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Removed "However it is not currently listed as a " Foreign Terrorist Organization" by the United States of America." Criteria for said list includes "it must threaten...security of...United States of America." The IRA never has and in all possible certainty never will be a threat to the USA as it is the UK they are fighting against.
I have added "The USA does not classify the IRA/PIRA as an illegal organisation as it does not constitute a threat to the United States." Ste01 16:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
"Those McCartney family members and his fiancee were being used by the Bush adminstration, and most of the people in the U.S. knew it. Bcsurvivor 15:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)"
Folk, I suggest a permanent ban be imposed upon User talk:68.35.182.234, aka Bcsurvivor, aka Devin79 and indeed any other such editor who causes as much hassle on any article. I see absolutly no reason why we should be reasonable to unreasonable people. Fergananim 20:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that bc survivor is the same person as Devin79 in fairness. Jdorney 13:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I've an issue with this section:
"All levels of the IRA are entitled to send delegates to IRA General Army Conventions (GACs). The GAC is the IRA's supreme decision-making authority. Before 1969, GACs met regularly. Since 1970 they have become less frequent, owing to the difficulty in organising such a large gathering of what is an illegal organisation."
From reading this it is saying that the IRA is the same organisation as the PIRA- a problem noticeable throughout the entire article, is there a reason for the repeated use of 'IRA' when 'PIRA' is being referred to?
The assertion the IRA had always enjoyed large meetings isnt accurate anyway. The IRA has always had trouble meeting in GAC, and frequently in the past ((1939-1945)/(1952-1964) in particular) the majority of its members have been on the run, including the Army council. Plus by 1969 the IRA had been an illegal organisation for a long time, all over the place. Another reason for distinguishing it from the PIRA. Fluffy999 17:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Added details on these groups and their liasons with the PIRA to the article. Also updated the PIRA arms importation and IMC articles with the latest information. Fluffy999 19:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone clean this discussion page up a bit or archive it? It seems to be full of rants for and against various political positions on one thing and another, Devin79, the KGB, Robert McCartney etc etc. Its hard to see the wood for the trees is what I mean. Fluffy999 02:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Will be adding more detail to the war on informers in the 1970s.
I re-wrote the section on policing as it seemed to give the POV impression that the PIRA assumed the role of community policeman on its own or sought it out somehow- it never did. In republican areas the community is more likely to watch out for one each other- a legacy of the attacks aimed at it from outsiders. This "looking out for one another" attitude extends to being watchful after the activities of "hoods", drug dealers, thieves, child molestors etc. The PIRA is then frequently involved in "adjudicating" on matters brought to its attention. The matters werent reported to the RUC. Some of the factors around this are alluded to in the article now. The other aspects not alluded to would revolve around "internal housekeeping" of people like informers, but I will add later.
Fluffy999
16:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The allegation that the PIRA is still engagded in organized crime should be removed if no source can be cited to support this claim. This seems extremly implausible, as the Army Council has issued very explicit orders to the contrary: that Volunteers are to make use of 'purley political and democractic, and exclusivley peaceful' means, and they are not to 'must not engadge in any other activites whatsoever'. -- Filippo Argenti 14:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Since its an article about the PIRA, I put in the republican view of the conflict as it pertains to casualties. Seems POV to leave it out when its so at odds with the analysis of casualty figures already presented in the article. Fluffy999 17:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Whatever. We've been over this and over this and over it again. This article is an amalgam of many people's writing and includes many little strands of pov. If you think that some phrase here is unfair or pov, then change it as long as you can back up your changes up with fact. To be honest, I would rather leave out the whole sentence about the provos having killed more of everyone in the troubles altogether, rahter than get into whiether they had the right to kill whoever it was on any particular occassion.
Jdorney 13:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Added images of mortar weapons constructed by PIRA, and a vehicle checkpoint. Will add detail on their counter intelligence, bomb manufacture, advances in bomb manufacture/technology, telephone warnings, and any other bits and pieces that spring to mind soon. For an article about the group its long on comment, short on detail to be honest. Fluffy999
Never heard that one before. I've heard of pin-heads, provos, provies, the RA, the Army etc, but never this one. Jdorney 13:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Im hoping you can help me along with your recent changes to the PIRA article. Ive some issues with your changes, namely:
I'm really curious why the entire thing shouldnt be reverted?
Also are you sure the brown wonder here is a better image to include? If you didnt like RPG avenue one, can you at least improve on it? Thanks. Fluffy999 18:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
This guy is just a vandal. There's no point reasoning with him. God knows I've tried. What he is doing has no connection with imporving the article, its just an ego trip, hwere he reverts the article to the version that he likes. Just revert his changes. Jdorney 14:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone else provided the info from the actual book, the Mitrokhin Archives, which turned out to be about the Official IRA. Devin79 wanted the article to say that the PIRA was funded, armed and trained by the KGB and the Stasi, which turned out to be a total fantasy. Among Devin's other achievments are unsourced and made up casualty figures, POV language and citing non existant sources. He claims a website or book says something and proceeds to add his pov accordingly, but when checked out it has almost always been found that the source does not say this at all. If I'm tetechy about this article and others sometimes, its because I've had to waste so much time protecting them from this user. Oh and I forgot to add that you can expect to be called a supporter of loyalist paramilitaries if you don't agree with his edits. Jdorney 15:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Added latest retread of allegations, and info on the Tohill 4. Doesnt look good for Martin Ingram, its not like people dont know who he is :) Fluffy999 21:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The truth is that for a long time this article has been full of factual errors and bias. It appears that the main editor of this page is very anti-IRA, and therefore has inserted much of his own bias into the article. Everything that I edited into the article is free of Bias for either side, and are facts backed up by sources, all of which are acknowledged within the article itself. What is left is the most factual and unbiased article that can be assembled. It is a shame that the editors of Wikipedia are not more stringent in thier fact checking, and are not more wary of article Bias. If Wikipedia is ever going to be looked upon as a serious project, it must contain accurate, bias free articles. I will be monitoring this article regularly for changes, and I will ensure that those changes are factual, or they will be erased...simple as that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.182.234 ( talk)
Why is this user (Devin79) not banned? He repeatedly vandalises this page and says that he will continue to do so, what else do you have to do get banned? Jdorney 10:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Good example of a recent Devin change: in the section "Numerical strength", an RUC report of 1986, cited in Brendan O'Brien's "The Long War" is quoted. It says that the RUC believed that the IRA had about 300 members in asu's and around 750 in total in NI. Devin, without changing the reference, changes it to say that they there were 600 in ASU's and 1000 in total, while leaving the reference the same. This is pure vandalism, misquoting a source to say something that it does not say. There's more. to satisfy his ego, this user reverts whole passages contributed by other users so that he can reinsert things that he wrote - which are usually innacccurate. He is a vandal and a liar and needs to be banned. Jdorney 12:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I love how the author's of this page, are so freaked out when ANYONE else but them, actually takes the time to research facts and uses them (sourced) to correct thier innacuracies. The Authors of this page have insrted so many bias and unfactual things into this article, it's no wonder Wikipedia is looked down on by Schools, and professional historians. If Wikipedia is ever to be credible, these authors need to put aside thier pathetic ego's, and allow others to help edit these pages with sourced facts...even if the facts are contrary to the bias of the original authors. I will edit this page daily, and I will inform Wikipedia about the unprofessional behavior of the editor's of this page, who revert and discard any changes to the article, no matter how well sourced or factual they are.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Devin79 ( talk • contribs)
I've changed the latest changes to the origins section a bit. Personally I feel that such material would be better off in Irish Republican Army (1922-1969), however if it is going to be here then a few things need to be ironed out. This article is not commentary, it is not our job to to approve or dissaprove of the IRA's ideology or actions. Our job is to explain them. Thus, lines like, "the IRA continued to oppose both states even though they had the support of the majority of their inhabitants", are not helpful. The reader will want to know why this came about.
Point two, the IRA never waged a campaign against the Free State after 1923. Some armed actions yes, but never a guerrilla campaign. In the 1930s, their hope was that when republicans (Fianna Fail) got into government, the Free State would reveal its anti-democratic character, appeal to the British for help and re-start the war against the common enemy. Of course this did not happen, because Cosgrave peacefully ceded power to FF in 1932. In General Order No. 8, issued in 1948, the IRA publicly disavowed "any armed actions whatsoever" against the Irish State.
Point three, bound up with the latter, the anti-treaty IRA were actually a majority of that organisation in 1922 (by 8-10 according to Dorothy McArdle, by 2-1 according to Richard Mulcahy). Of course CnaG and the pro-treaty parties won the election and wre therefore a majority in the country at large. The anti-treaty position however only became a minority among republicans after 1926, or possibly 1932.
Regards, Jdorney 15:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Anyone think [1] should be put in the article as well? Superdude99 12:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Most of the writings on the Provos use the present tense, although they disbanded in 2005 and it's been comfirmed in 2006 they don't exist as an organisation anymore. I'm going to start changing references to the PIRA to the past tense soon, for example:
The Provisional Irish Republican Army was an Irish Republican paramilitary organisation
As opposed to the current
The Provisional Irish Republican Army is an Irish Republican paramilitary organisation
Any objections? -- -- Pauric ( talk- contributions) 22:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Bit early for that imo.
Jdorney 00:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
One year is a very short time in the context of an organisation that sees itself as having been in existance since 1916. Lets just wait and see for a while. Jdorney 09:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The IRA have not disbanded. They have, however, put all their weapons beyond use. The IRA, if you check have released statements since this and on January 1st 2007 released their annual New Year statement. ( Irish Republican 02:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC))
In this edit [2], the claim that the IRA may have court-martialling those members who carried out the Kingsmill massacre was removed. It was probably correct to remove it as it was unsourced, but now the impression is given that these sectarian killings were sanctioned by the IRA. However, many IRA supporters would be adamant that the IRA was against all forms of sectarianism and took seriously the issue of the discipline of its members. The current text gives the (unsourced and/or POV) impression that the IRA targeted people because of the religion. Any suggestions? Something along the lines of reminding people that any army contains undisciplined members who go against what the army is trying to do, and suggest that the IRA claims to take discipline seriously (such as its offer in a public statement to execute the ex-republicans who took Robert McCartney's life) Aaron McDaid ( talk - contribs) 21:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
now that the Provisional IRA has convinced the international monitering commission that it has rendered all of it's weapons useless and stopped recruitment is there any chance that it could be legalized? I've heard before that some in the IRA want to become a political organization and Seanna Walsh in his statement encouraged all volunteers to engage in purely political activities. Just a question.
The introduction states that the IRA seeked to establish an all-Ireland socialist state, and cites the Eire Nua policy to back this up. However, I find this to be somewhat misleading, as the Eire Nua policy was repudiated upon Gerry Adams rise to power, and the majority of the members of the IRA were, to my understanding, relativley conservative. And being too"socialist" would undoubedly be discouraged or looked down on, as it might remind people of the Marxist 'Official' IRA, who the Provos weren't usually on good terms with.
