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This page is misleading as there is nothing like Qutbi Bohra . This name is used to defame a split of group. The links given have no evidence . Most of the links are forum discussion hence delete the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.21.126.78 ( talk) 08:21, February 4, 2014
Please refer to the 'discussion of above points' tab to get the complete picture. The below mentioned discussion is the continuation of the above points. Read them together to get a complete and true picture. Again i would like to reiterate that Qutbi Bohra is a sect formed by Khuzaima Qutbuddin and i have provided the above mentioned references for the same. All arguments regarding non exsistance and repeated vandalisaton of the article suggests that efforts are being put in to hide it. Otherwise why would anyone even try to vandalise an article so many times risking being blocked. I would request that this article be looked at in an informative point of view and not make it a war zone of any person's perspective. Nobody can change what has been done in the past. Closing one's eyes to the truth or claiming falsely that an event that has taken place in the past has not taken place for whatever reasons, maybe for some personal gain, will not change the past. Just as Qutbi Bohra was mentioned in the newspapers and prominent websites and newsletter, every action or act done leaves some or the other kind of marks behind. Claiming ignorance to all these evidence and only mentioning discussion forums is like closing one's eyes to the facts, to the truth. Furthermore claiming Qutbi Bohra to be related to succession issue is another story made up to cover facts. Qutbi Bohra was born well before the succession issue even started as can be seen from newspsper references. And Qutbi Bohra's exsistance has remained since then can be seen from its reference in the current newspaper articles. Again the false claim that Progressive Dawoodi Bohra is not connected to Qutbi Bohra can be clearly seen by the support given by the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra members or its factions to Khuzaima Qutbuddin in various current articles of succession issue. Why would members of the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra sect support a person who is claiming to be the successor of Dawoodi Bohra sect, from which Progressive Dawoodi Bohra had seperated from in 1977? All these point to an effort to hide the truth and this article has become a place to show it. By vandalising it, nominating it for deletion, making false claims against it, putting up a link on the same discussion forum, whose link is given by Ftutocdg under 'Relist', to support this article for deletion and what not must have been done. I don't know the intracities of Wikipedia, yet as i am very new here. I like to write articles on various topics. I love it here in Wikipedia. I have updated some articles to the best of my knowledge about them. Coming back to Qutbi Bohra article i would request the editors, administrators to guide me as to how to save this article. Thank you. Araz5152 ( talk) 22:49, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
you get your own anwser... Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Example quoted from your article : "The then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin founded the Qutbi Bohra sect in 2004 in Udaipur starting a new progressive movement, which was the materialisation of a thought process that had started many years back"
Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Example quoted from your article : " ... Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin bagan to aggressively oppose the policies of His Holiness ... "
Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Example quoted from your article : "Finally the then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin was designated by majority as the leader of Qutbi Bohra sub sect ..." Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
example 1 "but the then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin bagan to aggressively oppose the policies of His Holiness Dr. Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (RA)"
example 2 "The then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin used the money and power of position given to him by the Dawoodi Bohra sect to further the growth of Qutbi sect" Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
so this PDF is your only proof? Not a reliable source, sorry. Like your other references. Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
We are on Wikipedia: it is an encyclopedia. Not a vulgar tabloid. Therefore contribute and write articles with factual references. Thank you. Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Qutbi Bohra is a totally seperately formed sect and it has been inviting members of Progressive Dawoodi Bohra members to join them, so merging these two articles would present a totally wrong picture. These two sects share only ideology but PDB was led by Asghar Ali Engineer, now his son or whoever is nominated. While Qutbi Bohra is formed and lead by the then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin. And it is not related to the succession issue at all, because in the succession issue the then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin has claimed leadership of Dawoodi Bohra sect. But he is already the undisputed leader of this Qutbi Bohra sub sect. And it is quite clearly not concerned with the running of this sect that has already being formed. Furthermore some more text has been deleted, it changes the meaning and history of the formation of the sect. I hereby seek protection against such vandalism and put in a request to edit protect this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Araz5152 ( talk • contribs) 17:21, February 5, 2014
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) -- 59.160.12.114 ( talk) 11:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)The links are not verified links all are just forum links
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --
all that is written is true — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
117.198.198.19 (
talk) 11:41, February 4, 2014
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) -- 65.255.37.220 ( talk) 12:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
From what I can see, this appears to be the same movement as Progressive Dawoodi Bohra. If that's the case, the content and sources here should probably be merged to that page. I'm not an expert on Islamic sects, however, so would appreciate clarification from someone with more knowledge of the area before proposing a merge. Yunshui 雲 水 15:08, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Qutbi_Bohra
- No official statement of the existence of such a sect
- false allegations
