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restoring lead of article that was unnecessarily deleted: Initially no information was deleted at all. The info in the lead was too specific. The lead is only supposed to give a general idea. If there is an extra paragraph for history it makes sence to put historical or background info there, especially if the background is disputed or unknown.
It is necessary to distinguish the pastries or breads made in the shape of a pretzel (and made from a whole variety of doughs and a whole variety of glazes and toppings) from the crispy pretzels as a snack. I changed my own contribution to make this clear and listed three types of pretzels. The first two cannot be considered snacks, at least not in the same sense as chips etc. Many of the statements about pretzels do not apply to all these kinds. The history section mainly applies only to the pastry with the typical pretzel loop, so it’s necessary to make a distinction.
There are respective “Brezel/pretzel” articles in many other languages; there is no reason to write what pretzel sticks are called in German or Hungarian in the introduction.
I decided to remove the paragraph about “earlier times”, even though it is sourced because it is too unspecific. In earlier times Pretzels were associated with superstitions and in Europe people wore them around their necks to scare away evil spirits. Pretzels also were hung on trees to cause them to bear well. Some thought that breaking a pretzel was like breaking a wish-bone; Breaking the pretzel ceremoniously would make a wish come true. [1] I am very familiar with European history and never heard of this custom. That doesn’t mean it never existed, but it cannot have been important, certainly not wide spread and restricted to certain occasions. The “wish-bone custom” is totally unknown in Europe (at least continental Europe). A Dictionary of Gastronomy does not sound like a source to support such statements. If found absolutely necessary for the article, it should go under “miscellaneous”. I also find, the paragraph about Kepler is too much out of the way, but I left it. As proof that the pretzel shape is old it would suffice to mention it and put the rest into the sources section. Sundar1 ( talk) 15:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
it does not unambiguously define the topic for the reader and some statements are simply false.
A pretzel is a bread pastry of Medieval European origin (some accounts say Italian or French[1][2][3]) that has the shape of a three-looped knot or twisted braid. if this was the german wikipedia this statement could be considered correct because the germans differ between pretzels and pretzel sticks and have different words. this is not the case in english. since this statement neiter applies to the lye pretzel nor to the various pretzel sticks, it is wrong.
Pretzels are either soft or hard. Hard pretzels have evolved into a variety of shapes from knotted loops to straight "pretzel sticks". this statement is confusing. indeed, pretzels are either soft or hard. but where is the connection to the medieval pretzels? hard pretzels have no immediate relationship with the medievel ones which were only soft and not glazed. hard pretzels evolved only from the lye pretzel.
The pretzel dough is made from wheat flour, water, sugar, and yeast, sprinkled with coarse salt. this statement is also wrong because it only applies to lye pretzels and pretzel sticks; even for these there are different ingredients, e. g. malt and no sugar. what about all the other pretzel kinds?
Pretzels are used in southern German-speaking areas in certain customs and Christian holidays.[4][5][6][7] only one of the three types is used as such, not the lye pretzels and not the hard pretzels.
The pretzel is popular in southern Germany and adjoining German-speaking areas as a variety of bread, a side dish or a snack. only the soft lye pretzel is considered a variety of bread and used for a side dish or a snack.
i do not agree with your interpretation of wikipedia or whatever other rules, although i did have in mind to change the list into prose which easily can be done. the purpose of the lead is absolutely clear and can be fulfilled in different ways. whatever is most suitable should be applied and in most cases indeed pure prose is used. there are many wikipedia articles with numbered or bulleted lists and the reason for an article to be “featured” certainly is not because it doesn’t have such a list in the lead. so far i found no article in which a list in the lead has been critisized.
we happen to be dealing with a term that refers to at least two different things: a looped pastry and a pretzel stick. at first glance they have nothing in common. then there is the lye pretzel which connects the two. the lead you are defending does not address this important aspect or make it clear. perhaps it should be considered to to break this up into at least two articles: pretzels (referring to all soft types including the lye pretzel) and pretzel sticks and their varieties and list them in the disambiguation as such. as long as this is not done the differentiation is necessary in the lead and that’s best done with a list.
i changed the bullets to numbers which even better reflect the development. yet, if you are so upset about the list, you can easily drop the numbers, only need to add an “or” and, voilà, there’s your prose. but, of course, as i wrote before, we know that is not the real issue, is it?
