Also needs non-American/Western perception/reception, in particular that in Japan as it's a Japanese game. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 22:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Even just looking at America in May 2019 (allowing ourselves to be USA-centric), there are no established standards and thresholds of "sexualization" to see if something is "undersexualized", "just-fine sexualized", or "oversexualized". This does exist within cultures, religions, or government regulations (sometimes connected with religions, as with the Islamic theocracies), but Wikipedia does not follow any. In this case, it's just personal opinions of some people in games journalism and academia. There are now Sony company worldwide standards (in accordance to the Californian "progressive" culture) but even they didn't censor Quiet with their infamous god rays. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 17:40, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I think the problem is that its called "Polarized Reception". what is it polarizing to if there's no opposing thoughts. that word choice in my opinion is what may be causing the issue. There are some opinions that defend the design choice and don't consider her over-sexualized in the reception section. Highlighting both in the lead will put this issue to rest. Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 07:25, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
I feel most of what needs to be said has been said here - any chance we can get a RfC/!vote on this? Satellizer el Bridget (Talk) 06:25, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
At the very least, the Western critics’ reception of the character belongs in the reception section and not repeated in the beginning portion that discusses an over view of the character.
I realize that the ardent political opinions of those who keep undoing my removal of the repetitive and unrelated material from the beginning section are important to fellow editors, but that alone does not guarantee they are in the right both in regards to concise and related information populating the introductory section. SEALghostsix ( talk) 06:18, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
The lead summarizes the article, that includes the opinions of established critics mentioned in the reception section. On a different note, the Conception and design section is not summarized at all in the lead, so I added a template for that.-- Megaman en m ( talk) 08:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Doesn't it seem a little awkward how the article has multiple images, but none of them accurately portrays Quiet's in-game render? I think it's important that we have an image that accurately portrays Quiet in the Metal Gear video games. I'm positive that it would meet the NFCC if it was replaced with the concept art. Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 12:26, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
The infobox pic is in fact Shinkawa's concept art. But it's only of many, here being some: [1] & [2] I'm partial to one from the first collection: [3] SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 11:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
All MG character articles use Shinkawa's artworks. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 12:52, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
By "render" do you mean in-engine? Because there's a screenshot of Quiet here, as "oversexualized" (despite her being clothed there and not naked like in some Shinkawa pictures). SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:45, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
In that case you won't just have any idea what for example The Boss (Metal Gear) really looked like at all because it looks there like some demon creature and not [4]. Her article sucks, btw, too, but rather for the reason nobody has rally touched it since I've first written wrote it as a stub, concentrating on reception aspects because of "notability", many years ago.
Quiet here looks more like precedessor (not mentioned in Quiet's article somehow) Sniper Wolf, which I've kept updating, and where you can see how she looks like just fine overall, but my personal choice of Shinkawa-pic for her was rather [5]] (with the "over"sexualized one of his for her being the other one at [6]). But even that the green hair is very misleading and you need to actually read the article for that (where I notrd it), but again: my picture was black and white, has been changed when I've been "not banned" (also Quiet's wasn't even linked from there as she didn't have an article at the time, but Quiet can be even dressed as SW in MGSV).
Also, as noted here, "Females like to dress up as Sniper Wolf and Quiet" precisely as intended as Kojima. [7] Which, repeating myself, was actually what Quiet was made for (and for figures), according to Kojima himself, to the point that even her reveal was supposed to help the cosplayers (also not mentioned in the article, but to quote from the reveal: "The initial target is to make u want to do cosplay or its figurine to sell well" [8] followed by "Dear Cosplayer friends, something like this for example." and the pic of her butt [9]). But there's no "cosplay" word anywhere in this article at all. I'll add a sample picture of these cosplayers right here.
stick to content
|
---|
I suppose the reason why this is not mentioned it's because it was written as a not-even-veiled (very one sided) attack article on the game, Kojima himself (with some industry-nobody somehow described here as "Halo designer" actually quoted to call him a "man baby"), and nebulous "oversexualition of women in video games". Can I rewrite it to be something at least resembling of a proper and factual, and at least relying basic facts, or will you keep playing that reverting game with me again to get me blocked? |
And yes, most of these other MGS-girl articles also really need work, even if for different reason. (Only Sniper Wolf's is fine - not perfect or even great, but okay.) SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 08:27, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
off-topic
|
---|
|
- Bryn (talk) (contributions) 09:44, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
The image of Quiet is simply Wikipedia-standard, so you will have to change all of them. If you didn't really understand yet.
