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I believe that the french page is in much better shape... and a slow transfer and translation might be the best way to clean up this article.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouvement_souverainiste_du_Qu%C3%A9bec —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.132.75 ( talk) 06:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Firefox didn't like editing a page this big :), so I decided to create an archive. I didn't bother to search for all the currently active discussions; fell free to move current text back in here. /Archive 1 MartinToupin 14:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Wow. This article needs a lot of work. I'm an American, but I'm in my 4th year of working towards a bachelor's degree in Canadian Studies. I believe I can offer a well-educated opinion (and hopefully) I don't have much of a bias because I'm an outsider to the issue. I'd like to help clean this article up...but I don't know where to begin with my laundry list of things that need some work. I do not understand the point being made by the previous post. As someone who studies Canadian politics and Quebec seperatism, and who monitors the Canadian English Language media carefully, I would strongly disagree with the contention that the terms separatist and sovereignist are interchangeable, or that they are ever properly used as such.
Sovereignist is not the same as seperatist is not the same as Quebec nationalist (Kudos for not mixing that one up). These three terms are related as follows: ALL separatists are Quebec nationalists, but only some separatists are sovereignists. ALL sovereignists are Quebec nationalists, but only SOME sovereignists are separatists. SOME Quebec nationalists are NOT separatists, NOR sovereignists, but federalists.
The whole existence of the concepts and ideologies of Quebec Nationalism and Sovereignty / Separation stems from the fact that there are two underlying and fundamentally different interpretations of Canada. One vision, held by ALL Quebec nationalists is that Canada is a double-compact -- a country formed by two nations, the French Canadian nation and the English Canadian nation. Therefore, Quebec, as the homeland of the French Canadian people should be treated constitutionally as ONE of the TWO founding nations of Canada. On the other hand, the predominant view in English Canada, and especially in the west, is that Canada is not a union of TWO nations, but TEN co-equal provinces. Therefore, Quebec is not entitled to be treated any differently in the Canadian federation and Constitution, because it is simply ONE of TEN.
With me so far? Okay -- this central disagreement about the nature of Quebec's role in Canada is essentially the reason for the existence of Quebec nationalism and sovereignty and separatism. Quebec nationalists all feel that Canada is a union of TWO founding nations, not TEN co-equal provinces. The federalists among the Quebec nationalists feel that the way to rectify this is to change the Canadian constitution, and that Quebec's best chance for meaningful cultural survival is as a part of Canada. Sovereignists agree with the TWO nations not TEN provinces notion, but feel that that argument is largely immaterial, because Quebec's best chances for meaningful cultural survival lie outside of the Canadian federation, but disagree with separatists as to whether the best way to exit the current Canadian federation is to become completely independent from Canada, or to renegotiate Quebec's constitutional position to receive separate powers of autonomy, but still exist within some kind of a looser arrangement with Canada.
I believe that this article would benefit from an articulation of the above facts. I'd appreciate hearing from people where such a section ought to be placed, and how I can make it more clear and easy to understand. I will also annotate with specific references. Thx.
I put down that in 1995 some 86, 000 No ballots were rejected without valid reasons citing a valid source and yet that number and source were again removed. We do not need editing wars, they get in the way of the truth and mix propaganda with history! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.85.176 ( talk • contribs)
I am confused as to why Quebec separatists would insist on seeing Canada as a 2-nation federation....French Quebec and English remainder...when in fact there are other Canadian provinces that have historical French affinity. Is it a case where British ethnic cleansing efforts -- i.e. removing French populations from the territories -- was so effective that these other provinces are now seen as English? I am open to that possibility...and I am also open to the possiblity that the Quebec side sees those territories as part of the larger "French nation" which makes up the 2-nation federation. It might be helpful if someone elaborated on this point in the article. Chesspride 172.164.60.117 ( talk) 23:56, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
The article is biased in favour of separatists. To begin with, its' clear that separatists wrote it because only separatists refer to themselves as "sovereignists," which is ironically the English equivalent of that ever so hated-in-Quebec grammatical error, the anglicisme. An anglicisme consists of directly translating from English to French, with the result that the translation loses the meaning of the original, and usually sounds awkward. Thus while most separatists refer to themselves in French as "souverainistes", sovereignists is both awkward and unusual, in that separatists is the English word for people with separatist political inclinations. Furthermore, the article presents separatist views as fact, which obviously is editorializing and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.251.236 ( talk • contribs)
The phrase 'sovereigntist' has only been used in English media since after 2000 and the term 'separatist' was used exclusively in English language Canadian media prior to that. To quote recent articles from the CBC or the Globe & Mail as 'proof' to refute the prior comment is either done through ignorance or political motivations.
