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This article has been butchered and is now unreadable.
Please read the reference before attempting to change the text. The period of the Circassian Mamelukes starts with Sultan Barkuk in the second Mameluke era. -- Chapultepec 18:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The reference is an european text book, in most of the arabic and turkish history books, many of the Bahri sultans were circassian, Aybak, Qutuz and Baibars are among them.
____________________________________________________________
Qutuz was the third turkic Sultan after Aybak and Al-Mansur Ali. Samsam22 20:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Actualy the third sultan was the nominal Sultan al-Malik al-Mansur Nour ad-Din Ali son of Aybek Some historians however consider Shajar ad-durr as the first Turkic Sultan . Samsam22 ( talk) 02:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________
Aybak Al-Turkumani , his name says it already :) Samsam22 ( talk) 21:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Is there any relation between Qutuz and Kutuzoff family in Russia ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.27.38.240 ( talk) 16:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Qutuz is from Khwarezm not from Russia Isa Alcala ( talk) 01:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
This article has several dozen citations to medieval historians. For various reasons, primarily unreliability and bias, Wikipedia has rules against the use of primary sources. See WP:PRIMARY for more detail. MapMaster ( talk) 14:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
These are chronological events not X-rays that need figuring out by a medical doctor. We are not analyzing history and events but quoting events as mentioned by historians and Chronologers. That is to say, to use your own example, we are exposing the x-rays only and not analyzing them or taking conclusions . If you do not trust yourself to understand chronological events or to quote chronologic events as written by Chronologers then you can not write about history. The chronoligic events are refered , if you can not have the source-books and read them then it is hard for you to judge. Please do not delete notes again. As I was a student of Islamic history and archeology , Egyptology and Anthropology in Egypt and in the west, I have many expensive and hard to obtain source-books and manuscripts. When I share that here it is good for students and readers searching for knowldge. As for the position of Qutuz in Islamic history I do not need to verify a well known fact known to a school boy in an Islamic country. Maybe because you can not read arabic you do not know that but a simple thing to do is to copy past the following word on Google search and see " قطز " Qutuz and Saladin are the most known Sultans in the Islamic world. Qutuz is even more known and praised than Baibars and Al-Ashraf Khalil. And by the way, this letter of Hulagu to Qutuz which you put on Ain Jalut article does not match the orginal message and you should delete or replace :) Samsam22 ( talk) 18:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
MapMaster, I think you are confused or something. We are just quoting what every one said whether Mamluk historians or modern historians. We are not concluding anything. Again I tell you that Mamluk historians included Baibars in the conspiracy. They differed about the act itself. Modern historians took it over and each selected his version. We are telling that that is all . I think all the case you are thinking Muslim historians said Baibars not took part but the western historians said no he took part. Sorry this is not the case, It is not a racial conflict my friend. Muslim historians both Mamluks and modern said Basibars was involved. Western historians took it over and did not say a new thing. We only telling about the versions. I hope you understood now. By the way do not keep saying primary sources are banned. Wikipedea only means that you should not build conclusions upon primary sources and that is correct. Some western historians can not even read Mamluk names so should we write the wrong names which they wrote ! Again, I should remind you that David Tschanz is not a historian but studied history and works for an oil company in Saudia Arabia. His version on the Aramco Oil Company site is based on story of Ibn Khaldun ( probably you do not know that. ). That is all ok but there are a few other versions so do not keep stuck to one version just because Tschanz quoted it. Probably Mr. Tschanz would add the other versions if he write the story in a book.:) Samsam22 ( talk) 21:18, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Talking about Primary sources and manuscripts, I received from Egypt a few days a go a very intersting and rare manuscript titled "Al-Roud Al-Zahir Fi Sirat Al-Malik Al-Zahir Tatar" about Sultan Al-Zahhir Tatar ( Burji Sultan ) written by his biographer and contemporary Mahmud ben Ahmad Al-Badr Aini. If someone likes to have a copy for his study should tell me. It is in Arabic. Samsam22 ( talk) 23:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok go ask for an opinion, if they say that it is a must and Al-Maqrizi and Ibn-Taghri and Ibn Iyas are not reliable sources I will support what is written by secondary source. Tell them also that articles about Mamluk Sultans which their names are in red and black on this page Mamluk can not be written from secondary source because western writers did not write about them. So see how you write about them on Wikipedia. On my user page I mentioned : The biography of of Sultan Shihab ad-Din Ahmad was my last biography of Mamluk sultans. I will resume only on request. Samsam22 ( talk) 00:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
What about these quotes from the links you provided? "History as an academic discipline is based on primary sources", " Arthur Marwick says "Primary sources are absolutely fundamental to history."" and "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation". I read through what you posted and it seems to say that primary sources are only bad if we interpret from them. Again I say that interpretations were not made. Thus the quote, "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation" shows us that we don't need a secondary source because no one made interpretations. We are using books written by historians.
Isa Alcala (
talk) 04:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
He was a just Turkic origin. Being born in Iran, doesn't make he Iranian. At that time, there were too many Turks in Iran, and the ruling dynasty of Iran was also Turkic. He has nothing to do with being Iranian. Moreover, he ruled not even Iran but the mamluks(Bahri Dynasty). He didn't rule Iran or wasnt Iranian. Please, don't change this. He is just turkic. He is only Turkic in every source. Taerelo ( talk) 10:20, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
brother of Qutuz's mother 84.215.179.160 ( talk) 00:07, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 24, 2009, October 24, 2010, October 24, 2011, October 24, 2013, October 24, 2016, October 24, 2019, October 24, 2020, and October 24, 2023. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article has been butchered and is now unreadable.
