for wiki to report and explain theories about things. Whether something is considered a theory, i.e. possibly wrong, or a fact, ie probably right, is just a slightly different interpretation. Either way all we do is report what others are saying. The tone of the mugglenet book is something of a middle path between Langford, who mostly and clearly reports others views, and Granger's book, which while it clearly states what is widely held also goes into wilder speculations of the authors. The mugglenet book gives a wider exposition of the mainly mainstream theories. No doubt becaue the authors have spent a lot of time reading posts going over the mainstream theories on mugglent, but that's just my opinion.
{{ editprotected}}I believe that after this portion:
"It should also be noted that Voldemort would have wished for Regulus to come across as insignificant to him, so no one would quesion as to why Voldemort had ordered Regulus to die. Therefore, by Sirius saying that Regulus was rather unimportant to Voldemort only increases the suspicion that Regulus was indeed a major concern for Voldemort."
there should be another thing saying: "furthermore, if Regulus was as insignificant as Sirius has claimed, then Regulus would have been killed much later(as Karkaroff was killed more than a month later from his diserting).
I think perhaps this is a matter of perception. The issue is really that some wiki editors are hyper sensitive about anything which is not sourced. In real life, or in real encyclopedias, this is not the case. Encyclopedias generally rely upon their reputation rather than sourcing every single sentence. This is an obsession upon wiki, which is in danger of becoming harmfull, and comes from sourcing being the main weapon in edit warring. Thus the case in point we have here, a nonsense argument about whether people believe the locket in question is the one previously seen at Grimmauld place. Yes, of course they do, or at least believe it is a significant possibility. Style of presentation depends upon personal preferencees, as well as the nature of the argument. if you are presenting an argument, then it makes sense to present it in the way it is derived, step by step. The issue is not whether an argument is being presented to readers, but whether this is an argument from somewhere else. There is nothing wrong in presenting an argument in a clear way. Sandpiper 20:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to unprotect the page, as it has been protected for two weeks. Please take care to avoid edit wars. CMummert · talk 14:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
In dispute: The note left by R.A.B. addresses Voldemort as the Dark Lord, and Death Eaters are about the only group that customarily refers to him thus.
One of the "pieces of evidence" that has been kicked around for the last 2 years suggests R.A.B. was Regulus Black (or perhaps some other rebellious Death Eater) because the Note is addressed to "The Dark Lord", and that the only people to refer to him as such are Death Eaters. This is a false bit of original research, which cannot be sourced because it is untrue. It originated on speculative fan theory blog pages and became part of the legend-myth landscape not long after H-BP was published. The fact is, Dumbledore repeatedly refers to Voldemort as "the Dark Lord" in various conversations with Harry, as an example, so I do not believe we can continue to try to use this weak and tired bit of "proof". Now if we are able locate a reliable quote from Rowling where she states that only Death Eaters refer to Voldemort as the Dark Lord (and she may well have said so), then we can quote that as a matter of fact, but we would still need to point out the inconsistency that at the very least, Dumbledore does too. I struck the phrase - please discuss before re-adding it back in. --
T-dot (
Talk |
contribs)
10:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The section regarding the Foreign Translations of R.A.B. and the respective translations Regulus Black / Black Family name has been riddled with "citation needed" tags for several weeks now. Rather than allow the entire section to be deleted, according to the rules on uncited materials, I've added links to the respective foreign wiki-articles (Dutch, Norwegian, Finnish, Swedish), which can be "worked through" with a little patience. Some of the other-languages mentioned (Greek, Turkish) were simply too difficult to "read" for average english-only readers, due to major diferences in alphabetic structures, so I deleted them. Anyway obviously these wiki-references are not ideal as reference sources, but I think they are better than nothing at all, and it is better that the translations material stays rather than eventually getting deleted by the cleanup crew. If anyone is able to find better references, please provide them. Thanks. -- T-dot ( Talk/ contribs ) 12:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
since you both keep edit warring over this paragraph here it is, and sandpiper, i will explain what is wrong with it.
The object that replaced the real Horcrux was a locket. Dumbledore believed the real Horcrux to also be a heavy gold locket, once the property of Salazar Slytherin. Chapter Six of The Order of the Phoenix mentions a heavy, unopenable locket in a glass case at number 12 Grimmauld Place. The locket was amongst property discarded by Sirius Black as he undertook a total cleaning of the house. There was no mention of it having a Slytherin seal, which the real Slytherin locket is known to have. The locket may have been taken either by the house elf Kreacher, who was trying to save Black family artifacts from the house cleaning, or stolen by Mundungus Fletcher, who was keen to exploit the financial potential of any neglected goods. Mundungus is later spotted with a suitcase full of possessions taken from the house, and in the company of the barman from the Hog's Head.
