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A great deal of the misattributed information I have been deleting seems to have actually originated from the website http://piereligion.org/, which is definitely not a reliable source by any means. For one thing, the website is written from the perspective of a modern worshipper and is extremely biased to say the least. As just an example of this bias, it dismisses the widely-accepted Trifunctional hypothesis out of hand as nothing more than "Catholic Fascism." Also, the website is not very careful with its information. It claims that "at least 40" Proto-Indo-European deities can be reconstructed. Mallory and Adams 2006, however, only mentions about half that many and even then dismisses over half of the deities it does mention as being too speculative. Similarly, the website, for some reason, associates modern folklore traditions dating back only a few hundred years with Proto-Indo-European religion. For instance, it associates the English " John Barleycorn" folk song, the earliest version of which comes from no earlier than the fourteenth century, with an alleged PIE harvest god. Future editors should be warned against taking the information on the website at face value. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 02:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I have found yet another very good reason to distrust piereligion.org's reliability. On one page ( http://piereligion.org/eastereggs.html), the site seems to argue that Easter eggs are a continuation of Proto-Indo-European tradition, based primarily on the modern widespread popularity of the custom, in spite of the fact that it is widely known that the custom of dying Easter eggs is not especially ancient and originated as a custom among early Greek Orthodox Christians living in Mesopotamia during the first millennium A.D. As a matter of fact, almost the entire section on "Food, Festivals, and Farming" ( http://piereligion.org/festivals.html) seems to be almost exclusively a polemic arguing that modern holiday traditions are actually derived from Proto-Indo-European paganism, a ludicrous notion, considering that nearly all modern holiday traditions only go back a few centuries at the most. It has an entire page dedicated to Halloween songs and stories ( http://piereligion.org/hallsongs.html), which certainly have nothing to do with the actual reconstructed religion of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 23:32, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Katolophyromai, did you actually read the page on the "Halloween songs and stories"? While it mentions a few ideas about how various traditions are connected, most of it is devoted to the author's favorite spooky or haunting music and stories to hear in the Halloween season. He/she is giving recommendations to readers. He/she is not suggesting that (among others) Orpheus in the Underworld (1858) by Jacques Offenbach, St. James Infirmary Blues (1928) by Louis Armstrong, and Minnie the Moocher (1931) by Cab Calloway are representations of Proto-Indo-European religion. Dimadick ( talk) 17:34, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree that this site shouldn't be used anywhere on Wikipedia. There are plenty of solid sources out there we could be employing instead of this. :bloodofox: ( talk) 19:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
This article contains weird things like Dyḗus Pḥɑtḗr which disagree with the notation found in other PIE-related articles, such as PIE phonology. For clarity, the same notation should be used in all articles. Is it ok to update these? CodeCat ( talk) 17:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
As stated above, chariots were a significant part of some expansions of Indo-European branches, and came to have symbolic importance in some societies speaking languages belonging to various Indo-European branches, but chariots and spoked wheels were invented too late to exist during the "period of Indo-European unity" or the earliest expansions (when the only wheeled or horse-drawn vehicles that existed were simple basic wooden carts or wagons with wheels made of solid planks fastened side-by-side). Statements in the article which would seem to contradict this should be modified or removed... AnonMoos ( talk) 08:46, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Their actions reverberated across the Eurasian continent. The northern forest frontier began to dissolve east of the Urals as it had earlier west of the Urals; metallurgy and some aspects of Sintashta settlement designs spread north through the Siberian forests. Chariotry spread west through the Ukrainian steppe MVK culture into southeastern Europe's Monteoru (phase Ic1-Ib), Vatin, and Otomani cultures, perhaps with the satǝm dialects that later popped up in Armenian, Albanian, and Phrygian, all of which are thought to have evolved in southeastern Europe. (Pre-Greek must have departed before this, as it did not share the satǝm innovations.)
"Proto-Indo-European religion is the belief system adhered to by the Proto-Indo-Europeans." Religion, belief system? PiCo ( talk) 08:09, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: MOVE Donald Albury 14:01, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
I have two main reasons for requesting this move:
I would have suggested this move over a year ago, but I did not think it would have any chance of going through because people often associate the word "mythology" with the colloquial sense of the word "myth," meaning "a story that is not true," but, as it is used by scholars, the word "myth" does not imply truth or falsehood, but rather merely refers to a traditional story with cultural or religious significance. See, for instance, our own article myth, which defines the subject as follows: "Myth is a folklore genre consisting of narratives that play a fundamental role in society, such as foundational tales. Myths often consist of sacred narratives about gods." Using the word "religion" in this sense to refer to mythology is just plain euphemistic. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 16:40, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Requested 3O on this ...
