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There are many afghan women who are trafficked into Iran, pakistan and even Dubai and forced to work as hookers. I'm afghan myself, but we shouldn't tryt to hide this, but rather put it into the open and discuss it in order to solve these kind of issues which are huge in afghanistan due to poverty.
For example, he is an article about afghan women being trafficked into uae, Iran and Pakistan and even India. http://www.rawa.org/trafficking.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.31.195 ( talk) 23:53, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
I've added a second reference to the "bacha bereesh" related text - but they seem to actually be the same article:
Anyone know which is the original? Nuwewsco ( talk) 12:40, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm removing the following information for a variety of reasons.
The 2 sources are not reliable in this case because they don't specify "prostitution in Afghanistan". Nikah mut‘ah is a fixed-term "marriage" practiced by the minority Shia Afghans and who says this is prostitution? There is solid evidence showing Chinese prostitutes working in Afghanistan but the source states "Afghanistan is also a destination for women and girls from Iran, Tajikistan, and possibly China trafficked for commercial sexual exploitation." That indicates that the source is not sure so it lacks credibility. Human trafficking and child labor doesn't always involve prostitution services, especially not in the Muslim countries and more specifically not in Afghanistan where the people are ultra-conservative.
Please don't re-add this information until you find more reliable sources which explain specifically about prostitution in Afghanistan, i.e. like the latest news reports we have added as sources for the other claims in the article. Also, don't remove my W:NPOV starting line in the introduction just because you may not agree with it. That is a fact, and if you disagree or want it sourced just add a citation needed tag. This is an encyclopedia and it must explain a little about the country and the people so that readers understand more.-- Jrkso ( talk) 08:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted back a change that's been repeatedly inserted into the text. Prostitution in Afghanistan does not carry the death penalty. Yes, there are relativly harsh punishments for it, but:
The cited sources only refer to extra-judicial killings - i.e. plain murder. The previous text misrepresents the facts. Nuwewsco ( talk) 21:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
(Adding comment here to explain the apparent ref deletion I've just done - and because of the recent edit history on the article, I'm sure someone's gonna question it!)
I've removed a citation and surrounding text relating to a PAN article (
[5]) as:
Nuwewsco ( talk) 18:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
We should only be really using examples (of deaths) that relate to prostitution. I removed two this morning that were related to illegal sex & adultery (not the same thing!). I note there are some more and that the examples now appear to be duplicated... --Errant Tmorton166( Talk) 07:31, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Recents edits concern me; there seems a distinct effort to try and bring in the synthesis POV that a) the Taleban is extremely strict over sex crime (undisputed), b) that sex crime is unreported or lightly reported in anywhere but the north of the country (again, pretty clear) and c) that, as these are Taleban areas prostitution does not exist there.
Firstly this is not true (which is irrelevant in some ways, but worth saying).
More importantly we do not have a source that makes point c. As a result we must avoid making such claims in the article - even by association. The same goes for prostitution under past Taleban rule - we have a reliable source that says it existed, so far I have found no further information on that. Saying "the Taleban killed prostitutes so there was no prostitution under their rule" is incorrect (at least till we can find a source that says this!).
As I have said before - this article is built on a lot of news reports and rote data (i.e. state department reports). The amount of scholarly material is lacking somewhat. It's a difficult subject and we need to tread carefully. --Errant Tmorton166( Talk) 18:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
The U.S. State department does not mention the word "prostitution" anywhere in their 2001 country report on Afghanistan but they do explain alot about how strict the the Taliban were especially toward women. See quote below This edit by Tmorton166 seems to disagree about the Taliban being very strict. The new source (Melissa) used for the Taliban states in her book: " Under the Taliban in Afghanistan, the traffic in women for prostitution thrived." but the U.S. State department below doesn't mention anything about that. This is the contradiction that needs to be corrected. Where did Meslissa get her information from? Melissa's book is not about Afghanistan so obviously she isn't an expert on this country. This RAWA report is about prostitution during the Taliban, with prostitutes being interviewed, and that also is focusing on Kabul but doesn't give us any clue that "traffic in women for prostitution thrived" at that time. I think we need to state something like this instead "Prostitution was more restricted during the Taliban rule but existed in Kabul." We don't need to get into details about prostitution being available or not in the Taliban-controlled areas, let readers make their own conclusions on reading the article with the news reports we have presented. The sentence below "Women accused of adultery also are subjected to violence. Adultery is punishable by death through stoning." includes prostitutes because according to the Afghan penal code married prostitutes are considered adulterers which is already stated in the article. In the RAWA report all the prostitutes were married women.
