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Things to add
I'm interested in this:
Do we have evidence for this? I had heard the quotation before, but have not heard any official source linking it to the motto of Quebec. Also, do we have a source for the quotation? - user:Montrealais
I removed a good deal of material about the language question for pretty blatant NPOV violation. We definitely need a clarification on this: In
1978, Quebec Premier
Robert Bourassa used the
Notwithstanding Clause contained in the
1982 Constitution to annul the Supreme Court of Canada's ruling. Mind explaining how Booboo invoked the 1982 constitution, which Quebec never signed, in 1978? --
user:Montrealais
I will be reinstating what was deleted. READ IT CAREFULLY. It is not a POV, it is fact. And, because the Separatist government of Quebec did not sign the 1982 Constitution it still applies and Quebec has every right to use it. I will be adding more on the Notwithstanding Clause under "Canada". Read facts: Premier Robert Bourassa invoked the Notwithstanding Clause after Hyman Singer won his case against the Government of Quebec and the Office de la Langue Francais who ordered him to take down his sign with English on it on his Sherbrooke St. W.. Montreal, Stationey Store. The section of Bill 101 that made the use of even one word in English on a business sign or advertisement was declared as unconstitutional by: 1) The Superior Court of Quebec (see writings of Chief Justice Madame Lyse Lemieux, 2) The Quebec Court of Appeal, and 3) The Supreme Court of Canada. The cost to defend his rights enshrined in the Constitution of Canada in 1867, bankrupted Hyman Singer. In the end, his victory meant nothing when Premier Robert Bourassa used the Notwithstanding Clause to nulify the Court's verdict. Further, Bill 22 of 1974 did not make French trhe official language of Quebec. Bill 101, enacted in 1977, did on the very first line. In future, please delete and insert based on facts, not propoganda....DW
I don't think your style is winning you any friends. And I would like to see citations for your assertions other than just "look it up and don't bother me". You have failed to say just what portion of the article as edited is false, anyway. You made the assertion - you support it. - user:Montrealais
I made the changes to a biased, non-NPOV article that avoids major facts of history in order to propogate a contributor's own point of view. As V. Rosenzweig and 99.9% of Americans (and the rest of the world) know nothing of Quebec or Canada (see Canadian Wikipedian jokes), it is through an encyclopedia that they can learn. As such, distortion and omissions are not a part of knowledge. As to the reference to sexual orientation, why must you include it as part of your resume? Does it define your ability to absorb or transmit knowledge from/to an encyclopedia? My point is that many Wikipedia articles have references to gay rights etc. when the matter in the vast majority of cases is irrelevant to the facts/knowledge being passed on. I have not found one article, such as: Napoleon Bonaparte, hetrosexual etc. I really don't care if Leonardo da Vinci was gay or not, only what he accomplished. This is called equality, tolerance and simple respect for all human beings. I am however interested if Leonardo was persecuted but in this same vein an article on Quebec that mentions religion or government legislation should then deal with persecution where it applies in fact and in law....DW
P.S. to Montrealais: People who write articles solely expressing their own opinion but refer to WE have major problems. AND while I'm at it: IF taking a chain and wrapping it around Pierre Laporte's neck while he stuggles desperately for air for several minutes (see coroner's report) until he stopped breathing then is dumped in the trunk of a car isn't a BRUTAL murder, please tell the world what it is. I'm sure Monsieur Laporte's widow and children would like to be enlightened by your wisdom.
You are right, your wording and distortions, and irrelevant gay references have no place in an encyclopedia. Glad we agree!...DW
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a gay article. It is the unnecessary insertion of gay references that I strongly object to. Unless of course, you would like me to follow the same patter and start inserting hetrosexual in all biographies etc. So you are gay. Big deal. No one cares, just don't continue to reference it articles unnecessarily. Next, I am from the great State of Maine, Fort Fairfield, to be precise. Not Quebec. But, I obviously know much more about Canada and Quebec history than you....DW (enough!)
DW, please don't antagonize Montrealais. Rather, follow my example. I have made no secret of my adamant opposition to homosexuality, yet I've managed to work with openly gay Wikipedians (such as Maveric) without friction.
It's all a matter of understanding our common goal: to make an excellent encyclopedia article. If your goal is to get another contributor to agree with you, forget it. You'll never win.
It takes a lot of precious time to type on these talk pages. How about channeling some of your energy into reading our neutral point of view policy page? If you need help understanding it, or conforming to it, I'd be happy to help. -- Ed Poor
Can someone put a border around the flag so its white doesn't blend into the background? -- Zoe
I inserted the reference, with a link, to "Cultural Imperialism" on this page to demonstrate that, in contrast to the myth of oppression, Britain in fact did something quite extraordinary at the time (1774) by allowing the French in Quebec to maintain their religion, language and legal system. France did not in its colonies, including up to 1954 when France had imposed the French language, laws, and religion (Cathedral of Notre Dame in Hanoi) on the people of Vietnam, amongst others....DW
Merged from
I think the sentence in the heading "Quebec is also the sole territory north of the Caribbean Sea – aside from France itself, and the thinly populated archipelago of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon – where French is spoken by a majority of the population." needs to be changed. If I'm not mistaken St. Pierre & Miquelon have a very similar status as a department in metropolitan France. It's almost exuivalent to refferring to "the United States and Hawaii" or "The UK and Northern Ireland." Ggrzw 19:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I felt pretty insulted on the first words having a mispronounciation validated by documentation Quebec (pronounced [kwə'bεk] the w shouldn't be there, anglophones pronounce it because they lack prounciation, it should sound like K-BEK you should add a tiny vowel between but it's a much better way than kwebek ! -- DynV 09:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Different linguistic backgrounds result in different pronunciations in different languages, and "Quebec" has historically been pronounced "kwe-bek" in English. In English it can sound very affected to say "K-Bek". The vast majority of anglophones mean absolutely no disrespect whatsoever in the use of English pronunciations of "Quebec" or "Montreal" and no offence should be taken. In the French Wikipedia article on British Columbia, I would expect the French name of the province to be used. "Ontario" is pronounced slightly differently in French and English, and I wouldn't expect Ontarians to be insulted or blame it on some defect in pronunciation. One sign of a secure, cosmopolitan culture is the acceptance of different words for placenames in different languages based on the evolution of speech. England/Angleterre/Inghilterra/Inglaterra. France/Frankreich/Francia. Venice/Venise/Venezia. Would the English or French or Venitians be insulted? Corlyon 04:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Corlyon 26 September 06
With regards to the 'high school dropout rate' this is not an entirely fair statistic in the context of Quebec vis-a-vis the other Canadian provinces due to the fact that Quebec enjoys a school system that is somewhat distinct from the rest of Canada, with
CEGEP etc... The linked table of statistics only shows school leaving rates at age 20; however one will find that within Quebec there is a significant number of students who are able to return and complete their schooling - a statistic at age 25, for instance, is markedly different from what is shown.
See also
Talk:Quebec/archive 1
The only official language in Québec is french… not French/Englich..! (1974)
The Change of colonial powers section is not realy accurate, theres no word on the effect of it for first nation or the mention of any battle between people. The french article in wikipedia contain much more information and talk about first nation.
It looks like if Inuit is in the list, it must be a list of First Peoples, not First Nations? or is the article on First Nations wrong? --
Someone else 07:26 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)
For the present, I've removed the link to a "separatist statement" that was added. I don't think it's especially valuable just to link to some individual separatist's statement. Even an official link would be best served under, say, Parti Québécois for example. - Montréalais
==
Hi, it seems to me that the blue color on the flag is not the same one as the actual flag! Alain Michaud 20:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I uploaded a more accurate version of the flag to Wikimedia Commons if anyone would want to use it. Lotheric 06:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Resolved
Why are there so many different maps of Quebec on here? Surely one can be removed. It looks strange having so many different versions.
One of the problems about the size of Quebec is the difficulty in depicting the more populated areas as red "agglomerations" or regions as tiny dots on this huge map with the vast area of nothing representing northern/Upper Quebec.
The US has a similiar problem with Alaska. It is usually depicted as a much smaller inset than it's actual comparative size. Also Hawaii, which is generally pictured as being much closer to the rest of the country than it really is, and a bit larger than the tiny islands they are.
I suggest that the map/graph be broken down into "Upper Quebec" and "Lower Quebec" where the latter might have some chance of being understood and analyzed by a reader new to Quebec studies. Right now the depictions are so small as to trivialize "Lower" Quebec. They look silly. Student7 03:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Voltaire did not say that Canada was quelques arpents de neige, as he's popularly quoted to have said. He said that Acadia was quelques arpents de neige near Canada. Bearcat 02:12, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I don't feel comfortable starting a counter-edit war being new here, but I sort of question the anonymous removal of among Anglophones. It doesn't seem to me like a significant amount of Francophones are against the Charter. -- Valmi Dufour 15:36, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Valmi Dufour.
Furthermore, this phrase is not correct: "Often known as "Bill 101", it defined French as the only official language of Quebec". French is the official language of Quebec since the (non-separatist) liberal prime minister Robert Bourassa voted Bill 22 in 1974 (July 31rd) (reference). The french version of the page has the same error.
It should be mention also that all main political parties in Quebec since the fifties were nationalist except the Equality Party, a marginal Montreal west-islander anglophone party formed in 1989 (I think they're dead now, they didn't win any seats at the national assembly since 1994). The thing is not all of them were promoting independence. There should be a link to the History of the Quebec sovereignist movement page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.2.83.174 ( talk • contribs) .
Further agreement ...
In 1977, the newly elected Parti Québécois government of René Lévesque introduced the Charter of the French Language. "Often known as" (awkward ... should be; refered to as, the Bill name, that received favorable passage) Bill 101, it defined French as the "only" (if only one language is recognized "only" is redundant. Plus the point is just wrong) official language of Quebec. "To this day it remains controversial," (opinion, plus it is unclear what is, in the editors opinion, controversial ... the Bill or the French language) "and widely misunderstood both inside and outside Quebec." (judgement and opinion, no given proof, then again, pick a bill at random, Bill 32 ... any clue, either inside or outside, simple cojecture and rather empty value:) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.81.40.14 ( talk • contribs) .
Complete disagreement. It is factually wrong to say that French is the only official language of Quebec. According to the Constitution (and the British North America Act before it), Quebec is officially bilingual. The provincial legislature does not (and never did) have the power to change this. Claims to the contrary only stand because this provision of Bill 101 has never been directly challenged in court. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.115.105.94 ( talk • contribs) .
The previous unknown guy just says: "Claims to the contrary only stand because this provision of Bill 101 has never been directly challenged in court." Well according to that, the 101 DID go in court and lose on "concerning English-language schooling in Québec" issue of the law. (reference) And i'm agreeing to the fact that a majority of Francophone agree with the Charter (reference; sorry for the bad looking image) -- Zerat ca 23:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It should be mentioned that the Quebec Act of 1774 contributed to unrest in the Thirteen Colonies prior to the War of American Independence.
The article mentions that bill 101 is "to this day still controversial and widely misunderstood inside and outside Quebec". I would say that inside Quebec today, the bill would only still be controversial to anglophone and allophone communities, at most. I feel the initial fears have dissipated since the bill's adoption.