So the socialist reference should probably be modified, put in context, etc. -- Filippo Argenti 02:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
However, I was just reading the Green Book [1977] and it said that "Again he [the Volunteer] should examine his political motives bearing in mind that the Army [IRA] are intent on creating a socialist republic". So I could be wrong. Thoughts, anyone?-- Filippo Argenti 03:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
If you check the dates, the Green Book 1977, the Éire Nua policy was dropped by Sinn Féin in 1982, with all refrence to it removed from their constitution in 1983. Sinn Féin would be leftist leaning, but are not marxist as some people claim. RSF would be more conservative then Sinn Féin-- padraig3uk 21:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
It had always been my understanding that the Provos split from the Officials because the Officials were too left-wing for them. This does not mean that the Provos were right-wing, I'd always thought of them as Catholic Centrists. Morandir 06:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm rather new to the Wiki (just joined up a few days ago), but the whole WikiProject concept seems like an effective tool for gathering a group of people together to work on a specific subject. I'm primarily interested in contributing to areas related to Irish nationalism, and the Irish Republican Army, and I've noticed a few of you have quite a lot of involvement in the same area. So, I wonder if anyone would be interested in forming a WikiProject focusing on Irish Nationalism? Wikipeda:WikiProject Irish Republican Army seems like a good title to me! WP:WPIRA would be a great shortcut! I'm posting this up on many different pages, so I would especially appreciate it if, if you're interested, you would join me at User talk:Johnathan Swift#WikiProject IRA. Erin Go Bragh 06:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
There's no basis for CreativeLogic's edits to stand, given that he's tried to add a reference that doesn't prove what he's saying. He's trying to fit a source to his POV rather than writing from the source, it's POV pushing at its worst. It's long been established Tom Murphy has been smuggling for decades, before he became Chief of Staff, so how the actions of one man and his associates can be used to smear the rest of the IRA escapes me. The Independent article has several examples at the bottom - Newry no mention of IRA in two sources, Belfast no mention of IRA, County Antrim was UVF and Jim Johnston was Red Hand Commando. This edit summary is highly inappropriate as well. One Night In Hackney 303 17:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I totaly agree this was pointed out to CreativeLogic's at the time yet he insisted in including the source.-- padraig3uk 17:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
User talk:212.183.134.128 if you care to check the source for the info you are trying to re-insert, which had been removed for the reason that the source given Dosen't support the claims made as they refer to loyalist groups, as for you insertion of the claim of 38 killings since the ceasefire, you provide a source that is highly POV and dubious at the least.-- padraig3uk 11:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/31947.pdf
This article would state that many NI paramilitary groups are indeed considered as terrorist groups by the US, but not necessarily as Foreign Terrorist Organisations.
Do we make a distinction in this article? There are various PDFs on the government site, including ones that refer to events as recent as the Northern Bank robbery.
Further, is this something to apply across the board? Thoughts welcome. 82.4.220.108 18:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, so I ask once again, do we make a distinction? The omission here is enough to once again slant a person's interpretation in an unfair manner. 82.4.220.108 22:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Sure, I can play that. According to the US State government website, the date of the PDF is 2007-04-03. You can easily verify this by accessing their website directly. I'd say that's a good deal more recent than half the other articles quoted. 82.4.220.108 18:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The date is listed beside the article, when searched on the US State government website. The most recent *report*, which is older than the article I just showed you, is located here:
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/65275.htm
The PDF is more recent, as evidenced by the search, and as such should really be the first port of call. 82.4.220.108 20:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I take that as acceptance of the source, its just a shame you don't have the civility to admit it. Reverts will be seen as no less than vandalism, as you have had ample opportunity to refute. 82.4.220.108 00:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Erm, sadly yes, the second link I gave you is not only dated, it also lists them under further terrorist organisations - or did you not care to read it? 82.4.220.108 01:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. That is a list of other terrorist groups, currently not designated as FTOs, but still under observation by various US counterterrorism depts, if you read the line in full. To back this up, an account of PIRA activity is listed in Chapter 5, dealing with European terrorism. The list at the end of the article, which I linked to, delineates FTO from TO, the difference being that one is a threat to US interests, the other is not. The current ceasefire is the reason why it is merely a TO (still involved with crime, according to the report) and not an FTO like its more active relatives. This is actually even clearer with respect to its predecessor report of 2004 (the same list appears but is titled "Other Selected Terrorist Organizations").
Furthermore, if the US State Govt is not a reliable source with regards to their own policy, than who or what exactly do you suggest is??? False accusations are not becoming.
Shall I amend the source link to include both the list AND the report on their activities within Chapter 5? Please make your response and undoubted objections clear, rather than leaving a vague reply and only later instigating reverts which you couldn't discuss at the time. Ta. 82.4.220.108 02:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The following groups of concern have not been designated as Foreign Terrorist Organizations under 8 USC Section 1189, although many have been designated under other U.S. Government counterterrorism authorities.
Firstly, I stand by the fact that the search function on the page turns up a date in 2007. Check it yourself, but please do not make false claims to the contrary. Secondly, you refer to the first PDF document, which was not the one I linked or referred to in the wikiarticle. A simple check of the edit history shows an htm file. Your "reason" for the revert is therefore nothing short of an obvious and blatant lie, and again a check of the edit will show that the file was in fact accurately dated for access and creation. Please do not attempt to fudge these two files in a poor attempt to slander me. Thirdly, and which you have tellingly ignored because it inconviently opposes your POV, is that the main text I refer to, being the most recent Country Report, clearly lists PIRA actions. I stated this above, that it is clearly visible in Chapter 5's report on European terrorism. Furthermore, a visit to the US National CounterTerrorism Center ( http://www.nctc.gov/) lists attacks in 2006 by the IRA. The Worldwide Incidents Tracking System lists two attacks in 2006 - the reason for this being that the terrorist group is still under global surveillance, ceasefire or no. So we have the NCTC, the most recent terrorism Country Report, and the most recent list of terrorist organisations ALL following the actions of the PIRA.
You've tried insults, lies, false accusations, you've claimed the US Govt is not reliable when quoting their own policy, so what's next? I suppose the NTC is unreliable too? Your position looks increasingly ridiculous in the face of more and more evidence, and certainly clearly evident of a lack of NPOV with regards to these groups.
I am more than happy to list these three sources as an amended and expanded footnote compared to my earlier, legitimate, edit. Furthermore, it would certainly be worthwhile, considering the time invested for what should have been a minor edit, to use these sources across the board with regards to these groups. I will, of course, give you opportunity to refute, although ignoring my reply, as you have done elsewhere, is only further evidence of your seeming bias. 82.4.220.108 17:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It is an htm file. It is dated at the top of the page. Anyone can see it in the edit. Your ignorance of three verifiable sources is patently ridiculous, but unfortunately this is not a joking matter since it relates to nothing less than propaganda.
I have fairly attempted to make clear the facts, even stating clearly that it is absent from the FTO list due to ceasefire. 82.4.220.108 17:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
That looks awfully like an htm link to me, dated at the top, not the dateless PDF you claim to have reverted. I also note you do not have the good courtesy to apologise and admit your untruth. You have also failed to address the issue - three sources, chained together.
A US report on terrorism, with their activities. Their appearance on a list of "other groups" that may be designated by other US CT authorities. A US CT website listing their actions as recent as 2006.
Straightforward logic - the US views them as a terrorist group. Not an FTO, certainly, but a terrorist group nonetheless. Even setting aside their appearance on the "Other Groups" list, the other two references stand. Hence the need for the distinction in the article (FTO/TO), which is why I did so and mentioned their ceasefire in order to maintain accuracy and NPOV.
You are unhappy that one source does not show the entire story - fair enough. I can list all three, as stated above and ignored by yourself. If you dislike that specific one, I can use the other two, although I find the one you're addressing to be critical to the difference between FTO and TO. 82.4.220.108 18:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
You accuse me of inserting an undated PDF file - I inserted a dated htm file. I have now shown you three sources, two of which don't even need either the PDF or the htm, and now you refuse to discuss them. Motive? 82.4.220.108 21:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Why misleadingly state it is an undated PDF? Why refuse to apologise for your error? Regardless -
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/enemy/index.htm where the source of the page indicates a creation date of 04/14/2006, please note "Read about specific terrorist groups." linked article http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/45323.pdf "Other Selected Terrorist Organizations" lists PIRA. Also, once again http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/ reports on terrorism, with specific regard to "Chapter 1 -- Legislative Requirements and Key Terms" defining key terms, "Chapter 5 -- Country Reports: Europe and Eurasia Overview" detailing PIRA activity, various quotes, most relevant being "maintained its capacity as a terrorist organization" and as mentioned previously "Chapter 8 -- Foreign Terrorist Organizations" with regards to the opinion of other US counterterrorist authorities, all of which come under a single remit. Please note difference between FTO and general terrorist organisation (see Chapter 1 and relevant links quoted within the report).
U.S. Counterterrorism Team member "National Counterterrorism Center" http://www.nctc.gov/ with respect to Worldwide Incidents Tracking System (WITS) http://wits.nctc.gov/ , which can be searched for IRA activity (as well as splinter groups) and returns results as recent as 2006, indicative that they fall within the sphere of interest of the NCTC/NCC, see earlier definitions.
I should think there's more than enough there. 82.4.220.108 22:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
28 April 2006 trumps any earlier dated documents. Sorry I don't search websites, provide a link or this discussion is over. One Night In Hackney 303 23:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I provided a good half dozen links there, most of which you could find by clicking the relevant subdivision of the reports on terrorism. In any case, your reply would indicate that I need only refer to two quotes. Firstly, "maintained its capacity as a terrorist organization" from "Chapter 5 -- Country Reports: Europe and Eurasia Overview" dated April 28, 2006. http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/64342.htm It belongs to the same report that you have just stated "trumps any earlier documents". The most recent article from WITS would be http://wits.nctc.gov/ViewIncident.do?icn=200697747 which indicates IRA activity is still being tracked by the National Counterterrorism Center. 82.4.220.108 00:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
"the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) maintained its capacity as a terrorist organization" - Quite clear that it is still classed as a terrorist organization, and again only terrorist organizations appear in these reports, as defined in Chapter 1. Second, the NCTC link makes it abundantly clear, by example, that they are still collating and researching IRA activities. To your other point, the IMC handles its own research, and its entirely possible for several agencies to draw different conclusions from the same evidence. Considering the perceived overlap between splinter groups, this isn't surprising. Its worth noting though that the "trump" document lists CIRA, PIRA, and RIRA separately, lists the non-ceasefire groups as FTOs, and the WITS database also makes a distinction. It seems the Americans can tell the groups apart easily enough.
82.4.220.108 00:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd certainly expect an editor to check the links. The quote is still fine. I assume you are implying that their capacity may have lowered post-2005, but that doesn't stop them being a terrorist organisation. 82.4.220.108 02:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I note you reverted it back the exact text of the Green Book, without clarifying who exactly "enemy personnel" are.