i re-introduced the three pictures in the lead because they cover the three basic types of pretzels. aslo, galleries are quite common in articles and there is nothing wrong in keeping this one. indeed, some of the pictuers are too much but pictures of non-lye pretzel varieties must stay. b.t.w., i think “important points in american pretzel history” is a joke. happy new year. Sundar1 ( talk) 19:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
three images in the lead are a problem….. they are ugly and crowd out the rest of the article. You have also combined many small unrelated paragraphs into large, less readable paragraphs, and inserted large amounts of images that do not increase the reader's understanding of the article... The gallery in this article is absolutely superfluous.. You also continue to use the word "fest" in an unacceptable way.. I have attempted time and time again to fix these errors but you continue to re-insert them
i find it very hard to respond to this kind of argumentation that has little to do with content which should primarily be discussed. there is nothing ugly about the pictures and they aren’t crowding anything. i’m sorry, but such a paragraph on american pretzel history and a list of for “american pretzel history” in a general article on the pretzel is a joke. where would we end, if i added a corresponding paragraph for the pretzel history of other countries? you can argue about one or the other picture in the gallery but as a whole it is not superfluous and certainly not “absolutely” superfluous. in my last edit i did not use the word “fest”. as i explained the last time, i took pain not to delete your spelling and grammar editions. it’s possible that one or the other escaped my attention but your statement “time and time again” is unwarranted.
I still have no idea what issues you have with it i have clearly explained what is wrong with it and will not repeat myself.
all I have done is restore sourced information that was previously there, as well as keeping some of the information that you inserted in a less-wordy fashion and removing information that is not relevant to the lead as a summary of the article
i can add to the list of mistakes in the lead that sourced information in the lead is taken out of context and therefore misleading and wrong. the sources talk about different kinds of pretzels and recipes, salty ones and sweet ones. the recipes for sweet and salty pretzels have little in common. the info you removed explains the relationship between the pretzel types and is necessary to understand the article.
You have also combined many small unrelated paragraphs into large, less readable paragraphs…which would these be?
less-wordy fashion.. have simply corrected your numerous spelling, capitalization, and formatting errors….no information has been changed or lost you have pointed this out numerous times but i’m afraid you will have to live with these shortcomings. no use to keep pointing your fingers at them. and, coming to think of it, i don’t see why i should bother checking my writing for american spelling, which i am not familiar with. i will leave that up to you, too. you did drop a lot of info which i put back. else, i left the section “german-speaking countries” the way you put it.
Please keep in mind that German and English syntaxes are different ...no kidding
indeed, articles in foreign languages are available. i more consider this section as an invitation to other readers to add info on the pretzel in their country. it will be no sacrilege to keep it in.
unless you come forth with factual problems or strict rules that i’m unaware of and unless you explain the factual correctness of your lead, it cannot remain as it is. my edits may not confirm 100% to the rules, they way you see them, but at least they are factually correct, logical and clear. Sundar1 ( talk) 13:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi. To begin on the third opinion, please provide a single sentence that summarizes the dispute as you see it:
Thanks. Gigs ( talk) 20:43, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Hope this helps Gigs ( talk) 21:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Pretzels were first made by a monk form france in 162 A.D. he made them to look like childrens hands crossed praying and they called them little rewards.At first there were only soft pretzels the hard crispy one were made by accident a cook that was maning the stove fell asleep then they were hard and they thought they were ruinded but crispy hard pretzels were delicious now are made purposly and thats the story of pretzels begining.And the people who hate pretzels and never tried them you should try them they are delicious trust me i am not lieing so try them and think about how they were made and try making your own old time pretzel —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidude36 ( talk • contribs) 00:57, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
turkish simits and the related pastries in the balkans are not pretzels, simply because they don't have the distinctive shape. perhaps there is a historical relationship. if that is the case there could be a section "related pastries", of course with sources explaining this relationship. else, why not write an own article on the delicious simts and their background? Sundar1 ( talk) 05:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The sentence "the German holiday Die Brezel Krieg where Germans have a baking contest to see who has the best pretzels." simply seems to be - wrong and a hoax.
1) The grammar / spelling is wrong:
a) "Krieg" (war) is male in the German language. Thus, the only correct phrase would be "Der Brezelkrieg".
b) "Brezel Krieg" is a wrong spelling, because, in the German language, compositions of two words are constucted in a way that both words which are composed are amalgamated into one word: Instead of "Brezel Krieg", "Brezelkrieg" would be the only correct spelling.
2) The word "Krieg" (war) is almost never used for a competition, as it has too negative connotations.