The article mentions "widespread complaints of the destruction of NO ballets "(sic). There was widespread complaints from both sides about the other side's illegal dealing in this referendum. I think mentionning only one side's is very partial and reflects a point of view, which I believe should be avoided in "encyclopedia format".
What do you think ? should these be editted ?
-- Mathieugp 16:21, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I understand this is the English article on Québec, but in Canadian government, the province is referred to as Québec (with the accent). Perhaps the article could be moved from Quebec to Québec.
I have never heard about this before I read this page. I believe I have a fairly wide ranging knowledge of the era and the incident and I would just like a source to the inquiry that says that Trudeau pushed the RCMP to inflitrate the FLQ to push them to violent actions. Much of the evidence of the time points to the idea that the RCMP had very little in the way of background on the FLQ and it was part of what led to the massive confusion on the part of the federal government at the time.
I could not find it in English (of course), but here it is in French:
http://www.vigile.net/00-10/octobre-grandchamp.html (last article at the bottom)
You can use Google or Babelfish to get a rought translation. I will translate it myself this weekend.
The name of the inquiry is the McDonald Commission. They also mention a Keable Commission in 1977.
In English, I only found this one good article:
http://www.vigile.net/01-1/flq-citizen.html
-- Mathieugp 12:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I found a radiocast on the subject of the MacDonald commission in the online archives of Radio-Canada:
http://archives.radio-canada.ca/IDCC-0-9-1500-10144/guerres_conflits/espionnage_canada/
-- Mathieugp 15:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm quite aware of the debate surrounding the level of crisis. What I am not aware of is information about Trudeau using the RCMP to infiltrate the FLQ and push it to violent activities. I did not read anything about this in the links provided. I really think if this can't be substantiated that it should be removed. Benw
-- Mathieugp 2 July 2005 00:30 (UTC)
This is all true and i wish more of those truths would make it to the first page. -SB
I've put back my modifications concerning the 1837 "rebellion" of the french canadians.
I am an historian who devoted his whole life to this brief moment of Québec history and I find it offuscating and frustrating to see a complete denial of the real story.
Most of the sources can be found in Normand Lester's Le Livre noir du Canada Anglais and are factual proofs.
Please respect the people that horribly died in this dark period...
"Je me souviens"...
Excuse my average english : How come there is no talk about the British invasion ? "Great Britain acquired New France through the Treaty of Paris (1763)" true but after they invaded and declared war and destroyed so many lives. It WAS NOT a peacefull trade in as this line would imply. Try to add a line about it. Lots of lives were destroyed in the process and there is not a single mention... why ? this whole entry is so biased.. there is so many thing left unsaid just because they could make anglophones or British folks look bad. The french language was barely protected until recently , english assimilation was prenominent , there was no desire to protect the french language 50 years ago much less 100 or 200 years ago. The october crisis was seen as a great human right violation, read the lines about it in the october crisis article, it seems like the prisoners were treated with the greatest respect. What a joke. People were arested for dumb reasons like being in a worker union or kept in jail for weeks without any accusation. Wikipedia's articles are as biased as can be, not surprising given it becomes the truth the majority of people believe.
This book has valid sources, and most of what is written in it is valid too. However, it is a pamphlet. Its avowed objective is to demonstrate the hypocrisy of these Anglophone columnists who desperately try to stain the reputation of Quebec nationalists while remaining silent on the wrong doings of Canadian nationalists. That being said, the history of the "rebellions" is complex enough that it can't seriously be summed up in a short biased paragraph like the one added by the anonymous user.
-- Mathieugp 03:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
User A. Lafontaine, which is believed to be yet another incarnation of DW/Angelique, is at it again telling us what the history of Quebec really is all about. Since I have a few minutes to spare, I will take the time to refutate what he has written:
"In 1774, the British Parliament passed the Quebec Act that helped ensure the survival of the French language and French culture in the region. The Act allowed Quebec to maintain the French civil law as its judicial system and sanctioned the freedom of religious choice, allowing the Roman Catholic Church to remain."
What a distorsion of events. All of a sudden, the governors of Canada and the British Parliament of the 18th century are concerned with the faith of the Quebec people, concerned with 20th century concerns over the fragility of its language and culture in the era of globalisation. In its infinite generosity, the always enlightened politicians of England would have allowed the "French" of Canada not to be deprived of the most basics human and civil rights. What wishful thinking.
Are we, the descendents of the Canadiens supposed to thank the British Parliament of the time for recognizing, finally, after 11 years of illegality, the rights it was supposed to have already recognized with the Montreal Articles of Capitulation? Quoting Louis-Joseph Papineau, here is what really happened between 1760 and 1774:
The aristocracy, armed with the sword of Brennus, and his Vae Victis roaring, issued that English laws would be those of Canada "for as much as the circumstances allow it."
There was an odious and studied ambiguity, which delivered everything to arbitrary rule, and left to the judges the possibility to always decide for the friend, the party, the purchaser, always for the English, since "the circumstances allowed it."
The public offices were openly sold with rebate, by the holders to their substitutes.
The General ( James Murray), shocked by the violence of the Judge-in-chief, had to suspend him and send him back to England. All the English population of Canada was irritated by the Governor's action, while the few Canadiens who took part in the events expressed their confidence in him.
Disgusted by the task he had to accomplish, he wrote to England: "Under the pretext that the exclusion laws against Catholics in England and Ireland are applicable to Canada, the new subjects are excluded from all public offices. There is only among the English and Protestant population that magistrates and juries are taken. This population accounts for 450 men, the majority despicable by their ignorance. They are drunk on the unforseen importance that has fallen upon them, and hasten the excercice of their new powers with ostentation and rigour. They hate the Canadien nobility, because it is respectable, and the rest of the population and me, because I prevent a little of the wrongs they would like to accomplish."
The merchants of London, influenced and blinded by those of Canada, demanded the recall of Governor Murray and obtained it. His commission was revoked because he had become sympathetic to the Canadiens. He asked for an enquiry, and, after examination, the Privy Council decided that the charges brought against him were not founded.
Finally, the law officers of the Crown were consulted. In 1766, they repudiated the ordinances of 1764 which had excluded the new subjects from any participation in the administration of justice, and passed one which enabled them to be jurors and lawyers.
This is the limit to the amount of justice that was granted to them at the time.
And then everything remained chaotic and in disorder until the Quebec Act or Bill was adopted, after the officers in law of the Crown had formally declared that the King alone was not a legislator; that He was legislator only with the two Houses of the Parliament; that the proclamation of 1763 and all that had been done of supposed legislation under His authority were as many unconstitutional and null acts.
Thus, the most perfect government in the world according to Montesquieu, Blackstone and Delorme, had remained twelve whole years in the ignorance of its ignorance, its usurpation, its incapacity and its negligence to govern by law rather than by arbitrary rule, always armed with the sword of injustice, never with the balance of justice.
---
DW then continues on to let us know that:
"Like there counterparts in Upper Canada, in 1837, English and French speaking residents of Lower Canada, led by Robert Nelson, formed an armed resistance group to seek an end to British colonial rule. Their actions resulted in the Lower Canada Rebellion. An unprepared British Army had to raise a local militia force and the rebel forces were soon defeated after having scored a victory in Saint-Denis, south of Montreal."
First of all, the invasion army lead Robert Nelson, that's in 1838. The 1837 events do not start by the actions of the "rebels". The starting point is when the unelected colonial government issues mandates to arrest 26 leaders of the Patriotes. The people who come to arrest them are not the police, they are the army. The law is being violated by those who enforce the law.
Prior to this, the loyalists of Montreal had already begun to organise themselves in militias. They were parading in the street and were very provocative. In reaction to this, some Patriotes created the Association des Fils de la liberté to arm citizens so they could defend themselves in case things got worst. We must remember that British soldiers had already shot three unarmed citizens in 1832. Everybody knew that at the time. Many men could not tolerate to see Loyalist thugs menace their families.
It is the approval of the Fils de la liberté by the leader of the Patriotes, LJ Papineau, that would have given the governement an excuse to unleash the troops of John Colborne on the population. It is on the news of the military intervention that the Upper Canada rebellion started. When civil rights were suspended, all there was to do was to cross the border over to the US or resist. The battle of St-Denis was not part of a military strategy on the Patriotes side. There is a possibility that some Lower Canada patriotes were hoping to organize themselves appropriately and kick the British goverment out. There is however no substancial evidence of this. When the mandates of arrest were issued, the Patriotes are still in the middle of their boycott strategy.
--
DW then tells us something we didn't know about Durham's report:
"After this clash, Lord Durham was asked to write a report on this incident and gave the opinion, in laguage traditional of the day, that the French population were "without history and culture of any kind" and were "to be assimilated". However, the British Parliament did not agree with Durham's opinion and maintained all the rights accorded the colony's French-speaking citizens under the 1774 Quebec Act."
The British Parliament did not agree with one part of the report, that is granting ministerial responsibility to the new merged colony. However, they agreed with the assimilation policy and that is why the two colonies were indeed merged together. To claim the opposite is plain wrong.
-- Mathieugp 6 July 2005 18:54 (UTC)
Mister,
Since you've been busy modifying the history section lately, I'll consider that you didn't read the discussion titled "A Lafontaine's version of history".
So, I'll let you revert your latest modifications by yourself, hoping that your obsession with Mister Durham and his fascist opinions is not chronical.
Sincerly yours
I removed:
Documented facts are needed as such unsubstantiated allegations do not conform to Wikipedia:Policy. A. Lafontaine 16:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
This is an article about the Province of Quebec. I removed/changed inappropriate titles not suitable for this article such as "Towards soverignity" which is covered in great detail elsewhere. A. Lafontaine 16:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed:
Snide remarks are unacceptable in Wikipedia and documented facts are needed as unsubstantiated allegations do not conform to Wikipedia:Policy. 16:19, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Edit : this is a known fact and well documented at statistic Canada. usually 21 000 immigrants are granted citizenship a year. The year of the referendum there was an astonishing never seen before and never duplicated peak of 43 000 people. 1/4 of that number was for the month of october only. Its the first time in history Quebec received more immigrants they Ontario. " Looking into the data for a longer period of time, we see that the increase in certificate attributions jumped by 87% between 1993 and 1995. The year of 1996 saw a drop of 39% in the attributions of citizenship certificates. " [4]
I removed:
The War Measures Act is not martial law. Documented facts on exactly who was arrested and proof they were not connected to the FLQ is needed as broad unsubstantiated allegations do not conform to Wikipedia:Policy. A. Lafontaine 16:35, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
WAR MEASURES ACT - I inserted the numbers arrested under the War Measures Act plus those charged. This is taken from the McGill University Website [5]about the October Crisis written by a senior Quebec Cabinet Minister at the time and McGill University Law Professor, William Tetley. User:Marc Allaire
This section should include a link to Night_of_the_Long_Knives_(Canada), along with a note that Levesque's version of the supposed 'betrayal' is not universally accepted, and has in fact been explicitly denied by the other participants.
Jacques Parizeau said that he planned to resign if the referundum was to not pass. We can't for sure know that he resigned because of the media pressure after his controversial speech. Pierre Duchesne on the other hand in his biography of Parizeau say that Bernard Landry requested Parizeau resignation a day after the speech. In any cases, I think that section of the article needs an edit. Fad (ix) 17:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Please look at this:
Ethnic origins Canadian - 68.7% French - 29.6% Irish - 4.1% Italian - 3.5% English - 3.1% Scottish - 2.2% North American Indian - 1.8% Québécois - 1.3% German - 1.2% Jewish - 1.2% Haitian - 1.0%
I don't understand why Québecois, Canadian and French ethnicities are separated because its essentially the same thing (if we consider the ancient definition of "Canadians")
Also, I don't understand why there's only 1.3% of Québécois in Québec...weird.
