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"loosely federated kinships" or "kingships" ? which ?
The first section says that the provinces have no legal status and this may be correct in the sense that there are no provincial governments, legal jurisdictions, police forces, etc. But this presents a slightly false picture. The situation is a far cry for example from the way in which the historical French provinces have been eradicated. The Irish provinces continue to be used for organisational purposes by various statutory bodies. To give just two examples, the Central Statistics Office presents most (possibly all) of its census data broken down by province, in addition to breaking down the figures by local authority [1], and the Met Office provides separate forecasts and climate data for the provinces [2]. The point I'm trying to make I suppose is that the provinces are still very 'real' in the day-to-day administration of Ireland and they're not purely a historical and sporting notion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidmccormack ( talk • contribs) 02:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC).
I presume the modern province boundaries are not any older than the county boundaries? Morwen - Talk 11:46, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Maybe....
I think the image on here isn't quite right - it shows Longford as part of Connacht, whereas the individual province pages show it as part of Leinster. sjorford 13:02, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Certainly. Longford is and has always been one of the twelve counties of Leinster.-- File Éireann 21:42, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Question: why is the "red hand" open handed in the flag shown on this page? Shouldn't it match this flag? Is this a mistake? -- JW1805 15:25, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
"during Ireland's golden age".... the igorant amongst us (i.e. me) would like to know when that was, at the moment it is too ambigious for the lay reader. Pcb21| Pete 14:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
"When under Gaelic rule, Ireland was divided into provinces": is there any evidence that the word "province" was used before the Norman invasion? Each one had a king, so the natural English word is "kingdom". -- Henrygb 16:04, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Most of the red hand at the centre of the ulster flag has been removed if you follow the link through to the file: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg ( 80.189.121.40 20:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC))
Are there any maps we can use that would should an approximation of all five fifths of Ireland, before the Province of Meath was assimilated? I found this, which might be close. Obviously we have to avoid WP:OR, though maps could surely be created given some source with a written description of the province's extant. -- Setanta 09:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Needs citations, one is not enough. 24.195.129.65 ( talk) 00:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Its quite misleading to state that Midhe gradually merged with Leinster. In fact the whole article seems to ignore the fact that after the English conquest of Ireland - it was the English administration that dictated the boundaries and county composition of the provinces. Did anyone ever wonder why no county (all English created) straddles two or more provinces? Anyone never wonder why Louth was removed from Ulster and made part of Leinster? Just like what is now County Cavan was removed from Connaght and merged with Ulster? etc. etc. The Irish provinces are of Irish origin but of English redesign. Mabuska (talk) 20:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi i am the editor of the previous flag and i would like to like to submit the following new flag of the four provinces for use, it incorporates a new updated ulster and connacht flag which are currently under discussion and follows the divison used in the old flag although different variations do exist. Caomhan27 ( talk) 21:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I assume they are in Connacht (despite the nearest land being County Clare). The map on this page shows them to be in Connacht, the map on the Munster page includes them as Munster and the map on the Connacht page does not include them as part of Connacht. 121.217.219.110 ( talk) 02:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Or more in effect "historical" over "tradtional".
Whilst your edit is simply you continuing to be disruptive, I may as well indulge you:
How exactly is your edit " "rv to better version" and " I think the previous sentence was more accurate"?