This is all valid info, taken straight from the books, BUT, it has no place in the RAB article, since it in no way addresses who he may possibly be, instead it is relevant to the Horcrux article, where i imagine it is already included.
J. K. Rowling confirmed the barman is Dumbledore's brother Aberforth.
Has she? where, this needs a source.
Aberforth was seen drawing his cloak about his throat, as if concealing something, as he walked away from the scene.
So what, how is that relevant to RAB
It is possible that he now has the locket.
This is nothing but speculation.
Mundungus was later arrested and taken to Azkaban prison.
I can't see how that is relevant to anything at all.
According to Langford et al, many readers who have followed the series have concluded that this locket is the real horcrux, and that it is now in the possession of either Kreacher or Mundungus.
This is garbage, pure speculation. Wikipedia does not allow fansites to be used as sources, so the same could be said of fanwritten books, i mean the title of one you give as a ref is "Mugglenet.com's what will happen in Harry Potter 7". how do they know? they will be speculating just as much as anyone else. Finally, "many fnas have speculated". what, have you gone round spoken to them all. This is completely POV. -- Jac16888 12:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but being a fan does not prevent you being an expert as well. Nowhere do any rules say that being a fan invalidates a source. 'Fan' is frequently used as a term of abuse, but it has little to do with whether a source is good or bad. The issue is simply that if you want to know about wiring you ask an electrician, and about plumbing you ask a plumber, not the other way round. If you want to know about literature, you ask people who work on it a lot. Why is this a problem? Rowling herself commends the fansites to anyone wanting to know more about her books, as I seem to have pointed out rather a lot. However, this is being sourced by a best selling book, and another from an expert on this kind of literary analysis, who has indeed contributed to paper encyclopedias.
As to your argument that the information is irrelevant (rather than OR), how so? The description is about what RAB is assumed to have done. This is just as relevant as what he is known to have done. the 'speculation' is as described in the sources. Sandpiper 13:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
perhaps because it has absolutely nothing to do with RAB, it is info for the Horcrux article, it is all about where the horcrux may be, the section doesn't even mention RAB. -- Jac16888 14:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The only definitely known fact about RAB is that he took a locket and replaced it with a fake. The issue of where lockets appear in the book is inextricably connected with the identity of RAB. People discuss lockets because, surprise surprise, one was found in the home of....Regulus Black. I think it was the only other mention of a locket in the series? The fact that there was a locket mentioned in his home is further evidence of the identity of RAB. I don't understand why it is not clear to you that the reasoning why people believe RAB is Regulus is relevant to the article. Sandpiper 16:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
That would be member of the editorial team for 'The encyclopedia of fantasy' and 'The Greenwood encyclopedia of science fiction and fantasy'. The relevant word here seems to be 'fantasy' more than 'science fiction', but I fail to see how this is not his subject. Book jacket also says he is currently working on 'The encyclopedia of science fiction'. Sandpiper 13:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the following paragraph in this article, which appears to be both OR and irrelevant to the subject, and which is discussed between the involved users above:
The object that replaced the real Horcrux was a locket. Dumbledore believed the real Horcrux to also be a heavy gold locket, once the property of Salazar Slytherin. Chapter Six of The Order of the Phoenix mentions a heavy, unopenable locket in a glass case at number 12 Grimmauld Place. The locket was amongst property discarded by Sirius Black as he undertook a total cleaning of the house. There was no mention of it having a Slytherin seal, which the real Slytherin locket is known to have. The locket may have been taken either by the house elf Kreacher, who was trying to save Black family artifacts from the house cleaning, or stolen by Mundungus Fletcher, who was keen to exploit the financial potential of any neglected goods. Mundungus is later spotted with a suitcase full of possessions taken from the house, and in the company of the barman from the Hog's Head. J. K. Rowling confirmed the barman is Dumbledore's brother Aberforth. Aberforth was seen drawing his cloak about his throat, as if concealing something, as he walked away from the scene. It is possible that he now has the locket. Mundungus was later arrested and taken to Azkaban prison. According to Langford et al [1] [2] [3], many readers who have followed the series have concluded that this locket is the real horcrux, and that it is now in the possession of either Kreacher or Mundungus.
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Book title The End of Harry Potter?, David Langford, uk hardback isbn=057507875, uk publisher Golancz, p.126. Author has won 27 hugo awards and as well as being an author himself, has written for many years about other peoples fantasy. Also contributed to The Encyclopedia of Fantasy and The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (which seems to have the startling price tag of £200, so I'm not going to get one).