Could someone explain that to me please? Thanks!
One of the editors on this page might want to consider getting rid of many of the Wikilinks. Many are redundant, and others appear unnecessary. All those links actually detract from the article, rather than make it more useful. Merci, mes amis dans le nord de la frontière. Jim62sch 18:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I would recommed that the history section be moved up near the top of the article, and many of its sections shortened and moved to the History of Quebec article. Many of the history subsections could have main links to other articles in Wikipedia. I think that would increase the readability of this article. Any thoughts? -- Jeff3000 05:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Will any editor please provide a reference confirming that English is not an official language in Quebec? Someone... Svelyka 06:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Québec or Quebec? We could make a redirect. 69.158.65.32 00:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I think we should stick with Quebec. As much as I like the 'e' with the little mark over it (looks cool), I think that we should use the English spelling since this is the English wikipedia. For example, the article for Rome is not Roma, Athens is not Athína, Warsaw is not Warszawa, etc.
Redtitan
00:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The section concerning the act of union forgot to mention the final conclusions of the report. This VITAL information is of NPOV and should not be removed, whatever is your opinion.
Please respect history, at least a tiny little bit.
"Quebec's separatist debate has influenced many corporations to move their Canadian headquarters from Montreal to Toronto."
This would be hardly surprising, but still, I request a source giving the case of many notable corporations that have left Montreal to move to Toronto because of the separatist debate. -- A Sunshade Lust 22:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
If you want proof that corporations left Montreal for Toronto you have to look no further than the Royal Bank of Canada which used to have it's NATIONAL headquarters in Place Ville Marie and the Bank Of Montreal also moved it's national HQ to Toronto. Those are but two examples. Jringer Sept 24 2006 3:47 am.
It's probably true, but two exemples is not enough. Mister Horse Sept 24 2006 21:38
"Quebec's separatist debate influenced many corporations to move their Canadian headquarters outside of the province of Quebec, mostly to Ontario."
As a CA student in Montreal, I can attest that the corporate exodus isn't long over but instead has been transformed into a silent factor in the decision-making of many companies. Unless a Canadian company is tapping the Quebec market, it would rather locate its facilities in Mississauga than Laval for language and political reasons. This is especially true of Canadian subsidiaries of American firms.
The government of Quebec has been trying to stimulate the growth of the private sector by having the lowest corporate tax rates in Canada for years (and ironically, the highest personal tax rates, but then again the population is immobile). Nevertheless, Montreal's unemployment rate remains around 11% while, in neighbouring Ontario, Toronto's is 6% and Ottawa's is 4%. Montreal also has the peculiar distinction of having an unemployment rate higher than the surrounding province (8.5% in the rest of Quebec), which isn't true for any other major city I have data for.
G. Csikos email address changed to preven spam - Royalguard11( Talk· Desk) 22:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Even if it's was true that corporations left Montreal for Toronto, it's a POV that the reason is the sovereignty movement. A lot of corporations left NYC for LA during the same period anyways. I realy don't understand why this line is still in a protected article. Anyways, does it realy deserve its place in a 10 lines summary of the economy of Quebec? I don't think so.
The "corporate exodus" is an important part of Quebec's financial history. It marked a turning point as to which companies occupied most of Quebec's financial space.-- Ramdrake 15:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
While the financial center of the US may have diversified away from being solely focused in NYC (where I grew up), New York is still the financial center of the country. Economic growth isn't a zero-sum game so LA's rise didn't challenge New York's dominance. Remember, two planes went into NYC's WTC and not LA's US Bank Tower.
In Canada, Montreal went from being the major commercial capital of the country to a secondary player within the span of a decade. The process was completely different and completely due to the sovereignty and Frenchification movements.
By the way, if you're going to make uninformed, asinine objections, at least sign them.
G. Csikos
Unfortunately the data don't support your notions about your home city.
Excusing Quebec's poverty compared to the rest of the continent by saying that the resource-based rural economies drag down the figure is simply wrong. First, Quebec is 80.4% urban, which is the urbanization rate every other major province ranks at (Alberta is 80.9% for example). Secondly, concentration of population in a single city isn't as important as what everyone is doing to make money. Look at Pennsylvania or North Carolina, states with populations the size of Ontario's but really no major cities to account for most of it (Philadelphia is smaller than Montreal!). The population in those states is spread out into decentralized suburban and exurban communities but they seem to be thriving nonetheless.
In the end I wouldn't call anemic 2% annual real GDP growth during good times economic prosperity when Ontario has been clocking in at 3% annually and the US at 4%. If you are familiar with how an exponential function works these sort of differences compounded over decades should frighten you. There is something wrong with Quebec's economy and each year Montreal is becoming more and more a has-been.
By the way, I actually knew two families in my hometown, Parsippany, NJ, who were from Montreal but yet I have had trouble finding anyone from New Jersey here in Montreal (besides fellow students at McGill). Think about it.
Have you ever actually gotten the opinions of someone from outside Quebec or do you just enjoy sitting in an echo chamber?
G. Csikos
You may believe whatever you want but what I have been demonstrating is that the economy of Quebec (and by extension Montreal) is chronically underperforming its potential. Real GDP growth is half what it should be and unemployment is chronically high (high unionization has a lot to do with this too). Quebec has no excuse for not doing at least as well as Ontario.
All this sluggishness is in the presence of extensive fiscal stimulus that would anywhere else be the genesis of a frenzied, inflation-causing boom. Consequently there must be a dragging force on the economy and it isn't hard to conclude that separatism and the discouragment of the use of English in business are the causes.
These two factors are the obvious differences between Quebec and its counterparts in Canada and the US. Moreover, I know for a fact professionally that these two issues have discouraged investment in the province. I invite you to explain this dragging force otherwise.
While the overt exodus is over, companies now avoid Quebec from the get go.
G. Csikos
You hide behind privacy. Ramdrake, for instance, gives enough of his personal details (gosh, a real name!) so that I know where he's coming from (a Montrealer working in the IT field). You on the otherhand are an unknown.
Anyway, I never blamed Bill 101 or Bill 22 wholesale for causing Quebec's economic woes but rather a general hostility towards the English language established since the rise of the separatist movement. Keeping the public sphere French is one thing but preventing firms from conducting internal communication in English is another. It's both counterproductive economically (by impoverishing Quebec) and linguistically.
In fact, linguists (read Language Death by David Crystal) know that the only way for a minority language to survive in the face of economic and numerical dominance is bilingualism. The alternative is to watch the minority language shrink in influence to the point where the young of the next generation completely drop their mother tongue in favor of the dominant language.
Back to your lack of economic insight. No, US investments in Mexico have different origins: low costs and the tapping of a market numbering over 100 million. In fact the populations of Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries make it enough of an incentive for Americans to learn Spanish (which most people take while in high school).
The situation for Quebec is different. First, Quebec isn't so poor that American firms can't wait to open up a new office or factory because the labor is so cheap. It may get that way eventually though. Second, Quebec's population is small and will stagnate over the next century. Consequently, Quebec has to actively attract investment to receive it.
No, exports, being mostly of services rather than goods, aren't really affected by the security changes. Again, BC's and Ontario's economies faced the same currency pressures as Quebec's and yet they grew by 3.8% and 3.1%, respectively, last year. Real GDP growth in Quebec came in at 2.4% instead. Because, as I mentioned before, Quebec's fiscal policy is more pro-business than even Alberta's, there exists a major dragging force which I know from experience to be related to linguistic and political nationalism.
Right now Quebec's GDP per capita is 68% of the US's. If the US grows at an average of 3% annually (4% during expansions, 0-2% for weaker years) for the next 35 years, real GDP will be 2.8 times today's value. If Quebec's rate of growth remains at an average 1.5% for the same amount of time its GDP will be 1.7 times today's value.
That means in 2041 Quebec's GDP per capita will be 41% of the US's. How's that for disparity? For the sake of Quebec's future this dragging force on the economy must be removed.
I'm done proving your statements to be nothing more than hand-waving. Since you're incapable of doing any sort of economic analysis yourself to disprove me, I have better things to do than be concerned as to what is being presented about Quebec here on Wikipedia. Distort reality if you like but you have to step outside eventually.
G. Csikos, 10 November 2006
Of course the 4% growth is 4% growth in GDP per capita (and real GDP per capita at that). Take an economics class.
G. Csikos, 6 January 2007
Is it always the same person(s) who come in here almost every day now and either blank out the article or "remake it into a stub"? How controversial can the subject be to deserve that????-- Ramdrake 17:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Quebec is not "the second-largest [province] in Canada". It is THE largest and by far, being one and a half times the size of the closest runner-up which is Ontario. The only Canadian jurisdiction larger than Quebec is the Territory of Nunavut. But it is not a province.
Someone added "english" to the official languages. English is not an official language of Québec, so I deleted it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.68.135.219 ( talk • contribs) .
True. Quebec declared French as its official language. HOWEVER, I think the article should mention that English and French are both constitutional (de jure) languages of Quebec (and Manitoba and New Brunswick). That means that all citizens are entitled to services in either French or English, and that all laws must be written in both languages. The same is not true of Ontario, for examples, where laws may be written in English only, and the government is not bound to serve you in French (though in practice it does in many bilingual areas). 69.156.27.118 01:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I made a minor edit that led to deletion of an entire paragraph that then led to reading the entire article. Frankly, it is a hodge podge of assorted claims mixed with some documented facts that together is far from being part of an encyclopedic work. It will be a sizeable job to get this in proper factual format and will require much collaboration. I removed this because it is factually wrong and/or misrepresented, plus it lacks context and fluidity within the article:
Lionel GM 16:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I have also removed the following paragraph as it is not relevant to Quebec and has no sources provided:
Lionel GM 16:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Is this vandalism? I don't really know how / don't have the time to look into how to deal with it right now, but last I checked Quebec is a province in Ontario, not a country.
In french, it's a Nation, which differs from English meaning of Nation.
By area, Quebec is the largest province in Canada: only the territory of Nunavut is larger - is it me or is this badly worded? shouldn't it read 'By area, Quebec is the second largest province in Canada: only the territory of Nunavut is larger'
I removed the line: after the 1980s, the population of the rival British colonies to the south had surpassed 1 million, compared to barely 60,000 for New France. This was the first line under "Fall of New France". If anyone knows where it belongs, then edit and add again. Gary Joseph 07:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay people. This site is a disgrace. School children doing their research on Quebec are going to think it's like Iraq or Afghanistan here (no insults intended to Iraqis or Afghanis).
Lets get a decent article together here. This is an encyclopedia entry, not a political discussion forum.
Lets start by cleaning up the intro. It's too long. The intro mentions the Caribbean Sea. That's not relevant to Quebec.
Lets keep it short an focused. Look at the entries for France and Ontario, and lets model this page on that. History should be way, way down the list. Every single country or province (take your pick) has history way down on the list. You guys might care about the Patriotes and the War Measures Act, but 99.9% of the people coming here will be from China/India/USA. You need to tell the reader what they want to know, not try to influence them to your way of political thinking. People here seem to have trouble with that. Users won't give a fig about the petty fights between the French and English. If you want to rant about the inevitable march of history and list petty grievances , go to www.marxist.org or www.anglosphere.com.