- defamatory article
- Imagination of the author
- No neutrality
- No link between Khuzaima Qutbuddin and the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra
The Intricacies of Succession: Two Claimants Emerge for Dawoodi Bohra Leadership
Official Khuzaima Qutbuddin web site — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ftutocdg ( talk • contribs) 15:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
I removed all reference which can not be accepted in an encyclopedia like gossips from public forum, yahoo group and other doubtful reference listed here :
Dear Ftutocdg please dont vandalise the article again and again using different pretext everytime. Now the article is not AFD anymore and i have discussed every aspect of the article in detail at the AFD and also here on talk page still if you have any doubts please use the talk page i am still ready to discuss with you and explain any detail that you may need. But i request you to stop your destructive editing, deletion vandalisation of the article just to prove your point of view. What is worrying you so much? Even Khuzaima Qutbuddin and his family doesnt have any issues with the article. Trust me i have not mentioned anything that i shouldnt have or would prove defamatory to Khuzaima Qutbuddin but the citation you are asking for would definitely defamation of Khuzaima Qutbuddin then he will be definitely be very angry with you. Just because of citations requested by you and displayed in this article he will lose his claim to succession issue. Is it what you really want. Do you really want me to put up a citation to defame Khuzaima Qutbuddin. I dont think Wikipedia would allow me to do so. But i will help you out. I will put all the citation in a blog page and send a link to you for your satisfaction. But i cannot assure you that other people will not see it. If you want me to do this please revert here on talk page. Araz5152 ( talk) 16:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I was asked to comment of the tagging.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests/Third_Opinion
Firstly you put the article for deletion, do everything you can to get the article deleted. You vandalise the article. You take the help of your friendly editors to vandalise the articles, put false templets and tags. Coordinate efforts to vandalise the article. Then make false arguments connecting the article with all kinds of succession issues in your pov, while at the same time you are vandalising different articles that form the part of the seccession issue you are refering to. Then finally when all your plans failed to get the article deleted at AFD, you again vandalised the article, Ftutocdg, you along with your friend summichum. After your vandalisation was reverted first you put a number of templets against the article which were reversed by DGG stating that most of the templets were wrongly applied. Then your friend applied the same templets and added more. You did not let me revert this false and wrong act. Now after doing all this you want to take third opinion? Any opinion is taken for creating an understanding. What we have here is your pure hatred against the article due to some pov of yours regarding Khuzaima Qutbuddin.
If it had been the litrature of the article that is being opined for then we can come to a decision. You are asking to evaluate the hatred you have for this article and your pov regarding ths article. Trust me only you can do it. I hope you realise this is just an article and not a battlefield to prove your pov. Araz5152 ( talk) 06:05, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I'm Anup and I've planned to make a large-scale clean-up removing wp:unreliable sources, unsourced contents, {{ citation needed}} templates and re-writing lines/sections found wp:original research once the subject survives AfD. If anyone has some comment, it'd be helpful. Anupmehra - Let's talk! 20:14, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
hi Anup, thank you for atleast giving a consideration to the article. After the severe tagging by summichum and putting the article for deletion again by him in colaboration with Ftutocdg had created a negative feeling in my mind which i expressed in the first reply by me on AFD page. There has been absolutely nobody to stand by the article. I have given a number of references regarding the content of the article. And there are more content and references which if i give would definitely prove the authenticity of the article but would defame Khuzaima Qutbuddin, and i really dont know why Ftutocdg regularly asks me to give those defaming references which will not fit the criteria of Wikipedia. You guide me on this as to how i can put up such defaming references with the permission of Wikipedia just as references. If you have any queries you can write here or on talk page. I have answered all queries of Ftutocdg on talk pages and also on last AFD. I am taking the name of Ftutocdg because he is the only person who has a problem with the article and he had called summichum to join him. I hope you understand my concern. I have just finished a complete make over of the article with reference to heavy tagging and for neutrality. I request you to go through the article and remove those tags that are not applicable. Thank you. Araz5152 ( talk) 13:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Answer to Ftutocdg's claims above: There is no interpretations or gossip or false allegation. All these points have been already cleared in this talk page above, in the last AFD and in current AFD.
Khuzaima officially claimed to Qutbi Bohra in the article of Hindustan Times on 15 April 2013 and again as mentioned in this article at the time of succession in Indian Express on 6 February 2014.
Just see the article of April 2013, it refers to a person, Hasan, name changed, who is talking with his family for six months regarding converting to Qutbi Bohra sect, no person would take such a major decision of his life based on a rumor, further more it is mentioned that other than his family 15 other families have decided to follow Qutbi Bohra sect. That would amount to 64 people deciding to follow Qutbi Bohra just based on a rumor? No the word rumor is added to undermine the truth. This article was published by reputed newspaper on the front page, newspaper will not print rumors on first page and the article is not a rumor.
It can be seen in the Azad 54 issue where Qutbi Bohra and Khuzaima Qutbuddin is clearly mentioned and the number of people deciding to join the sect is put at 640.
In the same article Saifuddin Insaf claims, "While the mazoon (Khuzaima Qutbuddin) has declared on record that he is the Syedna's successor. There is no clarity as to how much support he has." Now where is this 'on record' that Saifuddin Insaf is mentioning about. It is this article, in which Khuzima Qutbuddin has provided the declaration.