The item of unfinished business which is most obviously vital to the storyline of book seven is the lost Horcrux which Dumbledore and Harry go looking for in that unpleasamt cave in Half-Blood Prince. What they find and bring back to Hogwarts is not the original talisman but a different locket which has been substituted by someone called RAB. Most readers who have been following the saga closely have convinced themselves that the truth of the matter is roughly as follows:
Conclusion:Harry definitely needs to have a serious little talk with Mundungus. [end of quotation]
The book Mugglenet.com's what will happen in Harry Potter 7 by Ben Schoen and Emmerson Spartz (yes, the Spartz who was personally invited to interview Rowling and asked her about this, US publisher = Ulysses press isbn 1-56975-583-3. (hit #2 in the New York Times best seller list).
This book has a whole chapter on RAB, his being Regulus and why, and the likely location of the locket now at Grimmauld place. some quotes.
Conclusion after two pages of explanation: Taking into account the matching initials, the foreshadowing in an earlier book, and the connection with Voldemort, who is the likeliest candidate: Regulus Black
Foreign editions: Further evidence can be gleaned from foreign language editions of the book in which the Black family name has been translated. In the Norwegian edition, for instance, the Black family name is 'Svaart', and the initials on the note have changed to RAS: in the Dutch version, the name is 'Zwarts', and the initials are RAZ. The foreign-language editions the english surname of Black, however, retained the locket initials RAB. (p.99)
Discussion of how the locket was stolen:So whom did Regulus take: Who better than a creature who was magically bound to obey his every command? Kreacher, the Black family's house elf, accompanied Regulus to the island in the cave and helped him to steal Voldemort's Horcrux.
Whereabouts of the locket:It is almost certain the locket was taken to Grimmauld place...where is it now?...Kreacher..stealing small objects...Mundungus...stealing from Grimmauld Place...
One scene to look out for in the movie is whether or not Kreacher is seen taking a locket from Harry or Hermione while the pair clean Sirius' house. Since author J.K. Rowling has informed the screenwriters on what's important to include in the movie adaptations, a shot of Kreacher with the seemingly innocuous silver locket would go a long way towards proving once and for all that "R.A.B." is none other than Sirius' younger brother Regulus, a former Death Eater who was rumored to be hunted down and killed by the Dark Lord himself.
Wendy Harte, writing in 'who killed Albus dumbledore' edited by john Granger: The most compelling clue that a switch might have taken place at Grimmauld place is the existence there of a heavy locket that no one can open - a locket that careful readers with good memories assumed was the horcrux locket as soon as they learned the one from the cave was a fake. In half-Blood Prince chapter 10, Marvolo gaunt grabs his poor daughter by the necklace chain she is wearing to show bob Ogden that they are indeed Slytherin's heirs. Jo describes it as a gold chain and a heavy gold locket.
Uninvolved Comment...
I havn't read the article, but the above paragraph is full of seemingly unsourced speculation. If you want that in this article, fine. However, it does seems to go against general wikipedia policy of trying to be an encyclopedia. Rocksanddirt 20:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
right, I got you. ok, I see what your doing and have shifted my comment down here, and listed the relevant refs included in the paragraph in question. However, your latest edit to the article claims again that the paragraph is non noteable, unencyclopedic and irrelevant. An anon had already started to reinclude this missing information from scratch, so he presumably thought it was relevant to the article. why do you think it is irrelevant? Indeed, how is it non-noteable, the locket is one thing which just about everyone agrees will feature significantly in the final book. Sandpiper 08:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I have modified a bit Jac16888's last version because there's no undisputable canonical element allowing us to link the locket Horcrux with the unidentified locket at Grimmault Place (and we want to avoid OR by synthesis). We'll have to wait book 7 for this one, sorry. Folken de Fanel 12:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
i reverted that back because, if you read it, it doesn't actually link the two together, it just points out the existence of another locket where regulus lived. without it, the sentence is just saying the horcrux may be a locket, which is kinda irrelevant-- Jac16888 12:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
First of all, we are not supposed to "conclude" anything, wikipedia is for facts. secondly, you are still refusing to address the fact that the section lends no support to the view that regulus is rab. i'm not saying that the discovery of a locket in the house of black shouldn't be included, i'm saying that we don't need a full anaylsis of where it is now.-- Jac16888 22:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Can't say as i do. Anyway, jac, i take it then that you are happy to mention that the locket was found at grimmauld place? Moving on to its current whereabouts, RAB as an article is not simply about 'who is RAB'. It is about the whole RAB puzzle, which starts when Dumbledore and harry go searching for a locket. It is relevant what finally happened to that locket. I don't see how anyone reading this article would not want that information included. Sandpiper 20:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