User:Katolophyromai starts an edit war. Added new section Proto-Indo-European_religion#Primordial principle on the primordial principle above the deities in proto-Indo-European religion. User:Katolophyromai declares sources as invalid.
My suggestions for accomodating this difference is :
1 ) Verify if the sources are sufficient to prove that the Three Fates in Indo-European mythology were above the gods in the hierarchy. My personal opinion is yes, the sources are sufficient.
2) do the Three Fates represent a Primordial Principle. Yes, this can still be seen in the Eastern triads Brahman - Vishnu - Shiva,...
i have to point out that i think that
User:Katolophyromai is corrupted by his christian faith. An impersonal Primordial principle above the Skyfathers very likely violates his personal worldview, however his personal worldview does not count here ... I think it is strange behavior when checks at 6 a.m. ( before work ? ) if someone wrote something 'evil' in wikipedia — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
141.20.6.67 (
talk) 17:33, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Could you explain why the sources are not reliable because this is one of the key points... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.138.216 ( talk) 18:38, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
at :bloodofox: The norns are higher than Odin, the norns carve runes in Yggdrasil ( the runes represent fate ) and Odin feels envy because of this. This is why he hangs himself on Yggdrasil what gives him insight in the secrets of the runes. However he still can only see the runes ( precognition , ... ) he can not carve them in Yggdrasil, only the norns are capable of carving the runes and so have a strong influence also on Odin's fate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.138.216 ( talk • contribs)
In any European and Eastern mythology that descends from the native proto-Indo-European mythology the theistic pantheon and lower spheres are governed by a triad of fate goddesses, or a similar triad of divine beings." This is flatly contradicted by West (the purported source for this statement), who says on page 379, "I do not know of any Indo-Iranian evidence for this idea, but it is found all over Europe, as well as in Bronze Age Anatolia." Clearly, this means they are not found in every "European and Eastern mythology that descends from the native proto-Indo-European mythology." Furthermore, West calls these three goddesses "Fates"; he never once refers to them as anything resembling "primordial principle." Finally, he does not discuss anything about them being superior to the highest gods; he does not support the idea, nor does he dismiss it, because he simply never mentions it.
The highest-ranking triad represents the concept of a universal principle of natural order that has been compared to similar concepts in other cultures like the Vedic Rta, the Avestan Asha ( Arta)," is entirely uncited and uses weasel words.
West's statement "I do not know of any Indo-Iranian evidence for this idea, but it is found all over Europe, as well as in Bronze Age Anatolia." possibly refers to fate goddesses. However there is also the Indo-European triad, in case of the Indo-Iranian religions it is Ṛta - Mitra- Varuna and Zurvan - Ahura Mazda - Angra Mainyu. Note that the concept of Zurvan is equivalent to Brahman and other concepts of a universal balance / nonduality like i.e. Maat and also linked to time like the Norse Norns.
For the female variant of the triad Brahman - Vishnu - Shiva see Tridevi#As_the_feminine_Trimurti however it is not important if the deities are male or female, crucial is the principle they represents ( Mahakali is also linked to time ). The superordinate principle is also the link between the Fates and the Eastern triads. Nowhere in the section i support that the triads are equivalent to the Fates, they only represent the same principle and i do not care if West says that the triads represent a principle or not, they simply do like any other mythological content.
Mythologies are models for description of the world like modern physics and natural sciences and so their content represents principles of nature or social interaction.
On Quintus Smyrnaeus :
In Wikipedia:Identifying_and_using_primary_sources#Uses_in_fields_other_than_history is said nothing about not to use primary sources. And as said in mythology primary sources are the best sources ( like in case of mythology ) :
Primary sources can be reliable, and they can be used. Sometimes, a primary source is even the best possible source, such as when you are supporting a direct quotation. In such cases, the original document is the best source because the original document will be free of any errors or misquotations introduced by subsequent sources.
On the accuracy of the statement in Quintus Smyrnaeus also cf Moirai#cite_note-Prometh.515-6 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.20.6.99 ( talk) 10:43, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
In a strict sense you are correct with the usage of sources that make statements about Greek and Roman mythology in context of Indo-European mythology. However it is very likey that the concepts, like a Supreme Triad was inherited from the preceeding Indo-European mythology because it is equal in all ancient European, Iranian and Indian cultures.
So you do not declare the sources as completely invalid, except Germanicmythology.com.