“ | Women
As lawlessness and interfactional fighting continued in some areas, violence against women occurred frequently, including beatings, rapes, forced marriages, disappearances, kidnapings, and killings. Such incidents generally went unreported, and most information was anecdotal. It was difficult to document rapes, in particular, in view of the social stigma that surrounds the problem. Although the stability brought by the Taliban to most of the country acted in general to reduce violence against women, particularly rapes and kidnapings, Taliban members continued to threaten or beat women to enforce the Taliban's dress code for women. There were unconfirmed reports that the Taliban or foreign "volunteers" fighting alongside the Taliban abducted women during the military offensive on Taloqan. There were also unconfirmed reports that Taliban soldiers or foreign volunteers abducted women in the offensive in the Shomali plains in 1999 and that they raped and abducted women from Hazara neighborhoods in Mazar-i-Sharif in August 1998. The whereabouts of some of these women were unknown at year's end. The enforced seclusion of women within the home greatly limited the information available on domestic violence and marital rape. In a climate of secrecy and impunity, it is likely that domestic violence against women remained a serious problem. Women accused of adultery also are subjected to violence. Adultery is punishable by death through stoning. At least one accused adulteress was sentenced to 100 lashes during the year; a female accomplice was sentenced to 30 lashes. Overall, the situation of women and girls remained mostly unchanged, as the Taliban generally continued the application of its ultra-conservative interpretation of Islamic law. In 1992 a new government was installed and the previous trend towards increasing numbers of women working outside of the home was reversed. Since the advent of the Taliban in 1994, the trend towards excluding women from employment has intensified. The treatment of women under Taliban rule has been particularly harsh, although there was marginal improvement in some areas during the year. In the areas where it took control, the Taliban initially excluded women from all employment outside the home, apart from the traditional work of women in agriculture; women were forbidden to leave the home except in the company of a male relative. In urban areas, and particularly after the Taliban took Kabul in 1996, the Taliban forced almost all women to quit their jobs as professionals and clerical workers, including teachers, doctors, nurses, bank tellers, and aid workers. In a few cases, the Taliban relented and allowed women to work in health care occupations under restricted circumstances. The prohibition on women working outside of the home has been especially difficult for the large numbers of widows left by 20 years of civil war; there are an estimated 30,000 widows in Kabul alone. In August the Taliban issued an order closing down the World Food Program's 25 widows' bakeries but reversed the decision on the following day (see Section 4). Many women reportedly have been reduced to selling all of their possessions and to begging to feed their families. However, during 1999, restrictions on women's employment reportedly eased somewhat. The Taliban allowed women to work in the medical sector as doctors and nurses, treating only other women. Medicins Sans Frontieres and other international NGO's reported that they were able to recruit both male and female health care staff without administrative obstacles and that the main difficulty faced in recruitment of medical staff was the lack of qualified female personnel. In 1999 there were reports that the Taliban reopened schools for doctors and nurses and that women were allowed to attend women-only institutions. A limited number of women were allowed to work for international agencies and NGO's, but they were not allowed to work in the offices of their employers; they were required to go directly from their homes to the project sites on which they worked. A Taliban edict issued in 1999 allowed needy widows with no other means of support to seek employment; but many widows reportedly were unaware of the change, and there was little work available. Women reportedly were allowed to claim international assistance directly rather than through their close male relatives, as a 1997 edict stipulated. However, male relatives still were required to obtain the permission of the PVSV for female home-based employment. Girls formally were prohibited from attending school. Formal restrictions against the education of girls remain, apart from instruction provided in mosques, which is mainly religious in content. However, there are a growing number of girls educated by international NGO's in formal schools, community-based schools, and home schools. Most citizens lack any access to adequate medical facilities, and the provision of health care under Taliban rule remains poor. Life expectancy rates are estimated at 44 years for women and 43 years for men. In most regions, there is less than 1 physician per 10,000 persons. Health services reach only 29 percent of the population and only 17 percent of the rural population. Clean water reaches only about 12 percent of the population. Health care for both men and women was hampered by the Taliban's ban on images of humans, which caused the destruction of public education posters and made the provision and dissemination of health information in a society with high levels of illiteracy more difficult. Tuberculosis rates for women and maternal mortality rates are extremely high. The Taliban significantly reduced women's access to health care, although it has since loosened restrictions somewhat. In 1997 the Taliban announced a policy of segregating men and women in hospitals; this policy reportedly continued at year's end. In 1997 in an attempt to centralize medical care for women, the Taliban also directed most hospitals in Kabul to cease services to women and to discharge female staff. Services for women were to be provided by a single hospital still partially under construction, which resulted in a drastic reduction in access to, and the quality of, health care for women. Later, women were permitted to seek treatment from female medical personnel working in designated women's wards or clinics; since June 1998 they have been permitted to seek treatment from male doctors only if accompanied by a male relative. In practice women were excluded from treatment by male physicians in most hospitals. These rules, while not enforced universally, made obtaining treatment extremely difficult for most women, and especially for Kabul's widows, many of whom have lost all such male family members. Further, even when a woman was allowed to be treated by a male doctor, he was prohibited from examining her except if she were fully clothed in Taliban-approved garb and from touching her, thus limiting the possibility of any meaningful treatment. The participants in a 1998 survey of 160 Afghan women reported little or no access to health care in Kabul. Most of the participants also reported a decline in their mental health. However, there were credible reports that the restrictions on women's health care were not applied in practice and that there were some improvements in access to health care for women during the last 2 years. By the end of 1999, all Kabul hospitals apart from the military hospital reportedly treated women. Rabia Balkhi Women's Hospital in Kabul provided a full range of health services to women, but there was only one maternity hospital in the country. The Taliban decreed what women could wear in public. Women in public spaces were required to wear a burqa, a loose, head-to-toe garment that has a small cloth screen for