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The request for arbitration was accepted:
-- John Vandenberg ( talk) 00:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
comment here 147.114.226.172 ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I understand, the article is protected from editing (at least I cannot edit it), but there is no tag. Please some of admins, place the protection tag. Mukadderat ( talk) 22:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
PLEASE EXPLAIN why the article is NOT tagged as "Protected"? Mukadderat ( talk) 22:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I've posted a merge request on Criticism of Prem Rawat. I propose that we merge that article into this one because they have the same basic topic and because there is sufficient room in this article to handle all significant viewpoints that can be reliably sourced. If material needs to be spun off to maintain a reasonable size then we can find other material to move out. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The current article summarizes all the above comments in fair proportion and in the appropriate place. Counter comments from scholars such as Andrew Kopkind,[1] Charles H. Lippy,[2] John Bassett McCleary,[3] Ruth Prince and David Riches,[4] Bryan R. Wilson,[5] Dennis Marcellino, Erwin Fahlbusch,[6] Tim Miller, Raymond Lee, Rosemary Goring,[7] George D. Chryssides, David V. Barrett, Lucy DuPertuis, J. Gordon Melton, Jeffrey K. Hadden, Eugene M. Elliot III,[8] Sandra S. Frankiel,[9] and James Lewis. Barrett, Dupertuis, Melton are notably absent. Momento ( talk) 01:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
There are three types of "merge" described in Wikipedia editing - which to use depends on how much content of the source page you want to keep, and how much time and skill you have to do the merge:
I presume we are doing the selective paste merge which involves deciding what content to keep. For example, you surely don't expect to put this in the Rawat article -"An article written by Wim Haan, published in the official magazine of the Free University of Amsterdam in 1981, forwards several critical statements. In the article, Haan wrote that he was a member of a critical movement within the Roman Catholic Church and that he was a student of theology at a Pastoral and Theology school in a small town in the Netherlands. In that article, based on his description of his involvement with the DLM over the course of two years in the Netherlands, he asserts that Rawat's battle against the mind sometimes degenerated into complete irrationality, that sometimes premies branded every critical and objective approach as "mind", and that they often avoided discussions with outsiders because these discussions could possibly stimulate the mind". Or do you? Momento ( talk) 06:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
<<< I think it is premature to ask for unprotection. The ArbCom case is just a few days from closing, at which point we will have the necessary framework to engage in discussions and resume editing without disruption.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk)
02:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
<< What is the purpose of all these discussions here, when Will Beback has already taken it upon himself, and without discussion or seeking consesus, moved large portions of the material in that old article to Divine Light Mission, and Elan Vital (organization)? I will continue the discussion about the moved material in the respective articles. Now, my turn to ask a question, Will: Why? Why are you on one hand seem interested in discussing issues, and on the other hand you seem to dismiss the need for discussion, almost as if to prove a point. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't know who added the quote, I can see why some people would want that quote in the article, but seriously, are you kidding me?? Not surprisingly, since jossi is the only one who's done anything other than clean-up work, the
Sophia Collier page (as well as this article) neglects to mention that she's a former student of Rawat's. And this article gives that quote way too much weight. This is not a quote from a scholar's book, it's an autobiography, of someone who was 16 at the time she was living in an ashram (for a month), and the book wasn't written until 6 years later. Also, jossi, while you're at it, if you want to fix Sophia's article, I am pretty sure she didn't sell her beverage company to
Joseph E. Seagram in 1989, since he'd been dead for about 70 years at that point. If I can find some sources, I will try and edit that article later.
I don't even know how to express my incredulity at this addition. I have seen people on this article "freak out" because a reference was from a sociologist/psychologist/historian/scientist/scholar/whatever's PhD thesis, and therefore has undue weight, but a passing reference from a 16 year old girl who talks about her drug abuse and LSD experiences during that time in her life, written 6 years after the fact, that's ok with the same people?!? --
Maelefique
(talk)
15:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Collier book, let's remember that it is an autobiography, hence a primary source. WP:PSTS:
We can use it, we just need to be careful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Were they all "ordained" (pick your own word if needed) by Prem Rawat personally? Were all Mahatmas equal in status? In knowledge/ability? Could any Mahatma give the Knowledge (during the DLM days?)? Anyone have any good sources on the Mahatmas specifically? -- Maelefique (talk) 05:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Haan's 1981 account ( [2]) gives some detail about the mahatmas, by and large consistent with Momento's account above (e.g. renaming to "initiators", p. 47; privileged to give Knowledge and in high esteem within the movement, p. 37-38; their number reduced to about 50 shortly before autumn 1981, p. 57 footnote 3; etc).
