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On 6 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Ptolemy XII of Egypt. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
my name is Walid Osama. I wanted to start a particular discussion which revolves around the topic of King Ptolemy XII's illegitimacy. As you all know, he was believed to be the son of a concubine, and ascended to the throne when no lawful heir was available. I am surprised at how profound this point must be, as this means the last family of pharoahs were unlawfully crowned. I want to know what you all feel about this.
--Walid Osama 22:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)Walid Osama
This belif is compeltly false.
Also he had only 2 children by Cleopatra V, Cleopatra VI is Cleopatra V.
i can not belive that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.144.205.85 ( talk) 21:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no mention anywhere that the mother of Ptolemy XII was an Egyptian woman. That is a speculation by some modern authors. The fact that the Ptolemies were well known to inbreed with one another makes it highly unlikely that his mother was an Egyptian woman. For the Ptolemies incest was a dynastic signature which highlighted their singularity and above all, their power.
They also followed the matrilinear nature of succession, a system in which one belongs to one's mother's lineage; inheritance of property or titles was through the female line. If the mother of Ptolemy XII was not of Macedonian royal blood he wouldn't have been seen as having sufficient standing within the royal households be recognized as Ptolemy IX's heir.
As for the claim of 'bastard', the term wasn't used in the sense it is used today. The accusations of bastardy are very common in dynastic disputes of the Hellenistic period, one of the most common circumstance involves disputes over the succession between sons of different Ptolemaic mothers(i.e. ethnic Greek-Macedonian Princesses & Queens); Ogden christens these "amphimetric" disputes and argues that the Ptolemies resolve this problem through the institution of incestuous marriage, but in time, as different Ptolemaic princesses married multiple Ptolemaic kings, the problem essentially became resurrected through disputes between the families of different Ptolemaic sisters. This situation is unique amongst Ptolemaic heirs. While officially a son of Cleopatra Selene, the age data for other such princes suggests that Ptolemy XII was in fact the son of Cleopatra IV, sister of Ptolemy IX, born to Ptolemy IX before his accession. The decision by Cleopatra III to force a divorce between Ptolemy IX and Cleopatra IV (Justin 39.3 ~) is why he is known as the 'Bastard'. Cleopatra Selene later married Ptolemy X, and became the mother of Ptolemy XI. In these circumstances, there was a strong incentive for the partisans of Ptolemy X, including Cleopatra Selene to impugn the legitimacy of Ptolemy XII. [~Genealogy of the Ptolemaic House]
The Ptolemies believed that the "sister-born" was a prerequisite of legitimacy and for a Ptolemaic princess to be a recognized sister she must also have been a queen. The biological mother of Ptolemy XII had to have been in a relationship with Ptolemy IX and she also had to have had held sufficient standing within the royalty households for her son to be recognized as Ptolemy IX's heir. The only one who fits this is Cleopatra IV on all accounts:
The term doesn't necessarily mean his mother was of Egyptian origins since if she was not from the Ptolemaic bloodline, i.e. an illegitimate off spring of a 'foreigner', would not have held a high enough status to became a Ptolemy King or Queen of the Dynasty. ( Angar432 ( talk) 21:56, 19 May 2011 (UTC)).
I noticed that this article doesn't have footnote references of any kind. Something that should be fixed, but I don't know how to flag this article! Iprocomp ( talk) 06:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Down near the end, it says, "Then he had him escaped." I presume that this means that he either helped or at least allowed the man to escape, but it's not clear, and in any case, escape isn't used that way in English. I'd change it myself, but I'm not sure which way would be most accurate. JDZeff ( talk) 00:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
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When I uploaded the photo to the right, I had my doubts. The site CNG coins did not declare that its Ptolemy XII depicted, only that its a diademed head. I assumed its the head of Ptolemy XII, but after more reading, I find out that its Ptolemy I again, only a refined portrait. As for his actual photo on coins, it exist only on a series of Drachm (never tetradrachm). Those Drachms were minted in Paphos in Cyprus in 54 BC. A sample can be seen on the website of Boston art museum. This is the link Ptolemy XII.
Sadly, the museum does not allow us to use it. But the point is, the coin shown now in the infobox depicts Ptolemy I. The source for the confirmed photo of Ptolemy XII on the coin from the museum is here Portraits of the Ptolemies: Greek Kings as Egyptian Pharaohs by Paul Edmund Stanwick, University of Texas Press, page 225
I asked an experienced user (with photos copyrights) for advice ( User_talk:Nikkimaria#copyrights), and it seems that we cant use the photo from the website. -- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 23:06, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Attar-Aram syria: good God man, what are we waiting for! Let's add it to the article right away! Thanks for the wonderful find, it's an invaluable contribution to our encyclopedia. :) Pericles of Athens Talk 01:33, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
@ FunkMonk:. Hello friend, I was wondering if we can use the last photo from 1964 as a fair use. Is there any chance? Otherwise it has to be deleted from commons since it is not free.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 02:47, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
@ FunkMonk:. Hello. I found the photo in the original source finally. It is from 1904. The quality isnt great. But I uploaded it non the less and it is free now. As an admin in Wikimedia, is it possible that you delete the photo I uploaded from 1964?
As for the 1904 photo, the editors of this article have the freedom to cut and crop it...etc in order for it to be used here.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 13:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
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Will review the article within 7 days. -- MrClog ( talk) 20:30, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ptolemy I Soter which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 08:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
Ptolemy XII Auletes has been listed as one of the
History good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: May 19, 2019. ( Reviewed version). |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ptolemy XII Auletes article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Ptolemy XII Auletes received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Revisions succeeding
this version of this article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following source:
|
On 6 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Ptolemy XII of Egypt. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
my name is Walid Osama. I wanted to start a particular discussion which revolves around the topic of King Ptolemy XII's illegitimacy. As you all know, he was believed to be the son of a concubine, and ascended to the throne when no lawful heir was available. I am surprised at how profound this point must be, as this means the last family of pharoahs were unlawfully crowned. I want to know what you all feel about this.