vision. While in many, particularly rural, areas of the country, the burqa was the customary women's outer garment, the requirement for all women to wear the burqa represented a significant change in practice for many women, particularly in urban areas. According to a decree announced by the religious police in 1997, women found outside the home who were not covered properly would be punished severely along with their family elders. In Kabul and elsewhere women found in public who were not wearing the burqa, or whose burqas did not cover their ankles properly, reportedly have been beaten by Taliban militiamen. Some women cannot afford the cost of a burqa, and thus are forced to remain at home or risk beatings if they go out without one. During 1999 there were reports of differences in the enforcement of the requirement for women to wear the burqa. Enforcement reportedly was relatively lax in rural and non-Pashtun areas, and there were reports that some women in Herat and in rural areas cover their heads with large scarves that leave the face uncovered and have not faced reprisals. The Taliban's dress code for women apparently is not enforced strictly upon the nomad population of several hundred thousand or upon the few female foreigners, who nonetheless must cover their hair, arms, and legs. Women in their homes must not be visible from the street; the Taliban require that homes with female occupants have their windows painted over. Women were expected to leave their homes only while escorted by a male relative, further curtailing the appearance and movement of women in public even when wearing approved clothing. Women appearing in public without a male relative ran the risk of beatings by the Taliban. Some observers reported seeing fewer and fewer women on the streets in Taliban-controlled areas. Women are not allowed to drive, and taxi drivers reportedly are beaten if they take unescorted women as passengers. On October 19, taxi drivers were warned by the PVSV not to pick up unaccompanied female passengers or risk a ban on their driving privileges. Women only may ride on buses designated as women's buses; there are reportedly not enough such buses to meet the demand, and the wait for women's buses can be long. In December 1998, the Taliban ordered that bus drivers who take female passengers must encase the bus in curtains and put up a curtain so that the female passengers cannot see or be seen by the driver. Bus drivers also were told that they must employ boys under the age of 15 to collect fares from female passengers and that neither the drivers nor the fare collectors were to mingle with the passengers. AI has reported that the Taliban have ordered the closure of women's public baths. Women are also forbidden to enter mosques or other places of worship unless the mosque has separate sections for men and women. Most women pray at home alone or with other family members. Women also reportedly have been prohibited from appearing on the streets for certain periods during the month of Ramadan. The Taliban's restrictions regarding the social behavior of men and women were communicated by edicts and enforced mainly by the PVSV. The U.N. and numerous other interlocutors noted that the edicts are enforced with varying degrees of rigor throughout the country. The restrictions were enforced most strictly in urban areas, where women had enjoyed wider access to educational and employment opportunities before the Taliban gained control. After her 1999 visit, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women noted some improvements in the status of women, including the existence of home schools as well as limited primary educational institutions for girls run by the Religious Ministry in Kabul; increased access of women to health care; and the permission for widows to work. The Special Rapporteur also noted continuing violations of the physical security of women and the practice of lashings and public beatings, violations of the rights to education, health, employment, freedom of movement, and freedom of association, and of family rights, including the existence of polygyny and forced marriage. She also noted that minority women sometimes were subject to forced displacement and that there were some cases of trafficking in women and children (see Section 6.f.). |
” |
I will remove this quote later.-- Jrkso ( talk) 22:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I actually support Jrsko's alternative, on reflection. The wording in the sources is vague at best - and represent the kind of wording we need to avoid as statements of fact. Either they should be attributed or the alternate wording used. -- Errant [tmorton166] ( chat!) 20:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Prostitution in Afghanistan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "dos":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 05:57, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
User:John B123 unnecessarily reverted my good faith edits. I'm an expert on Afghanistan but JohnB123 is someone who is sitting somewhere in England with no knowledge about Afghanistan and is putting any nonsense he finds on the internet. He is claiming in the article (to the world) that there were 12,000 prostitutes in Afghanistan in 2016 and cites a nonworking/dead link (which obviously cannot be used here as a reliable source) and another link but that one doesn't say anything about "12,000 prostitutes" in Afghanistan. In other words, John B123 wants us to believe what he believes regardless if it's true or false. He also claims that Mazar-i-Sharif is a prostitution capital. A bold claim like that must be well-sourced, and it must be well-known like how San Francisco in the United States is the capital of LGBT people. He also removed my statement ("which has members on both sides of the Durand Line"). The Shinwari tribe has relatives and even family members in both Afghanistan and Pakistan (on both sides of that border), this is well-known and the sources also say so. When we explain something about female prostitutes in England we don't repeatedly say British prostitutes or English prostitutes. The Taliban punish all prostitutes regardless of nationality, race or ethnicity. In other words, if British or Pakistani prostitutes are caught in Afghanistan they will also punish them.-- 39.41.71.211 ( talk) 20:38, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
The article called Pakistan Frontier is not a reliable a source because it doesn't provide sources itself for its claims that afghan women are trafficked into India. Not only is it blaming the former Ghani Government and India (yeah totally not biased) but its first sentence literally starts of by ASSUMING that Afghan women are trafficked into India with no secondary sources to prove as a result. Its basically conjure and i am going to remove it . Akmal94 ( talk) 04:51, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
What part of "no secondary sources" do you not understand? The article goes on to egnite its blame on India due the on-going Pak-India conflict and does not give a source to support its claims. There is no need for a census when the source is so obviously biased. It going to be removed. Akmal94 ( talk) 04:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello @ Buckshot06 I hope you’re doing swell! I’m using the talk page because I wanted to discuss your revision. I understand that it’s an “estimate”, but I’m not really sure if that addresses my main concerns with the line. The article states that there are other sources which estimate 7000 girls being sold. But the issue is the article doesn’t provide the citations or the sources anywhere. Furthermore, the biggest issue I see is that there are no other sources that collaborate this statement. Not a single one.