After reading this article, I get the impression that the writers are against separatists. Don't get me wrong, I just stumbled upon this article, and I myself do not currently have a stance on the issue :). Perhaps my lack of stance allows me to see the bias, thus I've tagged this article as in need of a POV check.
Is "étapisme" really the best French term for sovereignty-association? My French isn't as good as it could be, but "étapisme" looks like it means "stopping off half way." It doesn't seem as precise as "souveraineté-association". The Canadian Oxford Dictionary gives the etymology as "first used as the slogan of the Mouvement Souveraineté-Association, forerunners to the Parti Québécois." Indefatigable 18:50, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
As expected, there are serious inaccuracies in this page.
Étapisme, from French étape (step) means step by step. The étapiste approach has been rejected as a way to achieve sovereignty. L'étapisme could consist of holding a referendum on the repatriation of jurisdictions, one by one, until Québec is a fully sovereign State, associated with Canada or not.
Some other problems:
"PQ leader René Lévesque, who led the party from 1968 to 1985, developed the idea of sovereignty-association to reduce the fear that an independent Quebec would face tough economic times."
This is the interpretation that was given by the English-speaking commentators at the time. According to René Lévesque and the sovereignists the reasons follow from logic :
- We were (and still are) moving towards a globalised world, where States open their borders to free movements of persons, goods, capital and ideas (therefore, culture). The construction of the European union was beginning. It was in the air to have these kinds of ideas.
- The case of Danemark and Norway as a good example. Following the independence of Norway, talks began for a political association profitable to both sides.
- Quebec and Ontario's economies were heavily interdependent. This is less true since the free trade agreement with the USA.
Again, this is an encyclopedia. You cannot simply put political opinions and propaganda in here. You need to support your claims with evidence. It would be good for this page to be written by people knowledgeable of History in general, colonial history and the history of Québec.
This page should deal with what Sovereignty-Association is:
1. A political movement that lead to the creation of the PQ.
2. A concept in which sovereignty is understood to be indissociable from international cooperation.
Bashing the separatists should be done in a page dedicated to it. Mathieugp
Just curious about the recent change. Has something shifted in the general separatist position? Is independent statehood not still the goal of the separatist movement? "Greater autonomy" sounds like they want more control over trade positions or whatnot. Switching back, but please feel free to discuss. Edit -- forgot to sign -- -- 66.129.135.114 17:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
What does Quebec want? Only a small minority of sovereigntists want independence, a minority position among a minority position. But most Quebecers will say they want more "autonomy" or leeway under the Canadian federalist system. Which begs the question, what does Quebec need? Toddsschneider 18:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The greater autonomy thing is NOT sovereignty. Autonomy means that Quebec stays in Canada but having more power (Meech). Sovereignty is separating from Canada to become another country, association or not. For example, the NAFTA is a type of association between us, canada, and mexico, but it doesn't mean that they form one country.
Please stop changing the introduction. Sovereignty is NOT about having greater autonomy (which is the constitutional position of the ADQ). Sovereignty is about making Quebec a country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.94.160.210 ( talk) 18:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
People should stop reverting the edits I made about erasing the greater autonomy thing if they are not willing to come on this page and discuss it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wassup54 ( talk • contribs) 03:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
This is false, the pq had been against meech and charlottetown and their ultimate goal is sovereignty of Quebec, which means that Quebec will become an independant state. Greater autonomy is NOT sovereignty. Some sovereignist may agree with having more autonomy, but having more autonomy has nothing to do with sovereignty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wassup54 ( talk • contribs) 19:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I consider myself an autonomist in the sense that I want Quebec to have more autonomy in the canadian federation. However, that doesn't make me a sovereignist. Sovereignists are by definition separatists that believes that Quebec should become an independant state (regardless of the form of association of partnership with the roc). Lanççelot ( talk) 05:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I have been reading this article (as an interested observer, as I am American) and I have difficulty (as many non-Canadians would) with the parties, and groups listed as abbreviations and acronyms of the organisations instead of writing the group name. At the very least, I think each section of the article should spell out the organisations in question once, with an appropriate Wikipedia link. There will be many times someone will only need to read a specific section of an article, and I think it's necessary to allow the reader to understand what is being abbreviated without having to go to an earlier section of an article to decipher what is being said. ArdenD 17:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
When I was using this article for a school project, (Yes its always risky with Wikipedia), I found that there are no reasons listed supporting separation, but a section for being against it. I see why the neutraity of this article is disputed :/. 72.12.130.133 ( talk) 16:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Quinn
This article is truly awful. It is laden with grammatical errors and typographical inconsistencies. I couldn't begin to list them all. I also spotted a few inaccuracies. In particular, Ségolène Royal is described as being "the head of the French socialist party". She actually has never held any significant position within the governing body of the socialist party. In France, just like in the US, one may become the candidate of one's party without being a prominent figure in the internal governance of the party itself. Royal is such an example. The highest ranks she ever held within the French government include "minister of familial matters" and "co-minister of education", as well as local duties (e.g. congresswoman and mayor). But no specific ranking position within the socialist party. In fact, she has lately distanced herself from the socialist party on the grounds that the party no longer represents the younger generation and that it needs urgent reforms and a total re-foundation. Her stance has earned her to be ostracized by the prominent members of the governance of the party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.93.5 ( talk) 14:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