Now to answer the connection. This person Saifuddin Insaf, is a Progressive Dawoodi Bohra and is the executive secretary of Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra, an organisation formed by Asghar Ali Engineer. Asghar Ali Engineer is also the founder and leader of Progressive Dawoodi Bohra sect. The autbority with which Saifuddin Insaf asserts that - Khuzaima Qutbuddin has declared himself successor- shows the close relation between Qutbi Bohra, Progressive Dawoodi Bohra and Asgher Ali Engineer.
The aggressivity of Khuzaima Qutbuddin towards Syedna Muhammad Burhanuddin can be seen from the number of times raza (permission) had been blocked on Khuzaima Qutbuddin for different acts and omissions by Khuzaima Qutbuddin. Mentioning the acts will be amount to defamation of Khuzaima Qutbuddin but since Ftutocdg insists so much and since this is talk page let me mention two incidents;
Performing a get together without raza (permission) when Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin is nearby admist a function. For this Khuzaima Qutbuddin was reprimanded.
Khuzaima Qutbuddin's aide declared Khuzaima Qutbuddin as successor of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin in a get together, it evoked a very angry response from the members of Dawoodi Bohra sect and also angered Syedna Muhammed Burhanuddin, who not only reprmanded Khuzaima Qutbuddin's aide but took back all his titles and then reprimanded Khuzaima Qutbuddin by canceling Khuzaima Qutbuddin's raza. Khuzaima Qutbuddin as he claims today never kept quiet of his intentions of becoming the successor, but planned ways to bring his intentions into the open.
There were many such incidents of aggressivity towards Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin but cant be mentioned due to defamatory nature.
The sequence of events for formation begin from the wrongful act of Khuzaima Qutbuddin in Africa in 2003 because of which not only his raza was cancelled but it also ended any claims he might have of becoming a successor. The act cannot be mentioned due to defamatory reasons. This is what led Khuzaima Qutbuddin to form Qutbi Bohra sect in 2004 and taking the help of Asghar Ali Engineer, who in turn gathers all reformist in a conference in 2004 (ref given in article) to get support for Qutbi Bohra sect.
The progressive theology is clearly mentioned in all article especially verbally by Khuzaima Qutbuddin's son, the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra members, Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra members in newspaper articles related to succession issue. Even the ex-Chief Justice of India, who is the member of Progressive Dawoodi Bohra sect claimed Khuzaima Qutbuddin's support.
In the last two para the 'He' refers to Asghar Ali Engineer. He has written 70 books and a 1000 articles. One of his article is given, one can see the amount of hard feelings he has towards Dawoodi Bohrs sect. He organised verbal attacks through his gatherings, meetings etc excerpts can be seen in Azad and his articles. Tried to corrupt minds of people of Dawoodi Bohra sect by publishing false information in newspapers making false claims like the one in The Times of India, mentioned in Azad 2005 issue. Filed cases, in 2004 itself Asghar Ali Engineer filed 3 cases against Dawoodi Bohra community under the banner of Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra. He has also filed many cases under different names. Cases can be seen in different sites of record of court cases. Assrmbled like minded people under the banner of Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra and other conferences and meetings held in various countries and also different states of India.
The last para answer is yes, the formation of Qutbi Bohra and its leadership by Khuzaima Qutbuddin bought great sorrow in the heart of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin leading to his untimely death because there is a video and also reports in which Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin is telling a Hindu Scribe to come and meet him on his 105th birthday but he died even before his 103 birthday because of Khuzaima Qutbuddin. Now as asked by Ftutocdg he was kiled by Khuzaima Qutbuddin? Definitely by severe mental torture. And black magic as suggested by Ftutocdg, i don't know if it can be ruled out seeing the reputation of Khuzaima Qutbuddin.
Most of the points in this answer to Ftutocdg's questions lead to clear defamation of Khuzaima Qutbuddim and hence not mentioned in the article and mentioned here for information only. Araz5152 ( talk) 23:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
There has been heavy editing and deletion of references on the article. An article referenced in another newspaper would not be the original article as it will have different compiler and it will be in a different newspaper with different audience. Please use talk pages to discuss the same. Araz5152 ( talk) 23:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Extended info
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The following is a closed discussion. Please do not modify it. |
An editor Sam sailor has been continously deleting and modifying references of the article just like a child playing with a toy. Just see the amount of manupulations he has done and after deleting 12 references till now, he is still continuing he claims that i am doing edit war. He is the one vandalising the references and also voted for the articles removal, clearly showing his intentions regarding the article. I request the administors to take his vandalism seriously as he is using a loophole in the system by making small vandalising edits and also modifying such that if reverted the will accuse the reverting editor instead of the vandaliser like Sam sailor. Please do the needful, request to all editors. Araz5152 ( talk) 06:01, 13 March 2014 (UTC) another editor is systematically deleting content. I request administrators to look into the matter. There is a systematic effort put by some editors to remove the article from Wikipedia. I request administrators to please help save this article from planned vandalisation. Araz5152 ( talk) 06:41, 13 March 2014 (UTC) What an irony? The very policies that are used to protect articles on Wikipedia are been exploited by some editors and nobody at Wikipedia can do anything. Nobody has any rights to stop editors who go on a rampage over an article just because of some pov of theirs, using the very policies of Wikipedia used to protect articles. I guess there is no system of checking the edits of such editors against vandalisation such that they can blatantly claim that whatever you report to authorities nobody is going to listen. This is not according to Wikipedia standards and also not healthy with respect to protection of articles on Wikipedia.