He's not "Halo designer", he's just one of the a great multitude people who have worked on Halo games (in which Cortana actually dresses less than Quiet, as in nothing because she's "naked" all the time) in minor positions as his only games to his credit at MB and who said something von twitter that just happened to align with the opinions of these "opinion pieces" writers but which otherwise only got less than 50 likes/retweets. [10] How is that any important? It's not at all. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk)
Yes, it's just en established standard for all these articles (but the pics could be better). Also, speaking of twitter, some more relevant English-language tweets from Kojima: [11] [12] [13][ [14] [15] [16]
Western mass media coverage of Quiet and cosplaying: https://www.google.com/search?q=quiet+%22metal+gear%22+cosplay&source=lnms&tbm=nws SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 11:37, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Here is an alternative image that would make sense to use: [17] [18]. Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 12:31, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Once again everyone in /info/en/?search=Category:Metal_Gear_characters has only Shinkawa concept arts (including the misleading Sniper Wolf with green hair). And I already showed you a superior one, but again: [19] I'd replace all of them with the b/w versions, in particular the especially horrid looking [20] (from [21]) with a clear version of [22]/ [23] which is very similar but has a gun instead of standing awkwardly and don't look like if she had horns. About Quiet herself - it's not in the article, too, but in the early pics she's blonde and otherwise quite different ( [24] [25]). SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 13:00, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
@ SNAAAAKE!!: Once we are done with Quiet, we can look into each character in Metal Gear and replace with a more appropriate image that represents the characters better. I dont think many people will disagree to have an image that best represents the character. Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 23:50, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
The dude just tags it in the name of Wikimedia's own Wikia (or "Fandom" as our glorious leaders have renamed it). -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 07:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
-- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 19:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Maybe later. I also added cosplay but I'm still working right now on just adding stuff still. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 19:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
There really wasn't such. One Japanese interview ( [26]) asks him about the foreign reaction to the twitter reveal, but he kinda just dodges it and they never really even talk about it. [27] talks of a "buzz" on Japanese twitter but nothing negative. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm finished for now. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
I changed "Appearances" into "and gameplay" after adding, well, gameplay (also as a playable character), but I feel something like "Story" would feel better. There are no plural appearances. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 21:58, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
And if you still think another picture is needed, maybe some sort of a gameplay screenshot for that section rather than messing with the infobox image. Also maybe the story or maybe the reception should include the mention of her brutally killing the gang of Soviet rapists in a pretty famous/iconic cutscene. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 22:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
The whole article might be checked for awkward writing such as [ https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Quiet_(Metal_Gear)&type=revision&diff=902304307&oldid=902303694&diffmode=source ]
Now that we have a full body in-game render of the character, I think we now have too many images in the article that it makes the article uncomfortable to read. The images I think we can remove are the Play Arts Kai figure and the Promotional Model. Both of those images don't convey any information. I'm considering whether we need the cutscenes image as well. Should we make a vote to which images should be kept? Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 21:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:06, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Also needs non-American/Western perception/reception, in particular that in Japan as it's a Japanese game. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 22:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Even just looking at America in May 2019 (allowing ourselves to be USA-centric), there are no established standards and thresholds of "sexualization" to see if something is "undersexualized", "just-fine sexualized", or "oversexualized". This does exist within cultures, religions, or government regulations (sometimes connected with religions, as with the Islamic theocracies), but Wikipedia does not follow any. In this case, it's just personal opinions of some people in games journalism and academia. There are now Sony company worldwide standards (in accordance to the Californian "progressive" culture) but even they didn't censor Quiet with their infamous god rays. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 17:40, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I think the problem is that its called "Polarized Reception". what is it polarizing to if there's no opposing thoughts. that word choice in my opinion is what may be causing the issue. There are some opinions that defend the design choice and don't consider her over-sexualized in the reception section. Highlighting both in the lead will put this issue to rest. Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 07:25, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
I feel most of what needs to be said has been said here - any chance we can get a RfC/!vote on this? Satellizer el Bridget (Talk) 06:25, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
At the very least, the Western critics’ reception of the character belongs in the reception section and not repeated in the beginning portion that discusses an over view of the character.
I realize that the ardent political opinions of those who keep undoing my removal of the repetitive and unrelated material from the beginning section are important to fellow editors, but that alone does not guarantee they are in the right both in regards to concise and related information populating the introductory section. SEALghostsix ( talk) 06:18, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
The lead summarizes the article, that includes the opinions of established critics mentioned in the reception section. On a different note, the Conception and design section is not summarized at all in the lead, so I added a template for that.-- Megaman en m ( talk) 08:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Doesn't it seem a little awkward how the article has multiple images, but none of them accurately portrays Quiet's in-game render? I think it's important that we have an image that accurately portrays Quiet in the Metal Gear video games. I'm positive that it would meet the NFCC if it was replaced with the concept art. Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 12:26, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
The infobox pic is in fact Shinkawa's concept art. But it's only of many, here being some: [1] & [2] I'm partial to one from the first collection: [3] SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 11:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
All MG character articles use Shinkawa's artworks. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 12:52, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
By "render" do you mean in-engine? Because there's a screenshot of Quiet here, as "oversexualized" (despite her being clothed there and not naked like in some Shinkawa pictures). SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:45, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
In that case you won't just have any idea what for example The Boss (Metal Gear) really looked like at all because it looks there like some demon creature and not [4]. Her article sucks, btw, too, but rather for the reason nobody has rally touched it since I've first written wrote it as a stub, concentrating on reception aspects because of "notability", many years ago.