"We have enemies through ignorance, through our own fault or default and of course the main enemy is the establishment. "
"The establishment is all those who have a vested interest in maintaining the present status quo in politicians, media, judiciary, certain business elements and the Brit war machine comprising, the Brit Army, the U.D.R., R.U.C. (r) [reserve], Screws, Civilian Searchers. The cure for these armed branches of the establishment is well known and documented. But with the possible exceptions of the Brit Ministers in the 'Northern Ireland Office' and certain members of the judiciary, the overtly unarmed branches of the establishment are not so clearly identifiable to the people as our enemies as say armed Brits or R.U.C. "
You might want to see fit to add that to the article at some point. 82.4.220.108 22:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I would very much like to add clarification, as you well know, but you're also aware its hard to do so with people reverting on instinct. The quote I provided you is unnecessarily long, I think we can both agree. I do think that we should reach a quick consensus on a careful wording of "unarmed members of the establishment". That one line could be horribly misconstrued! It would save us editing back and forth and thus avoid unnecessary cluttering of the Edit record. Thanks! 82.4.220.108 18:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Your arbitrary definition, labelling it as British Army personnel, is completely at odds with the text quoted. Its certainly not breathtakingly clear, considering the media can hardly come under the remit of the British Army (except in only the most paranoid of minds). As stated above, exactly how much or how little do we add? Unarmed members of the establishment are mentioned in the quote, I'm giving you opportunity to clarify that this is primarily interpreted NOT to mean civilians. I assume that IS your POV? I don't see why you can't be civil about this. 82.4.220.108 00:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Considering my quote from the Green Book is entirely valid, and encompasses far more than just British Army personnel, I find it saddening, but at the same time hilarious, that you've invoked the word "troll". It's hardly my fault the Green Book lists the media, businesses, and the legal profession as "enemy personnel" - but hiding it from Wikipedia doesn't help you any. 82.4.220.108 01:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
"I claim"... no no no, they ARE groups the Green Book claims are the "enemy", as I quoted extensively above. As the article stands, "British Army" is just grossly misleading. We should be as clear as possible, and since you prefer to revert first and give reasons later, I think it would be wiser if you could suggest a more concise form of the above quote. Again, bear in mind it encompasses the media, judiciary, and politicians - so its most certainly not acceptable as it stands.
82.4.220.108 02:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
All. Firstly, I suggest "enemy personnel [British Army]" is to be removed as this is under dispute. It is a half truth, and misleading.
An amended quote, either inserted after 1. or after 5., stating something like "For the purposes of the Green Book, enemy personnel are broadly defined as opposing politicians and media groups, the judiciary, certain business elements in particular, and the British Army in general."
I've tried to clarify that the enemy are opposing politicians, etc, to avoid any potentially ridiculous misconceptions that ANY media figure or politician was a target. I believe that covers the main groups appropriately, although it would be better to find a way to combine judiciary with the prison service. Strictly speaking, I think we could agree the UDR has effectively ceased to be, and the RUC are also a defunct entity. Unless you wish to add something like "and former organisations such as UDR and RUC" just for full transparency. I am unaware if recent edits of the Book deem the RUC and PSNI synonymous - I think at the current time its rather a matter of opinion amongst certain elements, and probably not relevant to discussion regarding the original book.
Comments? 82.4.220.108 17:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The source states in clear terms who the enemy is - the above groups. I have quoted the text of the Green Book extensively. Please take adequate time to read the quotations. The "main enemy" is defined as "the establishment". "The establishment" is then set into separate groups.
Enemy personnel are those in the employ of the groups cited - this follows from the dictionary definition of the term. The groups need to be detailed for clarity, in order to ensure NPOV and the accuracy of the article. YOU may want to believe that the Green Book only lists the British Army as the enemy, but as the above quotes show, you are quite quite wrong.
Further, opposing politicians, media, members of the British legal system, prison system, etc are more than capable of withdrawing - to presumably be replaced by their Irish equivalents, and thus creating a united Ireland.
I am quoting from the Book, no more, no less. To use only one set of quotes, and corrupt or ignore another set, is only further evidence of a lack of NPOV by malicious omission of the facts. 82.4.220.108 17:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
"A war of attrition against enemy personnel" "the main enemy is the establishment". "The establishment is..." - see extended quote above.
All three quotes directly from the Green Book.
Personnel defined in the dictionary as those belonging to a group or organisation. Enemy personnel therefore being those people belonging to enemy groups or organisations. I should say its fairly straightforward from there. People working for the enemy, the main enemy is the establishment, the establishment is the following groups, list of groups. A war of attrition against establishment personnel, if you want an INCREDIBLY shortened version. 82.4.220.108 18:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I gave you exact quotes, from the Green Book, that set out the definition of the enemy and enemy personnel. They are neither fabricated, nor inaccurate. I suggest your dispute is with the source material. 82.4.220.108 21:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite follow - if you're unhappy with the shortened version I have suggested for conciseness, then the full quote should be used in its unaltered form, in an identical manner to its current appearance and interpretation on Wikipedia, and relevant publications such as "AN ALPHABETICAL LISTING OF WORD, NAME AND PLACE IN NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE LIVING LANGUAGE OF CONFLICT by Seamus Dunn and Helen Dawson (2000)" and "The IRA by Tim Pat Coogan (2000) fourth edition" (alternatively the 1993 third edition). 82.4.220.108 23:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It would say that it is relevant as the section currently stands - you can't really list their strategy without accurate definitions of the terms involved. It is for the reader to decide if they personally agree or disagree with the definitions used. 82.4.220.108 00:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Its a clear lie, by omission of fact - As detailed in the Green Book, as quoted above, as quoted in Wikipedia, as quoted in many published documents. 82.4.220.108 02:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Please carry on the discussion about the opponents here, as we may as well do everything in one place.
I've removed the allies as they were unsourced, and the majority were dubious. I'll take each in turn:
At best for all of them you're looking at loose affiliation rather than actually being an ally. I could possibly see Libya/Gadaffi meriting a mention in the infobox but I'm not even sure about that.
That said I'm open for discussion (ideally backed by sources) over whether any of them should go back.
Strength seems to be an arbitrary figure of ~1000. Not sure where that figure has come from, or when it applies to as there's no clarification. I'd have thought the best option would be to use the 8-10,000 total membership over the course of the PIRA's existence, rather than a pretty meaningless current figure assuming that's what the 1000 is. One Night In Hackney 303 05:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm having problems working out how to possibly add cites for the various media outlets listed after the sentence "It is generally called a terrorist organisation by the following media outlets". I could more than likely find a cite from one or more articles from each newspaper describing the PIRA as a terrorist organisation, but that doesn't prove "generally". Any attempt to say "well if they use it more than x% of the time" sounds horribly like original research and very difficult to source and I'm unhappy about simply listing a newspaper if we can find one example of them describing the PIRA as a terrorist organisation. Does anyone else think we might be better off losing that part, and concentrating on governments and law enforcement agencies? One Night In Hackney 303 11:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The article as it stands makes no mention of the IRA being involved in, or having been implicated in/accused of, drug dealing or trafficking. I have a feeling this is going to be an unpopular subject to add, so raising it here first. I've only done a quick search for sources, and this Congressional record about an article written by Dennis Eisenberg is the only thing I've come up with so far. Thoughts? Stu ’Bout ye! 11:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm going to try and come up with a wording before inserting it into the article:
As with loyalist paramilitaries, the Proisional IRA has been reported to have been involved in drug trafficking and dealing since its inception. However the level of their involvement is much less known than that of loyalists. In 1990 Bob Dornan quoted an article written by journalist Dennis Eisenberg in the United States House of Representatives. In the article Eisenberg claimed that " Yasser Arafat's PLO ........ uses its links with the Irish Republican Army (IRA) to rake in massive profits from sending drugs via Holland to its network of agents in Britain, West Germany, and Ireland for international distribution." The article also claimed the PLO and IRA were involved in a joint money laundering operation in Europe. [1] However Dorman is well known for making controversial statements and Eisenberg's article first appeared The World and I magazine, which has links to Sun Myung Moon. More recently the IRA has been accused of receiving money made through drug trafficking from FARC, in return for supplying training to the illegal Colombian organisation. One such report was written by Rachel Ehrenfeld in 2002. The Colombia Three were arrested in 2001 by the Colombian authorities. [2] Other newspaper reports have indicated drug dealing within Ireland. A February 1998 Sunday Times report stated "The IRA does not handle the drugs, but oversees the operation and takes a percentage from each deal." [3] A July 1999 report in the Washington Times claimed "the Provisional IRA has made significant inroads into the Dublin underworld of protection and drug-dealing rackets" [4] It is also claimed that the IRA were involved in trafficking to pay for arms importation in the 1980s, including the shipment aboard the Marita Ann in 1984. [5]
This wording could be added to the Fundraising via organised crime section. Any comments, suggestions or objections to the working please. I've balanced the Eisenberg claims. I also stress the above wording is a very rough first draft and I've only made a quick search for references, and only online ones at that. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
It is also claimed that the IRA were involved in trafficking to pay for arms importation in the 1980s, including the shipment aboard the Marita Ann in 1984.
I know this conversation is quite old now, but I thought it was worth mentioning that the renowned drug dealer Howard Marks claims to have had dealings with the IRA in this context and the wiki article about him currently links to this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.49.114 ( talk) 17:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
In the early 1990s, during the breakup of Yugoslavia, the IRA trained the fledgling Croatian Army in return for armaments is being added using this source, and I have removed it as original research. The majority of the article refers to the Real IRA, except for this sentence.
A spokesman said the general is believed to have received explosives training from Irish republicans in the 1990s
I have emphasised what the problem with it is, it does not say the PIRA were responsible and it certainly doesn't back up the text being added. Any further attempts to insert that information will be reverted. One Night In Hackney 303 13:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone here knows of any book that tells the story of IRA from the point of view of a militant? It could be some sort of a diary where someone who at some point belonged to the organization describes their tactis/skills strategy and how the operate on the ground level. I believe it would be a useful reference to add to the article, possibility to the see also or external links section. Maziotis 02:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
If you read the lede in a previous version of our article on the Provisional Irish Republican Army at
you will see that the abbreviation PIRA is accurate, although many shorten this to the IRA, the Provos, "the Army" or the "'RA".
However, just because folks are sloppy, lazy and sometimes misleading does not mean our encyclopaedia should be too. Most folks I know (incorrectly) term a "ballpoint pen" a BIRO. Not all ballpoint pens are BIRO's and not all splinter groups or political sects are the Irish Republican Army that my illustrious relation commanded.
It's necessary when discussing terrorist groups to precisely identify the perpetrator - especially when that has been established by confession or judicial process.