However i have to say that the content i cited from this is trivial knowledge when you are familiar with Germanic mythology and you find this in various other internet sources because, as said, it is trivial, see above in this talk.
The link between triskelion and Gankyil is in the article Triskelion i simply copied it from there.
For now i see point 1 ) as solved, the sources are not generally invalid ( except Germanicmythology.com ), the issue is that they can not be used here because they do not refer explicitely to Indo-European mythology. Is that correct ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.20.6.99 ( talk) 10:25, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
The critical sentence is marked bold :
(in chapter Nature deities)
In 1855, Adalbert Kuhn suggested that the Proto-Indo-Europeans may have believed in a set of helper deities, whom he reconstructed based on the Germanic elves and the Hindu ribhus.[79][80] Though this proposal is often mentioned in academic writings, very few scholars actually accept it.[81] There may also have been a female cognate akin to the Greco-Roman nymphs, Slavic vilas, the Huldra of Germanic folklore, and the Hindu Apsaras.[82]
source [81] is : Alaric Hall: Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity, it is accessible here : https://www.academia.edu/822022/Elves_in_Anglo-Saxon_England_Matters_of_Belief_Health_Gender_and_Identity
Any appearence of the term 'Indo-European' in Alaric Hall: Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity is not related to the statement in the article, how can it source the statement that the Proto-Indo-Europeans did not believe in helper deities then ?
You can search the entire document with the shortcuts Ctrl+F and Ctrl+G. A statement that is possibly meant is that the earliest source for medieval [!] beliefs about elves is the Wið_færstice of which Alaric Hall states on page 109-110 of Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity' :
" How old Wið færstice is is hard to judge. Commentators once considered it incoherent and fragmentary, a perspective abetted by their insistence on dissecting it into ‘pagan’ and ‘Christian’ parts. However, critics of the 1970s and 1980s developed the early revisionism of Skemp to argue for its coherence of composition, a position which I accept, and will to some extent consolidate. Although its origins could be disparate, Wið færstice is a coherent text. " source : https://www.academia.edu/822022/Elves_in_Anglo-Saxon_England_Matters_of_Belief_Health_Gender_and_Identity , p. 109
"
The age of "Wið færstice" has been hard to judge. Considering all of the available evidence, Medieval literature specialist Alaric Hall deemed it probable that the charm was a "cultural artefact" from the late tenth century.
"
source :
Wið_færstice#Date
Whoever introduced the source Alaric Hall: Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity: Could you specify a page ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.234.254.155 ( talk) 09:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
May I submit for insertion a myth of "The White Horse"? There seems to be a consistency to the imagery: Castor and Pollux are called "riders of white horses", and so are their twin half-brothers Amphion and Zethus; the Dioskouroi take part in the Rape of the Leukippides (daughters of Leukippus, i.e., the White-Horse); Pausanias describes an Iranian worship of white-horses, etc.18:01, 21 March 2020 (UTC) -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:5CE7:8E72:3D74:F34B:8E7C:DBB7 ( talk)
In the Kresnik (deity) article, there is reference that this Slovene (Slavic?) deity may have thunderer characteristics, specially in a legend where he fights a cthonic snake-like foe. See: Šmitek, Zmago (1998): Kresnik: An Attempt at Mythological Reconstruction. In: Studia Mythologica Slavica, Vol 1, 1998, 93-118. 20:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC) 2804:14D:5CE7:8E72:C0A3:8F54:5BDE:1875 ( talk)
A source that might elucidate the mystery of the "fire in waters" of PIE myth:
https://www.academia.edu/36067039/Variations_on_the_Indo-European_Fire_and_Water_Mytheme_in_Three_Alchemical_Accounts — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.218.212.120 ( talk) 01:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
There should be a table of different gods/goddesses/concepts comparing different proto-indo-european gods/goddesses/concepts with their respective descendants/counterparts/cognates in different indo-european mythologies just like the ones in the Evidence section in the Indo-European cosmogony article. Danishjaveed ( talk) 20:03, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
The second sentence of the first paragraph states...
Although these stories are not directly attested, they have been reconstructed by scholars of comparative mythology based on the similarities in the languages and belief systems of Indo-European peoples.
The first sentence of the fourth paragraph states...
Well-attested myths of the Proto-Indo-Europeans include a myth involving a storm god who slays a multi-headed serpent that dwells in water and a creation story involving two brothers, one of whom sacrifices the other to create the world.
The parts in those two sentences I wish to point out are...
"Although these stories are not directly attested,..."
-and-
"Well-attested myths of the Proto-Indo-Europeans include..."
