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At least part of "Saloon or lounge" section seems to be copied from History of Pubs/Bars in England. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 01:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
The second sentence here says, "It had unfurnished floorboards,". Should that be "unfinished" floorboards, or is this some British term for floorboards without furniture? Which I doubt. Venqax ( talk) 21:52, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
This article is a bit of a mishmash of UK pub culture, and pubs in other countries. Would it work better as a split? Crookesmoor ( talk) 15:58, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
The Public House was a British, specifically English, concept. This is explained in detail in Michael Jackson's book on the history of beer. Unfortunately I no longer have a copy so I can't give proper citations. Without citations I can't put the information on the wiki page. The public house was originally a private residence that brewed ale, Ale was sold in a public room. This room became the Public Bar. Gentry were entertained in the brewer's own living room. That is the origin of the saloon bar. Of course things have changed greatly over the last 600 years. Nevertheless, a Public House is a private house that is partly open to the public.
The consequence is the pub is British. There are bars World-wide and some have taken the name 'Pub'. Also British people have taken the Pub concept overseas. This should explain why the article concentrates so heavily on British Pubs. OrewaTel ( talk) 23:12, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
In his 1952 essay The Dour Drinkers of Glasgow, Hugh MacDiarmid claims "The fact is, of course, as the very term 'public house' shows, that the condition of the licence obliges the licence holder to have his place at the disposal of citizens at all times - not necessarily for drinking at all; a citizen is entitled to have the use of these places whenever he wants if only to use the lavatory or shelter from the weather, or read his newspaper, or meet a friend". If this is true, it would be worthy of inclusion. Is it, or was it, in Scotland or more widely? Mutt Lunker ( talk) 22:59, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
This article uses "saloon" and some dictionaries and the article for bar list it as "saloon bar".
In UK, they use both saloon and saloon bar to refer to the same "special" bar in a pub. [1]
In USA, they only saloon and refer to the Wild West saloons.
Was "saloon bar" shortened as "saloon" at some point in time? When and where did this shortening happened?
George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 12:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
References
Back in 2009 someone wrote in a forum:
In the eighties, there were still quite a few pubs with public bars and saloon bars. The saloon bar was for visitors, and the public bar was for locals. Even then there was a lot of overspill. The serving area would cross both rooms. There would be seperate (sic) external entrances to each bar, often right next to each other. The public bar charged slightly less than the saloon bar, but not if you just walked in there - it was a ‘local pub for local people.’ Still, when ordering drinks you’d have to remind a new bar person which side of the bar you were ordering from.
There are still a few pubs that have a similar division, but they’re very rare indeed - I’ve only been to two such pubs in the last ten years. Most pubs still have separate entrances for the public and saloon bars, but they’re not treated as such - usually one will be permanently shut.
I only knew one place that still had a ladies’ bar, and that was a private members’ club; it was a place for woman to go, and no men were allowed at all.Women were only allowed in the main bar in about 1978 or so in that club. A few pubs still had ‘ladies’ signs up that did not refer to places you’d go to pee (they did have their own ladies’ toilets, but that was an adjunct to the ladies’ bar).
In Orwell’s time, the saloon bar would have been for the gentry and the public bar for everyone else. The women would not have drunk with the men in any but the most disreputable establishment.
And someone from Ireland replied that they had both layouts but he didn't think the "traditional" layout was in danger at all.
It is 2022 now, 13 years have gone by. If that division had practically disappeared back then, I guess the demise of this "layout" was completed long time ago in England. What happened in Ireland?
Source: https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-british-pub-what-are-the-public-bar-saloon-bar-etc/523109/10
George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 12:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
The Wantage law code of Æthelred the Unready proscribes fines for breaching the peace at meetings held in alehouses.