I realise that there is a determined clique of biased editors on Wikipedia that wish to obfuscate and, like Alice, change words and abbreviations to mean what they want them to mean in articles related to Ireland, but Wikipedia's purpose is to inform and educate not confuse and fail to make distinctions between different historic organisations ... Gaimhreadhan (kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 05:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
It has been my experience that the term PIRA tends to be primarily used by the British Army and the Northern Ireland police. I suspect that it may have originally been coined by them, but I haven't been able to locate a clear reference yet. (Military people seem to have a penchant for acronymising everything.) Anyway, the net effect is that the article has a slightly biased feel about it, since "PIRA" tends to be a rather loaded term. I would suggest adding an explanatory footnote to that effect, attached to the first use of the term at the head of the article. Or maybe we could add a sentence or two in the Categorisation section. JXM 17:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an enclyclopedia. If there is any danger of confusion, a full version of the name should be used when it is first introduced and linked - Provisional Irish Republican Army. It shouldn't be piped to read IRA. I would agree the most usual abbreviation for the Provisional IRA is just IRA. Where there is no danger of confusion, this could appear in brackets after the first (unpiped) link. Where a danger of confusion does exist, then PIRA should be used. POV doesn't come into it. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 14:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
[Deindent] Sorry, Brixton, I'm confused. When you say they became the IRA instead of being the Provisional IRA - does that mean they became the Official IRA? Or is there a group out there calling itself "The IRA ("Accept no substitutes!")? Do you mean the
Conclusion: Disambugation and accuracy are good things. Moral: Always look on the bright side of life. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 14:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I have done some research, using the UK version of Google to avoid any possible Irish bias.
Excluding Wikipedia, the first relevant hits for "PIRA" are on page 3 of the search results, and they are both Bebo which doesn't count. The first real hit is on page 8 and is the BBC.
A similar search for "IRA" returns 3 hits on page 1 (tellingly including the BBC result that appears on page 8 for PIRA) and 4 hits on page 2.
That proves how rarely the term is used. The argument about IRA confusing African or Indian readers holds no water. Surely any use of the acronym would confuse them? So we couldn't use the acronym in any other article either, whether it's related to the Provos or not? There are many common acronyms, and unless there is a real risk of confusion we should stick to the one people will be familiar with, which is the commonly used IRA not the obscure PIRA. Brixton Busters 06:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Brixton, the above discussion in no way creates or reflects a consensus to replace all PIRA abbreviations with IRA; nor one to drop the word Provisional from articles involving the PIRA. Please stop misrepresenting it as such in articles. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 10:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Nothing to do with the debate, I'm afraid, but just for the sake of accuracy, IRA is not an acronym, it is an abbreviation while PIRA is an acronym. Rgds. - Bill Reid | Talk 13:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
If an acroynm is a word formed from the initial letters of a series of words how is PIRA one and IRA not just wondering.-- BigDunc 14:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Because IRA is not used as a word, it is always spelled out but PIRA can be said as a word just as WYSIWYG is. Rgds. -- Bill Reid | Talk 14:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
There appear to be two sides to this argument, which seem to be: 1. The Provisional Irish Republican Army is most commonly known as "the IRA" - therefore, when abbreviated, it should always be abbreviated to IRA; 2. The Provisional Irish Republican Army, while most commonly known as "the IRA", is only one of a number of organisations using "Irish Republican Army" as part of its name - therefore, to avoid any ambiguity, it should always be abbreviated to PIRA.
A possible compromise:
Thoughts? Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 22:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
No private agreement can ever supersede the fundamental policies of our encyclopaedia. Nobody has yet adequately explained why, when the official reports of both the governments in these islands and that of the US State department consistently use clear acronyms such as PIRA, OIRA, RIRA and CIRA, we should use the ambiguous (but politically advantageous to the Provos) abbreviation IRA.
There is currently an ongoing Arbcom on these articles so I suggest that a proposal is made there to override our standing policies if editors don't wish to use the full name of Provisional IRA or the clear and unambiguous PIRA abbreviation.
One of the clearest examples of official language (as opposed to sloppy journalism) is the Fifteenth report of the Independent Monitoring Commission issued on 25 April 2007 and available in PDF form here. W. Frank talk ✉ 16:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I guess you didn't scroll down to the right section then?
And don't give me any chestnut about them using PIRA once in the intro, they use IRA all the rest of the time. One Night In Hackney 303 17:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOT#ADVOCATE is official policy on the English Wikipedia.
It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. When editing this page, and other articles relating to the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA), please ensure that your revision reflects our policy that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda. Therefore, Wikipedia content is not:
1. Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment of any kind, commercial, political, religious, or otherwise. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favourite views.
2. Opinion pieces on current affairs or politics. Although current affairs and politics may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (i.e. passionately advocate their pet point of view), Wikipedia is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced so as to put entries for current affairs in a reasonable perspective, and represent a neutral point of view. Furthermore, Wikipedia authors should strive to write articles that will not quickly become obsolete.
3. Self-promotion. It can be tempting to write about yourself or projects you have a strong personal involvement in. However, do remember that the standards for encyclopaedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which is difficult when writing about yourself and your friends. See Wikipedia:Autobiography, Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.
Currently we have a team of editors (including, but not limited to: User:Brixton Busters, User:BigDunc, User:Domer48, User:Padraig, User:Vintagekits) that edit a consistent set of our articles in such a way as to introduce a consistent bias and ambiguity.
These editors act in relay to avoid technically breaching 3RR and consistently seek to push a minority POV endorsed by PIRA and their political wing that is to the political electoral advantage of provisional SF.
The pattern to these team editors contributions is as follows:
(1) There have been, and are currently, many flavours of political organisations including in their name the letters "IRA". These team editors consistently seek to muddy and obfuscate the distinctions between the pre 1920 IRA, the Continuity IRA (CIRA), the Official IRA (OIRA), the Provisional IRA (PIRA), the Real IRA (RIRA), and other sects. They do this by trying to obliterate any reference that clarifies that PIRA is meant in the article preferring the wholly ambiguous "IRA" instead. The political purpose of these team edits is to reduce the political significance of the competing groupings.
(2) These team editors consistently seek to muddy and obfuscate the distinctions between the pre 1920 IRA, CIRA, OIRA, PIRA, RIRA and other sects. They do this in order to mislead our readers into believing that PIRA is the direct political heir of the pre 1920 IRA and achieve greater "electoral respectability" for provisional SF thereby. This is why the team editors engage in revert warring to try to obliterate any reference that clarifies that PIRA is meant in the article and instead insert the wholly ambiguous "IRA" instead. The political purpose of these team edits is again to reduce the political significance of the competing groupings and enhance that of current political groupings sympathetic to PIRA.
(3) They seek to remove any reference to terrorism and the victims of terrorism – except when they are "PIRA-approved victims" as in our Bloody Sunday (1972) article – as in our Bloody Friday (1972) article. Compare and contrast our articles with PIRA involvement and our articles with Islamic terrorist] involvement. Note the lede in World Trade Center bombing where the team's interest and influence is extremely low and the howls of anguish when that "naughty word" is used correctly to reflect the overwhelming available authoritative sources with regard to PIRA actions where non-combatants were murdered and mutilated.
According to Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."
Have a read WP:NAM W.Frank and chill out its not a conspiracy against WP or you. BigDunc 14:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
This:
An internal British army document released under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 in 2007 stated that the British Army had failed to defeat the IRA. The document examined 37 years of British troop deployment and was complied following a 6 month study by a team of three officers carried out in earily 2006 for General Sir Mike Jackson, the British Army's Chief of the General Staff.
is somewhat misleading; it gives an absolute impression and displays bias. A better rewrite than my previous one, although still not quite right, IMO. I've changed it slightly to reflect that the "failed to defeat the IRA" part is given as an opinion, not a statement. (Unsigned Revision of 18:39, 15 July 2007 (UCT) by User:Evilteuf)
"...until the Belfast Agreement, sought to end Northern Ireland's status within the United Kingdom and bring about a United Ireland by force of arms and political persuasion." Just wondering as the IRA are not disbanded are there aims not still the same as before the Good Friday Agreement, maybe not at war but still around. Anyone any views on this and should it be changed. -- BigDunc 11:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Gaimhreadhan have you got any refrence that states that since the Belfat Agreement the IRA have changed there aims I dont think they have but that is a POV still think it should be changed as it imploys that they have. BigDunc 13:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Could editors please be mindful of the above when posting edits. Thanks -- Domer48 13:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
It is already in the relevant category, "Proscribed paramilitary organizations in Northern Ireland". Why is it being added to the parent category? Brixton Busters 15:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Designated terrorist organizations are non-governmental organizations that currently are designated by a state as terrorist organizations.
Articles should be included on this page only if there is sufficient sourced verifiable information on their article page to demonstrate that they have been designated as a terrorist organization by a suitable body.
"According to The Provisional IRA (Eamon Mallie and Patrick Bishop), roughly 8,000 people passed through the ranks of the IRA during the 30 year Troubles, many of them leaving after arrest, "retirement" or disillusionment". That book was published in the late 80s (87? 88?), so cannot support that particular piece of text. Brixton Busters 15:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
It's npt dubvious, those were the estimates of those authors up to that time. If you have more up to date figures then lets have them. Jdorney 09:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
PIRA is not currently listed as a " Foreign Terrorist Organization" (FTO) by the United States of America since it does not currently threaten (and has not in the last 5 years) [7] the security of U.S. nationals or the national security or the economic interests of the U.S.
The US legislation (see this subsection of our U.S. State Department list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations#Legal Criteria for Designation article) makes clear that if a foreign terrorist organisation does not threaten US interests then it will not be designated as a FTO by the US.
This web page makes clear that PIRA does not (and has not since 2000) threatened US interests: http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/terrorist-groups.cfm (look in the Northern Ireland section - you'll also note the use of "PIRA" to distinguish ambiguity)
The relevant entry for PIRA there reads: "MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: None." W. Frank talk ✉ 16:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
This deserves a new section. I will be, possibly temporarily, removing the FTO mentions and associated category. While doing research for a source to aid W. Frank's quest to state why the IRA are no longer designated as an FTO I made a relevant discovery.
So, have the IRA ever been designated as an FTO? Let us start from the beginning before adding back this now possibly irrelevant text. Were they designated? If so, when? Also, a date/reason they ceased to be designated would be useful as well, assuming they were designated in the first place. Brixton Busters 11:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm tempted to propose merging IRA Quartermaster General into this page. There's hardly any useful info there which couldn't be easily added to tne main page. Thoughts?? JXM 16:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:IRA Resistance Poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 18:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Reference 7 quotes Statutory Rules and Orders, 1939, No. 162: "It is hereby declared that the organisation styling itself the Irish Republican Army (also the I.R.A. and Oglaigh na hÉireann) is an unlawful organisation." This is explicit recognition by the Irish Government of the use of the title by the IRA. Furthermore, it makes the organisation unlawful, not its use of the title. Both these ststements are in fact untrue. Certain members of the Irish Government and/or the Irish Army have expressed their disapproval of the use of the title by the IRA(s), but there is no government policy, and certainly no law, regarding it. Scolaire 11:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed that sentence, and similar sentences in Óglaigh na hÉireann and Irish Defence Forces. Scolaire 09:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
According to Seán Mac Stíofáin [8], the Provisional IRA was not formed until after Provisional Sinn Féin, i.e. January 1970:
The Provisional Army Council was formed within the existing IRA in December 1969. Scolaire 14:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Although it's allegedly sourced, it's completely wrong. I have a copy of the book in front on me, and it says:
There had been fewer opportunities for the movement to develop in the South; there had been only local government elections since the country went to the polls in December 1981. In that contest, even though it came within a few months of the ending of the hunger strikes, Sinn Fein had performed dismally, collecting only five per cent of the vote.