If they are not "directly attested", they can hardly be "well-attested". Therefore, these two sentences contradict each other.
Thibeinn ( talk) 02:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
It seems Georges Dumézil has suggested another IE myth: some sort of contest or race to acquire the ambrosia, amrita or food of immortality.
Dumézil, Georges. "Les bylines de Michajlo Potyk et les légendes indo-européennes de l'ambroisie". In: Revue des études slaves, tome 5, fascicule 3-4, 1925. pp. 205-237. [DOI: https://doi.org/10.3406/slave.1925.7342]; [www.persee.fr/doc/slave_0080-2557_1925_num_5_3_7342]02:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC)02:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.218.212.120 ( talk)
I found some articles that analyse a tale of the theft of a weapon or instrument of a god of/associated with thunder (Dagda's harp in Celtic tradition, Thor's hammer, Zeus's lightning bolt by Typhoeus):
Shaw, John. (2019). The Dagda, Thor and ATU 1148B. Temenos - Nordic Journal of Comparative Religion. 55. 97-120. 10.33356/temenos.83427.
Frog, Mr. (2013). CIRCUM-BALTIC MYTHOLOGY? THE STRANGE CASE OF THE THEFT OF THE THUNDER-INSTRUMENT (ATU 1148B). Archaeologia BALTICA. 15. 10.15181/ab.v15i1.25.
Frog, Mr. (2014). Germanic traditions of the theft of the thunder-instrument (ATU 1148B) An approach to Prymskvida and Porrs adventure with Geirrodr in Circum-Baltic perspective. 307. 120-162. 20:45, 7 May 2020 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.218.212.120 ( talk)
Mayor, Adrienne. "Bibliography of Classical Folklore Scholarship: Myths, Legends, and Popular Beliefs of Ancient Greece and Rome." Folklore 111, no. 1 (2000): 129-30. Accessed June 18, 2020. www.jstor.org/stable/1260985. 179.218.212.120 ( talk) 15:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
It should me mentioned as a separate myth I think.-- 213.137.72.60 ( talk) 19:51, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
A very interesting article suggests another poetic formula that adds to the [HERO] - [SLAYS] - [SERPENT] formula described by Calvert Watkins's seminal book on IE poetics:
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/13178/SLS2009-01Slade.pdf.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:5CE7:8E72:C0A3:8F54:5BDE:1875 ( talk) 01:23, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
A user changed the era designations in the article to all be BCE/CE. I reverted the edit, as the article had previously had eight occurrences of "BC", and only one of "BCE". Personally, I prefer "BCE/CE" for articles such as this, which are outside the scope of Christian and European history, but the guidance at MOS:ERA is quite clear. Does anyone want to formally propose a change for this article? - Donald Albury 21:15, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
I formally urge that BCE/CE be used as the dating system for this article for the following reasons: 1. BCE/CE avoids Christian-centred writing, which is important for an article about non-Christian religions; 2. BCE/CE avoids Eurocentric-centred writing, which is important for an article about this Eurasian religions topic; 174.95.75.38 ( talk) 21:21, 22 September 2021 (UTC)174.95.75.38
This article should include historical/linguistic/scientific criticism of the theories set out in the article, including references to the fact that many serious scholars think the entire endeavour of attempting to illuminate pre-literate myths through comparisons is either/or ahistorical and unscientific. 92.10.208.18 ( talk) 17:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree. The article is heavily West 2007 based (look at the references). It reads in places, to me, like an overly enthusiastic attempt to see patterns where there are none.
The section involving placing coins on the eyes of the deceased for the boatman as a PIE mytheme read as if written by a complete amateur. Coins were invented in the 6th century BC. 3000 years after PIE ended. Mistakes like that (and there are many) make the reader question the article’s legitimacy in its entirety.