This article has been tagged for cleanup since January 2007, which is almost two years! We need to restart discussions on how to improve this article and find out whats going on. Laval ( talk) 19:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I have removed some original research and POV from the article, but its long and will take some time to really go over. The introduction was very bad and POV, so I suggest it is easier to expand that from scratch. This can be a sensitive subject for both sides, but I hope we can try to come up with a balanced solution. This can be a good article if we can stay neutral. Laval ( talk) 19:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: Source material from this article was used in the article Canadian sovereignty. I'm in the process right now of giving all appropriate editors due credit. Bsimmons666 ( talk) Friend? 16:51, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I'm a Canadian culutral historian at Concordia and am of half-french, half-english descent. I've studied these issues for some time and this article has many problems based on complete mis-interpretations of specific technical terminology. It is extremely important that this issue be explained as objectively as possible - and the last time I checked that meant a full explanation of the pros and cons of both sides of the debate. Among other things I aim to deferentiate between sovereignists and separatists and between the French-Canadian nation and the culture of Quebec.
I implore other writers to lay claim to what is theres and do their utmost to present this issue for what it is, not what they want it to be. The Prime Minister has been reckless with Quebec-Canada relations of late, and it seems he's going after PEI and Newfoundland and Labrador as well. While his tactless behavious has stirred up separatist sentiment (especially with his treatment of the Bloc Quebecois), we must not forget that major progress had been made of late to correct many historic injustices. It is within the best interest of all Canadians, especially those of English, French and Aboriginal descent to recognize that in our nations' infancy, cooperation and conciliation were key to our mutual survival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by T noakes ( talk • contribs) 02:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a misunderstanding about the nature of theses concepts. The association or partnership thing doesn't mean that Quebec would remain a part of Canada, but rather that it would create a new type of relationship between the two sovereign states (something similar to the European Union). Sovereignty-association or partnership must not be confounded with Quebec autonomism. Lanççelot ( talk) 23:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
"Several attempts at reforming the federal system of Canada have thus far failed because of, particularly, the conflicting interests between sovereignists' representatives and the other provincial governments' representatives". Federalists are the ones who want to reform Canada. Sovereignists want Quebec's sovereignty. "... by Quebec's representatives ..." would be more accurate. What do you think?-- 216.218.63.141 ( talk) 00:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Pejorative doesn't look like a synonym of the French word "péjoratif". Any better word to describe, following certains so-called sovereignists, the too strong word "separatism"? -- Popol0707 ( talk) 22:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is a collection of assertions without any substantiation of the facts. For instance, the article makes a statement that the sovereignty movement is not uniformly ethnically french. This is likely true given the size of the movement. But "not uniform" implies anywhere from 99.99999999% french to 0.0000001% french. This needs to be cited and replaced with an accurate appraisal of the support for the movement outside of french ethnicity. Or, it needs to not make such a comment at all. Later on it refers to the "controversy" around the clarity act. This is not strictly the truth in terms of what a controversy is. Those who found the clarity act to be a hurdle to their ambitions of course did not tend to support the act. Not having uniform support does not mean that something is controversial. For instance, President Bush 41 was elected with a small majority, though a very substantial number of americans did not vote for him, it was not controversial for him to become president. The next Bush was elected with the intervention of the supreme court and a disputed vote count in Florida. This was controversial. Just the simple fact of some people not supporting something does not make for a controversy. The article in these cases needs to cite the controversy and the basis of the controversy. If leading legal scholars in Canada came out at the time and said the government did not have the power to enact this law, this would be a controversy. Not sovereignty supporters who were forced to adopt clear language in order to get on a path to negotiate separation from Canada, who did not appreciate having a rulebook to have to play with, announcing their lack of support. Overall, this article I think reads like a (well written) high school paper. It's not an encyclopedia article and seems to take a point of view throughout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.46.166 ( talk) 05:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
The reference to 'multi-generational immigrants' is puzzling - historically Canada including Quebec has been largely populated by colonists, not immigrants. Although the two are sometimes conflated incorrectly in Anglo-Saxon pop culture, it would be surprising for Cree activists to confuse the two. (And 'multi-generational immigrants' is almost certainly nonsense.) Peter Grey ( talk) 19:19, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Removed cleanup and cn (2 then, 24 now). Obviously it's a contentious subject but looks like it's moved to a detail level workout. 72.228.177.92 ( talk) 23:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
"Polling data showed that 32% of Quebecers believe that Quebec had enough sovereignty and should remain part of Canada, 28% thought they should separate, and 30% say they believe that Quebec does need greater sovereignty but should remain part of Canada."