Nothing to do with the General Election, changed accordingly. One Night In Hackney 303 06:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
Removed "However it is not currently listed as a " Foreign Terrorist Organization" by the United States of America." Criteria for said list includes "it must threaten...security of...United States of America." The IRA never has and in all possible certainty never will be a threat to the USA as it is the UK they are fighting against.
I have added "The USA does not classify the IRA/PIRA as an illegal organisation as it does not constitute a threat to the United States." Ste01 16:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
"Those McCartney family members and his fiancee were being used by the Bush adminstration, and most of the people in the U.S. knew it. Bcsurvivor 15:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)"
Folk, I suggest a permanent ban be imposed upon User talk:68.35.182.234, aka Bcsurvivor, aka Devin79 and indeed any other such editor who causes as much hassle on any article. I see absolutly no reason why we should be reasonable to unreasonable people. Fergananim 20:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that bc survivor is the same person as Devin79 in fairness. Jdorney 13:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I've an issue with this section:
"All levels of the IRA are entitled to send delegates to IRA General Army Conventions (GACs). The GAC is the IRA's supreme decision-making authority. Before 1969, GACs met regularly. Since 1970 they have become less frequent, owing to the difficulty in organising such a large gathering of what is an illegal organisation."
From reading this it is saying that the IRA is the same organisation as the PIRA- a problem noticeable throughout the entire article, is there a reason for the repeated use of 'IRA' when 'PIRA' is being referred to?
The assertion the IRA had always enjoyed large meetings isnt accurate anyway. The IRA has always had trouble meeting in GAC, and frequently in the past ((1939-1945)/(1952-1964) in particular) the majority of its members have been on the run, including the Army council. Plus by 1969 the IRA had been an illegal organisation for a long time, all over the place. Another reason for distinguishing it from the PIRA. Fluffy999 17:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Added details on these groups and their liasons with the PIRA to the article. Also updated the PIRA arms importation and IMC articles with the latest information. Fluffy999 19:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone clean this discussion page up a bit or archive it? It seems to be full of rants for and against various political positions on one thing and another, Devin79, the KGB, Robert McCartney etc etc. Its hard to see the wood for the trees is what I mean. Fluffy999 02:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Will be adding more detail to the war on informers in the 1970s.
I re-wrote the section on policing as it seemed to give the POV impression that the PIRA assumed the role of community policeman on its own or sought it out somehow- it never did. In republican areas the community is more likely to watch out for one each other- a legacy of the attacks aimed at it from outsiders. This "looking out for one another" attitude extends to being watchful after the activities of "hoods", drug dealers, thieves, child molestors etc. The PIRA is then frequently involved in "adjudicating" on matters brought to its attention. The matters werent reported to the RUC. Some of the factors around this are alluded to in the article now. The other aspects not alluded to would revolve around "internal housekeeping" of people like informers, but I will add later.
Fluffy999
16:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The allegation that the PIRA is still engagded in organized crime should be removed if no source can be cited to support this claim. This seems extremly implausible, as the Army Council has issued very explicit orders to the contrary: that Volunteers are to make use of 'purley political and democractic, and exclusivley peaceful' means, and they are not to 'must not engadge in any other activites whatsoever'. -- Filippo Argenti 14:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Since its an article about the PIRA, I put in the republican view of the conflict as it pertains to casualties. Seems POV to leave it out when its so at odds with the analysis of casualty figures already presented in the article. Fluffy999 17:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Whatever. We've been over this and over this and over it again. This article is an amalgam of many people's writing and includes many little strands of pov. If you think that some phrase here is unfair or pov, then change it as long as you can back up your changes up with fact. To be honest, I would rather leave out the whole sentence about the provos having killed more of everyone in the troubles altogether, rahter than get into whiether they had the right to kill whoever it was on any particular occassion.
Jdorney 13:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Added images of mortar weapons constructed by PIRA, and a vehicle checkpoint. Will add detail on their counter intelligence, bomb manufacture, advances in bomb manufacture/technology, telephone warnings, and any other bits and pieces that spring to mind soon. For an article about the group its long on comment, short on detail to be honest. Fluffy999
Never heard that one before. I've heard of pin-heads, provos, provies, the RA, the Army etc, but never this one. Jdorney 13:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Im hoping you can help me along with your recent changes to the PIRA article. Ive some issues with your changes, namely:
I'm really curious why the entire thing shouldnt be reverted?
Also are you sure the brown wonder here is a better image to include? If you didnt like RPG avenue one, can you at least improve on it? Thanks. Fluffy999 18:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
This guy is just a vandal. There's no point reasoning with him. God knows I've tried. What he is doing has no connection with imporving the article, its just an ego trip, hwere he reverts the article to the version that he likes. Just revert his changes. Jdorney 14:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone else provided the info from the actual book, the Mitrokhin Archives, which turned out to be about the Official IRA. Devin79 wanted the article to say that the PIRA was funded, armed and trained by the KGB and the Stasi, which turned out to be a total fantasy. Among Devin's other achievments are unsourced and made up casualty figures, POV language and citing non existant sources. He claims a website or book says something and proceeds to add his pov accordingly, but when checked out it has almost always been found that the source does not say this at all. If I'm tetechy about this article and others sometimes, its because I've had to waste so much time protecting them from this user. Oh and I forgot to add that you can expect to be called a supporter of loyalist paramilitaries if you don't agree with his edits. Jdorney 15:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Added latest retread of allegations, and info on the Tohill 4. Doesnt look good for Martin Ingram, its not like people dont know who he is :) Fluffy999 21:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The truth is that for a long time this article has been full of factual errors and bias. It appears that the main editor of this page is very anti-IRA, and therefore has inserted much of his own bias into the article. Everything that I edited into the article is free of Bias for either side, and are facts backed up by sources, all of which are acknowledged within the article itself. What is left is the most factual and unbiased article that can be assembled. It is a shame that the editors of Wikipedia are not more stringent in thier fact checking, and are not more wary of article Bias. If Wikipedia is ever going to be looked upon as a serious project, it must contain accurate, bias free articles. I will be monitoring this article regularly for changes, and I will ensure that those changes are factual, or they will be erased...simple as that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.182.234 ( talk)
Why is this user (Devin79) not banned? He repeatedly vandalises this page and says that he will continue to do so, what else do you have to do get banned? Jdorney 10:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Good example of a recent Devin change: in the section "Numerical strength", an RUC report of 1986, cited in Brendan O'Brien's "The Long War" is quoted. It says that the RUC believed that the IRA had about 300 members in asu's and around 750 in total in NI. Devin, without changing the reference, changes it to say that they there were 600 in ASU's and 1000 in total, while leaving the reference the same. This is pure vandalism, misquoting a source to say something that it does not say. There's more. to satisfy his ego, this user reverts whole passages contributed by other users so that he can reinsert things that he wrote - which are usually innacccurate. He is a vandal and a liar and needs to be banned. Jdorney 12:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I love how the author's of this page, are so freaked out when ANYONE else but them, actually takes the time to research facts and uses them (sourced) to correct thier innacuracies. The Authors of this page have insrted so many bias and unfactual things into this article, it's no wonder Wikipedia is looked down on by Schools, and professional historians. If Wikipedia is ever to be credible, these authors need to put aside thier pathetic ego's, and allow others to help edit these pages with sourced facts...even if the facts are contrary to the bias of the original authors. I will edit this page daily, and I will inform Wikipedia about the unprofessional behavior of the editor's of this page, who revert and discard any changes to the article, no matter how well sourced or factual they are.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Devin79 ( talk • contribs)
I've changed the latest changes to the origins section a bit. Personally I feel that such material would be better off in Irish Republican Army (1922-1969), however if it is going to be here then a few things need to be ironed out. This article is not commentary, it is not our job to to approve or dissaprove of the IRA's ideology or actions. Our job is to explain them. Thus, lines like, "the IRA continued to oppose both states even though they had the support of the majority of their inhabitants", are not helpful. The reader will want to know why this came about.
Point two, the IRA never waged a campaign against the Free State after 1923. Some armed actions yes, but never a guerrilla campaign. In the 1930s, their hope was that when republicans (Fianna Fail) got into government, the Free State would reveal its anti-democratic character, appeal to the British for help and re-start the war against the common enemy. Of course this did not happen, because Cosgrave peacefully ceded power to FF in 1932. In General Order No. 8, issued in 1948, the IRA publicly disavowed "any armed actions whatsoever" against the Irish State.
Point three, bound up with the latter, the anti-treaty IRA were actually a majority of that organisation in 1922 (by 8-10 according to Dorothy McArdle, by 2-1 according to Richard Mulcahy). Of course CnaG and the pro-treaty parties won the election and wre therefore a majority in the country at large. The anti-treaty position however only became a minority among republicans after 1926, or possibly 1932.
Regards, Jdorney 15:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Anyone think [1] should be put in the article as well? Superdude99 12:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Most of the writings on the Provos use the present tense, although they disbanded in 2005 and it's been comfirmed in 2006 they don't exist as an organisation anymore. I'm going to start changing references to the PIRA to the past tense soon, for example:
The Provisional Irish Republican Army was an Irish Republican paramilitary organisation
As opposed to the current
The Provisional Irish Republican Army is an Irish Republican paramilitary organisation
Any objections? -- -- Pauric ( talk- contributions) 22:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Bit early for that imo.
Jdorney 00:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
One year is a very short time in the context of an organisation that sees itself as having been in existance since 1916. Lets just wait and see for a while. Jdorney 09:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The IRA have not disbanded. They have, however, put all their weapons beyond use. The IRA, if you check have released statements since this and on January 1st 2007 released their annual New Year statement. ( Irish Republican 02:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC))
In this edit [2], the claim that the IRA may have court-martialling those members who carried out the Kingsmill massacre was removed. It was probably correct to remove it as it was unsourced, but now the impression is given that these sectarian killings were sanctioned by the IRA. However, many IRA supporters would be adamant that the IRA was against all forms of sectarianism and took seriously the issue of the discipline of its members. The current text gives the (unsourced and/or POV) impression that the IRA targeted people because of the religion. Any suggestions? Something along the lines of reminding people that any army contains undisciplined members who go against what the army is trying to do, and suggest that the IRA claims to take discipline seriously (such as its offer in a public statement to execute the ex-republicans who took Robert McCartney's life) Aaron McDaid ( talk - contribs) 21:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
now that the Provisional IRA has convinced the international monitering commission that it has rendered all of it's weapons useless and stopped recruitment is there any chance that it could be legalized? I've heard before that some in the IRA want to become a political organization and Seanna Walsh in his statement encouraged all volunteers to engage in purely political activities. Just a question.
The introduction states that the IRA seeked to establish an all-Ireland socialist state, and cites the Eire Nua policy to back this up. However, I find this to be somewhat misleading, as the Eire Nua policy was repudiated upon Gerry Adams rise to power, and the majority of the members of the IRA were, to my understanding, relativley conservative. And being too"socialist" would undoubedly be discouraged or looked down on, as it might remind people of the Marxist 'Official' IRA, who the Provos weren't usually on good terms with.