it doesn't matter how long it has been here, the fact remains that, not only do you refuse to conmpromise(i would rather have no section at all, but am willing to have the reduced version), you refuse to answer the main concern, that is that most of it lends nothing to the argument that rab is regulus, it is a section for the horcrux, not here.-- Jac16888 10:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
What I am saying is that I do not agree the information is not relevant to this page. Your opinion is that it is irrelevant, mine is that it is directly relevant, and that you misconceive the purpose of this page. The history of the page shows that many editors over the years have agreed with its retention on the page. This has only been an issue since Folken has been persistently deleting it. Sandpiper 14:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Very kind of you to describe them as valuable. I just think they report the status quo as it is today, which is what the article ought to do. There may be a new book in a months time, and the article is very likely to be changed when it is published. However, changing it now because of a 'guess' as to what will be in that book is exactly the sort of thing forbidden by the policy on 'crystal ball' writing. We report the facts as they are now, not as they will be in a month, because we don't know what the facts will be in a month. The facts right now are as described in the article (from time to time) and as explained in the best available references. Why is there a difficulty including references from writers about fantasy, from people who have clearly become experts in this field, for an article describing peoples views on the series so far? What kind of source do you think is appropriate in such circumstances, we are writing about fiction. It seems to me that some people take this rather too seriously. I really don't see why simply pointing people in the direction of a couple of websites recommended by Rowling shouldn't be sufficient referencing for a topical debate most noteably happening on the internet. Sandpiper 07:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
oh and by the way, i was being sarcastic.
This archive has been nominated for deletion. I haven't a clue as to why. If someone would sort that out, I'd appreciate it. Rklawton 05:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
In the first section of the article, it mentions people with "unknown christian or middle names". Should this say "unknown first or middle names", as the religions of the characters are not mentioned in the books? I don't see why it should be called a "Christian name". "First name" seems to be more appropriate. Cdlw93 08:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I think it should be "first and middle" or "given and middle."
Jrgilmore
02:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any possible locations for the existing locket if it were destroyed and made safe, you may account for any persons that are possible RAB.
Any suggestions may be important to include on the page.
For instance if RAB were Regulus A Black then examples could be as following:
The last could be important for the identity of RAB
T saston
21:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I correctly identified the location of the locket of Salazar Slytherin before reading the book, hows that for a guess and imagine my surprise when i just read that part in the Deathly Hallows.
T saston
15:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The True Identidity of R.A.B. as known in the last installment on the book is that he is Sirus's Brother, I can post a image detailing this if needed. =)
Here's a link I found [4]
It's legit, I have a friend who had the file, and I've read the entire book.
Alexbrewer 00:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
What is to happen to this article after HP7 comes out? Simply south 20:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Should we include other identities assumed to be RAB before Regulus, such as say Mr Borgin (What's his first name) and others Hermione mentioned? T saston 14:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Should be be merged to Regulus Black now? -- Ayleuss 13:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten the lead of the article to make this an article about the mystery of R.A.B., which is (potentially) a meaningfully different topic than Regulus Black. If the articles are to remain separate, which, apparently, right now they are, this is a sensible way to divide them - this one about the literary mystery/phenomenon, the other about the fictional character. Phil Sandifer 18:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 23 July 2005. The result of the discussion was keep (no consensus). |
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Ulysses press, published 2006, isbn10 1560755833, ISBN13 9781569755839, authors Ben Schoen and Emmerson Spatz. This has a whole chapter on RAB. Just about everything in our article is in there. A few quotes: taking into consideration the matching initials, the forshadowing in an earlier book, and the connection with Voldemort, who is the likeliest candidate? Regulus Black.
So whom did Regulus take {to help steal the locket]? Who better than a creature who was magically bound to obey his every command? Kreacher, the Black family house elf.
If Regulus, with the help of Kreacher, took the locket Horcrux, where is it now? It is almost certain that the locket was taken to Grimmauld Place.