Looks like a typo. What is the difference between the 32% and the 30%? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.234.153 ( talk) 00:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I just went through the article and replaced all instances of "sovereigntist", both singular and plural, with "sovereignist", which is the common Canadian spelling.
Since this has national ties to Canada, it should not be changed. I am not certain, but suspect it has to do with the French spelling of the same word: souverainiste. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 03:43, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
The Canadian Oxford Dictionary lists it as sovereignist, with sovereigntist as the variant. The -ist version is most likely a distinct Canadianism influenced by CanE's daily cohabitation with CanF (in which the word is souverainiste, and thus almost certainly reinfluences CanE via the Montreal Gazette), while the -tist version is probably more internationally recognized — but neither version is wrong as such and both are used quite regularly even in Canada. I don't have any objection to an effort to standardize our usage on one spelling or the other, but that decision needs to be made by a consensus of Canadian editors, not by one American with AWB and a copyediting fetish who thinks incorrectly that a perfectly acceptable spelling is objectively wrong. Bearcat ( talk) 06:48, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
MOS:COMMONALITY opens "Wikipedia tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English". If Canadian English only recognised one spelling, that would be the spelling to use, however, as stated above CE recognises two spellings. As one spelling variant in Canadian English, is common to other types of English, and the other variant in CE is not, the common variant is the one that should be used. This is not an arbitrary decision, nor one that requires consensus, it is simply in accordance with MoS - the very first subsection of the frequently misquoted MOS:ENGVAR - Arjayay ( talk) 14:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
This sentence:
Quebec language laws violate the Canadian Constitution so the province regularly using the "notwithstanding clause" to suspend the constitution to maintain the legality of their laws.
This is a myth. The clause hasn't been used by Quebec since 1993. The most recent use of the notwithstanding clause was to stop gay marriage in Alberta. As noted in the article on Section Thirty-Three of the Charter:
In 1993, after the law was criticized by the United Nations Human Rights Committee, the Bourassa government had the provincial parliament rewrite the law to conform to the Charter, and the notwithstanding clause was removed.
I'm going to alter it so that it makes note that the clause is no longer used; as using 'regularly' here implies that it's still being used.
As a suggestion, and it's something I won't meddle with, but I propose to erase the juxtaposition with Catalonia and Tibet from the article. Firstly, it doesn't have any quotation, therefore such analogy might well have never been brought up. Anyway, I find it offensive drawing comparison between two regional entities (as they stand today, this is unarguably a statement of facts) and a region taken by means of genocide. In fact, I abhor and loathe such artificial parallelism which incorporation probably is down to a despicable attempt for the pro-independence advocates to gain approval amongst the neutral readership. Curiously it wasn't Quevec-Catalonia-Scotland. It had to be the Tibet. Spot the difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.61.102.235 ( talk) 15:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I think the Tibet reference is spot-on ... considering the ethnic cleansing acts committed by the British in other maritime provinces where French populations were forcibly removed (and the rest of the population left under duress) after conquest. The fact that this didn't happen to Quebec is a question of scale, not intent. Chesspride 172.164.60.117 ( talk) 00:12, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
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Has there been any discussion as to what effect an independent Quebec on the integrity of the rest of Canada? I'm thinking specifically about the Maritimes and Newfoundland and Labrador. Is it projected that Canada would be able to hold onto these provinces despite their separation from the bulk of the state? And if not, is that expected to lead to possible calls for separation in the western provinces? Not looking to start a discussion about it, just wondering if there had been such discussion and where to find data about it. -- Khajidha ( talk) 12:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
So I was shocked to see that there wasn't a collection of opinion polls on this issue, like most wikipedia pages and other pages on independence movements. So I created a section with just a couple of polls I found. Please add to it when there's a new poll, I know it's not perfect but don't delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.167.111.154 ( talk) 20:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
The most recent October 2020 polls don't add up to 100%. 36 + 54 + 16 = 106 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.117.90.2 ( talk) 03:13, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
I would love a poll of English speaking Canada’s views on this. West of out Ottawa this is anecdotally an “Anglophone’s” wet dream. 142.184.116.120 ( talk) 01:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
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I believe that the french page is in much better shape... and a slow transfer and translation might be the best way to clean up this article.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouvement_souverainiste_du_Qu%C3%A9bec —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.132.75 ( talk) 06:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Firefox didn't like editing a page this big :), so I decided to create an archive. I didn't bother to search for all the currently active discussions; fell free to move current text back in here. /Archive 1 MartinToupin 14:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Wow. This article needs a lot of work. I'm an American, but I'm in my 4th year of working towards a bachelor's degree in Canadian Studies. I believe I can offer a well-educated opinion (and hopefully) I don't have much of a bias because I'm an outsider to the issue. I'd like to help clean this article up...but I don't know where to begin with my laundry list of things that need some work. I do not understand the point being made by the previous post. As someone who studies Canadian politics and Quebec seperatism, and who monitors the Canadian English Language media carefully, I would strongly disagree with the contention that the terms separatist and sovereignist are interchangeable, or that they are ever properly used as such.