I hope we can come to some sort of agreement or compromise. It would be great to see to your point of view and concerns. Someguywhosbored ( talk) 06:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.This is fully met. -- John B123 ( talk) 23:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
The burden of proof is on those who add or defend the contentious material to provide sources that satisfy the concerns of the challenging editor- this refers to unsourced content, which is not the case here. -- John B123 ( talk) 23:23, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
It's good that you have taken this issue to RSN; you are effectively saying that we cannot rely on that one single source (because you want a citation, thus a non Pakistan Frontier source). What is the link to the discussion so that we can contribute at RSN? Buckshot06 (talk) 04:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
User:John B123 User:Buckshot06 Apologies for pinging you two for another conversation after we just ended the previous topic, but I found another line/source that much like the “Pakistan frontier”, is quite problematic. I felt that if I edited the page without using the talk page, my changes would probably be reverted again, so I’m here to go over something too long for the summary page. Salon appears to be cited for this line.
“Prior to foreign troops withdrawing from the country, there have been reports of brothels and prostitution around US bases”
And this is the line from the salon article.
“Even during the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, there have been multiple reports of brothels and sex trafficking involving U.S. troops and contractors.”
Now I can get to the crux of the issue. So at first glance salon seems to be a bit of a better source than Pakistani frontier(which it is although that’s not saying much), but Per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, there’s no consensus on its reliability, it’s considered biased and opinionated, and more importantly, additional considerations apply. I’ll show what those considerations are.
“There is no consensus on the reliability of Salon. Editors consider Salon biased or opinionated, and its statements should be attributed”
The last part is important because that means every and any statement from a salon article should have a source attributed to that statement in the newsletter(like a citation to another author). But this Salon article simply states that there have been reports of prostitution near U.S bases, without any sources/citations to back that claim up(much like the Pakistani frontier article) So if there’s no attribution, then this source shouldn’t be used. Because per the Perennial sources page, for there to be a salon article cited in wikipedia, it requires an attribution, which this source doesn’t have. That means this article shouldn’t be used. And this is just considerations for Salon in particular. Other articles may have different citation guidelines if there is an issue with the source much like there is for Salon.
Another issue is that this article isn't collaborated by any other reliable source. Which means that even if it was usable on wiki(which it isn’t/shouldn’t), it would need at least one other source backing it up, and in this case there isn’t.
I don’t think there’s a need to take this to RSN. Look at what’s written above the search bar in the perennial page.
“Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions.”
there’s already been multiple discussions about the newsletter and the article is listed in the perennial page. But if we can’t come to an agreement then as a last resort we could use an RSN, or ping the uninvolved users that had just voiced their opinions on the Pakistani frontier source. Someguywhosbored ( talk) 07:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
There have been reports of prostitution and sex trafficking involving U.S. troops and contractors prior to their withdrawal from the countryand additional citations added.
Commercial sex zones have developed around U.S. bases worldwide. Many look much the same, filled with liquor stores, fast-food outlets, tattoo parlors, bars and clubs, and prostitution in one form or another. The evidence is just outside the gates in places such as Baumholder and Kaiserslautern in Germany, and Kadena and Kin Town on Okinawa. Even during the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, there have been multiple reports of brothels and sex trafficking involving U.S. troops and contractors.
Someguywhosbored Thank you for your hard work on this, and batting [cricket analogy] uphill against our initial closedmindedness. The previous guy who attacked the "Pakistan Frontier" source seemed mostly worried about allegations about the honour of Afghan women. But you did the right thing, worked through the process, and resolved that issue. Now we have also imported some good new stuff about this horrible misbehaviour by Americans who ought to know better. Now, I do this military beat and I am always willing to listen (even if I reflexively sent you to RSN). Please feel free to call upon me for assistance on any related military, warfare, type issues. Kind regards, Buckshot06 (talk) 04:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
References
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talk page for discussing improvements to the
Prostitution in Afghanistan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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There are many afghan women who are trafficked into Iran, pakistan and even Dubai and forced to work as hookers. I'm afghan myself, but we shouldn't tryt to hide this, but rather put it into the open and discuss it in order to solve these kind of issues which are huge in afghanistan due to poverty.