3) "Brezelkrieg" surely is not a (public) holiday in any German state.
4) I have been living in Germany for almost 40 years and never heard of such competition.
Thus, I will delete the sentence if no reference showing that a "Die Brezel Krieg" holiday does exist will be provided within two weeks.
-- 92.225.37.166 ( talk) 20:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
The history section contains the passage: The wedding phrase "tying the knot" got its start when a pretzel was used to tie the knot between two prominent families.[citation needed]
This sentence doesn't even make sense. It's using a circular definition. Apart from that, I had always been under the impression that the phrase "tying the knot" as relates to marriage came from the old tradition of handfasting. I am removing the sentence from the article. Tenmiles ( talk) 19:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I think it might be fair to include the #1 most popular topping or 'sauce' on a pretzel, mustard, whether yellow or spicy or any other kind. Just a thought. Dave 09:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davesilvan ( talk • contribs)
Sorry for my english, I am from Bavaria. Really nobody here calles it "Brezen". Everywhere inclusive all bakeries it is written as "Breze" or "Brezn". This is true for Old Bavaria (I don't have a clue for Frankonia) and Svabia. (Of course, anyone will understand you, if you ask for a "Brez*", indepently what you use for "*" 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 20:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
An editor should consider entering some factual snippets about Auntie Anne's history in Pennsylvania.
Might you add the following to Pennsylvania Milestones:
1988: Anne Beiler bought a market stand in a Downingtown, Pa. farmer’s market and began selling the Original Pretzel. Today, Auntie Anne’s Pretzels is the world’s largest soft pretzel franchise with more than 1,400 pretzel stores operating around the world.
http://www.auntieannes.com/AboutUs/CompanyHistory.aspx http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/Anne_Beiler_030408.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_F._Beiler
Also, can you consider adding the following under the United States:
Existing: Pennsylvania today is the center of American pretzel production for both the hard crispy and the soft bread types of pretzels.[30] Southeastern Pennsylvania, with its large population of German background, is considered the birthplace of the American pretzel industry, and many pretzel bakers are still located in the area. Pennsylvania produces 80% of the nation's pretzels.[34]
New: Lancaster, Pa. is also the headquarters of Auntie Anne’s Pretzels, which turned 25 in February 2013. Auntie Anne's bakers have hand-rolled approximately 1.7 billion pretzels over the past 25 years.
http://www.auntieannes.com/AboutUs/CompanyHistory/25-birthday.aspx http://www.auntieannes.com/aboutus/newsroom/newsroom/13-01-24/Soft_Pretzel_Icon_Auntie_Anne_s_Turns_25_after_Banner_Company_Year.aspx http://www.qsrmagazine.com/news/auntie-annes-twists-its-way-25th-country Thank you. WikiWikiJG ( talk) 20:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Hafspajen ( talk) 22:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Are pretzel bread and pretzel buns a fairly new phenomenon?
Also, this article really needs some serious copy editing to correct some of the conflicting info and verbosity. 76.173.142.15 ( talk) 04:33, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
This lengthy article somehow manages to avoid the question, other than one passing mention of yeast. Are pretzels generally made with yeast, baking soda, or are they unleavened? This is so basic that it seems to be assumed and never explained. Reify-tech ( talk) 14:47, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
With all respect I don't agree and before once more you removed several images that were in article for ages will you discuss WHY you want to remove them. First of all you remove historical images, and you have no idea how difficult to find ANY image about pretzels in art history. VERY VERY seldom that pretzels are depicted in art, and each image is a valuable witnessing about their existence. Second, the image with pretzels you keep removing is spectacular and good, a good image made by a sadly missed editor, who really was a genius with images. Third, if you are interfering with others edits and you see they don't agree, time to discuss. Th Hafspajen ( talk) 18:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
1) I see no new information in the picture "Pretzels in Alsace". Another photo shows the same type of pretzels sold on a Christmas market. The quality of the picture is equally good. This is also more informative, as it shows the tradition of selling pretzels on Christmas markets. But what do we learn from the photo where the same Alsacian pretzels hang on the wall? If it is "spectacular" without any new information, it can be viewed on Commons. There is a gallery page commons:Pretzels where all such aesthetically appealing images can be shown. There is a link to Commons from this page.