Incidentally, I just discovered that Mugglenet's book [1] [2] about DH has printed 300,000 copies and is currently the number two best selling childrens paperback, after Eldest. Are you really claiming that no one is interested in what will happen in the next book? Even books discussing it are now becoming best sellers. This is highly noteable. Sandpiper 15:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I do hate it when the rules defy common sense. Rather suggests they need amending, doesn't it? Still, at least it says it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. I see it also says Notability guidelines determine whether a topic is sufficiently notable to be included as a separate article in Wikipedia. These guidelines do not specifically regulate the content of articles,... . So in fact this guideline might arguably say we should not have an article titled 'The Horcrux locket at Grimmauld place', but is completely irrelevant to what we mention in this article. Though given the widespread nature of that theory and the fact that the noteability criteria says A topic is notable if it has received significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, then perhaps we should start an independant article for this noteable theory. I see the section on popularity does however suggest that Secondary source availability and depth of coverage, not popularity or fame, establishes notability, so on all counts it is noteable. Sandpiper 00:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Folken, the difficulty is your persistent claim that material is unsourced, and that this justifies your behaviour. Whatever view you have does not allow you to edit disruptively, to ignore rules, or claim others are editing badly just because they do not agree with you. Above you posted 'theory=non noteable'. I can see how you hold the position you do if you believe what you wrote. However, it simply isn't true. Virtually everything written by an external reviewer about a work of fiction is 'opinion'. Get ten literature professors together, all having spent 20 years analysiing the same book and all agreeing with each other, and still all they can do is explain their theory of what the author intended. it is perfectly possible for wiki to report and explain theories about things. Whether something is considered a theory, i.e. possibly wrong, or a fact, ie probably right, is just a slightly different interpretation. Either way all we do is report what others are saying. The tone of the mugglenet book is something of a middle path between Langford, who mostly and clearly reports others views, and Granger's book, which while it clearly states what is widely held also goes into wilder speculations of the authors. The mugglenet book gives a wider exposition of the mainly mainstream theories. No doubt becaue the authors have spent a lot of time reading posts going over the mainstream theories on mugglent, but that's just my opinion.
{{ editprotected}}I believe that after this portion:
"It should also be noted that Voldemort would have wished for Regulus to come across as insignificant to him, so no one would quesion as to why Voldemort had ordered Regulus to die. Therefore, by Sirius saying that Regulus was rather unimportant to Voldemort only increases the suspicion that Regulus was indeed a major concern for Voldemort."
there should be another thing saying: "furthermore, if Regulus was as insignificant as Sirius has claimed, then Regulus would have been killed much later(as Karkaroff was killed more than a month later from his diserting).
I think perhaps this is a matter of perception. The issue is really that some wiki editors are hyper sensitive about anything which is not sourced. In real life, or in real encyclopedias, this is not the case. Encyclopedias generally rely upon their reputation rather than sourcing every single sentence. This is an obsession upon wiki, which is in danger of becoming harmfull, and comes from sourcing being the main weapon in edit warring. Thus the case in point we have here, a nonsense argument about whether people believe the locket in question is the one previously seen at Grimmauld place. Yes, of course they do, or at least believe it is a significant possibility. Style of presentation depends upon personal preferencees, as well as the nature of the argument. if you are presenting an argument, then it makes sense to present it in the way it is derived, step by step. The issue is not whether an argument is being presented to readers, but whether this is an argument from somewhere else. There is nothing wrong in presenting an argument in a clear way. Sandpiper 20:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to unprotect the page, as it has been protected for two weeks. Please take care to avoid edit wars. CMummert · talk 14:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
In dispute: The note left by R.A.B. addresses Voldemort as the Dark Lord, and Death Eaters are about the only group that customarily refers to him thus.
One of the "pieces of evidence" that has been kicked around for the last 2 years suggests R.A.B. was Regulus Black (or perhaps some other rebellious Death Eater) because the Note is addressed to "The Dark Lord", and that the only people to refer to him as such are Death Eaters. This is a false bit of original research, which cannot be sourced because it is untrue. It originated on speculative fan theory blog pages and became part of the legend-myth landscape not long after H-BP was published. The fact is, Dumbledore repeatedly refers to Voldemort as "the Dark Lord" in various conversations with Harry, as an example, so I do not believe we can continue to try to use this weak and tired bit of "proof". Now if we are able locate a reliable quote from Rowling where she states that only Death Eaters refer to Voldemort as the Dark Lord (and she may well have said so), then we can quote that as a matter of fact, but we would still need to point out the inconsistency that at the very least, Dumbledore does too. I struck the phrase - please discuss before re-adding it back in. --
T-dot (
Talk |
contribs)
10:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The section regarding the Foreign Translations of R.A.B. and the respective translations Regulus Black / Black Family name has been riddled with "citation needed" tags for several weeks now. Rather than allow the entire section to be deleted, according to the rules on uncited materials, I've added links to the respective foreign wiki-articles (Dutch, Norwegian, Finnish, Swedish), which can be "worked through" with a little patience. Some of the other-languages mentioned (Greek, Turkish) were simply too difficult to "read" for average english-only readers, due to major diferences in alphabetic structures, so I deleted them. Anyway obviously these wiki-references are not ideal as reference sources, but I think they are better than nothing at all, and it is better that the translations material stays rather than eventually getting deleted by the cleanup crew. If anyone is able to find better references, please provide them. Thanks. -- T-dot ( Talk/ contribs ) 12:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
since you both keep edit warring over this paragraph here it is, and sandpiper, i will explain what is wrong with it.