Anyway still it is a huge effort by Wikipedia to maintain such a huge collection of articles, it does not matter if a few articles get deleted or vandalised or removed from Wikipedia just because some pov of some editors. I understand to gain something one has to loose something. It is perfectly alright for all administrators and other authorities not to do anything and watch an article getting ripped of part by part. After all Wikipedia is with all, by all and for all. So nobody takes any responsibility. My sympathies are with the policies of Wikipedia. Thank you. Araz5152 ( talk) 08:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
|
Hello,
I've deleted this sentence regarding the death of Mohammad Burhanuddin :
[...] The formation of Qutbi Bohra sect and its leadership by his own brother Sayadna Khuzaima Qutbuddin brought great hurt and pain in the heart of his brother Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin the then Da'i al-Mutlaq of Dawoodi Bohra sect. who fell gravely ill because of all this and eventually this led to His untimely demise. reference = timesofindia.com [...]
The reference provided did not mention it. Just a personal interpretation of User:Araz5152.
Thanks. -- Ftutocdg ( talk) 15:21, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello,
I'm about to delete all parts of the infobox that are not related to a solid reference or facts. I do not know how this infobox has been filled in since the sect doesn't officially exist.
After cleaning, only this few sections should remain :
-- Ftutocdg ( talk) 15:35, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello everybody, I'm Anup. I didn't knew "Qutbi Bohras" or even any Bohras until last AfD, I was randomly involved with. Following a long pattern of edit-warring and dispute between few editors over contents and references of the article, I've re-written the article from a new end, removed unsourced claims not in compliance with verifiability policy and some original research as per WP:No original research. If anyone have some question over the newly re-written article or deleted contents, ask me here. If you want some more contents to be added/deleted, discuss it here. However, editors are encouraged to be bold while updating encyclopedia, do not edit war in any case, make no personal attacks, assume good faith and help building encyclopedia. Thank you and happy editing all. Anupmehra - Let's talk! 03:17, 22 March 2014 (UTC) Wait at least 24hrs before assuming self-consensus. Anupmehra - Let's talk! 03:20, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I don't really understand this passage which is quite confusing :
Qutbi Bohra is an encompassing of progressive reformation against faith and practice of Dawoodi Bohra originated with doctrines, religious and political causes, which insists on to reach out and offer help in form of money and housing to all Momin who admires Qutbi Bohra faith. It is in direct conflict with the theory of Fatemi Dawaat which only takes but does not give
Fatemi Dawat is the name of the theological system inherited from the Fatimid Caliphate. Nizari and Bohra (Dawoodi and all sub-sects) are following its basics principles. Never in Fatimid history it was said to only take but not give.
As far as I have read this page ( http://fatemidawat.com/philosophy-vision/) on Qutbuddin's web site, he seems to prone a reformation over the financial issue but not against faith nor religious practice of the Dawoodi Bohra (a fortiori Fatemi Dawat). Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:41, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Further
Ftutocdg did not say,
here, that he was a follower of
Mufaddal Saifuddin, he alleged that
Md iet is. Best,
Sam Sailor
Sing
11:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Dear Anupmehra, Sam Sailor is right. I'm 'NOT 'Mufaddal Saifuddin's follower (neither Khuzaima Qutbuddin's in fact). Seems you missed my whole action here in Wikipedia : I'm just trying to keep NPOV on Dawoodi Bohra related articles, especially since the sucession war broke out in january. I knew some hard followers of Mufaddal Saifuddin will try to put their biaised POV on those articles. You can review, if you want proof, all my edits on different Bohra articles.
Further, I don't understand why you are questioning my positions. it's none of your business. I wrote to Md iet and other Mufaddal Saifuddin's followers to become aware of the need to do something against the fake/hoax Qutbi Article written by Araz5152.
There is a misunderstand about the passage I underlined "only takes but not give". I thought there was a confusion between Fatemi Dawat (the theological system of Bohras whose both Qutbi or Mufaddali are claiming to be keepers) and the name of the web site of Khuzaima Qutbuddin. I didn't expect that Sam Sailor will delete it.