The opening line of this article was fraught with several issues which I mended and you reverted several days later after going through my edit contributions. Despite that explain to me how is the old version better? Let me break it down for you why it's not:
So, tell me how exactly your preferred version is better? Mabuska (talk) 13:01, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think that the article as it was before the current flurry has been improved by any of the edits since, and I think 79.97.222.210 was right to revert to that version. Specifically, I think "There are traditionally four Provinces of Ireland", while it does contain the title, is awkward and not particularly informative. "Ireland has historically been divided into four provinces" properly sets the context for the article. It is also, of course, true. It was divided into four provinces for the best part of a thousand years. The sentence immediately following informs us that, before that, it was divided into five provinces. Scolaire ( talk) 13:54, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Out of curiousity, of these facts that "we know to be true" what was the fifth province that the Irish word cuige infers? Are you sure it's Meath? Also what parts of Meath became part of Ulster? I know of a part but not parts. The lede as is, is inaccurate and severely lacking. In regards to the demise of the Gaelic Era, it is regarded as ending with the Flight of the Earls which led to the end of the Gaelic system in Ulster, the last bastion of it in Ireland. Mabuska (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Any of the versions discussed above seem better than the current opening of the lede which says that there have been these four since 800AD and immediately contradicts itself. Anyone with some knowledge of discussions on this page care to restore one of the older versions? -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 13:06, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps a new section of this article titled "Fifth Province in popular diaspora culture", WITH CITATIONS, is warranted.
"Fifth Province" is the name of Irish-themed pubs in Chicago, USA, and Melbourne, Australia, and possibly elsewhere, too. Implicit in various websites (e.g., http://www.nyu.edu/as/irelandhouse/fifthprovince/ ) is that in this usage, "Fifth Province" refers both to the Irish diaspora and to a mythical province in addition to the current actual four provinces of Ireland. Other diaspora websites posit that the fifth province is Meath/Mide/middle, despite the history detailed in the present WP article.
I myself am not competent to write such a section, having no known Irish ancestry, and little knowledge of Irish history or of diaspora culture (aside from having spent most of my life in Chicago and Boston, listening to Clancy Brothers records as a child, and learning about Evacuation Day (Massachusetts).). Acwilson9 ( talk) 04:08, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
The above statement is not accurate! [1] The present Gaelic term for 'province is 'cúige', pronounced koo-ig-eh, and means "the fifth part", because Ireland was divided into five separate provinces in Roman and medieval times. The fifth province known as 'Midhe', meaning "middle" or "centre", is now part of modern day Leinster. Ériugena ( talk) 21:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
References
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
"loosely federated kinships" or "kingships" ? which ?
The first section says that the provinces have no legal status and this may be correct in the sense that there are no provincial governments, legal jurisdictions, police forces, etc. But this presents a slightly false picture. The situation is a far cry for example from the way in which the historical French provinces have been eradicated. The Irish provinces continue to be used for organisational purposes by various statutory bodies. To give just two examples, the Central Statistics Office presents most (possibly all) of its census data broken down by province, in addition to breaking down the figures by local authority [1], and the Met Office provides separate forecasts and climate data for the provinces [2]. The point I'm trying to make I suppose is that the provinces are still very 'real' in the day-to-day administration of Ireland and they're not purely a historical and sporting notion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidmccormack ( talk • contribs) 02:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC).
I presume the modern province boundaries are not any older than the county boundaries? Morwen - Talk 11:46, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Maybe....
