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i suggest this be a talk page for Qana the village in general.
Boud 16:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Are these conflicts "with Hezbollah" are conflicts "with Lebanon"?
Israel claims that they are conflicts with Hezbollah. But Hezbollah is a political party, part of the government coalition in power in Lebanon. So that makes it a conflict with the Lebanese government, and hence against "Lebanon", where "Lebanon" means the state of Lebanon. Since Israel is also killing civilians in Lebanon and destroying the infrastructure of the whole country - surely not all of this is controlled by Hezbollah - ports, roads, airport, i don't see how using the Israel description can be NPOV. Just because a lot of the mainstream media are repeating the term does not make it WP:NPOV.
Since someone wants to use this term, i've put:
This way it properly attributes the claim that the war is only against Hezbollah and not against Lebanon to the source of the claim (Israeli spokespeople).
Boud 16:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Try looking at these two maps and then tell me if this is a war against a political party with an armed wing or against an entire country: http://maps.samidoun.org/Infrastructure_map_12-24.jpg http://maps.samidoun.org/lebanon_map_July_12-29.jpg
Boud 16:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
⌡ 18:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
It is definitely a conflict with Lebanon as civilian infrastructure was immediately targetted, including roads, bridges, banks, airports, Lebanese Army bases, UN building, and a dairy company. These are incidents far away from 'Hezbollah fighting'. Including areas claimed to be sites of Hezbollah fighting would be civilian towns, apartments and shelters. Furthermore, Israel has killed several official Lebanese soldiers with Lebanon still sitting out of this for peace's sake. More Lebanese soldiers have been killed by Israel since this new conflict started than the initial attack by Hezbollah which captured the two soldiers.
Ruthfulbarbarity 22:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"Hezbollah is a political party"
Actually, Hezbollah has many faces; read the article about them.
The killing of Lebanese civilians is cited as accidental (although my personal view is that they don't really care; they call it an accident but not a tragedy, but that's not based on facts. That said, they're just defending their people at any cost, which is fair enough in "real terms" (i.e. the world's screwed up), not like the UK and Germany didn't kill each other's civilians much in WW2!).
Also the damage to infrastructure is to stop Hezbollah's ESO from attacking them further, not that this seems to be working...
"Israel has killed several official Lebanese soldiers with Lebanon still sitting out of this for peace's sake."
IMHO Lebanon is "sitting out of this" because they're a very small country and Hezbollah's military strength is likely greater.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewyzewun ( talk • contribs) 23:44, 31 July 2006
i propose we stick to: caused civilian deaths during military operations in Lebanon ( Operation Grapes of Wrath and the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict) just slightly NPOV-ed further from that suggested by Yellow Up. If we want to add anything about this being a conflict with Hezbollah, then IMHO that must be attributed as a POV, but IMHO it would be better that that be done in the individual articles on the two incidents. Boud 22:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please,...Not even the Israeli deny having caused the deaths, they just say it an accident. This is an example of being biased by employing an overly NPOV 'objective' method of describing the events 84.192.133.75 ( talk) 17:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is there such a long statement from Israel, one of the participants in the conflict? In order to present a balanced view, one must then also include comments made by the Lebanese government, which would make this page unnecessarily wrong. Anyone interested in the details can check out the link to the 2006 Qana bombings. Arnob 00:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an article about the village, not about the two tragedies that it has encountered. Let's keep it that way. This article links to two sub-articles: 1996 shelling of Qana and 2006 Qana airstrike. That's where the material about those two tragedies should be. Please don't expand the text following the links further. All those arguments for and against are already in those articles. Thomas Blomberg 00:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Good idea Thomas -- it was getting a little ridiculous! Cheers =) AWN AWN2 01:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed these because these statements are unsourced and apparently in disagreement with academically established information concerning Cana. Who are the "some" who believe that Qana is Cana? Unless we can find a notable primary source, it does not belong in the article. If it doesn't belong in the article, neither do rebuttal statements concerning the supposed location of Cana. The Crow 16:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the Red Cross ( http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/Lebanon-news-300706!OpenDocument) the number dead in Qana '06 is 28 total, 19 children. This clashes with the widely reported figures of 56 or 57 total. I would have changed this article to reflect the Red Cross's numbers but I am too new to Wikipedia (just got an account and just don't have the time today to read through all the rules of posting carefully) and don't want to start touching up articles, especially on such heated subjects. Maybe some of you can chime in and make the changes? I believe they are warranted because from what I can gather the 56 number was some initial number come up with in haste, and the 28 numbers are the official-thus-far tally from the ICRC. Counting the dead for scorekeeping is idiotic but everyone does it, so it's best to be accurate. -- Dahno1 20:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The addition of "13 missing" if added to the 28 or 29 killed gets us alot nearer the original estimate - antiSemitism at work.
i removed:
This sort of stuff should be NPOVed on the 2006 Qana airstrike page (if the author takes it seriously).
Boud 15:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
More antiSemitism at work. How dare you edit a Jewish statement.
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All the last sections are a straight copy and paste from localiban. Which I think breaks the rules and I am going to remove. Or at least rewrite. Maybe keep the altitude? Is the population estimate better than the 10,000 given in the earlier text? questions, questions Padres Hana ( talk) 21:02, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Qana article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
To-do list for Qana: |
See also:
i suggest this be a talk page for Qana the village in general.