I just wanted a clarification about the passage. Can you please explain us what are you trying to say with it? What is Fatemi Dawat for you? And whre have you read this statement to "only take but not give" ? Best regards, Ftutocdg ( talk) 20:35, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
This article seems to be yet another place where the 53rd Syedna succession controversy (Dawoodi Bohra) is being fought out by proxy, with the exact same text that is being posted to various other related articles. I've tagged the article for NPOV checking and being confusing; perhaps it should just be redirected to the main controversy article. QVVERTYVS ( hm?) 12:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
![]() | The contents of the Qutbi Bohra page were merged into 53rd Syedna succession controversy (Dawoodi Bohra) on 26 November 2014. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Qutbi Bohra redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
This page is misleading as there is nothing like Qutbi Bohra . This name is used to defame a split of group. The links given have no evidence . Most of the links are forum discussion hence delete the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.21.126.78 ( talk) 08:21, February 4, 2014
Please refer to the 'discussion of above points' tab to get the complete picture. The below mentioned discussion is the continuation of the above points. Read them together to get a complete and true picture. Again i would like to reiterate that Qutbi Bohra is a sect formed by Khuzaima Qutbuddin and i have provided the above mentioned references for the same. All arguments regarding non exsistance and repeated vandalisaton of the article suggests that efforts are being put in to hide it. Otherwise why would anyone even try to vandalise an article so many times risking being blocked. I would request that this article be looked at in an informative point of view and not make it a war zone of any person's perspective. Nobody can change what has been done in the past. Closing one's eyes to the truth or claiming falsely that an event that has taken place in the past has not taken place for whatever reasons, maybe for some personal gain, will not change the past. Just as Qutbi Bohra was mentioned in the newspapers and prominent websites and newsletter, every action or act done leaves some or the other kind of marks behind. Claiming ignorance to all these evidence and only mentioning discussion forums is like closing one's eyes to the facts, to the truth. Furthermore claiming Qutbi Bohra to be related to succession issue is another story made up to cover facts. Qutbi Bohra was born well before the succession issue even started as can be seen from newspsper references. And Qutbi Bohra's exsistance has remained since then can be seen from its reference in the current newspaper articles. Again the false claim that Progressive Dawoodi Bohra is not connected to Qutbi Bohra can be clearly seen by the support given by the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra members or its factions to Khuzaima Qutbuddin in various current articles of succession issue. Why would members of the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra sect support a person who is claiming to be the successor of Dawoodi Bohra sect, from which Progressive Dawoodi Bohra had seperated from in 1977? All these point to an effort to hide the truth and this article has become a place to show it. By vandalising it, nominating it for deletion, making false claims against it, putting up a link on the same discussion forum, whose link is given by Ftutocdg under 'Relist', to support this article for deletion and what not must have been done. I don't know the intracities of Wikipedia, yet as i am very new here. I like to write articles on various topics. I love it here in Wikipedia. I have updated some articles to the best of my knowledge about them. Coming back to Qutbi Bohra article i would request the editors, administrators to guide me as to how to save this article. Thank you. Araz5152 ( talk) 22:49, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
you get your own anwser... Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Example quoted from your article : "The then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin founded the Qutbi Bohra sect in 2004 in Udaipur starting a new progressive movement, which was the materialisation of a thought process that had started many years back"
Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Example quoted from your article : " ... Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin bagan to aggressively oppose the policies of His Holiness ... "
Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Example quoted from your article : "Finally the then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin was designated by majority as the leader of Qutbi Bohra sub sect ..." Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
example 1 "but the then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin bagan to aggressively oppose the policies of His Holiness Dr. Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (RA)"
example 2 "The then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin used the money and power of position given to him by the Dawoodi Bohra sect to further the growth of Qutbi sect" Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
so this PDF is your only proof? Not a reliable source, sorry. Like your other references. Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
We are on Wikipedia: it is an encyclopedia. Not a vulgar tabloid. Therefore contribute and write articles with factual references. Thank you. Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Qutbi Bohra is a totally seperately formed sect and it has been inviting members of Progressive Dawoodi Bohra members to join them, so merging these two articles would present a totally wrong picture. These two sects share only ideology but PDB was led by Asghar Ali Engineer, now his son or whoever is nominated. While Qutbi Bohra is formed and lead by the then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin. And it is not related to the succession issue at all, because in the succession issue the then Syedi Khuzaima Qutbuddin has claimed leadership of Dawoodi Bohra sect. But he is already the undisputed leader of this Qutbi Bohra sub sect. And it is quite clearly not concerned with the running of this sect that has already being formed. Furthermore some more text has been deleted, it changes the meaning and history of the formation of the sect. I hereby seek protection against such vandalism and put in a request to edit protect this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Araz5152 ( talk • contribs) 17:21, February 5, 2014
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) -- 59.160.12.114 ( talk) 11:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)The links are not verified links all are just forum links
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --
all that is written is true — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
117.198.198.19 (
talk) 11:41, February 4, 2014
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) -- 65.255.37.220 ( talk) 12:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