2) There is a picture "Fish lunch by Jacob Foppens van Es, before 1640" in the history section. Flemish painting from 17th century. From this we learn pretzels were common in the Netherlands already in the 17th century. We also see how they were presented on the table. We also see how the painters treated them in they (realistic) painting style. This an interesting illustration. Why do we need two more flemish paintings from the 17th century, all in the same painting style, in the same article? What do we learn from them? If the frequency of pretzels occuring in paintings is so interesting, then describe it in the text or start a new article "Pretzels in art" and explain what is the difference between these paintings. Otherwise these images can be viewed on Commons in commons:Category:Pretzels in art. One can create a gallery page commons:Pretzels in art there. -- Off-shell ( talk) 19:04, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
This could make a good gallery page on Commons. What do you mean when you say they are not available on Commons? -- Off-shell ( talk) 23:03, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
OK, continuing from my comments of nearly a decade ago and my more recent edit... I see by Hadspajen's recent work that the idea that pretzels date precisely AD 610 is, in fact, very widespread, and not just an invention of Buch and Hellemans'. Where on earth does this idea originally come from?? The earliest reference I can find so far is this one, from 1959. Can anyone do better? -- Iustinus ( talk) 08:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
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In the opener, literally the last line:
You can't walk away on a bombshell like that. Who are these big players with their hands in the dough? Where are these high-price morsels being sold, and what's so special about them, are they made of rolled gold or something? I think people would like to know why we aren't going to Mars anymore these days but we have so much money to spend on snacks, especially in a single transaction.
184.149.39.148 ( talk) 16:04, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Kid boy chow. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. gnu 57 14:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't mean to disparage Mr Weaver's knowledge at all, but one reference to an "independent food historian and author of numerous books", none of which are academic but rather popular, does not really support the statement "modern scholars identify the pretzel." In the absence of anything else at most the article should say something like "one modern writer claims that ...." -- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:2459:C1EC:C71B:4617 ( talk) 11:18, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Hear! Hear! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:AA6:3000:A071:F60E:C5A2:F2A ( talk) 20:10, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Another possible source for this is Hilda Ellis Davidson, an actual academic who drew a link between bread offerings to Nehalennia (not Sirona), Dutch duivekater bread, and sacrificial substitution. The recipe is similar to pretzels, and both are Celtic water goddesses. The discussion is in the context of animal, not human, sacrifice. I would suspect that the writer of the cited article heard this, misunderstood, and put the name of the wrong Celtic goddess. There is a citation on the Nehalennia page talking about this [ [1]].
Hemiauchenia I reverted your removal of content cited to Atlas Obscura. The reason you gave for your removal is that "Atlas Obscura is not a reliable source". I don't think Atlas Obscura is a good source to use for anything controversial but it's an ok source for basic facts. I've looked at the Atlas Obscura article used here and this very well may be controversial and not the kind of thing we should use Atlas Obscura for. It should be checked against other reliable sources but it would be a good idea to leave the dubious tags in place for now. I'll take a closer look at it later. Spudlace ( talk) 22:55, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
@ Largoplazo: removed the foreign language terms from the article (see this edit [2]). I agree about WP:NOTDICTIONARY. This definitely skirts the boundaries of the guideline but there are frequent objections to doing this. I wonder if it is beneficial in food articles to WP:PRESERVE the foreign language terms. We want all cultures where the dish has a cultural significance represented, without too many redundant spin offs. We could be more demanding on sources to show that it's a culturally significant dish in the languages mentioned, so it wouldn't be as much like a dictionary. Spudlace ( talk) 01:12, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
I propose the information for Kringle should be merged here on Pretzel. There is clear overlap, as Kringle states already it is "a variety of pretzel". So basically put it here under Geography with a separate subheading for something like Northern Europe - Kringle. At the moment it seems extremely weird that there isn't even good crosslinking between these two articles. Additionally, having these two separate creates problems and confusion when trying to interlink different languages. Gemena ( talk) 20:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Back in 1934 smitties soft pretzels was established by Lester Smith in York county the family would use their soft pretzels cut lengthwise making a top and bottom for making a sandwich, later on they decided to tightly twist their dough so as to have no holes thus inventing the tasty soft pretzel bun. Smitties soft pretzels is now located on route 74 just outside of dover Pennsylvania in the direction of dillsburg Pennsylvania the bakery with it's historical merry go round oven and lighthouse pretzel stand are favorites of tourists to travel to to buy and consume their tasty doughy treats. Aprilajacob ( talk) 11:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Why is wikipedia #1, but always wrong? The article states that the pretzel was invented in 1600, and became a symbol of all bakers by 1100. So... the pretzel is capable of time-travel? 79.106.203.116 ( talk) 07:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
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restoring lead of article that was unnecessarily deleted: Initially no information was deleted at all. The info in the lead was too specific. The lead is only supposed to give a general idea. If there is an extra paragraph for history it makes sence to put historical or background info there, especially if the background is disputed or unknown.