I think the image on here isn't quite right - it shows Longford as part of Connacht, whereas the individual province pages show it as part of Leinster. sjorford 13:02, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Certainly. Longford is and has always been one of the twelve counties of Leinster.-- File Éireann 21:42, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Question: why is the "red hand" open handed in the flag shown on this page? Shouldn't it match this flag? Is this a mistake? -- JW1805 15:25, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
"during Ireland's golden age".... the igorant amongst us (i.e. me) would like to know when that was, at the moment it is too ambigious for the lay reader. Pcb21| Pete 14:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
"When under Gaelic rule, Ireland was divided into provinces": is there any evidence that the word "province" was used before the Norman invasion? Each one had a king, so the natural English word is "kingdom". -- Henrygb 16:04, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Most of the red hand at the centre of the ulster flag has been removed if you follow the link through to the file: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg ( 80.189.121.40 20:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC))
Are there any maps we can use that would should an approximation of all five fifths of Ireland, before the Province of Meath was assimilated? I found this, which might be close. Obviously we have to avoid WP:OR, though maps could surely be created given some source with a written description of the province's extant. -- Setanta 09:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Needs citations, one is not enough. 24.195.129.65 ( talk) 00:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Its quite misleading to state that Midhe gradually merged with Leinster. In fact the whole article seems to ignore the fact that after the English conquest of Ireland - it was the English administration that dictated the boundaries and county composition of the provinces. Did anyone ever wonder why no county (all English created) straddles two or more provinces? Anyone never wonder why Louth was removed from Ulster and made part of Leinster? Just like what is now County Cavan was removed from Connaght and merged with Ulster? etc. etc. The Irish provinces are of Irish origin but of English redesign. Mabuska (talk) 20:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi i am the editor of the previous flag and i would like to like to submit the following new flag of the four provinces for use, it incorporates a new updated ulster and connacht flag which are currently under discussion and follows the divison used in the old flag although different variations do exist. Caomhan27 ( talk) 21:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I assume they are in Connacht (despite the nearest land being County Clare). The map on this page shows them to be in Connacht, the map on the Munster page includes them as Munster and the map on the Connacht page does not include them as part of Connacht. 121.217.219.110 ( talk) 02:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Or more in effect "historical" over "tradtional".
Whilst your edit is simply you continuing to be disruptive, I may as well indulge you:
How exactly is your edit " "rv to better version" and " I think the previous sentence was more accurate"?
The opening line of this article was fraught with several issues which I mended and you reverted several days later after going through my edit contributions. Despite that explain to me how is the old version better? Let me break it down for you why it's not:
So, tell me how exactly your preferred version is better? Mabuska (talk) 13:01, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think that the article as it was before the current flurry has been improved by any of the edits since, and I think 79.97.222.210 was right to revert to that version. Specifically, I think "There are traditionally four Provinces of Ireland", while it does contain the title, is awkward and not particularly informative. "Ireland has historically been divided into four provinces" properly sets the context for the article. It is also, of course, true. It was divided into four provinces for the best part of a thousand years. The sentence immediately following informs us that, before that, it was divided into five provinces. Scolaire ( talk) 13:54, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Out of curiousity, of these facts that "we know to be true" what was the fifth province that the Irish word cuige infers? Are you sure it's Meath? Also what parts of Meath became part of Ulster? I know of a part but not parts. The lede as is, is inaccurate and severely lacking. In regards to the demise of the Gaelic Era, it is regarded as ending with the Flight of the Earls which led to the end of the Gaelic system in Ulster, the last bastion of it in Ireland. Mabuska (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Any of the versions discussed above seem better than the current opening of the lede which says that there have been these four since 800AD and immediately contradicts itself. Anyone with some knowledge of discussions on this page care to restore one of the older versions? -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 13:06, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps a new section of this article titled "Fifth Province in popular diaspora culture", WITH CITATIONS, is warranted.
"Fifth Province" is the name of Irish-themed pubs in Chicago, USA, and Melbourne, Australia, and possibly elsewhere, too. Implicit in various websites (e.g., http://www.nyu.edu/as/irelandhouse/fifthprovince/ ) is that in this usage, "Fifth Province" refers both to the Irish diaspora and to a mythical province in addition to the current actual four provinces of Ireland. Other diaspora websites posit that the fifth province is Meath/Mide/middle, despite the history detailed in the present WP article.
I myself am not competent to write such a section, having no known Irish ancestry, and little knowledge of Irish history or of diaspora culture (aside from having spent most of my life in Chicago and Boston, listening to Clancy Brothers records as a child, and learning about Evacuation Day (Massachusetts).). Acwilson9 ( talk) 04:08, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
The above statement is not accurate! [1] The present Gaelic term for 'province is 'cúige', pronounced koo-ig-eh, and means "the fifth part", because Ireland was divided into five separate provinces in Roman and medieval times. The fifth province known as 'Midhe', meaning "middle" or "centre", is now part of modern day Leinster. Ériugena ( talk) 21:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
References