From what I can see, this appears to be the same movement as Progressive Dawoodi Bohra. If that's the case, the content and sources here should probably be merged to that page. I'm not an expert on Islamic sects, however, so would appreciate clarification from someone with more knowledge of the area before proposing a merge. Yunshui 雲 水 15:08, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Qutbi_Bohra
- No official statement of the existence of such a sect
- false allegations
- defamatory article
- Imagination of the author
- No neutrality
- No link between Khuzaima Qutbuddin and the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra
The Intricacies of Succession: Two Claimants Emerge for Dawoodi Bohra Leadership
Official Khuzaima Qutbuddin web site — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ftutocdg ( talk • contribs) 15:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
I removed all reference which can not be accepted in an encyclopedia like gossips from public forum, yahoo group and other doubtful reference listed here :
Dear Ftutocdg please dont vandalise the article again and again using different pretext everytime. Now the article is not AFD anymore and i have discussed every aspect of the article in detail at the AFD and also here on talk page still if you have any doubts please use the talk page i am still ready to discuss with you and explain any detail that you may need. But i request you to stop your destructive editing, deletion vandalisation of the article just to prove your point of view. What is worrying you so much? Even Khuzaima Qutbuddin and his family doesnt have any issues with the article. Trust me i have not mentioned anything that i shouldnt have or would prove defamatory to Khuzaima Qutbuddin but the citation you are asking for would definitely defamation of Khuzaima Qutbuddin then he will be definitely be very angry with you. Just because of citations requested by you and displayed in this article he will lose his claim to succession issue. Is it what you really want. Do you really want me to put up a citation to defame Khuzaima Qutbuddin. I dont think Wikipedia would allow me to do so. But i will help you out. I will put all the citation in a blog page and send a link to you for your satisfaction. But i cannot assure you that other people will not see it. If you want me to do this please revert here on talk page. Araz5152 ( talk) 16:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I was asked to comment of the tagging.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests/Third_Opinion
Firstly you put the article for deletion, do everything you can to get the article deleted. You vandalise the article. You take the help of your friendly editors to vandalise the articles, put false templets and tags. Coordinate efforts to vandalise the article. Then make false arguments connecting the article with all kinds of succession issues in your pov, while at the same time you are vandalising different articles that form the part of the seccession issue you are refering to. Then finally when all your plans failed to get the article deleted at AFD, you again vandalised the article, Ftutocdg, you along with your friend summichum. After your vandalisation was reverted first you put a number of templets against the article which were reversed by DGG stating that most of the templets were wrongly applied. Then your friend applied the same templets and added more. You did not let me revert this false and wrong act. Now after doing all this you want to take third opinion? Any opinion is taken for creating an understanding. What we have here is your pure hatred against the article due to some pov of yours regarding Khuzaima Qutbuddin.
If it had been the litrature of the article that is being opined for then we can come to a decision. You are asking to evaluate the hatred you have for this article and your pov regarding ths article. Trust me only you can do it. I hope you realise this is just an article and not a battlefield to prove your pov. Araz5152 ( talk) 06:05, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I'm Anup and I've planned to make a large-scale clean-up removing wp:unreliable sources, unsourced contents, {{ citation needed}} templates and re-writing lines/sections found wp:original research once the subject survives AfD. If anyone has some comment, it'd be helpful. Anupmehra - Let's talk! 20:14, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
hi Anup, thank you for atleast giving a consideration to the article. After the severe tagging by summichum and putting the article for deletion again by him in colaboration with Ftutocdg had created a negative feeling in my mind which i expressed in the first reply by me on AFD page. There has been absolutely nobody to stand by the article. I have given a number of references regarding the content of the article. And there are more content and references which if i give would definitely prove the authenticity of the article but would defame Khuzaima Qutbuddin, and i really dont know why Ftutocdg regularly asks me to give those defaming references which will not fit the criteria of Wikipedia. You guide me on this as to how i can put up such defaming references with the permission of Wikipedia just as references. If you have any queries you can write here or on talk page. I have answered all queries of Ftutocdg on talk pages and also on last AFD. I am taking the name of Ftutocdg because he is the only person who has a problem with the article and he had called summichum to join him. I hope you understand my concern. I have just finished a complete make over of the article with reference to heavy tagging and for neutrality. I request you to go through the article and remove those tags that are not applicable. Thank you. Araz5152 ( talk) 13:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Answer to Ftutocdg's claims above: There is no interpretations or gossip or false allegation. All these points have been already cleared in this talk page above, in the last AFD and in current AFD.
Khuzaima officially claimed to Qutbi Bohra in the article of Hindustan Times on 15 April 2013 and again as mentioned in this article at the time of succession in Indian Express on 6 February 2014.
Just see the article of April 2013, it refers to a person, Hasan, name changed, who is talking with his family for six months regarding converting to Qutbi Bohra sect, no person would take such a major decision of his life based on a rumor, further more it is mentioned that other than his family 15 other families have decided to follow Qutbi Bohra sect. That would amount to 64 people deciding to follow Qutbi Bohra just based on a rumor? No the word rumor is added to undermine the truth. This article was published by reputed newspaper on the front page, newspaper will not print rumors on first page and the article is not a rumor.
It can be seen in the Azad 54 issue where Qutbi Bohra and Khuzaima Qutbuddin is clearly mentioned and the number of people deciding to join the sect is put at 640.
In the same article Saifuddin Insaf claims, "While the mazoon (Khuzaima Qutbuddin) has declared on record that he is the Syedna's successor. There is no clarity as to how much support he has." Now where is this 'on record' that Saifuddin Insaf is mentioning about. It is this article, in which Khuzima Qutbuddin has provided the declaration.