The main problem is that it considers similarities across cultures (Sweden, Spain, etc) without considering their age. Any similarity between cultures is deemed to be PIE, even if the similarity in question originated in 372 AD and obviously cross pollinated at a much later date than when PIE ended. Gold333 ( talk) 03:56, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
This diagram appears in the article:
Dyēws Daylight-Sky |
Dhéǵhōm Earth | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The Divine Twins | The Sun Maiden |
Hausōs Dawn | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
An alternative genealogy has been proposed by P. Jackson (2002): [1] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
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This would appear to indicate that the sky father is married to the earth mother, but that his children do not issue from her (or the descender would come from the line joining them), and that the sun maiden is married to the horse twins (horizontal line connecting them), and the sun maiden does not descend from the sky father. Is this what was intended? IAmNitpicking ( talk) 21:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
References
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
A great deal of the misattributed information I have been deleting seems to have actually originated from the website http://piereligion.org/, which is definitely not a reliable source by any means. For one thing, the website is written from the perspective of a modern worshipper and is extremely biased to say the least. As just an example of this bias, it dismisses the widely-accepted Trifunctional hypothesis out of hand as nothing more than "Catholic Fascism." Also, the website is not very careful with its information. It claims that "at least 40" Proto-Indo-European deities can be reconstructed. Mallory and Adams 2006, however, only mentions about half that many and even then dismisses over half of the deities it does mention as being too speculative. Similarly, the website, for some reason, associates modern folklore traditions dating back only a few hundred years with Proto-Indo-European religion. For instance, it associates the English " John Barleycorn" folk song, the earliest version of which comes from no earlier than the fourteenth century, with an alleged PIE harvest god. Future editors should be warned against taking the information on the website at face value. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 02:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I have found yet another very good reason to distrust piereligion.org's reliability. On one page ( http://piereligion.org/eastereggs.html), the site seems to argue that Easter eggs are a continuation of Proto-Indo-European tradition, based primarily on the modern widespread popularity of the custom, in spite of the fact that it is widely known that the custom of dying Easter eggs is not especially ancient and originated as a custom among early Greek Orthodox Christians living in Mesopotamia during the first millennium A.D. As a matter of fact, almost the entire section on "Food, Festivals, and Farming" ( http://piereligion.org/festivals.html) seems to be almost exclusively a polemic arguing that modern holiday traditions are actually derived from Proto-Indo-European paganism, a ludicrous notion, considering that nearly all modern holiday traditions only go back a few centuries at the most. It has an entire page dedicated to Halloween songs and stories ( http://piereligion.org/hallsongs.html), which certainly have nothing to do with the actual reconstructed religion of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 23:32, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Katolophyromai, did you actually read the page on the "Halloween songs and stories"? While it mentions a few ideas about how various traditions are connected, most of it is devoted to the author's favorite spooky or haunting music and stories to hear in the Halloween season. He/she is giving recommendations to readers. He/she is not suggesting that (among others) Orpheus in the Underworld (1858) by Jacques Offenbach, St. James Infirmary Blues (1928) by Louis Armstrong, and Minnie the Moocher (1931) by Cab Calloway are representations of Proto-Indo-European religion. Dimadick ( talk) 17:34, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree that this site shouldn't be used anywhere on Wikipedia. There are plenty of solid sources out there we could be employing instead of this. :bloodofox: ( talk) 19:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
This article contains weird things like Dyḗus Pḥɑtḗr which disagree with the notation found in other PIE-related articles, such as PIE phonology. For clarity, the same notation should be used in all articles. Is it ok to update these? CodeCat ( talk) 17:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
As stated above, chariots were a significant part of some expansions of Indo-European branches, and came to have symbolic importance in some societies speaking languages belonging to various Indo-European branches, but chariots and spoked wheels were invented too late to exist during the "period of Indo-European unity" or the earliest expansions (when the only wheeled or horse-drawn vehicles that existed were simple basic wooden carts or wagons with wheels made of solid planks fastened side-by-side). Statements in the article which would seem to contradict this should be modified or removed... AnonMoos ( talk) 08:46, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Their actions reverberated across the Eurasian continent. The northern forest frontier began to dissolve east of the Urals as it had earlier west of the Urals; metallurgy and some aspects of Sintashta settlement designs spread north through the Siberian forests. Chariotry spread west through the Ukrainian steppe MVK culture into southeastern Europe's Monteoru (phase Ic1-Ib), Vatin, and Otomani cultures, perhaps with the satǝm dialects that later popped up in Armenian, Albanian, and Phrygian, all of which are thought to have evolved in southeastern Europe. (Pre-Greek must have departed before this, as it did not share the satǝm innovations.)
"Proto-Indo-European religion is the belief system adhered to by the Proto-Indo-Europeans." Religion, belief system? PiCo ( talk) 08:09, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: MOVE Donald Albury 14:01, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
I have two main reasons for requesting this move:
I would have suggested this move over a year ago, but I did not think it would have any chance of going through because people often associate the word "mythology" with the colloquial sense of the word "myth," meaning "a story that is not true," but, as it is used by scholars, the word "myth" does not imply truth or falsehood, but rather merely refers to a traditional story with cultural or religious significance. See, for instance, our own article myth, which defines the subject as follows: "Myth is a folklore genre consisting of narratives that play a fundamental role in society, such as foundational tales. Myths often consist of sacred narratives about gods." Using the word "religion" in this sense to refer to mythology is just plain euphemistic. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 16:40, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Requested 3O on this ...