Note that at /scholars Melton is not the only one mentioning mahatmas. Some other authors also give detail, e.g. from India; saffron robe (Geaves); "at this writing, all but one of Guru Maharaj Ji's some two thousand mahatmas are from India or Tibet" (Messer 1976); etc. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | If I have questions about the process or content of The Keys, is there someone I can call? You can ask questions or make comments either at "Inquiries" on this website or by speaking with a telephone assistant at any time during the preparation process. |
” |
-- Maelefique (talk) 16:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
What a boring read, why don't you all put your guns down. and start the whole article again in a friendly constructive way?
you could collaborate and actually 'have' an article..?
Personally I feel that as your primarily discussing an individual his basic human rights have priority..? I wouldn't like people publicly debating the truth of my life, (especially so aggressively).
There seems to be some malice involved too, what about live and let live...?
kiss (keep it simple stupid).
If you think it's boring don't read it. PatW ( talk) 13:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The request for arbitration was accepted:
-- John Vandenberg ( talk) 00:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
comment here 147.114.226.172 ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Downton says "We learned from the Mahatma that, if Jesus Christ was our master that was fine because Guru Maharaj Ji, in essence, was no different from Jesus Christ". Does that sound like a claim of divinity to anyone else? -- Maelefique (talk) 07:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
No need for priests in Rawat's case. He proclaimed his divine status himself on many occasions. One has only to read his speeches from DLM magazines from the time. I have a question. You have already resisted the use of Sophie Colliers book which was used here in a highly selective manner to illustrate how Rawat said to reporters that he was not God. What was omitted was the surrounding context which clearly indicated that Collier saw how Rawat spoke out of both sides of his mouth about such matters. Ie. gave his followers a far different impression. (I argued ad nauseam about that). Had someone then pointed out we can't use Collier because she's just a stoned follower then that would have neatly solved that problem. (Actually I've read Collier and I thought her book was intelligent and honest). In the past I limited my involvement here to trying to establish ground rules on what publications were permissable. I (unlike Momento and Ruminton} made the gesture of not editing until that was clear. That argument became entrenched and unclear despite Jossi's apparent' uber-clarity. Now we still have Ruminton and Momento warning everyone to observe BLP when editing here, as if they really know what that means. Frankly I think nobody really knows what these policies allow or disallow. Everyone (including neutral people with much experience) seems to have a different interpretation. Vassayana seemed to think that even Primary Sources were OK if used sensitively. I pointed out that the DLM magazines are available in many public libraries (ready public availability seemed to be a criteria). The devil is in the detail. What and whos 'sensitively is needed when using sources'? Jossi, Ruminton and Momento always shout 'IT IS PERFECTLY CLEAR' but I don't see it. They seem to exploit the vagueness to twist things to suit their own POV which, given their position as having strong views on the matter, is hardly surprising. One thing that has never been established is what sources can be used. And if there is accord on that then these guys have the books. Do you or Will have them too? How can you tell if stuff is cherry-picked if you don't have the books? Even when sources are approved they then argue that the people are expressing a minority view or it's not suitable for a BLP. It's just a no win situation. Now Collier is not ok to use... once it was. Who decides eventually? PatW ( talk) 09:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC) PatW ( talk) 09:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
This thread seems to have wondered far from its starting point. If I may make an observation about the suject and the DLM movement, there appears to have been a disconnect between what the subject said about himself and what his adherents, even the most senior followers, said about him. To boil it down, we have many quotes of him saying "I'm not god", and many quotes of his followers saying something like "he's god". This disconnect was so well known that he was asked about it during a press conference in 1973. As for the here and now, I perceive that some editors want to find proof that the subject called himself "god", while others want to disprove any such findings. My suggestion is to "cover the controversy". We should cover both what the subject said about himself and what his official followers said about him. Some of the latter may belong more in "DLM" or "Teachings", but it should be covered here too at least briefly. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
There is some truth in what Jayen says about there being room for multiple incarnations generally in Hindu sects. But pease don't think you can teach me about this Jayen- I and many others posting here are educated in these matters. The situation you describe is sort of true but it was not always accepted so happily and in Rawat's case he was very adamant about his unique status. You do not consider mentioning the phenomenon of 'Succession Disputes' which characterise Hindu sects. All scholars of Hinduism talk about this. Read Jurgensmeyer if in doubt. There was often violent disagreement between sects, in fact Rawats fathers sect attracted considerable extremely violent opposition from opposing groups- namely the Arya Samaj. This is well documented. Also when Prem Rawat's mother and brother tried to take control of DLM in India there was also violence and a court case with Rawat over property rights - which Rawat effectively lost; the judge reprimanding both parties for being manifestly 'ungodly' in their disagreement. Rawats brother now claims to be the true successor of the Guru Mantle as does Prem Rawat but there is no agreement that they are both authentic. (although they essentially teach the same meditation and Bhakti (devotional path).