Now to answer the connection. This person Saifuddin Insaf, is a Progressive Dawoodi Bohra and is the executive secretary of Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra, an organisation formed by Asghar Ali Engineer. Asghar Ali Engineer is also the founder and leader of Progressive Dawoodi Bohra sect. The autbority with which Saifuddin Insaf asserts that - Khuzaima Qutbuddin has declared himself successor- shows the close relation between Qutbi Bohra, Progressive Dawoodi Bohra and Asgher Ali Engineer.
The aggressivity of Khuzaima Qutbuddin towards Syedna Muhammad Burhanuddin can be seen from the number of times raza (permission) had been blocked on Khuzaima Qutbuddin for different acts and omissions by Khuzaima Qutbuddin. Mentioning the acts will be amount to defamation of Khuzaima Qutbuddin but since Ftutocdg insists so much and since this is talk page let me mention two incidents;
Performing a get together without raza (permission) when Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin is nearby admist a function. For this Khuzaima Qutbuddin was reprimanded.
Khuzaima Qutbuddin's aide declared Khuzaima Qutbuddin as successor of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin in a get together, it evoked a very angry response from the members of Dawoodi Bohra sect and also angered Syedna Muhammed Burhanuddin, who not only reprmanded Khuzaima Qutbuddin's aide but took back all his titles and then reprimanded Khuzaima Qutbuddin by canceling Khuzaima Qutbuddin's raza. Khuzaima Qutbuddin as he claims today never kept quiet of his intentions of becoming the successor, but planned ways to bring his intentions into the open.
There were many such incidents of aggressivity towards Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin but cant be mentioned due to defamatory nature.
The sequence of events for formation begin from the wrongful act of Khuzaima Qutbuddin in Africa in 2003 because of which not only his raza was cancelled but it also ended any claims he might have of becoming a successor. The act cannot be mentioned due to defamatory reasons. This is what led Khuzaima Qutbuddin to form Qutbi Bohra sect in 2004 and taking the help of Asghar Ali Engineer, who in turn gathers all reformist in a conference in 2004 (ref given in article) to get support for Qutbi Bohra sect.
The progressive theology is clearly mentioned in all article especially verbally by Khuzaima Qutbuddin's son, the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra members, Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra members in newspaper articles related to succession issue. Even the ex-Chief Justice of India, who is the member of Progressive Dawoodi Bohra sect claimed Khuzaima Qutbuddin's support.
In the last two para the 'He' refers to Asghar Ali Engineer. He has written 70 books and a 1000 articles. One of his article is given, one can see the amount of hard feelings he has towards Dawoodi Bohrs sect. He organised verbal attacks through his gatherings, meetings etc excerpts can be seen in Azad and his articles. Tried to corrupt minds of people of Dawoodi Bohra sect by publishing false information in newspapers making false claims like the one in The Times of India, mentioned in Azad 2005 issue. Filed cases, in 2004 itself Asghar Ali Engineer filed 3 cases against Dawoodi Bohra community under the banner of Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra. He has also filed many cases under different names. Cases can be seen in different sites of record of court cases. Assrmbled like minded people under the banner of Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra and other conferences and meetings held in various countries and also different states of India.
The last para answer is yes, the formation of Qutbi Bohra and its leadership by Khuzaima Qutbuddin bought great sorrow in the heart of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin leading to his untimely death because there is a video and also reports in which Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin is telling a Hindu Scribe to come and meet him on his 105th birthday but he died even before his 103 birthday because of Khuzaima Qutbuddin. Now as asked by Ftutocdg he was kiled by Khuzaima Qutbuddin? Definitely by severe mental torture. And black magic as suggested by Ftutocdg, i don't know if it can be ruled out seeing the reputation of Khuzaima Qutbuddin.
Most of the points in this answer to Ftutocdg's questions lead to clear defamation of Khuzaima Qutbuddim and hence not mentioned in the article and mentioned here for information only. Araz5152 ( talk) 23:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
There has been heavy editing and deletion of references on the article. An article referenced in another newspaper would not be the original article as it will have different compiler and it will be in a different newspaper with different audience. Please use talk pages to discuss the same. Araz5152 ( talk) 23:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Extended info
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The following is a closed discussion. Please do not modify it. |
An editor Sam sailor has been continously deleting and modifying references of the article just like a child playing with a toy. Just see the amount of manupulations he has done and after deleting 12 references till now, he is still continuing he claims that i am doing edit war. He is the one vandalising the references and also voted for the articles removal, clearly showing his intentions regarding the article. I request the administors to take his vandalism seriously as he is using a loophole in the system by making small vandalising edits and also modifying such that if reverted the will accuse the reverting editor instead of the vandaliser like Sam sailor. Please do the needful, request to all editors. Araz5152 ( talk) 06:01, 13 March 2014 (UTC) another editor is systematically deleting content. I request administrators to look into the matter. There is a systematic effort put by some editors to remove the article from Wikipedia. I request administrators to please help save this article from planned vandalisation. Araz5152 ( talk) 06:41, 13 March 2014 (UTC) What an irony? The very policies that are used to protect articles on Wikipedia are been exploited by some editors and nobody at Wikipedia can do anything. Nobody has any rights to stop editors who go on a rampage over an article just because of some pov of theirs, using the very policies of Wikipedia used to protect articles. I guess there is no system of checking the edits of such editors against vandalisation such that they can blatantly claim that whatever you report to authorities nobody is going to listen. This is not according to Wikipedia standards and also not healthy with respect to protection of articles on Wikipedia.