The written style here is atrocious. Do any of you know how to write? If you do not know how to write good standard English, stick to editing the French site. No offense, but I wouldn't dream of editing the French wiki site with my French. Please extend the same courtesy here.
Let's try this :
Quebec (Québec in French) (pronounced [kʰwəˈbɛk] or [kʰəˈbɛk] in English and [kebɛk] in French) is the largest and second most populous province in Canada. It is the only Canadian province with a French-speaking majority and whose only official language is French.
Quebec is bordered by the province of Ontario, James Bay and Hudson Bay to the west; by Hudson Strait and Ungava Bay to the North; by the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and the provinces of New Brunswick and Newfoundland and Labrador to the east; and by the United States (the states of New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine) to the south. Quebec's capital is Quebec City and its largest city is Montreal.
Most of Quebec's population resides in cities like these on the banks of the Saint Lawrence River. The northern portion of the province is sparsely populated, but houses vast stores of hydro-electicity, forestry products, and mineral resources that drive Quebec's principal industries. More recently, information and communication technologies, aerospace, biotechnology, and health industries have replaced traditional textile and manufacturing industries.
Quebec was carved out of New France as a colony under the British Regime in 1763. It became a founding province of the Canadian Confederation in 1867. The "Québécois" have their own cultural identity, with a flourishing secular French-speaking culture. As a result, Quebec often goes its own way politically, exercising limited autonomy in taxation, immigration, foreign relations, language and culture. It also has a strong democratic independence movement.
There. That sounds pretty neutral.
(Note: Garry, I like your text above. Pretty neutral yes. Suggestion however, could be written: "The nation-State of Quebec (Québec in French) (pronounced [kʰwəˈbɛk] or [kʰəˈbɛk] in English and [kebɛk] in French) is the largest and second most populous province in Canada" since "nation-State" is becoming the correct real definition for Quebec within Canada / Thanks for your great job, Garry).
that's because we(in quebec) were given the state of nation few days ago, however, the meaning in french is different: a nation is a group of people with shared language, history and cultural belief. in english, as you said, if mostly refers to a country.
Oh and yeas this is terribly biased, I however thkink it still should include as much info about Québec as possible... even if some people think the only 3 countrys in the world are india usa and china... canadians and quebecers still use Wikipedia as a reference and could easily be tricked... both frenchs and english constantly bias this page to make them look cooler. english often remove parts in which they were guiolty while frenchs try to place those in evidence.. wikipedia needs some sort of system so people that really know what they're talking about get edit priority... OpsY 07:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
YAY for article protection! Thanks Samir! -- dragfyre 22:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's sockpuppet vandalism per se, but I noted a confusing trail of inappropriate edits by Dalent and have reverted the article as left by Royalguard11 EDIT: I should clarify, the edits were vandalistic in nature. Chang E 15:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
"Quebec's separatist debate has influenced many corporations to move their Canadian headquarters from Montreal to Toronto."
A recent edit states that La Marseillaise is considered an unofficial anthem of Quebec. I've lived in Montreal my whole life and while I've heard Gens du Pays sung any number of times, I doubt most people I know could recite even the first few lines of La Marseillaise. So I think that the statement is wrong, and I'm inclined to revert, unless someone can back it up. -- Nephtes 15:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I flagged the description of the economy as lacking requisite balance. This issue must be resolved.
G. Csikos
Update the parliament agreed that Quebec is a Nation inside Canada.
Updates should follow
No, Qubec hasn't separated yet, and no the bill hasn't totally passed yet. There are two votes in commons, followed by two votes in the Senate, followed by Royal Assente. Everything buy crap passes the first vote in the house. - Royalguard11( Talk· Desk· Review Me!) 22:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I placed the motion in the history section "PQ and the constitutional crisis". I thing we should leave the motion as is and not include any interpretations (such as Québécois include/doesn't include all people of Quebec since there are different POVs on this issue) --Zorxd 00:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
While I'm certain that Osgoodlawyer had no ill intent whatsoever in adding italics to this article's Province or Territory of Canada infobox, in doing so he or she caused many links therein to break. Based on the sources cited above in Why not Québec? and the Manual of Style, it would appear to be more appropriate to simply use "Quebec" throughout the article unless speaking specifically about the province's name in French. However, this assumes that the spelling "Québec" is not considered current in English. As the only printed dictionary I have at hand is a Merriam-Webster from 1977, I thought it might be useful to double-check with others that Québec is still considered a non-English spelling. Both Merriam-Webster Online and Encyclopaedia Britannica Online appear to consider "Quebec" the only valid English spelling. I'd hate to spark an edit war over this, especially since personally I use "Québec;" I simply want to repair the broken links in the best way possible. Chang E 21:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
So sad to see how people talk about Quebec; as if everything was beautiful and as if Canada was a good country respecting everyone. But when it comes on talking about Quebec French heritage, and Quebec's place within Canada, that's when we notice that Canada is not so good. The English assimilation attempts are still widely popular among the Canada's population. Quebec bashing is omnipresent everywhere, and even in this article. Quebec's political position is always diminished in order to amplify that of Canada, and to give the idea that Canada is good and that Quebeckers are always complaining about everything. I am a French Canadian federalist, but since I moved outside Quebec, I started off doubting about it... Why should Quebeckers live with people who proclaim multiculturalism, but who try to get French Canadians assimilated to their own way of thinking??? What's the point of sticking to Canada when you are not even able to live in French outside of Quebec, to get the core of your culture respected??? Oh yeah!!! Canada is bilingual... but what people don't say is that there's a fence that is continually being built up around Quebec; and then after a referendum, English Canadians ask themselves: "What's wrong with them?"... with them... not with us... with them...?!?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.102.40.14 ( talk) 01:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
I understand the point that was set out by the above user, and I agree with him. That is to say that both replies to that message are exactly demonstrating what is indeed disputed about. Both messages imply a strong English Canadian culture trait, which is that of sticking to writings whereas the French Canadian culture imply a more opened discussion and debate relating to what can be understood either equally by writings or by natural and personal sense of perception. It is a matter of not sticking to the sole commitment to writings; because in the French Canadian culture those writings are also the result of an arbitrary way of thinking that comes from the head of someone as any other thoughts that are not published; no matter the time it took to find out a conclusion and no matter how much it has cost to find it out. In that perspective, all researches, even those that are not in books, are as good as any published researches. They are references! But anyway, I guess that to understand that way of thinking, some people would need a written statement published by a famous person...-- Kilyu 05:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, on my french canadian point of view, the point is that each and every reference is as valid as any other ones as long as something indicates the origin. And someone's head is also good because studies also comes from heads as it was mentionned above... the sole difference is the depth at which the research was made, and so the credibility of the statements. However that fact doesn't mean that what comes from a single head or from unknown references is wrong and that it should be rejected... By the way, I'm a Quebecker who studied in a french-speaking university, and I can assert that each and every reference (no matter the form, the length, the origin, etc.) is as good as any other ones if that reference is indicated. That has nothing to be related with the artistic side of creation... these are two different things. One is about referencing one's statements, and the other one about archiving one's creations. In other words, archives may be used for referencing; and depending on the references you use, your assertions will get more or less credibility towards a subject. But as I said above, that doesn't mean that someone may reject one's statements on the sole basis that according to that person the references are not in-depth enough. You may validate and invalidate one's assertions with any other references though. Therefore, that means that you have to assume that what is said is right until you get a denying reference. But above all, you can also use your own judgement, and "read between the lines" in order to get the real meaning that is given by a person. Wording is only one way among others to express one's thoughts. -- Marc Doc 00:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to see that discussion in an English website... at last things are perhaps changing for the best... that was my opinion. But if you want more references, read the references linked to the French version of this article or any other manifestos and studies that are published in French... you will get the references you are looking for. And don't tell me that you don't speak French, that is not a valid answer... those references are as valid as the English references... even if you don't understand it. You're in Canada, in a bilingual country... perhaps you should start off learning French if you don't already speak it... that was my opinion as well.-- Dafjo 05:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Dafjo, Kilyu, go ahead and craft a section with your references! This is your Wikipedia too, after all :) I personally haven't time to, and not being a student of contemporary Canadian history, don't feel I have a firm enough grounding in the myriad issues. I'm in no position to craft anything from a NPOV on this particular topic in intra-Canadian relations. Chang E 13:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or self-respect, but as many French Canadians may think, English Canadians might be less cultured than French Canadians because of that tendency to reject all opinions and facts that are not referred in books or other written documents. Without generalizing that to everyone, watch TV if you want to know more about the way French Canadian debates and discussions are processed, and you will notice a huge discrepancy with that of English Canadian society. The cultural frame is much more organized and defined than that of the English Canadian society. In that case, you should try to at least keep in mind that even if we are in the same country both sides are aften poles apart from each other on many subjects.
I propose we remove the semiprotection. It didn't work anyway, as the vandal had a bunch of sleeper accounts which could edit regardless. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
He has finally made a mistake! He forgot to login and we now know where he's coming from. Traceroot on the IP 207.115.103.54 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) reveals that the guy is actually from Montreal, Quebec. RDNS and Whois have provided nothing else on the address. If anyone can find anything out (shared IP or not, proxy server, anything) it would be nice to know (for blocking reasons). I do know that it's not an OP (scanned with nmap) and that it's owned by Quebec company "Openface Inc." (openface.ca). - Royalguard11( Talk· Review Me!) 03:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the disambiguation wording. I think this is important. First, the article deals primarily with the current territory of Quebec, but at one time it included parts of Ohio, Missouri, etc. A person referring to this article looking for that might think that they'd found the right one, when in fact they hadn't. A second thing is that a person might read "in Quebec" somewhere, and on some occasions it could be the city, but the person might not realize that, and therefore might not bother looking at the disambiguation page, thinking they'd found the right page. I am not trying to put the entire disambiguation page here, I am just trying to prevent people from thinking they've found the page they're looking for when they might not know enough about the meanings of Quebec to know they haven't. Joeldl 17:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to quibble slightly with this change [8] to the disambiguation wording. For the province of Quebec (1763-1791), it used to say "see also" instead of "see". This article also contains information about the historical entity, but only the part of it that is now in Quebec. So "see also" is more appropriate than "see". Joeldl 08:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more informative to have the top census metropolitan areas instead of the top municipalities? I think it makes sense to have more cities and fewer places like Laval or Longueuil. Also, it's more meaningful to say that Montreal has a population of 3.5 million, since this is what matters if you're going to compare Montreal to other cities. A metropolitan area gives a better idea of the importance of a city than the population of the core city does. Joeldl 02:55, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This conversation started at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Three other uses.