The object that replaced the real Horcrux was a locket. Dumbledore believed the real Horcrux to also be a heavy gold locket, once the property of Salazar Slytherin. Chapter Six of The Order of the Phoenix mentions a heavy, unopenable locket in a glass case at number 12 Grimmauld Place. The locket was amongst property discarded by Sirius Black as he undertook a total cleaning of the house. There was no mention of it having a Slytherin seal, which the real Slytherin locket is known to have. The locket may have been taken either by the house elf Kreacher, who was trying to save Black family artifacts from the house cleaning, or stolen by Mundungus Fletcher, who was keen to exploit the financial potential of any neglected goods. Mundungus is later spotted with a suitcase full of possessions taken from the house, and in the company of the barman from the Hog's Head.
This is all valid info, taken straight from the books, BUT, it has no place in the RAB article, since it in no way addresses who he may possibly be, instead it is relevant to the Horcrux article, where i imagine it is already included.
J. K. Rowling confirmed the barman is Dumbledore's brother Aberforth.
Has she? where, this needs a source.
Aberforth was seen drawing his cloak about his throat, as if concealing something, as he walked away from the scene.
So what, how is that relevant to RAB
It is possible that he now has the locket.
This is nothing but speculation.
Mundungus was later arrested and taken to Azkaban prison.
I can't see how that is relevant to anything at all.
According to Langford et al, many readers who have followed the series have concluded that this locket is the real horcrux, and that it is now in the possession of either Kreacher or Mundungus.
This is garbage, pure speculation. Wikipedia does not allow fansites to be used as sources, so the same could be said of fanwritten books, i mean the title of one you give as a ref is "Mugglenet.com's what will happen in Harry Potter 7". how do they know? they will be speculating just as much as anyone else. Finally, "many fnas have speculated". what, have you gone round spoken to them all. This is completely POV. -- Jac16888 12:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but being a fan does not prevent you being an expert as well. Nowhere do any rules say that being a fan invalidates a source. 'Fan' is frequently used as a term of abuse, but it has little to do with whether a source is good or bad. The issue is simply that if you want to know about wiring you ask an electrician, and about plumbing you ask a plumber, not the other way round. If you want to know about literature, you ask people who work on it a lot. Why is this a problem? Rowling herself commends the fansites to anyone wanting to know more about her books, as I seem to have pointed out rather a lot. However, this is being sourced by a best selling book, and another from an expert on this kind of literary analysis, who has indeed contributed to paper encyclopedias.
As to your argument that the information is irrelevant (rather than OR), how so? The description is about what RAB is assumed to have done. This is just as relevant as what he is known to have done. the 'speculation' is as described in the sources. Sandpiper 13:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
perhaps because it has absolutely nothing to do with RAB, it is info for the Horcrux article, it is all about where the horcrux may be, the section doesn't even mention RAB. -- Jac16888 14:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The only definitely known fact about RAB is that he took a locket and replaced it with a fake. The issue of where lockets appear in the book is inextricably connected with the identity of RAB. People discuss lockets because, surprise surprise, one was found in the home of....Regulus Black. I think it was the only other mention of a locket in the series? The fact that there was a locket mentioned in his home is further evidence of the identity of RAB. I don't understand why it is not clear to you that the reasoning why people believe RAB is Regulus is relevant to the article. Sandpiper 16:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
That would be member of the editorial team for 'The encyclopedia of fantasy' and 'The Greenwood encyclopedia of science fiction and fantasy'. The relevant word here seems to be 'fantasy' more than 'science fiction', but I fail to see how this is not his subject. Book jacket also says he is currently working on 'The encyclopedia of science fiction'. Sandpiper 13:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the following paragraph in this article, which appears to be both OR and irrelevant to the subject, and which is discussed between the involved users above:
The object that replaced the real Horcrux was a locket. Dumbledore believed the real Horcrux to also be a heavy gold locket, once the property of Salazar Slytherin. Chapter Six of The Order of the Phoenix mentions a heavy, unopenable locket in a glass case at number 12 Grimmauld Place. The locket was amongst property discarded by Sirius Black as he undertook a total cleaning of the house. There was no mention of it having a Slytherin seal, which the real Slytherin locket is known to have. The locket may have been taken either by the house elf Kreacher, who was trying to save Black family artifacts from the house cleaning, or stolen by Mundungus Fletcher, who was keen to exploit the financial potential of any neglected goods. Mundungus is later spotted with a suitcase full of possessions taken from the house, and in the company of the barman from the Hog's Head. J. K. Rowling confirmed the barman is Dumbledore's brother Aberforth. Aberforth was seen drawing his cloak about his throat, as if concealing something, as he walked away from the scene. It is possible that he now has the locket. Mundungus was later arrested and taken to Azkaban prison. According to Langford et al [1] [2] [3], many readers who have followed the series have concluded that this locket is the real horcrux, and that it is now in the possession of either Kreacher or Mundungus.