For example, he is an article about afghan women being trafficked into uae, Iran and Pakistan and even India. http://www.rawa.org/trafficking.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.31.195 ( talk) 23:53, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
I've added a second reference to the "bacha bereesh" related text - but they seem to actually be the same article:
Anyone know which is the original? Nuwewsco ( talk) 12:40, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm removing the following information for a variety of reasons.
The 2 sources are not reliable in this case because they don't specify "prostitution in Afghanistan". Nikah mut‘ah is a fixed-term "marriage" practiced by the minority Shia Afghans and who says this is prostitution? There is solid evidence showing Chinese prostitutes working in Afghanistan but the source states "Afghanistan is also a destination for women and girls from Iran, Tajikistan, and possibly China trafficked for commercial sexual exploitation." That indicates that the source is not sure so it lacks credibility. Human trafficking and child labor doesn't always involve prostitution services, especially not in the Muslim countries and more specifically not in Afghanistan where the people are ultra-conservative.
Please don't re-add this information until you find more reliable sources which explain specifically about prostitution in Afghanistan, i.e. like the latest news reports we have added as sources for the other claims in the article. Also, don't remove my W:NPOV starting line in the introduction just because you may not agree with it. That is a fact, and if you disagree or want it sourced just add a citation needed tag. This is an encyclopedia and it must explain a little about the country and the people so that readers understand more.-- Jrkso ( talk) 08:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted back a change that's been repeatedly inserted into the text. Prostitution in Afghanistan does not carry the death penalty. Yes, there are relativly harsh punishments for it, but:
The cited sources only refer to extra-judicial killings - i.e. plain murder. The previous text misrepresents the facts. Nuwewsco ( talk) 21:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
(Adding comment here to explain the apparent ref deletion I've just done - and because of the recent edit history on the article, I'm sure someone's gonna question it!)
I've removed a citation and surrounding text relating to a PAN article (
[5]) as:
Nuwewsco ( talk) 18:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
We should only be really using examples (of deaths) that relate to prostitution. I removed two this morning that were related to illegal sex & adultery (not the same thing!). I note there are some more and that the examples now appear to be duplicated... --Errant Tmorton166( Talk) 07:31, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Recents edits concern me; there seems a distinct effort to try and bring in the synthesis POV that a) the Taleban is extremely strict over sex crime (undisputed), b) that sex crime is unreported or lightly reported in anywhere but the north of the country (again, pretty clear) and c) that, as these are Taleban areas prostitution does not exist there.
Firstly this is not true (which is irrelevant in some ways, but worth saying).
More importantly we do not have a source that makes point c. As a result we must avoid making such claims in the article - even by association. The same goes for prostitution under past Taleban rule - we have a reliable source that says it existed, so far I have found no further information on that. Saying "the Taleban killed prostitutes so there was no prostitution under their rule" is incorrect (at least till we can find a source that says this!).
As I have said before - this article is built on a lot of news reports and rote data (i.e. state department reports). The amount of scholarly material is lacking somewhat. It's a difficult subject and we need to tread carefully. --Errant Tmorton166( Talk) 18:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
The U.S. State department does not mention the word "prostitution" anywhere in their 2001 country report on Afghanistan but they do explain alot about how strict the the Taliban were especially toward women. See quote below This edit by Tmorton166 seems to disagree about the Taliban being very strict. The new source (Melissa) used for the Taliban states in her book: " Under the Taliban in Afghanistan, the traffic in women for prostitution thrived." but the U.S. State department below doesn't mention anything about that. This is the contradiction that needs to be corrected. Where did Meslissa get her information from? Melissa's book is not about Afghanistan so obviously she isn't an expert on this country. This RAWA report is about prostitution during the Taliban, with prostitutes being interviewed, and that also is focusing on Kabul but doesn't give us any clue that "traffic in women for prostitution thrived" at that time. I think we need to state something like this instead "Prostitution was more restricted during the Taliban rule but existed in Kabul." We don't need to get into details about prostitution being available or not in the Taliban-controlled areas, let readers make their own conclusions on reading the article with the news reports we have presented. The sentence below "Women accused of adultery also are subjected to violence. Adultery is punishable by death through stoning." includes prostitutes because according to the Afghan penal code married prostitutes are considered adulterers which is already stated in the article. In the RAWA report all the prostitutes were married women.