Sovereignist is not the same as seperatist is not the same as Quebec nationalist (Kudos for not mixing that one up). These three terms are related as follows: ALL separatists are Quebec nationalists, but only some separatists are sovereignists. ALL sovereignists are Quebec nationalists, but only SOME sovereignists are separatists. SOME Quebec nationalists are NOT separatists, NOR sovereignists, but federalists.
The whole existence of the concepts and ideologies of Quebec Nationalism and Sovereignty / Separation stems from the fact that there are two underlying and fundamentally different interpretations of Canada. One vision, held by ALL Quebec nationalists is that Canada is a double-compact -- a country formed by two nations, the French Canadian nation and the English Canadian nation. Therefore, Quebec, as the homeland of the French Canadian people should be treated constitutionally as ONE of the TWO founding nations of Canada. On the other hand, the predominant view in English Canada, and especially in the west, is that Canada is not a union of TWO nations, but TEN co-equal provinces. Therefore, Quebec is not entitled to be treated any differently in the Canadian federation and Constitution, because it is simply ONE of TEN.
With me so far? Okay -- this central disagreement about the nature of Quebec's role in Canada is essentially the reason for the existence of Quebec nationalism and sovereignty and separatism. Quebec nationalists all feel that Canada is a union of TWO founding nations, not TEN co-equal provinces. The federalists among the Quebec nationalists feel that the way to rectify this is to change the Canadian constitution, and that Quebec's best chance for meaningful cultural survival is as a part of Canada. Sovereignists agree with the TWO nations not TEN provinces notion, but feel that that argument is largely immaterial, because Quebec's best chances for meaningful cultural survival lie outside of the Canadian federation, but disagree with separatists as to whether the best way to exit the current Canadian federation is to become completely independent from Canada, or to renegotiate Quebec's constitutional position to receive separate powers of autonomy, but still exist within some kind of a looser arrangement with Canada.
I believe that this article would benefit from an articulation of the above facts. I'd appreciate hearing from people where such a section ought to be placed, and how I can make it more clear and easy to understand. I will also annotate with specific references. Thx.
I put down that in 1995 some 86, 000 No ballots were rejected without valid reasons citing a valid source and yet that number and source were again removed. We do not need editing wars, they get in the way of the truth and mix propaganda with history! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.85.176 ( talk • contribs)
I am confused as to why Quebec separatists would insist on seeing Canada as a 2-nation federation....French Quebec and English remainder...when in fact there are other Canadian provinces that have historical French affinity. Is it a case where British ethnic cleansing efforts -- i.e. removing French populations from the territories -- was so effective that these other provinces are now seen as English? I am open to that possibility...and I am also open to the possiblity that the Quebec side sees those territories as part of the larger "French nation" which makes up the 2-nation federation. It might be helpful if someone elaborated on this point in the article. Chesspride 172.164.60.117 ( talk) 23:56, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
The article is biased in favour of separatists. To begin with, its' clear that separatists wrote it because only separatists refer to themselves as "sovereignists," which is ironically the English equivalent of that ever so hated-in-Quebec grammatical error, the anglicisme. An anglicisme consists of directly translating from English to French, with the result that the translation loses the meaning of the original, and usually sounds awkward. Thus while most separatists refer to themselves in French as "souverainistes", sovereignists is both awkward and unusual, in that separatists is the English word for people with separatist political inclinations. Furthermore, the article presents separatist views as fact, which obviously is editorializing and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.251.236 ( talk • contribs)
The phrase 'sovereigntist' has only been used in English media since after 2000 and the term 'separatist' was used exclusively in English language Canadian media prior to that. To quote recent articles from the CBC or the Globe & Mail as 'proof' to refute the prior comment is either done through ignorance or political motivations.