In this case I think the fact that the name Province of Quebec (and not just Quebec) is identical makes it especially confusing. The Quebec Act extending Quebec into the area west of the Appalachians was one of the Intolerable Acts that contributed to the American War of Independence. Since Ohio had not been settled by the British at that time, it is understandable that it might only have played a minor role in the history of Ohio as seen by Ohioans. Nonetheless, it is part of their history. And it was definitely significant in the history of the United States. In fact, that extension was probably more significant in the history of the US than it was in the history of French Canada. Joeldl 08:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Things to add
I'm interested in this:
Do we have evidence for this? I had heard the quotation before, but have not heard any official source linking it to the motto of Quebec. Also, do we have a source for the quotation? - user:Montrealais
I removed a good deal of material about the language question for pretty blatant NPOV violation. We definitely need a clarification on this: In
1978, Quebec Premier
Robert Bourassa used the
Notwithstanding Clause contained in the
1982 Constitution to annul the Supreme Court of Canada's ruling. Mind explaining how Booboo invoked the 1982 constitution, which Quebec never signed, in 1978? --
user:Montrealais
I will be reinstating what was deleted. READ IT CAREFULLY. It is not a POV, it is fact. And, because the Separatist government of Quebec did not sign the 1982 Constitution it still applies and Quebec has every right to use it. I will be adding more on the Notwithstanding Clause under "Canada". Read facts: Premier Robert Bourassa invoked the Notwithstanding Clause after Hyman Singer won his case against the Government of Quebec and the Office de la Langue Francais who ordered him to take down his sign with English on it on his Sherbrooke St. W.. Montreal, Stationey Store. The section of Bill 101 that made the use of even one word in English on a business sign or advertisement was declared as unconstitutional by: 1) The Superior Court of Quebec (see writings of Chief Justice Madame Lyse Lemieux, 2) The Quebec Court of Appeal, and 3) The Supreme Court of Canada. The cost to defend his rights enshrined in the Constitution of Canada in 1867, bankrupted Hyman Singer. In the end, his victory meant nothing when Premier Robert Bourassa used the Notwithstanding Clause to nulify the Court's verdict. Further, Bill 22 of 1974 did not make French trhe official language of Quebec. Bill 101, enacted in 1977, did on the very first line. In future, please delete and insert based on facts, not propoganda....DW
I don't think your style is winning you any friends. And I would like to see citations for your assertions other than just "look it up and don't bother me". You have failed to say just what portion of the article as edited is false, anyway. You made the assertion - you support it. - user:Montrealais
I made the changes to a biased, non-NPOV article that avoids major facts of history in order to propogate a contributor's own point of view. As V. Rosenzweig and 99.9% of Americans (and the rest of the world) know nothing of Quebec or Canada (see Canadian Wikipedian jokes), it is through an encyclopedia that they can learn. As such, distortion and omissions are not a part of knowledge. As to the reference to sexual orientation, why must you include it as part of your resume? Does it define your ability to absorb or transmit knowledge from/to an encyclopedia? My point is that many Wikipedia articles have references to gay rights etc. when the matter in the vast majority of cases is irrelevant to the facts/knowledge being passed on. I have not found one article, such as: Napoleon Bonaparte, hetrosexual etc. I really don't care if Leonardo da Vinci was gay or not, only what he accomplished. This is called equality, tolerance and simple respect for all human beings. I am however interested if Leonardo was persecuted but in this same vein an article on Quebec that mentions religion or government legislation should then deal with persecution where it applies in fact and in law....DW
P.S. to Montrealais: People who write articles solely expressing their own opinion but refer to WE have major problems. AND while I'm at it: IF taking a chain and wrapping it around Pierre Laporte's neck while he stuggles desperately for air for several minutes (see coroner's report) until he stopped breathing then is dumped in the trunk of a car isn't a BRUTAL murder, please tell the world what it is. I'm sure Monsieur Laporte's widow and children would like to be enlightened by your wisdom.
You are right, your wording and distortions, and irrelevant gay references have no place in an encyclopedia. Glad we agree!...DW
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a gay article. It is the unnecessary insertion of gay references that I strongly object to. Unless of course, you would like me to follow the same patter and start inserting hetrosexual in all biographies etc. So you are gay. Big deal. No one cares, just don't continue to reference it articles unnecessarily. Next, I am from the great State of Maine, Fort Fairfield, to be precise. Not Quebec. But, I obviously know much more about Canada and Quebec history than you....DW (enough!)
DW, please don't antagonize Montrealais. Rather, follow my example. I have made no secret of my adamant opposition to homosexuality, yet I've managed to work with openly gay Wikipedians (such as Maveric) without friction.
It's all a matter of understanding our common goal: to make an excellent encyclopedia article. If your goal is to get another contributor to agree with you, forget it. You'll never win.
It takes a lot of precious time to type on these talk pages. How about channeling some of your energy into reading our neutral point of view policy page? If you need help understanding it, or conforming to it, I'd be happy to help. -- Ed Poor
Can someone put a border around the flag so its white doesn't blend into the background? -- Zoe
I inserted the reference, with a link, to "Cultural Imperialism" on this page to demonstrate that, in contrast to the myth of oppression, Britain in fact did something quite extraordinary at the time (1774) by allowing the French in Quebec to maintain their religion, language and legal system. France did not in its colonies, including up to 1954 when France had imposed the French language, laws, and religion (Cathedral of Notre Dame in Hanoi) on the people of Vietnam, amongst others....DW
Merged from
I think the sentence in the heading "Quebec is also the sole territory north of the Caribbean Sea – aside from France itself, and the thinly populated archipelago of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon – where French is spoken by a majority of the population." needs to be changed. If I'm not mistaken St. Pierre & Miquelon have a very similar status as a department in metropolitan France. It's almost exuivalent to refferring to "the United States and Hawaii" or "The UK and Northern Ireland." Ggrzw 19:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I felt pretty insulted on the first words having a mispronounciation validated by documentation Quebec (pronounced [kwə'bεk] the w shouldn't be there, anglophones pronounce it because they lack prounciation, it should sound like K-BEK you should add a tiny vowel between but it's a much better way than kwebek ! -- DynV 09:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Different linguistic backgrounds result in different pronunciations in different languages, and "Quebec" has historically been pronounced "kwe-bek" in English. In English it can sound very affected to say "K-Bek". The vast majority of anglophones mean absolutely no disrespect whatsoever in the use of English pronunciations of "Quebec" or "Montreal" and no offence should be taken. In the French Wikipedia article on British Columbia, I would expect the French name of the province to be used. "Ontario" is pronounced slightly differently in French and English, and I wouldn't expect Ontarians to be insulted or blame it on some defect in pronunciation. One sign of a secure, cosmopolitan culture is the acceptance of different words for placenames in different languages based on the evolution of speech. England/Angleterre/Inghilterra/Inglaterra. France/Frankreich/Francia. Venice/Venise/Venezia. Would the English or French or Venitians be insulted? Corlyon 04:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Corlyon 26 September 06
With regards to the 'high school dropout rate' this is not an entirely fair statistic in the context of Quebec vis-a-vis the other Canadian provinces due to the fact that Quebec enjoys a school system that is somewhat distinct from the rest of Canada, with
CEGEP etc... The linked table of statistics only shows school leaving rates at age 20; however one will find that within Quebec there is a significant number of students who are able to return and complete their schooling - a statistic at age 25, for instance, is markedly different from what is shown.
See also
Talk:Quebec/archive 1
The only official language in Québec is french… not French/Englich..! (1974)
The Change of colonial powers section is not realy accurate, theres no word on the effect of it for first nation or the mention of any battle between people. The french article in wikipedia contain much more information and talk about first nation.
It looks like if Inuit is in the list, it must be a list of First Peoples, not First Nations? or is the article on First Nations wrong? --
Someone else 07:26 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)
For the present, I've removed the link to a "separatist statement" that was added. I don't think it's especially valuable just to link to some individual separatist's statement. Even an official link would be best served under, say, Parti Québécois for example. - Montréalais
==
Hi, it seems to me that the blue color on the flag is not the same one as the actual flag! Alain Michaud 20:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I uploaded a more accurate version of the flag to Wikimedia Commons if anyone would want to use it. Lotheric 06:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Resolved
Why are there so many different maps of Quebec on here? Surely one can be removed. It looks strange having so many different versions.
One of the problems about the size of Quebec is the difficulty in depicting the more populated areas as red "agglomerations" or regions as tiny dots on this huge map with the vast area of nothing representing northern/Upper Quebec.
The US has a similiar problem with Alaska. It is usually depicted as a much smaller inset than it's actual comparative size. Also Hawaii, which is generally pictured as being much closer to the rest of the country than it really is, and a bit larger than the tiny islands they are.
I suggest that the map/graph be broken down into "Upper Quebec" and "Lower Quebec" where the latter might have some chance of being understood and analyzed by a reader new to Quebec studies. Right now the depictions are so small as to trivialize "Lower" Quebec. They look silly. Student7 03:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Voltaire did not say that Canada was quelques arpents de neige, as he's popularly quoted to have said. He said that Acadia was quelques arpents de neige near Canada. Bearcat 02:12, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I don't feel comfortable starting a counter-edit war being new here, but I sort of question the anonymous removal of among Anglophones. It doesn't seem to me like a significant amount of Francophones are against the Charter. -- Valmi Dufour 15:36, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Valmi Dufour.
Furthermore, this phrase is not correct: "Often known as "Bill 101", it defined French as the only official language of Quebec". French is the official language of Quebec since the (non-separatist) liberal prime minister Robert Bourassa voted Bill 22 in 1974 (July 31rd) (reference). The french version of the page has the same error.
It should be mention also that all main political parties in Quebec since the fifties were nationalist except the Equality Party, a marginal Montreal west-islander anglophone party formed in 1989 (I think they're dead now, they didn't win any seats at the national assembly since 1994). The thing is not all of them were promoting independence. There should be a link to the History of the Quebec sovereignist movement page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.2.83.174 ( talk • contribs) .
Further agreement ...
In 1977, the newly elected Parti Québécois government of René Lévesque introduced the Charter of the French Language. "Often known as" (awkward ... should be; refered to as, the Bill name, that received favorable passage) Bill 101, it defined French as the "only" (if only one language is recognized "only" is redundant. Plus the point is just wrong) official language of Quebec. "To this day it remains controversial," (opinion, plus it is unclear what is, in the editors opinion, controversial ... the Bill or the French language) "and widely misunderstood both inside and outside Quebec." (judgement and opinion, no given proof, then again, pick a bill at random, Bill 32 ... any clue, either inside or outside, simple cojecture and rather empty value:) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.81.40.14 ( talk • contribs) .
Complete disagreement. It is factually wrong to say that French is the only official language of Quebec. According to the Constitution (and the British North America Act before it), Quebec is officially bilingual. The provincial legislature does not (and never did) have the power to change this. Claims to the contrary only stand because this provision of Bill 101 has never been directly challenged in court. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.115.105.94 ( talk • contribs) .
The previous unknown guy just says: "Claims to the contrary only stand because this provision of Bill 101 has never been directly challenged in court." Well according to that, the 101 DID go in court and lose on "concerning English-language schooling in Québec" issue of the law. (reference) And i'm agreeing to the fact that a majority of Francophone agree with the Charter (reference; sorry for the bad looking image) -- Zerat ca 23:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It should be mentioned that the Quebec Act of 1774 contributed to unrest in the Thirteen Colonies prior to the War of American Independence.
The article mentions that bill 101 is "to this day still controversial and widely misunderstood inside and outside Quebec". I would say that inside Quebec today, the bill would only still be controversial to anglophone and allophone communities, at most. I feel the initial fears have dissipated since the bill's adoption.