User:Katolophyromai starts an edit war. Added new section Proto-Indo-European_religion#Primordial principle on the primordial principle above the deities in proto-Indo-European religion. User:Katolophyromai declares sources as invalid.
My suggestions for accomodating this difference is :
1 ) Verify if the sources are sufficient to prove that the Three Fates in Indo-European mythology were above the gods in the hierarchy. My personal opinion is yes, the sources are sufficient.
2) do the Three Fates represent a Primordial Principle. Yes, this can still be seen in the Eastern triads Brahman - Vishnu - Shiva,...
i have to point out that i think that
User:Katolophyromai is corrupted by his christian faith. An impersonal Primordial principle above the Skyfathers very likely violates his personal worldview, however his personal worldview does not count here ... I think it is strange behavior when checks at 6 a.m. ( before work ? ) if someone wrote something 'evil' in wikipedia — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
141.20.6.67 (
talk) 17:33, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Could you explain why the sources are not reliable because this is one of the key points... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.138.216 ( talk) 18:38, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
at :bloodofox: The norns are higher than Odin, the norns carve runes in Yggdrasil ( the runes represent fate ) and Odin feels envy because of this. This is why he hangs himself on Yggdrasil what gives him insight in the secrets of the runes. However he still can only see the runes ( precognition , ... ) he can not carve them in Yggdrasil, only the norns are capable of carving the runes and so have a strong influence also on Odin's fate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.138.216 ( talk • contribs)
In any European and Eastern mythology that descends from the native proto-Indo-European mythology the theistic pantheon and lower spheres are governed by a triad of fate goddesses, or a similar triad of divine beings." This is flatly contradicted by West (the purported source for this statement), who says on page 379, "I do not know of any Indo-Iranian evidence for this idea, but it is found all over Europe, as well as in Bronze Age Anatolia." Clearly, this means they are not found in every "European and Eastern mythology that descends from the native proto-Indo-European mythology." Furthermore, West calls these three goddesses "Fates"; he never once refers to them as anything resembling "primordial principle." Finally, he does not discuss anything about them being superior to the highest gods; he does not support the idea, nor does he dismiss it, because he simply never mentions it.
The highest-ranking triad represents the concept of a universal principle of natural order that has been compared to similar concepts in other cultures like the Vedic Rta, the Avestan Asha ( Arta)," is entirely uncited and uses weasel words.
West's statement "I do not know of any Indo-Iranian evidence for this idea, but it is found all over Europe, as well as in Bronze Age Anatolia." possibly refers to fate goddesses. However there is also the Indo-European triad, in case of the Indo-Iranian religions it is Ṛta - Mitra- Varuna and Zurvan - Ahura Mazda - Angra Mainyu. Note that the concept of Zurvan is equivalent to Brahman and other concepts of a universal balance / nonduality like i.e. Maat and also linked to time like the Norse Norns.
For the female variant of the triad Brahman - Vishnu - Shiva see Tridevi#As_the_feminine_Trimurti however it is not important if the deities are male or female, crucial is the principle they represents ( Mahakali is also linked to time ). The superordinate principle is also the link between the Fates and the Eastern triads. Nowhere in the section i support that the triads are equivalent to the Fates, they only represent the same principle and i do not care if West says that the triads represent a principle or not, they simply do like any other mythological content.
Mythologies are models for description of the world like modern physics and natural sciences and so their content represents principles of nature or social interaction.
On Quintus Smyrnaeus :
In Wikipedia:Identifying_and_using_primary_sources#Uses_in_fields_other_than_history is said nothing about not to use primary sources. And as said in mythology primary sources are the best sources ( like in case of mythology ) :
Primary sources can be reliable, and they can be used. Sometimes, a primary source is even the best possible source, such as when you are supporting a direct quotation. In such cases, the original document is the best source because the original document will be free of any errors or misquotations introduced by subsequent sources.
On the accuracy of the statement in Quintus Smyrnaeus also cf Moirai#cite_note-Prometh.515-6 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.20.6.99 ( talk) 10:43, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
In a strict sense you are correct with the usage of sources that make statements about Greek and Roman mythology in context of Indo-European mythology. However it is very likey that the concepts, like a Supreme Triad was inherited from the preceeding Indo-European mythology because it is equal in all ancient European, Iranian and Indian cultures.
So you do not declare the sources as completely invalid, except Germanicmythology.com.