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Book title The End of Harry Potter?, David Langford, uk hardback isbn=057507875, uk publisher Golancz, p.126. Author has won 27 hugo awards and as well as being an author himself, has written for many years about other peoples fantasy. Also contributed to The Encyclopedia of Fantasy and The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (which seems to have the startling price tag of £200, so I'm not going to get one).
The item of unfinished business which is most obviously vital to the storyline of book seven is the lost Horcrux which Dumbledore and Harry go looking for in that unpleasamt cave in Half-Blood Prince. What they find and bring back to Hogwarts is not the original talisman but a different locket which has been substituted by someone called RAB. Most readers who have been following the saga closely have convinced themselves that the truth of the matter is roughly as follows:
Conclusion:Harry definitely needs to have a serious little talk with Mundungus. [end of quotation]
The book Mugglenet.com's what will happen in Harry Potter 7 by Ben Schoen and Emmerson Spartz (yes, the Spartz who was personally invited to interview Rowling and asked her about this, US publisher = Ulysses press isbn 1-56975-583-3. (hit #2 in the New York Times best seller list).
This book has a whole chapter on RAB, his being Regulus and why, and the likely location of the locket now at Grimmauld place. some quotes.
Conclusion after two pages of explanation: Taking into account the matching initials, the foreshadowing in an earlier book, and the connection with Voldemort, who is the likeliest candidate: Regulus Black
Foreign editions: Further evidence can be gleaned from foreign language editions of the book in which the Black family name has been translated. In the Norwegian edition, for instance, the Black family name is 'Svaart', and the initials on the note have changed to RAS: in the Dutch version, the name is 'Zwarts', and the initials are RAZ. The foreign-language editions the english surname of Black, however, retained the locket initials RAB. (p.99)
Discussion of how the locket was stolen:So whom did Regulus take: Who better than a creature who was magically bound to obey his every command? Kreacher, the Black family's house elf, accompanied Regulus to the island in the cave and helped him to steal Voldemort's Horcrux.
Whereabouts of the locket:It is almost certain the locket was taken to Grimmauld place...where is it now?...Kreacher..stealing small objects...Mundungus...stealing from Grimmauld Place...
One scene to look out for in the movie is whether or not Kreacher is seen taking a locket from Harry or Hermione while the pair clean Sirius' house. Since author J.K. Rowling has informed the screenwriters on what's important to include in the movie adaptations, a shot of Kreacher with the seemingly innocuous silver locket would go a long way towards proving once and for all that "R.A.B." is none other than Sirius' younger brother Regulus, a former Death Eater who was rumored to be hunted down and killed by the Dark Lord himself.
Wendy Harte, writing in 'who killed Albus dumbledore' edited by john Granger: The most compelling clue that a switch might have taken place at Grimmauld place is the existence there of a heavy locket that no one can open - a locket that careful readers with good memories assumed was the horcrux locket as soon as they learned the one from the cave was a fake. In half-Blood Prince chapter 10, Marvolo gaunt grabs his poor daughter by the necklace chain she is wearing to show bob Ogden that they are indeed Slytherin's heirs. Jo describes it as a gold chain and a heavy gold locket.
Uninvolved Comment...