It's a historical fact that Rawat allowed himself to be promoted as being more than just another 'guru'. The back cover of the book "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?" (published by Bantam, Nov. 1973) asks this further question: "Why do more than six million people around the world claim he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet? ..." Rawat was educated at a Catholic school and Christian belief informed much of his teachings in the 1970s - especially at the Millennium event in Houston, '73. Look at this picture to see what I mean.
I have no intention of wandering off the point here at all. I agree with Will that what Rawat said and what his official followers said is important and should be covered. I also agree that some editors want to disprove the subject called himself "God" in as much as they introduce only the 'sheepish denials' which Collier reported amongst others. I also agree that others (rightly) want to prove that he did mean he was uniquely divine. I don't believe Jayen's opinions help clarify the matter however well-intentioned. Nor does a published Doctor of Indian religion and philosophy at London University who spent 10 years in India studying Hinduism other sects. I read him this entire thread. He said that, with all due respect, what Jayen said is untrue with regard to Rawat's tradition and his Advait Mat roots and that the Sufi (Qutb) comparison is spurious.
Agra's incarnational theory posits that the divine current rises and ebbs . When it is present, it exists only in one person, the Satguru of that generation; when it is not, the current has temporarily withdrawn. According to the Beas teachings only a few param sants have appeared in world history-Kabir and Swami Shiv Dayal, for example . But there are many gurmukhs. At least one must be present in the world at all times, and there may be several: "There may and there may be several: "There may be many Masters living in different parts of the world.' (page 70 - 'Radhasoami Reality' by M.Jurgensmeyer)
I would suggest that DuPertuis's paper covers the area quite well and should be drawn on extensively if we want to present this in more detail, for example:
Charisma in Sant Mat / Radhasoami / DLM tradition can best be understood in terms of darshan for which, according to Bharati, "absolutely no parallel" can be found "in any religious act in the West . . . " (1970:161, cited in Eck, 1981:5). Darshan means "sight" - of the deity or the guru who embodies him/her, usually for the purpose of imbibing his/her divine powers or grace (Babb, 1981; Eck:1981). It implies sight on a rich multiplicity of symbolic and spiritual levels which demonstrate a complex mix of doctrinal and mythic, perceptual and visionary, interactional and experiential dimensions in the relationship between a charismatic spiritual leader and his or her followers.
Darshan is intimately related to what Lane describes as "three cardinal precepts" of Sant Mat tradition:
1) Satguru, both as the Absolute Lord (nirguna) and the living human master (saguna):
2) Shabd (sound or melody), which encompasses both that which is spoken or written and inner or spiritual sound which is beyond expression, the primal current of the Supreme Lord; and
3) Satsang, the congregation of earnest devotees of the truth (l981:12).
Satguru is the one who is seen in darshan; shabd provides the spiritual method for perceiving darshan; and in satsang devotees exchange "darshan stories." (10) With minor modifications these ideas have also guided Radhasoami and DLM.