So the socialist reference should probably be modified, put in context, etc. -- Filippo Argenti 02:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
However, I was just reading the Green Book [1977] and it said that "Again he [the Volunteer] should examine his political motives bearing in mind that the Army [IRA] are intent on creating a socialist republic". So I could be wrong. Thoughts, anyone?-- Filippo Argenti 03:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
If you check the dates, the Green Book 1977, the Éire Nua policy was dropped by Sinn Féin in 1982, with all refrence to it removed from their constitution in 1983. Sinn Féin would be leftist leaning, but are not marxist as some people claim. RSF would be more conservative then Sinn Féin-- padraig3uk 21:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
It had always been my understanding that the Provos split from the Officials because the Officials were too left-wing for them. This does not mean that the Provos were right-wing, I'd always thought of them as Catholic Centrists. Morandir 06:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm rather new to the Wiki (just joined up a few days ago), but the whole WikiProject concept seems like an effective tool for gathering a group of people together to work on a specific subject. I'm primarily interested in contributing to areas related to Irish nationalism, and the Irish Republican Army, and I've noticed a few of you have quite a lot of involvement in the same area. So, I wonder if anyone would be interested in forming a WikiProject focusing on Irish Nationalism? Wikipeda:WikiProject Irish Republican Army seems like a good title to me! WP:WPIRA would be a great shortcut! I'm posting this up on many different pages, so I would especially appreciate it if, if you're interested, you would join me at User talk:Johnathan Swift#WikiProject IRA. Erin Go Bragh 06:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
There's no basis for CreativeLogic's edits to stand, given that he's tried to add a reference that doesn't prove what he's saying. He's trying to fit a source to his POV rather than writing from the source, it's POV pushing at its worst. It's long been established Tom Murphy has been smuggling for decades, before he became Chief of Staff, so how the actions of one man and his associates can be used to smear the rest of the IRA escapes me. The Independent article has several examples at the bottom - Newry no mention of IRA in two sources, Belfast no mention of IRA, County Antrim was UVF and Jim Johnston was Red Hand Commando. This edit summary is highly inappropriate as well. One Night In Hackney 303 17:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I totaly agree this was pointed out to CreativeLogic's at the time yet he insisted in including the source.-- padraig3uk 17:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
User talk:212.183.134.128 if you care to check the source for the info you are trying to re-insert, which had been removed for the reason that the source given Dosen't support the claims made as they refer to loyalist groups, as for you insertion of the claim of 38 killings since the ceasefire, you provide a source that is highly POV and dubious at the least.-- padraig3uk 11:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/31947.pdf
This article would state that many NI paramilitary groups are indeed considered as terrorist groups by the US, but not necessarily as Foreign Terrorist Organisations.
Do we make a distinction in this article? There are various PDFs on the government site, including ones that refer to events as recent as the Northern Bank robbery.
Further, is this something to apply across the board? Thoughts welcome. 82.4.220.108 18:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, so I ask once again, do we make a distinction? The omission here is enough to once again slant a person's interpretation in an unfair manner. 82.4.220.108 22:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Sure, I can play that. According to the US State government website, the date of the PDF is 2007-04-03. You can easily verify this by accessing their website directly. I'd say that's a good deal more recent than half the other articles quoted. 82.4.220.108 18:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The date is listed beside the article, when searched on the US State government website. The most recent *report*, which is older than the article I just showed you, is located here:
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/65275.htm
The PDF is more recent, as evidenced by the search, and as such should really be the first port of call. 82.4.220.108 20:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I take that as acceptance of the source, its just a shame you don't have the civility to admit it. Reverts will be seen as no less than vandalism, as you have had ample opportunity to refute. 82.4.220.108 00:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Erm, sadly yes, the second link I gave you is not only dated, it also lists them under further terrorist organisations - or did you not care to read it? 82.4.220.108 01:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. That is a list of other terrorist groups, currently not designated as FTOs, but still under observation by various US counterterrorism depts, if you read the line in full. To back this up, an account of PIRA activity is listed in Chapter 5, dealing with European terrorism. The list at the end of the article, which I linked to, delineates FTO from TO, the difference being that one is a threat to US interests, the other is not. The current ceasefire is the reason why it is merely a TO (still involved with crime, according to the report) and not an FTO like its more active relatives. This is actually even clearer with respect to its predecessor report of 2004 (the same list appears but is titled "Other Selected Terrorist Organizations").
Furthermore, if the US State Govt is not a reliable source with regards to their own policy, than who or what exactly do you suggest is??? False accusations are not becoming.
Shall I amend the source link to include both the list AND the report on their activities within Chapter 5? Please make your response and undoubted objections clear, rather than leaving a vague reply and only later instigating reverts which you couldn't discuss at the time. Ta. 82.4.220.108 02:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The following groups of concern have not been designated as Foreign Terrorist Organizations under 8 USC Section 1189, although many have been designated under other U.S. Government counterterrorism authorities.
Firstly, I stand by the fact that the search function on the page turns up a date in 2007. Check it yourself, but please do not make false claims to the contrary. Secondly, you refer to the first PDF document, which was not the one I linked or referred to in the wikiarticle. A simple check of the edit history shows an htm file. Your "reason" for the revert is therefore nothing short of an obvious and blatant lie, and again a check of the edit will show that the file was in fact accurately dated for access and creation. Please do not attempt to fudge these two files in a poor attempt to slander me. Thirdly, and which you have tellingly ignored because it inconviently opposes your POV, is that the main text I refer to, being the most recent Country Report, clearly lists PIRA actions. I stated this above, that it is clearly visible in Chapter 5's report on European terrorism. Furthermore, a visit to the US National CounterTerrorism Center ( http://www.nctc.gov/) lists attacks in 2006 by the IRA. The Worldwide Incidents Tracking System lists two attacks in 2006 - the reason for this being that the terrorist group is still under global surveillance, ceasefire or no. So we have the NCTC, the most recent terrorism Country Report, and the most recent list of terrorist organisations ALL following the actions of the PIRA.
You've tried insults, lies, false accusations, you've claimed the US Govt is not reliable when quoting their own policy, so what's next? I suppose the NTC is unreliable too? Your position looks increasingly ridiculous in the face of more and more evidence, and certainly clearly evident of a lack of NPOV with regards to these groups.
I am more than happy to list these three sources as an amended and expanded footnote compared to my earlier, legitimate, edit. Furthermore, it would certainly be worthwhile, considering the time invested for what should have been a minor edit, to use these sources across the board with regards to these groups. I will, of course, give you opportunity to refute, although ignoring my reply, as you have done elsewhere, is only further evidence of your seeming bias. 82.4.220.108 17:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It is an htm file. It is dated at the top of the page. Anyone can see it in the edit. Your ignorance of three verifiable sources is patently ridiculous, but unfortunately this is not a joking matter since it relates to nothing less than propaganda.
I have fairly attempted to make clear the facts, even stating clearly that it is absent from the FTO list due to ceasefire. 82.4.220.108 17:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
That looks awfully like an htm link to me, dated at the top, not the dateless PDF you claim to have reverted. I also note you do not have the good courtesy to apologise and admit your untruth. You have also failed to address the issue - three sources, chained together.
A US report on terrorism, with their activities. Their appearance on a list of "other groups" that may be designated by other US CT authorities. A US CT website listing their actions as recent as 2006.
Straightforward logic - the US views them as a terrorist group. Not an FTO, certainly, but a terrorist group nonetheless. Even setting aside their appearance on the "Other Groups" list, the other two references stand. Hence the need for the distinction in the article (FTO/TO), which is why I did so and mentioned their ceasefire in order to maintain accuracy and NPOV.
You are unhappy that one source does not show the entire story - fair enough. I can list all three, as stated above and ignored by yourself. If you dislike that specific one, I can use the other two, although I find the one you're addressing to be critical to the difference between FTO and TO. 82.4.220.108 18:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
You accuse me of inserting an undated PDF file - I inserted a dated htm file. I have now shown you three sources, two of which don't even need either the PDF or the htm, and now you refuse to discuss them. Motive? 82.4.220.108 21:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Why misleadingly state it is an undated PDF? Why refuse to apologise for your error? Regardless -
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/enemy/index.htm where the source of the page indicates a creation date of 04/14/2006, please note "Read about specific terrorist groups." linked article http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/45323.pdf "Other Selected Terrorist Organizations" lists PIRA. Also, once again http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/ reports on terrorism, with specific regard to "Chapter 1 -- Legislative Requirements and Key Terms" defining key terms, "Chapter 5 -- Country Reports: Europe and Eurasia Overview" detailing PIRA activity, various quotes, most relevant being "maintained its capacity as a terrorist organization" and as mentioned previously "Chapter 8 -- Foreign Terrorist Organizations" with regards to the opinion of other US counterterrorist authorities, all of which come under a single remit. Please note difference between FTO and general terrorist organisation (see Chapter 1 and relevant links quoted within the report).
U.S. Counterterrorism Team member "National Counterterrorism Center" http://www.nctc.gov/ with respect to Worldwide Incidents Tracking System (WITS) http://wits.nctc.gov/ , which can be searched for IRA activity (as well as splinter groups) and returns results as recent as 2006, indicative that they fall within the sphere of interest of the NCTC/NCC, see earlier definitions.
I should think there's more than enough there. 82.4.220.108 22:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
28 April 2006 trumps any earlier dated documents. Sorry I don't search websites, provide a link or this discussion is over. One Night In Hackney 303 23:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I provided a good half dozen links there, most of which you could find by clicking the relevant subdivision of the reports on terrorism. In any case, your reply would indicate that I need only refer to two quotes. Firstly, "maintained its capacity as a terrorist organization" from "Chapter 5 -- Country Reports: Europe and Eurasia Overview" dated April 28, 2006. http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/64342.htm It belongs to the same report that you have just stated "trumps any earlier documents". The most recent article from WITS would be http://wits.nctc.gov/ViewIncident.do?icn=200697747 which indicates IRA activity is still being tracked by the National Counterterrorism Center. 82.4.220.108 00:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
"the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) maintained its capacity as a terrorist organization" - Quite clear that it is still classed as a terrorist organization, and again only terrorist organizations appear in these reports, as defined in Chapter 1. Second, the NCTC link makes it abundantly clear, by example, that they are still collating and researching IRA activities. To your other point, the IMC handles its own research, and its entirely possible for several agencies to draw different conclusions from the same evidence. Considering the perceived overlap between splinter groups, this isn't surprising. Its worth noting though that the "trump" document lists CIRA, PIRA, and RIRA separately, lists the non-ceasefire groups as FTOs, and the WITS database also makes a distinction. It seems the Americans can tell the groups apart easily enough.
82.4.220.108 00:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd certainly expect an editor to check the links. The quote is still fine. I assume you are implying that their capacity may have lowered post-2005, but that doesn't stop them being a terrorist organisation. 82.4.220.108 02:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I note you reverted it back the exact text of the Green Book, without clarifying who exactly "enemy personnel" are.