After reading this article, I get the impression that the writers are against separatists. Don't get me wrong, I just stumbled upon this article, and I myself do not currently have a stance on the issue :). Perhaps my lack of stance allows me to see the bias, thus I've tagged this article as in need of a POV check.
Is "étapisme" really the best French term for sovereignty-association? My French isn't as good as it could be, but "étapisme" looks like it means "stopping off half way." It doesn't seem as precise as "souveraineté-association". The Canadian Oxford Dictionary gives the etymology as "first used as the slogan of the Mouvement Souveraineté-Association, forerunners to the Parti Québécois." Indefatigable 18:50, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
As expected, there are serious inaccuracies in this page.
Étapisme, from French étape (step) means step by step. The étapiste approach has been rejected as a way to achieve sovereignty. L'étapisme could consist of holding a referendum on the repatriation of jurisdictions, one by one, until Québec is a fully sovereign State, associated with Canada or not.
Some other problems:
"PQ leader René Lévesque, who led the party from 1968 to 1985, developed the idea of sovereignty-association to reduce the fear that an independent Quebec would face tough economic times."
This is the interpretation that was given by the English-speaking commentators at the time. According to René Lévesque and the sovereignists the reasons follow from logic :
- We were (and still are) moving towards a globalised world, where States open their borders to free movements of persons, goods, capital and ideas (therefore, culture). The construction of the European union was beginning. It was in the air to have these kinds of ideas.
- The case of Danemark and Norway as a good example. Following the independence of Norway, talks began for a political association profitable to both sides.
- Quebec and Ontario's economies were heavily interdependent. This is less true since the free trade agreement with the USA.
Again, this is an encyclopedia. You cannot simply put political opinions and propaganda in here. You need to support your claims with evidence. It would be good for this page to be written by people knowledgeable of History in general, colonial history and the history of Québec.
This page should deal with what Sovereignty-Association is:
1. A political movement that lead to the creation of the PQ.
2. A concept in which sovereignty is understood to be indissociable from international cooperation.
Bashing the separatists should be done in a page dedicated to it. Mathieugp
Just curious about the recent change. Has something shifted in the general separatist position? Is independent statehood not still the goal of the separatist movement? "Greater autonomy" sounds like they want more control over trade positions or whatnot. Switching back, but please feel free to discuss. Edit -- forgot to sign -- -- 66.129.135.114 17:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
What does Quebec want? Only a small minority of sovereigntists want independence, a minority position among a minority position. But most Quebecers will say they want more "autonomy" or leeway under the Canadian federalist system. Which begs the question, what does Quebec need? Toddsschneider 18:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The greater autonomy thing is NOT sovereignty. Autonomy means that Quebec stays in Canada but having more power (Meech). Sovereignty is separating from Canada to become another country, association or not. For example, the NAFTA is a type of association between us, canada, and mexico, but it doesn't mean that they form one country.
Please stop changing the introduction. Sovereignty is NOT about having greater autonomy (which is the constitutional position of the ADQ). Sovereignty is about making Quebec a country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.94.160.210 ( talk) 18:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
People should stop reverting the edits I made about erasing the greater autonomy thing if they are not willing to come on this page and discuss it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wassup54 ( talk • contribs) 03:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
This is false, the pq had been against meech and charlottetown and their ultimate goal is sovereignty of Quebec, which means that Quebec will become an independant state. Greater autonomy is NOT sovereignty. Some sovereignist may agree with having more autonomy, but having more autonomy has nothing to do with sovereignty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wassup54 ( talk • contribs) 19:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I consider myself an autonomist in the sense that I want Quebec to have more autonomy in the canadian federation. However, that doesn't make me a sovereignist. Sovereignists are by definition separatists that believes that Quebec should become an independant state (regardless of the form of association of partnership with the roc). Lanççelot ( talk) 05:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I have been reading this article (as an interested observer, as I am American) and I have difficulty (as many non-Canadians would) with the parties, and groups listed as abbreviations and acronyms of the organisations instead of writing the group name. At the very least, I think each section of the article should spell out the organisations in question once, with an appropriate Wikipedia link. There will be many times someone will only need to read a specific section of an article, and I think it's necessary to allow the reader to understand what is being abbreviated without having to go to an earlier section of an article to decipher what is being said. ArdenD 17:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
When I was using this article for a school project, (Yes its always risky with Wikipedia), I found that there are no reasons listed supporting separation, but a section for being against it. I see why the neutraity of this article is disputed :/. 72.12.130.133 ( talk) 16:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Quinn
This article is truly awful. It is laden with grammatical errors and typographical inconsistencies. I couldn't begin to list them all. I also spotted a few inaccuracies. In particular, Ségolène Royal is described as being "the head of the French socialist party". She actually has never held any significant position within the governing body of the socialist party. In France, just like in the US, one may become the candidate of one's party without being a prominent figure in the internal governance of the party itself. Royal is such an example. The highest ranks she ever held within the French government include "minister of familial matters" and "co-minister of education", as well as local duties (e.g. congresswoman and mayor). But no specific ranking position within the socialist party. In fact, she has lately distanced herself from the socialist party on the grounds that the party no longer represents the younger generation and that it needs urgent reforms and a total re-foundation. Her stance has earned her to be ostracized by the prominent members of the governance of the party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.93.5 ( talk) 14:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