Theologically, Satguru exemplifies the Hindu concept of the Absolute as both with and without form. As living human master Satguru does not merely represent the Absolute Lord, but Satguru is that Lord's form, or embodiment, or incarnation: (11) simultaneously, even as he sits before the devotees in the form of a living master, Satguru is also "non-dual, un-namable, and formless" (Lane, 1981:12). To Kabir, this Lord's "form is love" and "all light" [Tagore, 1977:1 13,75). Radhasoami means "Absolute Lord," whose form " . . . is without limits and beyond description. To what could I compare it? It is beyond all measure." (Singh, 1976:2:35-6, cited in Babb, 1981:390). Guru Maharaj Ji sometimes described this "Lord" or "God" as impersonal energy, at other times as the creator.
Devotees do not distinguish conceptually between formless and human manifestations of Satguru, for the goal is to perceive darshan of both at once. One must learn to see the formless Satguru via the master's physical form just as - in a favorite example used by Guru Maharaj Ji - Krishna on the battlefield suddenly revealed to his disciple Arjuna his transcendent, divine Form, speaking from innumerable mouths, seeing with myriad eyes, of many marvellous aspects . . ., annointed with perfumes of heavenly fragrance, full of revelations, resplendent, boundless, of ubiquitous regard (Prabhavanda and Isherwood, 1951:92).
Thus, the devotee can "now see his guru as he truly is; that is, as the Supreme Being." (Babb, 1981:390).
The quest for darshan can begin with either of two methods. If one starts by seeking darshan of the formless Satguru, one meditates, while darshan of the human Satguru involves a ritual encounter.
Jayen 466 15:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I wasn't aware of this paper. Thanks. This is much more the philosophy that was taught in the seventies although 'Shabd' was a Radhasoami term that was not used at all. Maharaji taught four meditation techniques which up until the eighties were referred to as Light, Music, Holy Name (sometimes called The Word) and Nectar. The latter was essentially the Kechari Mudra technique of Yoga. Although Advait Mat was Rawat's actual sect, the Radhasoamis clearly had very similar philosophies. As a matter of fact, the Radhasoami motto was 'Work is Worship' which was also the DLM motto. It was engraved above the door of the 'Palace of Peace' (a converted cinema in East Dulwich) in 1974. David Lane (mentioned above) wrote to me that he was told in India that Shri Hans had been initiated into Radhasoami by Sawan Singh prior to going his own way and meeting Adviat Mat guru Swarupanand. Hansji was clearly a follower of Sarupanand of Advait Mat. Hansji is also reported to have received initiation from Sawan Singh of Radhasoami Beas, as reported by Kirpal's personal secretary at Sawan Ashram, Gyanji (who I personally interviewed in July of 1978 on this issue). [5] [6] It would seem probable that Shri Hans must have formed a separate group after, or even perhaps during, the lifetime of Sarupanand (who died in 1936) with himself as the 'Satguru'. so when he met Swami Swarupanand, the saint who became his Spiritual Teacher, he devoted himself totally and dived into the infinite ocean of spiritual wisdom. His Guru declared, "I am in Hans' heart, and he is in mine", and he became the spiritual successor to Swami Swarupanand. In the early days of his mission, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj disseminated Spiritual Knowledge in Sind and Lahore. From 1930 he started teaching in Delhi....(Excerpt from 'Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj', Published by Divine Light Mission in 1970, B-19/3, Shakti Nagar, Delhi 7, India - Page 3) > [7] PatW ( talk)
Above is a list of the main Prem-Rawat related articles with their redirects and dismabiguation pages, the navigation aids, and the deletion discussions.
I've listed these to help us decide on a plan for organizing the material in a logical fashion. There are three active discussions at Talk:Divine Light Mission#Disambiguation and Proposal for Merger, Talk:Teachings of Prem Rawat#Merging?, and #Mergefrom Criticism of Prem Rawat on this page, and an agreed-upon proposal at Talk:Divine United Organization#Notability that has already been carried out. I've also added a merge tag on the TPRF article.
The proposals on the table are:
If these merges were all carried out we'd have "Prem Rawat", which would include criticism of him, information on his teachings, and on his foundation. We'd have two articles on the DLM, one focussed on the organization in India ("Indian DLM ") and the other focused on the organization in the rest of the world ("Western DLM"). Those articles would contain some of the teachings of Prem Rawat and his predecessors.