"We have enemies through ignorance, through our own fault or default and of course the main enemy is the establishment. "
"The establishment is all those who have a vested interest in maintaining the present status quo in politicians, media, judiciary, certain business elements and the Brit war machine comprising, the Brit Army, the U.D.R., R.U.C. (r) [reserve], Screws, Civilian Searchers. The cure for these armed branches of the establishment is well known and documented. But with the possible exceptions of the Brit Ministers in the 'Northern Ireland Office' and certain members of the judiciary, the overtly unarmed branches of the establishment are not so clearly identifiable to the people as our enemies as say armed Brits or R.U.C. "
You might want to see fit to add that to the article at some point. 82.4.220.108 22:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I would very much like to add clarification, as you well know, but you're also aware its hard to do so with people reverting on instinct. The quote I provided you is unnecessarily long, I think we can both agree. I do think that we should reach a quick consensus on a careful wording of "unarmed members of the establishment". That one line could be horribly misconstrued! It would save us editing back and forth and thus avoid unnecessary cluttering of the Edit record. Thanks! 82.4.220.108 18:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Your arbitrary definition, labelling it as British Army personnel, is completely at odds with the text quoted. Its certainly not breathtakingly clear, considering the media can hardly come under the remit of the British Army (except in only the most paranoid of minds). As stated above, exactly how much or how little do we add? Unarmed members of the establishment are mentioned in the quote, I'm giving you opportunity to clarify that this is primarily interpreted NOT to mean civilians. I assume that IS your POV? I don't see why you can't be civil about this. 82.4.220.108 00:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Considering my quote from the Green Book is entirely valid, and encompasses far more than just British Army personnel, I find it saddening, but at the same time hilarious, that you've invoked the word "troll". It's hardly my fault the Green Book lists the media, businesses, and the legal profession as "enemy personnel" - but hiding it from Wikipedia doesn't help you any. 82.4.220.108 01:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
"I claim"... no no no, they ARE groups the Green Book claims are the "enemy", as I quoted extensively above. As the article stands, "British Army" is just grossly misleading. We should be as clear as possible, and since you prefer to revert first and give reasons later, I think it would be wiser if you could suggest a more concise form of the above quote. Again, bear in mind it encompasses the media, judiciary, and politicians - so its most certainly not acceptable as it stands.
82.4.220.108 02:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
All. Firstly, I suggest "enemy personnel [British Army]" is to be removed as this is under dispute. It is a half truth, and misleading.
An amended quote, either inserted after 1. or after 5., stating something like "For the purposes of the Green Book, enemy personnel are broadly defined as opposing politicians and media groups, the judiciary, certain business elements in particular, and the British Army in general."
I've tried to clarify that the enemy are opposing politicians, etc, to avoid any potentially ridiculous misconceptions that ANY media figure or politician was a target. I believe that covers the main groups appropriately, although it would be better to find a way to combine judiciary with the prison service. Strictly speaking, I think we could agree the UDR has effectively ceased to be, and the RUC are also a defunct entity. Unless you wish to add something like "and former organisations such as UDR and RUC" just for full transparency. I am unaware if recent edits of the Book deem the RUC and PSNI synonymous - I think at the current time its rather a matter of opinion amongst certain elements, and probably not relevant to discussion regarding the original book.
Comments? 82.4.220.108 17:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The source states in clear terms who the enemy is - the above groups. I have quoted the text of the Green Book extensively. Please take adequate time to read the quotations. The "main enemy" is defined as "the establishment". "The establishment" is then set into separate groups.
Enemy personnel are those in the employ of the groups cited - this follows from the dictionary definition of the term. The groups need to be detailed for clarity, in order to ensure NPOV and the accuracy of the article. YOU may want to believe that the Green Book only lists the British Army as the enemy, but as the above quotes show, you are quite quite wrong.
Further, opposing politicians, media, members of the British legal system, prison system, etc are more than capable of withdrawing - to presumably be replaced by their Irish equivalents, and thus creating a united Ireland.
I am quoting from the Book, no more, no less. To use only one set of quotes, and corrupt or ignore another set, is only further evidence of a lack of NPOV by malicious omission of the facts. 82.4.220.108 17:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
"A war of attrition against enemy personnel" "the main enemy is the establishment". "The establishment is..." - see extended quote above.
All three quotes directly from the Green Book.
Personnel defined in the dictionary as those belonging to a group or organisation. Enemy personnel therefore being those people belonging to enemy groups or organisations. I should say its fairly straightforward from there. People working for the enemy, the main enemy is the establishment, the establishment is the following groups, list of groups. A war of attrition against establishment personnel, if you want an INCREDIBLY shortened version. 82.4.220.108 18:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I gave you exact quotes, from the Green Book, that set out the definition of the enemy and enemy personnel. They are neither fabricated, nor inaccurate. I suggest your dispute is with the source material. 82.4.220.108 21:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite follow - if you're unhappy with the shortened version I have suggested for conciseness, then the full quote should be used in its unaltered form, in an identical manner to its current appearance and interpretation on Wikipedia, and relevant publications such as "AN ALPHABETICAL LISTING OF WORD, NAME AND PLACE IN NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE LIVING LANGUAGE OF CONFLICT by Seamus Dunn and Helen Dawson (2000)" and "The IRA by Tim Pat Coogan (2000) fourth edition" (alternatively the 1993 third edition). 82.4.220.108 23:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It would say that it is relevant as the section currently stands - you can't really list their strategy without accurate definitions of the terms involved. It is for the reader to decide if they personally agree or disagree with the definitions used. 82.4.220.108 00:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Its a clear lie, by omission of fact - As detailed in the Green Book, as quoted above, as quoted in Wikipedia, as quoted in many published documents. 82.4.220.108 02:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Please carry on the discussion about the opponents here, as we may as well do everything in one place.
I've removed the allies as they were unsourced, and the majority were dubious. I'll take each in turn:
At best for all of them you're looking at loose affiliation rather than actually being an ally. I could possibly see Libya/Gadaffi meriting a mention in the infobox but I'm not even sure about that.
That said I'm open for discussion (ideally backed by sources) over whether any of them should go back.
Strength seems to be an arbitrary figure of ~1000. Not sure where that figure has come from, or when it applies to as there's no clarification. I'd have thought the best option would be to use the 8-10,000 total membership over the course of the PIRA's existence, rather than a pretty meaningless current figure assuming that's what the 1000 is. One Night In Hackney 303 05:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm having problems working out how to possibly add cites for the various media outlets listed after the sentence "It is generally called a terrorist organisation by the following media outlets". I could more than likely find a cite from one or more articles from each newspaper describing the PIRA as a terrorist organisation, but that doesn't prove "generally". Any attempt to say "well if they use it more than x% of the time" sounds horribly like original research and very difficult to source and I'm unhappy about simply listing a newspaper if we can find one example of them describing the PIRA as a terrorist organisation. Does anyone else think we might be better off losing that part, and concentrating on governments and law enforcement agencies? One Night In Hackney 303 11:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The article as it stands makes no mention of the IRA being involved in, or having been implicated in/accused of, drug dealing or trafficking. I have a feeling this is going to be an unpopular subject to add, so raising it here first. I've only done a quick search for sources, and this Congressional record about an article written by Dennis Eisenberg is the only thing I've come up with so far. Thoughts? Stu ’Bout ye! 11:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm going to try and come up with a wording before inserting it into the article:
As with loyalist paramilitaries, the Proisional IRA has been reported to have been involved in drug trafficking and dealing since its inception. However the level of their involvement is much less known than that of loyalists. In 1990 Bob Dornan quoted an article written by journalist Dennis Eisenberg in the United States House of Representatives. In the article Eisenberg claimed that " Yasser Arafat's PLO ........ uses its links with the Irish Republican Army (IRA) to rake in massive profits from sending drugs via Holland to its network of agents in Britain, West Germany, and Ireland for international distribution." The article also claimed the PLO and IRA were involved in a joint money laundering operation in Europe. [1] However Dorman is well known for making controversial statements and Eisenberg's article first appeared The World and I magazine, which has links to Sun Myung Moon. More recently the IRA has been accused of receiving money made through drug trafficking from FARC, in return for supplying training to the illegal Colombian organisation. One such report was written by Rachel Ehrenfeld in 2002. The Colombia Three were arrested in 2001 by the Colombian authorities. [2] Other newspaper reports have indicated drug dealing within Ireland. A February 1998 Sunday Times report stated "The IRA does not handle the drugs, but oversees the operation and takes a percentage from each deal." [3] A July 1999 report in the Washington Times claimed "the Provisional IRA has made significant inroads into the Dublin underworld of protection and drug-dealing rackets" [4] It is also claimed that the IRA were involved in trafficking to pay for arms importation in the 1980s, including the shipment aboard the Marita Ann in 1984. [5]
This wording could be added to the Fundraising via organised crime section. Any comments, suggestions or objections to the working please. I've balanced the Eisenberg claims. I also stress the above wording is a very rough first draft and I've only made a quick search for references, and only online ones at that. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
It is also claimed that the IRA were involved in trafficking to pay for arms importation in the 1980s, including the shipment aboard the Marita Ann in 1984.
I know this conversation is quite old now, but I thought it was worth mentioning that the renowned drug dealer Howard Marks claims to have had dealings with the IRA in this context and the wiki article about him currently links to this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.49.114 ( talk) 17:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
In the early 1990s, during the breakup of Yugoslavia, the IRA trained the fledgling Croatian Army in return for armaments is being added using this source, and I have removed it as original research. The majority of the article refers to the Real IRA, except for this sentence.
A spokesman said the general is believed to have received explosives training from Irish republicans in the 1990s
I have emphasised what the problem with it is, it does not say the PIRA were responsible and it certainly doesn't back up the text being added. Any further attempts to insert that information will be reverted. One Night In Hackney 303 13:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone here knows of any book that tells the story of IRA from the point of view of a militant? It could be some sort of a diary where someone who at some point belonged to the organization describes their tactis/skills strategy and how the operate on the ground level. I believe it would be a useful reference to add to the article, possibility to the see also or external links section. Maziotis 02:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
If you read the lede in a previous version of our article on the Provisional Irish Republican Army at
you will see that the abbreviation PIRA is accurate, although many shorten this to the IRA, the Provos, "the Army" or the "'RA".
However, just because folks are sloppy, lazy and sometimes misleading does not mean our encyclopaedia should be too. Most folks I know (incorrectly) term a "ballpoint pen" a BIRO. Not all ballpoint pens are BIRO's and not all splinter groups or political sects are the Irish Republican Army that my illustrious relation commanded.
It's necessary when discussing terrorist groups to precisely identify the perpetrator - especially when that has been established by confession or judicial process.