--Walid Osama 22:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)Walid Osama
This belif is compeltly false.
Also he had only 2 children by Cleopatra V, Cleopatra VI is Cleopatra V.
i can not belive that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.144.205.85 ( talk) 21:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no mention anywhere that the mother of Ptolemy XII was an Egyptian woman. That is a speculation by some modern authors. The fact that the Ptolemies were well known to inbreed with one another makes it highly unlikely that his mother was an Egyptian woman. For the Ptolemies incest was a dynastic signature which highlighted their singularity and above all, their power.
They also followed the matrilinear nature of succession, a system in which one belongs to one's mother's lineage; inheritance of property or titles was through the female line. If the mother of Ptolemy XII was not of Macedonian royal blood he wouldn't have been seen as having sufficient standing within the royal households be recognized as Ptolemy IX's heir.
As for the claim of 'bastard', the term wasn't used in the sense it is used today. The accusations of bastardy are very common in dynastic disputes of the Hellenistic period, one of the most common circumstance involves disputes over the succession between sons of different Ptolemaic mothers(i.e. ethnic Greek-Macedonian Princesses & Queens); Ogden christens these "amphimetric" disputes and argues that the Ptolemies resolve this problem through the institution of incestuous marriage, but in time, as different Ptolemaic princesses married multiple Ptolemaic kings, the problem essentially became resurrected through disputes between the families of different Ptolemaic sisters. This situation is unique amongst Ptolemaic heirs. While officially a son of Cleopatra Selene, the age data for other such princes suggests that Ptolemy XII was in fact the son of Cleopatra IV, sister of Ptolemy IX, born to Ptolemy IX before his accession. The decision by Cleopatra III to force a divorce between Ptolemy IX and Cleopatra IV (Justin 39.3 ~) is why he is known as the 'Bastard'. Cleopatra Selene later married Ptolemy X, and became the mother of Ptolemy XI. In these circumstances, there was a strong incentive for the partisans of Ptolemy X, including Cleopatra Selene to impugn the legitimacy of Ptolemy XII. [~Genealogy of the Ptolemaic House]
The Ptolemies believed that the "sister-born" was a prerequisite of legitimacy and for a Ptolemaic princess to be a recognized sister she must also have been a queen. The biological mother of Ptolemy XII had to have been in a relationship with Ptolemy IX and she also had to have had held sufficient standing within the royalty households for her son to be recognized as Ptolemy IX's heir. The only one who fits this is Cleopatra IV on all accounts:
The term doesn't necessarily mean his mother was of Egyptian origins since if she was not from the Ptolemaic bloodline, i.e. an illegitimate off spring of a 'foreigner', would not have held a high enough status to became a Ptolemy King or Queen of the Dynasty. ( Angar432 ( talk) 21:56, 19 May 2011 (UTC)).
I noticed that this article doesn't have footnote references of any kind. Something that should be fixed, but I don't know how to flag this article! Iprocomp ( talk) 06:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Down near the end, it says, "Then he had him escaped." I presume that this means that he either helped or at least allowed the man to escape, but it's not clear, and in any case, escape isn't used that way in English. I'd change it myself, but I'm not sure which way would be most accurate. JDZeff ( talk) 00:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ptolemy XII Auletes. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:07, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
When I uploaded the photo to the right, I had my doubts. The site CNG coins did not declare that its Ptolemy XII depicted, only that its a diademed head. I assumed its the head of Ptolemy XII, but after more reading, I find out that its Ptolemy I again, only a refined portrait. As for his actual photo on coins, it exist only on a series of Drachm (never tetradrachm). Those Drachms were minted in Paphos in Cyprus in 54 BC. A sample can be seen on the website of Boston art museum. This is the link Ptolemy XII.
Sadly, the museum does not allow us to use it. But the point is, the coin shown now in the infobox depicts Ptolemy I. The source for the confirmed photo of Ptolemy XII on the coin from the museum is here Portraits of the Ptolemies: Greek Kings as Egyptian Pharaohs by Paul Edmund Stanwick, University of Texas Press, page 225
I asked an experienced user (with photos copyrights) for advice ( User_talk:Nikkimaria#copyrights), and it seems that we cant use the photo from the website. -- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 23:06, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Attar-Aram syria: good God man, what are we waiting for! Let's add it to the article right away! Thanks for the wonderful find, it's an invaluable contribution to our encyclopedia. :) Pericles of Athens Talk 01:33, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
@ FunkMonk:. Hello friend, I was wondering if we can use the last photo from 1964 as a fair use. Is there any chance? Otherwise it has to be deleted from commons since it is not free.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 02:47, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
@ FunkMonk:. Hello. I found the photo in the original source finally. It is from 1904. The quality isnt great. But I uploaded it non the less and it is free now. As an admin in Wikimedia, is it possible that you delete the photo I uploaded from 1964?
As for the 1904 photo, the editors of this article have the freedom to cut and crop it...etc in order for it to be used here.-- Attar-Aram syria ( talk) 13:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: MrClog ( talk · contribs) 20:30, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Will review the article within 7 days. -- MrClog ( talk) 20:30, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
|pp=
when there are multiple pages (including ranges), and |p=
when there is only one page.Now that all concerns above are addressed after the review was put on hold, the article has hereby succesfully passed its GA nomination. Congratulations! -- MrClog ( talk) 14:33, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ptolemy I Soter which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 08:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)