“ | Women
As lawlessness and interfactional fighting continued in some areas, violence against women occurred frequently, including beatings, rapes, forced marriages, disappearances, kidnapings, and killings. Such incidents generally went unreported, and most information was anecdotal. It was difficult to document rapes, in particular, in view of the social stigma that surrounds the problem. Although the stability brought by the Taliban to most of the country acted in general to reduce violence against women, particularly rapes and kidnapings, Taliban members continued to threaten or beat women to enforce the Taliban's dress code for women. There were unconfirmed reports that the Taliban or foreign "volunteers" fighting alongside the Taliban abducted women during the military offensive on Taloqan. There were also unconfirmed reports that Taliban soldiers or foreign volunteers abducted women in the offensive in the Shomali plains in 1999 and that they raped and abducted women from Hazara neighborhoods in Mazar-i-Sharif in August 1998. The whereabouts of some of these women were unknown at year's end. The enforced seclusion of women within the home greatly limited the information available on domestic violence and marital rape. In a climate of secrecy and impunity, it is likely that domestic violence against women remained a serious problem. Women accused of adultery also are subjected to violence. Adultery is punishable by death through stoning. At least one accused adulteress was sentenced to 100 lashes during the year; a female accomplice was sentenced to 30 lashes. Overall, the situation of women and girls remained mostly unchanged, as the Taliban generally continued the application of its ultra-conservative interpretation of Islamic law. In 1992 a new government was installed and the previous trend towards increasing numbers of women working outside of the home was reversed. Since the advent of the Taliban in 1994, the trend towards excluding women from employment has intensified. The treatment of women under Taliban rule has been particularly harsh, although there was marginal improvement in some areas during the year. In the areas where it took control, the Taliban initially excluded women from all employment outside the home, apart from the traditional work of women in agriculture; women were forbidden to leave the home except in the company of a male relative. In urban areas, and particularly after the Taliban took Kabul in 1996, the Taliban forced almost all women to quit their jobs as professionals and clerical workers, including teachers, doctors, nurses, bank tellers, and aid workers. In a few cases, the Taliban relented and allowed women to work in health care occupations under restricted circumstances. The prohibition on women working outside of the home has been especially difficult for the large numbers of widows left by 20 years of civil war; there are an estimated 30,000 widows in Kabul alone. In August the Taliban issued an order closing down the World Food Program's 25 widows' bakeries but reversed the decision on the following day (see Section 4). Many women reportedly have been reduced to selling all of their possessions and to begging to feed their families. However, during 1999, restrictions on women's employment reportedly eased somewhat. The Taliban allowed women to work in the medical sector as doctors and nurses, treating only other women. Medicins Sans Frontieres and other international NGO's reported that they were able to recruit both male and female health care staff without administrative obstacles and that the main difficulty faced in recruitment of medical staff was the lack of qualified female personnel. In 1999 there were reports that the Taliban reopened schools for doctors and nurses and that women were allowed to attend women-only institutions. A limited number of women were allowed to work for international agencies and NGO's, but they were not allowed to work in the offices of their employers; they were required to go directly from their homes to the project sites on which they worked. A Taliban edict issued in 1999 allowed needy widows with no other means of support to seek employment; but many widows reportedly were unaware of the change, and there was little work available. Women reportedly were allowed to claim international assistance directly rather than through their close male relatives, as a 1997 edict stipulated. However, male relatives still were required to obtain the permission of the PVSV for female home-based employment. Girls formally were prohibited from attending school. Formal restrictions against the education of girls remain, apart from instruction provided in mosques, which is mainly religious in content. However, there are a growing number of girls educated by international NGO's in formal schools, community-based schools, and home schools. Most citizens lack any access to adequate medical facilities, and the provision of health care under Taliban rule remains poor. Life expectancy rates are estimated at 44 years for women and 43 years for men. In most regions, there is less than 1 physician per 10,000 persons. Health services reach only 29 percent of the population and only 17 percent of the rural population. Clean water reaches only about 12 percent of the population. Health care for both men and women was hampered by the Taliban's ban on images of humans, which caused the destruction of public education posters and made the provision and dissemination of health information in a society with high levels of illiteracy more difficult. Tuberculosis rates for women and maternal mortality rates are extremely high. The Taliban significantly reduced women's access to health care, although it has since loosened restrictions somewhat. In 1997 the Taliban announced a policy of segregating men and women in hospitals; this policy reportedly continued at year's end. In 1997 in an attempt to centralize medical care for women, the Taliban also directed most hospitals in Kabul to cease services to women and to discharge female staff. Services for women were to be provided by a single hospital still partially under construction, which resulted in a drastic reduction in access to, and the quality of, health care for women. Later, women were permitted to seek treatment from female medical personnel working in designated women's wards or clinics; since June 1998 they have been permitted to seek treatment from male doctors only if accompanied by a male relative. In practice women were excluded from treatment by male physicians in most hospitals. These rules, while not enforced universally, made obtaining treatment extremely difficult for most women, and especially for Kabul's widows, many of whom have lost all such male family members. Further, even when a woman was allowed to be treated by a male doctor, he was prohibited from examining her except if she were fully clothed in Taliban-approved garb and from touching her, thus limiting the possibility of any meaningful treatment. The participants in a 1998 survey of 160 Afghan women reported little or no access to health care in Kabul. Most of the participants also reported a decline in their mental health. However, there were credible reports that the restrictions on women's health care were not applied in practice and that there were some improvements in access to health care for women during the last 2 years. By the end of 1999, all Kabul hospitals apart from the military hospital reportedly treated women. Rabia Balkhi Women's Hospital in Kabul provided a full range of health services to women, but there was only one maternity hospital in the country. The Taliban decreed what women could wear in public. Women in public spaces were required to wear a burqa, a loose, head-to-toe garment that has a small cloth screen for vision. While in many, particularly