If none of these mergers are conducted we still need to decide which information about teachings goes in which article - there are potentially four articles that could carry various aspects: "Prem Rawat", "Teachings of Prem Rawat", "Divine Light Mission", and "Elan Vital (organization)". Currently, all four include some discussion of teachings, beliefs or practices, and there is a degree of duplication between them.
Rather than fighting over these matters individually, let's try to find a consensus on how to move forward with the organization of the articles in this topic. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Regarding my merge/split proposal for the Teachings of Prem Rawat into Divine Light Mission and Prem Rawat, I think that there are too little sources that make a clear distinction between the teachings by Prem Rawat versus the beliefs and practices of Elan Vital/ Divine Light Mission to warrant an article. If Jossi disagrees then I hope to hear from him sources that do otherwise. The descriptions of the Techniques of Knowledge sourced to Kranenborg and Melton in their articles about the DLM should be merged into Divine Light Mission while the re-naming by Rawat should either go into Elan Vital or Prem Rawat. Andries ( talk) 09:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I have a bit of a problem with the Teachings of Prem Rawat article. Since we are mainly now referring to "The Keys", and the Knowledge passed on through them is secret, how can we write any meaningful article about this? Either we shine some light on these teachings, or we mention them in passing inside the Prem Rawat article. I don't see why it really has an article of it's own at all. I guess that boils down to an agree to merge, with a lot of paring down. -- Maelefique (talk) 23:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Likewise, I have a problem with The Prem Rawat Foundation article as well. Perhaps if the article was more than a puff piece it would be better. From reading the article, it seems we might be able to include it, on its own, but as it stands now, there's very little in the way of sourcing, and what the heck is this doing here:
discussed on its website include the development of a facility in northern India where hundreds of free meals will be provided
I plan to fly to the moon someday, so what? Anyways, *if* that article can be cleaned up (basically, "done properly") I would say leave it as a stand-alone article. In its present form, unfortunately, I'd have to say scrap it, or add the few useful elements as a merge. I'd prefer it was sourced and fixed though. -- Maelefique (talk) 00:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) For all the talk page volume and edits currently being generated – this is the single (I would say only) most useful area in which to make progress. The fundamental failings of the Rawat articles (and they are dreadful) is STRUCTURAL. Until there is a resolution of the structural problem none of the enduring arguments will be settled.
Proposals as summarised
Criticism of Prem Rawat >>merge>> Prem Rawat. A substantial amount of what may classed as ‘criticism’ appears in sources that should properly be used in Prem Rawat, splitting the references into ‘neutral’ and ‘critical’ is a POV fork. Merger is essential.
The Prem Rawat Foundation >>merge>> Prem Rawat TPRF may or may not demand a WP article, however the relationship between Rawat and TPRF is too distant to make merger appropriate. Acknowledgement of the TPRF in Prem Rawat is clearly warranted but a detailed treatment of TPRF in the Rawat article would not be warranted, unless it were shown that Rawat was responsible for a large endowment that made TPRF possible or he plays a constructive role in the direction of the organisation. As it is TPRF was created and is run and funded by people other than Prem Rawat and a WP article should show that. Merger is therefore not warranted, although TPRF should perhaps be considered for deletion as not notable/significant.
Teachings of Prem Rawat <<split>> and >>merge part>> Divine Light Mission >>merge part>> Prem Rawat This presentation does not recognise the existing (absurd) complexity, the process in fact needs to be: Teachings of Prem Rawat <<split>> and >>merge part>> Divine Light Mission >>merge part>> Elan Vital >>merge part>> Prem Rawat In practice very little may transfer to Divine Light Mission which should properly be referenced to the Teachings of Hans Rawat Hans Ji Maharaj. To the extent that Prem Rawat expounded the teachings of Hans Ji Maharaj, Prem Rawat’s teaching should be referenced to Rawat Hans Ji Maharaj. In fact there are few (none ?) sources that actually claim that Rawat ‘taught’ what his father taught, other than the four techniques of meditation. A further complication is that academic description of the techniques is given in relation to Prem Rawat not Hans Rawat. In this one respect Jossi’s criticism of Andries’ proposal being ‘arbitrary’ in its distribution of merged material is probably correct and description of the techniques should attach to Prem Rawat and not his father, and clumsily Hans Ji Maharaj would need to refer to Prem Rawat for a description of the meditation.