It is necessary to distinguish the pastries or breads made in the shape of a pretzel (and made from a whole variety of doughs and a whole variety of glazes and toppings) from the crispy pretzels as a snack. I changed my own contribution to make this clear and listed three types of pretzels. The first two cannot be considered snacks, at least not in the same sense as chips etc. Many of the statements about pretzels do not apply to all these kinds. The history section mainly applies only to the pastry with the typical pretzel loop, so it’s necessary to make a distinction.
There are respective “Brezel/pretzel” articles in many other languages; there is no reason to write what pretzel sticks are called in German or Hungarian in the introduction.
I decided to remove the paragraph about “earlier times”, even though it is sourced because it is too unspecific. In earlier times Pretzels were associated with superstitions and in Europe people wore them around their necks to scare away evil spirits. Pretzels also were hung on trees to cause them to bear well. Some thought that breaking a pretzel was like breaking a wish-bone; Breaking the pretzel ceremoniously would make a wish come true. [1] I am very familiar with European history and never heard of this custom. That doesn’t mean it never existed, but it cannot have been important, certainly not wide spread and restricted to certain occasions. The “wish-bone custom” is totally unknown in Europe (at least continental Europe). A Dictionary of Gastronomy does not sound like a source to support such statements. If found absolutely necessary for the article, it should go under “miscellaneous”. I also find, the paragraph about Kepler is too much out of the way, but I left it. As proof that the pretzel shape is old it would suffice to mention it and put the rest into the sources section. Sundar1 ( talk) 15:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
it does not unambiguously define the topic for the reader and some statements are simply false.
A pretzel is a bread pastry of Medieval European origin (some accounts say Italian or French[1][2][3]) that has the shape of a three-looped knot or twisted braid. if this was the german wikipedia this statement could be considered correct because the germans differ between pretzels and pretzel sticks and have different words. this is not the case in english. since this statement neiter applies to the lye pretzel nor to the various pretzel sticks, it is wrong.
Pretzels are either soft or hard. Hard pretzels have evolved into a variety of shapes from knotted loops to straight "pretzel sticks". this statement is confusing. indeed, pretzels are either soft or hard. but where is the connection to the medieval pretzels? hard pretzels have no immediate relationship with the medievel ones which were only soft and not glazed. hard pretzels evolved only from the lye pretzel.
The pretzel dough is made from wheat flour, water, sugar, and yeast, sprinkled with coarse salt. this statement is also wrong because it only applies to lye pretzels and pretzel sticks; even for these there are different ingredients, e. g. malt and no sugar. what about all the other pretzel kinds?
Pretzels are used in southern German-speaking areas in certain customs and Christian holidays.[4][5][6][7] only one of the three types is used as such, not the lye pretzels and not the hard pretzels.
The pretzel is popular in southern Germany and adjoining German-speaking areas as a variety of bread, a side dish or a snack. only the soft lye pretzel is considered a variety of bread and used for a side dish or a snack.
i do not agree with your interpretation of wikipedia or whatever other rules, although i did have in mind to change the list into prose which easily can be done. the purpose of the lead is absolutely clear and can be fulfilled in different ways. whatever is most suitable should be applied and in most cases indeed pure prose is used. there are many wikipedia articles with numbered or bulleted lists and the reason for an article to be “featured” certainly is not because it doesn’t have such a list in the lead. so far i found no article in which a list in the lead has been critisized.
we happen to be dealing with a term that refers to at least two different things: a looped pastry and a pretzel stick. at first glance they have nothing in common. then there is the lye pretzel which connects the two. the lead you are defending does not address this important aspect or make it clear. perhaps it should be considered to to break this up into at least two articles: pretzels (referring to all soft types including the lye pretzel) and pretzel sticks and their varieties and list them in the disambiguation as such. as long as this is not done the differentiation is necessary in the lead and that’s best done with a list.
i changed the bullets to numbers which even better reflect the development. yet, if you are so upset about the list, you can easily drop the numbers, only need to add an “or” and, voilà, there’s your prose. but, of course, as i wrote before, we know that is not the real issue, is it?