The cited source is a book, so not easily verified. Did the law code proscribe (forbid) fines or prescribe (set) fines for breaching the peace? The former claim seems dubious to say the least, unless the implication is that special exceptions were made for disturbances created by group meetings. — Nonstopdrivel ( talk) 17:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
What were the Pub opening times on Christmas Day 1960s onwards, I seem to remember that there were hours of 12am to 2am and 7pm to 10:30pm i.e. Sunday Hours at that time and all pubs had to abide to them hours, and this ended around 1974ish I think when it was then altered to a staggered opening times system e.g. 11am to 1am or even earlier and pubs did not open at all on the Christmas Evening. Terryog1952 ( talk) 14:06, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
"...the tavern was one of the traditional centers of social and political life before 1789" What happened in 1789? Was there some big event that a non-Brit wouldn't know about? No reference.```` Venqax ( talk) 19:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Pub article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 |
Pub is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | ||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
At least part of "Saloon or lounge" section seems to be copied from History of Pubs/Bars in England. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 01:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
The second sentence here says, "It had unfurnished floorboards,". Should that be "unfinished" floorboards, or is this some British term for floorboards without furniture? Which I doubt. Venqax ( talk) 21:52, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
This article is a bit of a mishmash of UK pub culture, and pubs in other countries. Would it work better as a split? Crookesmoor ( talk) 15:58, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
The Public House was a British, specifically English, concept. This is explained in detail in Michael Jackson's book on the history of beer. Unfortunately I no longer have a copy so I can't give proper citations. Without citations I can't put the information on the wiki page. The public house was originally a private residence that brewed ale, Ale was sold in a public room. This room became the Public Bar. Gentry were entertained in the brewer's own living room. That is the origin of the saloon bar. Of course things have changed greatly over the last 600 years. Nevertheless, a Public House is a private house that is partly open to the public.
The consequence is the pub is British. There are bars World-wide and some have taken the name 'Pub'. Also British people have taken the Pub concept overseas. This should explain why the article concentrates so heavily on British Pubs. OrewaTel ( talk) 23:12, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
In his 1952 essay The Dour Drinkers of Glasgow, Hugh MacDiarmid claims "The fact is, of course, as the very term 'public house' shows, that the condition of the licence obliges the licence holder to have his place at the disposal of citizens at all times - not necessarily for drinking at all; a citizen is entitled to have the use of these places whenever he wants if only to use the lavatory or shelter from the weather, or read his newspaper, or meet a friend". If this is true, it would be worthy of inclusion. Is it, or was it, in Scotland or more widely? Mutt Lunker ( talk) 22:59, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
This article uses "saloon" and some dictionaries and the article for bar list it as "saloon bar".
In UK, they use both saloon and saloon bar to refer to the same "special" bar in a pub. [1]
In USA, they only saloon and refer to the Wild West saloons.
Was "saloon bar" shortened as "saloon" at some point in time? When and where did this shortening happened?
George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 12:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
References
Back in 2009 someone wrote in a forum:
In the eighties, there were still quite a few pubs with public bars and saloon bars. The saloon bar was for visitors, and the public bar was for locals. Even then there was a lot of overspill. The serving area would cross both rooms. There would be seperate (sic) external entrances to each bar, often right next to each other. The public bar charged slightly less than the saloon bar, but not if you just walked in there - it was a ‘local pub for local people.’ Still, when ordering drinks you’d have to remind a new bar person which side of the bar you were ordering from.
There are still a few pubs that have a similar division, but they’re very rare indeed - I’ve only been to two such pubs in the last ten years. Most pubs still have separate entrances for the public and saloon bars, but they’re not treated as such - usually one will be permanently shut.
I only knew one place that still had a ladies’ bar, and that was a private members’ club; it was a place for woman to go, and no men were allowed at all.Women were only allowed in the main bar in about 1978 or so in that club. A few pubs still had ‘ladies’ signs up that did not refer to places you’d go to pee (they did have their own ladies’ toilets, but that was an adjunct to the ladies’ bar).
In Orwell’s time, the saloon bar would have been for the gentry and the public bar for everyone else. The women would not have drunk with the men in any but the most disreputable establishment.
And someone from Ireland replied that they had both layouts but he didn't think the "traditional" layout was in danger at all.
It is 2022 now, 13 years have gone by. If that division had practically disappeared back then, I guess the demise of this "layout" was completed long time ago in England. What happened in Ireland?
Source: https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-british-pub-what-are-the-public-bar-saloon-bar-etc/523109/10
George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 12:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
The Wantage law code of Æthelred the Unready proscribes fines for breaching the peace at meetings held in alehouses.
The cited source is a book, so not easily verified. Did the law code proscribe (forbid) fines or prescribe (set) fines for breaching the peace? The former claim seems dubious to say the least, unless the implication is that special exceptions were made for disturbances created by group meetings. — Nonstopdrivel ( talk) 17:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
What were the Pub opening times on Christmas Day 1960s onwards, I seem to remember that there were hours of 12am to 2am and 7pm to 10:30pm i.e. Sunday Hours at that time and all pubs had to abide to them hours, and this ended around 1974ish I think when it was then altered to a staggered opening times system e.g. 11am to 1am or even earlier and pubs did not open at all on the Christmas Evening. Terryog1952 ( talk) 14:06, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
"...the tavern was one of the traditional centers of social and political life before 1789" What happened in 1789? Was there some big event that a non-Brit wouldn't know about? No reference.```` Venqax ( talk) 19:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)