Divine Light Mission <<split>> India and Western. Caution needs to be taken over the term Western in this context because there are implications of cultural as well a geographic meaning; this is doubly relevant as westernisation of both teaching and organisational style are reported by a number of source. The significance of this is that geographic change/differentiation was not contemporary with the reported cultural differentiation. (which may perhaps be the source of Jossi’s objections). There has already arisen a confusion over the Indian origin of DUO.
The process needs to be clearly defined in terms of:
1. Divine Light Mission (the organisation formed to further Hans Rawat’s teaching, solely located in India, and which was referenced to two unambiguous works of principle – the Hans Yog Prakash and the Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj - and chronologically co-existing with organisations founded by followers of Prem Rawat for a period of less than three years.
2. Organisations founded/created by followers of Prem Rawat: a number being called Divine Light Mission and later being renamed Elan Vital; one in the UK being called Divine Light Mission which was closed down, after a new organisation called Elan Vital was created, one called DUO created as an Association in India, which was later renamed Raj Vidya Kender. None of these organisations can be shown in anyway to have been predicated upon the either the Hans Yog Prakash or the Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj – and none of the sources refer to these works.
Jossi’s objections.
As I understand it Jossi is saying that if a source says Elan Vital – then that can only be used in a WP article called “Elan Vital”, and if a source says Divine Light Mission –then that can only be used in a WP article called Divine Light Mission. Jossi also raises the issue of DLM being described as a ‘movement’ and as being ‘defunct’, while he states that Elan Vital is not a ‘movement’. Logically this leads to:
1. Divine Light Mission = a movement
2. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by unrelated organisations
3. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by some related organisations
4. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by some related organisations which changed their names to Elan Vital
5. Elan Vital = the name adopted by some related organisations
6. 2. and 3. above were for a time part of 1.
7. Points 4. and 3. above are (mostly) the same entities which = 5. which when combined as 4, 3, and 2. comprised a movement (1.) but as 5. do not form a movement.
8. The solution to the equation of Point 7. is that the separation of 3. from 2. saw the end of the movement at point 1. – This separation did indeed happen, in 1974, unfortunately the sources that Jossi refers to keep talking about a movement for years after 1974.
If the WP reader is ever to have a chance of understanding what is written about Rawat, then at some point all the above has to be disambiguated. Jossi’s position of source defined apportionment to arbitrarily named articles makes disambiguation impossible, with no separation of meaning between ‘movement’ or ‘organisation’ within one article, but a separation of meaning between articles, and no logical chronological consistency either within the articles or between them.
There is clearly an understanding amongst some editors that things have to change – my belief is that the way forward is on the basis of successive disambiguation progressed on a chronological basis starting with Hans Rawat’s DLM. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 19:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
1. Divine Light Mission = a movement
2. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by unrelated organisations
3. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by some related organisations
4. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by some related organisations which changed their names to Elan Vital
5. Elan Vital = the name adopted by some related organisations
6. 2. and 3. above were for a time part of 1.
7. Points 4. and 3. above are (mostly) the same entities which = 5. which when combined as 4, 3, and 2. comprised a movement (1.) but as 5. do not form a movement.