i re-introduced the three pictures in the lead because they cover the three basic types of pretzels. aslo, galleries are quite common in articles and there is nothing wrong in keeping this one. indeed, some of the pictuers are too much but pictures of non-lye pretzel varieties must stay. b.t.w., i think “important points in american pretzel history” is a joke. happy new year. Sundar1 ( talk) 19:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
three images in the lead are a problem….. they are ugly and crowd out the rest of the article. You have also combined many small unrelated paragraphs into large, less readable paragraphs, and inserted large amounts of images that do not increase the reader's understanding of the article... The gallery in this article is absolutely superfluous.. You also continue to use the word "fest" in an unacceptable way.. I have attempted time and time again to fix these errors but you continue to re-insert them
i find it very hard to respond to this kind of argumentation that has little to do with content which should primarily be discussed. there is nothing ugly about the pictures and they aren’t crowding anything. i’m sorry, but such a paragraph on american pretzel history and a list of for “american pretzel history” in a general article on the pretzel is a joke. where would we end, if i added a corresponding paragraph for the pretzel history of other countries? you can argue about one or the other picture in the gallery but as a whole it is not superfluous and certainly not “absolutely” superfluous. in my last edit i did not use the word “fest”. as i explained the last time, i took pain not to delete your spelling and grammar editions. it’s possible that one or the other escaped my attention but your statement “time and time again” is unwarranted.
I still have no idea what issues you have with it i have clearly explained what is wrong with it and will not repeat myself.
all I have done is restore sourced information that was previously there, as well as keeping some of the information that you inserted in a less-wordy fashion and removing information that is not relevant to the lead as a summary of the article
i can add to the list of mistakes in the lead that sourced information in the lead is taken out of context and therefore misleading and wrong. the sources talk about different kinds of pretzels and recipes, salty ones and sweet ones. the recipes for sweet and salty pretzels have little in common. the info you removed explains the relationship between the pretzel types and is necessary to understand the article.
You have also combined many small unrelated paragraphs into large, less readable paragraphs…which would these be?
less-wordy fashion.. have simply corrected your numerous spelling, capitalization, and formatting errors….no information has been changed or lost you have pointed this out numerous times but i’m afraid you will have to live with these shortcomings. no use to keep pointing your fingers at them. and, coming to think of it, i don’t see why i should bother checking my writing for american spelling, which i am not familiar with. i will leave that up to you, too. you did drop a lot of info which i put back. else, i left the section “german-speaking countries” the way you put it.
Please keep in mind that German and English syntaxes are different ...no kidding
indeed, articles in foreign languages are available. i more consider this section as an invitation to other readers to add info on the pretzel in their country. it will be no sacrilege to keep it in.
unless you come forth with factual problems or strict rules that i’m unaware of and unless you explain the factual correctness of your lead, it cannot remain as it is. my edits may not confirm 100% to the rules, they way you see them, but at least they are factually correct, logical and clear. Sundar1 ( talk) 13:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi. To begin on the third opinion, please provide a single sentence that summarizes the dispute as you see it:
Thanks. Gigs ( talk) 20:43, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Hope this helps Gigs ( talk) 21:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Pretzels were first made by a monk form france in 162 A.D. he made them to look like childrens hands crossed praying and they called them little rewards.At first there were only soft pretzels the hard crispy one were made by accident a cook that was maning the stove fell asleep then they were hard and they thought they were ruinded but crispy hard pretzels were delicious now are made purposly and thats the story of pretzels begining.And the people who hate pretzels and never tried them you should try them they are delicious trust me i am not lieing so try them and think about how they were made and try making your own old time pretzel —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidude36 ( talk • contribs) 00:57, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
turkish simits and the related pastries in the balkans are not pretzels, simply because they don't have the distinctive shape. perhaps there is a historical relationship. if that is the case there could be a section "related pastries", of course with sources explaining this relationship. else, why not write an own article on the delicious simts and their background? Sundar1 ( talk) 05:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The sentence "the German holiday Die Brezel Krieg where Germans have a baking contest to see who has the best pretzels." simply seems to be - wrong and a hoax.
1) The grammar / spelling is wrong:
a) "Krieg" (war) is male in the German language. Thus, the only correct phrase would be "Der Brezelkrieg".
b) "Brezel Krieg" is a wrong spelling, because, in the German language, compositions of two words are constucted in a way that both words which are composed are amalgamated into one word: Instead of "Brezel Krieg", "Brezelkrieg" would be the only correct spelling.
2) The word "Krieg" (war) is almost never used for a competition, as it has too negative connotations.