rural, areas of the country, the burqa was the customary women's outer garment, the requirement for all women to wear the burqa represented a significant change in practice for many women, particularly in urban areas. According to a decree announced by the religious police in 1997, women found outside the home who were not covered properly would be punished severely along with their family elders. In Kabul and elsewhere women found in public who were not wearing the burqa, or whose burqas did not cover their ankles properly, reportedly have been beaten by Taliban militiamen. Some women cannot afford the cost of a burqa, and thus are forced to remain at home or risk beatings if they go out without one. During 1999 there were reports of differences in the enforcement of the requirement for women to wear the burqa. Enforcement reportedly was relatively lax in rural and non-Pashtun areas, and there were reports that some women in Herat and in rural areas cover their heads with large scarves that leave the face uncovered and have not faced reprisals. The Taliban's dress code for women apparently is not enforced strictly upon the nomad population of several hundred thousand or upon the few female foreigners, who nonetheless must cover their hair, arms, and legs. Women in their homes must not be visible from the street; the Taliban require that homes with female occupants have their windows painted over. Women were expected to leave their homes only while escorted by a male relative, further curtailing the appearance and movement of women in public even when wearing approved clothing. Women appearing in public without a male relative ran the risk of beatings by the Taliban. Some observers reported seeing fewer and fewer women on the streets in Taliban-controlled areas. Women are not allowed to drive, and taxi drivers reportedly are beaten if they take unescorted women as passengers. On October 19, taxi drivers were warned by the PVSV not to pick up unaccompanied female passengers or risk a ban on their driving privileges. Women only may ride on buses designated as women's buses; there are reportedly not enough such buses to meet the demand, and the wait for women's buses can be long. In December 1998, the Taliban ordered that bus drivers who take female passengers must encase the bus in curtains and put up a curtain so that the female passengers cannot see or be seen by the driver. Bus drivers also were told that they must employ boys under the age of 15 to collect fares from female passengers and that neither the drivers nor the fare collectors were to mingle with the passengers. AI has reported that the Taliban have ordered the closure of women's public baths. Women are also forbidden to enter mosques or other places of worship unless the mosque has separate sections for men and women. Most women pray at home alone or with other family members. Women also reportedly have been prohibited from appearing on the streets for certain periods during the month of Ramadan. The Taliban's restrictions regarding the social behavior of men and women were communicated by edicts and enforced mainly by the PVSV. The U.N. and numerous other interlocutors noted that the edicts are enforced with varying degrees of rigor throughout the country. The restrictions were enforced most strictly in urban areas, where women had enjoyed wider access to educational and employment opportunities before the Taliban gained control. After her 1999 visit, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women noted some improvements in the status of women, including the existence of home schools as well as limited primary educational institutions for girls run by the Religious Ministry in Kabul; increased access of women to health care; and the permission for widows to work. The Special Rapporteur also noted continuing violations of the physical security of women and the practice of lashings and public beatings, violations of the rights to education, health, employment, freedom of movement, and freedom of association, and of family rights, including the existence of polygyny and forced marriage. She also noted that minority women sometimes were subject to forced displacement and that there were some cases of trafficking in women and children (see Section 6.f.). |
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I will remove this quote later.-- Jrkso ( talk) 22:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I actually support Jrsko's alternative, on reflection. The wording in the sources is vague at best - and represent the kind of wording we need to avoid as statements of fact. Either they should be attributed or the alternate wording used. -- Errant [tmorton166] ( chat!) 20:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Prostitution in Afghanistan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "dos":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 05:57, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
User:John B123 unnecessarily reverted my good faith edits. I'm an expert on Afghanistan but JohnB123 is someone who is sitting somewhere in England with no knowledge about Afghanistan and is putting any nonsense he finds on the internet. He is claiming in the article (to the world) that there were 12,000 prostitutes in Afghanistan in 2016 and cites a nonworking/dead link (which obviously cannot be used here as a reliable source) and another link but that one doesn't say anything about "12,000 prostitutes" in Afghanistan. In other words, John B123 wants us to believe what he believes regardless if it's true or false. He also claims that Mazar-i-Sharif is a prostitution capital. A bold claim like that must be well-sourced, and it must be well-known like how San Francisco in the United States is the capital of LGBT people. He also removed my statement ("which has members on both sides of the Durand Line"). The Shinwari tribe has relatives and even family members in both Afghanistan and Pakistan (on both sides of that border), this is well-known and the sources also say so. When we explain something about female prostitutes in England we don't repeatedly say British prostitutes or English prostitutes. The Taliban punish all prostitutes regardless of nationality, race or ethnicity. In other words, if British or Pakistani prostitutes are caught in Afghanistan they will also punish them.-- 39.41.71.211 ( talk) 20:38, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
The article called Pakistan Frontier is not a reliable a source because it doesn't provide sources itself for its claims that afghan women are trafficked into India. Not only is it blaming the former Ghani Government and India (yeah totally not biased) but its first sentence literally starts of by ASSUMING that Afghan women are trafficked into India with no secondary sources to prove as a result. Its basically conjure and i am going to remove it . Akmal94 ( talk) 04:51, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
What part of "no secondary sources" do you not understand? The article goes on to egnite its blame on India due the on-going Pak-India conflict and does not give a source to support its claims. There is no need for a census when the source is so obviously biased. It going to be removed. Akmal94 ( talk) 04:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello @ Buckshot06 I hope you’re doing swell! I’m using the talk page because I wanted to discuss your revision. I understand that it’s an “estimate”, but I’m not really sure if that addresses my main concerns with the line. The article states that there are other sources which estimate 7000 girls being sold. But the issue is the article doesn’t provide the citations or the sources anywhere. Furthermore, the biggest issue I see is that there are no other sources that collaborate this statement. Not a single one.