8. The solution to the equation of Point 7. is that the separation of 3. from 2. saw the end of the movement at point 1. – This separation did indeed happen, in 1974, unfortunately the sources that Jossi refers to keep talking about a movement for years after 1974. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 11:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Jayen you seem to be sympathetic towards the POV that Jossi and TPRF and EV and Rawat have tried to assert here. Please be clear, there is a subtle way of wording things to make it look as if Rawat had no part in the forming or running of these organisations. Jossi and Momento have worked towards giving this impression. These movements did not 'form around Rawat' without his control except of course DLM which he was born into and tried more and more to wrest back from being the 'Youth Movement' that he felt was out of his control. Followers are keen to distance Rawat from responsibility from all the organisations that promote him. Have you noticed that? There is almost the pretence that they are just 'fan clubs'. The disconnect is because in fact they are bending over backwards to do his wishes. Rawat has much input on these things. Rawat has made it quite clear even recently, that he considers his past very dangerous to talk openly about. For example Rawat himself is largely responsible for the controversial idea that the Mahatmas brought all the troublesome Hindu concepts to the West and he has said he personally should not have to defend himself from any backlash. Here are some quotes from his recent 'training sessions' that illustrate his POV:
Why does Rawat say it is 'pathetic' to have to defend himself? Or that followers should feel guilty if they talk about it? I think that this reflects a fear that the world is against him and he has to be extremely guarded about his past. Obviously Rawat felt badly received by the seventies press and that is probably why he became so publicity shy. Rawat, like any politician, would prefer to write his own history. Hence a spate of vanity publications and hence Jossi's presence here. Does anyone here think for one moment that it is merely a coincidence that Jossi was Rawat's personal webmaster before coming here? If you think that DLM, Elan Vital and now TPRF are such separate, distinctive movements then consider this: Rawat has simply changed his presentation and goals over time and emphasises this by creating different organisations. Essentially they are run by the same people (his same followers) and he is ultimately in control. In my opinion Maelefique is quite right that it is wrong to keep separating all these things which should all be under one heading - Prem Rawat. These are his organisations. People like Jayen want the article not to be insulting towards the subject (movement) and seem prepared to go along to some extent with Jossi's POV to preserve a respectful attitude. In my opinion that is not an appropriate outcome (although of course we should not be disrespectful). Others want a broader, less biased treatment which by it's nature (not from any malevolent intent) could conceivably be a little offensive to Rawat and his followers. Rawat is caught between his desire to spread his religion to the world and the desire to be an extremely private, even secretive movement. This is surely the dilemma we see played out here. In my view, if Rawat wants a presence here then he has to accept that accuracy may contradict some of his propaganda. This is not a pro or anti site. Like any person in the public eye he may need to accept that aspects of his life have been controversial. That's life. It is not our job to paint followers critique-free picture or kao tow to the way TPRF, DLM, EV want to pretentiously distinguish themselves. We should present these organisations chronologically under Prem Rawat and make it clear that they have evolved to become more controlled by Prem Rawat as time passed. We might describe (using legitimate sources) how these organisations have different functions and appearances but how they are essentially organisations to promote Prem Rawat's message. I don't know whether there should be separate articles as well. PatW ( talk) 09:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The Survival of the Coolest appears to concern another "Maharaj Ji" (perhaps the guru of Ram Dass), not Prem Rawat or his father. The "Ji" in that book wears a Sikh-style turban and is never described as a child or young person even though the action is set in the late 1960s. Neither that book nor Melton mention anything about Glastonbury, Paris, Heidelberg, or school holidays. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Maharaj Ji decided to take his message of peace outside India in 1970. He made his first appearance in the West in 1971 at a pop music festival in Glastonbury, England. Biography: Maharaj Ji, Britannica Book of the Year (1974), p.154.
Thanks, that sources at least some of it. Here's another similar problem:
This is far more detail than Melton gives. I presume there's another source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Does this reporter have a name? Did he publish his report in any publication? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
That goes way beyond what the unknown reporter writing in the unknown newspaper wrote. The quote from the interview doesn't even mention the mother. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikiquote is obviously unacceptable as a source (the entry there is unsourced). Besides that, the text is making conclusions which should be cited to a secondary source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Gosh, and I thought the hard-headed secularists here didn't believe in divine power. :D Rumiton ( talk) 11:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Can one of the Dutch speakers explain this word? Is it even Dutch? "Routinised charisma" makes no sense in English. Rumiton ( talk) 12:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I intend to delete the sentence containing this expression as misleading. "Routinised charisma" is a specific term from divinity studies unknown to most English speakers. It is poorly rendered as "inherited" charisma, and as it actually involves the cultural acceptance of a previous minority sect it has no relevance to Prem Rawat. It is, at best, an exceptional claim. Rumiton ( talk) 13:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Francis, the ref (2) I deleted made no mention of the name Sant Ji Maharaji. It added nothing of value to the lead. Rumiton ( talk) 14:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
These edits [19] have multiple problems, which I will address later on. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not have time for a thorough review of all these edits, but these are the more critical:
Given that we are engaged in ann orderly debate about these articles with the assistance of the MedCab, which all editors have been informed of its proceedings, it would be wise to engage there rather than make changes to the lead without discussion and introduce additional disputes. We have our hands full already.