Boud 16:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Are these conflicts "with Hezbollah" are conflicts "with Lebanon"?
Israel claims that they are conflicts with Hezbollah. But Hezbollah is a political party, part of the government coalition in power in Lebanon. So that makes it a conflict with the Lebanese government, and hence against "Lebanon", where "Lebanon" means the state of Lebanon. Since Israel is also killing civilians in Lebanon and destroying the infrastructure of the whole country - surely not all of this is controlled by Hezbollah - ports, roads, airport, i don't see how using the Israel description can be NPOV. Just because a lot of the mainstream media are repeating the term does not make it WP:NPOV.
Since someone wants to use this term, i've put:
This way it properly attributes the claim that the war is only against Hezbollah and not against Lebanon to the source of the claim (Israeli spokespeople).
Boud 16:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Try looking at these two maps and then tell me if this is a war against a political party with an armed wing or against an entire country: http://maps.samidoun.org/Infrastructure_map_12-24.jpg http://maps.samidoun.org/lebanon_map_July_12-29.jpg
Boud 16:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
⌡ 18:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
It is definitely a conflict with Lebanon as civilian infrastructure was immediately targetted, including roads, bridges, banks, airports, Lebanese Army bases, UN building, and a dairy company. These are incidents far away from 'Hezbollah fighting'. Including areas claimed to be sites of Hezbollah fighting would be civilian towns, apartments and shelters. Furthermore, Israel has killed several official Lebanese soldiers with Lebanon still sitting out of this for peace's sake. More Lebanese soldiers have been killed by Israel since this new conflict started than the initial attack by Hezbollah which captured the two soldiers.
Ruthfulbarbarity 22:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"Hezbollah is a political party"
Actually, Hezbollah has many faces; read the article about them.
The killing of Lebanese civilians is cited as accidental (although my personal view is that they don't really care; they call it an accident but not a tragedy, but that's not based on facts. That said, they're just defending their people at any cost, which is fair enough in "real terms" (i.e. the world's screwed up), not like the UK and Germany didn't kill each other's civilians much in WW2!).
Also the damage to infrastructure is to stop Hezbollah's ESO from attacking them further, not that this seems to be working...
"Israel has killed several official Lebanese soldiers with Lebanon still sitting out of this for peace's sake."
IMHO Lebanon is "sitting out of this" because they're a very small country and Hezbollah's military strength is likely greater.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewyzewun ( talk • contribs) 23:44, 31 July 2006
i propose we stick to: caused civilian deaths during military operations in Lebanon ( Operation Grapes of Wrath and the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict) just slightly NPOV-ed further from that suggested by Yellow Up. If we want to add anything about this being a conflict with Hezbollah, then IMHO that must be attributed as a POV, but IMHO it would be better that that be done in the individual articles on the two incidents. Boud 22:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please,...Not even the Israeli deny having caused the deaths, they just say it an accident. This is an example of being biased by employing an overly NPOV 'objective' method of describing the events 84.192.133.75 ( talk) 17:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is there such a long statement from Israel, one of the participants in the conflict? In order to present a balanced view, one must then also include comments made by the Lebanese government, which would make this page unnecessarily wrong. Anyone interested in the details can check out the link to the 2006 Qana bombings. Arnob 00:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an article about the village, not about the two tragedies that it has encountered. Let's keep it that way. This article links to two sub-articles: 1996 shelling of Qana and 2006 Qana airstrike. That's where the material about those two tragedies should be. Please don't expand the text following the links further. All those arguments for and against are already in those articles. Thomas Blomberg 00:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Good idea Thomas -- it was getting a little ridiculous! Cheers =) AWN AWN2 01:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed these because these statements are unsourced and apparently in disagreement with academically established information concerning Cana. Who are the "some" who believe that Qana is Cana? Unless we can find a notable primary source, it does not belong in the article. If it doesn't belong in the article, neither do rebuttal statements concerning the supposed location of Cana. The Crow 16:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the Red Cross ( http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/Lebanon-news-300706!OpenDocument) the number dead in Qana '06 is 28 total, 19 children. This clashes with the widely reported figures of 56 or 57 total. I would have changed this article to reflect the Red Cross's numbers but I am too new to Wikipedia (just got an account and just don't have the time today to read through all the rules of posting carefully) and don't want to start touching up articles, especially on such heated subjects. Maybe some of you can chime in and make the changes? I believe they are warranted because from what I can gather the 56 number was some initial number come up with in haste, and the 28 numbers are the official-thus-far tally from the ICRC. Counting the dead for scorekeeping is idiotic but everyone does it, so it's best to be accurate. -- Dahno1 20:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The addition of "13 missing" if added to the 28 or 29 killed gets us alot nearer the original estimate - antiSemitism at work.
i removed:
This sort of stuff should be NPOVed on the 2006 Qana airstrike page (if the author takes it seriously).
Boud 15:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
More antiSemitism at work. How dare you edit a Jewish statement.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Qana. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:40, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
All the last sections are a straight copy and paste from localiban. Which I think breaks the rules and I am going to remove. Or at least rewrite. Maybe keep the altitude? Is the population estimate better than the 10,000 given in the earlier text? questions, questions Padres Hana ( talk) 21:02, 12 October 2022 (UTC)