3) "Brezelkrieg" surely is not a (public) holiday in any German state.
4) I have been living in Germany for almost 40 years and never heard of such competition.
Thus, I will delete the sentence if no reference showing that a "Die Brezel Krieg" holiday does exist will be provided within two weeks.
-- 92.225.37.166 ( talk) 20:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
The history section contains the passage: The wedding phrase "tying the knot" got its start when a pretzel was used to tie the knot between two prominent families.[citation needed]
This sentence doesn't even make sense. It's using a circular definition. Apart from that, I had always been under the impression that the phrase "tying the knot" as relates to marriage came from the old tradition of handfasting. I am removing the sentence from the article. Tenmiles ( talk) 19:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I think it might be fair to include the #1 most popular topping or 'sauce' on a pretzel, mustard, whether yellow or spicy or any other kind. Just a thought. Dave 09:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davesilvan ( talk • contribs)
Sorry for my english, I am from Bavaria. Really nobody here calles it "Brezen". Everywhere inclusive all bakeries it is written as "Breze" or "Brezn". This is true for Old Bavaria (I don't have a clue for Frankonia) and Svabia. (Of course, anyone will understand you, if you ask for a "Brez*", indepently what you use for "*" 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 20:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
An editor should consider entering some factual snippets about Auntie Anne's history in Pennsylvania.
Might you add the following to Pennsylvania Milestones:
1988: Anne Beiler bought a market stand in a Downingtown, Pa. farmer’s market and began selling the Original Pretzel. Today, Auntie Anne’s Pretzels is the world’s largest soft pretzel franchise with more than 1,400 pretzel stores operating around the world.
http://www.auntieannes.com/AboutUs/CompanyHistory.aspx http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/Anne_Beiler_030408.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_F._Beiler
Also, can you consider adding the following under the United States:
Existing: Pennsylvania today is the center of American pretzel production for both the hard crispy and the soft bread types of pretzels.[30] Southeastern Pennsylvania, with its large population of German background, is considered the birthplace of the American pretzel industry, and many pretzel bakers are still located in the area. Pennsylvania produces 80% of the nation's pretzels.[34]
New: Lancaster, Pa. is also the headquarters of Auntie Anne’s Pretzels, which turned 25 in February 2013. Auntie Anne's bakers have hand-rolled approximately 1.7 billion pretzels over the past 25 years.
http://www.auntieannes.com/AboutUs/CompanyHistory/25-birthday.aspx http://www.auntieannes.com/aboutus/newsroom/newsroom/13-01-24/Soft_Pretzel_Icon_Auntie_Anne_s_Turns_25_after_Banner_Company_Year.aspx http://www.qsrmagazine.com/news/auntie-annes-twists-its-way-25th-country Thank you. WikiWikiJG ( talk) 20:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Hafspajen ( talk) 22:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Are pretzel bread and pretzel buns a fairly new phenomenon?
Also, this article really needs some serious copy editing to correct some of the conflicting info and verbosity. 76.173.142.15 ( talk) 04:33, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
This lengthy article somehow manages to avoid the question, other than one passing mention of yeast. Are pretzels generally made with yeast, baking soda, or are they unleavened? This is so basic that it seems to be assumed and never explained. Reify-tech ( talk) 14:47, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
With all respect I don't agree and before once more you removed several images that were in article for ages will you discuss WHY you want to remove them. First of all you remove historical images, and you have no idea how difficult to find ANY image about pretzels in art history. VERY VERY seldom that pretzels are depicted in art, and each image is a valuable witnessing about their existence. Second, the image with pretzels you keep removing is spectacular and good, a good image made by a sadly missed editor, who really was a genius with images. Third, if you are interfering with others edits and you see they don't agree, time to discuss. Th Hafspajen ( talk) 18:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
1) I see no new information in the picture "Pretzels in Alsace". Another photo shows the same type of pretzels sold on a Christmas market. The quality of the picture is equally good. This is also more informative, as it shows the tradition of selling pretzels on Christmas markets. But what do we learn from the photo where the same Alsacian pretzels hang on the wall? If it is "spectacular" without any new information, it can be viewed on Commons. There is a gallery page commons:Pretzels where all such aesthetically appealing images can be shown. There is a link to Commons from this page.