The article mentions "widespread complaints of the destruction of NO ballets "(sic). There was widespread complaints from both sides about the other side's illegal dealing in this referendum. I think mentionning only one side's is very partial and reflects a point of view, which I believe should be avoided in "encyclopedia format".
What do you think ? should these be editted ?
-- Mathieugp 16:21, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I understand this is the English article on Québec, but in Canadian government, the province is referred to as Québec (with the accent). Perhaps the article could be moved from Quebec to Québec.
I have never heard about this before I read this page. I believe I have a fairly wide ranging knowledge of the era and the incident and I would just like a source to the inquiry that says that Trudeau pushed the RCMP to inflitrate the FLQ to push them to violent actions. Much of the evidence of the time points to the idea that the RCMP had very little in the way of background on the FLQ and it was part of what led to the massive confusion on the part of the federal government at the time.
I could not find it in English (of course), but here it is in French:
http://www.vigile.net/00-10/octobre-grandchamp.html (last article at the bottom)
You can use Google or Babelfish to get a rought translation. I will translate it myself this weekend.
The name of the inquiry is the McDonald Commission. They also mention a Keable Commission in 1977.
In English, I only found this one good article:
http://www.vigile.net/01-1/flq-citizen.html
-- Mathieugp 12:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I found a radiocast on the subject of the MacDonald commission in the online archives of Radio-Canada:
http://archives.radio-canada.ca/IDCC-0-9-1500-10144/guerres_conflits/espionnage_canada/
-- Mathieugp 15:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm quite aware of the debate surrounding the level of crisis. What I am not aware of is information about Trudeau using the RCMP to infiltrate the FLQ and push it to violent activities. I did not read anything about this in the links provided. I really think if this can't be substantiated that it should be removed. Benw
-- Mathieugp 2 July 2005 00:30 (UTC)
This is all true and i wish more of those truths would make it to the first page. -SB
I've put back my modifications concerning the 1837 "rebellion" of the french canadians.
I am an historian who devoted his whole life to this brief moment of Québec history and I find it offuscating and frustrating to see a complete denial of the real story.
Most of the sources can be found in Normand Lester's Le Livre noir du Canada Anglais and are factual proofs.
Please respect the people that horribly died in this dark period...
"Je me souviens"...
Excuse my average english : How come there is no talk about the British invasion ? "Great Britain acquired New France through the Treaty of Paris (1763)" true but after they invaded and declared war and destroyed so many lives. It WAS NOT a peacefull trade in as this line would imply. Try to add a line about it. Lots of lives were destroyed in the process and there is not a single mention... why ? this whole entry is so biased.. there is so many thing left unsaid just because they could make anglophones or British folks look bad. The french language was barely protected until recently , english assimilation was prenominent , there was no desire to protect the french language 50 years ago much less 100 or 200 years ago. The october crisis was seen as a great human right violation, read the lines about it in the october crisis article, it seems like the prisoners were treated with the greatest respect. What a joke. People were arested for dumb reasons like being in a worker union or kept in jail for weeks without any accusation. Wikipedia's articles are as biased as can be, not surprising given it becomes the truth the majority of people believe.
This book has valid sources, and most of what is written in it is valid too. However, it is a pamphlet. Its avowed objective is to demonstrate the hypocrisy of these Anglophone columnists who desperately try to stain the reputation of Quebec nationalists while remaining silent on the wrong doings of Canadian nationalists. That being said, the history of the "rebellions" is complex enough that it can't seriously be summed up in a short biased paragraph like the one added by the anonymous user.
-- Mathieugp 03:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
User A. Lafontaine, which is believed to be yet another incarnation of DW/Angelique, is at it again telling us what the history of Quebec really is all about. Since I have a few minutes to spare, I will take the time to refutate what he has written:
"In 1774, the British Parliament passed the Quebec Act that helped ensure the survival of the French language and French culture in the region. The Act allowed Quebec to maintain the French civil law as its judicial system and sanctioned the freedom of religious choice, allowing the Roman Catholic Church to remain."
What a distorsion of events. All of a sudden, the governors of Canada and the British Parliament of the 18th century are concerned with the faith of the Quebec people, concerned with 20th century concerns over the fragility of its language and culture in the era of globalisation. In its infinite generosity, the always enlightened politicians of England would have allowed the "French" of Canada not to be deprived of the most basics human and civil rights. What wishful thinking.
Are we, the descendents of the Canadiens supposed to thank the British Parliament of the time for recognizing, finally, after 11 years of illegality, the rights it was supposed to have already recognized with the Montreal Articles of Capitulation? Quoting Louis-Joseph Papineau, here is what really happened between 1760 and 1774:
The aristocracy, armed with the sword of Brennus, and his Vae Victis roaring, issued that English laws would be those of Canada "for as much as the circumstances allow it."
There was an odious and studied ambiguity, which delivered everything to arbitrary rule, and left to the judges the possibility to always decide for the friend, the party, the purchaser, always for the English, since "the circumstances allowed it."
The public offices were openly sold with rebate, by the holders to their substitutes.
The General ( James Murray), shocked by the violence of the Judge-in-chief, had to suspend him and send him back to England. All the English population of Canada was irritated by the Governor's action, while the few Canadiens who took part in the events expressed their confidence in him.
Disgusted by the task he had to accomplish, he wrote to England: "Under the pretext that the exclusion laws against Catholics in England and Ireland are applicable to Canada, the new subjects are excluded from all public offices. There is only among the English and Protestant population that magistrates and juries are taken. This population accounts for 450 men, the majority despicable by their ignorance. They are drunk on the unforseen importance that has fallen upon them, and hasten the excercice of their new powers with ostentation and rigour. They hate the Canadien nobility, because it is respectable, and the rest of the population and me, because I prevent a little of the wrongs they would like to accomplish."
The merchants of London, influenced and blinded by those of Canada, demanded the recall of Governor Murray and obtained it. His commission was revoked because he had become sympathetic to the Canadiens. He asked for an enquiry, and, after examination, the Privy Council decided that the charges brought against him were not founded.
Finally, the law officers of the Crown were consulted. In 1766, they repudiated the ordinances of 1764 which had excluded the new subjects from any participation in the administration of justice, and passed one which enabled them to be jurors and lawyers.
This is the limit to the amount of justice that was granted to them at the time.
And then everything remained chaotic and in disorder until the Quebec Act or Bill was adopted, after the officers in law of the Crown had formally declared that the King alone was not a legislator; that He was legislator only with the two Houses of the Parliament; that the proclamation of 1763 and all that had been done of supposed legislation under His authority were as many unconstitutional and null acts.
Thus, the most perfect government in the world according to Montesquieu, Blackstone and Delorme, had remained twelve whole years in the ignorance of its ignorance, its usurpation, its incapacity and its negligence to govern by law rather than by arbitrary rule, always armed with the sword of injustice, never with the balance of justice.
---
DW then continues on to let us know that:
"Like there counterparts in Upper Canada, in 1837, English and French speaking residents of Lower Canada, led by Robert Nelson, formed an armed resistance group to seek an end to British colonial rule. Their actions resulted in the Lower Canada Rebellion. An unprepared British Army had to raise a local militia force and the rebel forces were soon defeated after having scored a victory in Saint-Denis, south of Montreal."
First of all, the invasion army lead Robert Nelson, that's in 1838. The 1837 events do not start by the actions of the "rebels". The starting point is when the unelected colonial government issues mandates to arrest 26 leaders of the Patriotes. The people who come to arrest them are not the police, they are the army. The law is being violated by those who enforce the law.
Prior to this, the loyalists of Montreal had already begun to organise themselves in militias. They were parading in the street and were very provocative. In reaction to this, some Patriotes created the Association des Fils de la liberté to arm citizens so they could defend themselves in case things got worst. We must remember that British soldiers had already shot three unarmed citizens in 1832. Everybody knew that at the time. Many men could not tolerate to see Loyalist thugs menace their families.
It is the approval of the Fils de la liberté by the leader of the Patriotes, LJ Papineau, that would have given the governement an excuse to unleash the troops of John Colborne on the population. It is on the news of the military intervention that the Upper Canada rebellion started. When civil rights were suspended, all there was to do was to cross the border over to the US or resist. The battle of St-Denis was not part of a military strategy on the Patriotes side. There is a possibility that some Lower Canada patriotes were hoping to organize themselves appropriately and kick the British goverment out. There is however no substancial evidence of this. When the mandates of arrest were issued, the Patriotes are still in the middle of their boycott strategy.
--
DW then tells us something we didn't know about Durham's report:
"After this clash, Lord Durham was asked to write a report on this incident and gave the opinion, in laguage traditional of the day, that the French population were "without history and culture of any kind" and were "to be assimilated". However, the British Parliament did not agree with Durham's opinion and maintained all the rights accorded the colony's French-speaking citizens under the 1774 Quebec Act."
The British Parliament did not agree with one part of the report, that is granting ministerial responsibility to the new merged colony. However, they agreed with the assimilation policy and that is why the two colonies were indeed merged together. To claim the opposite is plain wrong.
-- Mathieugp 6 July 2005 18:54 (UTC)
Mister,
Since you've been busy modifying the history section lately, I'll consider that you didn't read the discussion titled "A Lafontaine's version of history".
So, I'll let you revert your latest modifications by yourself, hoping that your obsession with Mister Durham and his fascist opinions is not chronical.
Sincerly yours
I removed:
Documented facts are needed as such unsubstantiated allegations do not conform to Wikipedia:Policy. A. Lafontaine 16:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
This is an article about the Province of Quebec. I removed/changed inappropriate titles not suitable for this article such as "Towards soverignity" which is covered in great detail elsewhere. A. Lafontaine 16:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed:
Snide remarks are unacceptable in Wikipedia and documented facts are needed as unsubstantiated allegations do not conform to Wikipedia:Policy. 16:19, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Edit : this is a known fact and well documented at statistic Canada. usually 21 000 immigrants are granted citizenship a year. The year of the referendum there was an astonishing never seen before and never duplicated peak of 43 000 people. 1/4 of that number was for the month of october only. Its the first time in history Quebec received more immigrants they Ontario. " Looking into the data for a longer period of time, we see that the increase in certificate attributions jumped by 87% between 1993 and 1995. The year of 1996 saw a drop of 39% in the attributions of citizenship certificates. " [4]
I removed:
The War Measures Act is not martial law. Documented facts on exactly who was arrested and proof they were not connected to the FLQ is needed as broad unsubstantiated allegations do not conform to Wikipedia:Policy. A. Lafontaine 16:35, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
WAR MEASURES ACT - I inserted the numbers arrested under the War Measures Act plus those charged. This is taken from the McGill University Website [5]about the October Crisis written by a senior Quebec Cabinet Minister at the time and McGill University Law Professor, William Tetley. User:Marc Allaire
This section should include a link to Night_of_the_Long_Knives_(Canada), along with a note that Levesque's version of the supposed 'betrayal' is not universally accepted, and has in fact been explicitly denied by the other participants.
Jacques Parizeau said that he planned to resign if the referundum was to not pass. We can't for sure know that he resigned because of the media pressure after his controversial speech. Pierre Duchesne on the other hand in his biography of Parizeau say that Bernard Landry requested Parizeau resignation a day after the speech. In any cases, I think that section of the article needs an edit. Fad (ix) 17:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Please look at this:
Ethnic origins Canadian - 68.7% French - 29.6% Irish - 4.1% Italian - 3.5% English - 3.1% Scottish - 2.2% North American Indian - 1.8% Québécois - 1.3% German - 1.2% Jewish - 1.2% Haitian - 1.0%
I don't understand why Québecois, Canadian and French ethnicities are separated because its essentially the same thing (if we consider the ancient definition of "Canadians")
Also, I don't understand why there's only 1.3% of Québécois in Québec...weird.