This article has been tagged for cleanup since January 2007, which is almost two years! We need to restart discussions on how to improve this article and find out whats going on. Laval ( talk) 19:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I have removed some original research and POV from the article, but its long and will take some time to really go over. The introduction was very bad and POV, so I suggest it is easier to expand that from scratch. This can be a sensitive subject for both sides, but I hope we can try to come up with a balanced solution. This can be a good article if we can stay neutral. Laval ( talk) 19:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: Source material from this article was used in the article Canadian sovereignty. I'm in the process right now of giving all appropriate editors due credit. Bsimmons666 ( talk) Friend? 16:51, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I'm a Canadian culutral historian at Concordia and am of half-french, half-english descent. I've studied these issues for some time and this article has many problems based on complete mis-interpretations of specific technical terminology. It is extremely important that this issue be explained as objectively as possible - and the last time I checked that meant a full explanation of the pros and cons of both sides of the debate. Among other things I aim to deferentiate between sovereignists and separatists and between the French-Canadian nation and the culture of Quebec.
I implore other writers to lay claim to what is theres and do their utmost to present this issue for what it is, not what they want it to be. The Prime Minister has been reckless with Quebec-Canada relations of late, and it seems he's going after PEI and Newfoundland and Labrador as well. While his tactless behavious has stirred up separatist sentiment (especially with his treatment of the Bloc Quebecois), we must not forget that major progress had been made of late to correct many historic injustices. It is within the best interest of all Canadians, especially those of English, French and Aboriginal descent to recognize that in our nations' infancy, cooperation and conciliation were key to our mutual survival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by T noakes ( talk • contribs) 02:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a misunderstanding about the nature of theses concepts. The association or partnership thing doesn't mean that Quebec would remain a part of Canada, but rather that it would create a new type of relationship between the two sovereign states (something similar to the European Union). Sovereignty-association or partnership must not be confounded with Quebec autonomism. Lanççelot ( talk) 23:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
"Several attempts at reforming the federal system of Canada have thus far failed because of, particularly, the conflicting interests between sovereignists' representatives and the other provincial governments' representatives". Federalists are the ones who want to reform Canada. Sovereignists want Quebec's sovereignty. "... by Quebec's representatives ..." would be more accurate. What do you think?-- 216.218.63.141 ( talk) 00:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Pejorative doesn't look like a synonym of the French word "péjoratif". Any better word to describe, following certains so-called sovereignists, the too strong word "separatism"? -- Popol0707 ( talk) 22:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is a collection of assertions without any substantiation of the facts. For instance, the article makes a statement that the sovereignty movement is not uniformly ethnically french. This is likely true given the size of the movement. But "not uniform" implies anywhere from 99.99999999% french to 0.0000001% french. This needs to be cited and replaced with an accurate appraisal of the support for the movement outside of french ethnicity. Or, it needs to not make such a comment at all. Later on it refers to the "controversy" around the clarity act. This is not strictly the truth in terms of what a controversy is. Those who found the clarity act to be a hurdle to their ambitions of course did not tend to support the act. Not having uniform support does not mean that something is controversial. For instance, President Bush 41 was elected with a small majority, though a very substantial number of americans did not vote for him, it was not controversial for him to become president. The next Bush was elected with the intervention of the supreme court and a disputed vote count in Florida. This was controversial. Just the simple fact of some people not supporting something does not make for a controversy. The article in these cases needs to cite the controversy and the basis of the controversy. If leading legal scholars in Canada came out at the time and said the government did not have the power to enact this law, this would be a controversy. Not sovereignty supporters who were forced to adopt clear language in order to get on a path to negotiate separation from Canada, who did not appreciate having a rulebook to have to play with, announcing their lack of support. Overall, this article I think reads like a (well written) high school paper. It's not an encyclopedia article and seems to take a point of view throughout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.46.166 ( talk) 05:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
The reference to 'multi-generational immigrants' is puzzling - historically Canada including Quebec has been largely populated by colonists, not immigrants. Although the two are sometimes conflated incorrectly in Anglo-Saxon pop culture, it would be surprising for Cree activists to confuse the two. (And 'multi-generational immigrants' is almost certainly nonsense.) Peter Grey ( talk) 19:19, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Removed cleanup and cn (2 then, 24 now). Obviously it's a contentious subject but looks like it's moved to a detail level workout. 72.228.177.92 ( talk) 23:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
"Polling data showed that 32% of Quebecers believe that Quebec had enough sovereignty and should remain part of Canada, 28% thought they should separate, and 30% say they believe that Quebec does need greater sovereignty but should remain part of Canada."