Quiet here looks more like precedessor (not mentioned in Quiet's article somehow) Sniper Wolf, which I've kept updating, and where you can see how she looks like just fine overall, but my personal choice of Shinkawa-pic for her was rather [5]] (with the "over"sexualized one of his for her being the other one at [6]). But even that the green hair is very misleading and you need to actually read the article for that (where I notrd it), but again: my picture was black and white, has been changed when I've been "not banned" (also Quiet's wasn't even linked from there as she didn't have an article at the time, but Quiet can be even dressed as SW in MGSV).
Also, as noted here, "Females like to dress up as Sniper Wolf and Quiet" precisely as intended as Kojima. [7] Which, repeating myself, was actually what Quiet was made for (and for figures), according to Kojima himself, to the point that even her reveal was supposed to help the cosplayers (also not mentioned in the article, but to quote from the reveal: "The initial target is to make u want to do cosplay or its figurine to sell well" [8] followed by "Dear Cosplayer friends, something like this for example." and the pic of her butt [9]). But there's no "cosplay" word anywhere in this article at all. I'll add a sample picture of these cosplayers right here.
stick to content
|
---|
I suppose the reason why this is not mentioned it's because it was written as a not-even-veiled (very one sided) attack article on the game, Kojima himself (with some industry-nobody somehow described here as "Halo designer" actually quoted to call him a "man baby"), and nebulous "oversexualition of women in video games". Can I rewrite it to be something at least resembling of a proper and factual, and at least relying basic facts, or will you keep playing that reverting game with me again to get me blocked? |
And yes, most of these other MGS-girl articles also really need work, even if for different reason. (Only Sniper Wolf's is fine - not perfect or even great, but okay.) SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 08:27, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
off-topic
|
---|
|
- Bryn (talk) (contributions) 09:44, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
The image of Quiet is simply Wikipedia-standard, so you will have to change all of them. If you didn't really understand yet.
He's not "Halo designer", he's just one of the a great multitude people who have worked on Halo games (in which Cortana actually dresses less than Quiet, as in nothing because she's "naked" all the time) in minor positions as his only games to his credit at MB and who said something von twitter that just happened to align with the opinions of these "opinion pieces" writers but which otherwise only got less than 50 likes/retweets. [10] How is that any important? It's not at all. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk)
Yes, it's just en established standard for all these articles (but the pics could be better). Also, speaking of twitter, some more relevant English-language tweets from Kojima: [11] [12] [13][ [14] [15] [16]
Western mass media coverage of Quiet and cosplaying: https://www.google.com/search?q=quiet+%22metal+gear%22+cosplay&source=lnms&tbm=nws SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 11:37, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Here is an alternative image that would make sense to use: [17] [18]. Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 12:31, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Once again everyone in /info/en/?search=Category:Metal_Gear_characters has only Shinkawa concept arts (including the misleading Sniper Wolf with green hair). And I already showed you a superior one, but again: [19] I'd replace all of them with the b/w versions, in particular the especially horrid looking [20] (from [21]) with a clear version of [22]/ [23] which is very similar but has a gun instead of standing awkwardly and don't look like if she had horns. About Quiet herself - it's not in the article, too, but in the early pics she's blonde and otherwise quite different ( [24] [25]). SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 13:00, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
@ SNAAAAKE!!: Once we are done with Quiet, we can look into each character in Metal Gear and replace with a more appropriate image that represents the characters better. I dont think many people will disagree to have an image that best represents the character. Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 23:50, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
The dude just tags it in the name of Wikimedia's own Wikia (or "Fandom" as our glorious leaders have renamed it). -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 07:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
-- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 19:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Maybe later. I also added cosplay but I'm still working right now on just adding stuff still. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 19:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
There really wasn't such. One Japanese interview ( [26]) asks him about the foreign reaction to the twitter reveal, but he kinda just dodges it and they never really even talk about it. [27] talks of a "buzz" on Japanese twitter but nothing negative. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm finished for now. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
I changed "Appearances" into "and gameplay" after adding, well, gameplay (also as a playable character), but I feel something like "Story" would feel better. There are no plural appearances. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 21:58, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
And if you still think another picture is needed, maybe some sort of a gameplay screenshot for that section rather than messing with the infobox image. Also maybe the story or maybe the reception should include the mention of her brutally killing the gang of Soviet rapists in a pretty famous/iconic cutscene. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 22:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
The whole article might be checked for awkward writing such as [ https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Quiet_(Metal_Gear)&type=revision&diff=902304307&oldid=902303694&diffmode=source ]
Now that we have a full body in-game render of the character, I think we now have too many images in the article that it makes the article uncomfortable to read. The images I think we can remove are the Play Arts Kai figure and the Promotional Model. Both of those images don't convey any information. I'm considering whether we need the cutscenes image as well. Should we make a vote to which images should be kept? Blue Pumpkin Pie ( talk) 21:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:06, 2 February 2020 (UTC)