Could someone explain that to me please? Thanks!
One of the editors on this page might want to consider getting rid of many of the Wikilinks. Many are redundant, and others appear unnecessary. All those links actually detract from the article, rather than make it more useful. Merci, mes amis dans le nord de la frontière. Jim62sch 18:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I would recommed that the history section be moved up near the top of the article, and many of its sections shortened and moved to the History of Quebec article. Many of the history subsections could have main links to other articles in Wikipedia. I think that would increase the readability of this article. Any thoughts? -- Jeff3000 05:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Will any editor please provide a reference confirming that English is not an official language in Quebec? Someone... Svelyka 06:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Québec or Quebec? We could make a redirect. 69.158.65.32 00:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I think we should stick with Quebec. As much as I like the 'e' with the little mark over it (looks cool), I think that we should use the English spelling since this is the English wikipedia. For example, the article for Rome is not Roma, Athens is not Athína, Warsaw is not Warszawa, etc.
Redtitan
00:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The section concerning the act of union forgot to mention the final conclusions of the report. This VITAL information is of NPOV and should not be removed, whatever is your opinion.
Please respect history, at least a tiny little bit.
"Quebec's separatist debate has influenced many corporations to move their Canadian headquarters from Montreal to Toronto."
This would be hardly surprising, but still, I request a source giving the case of many notable corporations that have left Montreal to move to Toronto because of the separatist debate. -- A Sunshade Lust 22:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
If you want proof that corporations left Montreal for Toronto you have to look no further than the Royal Bank of Canada which used to have it's NATIONAL headquarters in Place Ville Marie and the Bank Of Montreal also moved it's national HQ to Toronto. Those are but two examples. Jringer Sept 24 2006 3:47 am.
It's probably true, but two exemples is not enough. Mister Horse Sept 24 2006 21:38
"Quebec's separatist debate influenced many corporations to move their Canadian headquarters outside of the province of Quebec, mostly to Ontario."
As a CA student in Montreal, I can attest that the corporate exodus isn't long over but instead has been transformed into a silent factor in the decision-making of many companies. Unless a Canadian company is tapping the Quebec market, it would rather locate its facilities in Mississauga than Laval for language and political reasons. This is especially true of Canadian subsidiaries of American firms.
The government of Quebec has been trying to stimulate the growth of the private sector by having the lowest corporate tax rates in Canada for years (and ironically, the highest personal tax rates, but then again the population is immobile). Nevertheless, Montreal's unemployment rate remains around 11% while, in neighbouring Ontario, Toronto's is 6% and Ottawa's is 4%. Montreal also has the peculiar distinction of having an unemployment rate higher than the surrounding province (8.5% in the rest of Quebec), which isn't true for any other major city I have data for.
G. Csikos email address changed to preven spam - Royalguard11( Talk· Desk) 22:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Even if it's was true that corporations left Montreal for Toronto, it's a POV that the reason is the sovereignty movement. A lot of corporations left NYC for LA during the same period anyways. I realy don't understand why this line is still in a protected article. Anyways, does it realy deserve its place in a 10 lines summary of the economy of Quebec? I don't think so.
The "corporate exodus" is an important part of Quebec's financial history. It marked a turning point as to which companies occupied most of Quebec's financial space.-- Ramdrake 15:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
While the financial center of the US may have diversified away from being solely focused in NYC (where I grew up), New York is still the financial center of the country. Economic growth isn't a zero-sum game so LA's rise didn't challenge New York's dominance. Remember, two planes went into NYC's WTC and not LA's US Bank Tower.
In Canada, Montreal went from being the major commercial capital of the country to a secondary player within the span of a decade. The process was completely different and completely due to the sovereignty and Frenchification movements.
By the way, if you're going to make uninformed, asinine objections, at least sign them.
G. Csikos
Unfortunately the data don't support your notions about your home city.
Excusing Quebec's poverty compared to the rest of the continent by saying that the resource-based rural economies drag down the figure is simply wrong. First, Quebec is 80.4% urban, which is the urbanization rate every other major province ranks at (Alberta is 80.9% for example). Secondly, concentration of population in a single city isn't as important as what everyone is doing to make money. Look at Pennsylvania or North Carolina, states with populations the size of Ontario's but really no major cities to account for most of it (Philadelphia is smaller than Montreal!). The population in those states is spread out into decentralized suburban and exurban communities but they seem to be thriving nonetheless.
In the end I wouldn't call anemic 2% annual real GDP growth during good times economic prosperity when Ontario has been clocking in at 3% annually and the US at 4%. If you are familiar with how an exponential function works these sort of differences compounded over decades should frighten you. There is something wrong with Quebec's economy and each year Montreal is becoming more and more a has-been.
By the way, I actually knew two families in my hometown, Parsippany, NJ, who were from Montreal but yet I have had trouble finding anyone from New Jersey here in Montreal (besides fellow students at McGill). Think about it.
Have you ever actually gotten the opinions of someone from outside Quebec or do you just enjoy sitting in an echo chamber?
G. Csikos
You may believe whatever you want but what I have been demonstrating is that the economy of Quebec (and by extension Montreal) is chronically underperforming its potential. Real GDP growth is half what it should be and unemployment is chronically high (high unionization has a lot to do with this too). Quebec has no excuse for not doing at least as well as Ontario.
All this sluggishness is in the presence of extensive fiscal stimulus that would anywhere else be the genesis of a frenzied, inflation-causing boom. Consequently there must be a dragging force on the economy and it isn't hard to conclude that separatism and the discouragment of the use of English in business are the causes.
These two factors are the obvious differences between Quebec and its counterparts in Canada and the US. Moreover, I know for a fact professionally that these two issues have discouraged investment in the province. I invite you to explain this dragging force otherwise.
While the overt exodus is over, companies now avoid Quebec from the get go.
G. Csikos
You hide behind privacy. Ramdrake, for instance, gives enough of his personal details (gosh, a real name!) so that I know where he's coming from (a Montrealer working in the IT field). You on the otherhand are an unknown.
Anyway, I never blamed Bill 101 or Bill 22 wholesale for causing Quebec's economic woes but rather a general hostility towards the English language established since the rise of the separatist movement. Keeping the public sphere French is one thing but preventing firms from conducting internal communication in English is another. It's both counterproductive economically (by impoverishing Quebec) and linguistically.
In fact, linguists (read Language Death by David Crystal) know that the only way for a minority language to survive in the face of economic and numerical dominance is bilingualism. The alternative is to watch the minority language shrink in influence to the point where the young of the next generation completely drop their mother tongue in favor of the dominant language.
Back to your lack of economic insight. No, US investments in Mexico have different origins: low costs and the tapping of a market numbering over 100 million. In fact the populations of Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries make it enough of an incentive for Americans to learn Spanish (which most people take while in high school).
The situation for Quebec is different. First, Quebec isn't so poor that American firms can't wait to open up a new office or factory because the labor is so cheap. It may get that way eventually though. Second, Quebec's population is small and will stagnate over the next century. Consequently, Quebec has to actively attract investment to receive it.
No, exports, being mostly of services rather than goods, aren't really affected by the security changes. Again, BC's and Ontario's economies faced the same currency pressures as Quebec's and yet they grew by 3.8% and 3.1%, respectively, last year. Real GDP growth in Quebec came in at 2.4% instead. Because, as I mentioned before, Quebec's fiscal policy is more pro-business than even Alberta's, there exists a major dragging force which I know from experience to be related to linguistic and political nationalism.
Right now Quebec's GDP per capita is 68% of the US's. If the US grows at an average of 3% annually (4% during expansions, 0-2% for weaker years) for the next 35 years, real GDP will be 2.8 times today's value. If Quebec's rate of growth remains at an average 1.5% for the same amount of time its GDP will be 1.7 times today's value.
That means in 2041 Quebec's GDP per capita will be 41% of the US's. How's that for disparity? For the sake of Quebec's future this dragging force on the economy must be removed.
I'm done proving your statements to be nothing more than hand-waving. Since you're incapable of doing any sort of economic analysis yourself to disprove me, I have better things to do than be concerned as to what is being presented about Quebec here on Wikipedia. Distort reality if you like but you have to step outside eventually.
G. Csikos, 10 November 2006
Of course the 4% growth is 4% growth in GDP per capita (and real GDP per capita at that). Take an economics class.
G. Csikos, 6 January 2007
Is it always the same person(s) who come in here almost every day now and either blank out the article or "remake it into a stub"? How controversial can the subject be to deserve that????-- Ramdrake 17:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Quebec is not "the second-largest [province] in Canada". It is THE largest and by far, being one and a half times the size of the closest runner-up which is Ontario. The only Canadian jurisdiction larger than Quebec is the Territory of Nunavut. But it is not a province.
Someone added "english" to the official languages. English is not an official language of Québec, so I deleted it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.68.135.219 ( talk • contribs) .
True. Quebec declared French as its official language. HOWEVER, I think the article should mention that English and French are both constitutional (de jure) languages of Quebec (and Manitoba and New Brunswick). That means that all citizens are entitled to services in either French or English, and that all laws must be written in both languages. The same is not true of Ontario, for examples, where laws may be written in English only, and the government is not bound to serve you in French (though in practice it does in many bilingual areas). 69.156.27.118 01:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I made a minor edit that led to deletion of an entire paragraph that then led to reading the entire article. Frankly, it is a hodge podge of assorted claims mixed with some documented facts that together is far from being part of an encyclopedic work. It will be a sizeable job to get this in proper factual format and will require much collaboration. I removed this because it is factually wrong and/or misrepresented, plus it lacks context and fluidity within the article:
Lionel GM 16:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I have also removed the following paragraph as it is not relevant to Quebec and has no sources provided:
Lionel GM 16:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Is this vandalism? I don't really know how / don't have the time to look into how to deal with it right now, but last I checked Quebec is a province in Ontario, not a country.
In french, it's a Nation, which differs from English meaning of Nation.
By area, Quebec is the largest province in Canada: only the territory of Nunavut is larger - is it me or is this badly worded? shouldn't it read 'By area, Quebec is the second largest province in Canada: only the territory of Nunavut is larger'
I removed the line: after the 1980s, the population of the rival British colonies to the south had surpassed 1 million, compared to barely 60,000 for New France. This was the first line under "Fall of New France". If anyone knows where it belongs, then edit and add again. Gary Joseph 07:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay people. This site is a disgrace. School children doing their research on Quebec are going to think it's like Iraq or Afghanistan here (no insults intended to Iraqis or Afghanis).
Lets get a decent article together here. This is an encyclopedia entry, not a political discussion forum.
Lets start by cleaning up the intro. It's too long. The intro mentions the Caribbean Sea. That's not relevant to Quebec.
Lets keep it short an focused. Look at the entries for France and Ontario, and lets model this page on that. History should be way, way down the list. Every single country or province (take your pick) has history way down on the list. You guys might care about the Patriotes and the War Measures Act, but 99.9% of the people coming here will be from China/India/USA. You need to tell the reader what they want to know, not try to influence them to your way of political thinking. People here seem to have trouble with that. Users won't give a fig about the petty fights between the French and English. If you want to rant about the inevitable march of history and list petty grievances , go to www.marxist.org or www.anglosphere.com.