Looks like a typo. What is the difference between the 32% and the 30%? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.234.153 ( talk) 00:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I just went through the article and replaced all instances of "sovereigntist", both singular and plural, with "sovereignist", which is the common Canadian spelling.
Since this has national ties to Canada, it should not be changed. I am not certain, but suspect it has to do with the French spelling of the same word: souverainiste. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 03:43, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
The Canadian Oxford Dictionary lists it as sovereignist, with sovereigntist as the variant. The -ist version is most likely a distinct Canadianism influenced by CanE's daily cohabitation with CanF (in which the word is souverainiste, and thus almost certainly reinfluences CanE via the Montreal Gazette), while the -tist version is probably more internationally recognized — but neither version is wrong as such and both are used quite regularly even in Canada. I don't have any objection to an effort to standardize our usage on one spelling or the other, but that decision needs to be made by a consensus of Canadian editors, not by one American with AWB and a copyediting fetish who thinks incorrectly that a perfectly acceptable spelling is objectively wrong. Bearcat ( talk) 06:48, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
MOS:COMMONALITY opens "Wikipedia tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English". If Canadian English only recognised one spelling, that would be the spelling to use, however, as stated above CE recognises two spellings. As one spelling variant in Canadian English, is common to other types of English, and the other variant in CE is not, the common variant is the one that should be used. This is not an arbitrary decision, nor one that requires consensus, it is simply in accordance with MoS - the very first subsection of the frequently misquoted MOS:ENGVAR - Arjayay ( talk) 14:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
This sentence:
Quebec language laws violate the Canadian Constitution so the province regularly using the "notwithstanding clause" to suspend the constitution to maintain the legality of their laws.
This is a myth. The clause hasn't been used by Quebec since 1993. The most recent use of the notwithstanding clause was to stop gay marriage in Alberta. As noted in the article on Section Thirty-Three of the Charter:
In 1993, after the law was criticized by the United Nations Human Rights Committee, the Bourassa government had the provincial parliament rewrite the law to conform to the Charter, and the notwithstanding clause was removed.
I'm going to alter it so that it makes note that the clause is no longer used; as using 'regularly' here implies that it's still being used.
As a suggestion, and it's something I won't meddle with, but I propose to erase the juxtaposition with Catalonia and Tibet from the article. Firstly, it doesn't have any quotation, therefore such analogy might well have never been brought up. Anyway, I find it offensive drawing comparison between two regional entities (as they stand today, this is unarguably a statement of facts) and a region taken by means of genocide. In fact, I abhor and loathe such artificial parallelism which incorporation probably is down to a despicable attempt for the pro-independence advocates to gain approval amongst the neutral readership. Curiously it wasn't Quevec-Catalonia-Scotland. It had to be the Tibet. Spot the difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.61.102.235 ( talk) 15:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I think the Tibet reference is spot-on ... considering the ethnic cleansing acts committed by the British in other maritime provinces where French populations were forcibly removed (and the rest of the population left under duress) after conquest. The fact that this didn't happen to Quebec is a question of scale, not intent. Chesspride 172.164.60.117 ( talk) 00:12, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
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Has there been any discussion as to what effect an independent Quebec on the integrity of the rest of Canada? I'm thinking specifically about the Maritimes and Newfoundland and Labrador. Is it projected that Canada would be able to hold onto these provinces despite their separation from the bulk of the state? And if not, is that expected to lead to possible calls for separation in the western provinces? Not looking to start a discussion about it, just wondering if there had been such discussion and where to find data about it. -- Khajidha ( talk) 12:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
So I was shocked to see that there wasn't a collection of opinion polls on this issue, like most wikipedia pages and other pages on independence movements. So I created a section with just a couple of polls I found. Please add to it when there's a new poll, I know it's not perfect but don't delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.167.111.154 ( talk) 20:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
The most recent October 2020 polls don't add up to 100%. 36 + 54 + 16 = 106 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.117.90.2 ( talk) 03:13, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
I would love a poll of English speaking Canada’s views on this. West of out Ottawa this is anecdotally an “Anglophone’s” wet dream. 142.184.116.120 ( talk) 01:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)