I realise that there is a determined clique of biased editors on Wikipedia that wish to obfuscate and, like Alice, change words and abbreviations to mean what they want them to mean in articles related to Ireland, but Wikipedia's purpose is to inform and educate not confuse and fail to make distinctions between different historic organisations ... Gaimhreadhan (kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 05:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
It has been my experience that the term PIRA tends to be primarily used by the British Army and the Northern Ireland police. I suspect that it may have originally been coined by them, but I haven't been able to locate a clear reference yet. (Military people seem to have a penchant for acronymising everything.) Anyway, the net effect is that the article has a slightly biased feel about it, since "PIRA" tends to be a rather loaded term. I would suggest adding an explanatory footnote to that effect, attached to the first use of the term at the head of the article. Or maybe we could add a sentence or two in the Categorisation section. JXM 17:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an enclyclopedia. If there is any danger of confusion, a full version of the name should be used when it is first introduced and linked - Provisional Irish Republican Army. It shouldn't be piped to read IRA. I would agree the most usual abbreviation for the Provisional IRA is just IRA. Where there is no danger of confusion, this could appear in brackets after the first (unpiped) link. Where a danger of confusion does exist, then PIRA should be used. POV doesn't come into it. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 14:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
[Deindent] Sorry, Brixton, I'm confused. When you say they became the IRA instead of being the Provisional IRA - does that mean they became the Official IRA? Or is there a group out there calling itself "The IRA ("Accept no substitutes!")? Do you mean the
Conclusion: Disambugation and accuracy are good things. Moral: Always look on the bright side of life. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 14:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I have done some research, using the UK version of Google to avoid any possible Irish bias.
Excluding Wikipedia, the first relevant hits for "PIRA" are on page 3 of the search results, and they are both Bebo which doesn't count. The first real hit is on page 8 and is the BBC.
A similar search for "IRA" returns 3 hits on page 1 (tellingly including the BBC result that appears on page 8 for PIRA) and 4 hits on page 2.
That proves how rarely the term is used. The argument about IRA confusing African or Indian readers holds no water. Surely any use of the acronym would confuse them? So we couldn't use the acronym in any other article either, whether it's related to the Provos or not? There are many common acronyms, and unless there is a real risk of confusion we should stick to the one people will be familiar with, which is the commonly used IRA not the obscure PIRA. Brixton Busters 06:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Brixton, the above discussion in no way creates or reflects a consensus to replace all PIRA abbreviations with IRA; nor one to drop the word Provisional from articles involving the PIRA. Please stop misrepresenting it as such in articles. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 10:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Nothing to do with the debate, I'm afraid, but just for the sake of accuracy, IRA is not an acronym, it is an abbreviation while PIRA is an acronym. Rgds. - Bill Reid | Talk 13:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
If an acroynm is a word formed from the initial letters of a series of words how is PIRA one and IRA not just wondering.-- BigDunc 14:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Because IRA is not used as a word, it is always spelled out but PIRA can be said as a word just as WYSIWYG is. Rgds. -- Bill Reid | Talk 14:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
There appear to be two sides to this argument, which seem to be: 1. The Provisional Irish Republican Army is most commonly known as "the IRA" - therefore, when abbreviated, it should always be abbreviated to IRA; 2. The Provisional Irish Republican Army, while most commonly known as "the IRA", is only one of a number of organisations using "Irish Republican Army" as part of its name - therefore, to avoid any ambiguity, it should always be abbreviated to PIRA.
A possible compromise:
Thoughts? Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 22:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
No private agreement can ever supersede the fundamental policies of our encyclopaedia. Nobody has yet adequately explained why, when the official reports of both the governments in these islands and that of the US State department consistently use clear acronyms such as PIRA, OIRA, RIRA and CIRA, we should use the ambiguous (but politically advantageous to the Provos) abbreviation IRA.
There is currently an ongoing Arbcom on these articles so I suggest that a proposal is made there to override our standing policies if editors don't wish to use the full name of Provisional IRA or the clear and unambiguous PIRA abbreviation.
One of the clearest examples of official language (as opposed to sloppy journalism) is the Fifteenth report of the Independent Monitoring Commission issued on 25 April 2007 and available in PDF form here. W. Frank talk ✉ 16:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I guess you didn't scroll down to the right section then?
And don't give me any chestnut about them using PIRA once in the intro, they use IRA all the rest of the time. One Night In Hackney 303 17:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOT#ADVOCATE is official policy on the English Wikipedia.
It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. When editing this page, and other articles relating to the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA), please ensure that your revision reflects our policy that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda. Therefore, Wikipedia content is not:
1. Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment of any kind, commercial, political, religious, or otherwise. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favourite views.
2. Opinion pieces on current affairs or politics. Although current affairs and politics may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (i.e. passionately advocate their pet point of view), Wikipedia is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced so as to put entries for current affairs in a reasonable perspective, and represent a neutral point of view. Furthermore, Wikipedia authors should strive to write articles that will not quickly become obsolete.
3. Self-promotion. It can be tempting to write about yourself or projects you have a strong personal involvement in. However, do remember that the standards for encyclopaedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which is difficult when writing about yourself and your friends. See Wikipedia:Autobiography, Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.
Currently we have a team of editors (including, but not limited to: User:Brixton Busters, User:BigDunc, User:Domer48, User:Padraig, User:Vintagekits) that edit a consistent set of our articles in such a way as to introduce a consistent bias and ambiguity.
These editors act in relay to avoid technically breaching 3RR and consistently seek to push a minority POV endorsed by PIRA and their political wing that is to the political electoral advantage of provisional SF.
The pattern to these team editors contributions is as follows:
(1) There have been, and are currently, many flavours of political organisations including in their name the letters "IRA". These team editors consistently seek to muddy and obfuscate the distinctions between the pre 1920 IRA, the Continuity IRA (CIRA), the Official IRA (OIRA), the Provisional IRA (PIRA), the Real IRA (RIRA), and other sects. They do this by trying to obliterate any reference that clarifies that PIRA is meant in the article preferring the wholly ambiguous "IRA" instead. The political purpose of these team edits is to reduce the political significance of the competing groupings.
(2) These team editors consistently seek to muddy and obfuscate the distinctions between the pre 1920 IRA, CIRA, OIRA, PIRA, RIRA and other sects. They do this in order to mislead our readers into believing that PIRA is the direct political heir of the pre 1920 IRA and achieve greater "electoral respectability" for provisional SF thereby. This is why the team editors engage in revert warring to try to obliterate any reference that clarifies that PIRA is meant in the article and instead insert the wholly ambiguous "IRA" instead. The political purpose of these team edits is again to reduce the political significance of the competing groupings and enhance that of current political groupings sympathetic to PIRA.
(3) They seek to remove any reference to terrorism and the victims of terrorism – except when they are "PIRA-approved victims" as in our Bloody Sunday (1972) article – as in our Bloody Friday (1972) article. Compare and contrast our articles with PIRA involvement and our articles with Islamic terrorist] involvement. Note the lede in World Trade Center bombing where the team's interest and influence is extremely low and the howls of anguish when that "naughty word" is used correctly to reflect the overwhelming available authoritative sources with regard to PIRA actions where non-combatants were murdered and mutilated.
According to Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."
Have a read WP:NAM W.Frank and chill out its not a conspiracy against WP or you. BigDunc 14:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
This:
An internal British army document released under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 in 2007 stated that the British Army had failed to defeat the IRA. The document examined 37 years of British troop deployment and was complied following a 6 month study by a team of three officers carried out in earily 2006 for General Sir Mike Jackson, the British Army's Chief of the General Staff.
is somewhat misleading; it gives an absolute impression and displays bias. A better rewrite than my previous one, although still not quite right, IMO. I've changed it slightly to reflect that the "failed to defeat the IRA" part is given as an opinion, not a statement. (Unsigned Revision of 18:39, 15 July 2007 (UCT) by User:Evilteuf)
"...until the Belfast Agreement, sought to end Northern Ireland's status within the United Kingdom and bring about a United Ireland by force of arms and political persuasion." Just wondering as the IRA are not disbanded are there aims not still the same as before the Good Friday Agreement, maybe not at war but still around. Anyone any views on this and should it be changed. -- BigDunc 11:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Gaimhreadhan have you got any refrence that states that since the Belfat Agreement the IRA have changed there aims I dont think they have but that is a POV still think it should be changed as it imploys that they have. BigDunc 13:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Could editors please be mindful of the above when posting edits. Thanks -- Domer48 13:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
It is already in the relevant category, "Proscribed paramilitary organizations in Northern Ireland". Why is it being added to the parent category? Brixton Busters 15:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Designated terrorist organizations are non-governmental organizations that currently are designated by a state as terrorist organizations.
Articles should be included on this page only if there is sufficient sourced verifiable information on their article page to demonstrate that they have been designated as a terrorist organization by a suitable body.
"According to The Provisional IRA (Eamon Mallie and Patrick Bishop), roughly 8,000 people passed through the ranks of the IRA during the 30 year Troubles, many of them leaving after arrest, "retirement" or disillusionment". That book was published in the late 80s (87? 88?), so cannot support that particular piece of text. Brixton Busters 15:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
It's npt dubvious, those were the estimates of those authors up to that time. If you have more up to date figures then lets have them. Jdorney 09:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
PIRA is not currently listed as a " Foreign Terrorist Organization" (FTO) by the United States of America since it does not currently threaten (and has not in the last 5 years) [7] the security of U.S. nationals or the national security or the economic interests of the U.S.
The US legislation (see this subsection of our U.S. State Department list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations#Legal Criteria for Designation article) makes clear that if a foreign terrorist organisation does not threaten US interests then it will not be designated as a FTO by the US.
This web page makes clear that PIRA does not (and has not since 2000) threatened US interests: http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/terrorist-groups.cfm (look in the Northern Ireland section - you'll also note the use of "PIRA" to distinguish ambiguity)
The relevant entry for PIRA there reads: "MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: None." W. Frank talk ✉ 16:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
This deserves a new section. I will be, possibly temporarily, removing the FTO mentions and associated category. While doing research for a source to aid W. Frank's quest to state why the IRA are no longer designated as an FTO I made a relevant discovery.
So, have the IRA ever been designated as an FTO? Let us start from the beginning before adding back this now possibly irrelevant text. Were they designated? If so, when? Also, a date/reason they ceased to be designated would be useful as well, assuming they were designated in the first place. Brixton Busters 11:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm tempted to propose merging IRA Quartermaster General into this page. There's hardly any useful info there which couldn't be easily added to tne main page. Thoughts?? JXM 16:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 18:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Reference 7 quotes Statutory Rules and Orders, 1939, No. 162: "It is hereby declared that the organisation styling itself the Irish Republican Army (also the I.R.A. and Oglaigh na hÉireann) is an unlawful organisation." This is explicit recognition by the Irish Government of the use of the title by the IRA. Furthermore, it makes the organisation unlawful, not its use of the title. Both these ststements are in fact untrue. Certain members of the Irish Government and/or the Irish Army have expressed their disapproval of the use of the title by the IRA(s), but there is no government policy, and certainly no law, regarding it. Scolaire 11:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed that sentence, and similar sentences in Óglaigh na hÉireann and Irish Defence Forces. Scolaire 09:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
According to Seán Mac Stíofáin [8], the Provisional IRA was not formed until after Provisional Sinn Féin, i.e. January 1970:
The Provisional Army Council was formed within the existing IRA in December 1969. Scolaire 14:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Although it's allegedly sourced, it's completely wrong. I have a copy of the book in front on me, and it says:
There had been fewer opportunities for the movement to develop in the South; there had been only local government elections since the country went to the polls in December 1981. In that contest, even though it came within a few months of the ending of the hunger strikes, Sinn Fein had performed dismally, collecting only five per cent of the vote.
Nothing to do with the General Election, changed accordingly. One Night In Hackney 303 06:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
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