Please read the reference before attempting to change the text. The period of the Circassian Mamelukes starts with Sultan Barkuk in the second Mameluke era. -- Chapultepec 18:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The reference is an european text book, in most of the arabic and turkish history books, many of the Bahri sultans were circassian, Aybak, Qutuz and Baibars are among them.
____________________________________________________________
Qutuz was the third turkic Sultan after Aybak and Al-Mansur Ali. Samsam22 20:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Actualy the third sultan was the nominal Sultan al-Malik al-Mansur Nour ad-Din Ali son of Aybek Some historians however consider Shajar ad-durr as the first Turkic Sultan . Samsam22 ( talk) 02:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________
Aybak Al-Turkumani , his name says it already :) Samsam22 ( talk) 21:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Is there any relation between Qutuz and Kutuzoff family in Russia ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.27.38.240 ( talk) 16:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Qutuz is from Khwarezm not from Russia Isa Alcala ( talk) 01:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
This article has several dozen citations to medieval historians. For various reasons, primarily unreliability and bias, Wikipedia has rules against the use of primary sources. See WP:PRIMARY for more detail. MapMaster ( talk) 14:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
These are chronological events not X-rays that need figuring out by a medical doctor. We are not analyzing history and events but quoting events as mentioned by historians and Chronologers. That is to say, to use your own example, we are exposing the x-rays only and not analyzing them or taking conclusions . If you do not trust yourself to understand chronological events or to quote chronologic events as written by Chronologers then you can not write about history. The chronoligic events are refered , if you can not have the source-books and read them then it is hard for you to judge. Please do not delete notes again. As I was a student of Islamic history and archeology , Egyptology and Anthropology in Egypt and in the west, I have many expensive and hard to obtain source-books and manuscripts. When I share that here it is good for students and readers searching for knowldge. As for the position of Qutuz in Islamic history I do not need to verify a well known fact known to a school boy in an Islamic country. Maybe because you can not read arabic you do not know that but a simple thing to do is to copy past the following word on Google search and see " قطز " Qutuz and Saladin are the most known Sultans in the Islamic world. Qutuz is even more known and praised than Baibars and Al-Ashraf Khalil. And by the way, this letter of Hulagu to Qutuz which you put on Ain Jalut article does not match the orginal message and you should delete or replace :) Samsam22 ( talk) 18:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
MapMaster, I think you are confused or something. We are just quoting what every one said whether Mamluk historians or modern historians. We are not concluding anything. Again I tell you that Mamluk historians included Baibars in the conspiracy. They differed about the act itself. Modern historians took it over and each selected his version. We are telling that that is all . I think all the case you are thinking Muslim historians said Baibars not took part but the western historians said no he took part. Sorry this is not the case, It is not a racial conflict my friend. Muslim historians both Mamluks and modern said Basibars was involved. Western historians took it over and did not say a new thing. We only telling about the versions. I hope you understood now. By the way do not keep saying primary sources are banned. Wikipedea only means that you should not build conclusions upon primary sources and that is correct. Some western historians can not even read Mamluk names so should we write the wrong names which they wrote ! Again, I should remind you that David Tschanz is not a historian but studied history and works for an oil company in Saudia Arabia. His version on the Aramco Oil Company site is based on story of Ibn Khaldun ( probably you do not know that. ). That is all ok but there are a few other versions so do not keep stuck to one version just because Tschanz quoted it. Probably Mr. Tschanz would add the other versions if he write the story in a book.:) Samsam22 ( talk) 21:18, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Talking about Primary sources and manuscripts, I received from Egypt a few days a go a very intersting and rare manuscript titled "Al-Roud Al-Zahir Fi Sirat Al-Malik Al-Zahir Tatar" about Sultan Al-Zahhir Tatar ( Burji Sultan ) written by his biographer and contemporary Mahmud ben Ahmad Al-Badr Aini. If someone likes to have a copy for his study should tell me. It is in Arabic. Samsam22 ( talk) 23:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok go ask for an opinion, if they say that it is a must and Al-Maqrizi and Ibn-Taghri and Ibn Iyas are not reliable sources I will support what is written by secondary source. Tell them also that articles about Mamluk Sultans which their names are in red and black on this page Mamluk can not be written from secondary source because western writers did not write about them. So see how you write about them on Wikipedia. On my user page I mentioned : The biography of of Sultan Shihab ad-Din Ahmad was my last biography of Mamluk sultans. I will resume only on request. Samsam22 ( talk) 00:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
What about these quotes from the links you provided? "History as an academic discipline is based on primary sources", " Arthur Marwick says "Primary sources are absolutely fundamental to history."" and "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation". I read through what you posted and it seems to say that primary sources are only bad if we interpret from them. Again I say that interpretations were not made. Thus the quote, "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation" shows us that we don't need a secondary source because no one made interpretations. We are using books written by historians.
Isa Alcala (
talk) 04:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
He was a just Turkic origin. Being born in Iran, doesn't make he Iranian. At that time, there were too many Turks in Iran, and the ruling dynasty of Iran was also Turkic. He has nothing to do with being Iranian. Moreover, he ruled not even Iran but the mamluks(Bahri Dynasty). He didn't rule Iran or wasnt Iranian. Please, don't change this. He is just turkic. He is only Turkic in every source. Taerelo ( talk) 10:20, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
brother of Qutuz's mother 84.215.179.160 ( talk) 00:07, 5 April 2023 (UTC)