However i have to say that the content i cited from this is trivial knowledge when you are familiar with Germanic mythology and you find this in various other internet sources because, as said, it is trivial, see above in this talk.
The link between triskelion and Gankyil is in the article Triskelion i simply copied it from there.
For now i see point 1 ) as solved, the sources are not generally invalid ( except Germanicmythology.com ), the issue is that they can not be used here because they do not refer explicitely to Indo-European mythology. Is that correct ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.20.6.99 ( talk) 10:25, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
The critical sentence is marked bold :
(in chapter Nature deities)
In 1855, Adalbert Kuhn suggested that the Proto-Indo-Europeans may have believed in a set of helper deities, whom he reconstructed based on the Germanic elves and the Hindu ribhus.[79][80] Though this proposal is often mentioned in academic writings, very few scholars actually accept it.[81] There may also have been a female cognate akin to the Greco-Roman nymphs, Slavic vilas, the Huldra of Germanic folklore, and the Hindu Apsaras.[82]
source [81] is : Alaric Hall: Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity, it is accessible here : https://www.academia.edu/822022/Elves_in_Anglo-Saxon_England_Matters_of_Belief_Health_Gender_and_Identity
Any appearence of the term 'Indo-European' in Alaric Hall: Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity is not related to the statement in the article, how can it source the statement that the Proto-Indo-Europeans did not believe in helper deities then ?
You can search the entire document with the shortcuts Ctrl+F and Ctrl+G. A statement that is possibly meant is that the earliest source for medieval [!] beliefs about elves is the Wið_færstice of which Alaric Hall states on page 109-110 of Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity' :
" How old Wið færstice is is hard to judge. Commentators once considered it incoherent and fragmentary, a perspective abetted by their insistence on dissecting it into ‘pagan’ and ‘Christian’ parts. However, critics of the 1970s and 1980s developed the early revisionism of Skemp to argue for its coherence of composition, a position which I accept, and will to some extent consolidate. Although its origins could be disparate, Wið færstice is a coherent text. " source : https://www.academia.edu/822022/Elves_in_Anglo-Saxon_England_Matters_of_Belief_Health_Gender_and_Identity , p. 109
"
The age of "Wið færstice" has been hard to judge. Considering all of the available evidence, Medieval literature specialist Alaric Hall deemed it probable that the charm was a "cultural artefact" from the late tenth century.
"
source :
Wið_færstice#Date
Whoever introduced the source Alaric Hall: Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity: Could you specify a page ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.234.254.155 ( talk) 09:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
May I submit for insertion a myth of "The White Horse"? There seems to be a consistency to the imagery: Castor and Pollux are called "riders of white horses", and so are their twin half-brothers Amphion and Zethus; the Dioskouroi take part in the Rape of the Leukippides (daughters of Leukippus, i.e., the White-Horse); Pausanias describes an Iranian worship of white-horses, etc.18:01, 21 March 2020 (UTC) -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:5CE7:8E72:3D74:F34B:8E7C:DBB7 ( talk)
In the Kresnik (deity) article, there is reference that this Slovene (Slavic?) deity may have thunderer characteristics, specially in a legend where he fights a cthonic snake-like foe. See: Šmitek, Zmago (1998): Kresnik: An Attempt at Mythological Reconstruction. In: Studia Mythologica Slavica, Vol 1, 1998, 93-118. 20:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC) 2804:14D:5CE7:8E72:C0A3:8F54:5BDE:1875 ( talk)
A source that might elucidate the mystery of the "fire in waters" of PIE myth:
https://www.academia.edu/36067039/Variations_on_the_Indo-European_Fire_and_Water_Mytheme_in_Three_Alchemical_Accounts — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.218.212.120 ( talk) 01:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
There should be a table of different gods/goddesses/concepts comparing different proto-indo-european gods/goddesses/concepts with their respective descendants/counterparts/cognates in different indo-european mythologies just like the ones in the Evidence section in the Indo-European cosmogony article. Danishjaveed ( talk) 20:03, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
The second sentence of the first paragraph states...
Although these stories are not directly attested, they have been reconstructed by scholars of comparative mythology based on the similarities in the languages and belief systems of Indo-European peoples.
The first sentence of the fourth paragraph states...
Well-attested myths of the Proto-Indo-Europeans include a myth involving a storm god who slays a multi-headed serpent that dwells in water and a creation story involving two brothers, one of whom sacrifices the other to create the world.
The parts in those two sentences I wish to point out are...
"Although these stories are not directly attested,..."
-and-
"Well-attested myths of the Proto-Indo-Europeans include..."