I hope we can come to some sort of agreement or compromise. It would be great to see to your point of view and concerns. Someguywhosbored ( talk) 06:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.This is fully met. -- John B123 ( talk) 23:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
The burden of proof is on those who add or defend the contentious material to provide sources that satisfy the concerns of the challenging editor- this refers to unsourced content, which is not the case here. -- John B123 ( talk) 23:23, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
It's good that you have taken this issue to RSN; you are effectively saying that we cannot rely on that one single source (because you want a citation, thus a non Pakistan Frontier source). What is the link to the discussion so that we can contribute at RSN? Buckshot06 (talk) 04:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
User:John B123 User:Buckshot06 Apologies for pinging you two for another conversation after we just ended the previous topic, but I found another line/source that much like the “Pakistan frontier”, is quite problematic. I felt that if I edited the page without using the talk page, my changes would probably be reverted again, so I’m here to go over something too long for the summary page. Salon appears to be cited for this line.
“Prior to foreign troops withdrawing from the country, there have been reports of brothels and prostitution around US bases”
And this is the line from the salon article.
“Even during the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, there have been multiple reports of brothels and sex trafficking involving U.S. troops and contractors.”
Now I can get to the crux of the issue. So at first glance salon seems to be a bit of a better source than Pakistani frontier(which it is although that’s not saying much), but Per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, there’s no consensus on its reliability, it’s considered biased and opinionated, and more importantly, additional considerations apply. I’ll show what those considerations are.
“There is no consensus on the reliability of Salon. Editors consider Salon biased or opinionated, and its statements should be attributed”
The last part is important because that means every and any statement from a salon article should have a source attributed to that statement in the newsletter(like a citation to another author). But this Salon article simply states that there have been reports of prostitution near U.S bases, without any sources/citations to back that claim up(much like the Pakistani frontier article) So if there’s no attribution, then this source shouldn’t be used. Because per the Perennial sources page, for there to be a salon article cited in wikipedia, it requires an attribution, which this source doesn’t have. That means this article shouldn’t be used. And this is just considerations for Salon in particular. Other articles may have different citation guidelines if there is an issue with the source much like there is for Salon.
Another issue is that this article isn't collaborated by any other reliable source. Which means that even if it was usable on wiki(which it isn’t/shouldn’t), it would need at least one other source backing it up, and in this case there isn’t.
I don’t think there’s a need to take this to RSN. Look at what’s written above the search bar in the perennial page.
“Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions.”
there’s already been multiple discussions about the newsletter and the article is listed in the perennial page. But if we can’t come to an agreement then as a last resort we could use an RSN, or ping the uninvolved users that had just voiced their opinions on the Pakistani frontier source. Someguywhosbored ( talk) 07:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
There have been reports of prostitution and sex trafficking involving U.S. troops and contractors prior to their withdrawal from the countryand additional citations added.
Commercial sex zones have developed around U.S. bases worldwide. Many look much the same, filled with liquor stores, fast-food outlets, tattoo parlors, bars and clubs, and prostitution in one form or another. The evidence is just outside the gates in places such as Baumholder and Kaiserslautern in Germany, and Kadena and Kin Town on Okinawa. Even during the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, there have been multiple reports of brothels and sex trafficking involving U.S. troops and contractors.
Someguywhosbored Thank you for your hard work on this, and batting [cricket analogy] uphill against our initial closedmindedness. The previous guy who attacked the "Pakistan Frontier" source seemed mostly worried about allegations about the honour of Afghan women. But you did the right thing, worked through the process, and resolved that issue. Now we have also imported some good new stuff about this horrible misbehaviour by Americans who ought to know better. Now, I do this military beat and I am always willing to listen (even if I reflexively sent you to RSN). Please feel free to call upon me for assistance on any related military, warfare, type issues. Kind regards, Buckshot06 (talk) 04:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
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