Anyway still it is a huge effort by Wikipedia to maintain such a huge collection of articles, it does not matter if a few articles get deleted or vandalised or removed from Wikipedia just because some pov of some editors. I understand to gain something one has to loose something. It is perfectly alright for all administrators and other authorities not to do anything and watch an article getting ripped of part by part. After all Wikipedia is with all, by all and for all. So nobody takes any responsibility. My sympathies are with the policies of Wikipedia. Thank you. Araz5152 ( talk) 08:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
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Hello,
I've deleted this sentence regarding the death of Mohammad Burhanuddin :
[...] The formation of Qutbi Bohra sect and its leadership by his own brother Sayadna Khuzaima Qutbuddin brought great hurt and pain in the heart of his brother Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin the then Da'i al-Mutlaq of Dawoodi Bohra sect. who fell gravely ill because of all this and eventually this led to His untimely demise. reference = timesofindia.com [...]
The reference provided did not mention it. Just a personal interpretation of User:Araz5152.
Thanks. -- Ftutocdg ( talk) 15:21, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello,
I'm about to delete all parts of the infobox that are not related to a solid reference or facts. I do not know how this infobox has been filled in since the sect doesn't officially exist.
After cleaning, only this few sections should remain :
-- Ftutocdg ( talk) 15:35, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello everybody, I'm Anup. I didn't knew "Qutbi Bohras" or even any Bohras until last AfD, I was randomly involved with. Following a long pattern of edit-warring and dispute between few editors over contents and references of the article, I've re-written the article from a new end, removed unsourced claims not in compliance with verifiability policy and some original research as per WP:No original research. If anyone have some question over the newly re-written article or deleted contents, ask me here. If you want some more contents to be added/deleted, discuss it here. However, editors are encouraged to be bold while updating encyclopedia, do not edit war in any case, make no personal attacks, assume good faith and help building encyclopedia. Thank you and happy editing all. Anupmehra - Let's talk! 03:17, 22 March 2014 (UTC) Wait at least 24hrs before assuming self-consensus. Anupmehra - Let's talk! 03:20, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I don't really understand this passage which is quite confusing :
Qutbi Bohra is an encompassing of progressive reformation against faith and practice of Dawoodi Bohra originated with doctrines, religious and political causes, which insists on to reach out and offer help in form of money and housing to all Momin who admires Qutbi Bohra faith. It is in direct conflict with the theory of Fatemi Dawaat which only takes but does not give
Fatemi Dawat is the name of the theological system inherited from the Fatimid Caliphate. Nizari and Bohra (Dawoodi and all sub-sects) are following its basics principles. Never in Fatimid history it was said to only take but not give.
As far as I have read this page ( http://fatemidawat.com/philosophy-vision/) on Qutbuddin's web site, he seems to prone a reformation over the financial issue but not against faith nor religious practice of the Dawoodi Bohra (a fortiori Fatemi Dawat). Ftutocdg ( talk) 22:41, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Further
Ftutocdg did not say,
here, that he was a follower of
Mufaddal Saifuddin, he alleged that
Md iet is. Best,
Sam Sailor
Sing
11:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Dear Anupmehra, Sam Sailor is right. I'm 'NOT 'Mufaddal Saifuddin's follower (neither Khuzaima Qutbuddin's in fact). Seems you missed my whole action here in Wikipedia : I'm just trying to keep NPOV on Dawoodi Bohra related articles, especially since the sucession war broke out in january. I knew some hard followers of Mufaddal Saifuddin will try to put their biaised POV on those articles. You can review, if you want proof, all my edits on different Bohra articles.
Further, I don't understand why you are questioning my positions. it's none of your business. I wrote to Md iet and other Mufaddal Saifuddin's followers to become aware of the need to do something against the fake/hoax Qutbi Article written by Araz5152.
There is a misunderstand about the passage I underlined "only takes but not give". I thought there was a confusion between Fatemi Dawat (the theological system of Bohras whose both Qutbi or Mufaddali are claiming to be keepers) and the name of the web site of Khuzaima Qutbuddin. I didn't expect that Sam Sailor will delete it.
I just wanted a clarification about the passage. Can you please explain us what are you trying to say with it? What is Fatemi Dawat for you? And whre have you read this statement to "only take but not give" ? Best regards, Ftutocdg ( talk) 20:35, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
This article seems to be yet another place where the 53rd Syedna succession controversy (Dawoodi Bohra) is being fought out by proxy, with the exact same text that is being posted to various other related articles. I've tagged the article for NPOV checking and being confusing; perhaps it should just be redirected to the main controversy article. QVVERTYVS ( hm?) 12:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)