2) There is a picture "Fish lunch by Jacob Foppens van Es, before 1640" in the history section. Flemish painting from 17th century. From this we learn pretzels were common in the Netherlands already in the 17th century. We also see how they were presented on the table. We also see how the painters treated them in they (realistic) painting style. This an interesting illustration. Why do we need two more flemish paintings from the 17th century, all in the same painting style, in the same article? What do we learn from them? If the frequency of pretzels occuring in paintings is so interesting, then describe it in the text or start a new article "Pretzels in art" and explain what is the difference between these paintings. Otherwise these images can be viewed on Commons in commons:Category:Pretzels in art. One can create a gallery page commons:Pretzels in art there. -- Off-shell ( talk) 19:04, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
This could make a good gallery page on Commons. What do you mean when you say they are not available on Commons? -- Off-shell ( talk) 23:03, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
OK, continuing from my comments of nearly a decade ago and my more recent edit... I see by Hadspajen's recent work that the idea that pretzels date precisely AD 610 is, in fact, very widespread, and not just an invention of Buch and Hellemans'. Where on earth does this idea originally come from?? The earliest reference I can find so far is this one, from 1959. Can anyone do better? -- Iustinus ( talk) 08:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
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In the opener, literally the last line:
You can't walk away on a bombshell like that. Who are these big players with their hands in the dough? Where are these high-price morsels being sold, and what's so special about them, are they made of rolled gold or something? I think people would like to know why we aren't going to Mars anymore these days but we have so much money to spend on snacks, especially in a single transaction.
184.149.39.148 ( talk) 16:04, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Kid boy chow. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. gnu 57 14:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't mean to disparage Mr Weaver's knowledge at all, but one reference to an "independent food historian and author of numerous books", none of which are academic but rather popular, does not really support the statement "modern scholars identify the pretzel." In the absence of anything else at most the article should say something like "one modern writer claims that ...." -- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:2459:C1EC:C71B:4617 ( talk) 11:18, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Hear! Hear! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:AA6:3000:A071:F60E:C5A2:F2A ( talk) 20:10, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Another possible source for this is Hilda Ellis Davidson, an actual academic who drew a link between bread offerings to Nehalennia (not Sirona), Dutch duivekater bread, and sacrificial substitution. The recipe is similar to pretzels, and both are Celtic water goddesses. The discussion is in the context of animal, not human, sacrifice. I would suspect that the writer of the cited article heard this, misunderstood, and put the name of the wrong Celtic goddess. There is a citation on the Nehalennia page talking about this [ [1]].
Hemiauchenia I reverted your removal of content cited to Atlas Obscura. The reason you gave for your removal is that "Atlas Obscura is not a reliable source". I don't think Atlas Obscura is a good source to use for anything controversial but it's an ok source for basic facts. I've looked at the Atlas Obscura article used here and this very well may be controversial and not the kind of thing we should use Atlas Obscura for. It should be checked against other reliable sources but it would be a good idea to leave the dubious tags in place for now. I'll take a closer look at it later. Spudlace ( talk) 22:55, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
@ Largoplazo: removed the foreign language terms from the article (see this edit [2]). I agree about WP:NOTDICTIONARY. This definitely skirts the boundaries of the guideline but there are frequent objections to doing this. I wonder if it is beneficial in food articles to WP:PRESERVE the foreign language terms. We want all cultures where the dish has a cultural significance represented, without too many redundant spin offs. We could be more demanding on sources to show that it's a culturally significant dish in the languages mentioned, so it wouldn't be as much like a dictionary. Spudlace ( talk) 01:12, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
I propose the information for Kringle should be merged here on Pretzel. There is clear overlap, as Kringle states already it is "a variety of pretzel". So basically put it here under Geography with a separate subheading for something like Northern Europe - Kringle. At the moment it seems extremely weird that there isn't even good crosslinking between these two articles. Additionally, having these two separate creates problems and confusion when trying to interlink different languages. Gemena ( talk) 20:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Back in 1934 smitties soft pretzels was established by Lester Smith in York county the family would use their soft pretzels cut lengthwise making a top and bottom for making a sandwich, later on they decided to tightly twist their dough so as to have no holes thus inventing the tasty soft pretzel bun. Smitties soft pretzels is now located on route 74 just outside of dover Pennsylvania in the direction of dillsburg Pennsylvania the bakery with it's historical merry go round oven and lighthouse pretzel stand are favorites of tourists to travel to to buy and consume their tasty doughy treats. Aprilajacob ( talk) 11:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Why is wikipedia #1, but always wrong? The article states that the pretzel was invented in 1600, and became a symbol of all bakers by 1100. So... the pretzel is capable of time-travel? 79.106.203.116 ( talk) 07:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)