I havn't read the article, but the above paragraph is full of seemingly unsourced speculation. If you want that in this article, fine. However, it does seems to go against general wikipedia policy of trying to be an encyclopedia. Rocksanddirt 20:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
right, I got you. ok, I see what your doing and have shifted my comment down here, and listed the relevant refs included in the paragraph in question. However, your latest edit to the article claims again that the paragraph is non noteable, unencyclopedic and irrelevant. An anon had already started to reinclude this missing information from scratch, so he presumably thought it was relevant to the article. why do you think it is irrelevant? Indeed, how is it non-noteable, the locket is one thing which just about everyone agrees will feature significantly in the final book. Sandpiper 08:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I have modified a bit Jac16888's last version because there's no undisputable canonical element allowing us to link the locket Horcrux with the unidentified locket at Grimmault Place (and we want to avoid OR by synthesis). We'll have to wait book 7 for this one, sorry. Folken de Fanel 12:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
i reverted that back because, if you read it, it doesn't actually link the two together, it just points out the existence of another locket where regulus lived. without it, the sentence is just saying the horcrux may be a locket, which is kinda irrelevant-- Jac16888 12:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
First of all, we are not supposed to "conclude" anything, wikipedia is for facts. secondly, you are still refusing to address the fact that the section lends no support to the view that regulus is rab. i'm not saying that the discovery of a locket in the house of black shouldn't be included, i'm saying that we don't need a full anaylsis of where it is now.-- Jac16888 22:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Can't say as i do. Anyway, jac, i take it then that you are happy to mention that the locket was found at grimmauld place? Moving on to its current whereabouts, RAB as an article is not simply about 'who is RAB'. It is about the whole RAB puzzle, which starts when Dumbledore and harry go searching for a locket. It is relevant what finally happened to that locket. I don't see how anyone reading this article would not want that information included. Sandpiper 20:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
it doesn't matter how long it has been here, the fact remains that, not only do you refuse to conmpromise(i would rather have no section at all, but am willing to have the reduced version), you refuse to answer the main concern, that is that most of it lends nothing to the argument that rab is regulus, it is a section for the horcrux, not here.-- Jac16888 10:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
What I am saying is that I do not agree the information is not relevant to this page. Your opinion is that it is irrelevant, mine is that it is directly relevant, and that you misconceive the purpose of this page. The history of the page shows that many editors over the years have agreed with its retention on the page. This has only been an issue since Folken has been persistently deleting it. Sandpiper 14:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Very kind of you to describe them as valuable. I just think they report the status quo as it is today, which is what the article ought to do. There may be a new book in a months time, and the article is very likely to be changed when it is published. However, changing it now because of a 'guess' as to what will be in that book is exactly the sort of thing forbidden by the policy on 'crystal ball' writing. We report the facts as they are now, not as they will be in a month, because we don't know what the facts will be in a month. The facts right now are as described in the article (from time to time) and as explained in the best available references. Why is there a difficulty including references from writers about fantasy, from people who have clearly become experts in this field, for an article describing peoples views on the series so far? What kind of source do you think is appropriate in such circumstances, we are writing about fiction. It seems to me that some people take this rather too seriously. I really don't see why simply pointing people in the direction of a couple of websites recommended by Rowling shouldn't be sufficient referencing for a topical debate most noteably happening on the internet. Sandpiper 07:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
oh and by the way, i was being sarcastic.
This archive has been nominated for deletion. I haven't a clue as to why. If someone would sort that out, I'd appreciate it. Rklawton 05:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
In the first section of the article, it mentions people with "unknown christian or middle names". Should this say "unknown first or middle names", as the religions of the characters are not mentioned in the books? I don't see why it should be called a "Christian name". "First name" seems to be more appropriate. Cdlw93 08:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I think it should be "first and middle" or "given and middle."
Jrgilmore
02:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any possible locations for the existing locket if it were destroyed and made safe, you may account for any persons that are possible RAB.
Any suggestions may be important to include on the page.
For instance if RAB were Regulus A Black then examples could be as following:
The last could be important for the identity of RAB
T saston
21:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I correctly identified the location of the locket of Salazar Slytherin before reading the book, hows that for a guess and imagine my surprise when i just read that part in the Deathly Hallows.
T saston
15:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The True Identidity of R.A.B. as known in the last installment on the book is that he is Sirus's Brother, I can post a image detailing this if needed. =)
Here's a link I found [4]
It's legit, I have a friend who had the file, and I've read the entire book.
Alexbrewer 00:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
What is to happen to this article after HP7 comes out? Simply south 20:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Should we include other identities assumed to be RAB before Regulus, such as say Mr Borgin (What's his first name) and others Hermione mentioned? T saston 14:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Should be be merged to Regulus Black now? -- Ayleuss 13:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten the lead of the article to make this an article about the mystery of R.A.B., which is (potentially) a meaningfully different topic than Regulus Black. If the articles are to remain separate, which, apparently, right now they are, this is a sensible way to divide them - this one about the literary mystery/phenomenon, the other about the fictional character. Phil Sandifer 18:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)