If they are not "directly attested", they can hardly be "well-attested". Therefore, these two sentences contradict each other.
Thibeinn ( talk) 02:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
It seems Georges Dumézil has suggested another IE myth: some sort of contest or race to acquire the ambrosia, amrita or food of immortality.
Dumézil, Georges. "Les bylines de Michajlo Potyk et les légendes indo-européennes de l'ambroisie". In: Revue des études slaves, tome 5, fascicule 3-4, 1925. pp. 205-237. [DOI: https://doi.org/10.3406/slave.1925.7342]; [www.persee.fr/doc/slave_0080-2557_1925_num_5_3_7342]02:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC)02:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.218.212.120 ( talk)
I found some articles that analyse a tale of the theft of a weapon or instrument of a god of/associated with thunder (Dagda's harp in Celtic tradition, Thor's hammer, Zeus's lightning bolt by Typhoeus):
Shaw, John. (2019). The Dagda, Thor and ATU 1148B. Temenos - Nordic Journal of Comparative Religion. 55. 97-120. 10.33356/temenos.83427.
Frog, Mr. (2013). CIRCUM-BALTIC MYTHOLOGY? THE STRANGE CASE OF THE THEFT OF THE THUNDER-INSTRUMENT (ATU 1148B). Archaeologia BALTICA. 15. 10.15181/ab.v15i1.25.
Frog, Mr. (2014). Germanic traditions of the theft of the thunder-instrument (ATU 1148B) An approach to Prymskvida and Porrs adventure with Geirrodr in Circum-Baltic perspective. 307. 120-162. 20:45, 7 May 2020 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.218.212.120 ( talk)
Mayor, Adrienne. "Bibliography of Classical Folklore Scholarship: Myths, Legends, and Popular Beliefs of Ancient Greece and Rome." Folklore 111, no. 1 (2000): 129-30. Accessed June 18, 2020. www.jstor.org/stable/1260985. 179.218.212.120 ( talk) 15:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
It should me mentioned as a separate myth I think.-- 213.137.72.60 ( talk) 19:51, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
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A very interesting article suggests another poetic formula that adds to the [HERO] - [SLAYS] - [SERPENT] formula described by Calvert Watkins's seminal book on IE poetics:
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/13178/SLS2009-01Slade.pdf.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:5CE7:8E72:C0A3:8F54:5BDE:1875 ( talk) 01:23, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
A user changed the era designations in the article to all be BCE/CE. I reverted the edit, as the article had previously had eight occurrences of "BC", and only one of "BCE". Personally, I prefer "BCE/CE" for articles such as this, which are outside the scope of Christian and European history, but the guidance at MOS:ERA is quite clear. Does anyone want to formally propose a change for this article? - Donald Albury 21:15, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
I formally urge that BCE/CE be used as the dating system for this article for the following reasons: 1. BCE/CE avoids Christian-centred writing, which is important for an article about non-Christian religions; 2. BCE/CE avoids Eurocentric-centred writing, which is important for an article about this Eurasian religions topic; 174.95.75.38 ( talk) 21:21, 22 September 2021 (UTC)174.95.75.38
This article should include historical/linguistic/scientific criticism of the theories set out in the article, including references to the fact that many serious scholars think the entire endeavour of attempting to illuminate pre-literate myths through comparisons is either/or ahistorical and unscientific. 92.10.208.18 ( talk) 17:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree. The article is heavily West 2007 based (look at the references). It reads in places, to me, like an overly enthusiastic attempt to see patterns where there are none.
The section involving placing coins on the eyes of the deceased for the boatman as a PIE mytheme read as if written by a complete amateur. Coins were invented in the 6th century BC. 3000 years after PIE ended. Mistakes like that (and there are many) make the reader question the article’s legitimacy in its entirety.
The main problem is that it considers similarities across cultures (Sweden, Spain, etc) without considering their age. Any similarity between cultures is deemed to be PIE, even if the similarity in question originated in 372 AD and obviously cross pollinated at a much later date than when PIE ended. Gold333 ( talk) 03:56, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
This diagram appears in the article:
Dyēws Daylight-Sky |
Dhéǵhōm Earth | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The Divine Twins | The Sun Maiden |
Hausōs Dawn | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
An alternative genealogy has been proposed by P. Jackson (2002): [1] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This would appear to indicate that the sky father is married to the earth mother, but that his children do not issue from her (or the descender would come from the line joining them), and that the sun maiden is married to the horse twins (horizontal line connecting them), and the sun maiden does not descend from the sky father. Is this what was intended? IAmNitpicking ( talk) 21:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
References