The written style here is atrocious. Do any of you know how to write? If you do not know how to write good standard English, stick to editing the French site. No offense, but I wouldn't dream of editing the French wiki site with my French. Please extend the same courtesy here.
Let's try this :
Quebec (Québec in French) (pronounced [kʰwəˈbɛk] or [kʰəˈbɛk] in English and [kebɛk] in French) is the largest and second most populous province in Canada. It is the only Canadian province with a French-speaking majority and whose only official language is French.
Quebec is bordered by the province of Ontario, James Bay and Hudson Bay to the west; by Hudson Strait and Ungava Bay to the North; by the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and the provinces of New Brunswick and Newfoundland and Labrador to the east; and by the United States (the states of New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine) to the south. Quebec's capital is Quebec City and its largest city is Montreal.
Most of Quebec's population resides in cities like these on the banks of the Saint Lawrence River. The northern portion of the province is sparsely populated, but houses vast stores of hydro-electicity, forestry products, and mineral resources that drive Quebec's principal industries. More recently, information and communication technologies, aerospace, biotechnology, and health industries have replaced traditional textile and manufacturing industries.
Quebec was carved out of New France as a colony under the British Regime in 1763. It became a founding province of the Canadian Confederation in 1867. The "Québécois" have their own cultural identity, with a flourishing secular French-speaking culture. As a result, Quebec often goes its own way politically, exercising limited autonomy in taxation, immigration, foreign relations, language and culture. It also has a strong democratic independence movement.
There. That sounds pretty neutral.
(Note: Garry, I like your text above. Pretty neutral yes. Suggestion however, could be written: "The nation-State of Quebec (Québec in French) (pronounced [kʰwəˈbɛk] or [kʰəˈbɛk] in English and [kebɛk] in French) is the largest and second most populous province in Canada" since "nation-State" is becoming the correct real definition for Quebec within Canada / Thanks for your great job, Garry).
that's because we(in quebec) were given the state of nation few days ago, however, the meaning in french is different: a nation is a group of people with shared language, history and cultural belief. in english, as you said, if mostly refers to a country.
Oh and yeas this is terribly biased, I however thkink it still should include as much info about Québec as possible... even if some people think the only 3 countrys in the world are india usa and china... canadians and quebecers still use Wikipedia as a reference and could easily be tricked... both frenchs and english constantly bias this page to make them look cooler. english often remove parts in which they were guiolty while frenchs try to place those in evidence.. wikipedia needs some sort of system so people that really know what they're talking about get edit priority... OpsY 07:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
YAY for article protection! Thanks Samir! -- dragfyre 22:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's sockpuppet vandalism per se, but I noted a confusing trail of inappropriate edits by Dalent and have reverted the article as left by Royalguard11 EDIT: I should clarify, the edits were vandalistic in nature. Chang E 15:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
"Quebec's separatist debate has influenced many corporations to move their Canadian headquarters from Montreal to Toronto."
A recent edit states that La Marseillaise is considered an unofficial anthem of Quebec. I've lived in Montreal my whole life and while I've heard Gens du Pays sung any number of times, I doubt most people I know could recite even the first few lines of La Marseillaise. So I think that the statement is wrong, and I'm inclined to revert, unless someone can back it up. -- Nephtes 15:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I flagged the description of the economy as lacking requisite balance. This issue must be resolved.
G. Csikos
Update the parliament agreed that Quebec is a Nation inside Canada.
Updates should follow
No, Qubec hasn't separated yet, and no the bill hasn't totally passed yet. There are two votes in commons, followed by two votes in the Senate, followed by Royal Assente. Everything buy crap passes the first vote in the house. - Royalguard11( Talk· Desk· Review Me!) 22:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I placed the motion in the history section "PQ and the constitutional crisis". I thing we should leave the motion as is and not include any interpretations (such as Québécois include/doesn't include all people of Quebec since there are different POVs on this issue) --Zorxd 00:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
While I'm certain that Osgoodlawyer had no ill intent whatsoever in adding italics to this article's Province or Territory of Canada infobox, in doing so he or she caused many links therein to break. Based on the sources cited above in Why not Québec? and the Manual of Style, it would appear to be more appropriate to simply use "Quebec" throughout the article unless speaking specifically about the province's name in French. However, this assumes that the spelling "Québec" is not considered current in English. As the only printed dictionary I have at hand is a Merriam-Webster from 1977, I thought it might be useful to double-check with others that Québec is still considered a non-English spelling. Both Merriam-Webster Online and Encyclopaedia Britannica Online appear to consider "Quebec" the only valid English spelling. I'd hate to spark an edit war over this, especially since personally I use "Québec;" I simply want to repair the broken links in the best way possible. Chang E 21:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
So sad to see how people talk about Quebec; as if everything was beautiful and as if Canada was a good country respecting everyone. But when it comes on talking about Quebec French heritage, and Quebec's place within Canada, that's when we notice that Canada is not so good. The English assimilation attempts are still widely popular among the Canada's population. Quebec bashing is omnipresent everywhere, and even in this article. Quebec's political position is always diminished in order to amplify that of Canada, and to give the idea that Canada is good and that Quebeckers are always complaining about everything. I am a French Canadian federalist, but since I moved outside Quebec, I started off doubting about it... Why should Quebeckers live with people who proclaim multiculturalism, but who try to get French Canadians assimilated to their own way of thinking??? What's the point of sticking to Canada when you are not even able to live in French outside of Quebec, to get the core of your culture respected??? Oh yeah!!! Canada is bilingual... but what people don't say is that there's a fence that is continually being built up around Quebec; and then after a referendum, English Canadians ask themselves: "What's wrong with them?"... with them... not with us... with them...?!?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.102.40.14 ( talk) 01:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
I understand the point that was set out by the above user, and I agree with him. That is to say that both replies to that message are exactly demonstrating what is indeed disputed about. Both messages imply a strong English Canadian culture trait, which is that of sticking to writings whereas the French Canadian culture imply a more opened discussion and debate relating to what can be understood either equally by writings or by natural and personal sense of perception. It is a matter of not sticking to the sole commitment to writings; because in the French Canadian culture those writings are also the result of an arbitrary way of thinking that comes from the head of someone as any other thoughts that are not published; no matter the time it took to find out a conclusion and no matter how much it has cost to find it out. In that perspective, all researches, even those that are not in books, are as good as any published researches. They are references! But anyway, I guess that to understand that way of thinking, some people would need a written statement published by a famous person...-- Kilyu 05:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, on my french canadian point of view, the point is that each and every reference is as valid as any other ones as long as something indicates the origin. And someone's head is also good because studies also comes from heads as it was mentionned above... the sole difference is the depth at which the research was made, and so the credibility of the statements. However that fact doesn't mean that what comes from a single head or from unknown references is wrong and that it should be rejected... By the way, I'm a Quebecker who studied in a french-speaking university, and I can assert that each and every reference (no matter the form, the length, the origin, etc.) is as good as any other ones if that reference is indicated. That has nothing to be related with the artistic side of creation... these are two different things. One is about referencing one's statements, and the other one about archiving one's creations. In other words, archives may be used for referencing; and depending on the references you use, your assertions will get more or less credibility towards a subject. But as I said above, that doesn't mean that someone may reject one's statements on the sole basis that according to that person the references are not in-depth enough. You may validate and invalidate one's assertions with any other references though. Therefore, that means that you have to assume that what is said is right until you get a denying reference. But above all, you can also use your own judgement, and "read between the lines" in order to get the real meaning that is given by a person. Wording is only one way among others to express one's thoughts. -- Marc Doc 00:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to see that discussion in an English website... at last things are perhaps changing for the best... that was my opinion. But if you want more references, read the references linked to the French version of this article or any other manifestos and studies that are published in French... you will get the references you are looking for. And don't tell me that you don't speak French, that is not a valid answer... those references are as valid as the English references... even if you don't understand it. You're in Canada, in a bilingual country... perhaps you should start off learning French if you don't already speak it... that was my opinion as well.-- Dafjo 05:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Dafjo, Kilyu, go ahead and craft a section with your references! This is your Wikipedia too, after all :) I personally haven't time to, and not being a student of contemporary Canadian history, don't feel I have a firm enough grounding in the myriad issues. I'm in no position to craft anything from a NPOV on this particular topic in intra-Canadian relations. Chang E 13:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or self-respect, but as many French Canadians may think, English Canadians might be less cultured than French Canadians because of that tendency to reject all opinions and facts that are not referred in books or other written documents. Without generalizing that to everyone, watch TV if you want to know more about the way French Canadian debates and discussions are processed, and you will notice a huge discrepancy with that of English Canadian society. The cultural frame is much more organized and defined than that of the English Canadian society. In that case, you should try to at least keep in mind that even if we are in the same country both sides are aften poles apart from each other on many subjects.
I propose we remove the semiprotection. It didn't work anyway, as the vandal had a bunch of sleeper accounts which could edit regardless. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
He has finally made a mistake! He forgot to login and we now know where he's coming from. Traceroot on the IP 207.115.103.54 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) reveals that the guy is actually from Montreal, Quebec. RDNS and Whois have provided nothing else on the address. If anyone can find anything out (shared IP or not, proxy server, anything) it would be nice to know (for blocking reasons). I do know that it's not an OP (scanned with nmap) and that it's owned by Quebec company "Openface Inc." (openface.ca). - Royalguard11( Talk· Review Me!) 03:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the disambiguation wording. I think this is important. First, the article deals primarily with the current territory of Quebec, but at one time it included parts of Ohio, Missouri, etc. A person referring to this article looking for that might think that they'd found the right one, when in fact they hadn't. A second thing is that a person might read "in Quebec" somewhere, and on some occasions it could be the city, but the person might not realize that, and therefore might not bother looking at the disambiguation page, thinking they'd found the right page. I am not trying to put the entire disambiguation page here, I am just trying to prevent people from thinking they've found the page they're looking for when they might not know enough about the meanings of Quebec to know they haven't. Joeldl 17:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to quibble slightly with this change [8] to the disambiguation wording. For the province of Quebec (1763-1791), it used to say "see also" instead of "see". This article also contains information about the historical entity, but only the part of it that is now in Quebec. So "see also" is more appropriate than "see". Joeldl 08:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more informative to have the top census metropolitan areas instead of the top municipalities? I think it makes sense to have more cities and fewer places like Laval or Longueuil. Also, it's more meaningful to say that Montreal has a population of 3.5 million, since this is what matters if you're going to compare Montreal to other cities. A metropolitan area gives a better idea of the importance of a city than the population of the core city does. Joeldl 02:55, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This conversation started at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Three other uses.
In this case I think the fact that the name Province of Quebec (and not just Quebec) is identical makes it especially confusing. The Quebec Act extending Quebec into the area west of the Appalachians was one of the Intolerable Acts that contributed to the American War of Independence. Since Ohio had not been settled by the British at that time, it is understandable that it might only have played a minor role in the history of Ohio as seen by Ohioans. Nonetheless, it is part of their history. And it was definitely significant in the history of the United States. In fact, that extension was probably more significant in the history of the US than it was in the history of French Canada. Joeldl 08:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)