I would encourage all participants, to cool off and accept the fact that we need to reach consensus on this and related articles. Fighting for our preferred versions of the article will not produce the results we need. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Re. 1: "I gather it had some consensus behind it", no: it was edit-warred leading up to the recent ArbCom case: [20]. I'm restoring the version that had more consensus, and was more or less stable for several months before the final edit war leading up to the ArbCom case.
Please take it from there. I prefer the version I had made yesterday. The source eliminated was only proof for the organisations' take on the issue, not Rawat's. "uses an opinion of one source asserting it as it was a fact" is unclear. "The previous version was more accurate and NPOV", definitely not, and it is an OR version: combining "whose emphasis is on an individual, subjective experience rather than on a body of dogma" and "has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content [...]" is bringing two unrelated issues together as if they weren't. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I can see that editors have rushed in and got Momento blocked. Round trips to WP:AE, will now become the currency of this page? I was under the understanding that we were conducting an orderly debate with the help of the Mediation Cabal, but it seems that certain editors rather than participate in the mediation debates, have chosen to force their hand via WP:AE. This does not bode well, IMO. 02:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
"It hasn't taken Momento long to get back into his old unwelcome tricks ie. removing material which has been discussed many times. When is someone going to stop this absurd POV pushing? And how? Will, you should know perfectly well what this vandal's standard is by now. Anything that is critical about his guru gets removed at the earliest possible convenience. What a complete farce. Also the guy has been criticised until the cows come home by almost everyone who comes here (visa vi the Arbcom evidence) and yet he carries on without a hint of embarassment. What does that tell me? He is probably working for Prem Rawat and is just following orders. Anyone who was an unbiased editor would have been long ago piqued by social conscience into being more reasonable. Also Momento is clearly laughing at you and Francis when you ask him your polite little questions. Do you really think he's going to give you a sensible answer? No he is plainly delighted at your impotence to stop him doing exactly what his bosses want."
I don't believe it is necessary to have about 30% of the material in this section. It is all quoted, or paraphrased, from the Teachings of article, which is referenced right at the beginning of this section. If someone wants to find out about more, it is one click away. This duplication of material seems to be spreading throughout the PR articles which only serves to make them appear longer than they should be. This section should summarize his teachings, which can be done quite easily by fluffing out something like "Originally drawn from Indian traditions, PR's teachings have evolved into series of meditation techniques that seek to help the practitioner achieve an inner peace by turning one's senses inward instead of outward. These methods are not indicative of any particular religion or lifestyle. The are subjective to each individual, and expected to be practiced and comprehended privately.". Suggestions, thoughts, flames, etc invited and expected. -- Maelefique (talk) 15:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
FYI: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#Momento_edit-warring_over_criticism_section_at_Prem_Rawat. Interested editors may want to add their views. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
This is very far from what the Dutch source says. I will change it tomorrow. God, this article is a freaking pigsty. Rumiton ( talk) 13:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
translated as:Tegelijkertijd betekent dit echter [dat] charismatisch leiderschap als zodanig tot op zekere hoogte ensceneerbaar is. Maharaj Ji is daar een voorbeeld van. In zekere zin gaat het hier om geroutiniseerd charisma (erfopvolging), maar voor de volgelingen in Amerika en Europa geldt dat toch nauwelijks: zij waren bereid in juist hem te geloven en er was rond Maharaj Ji een hele organisatie die dat geloof voedde en versterkte.
...without excluding pre-emptively that improvements to the summary wouldn't be possible. Please see also discussion at Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat#Improving article, where various alternatives were considered. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)At the same time, this means however that charismatic leadership, as such, can be staged to a certain degree. Maharaj Ji is an example of this. Certainly, Maharaj Ji's leadership can be seen as routinized charisma (hereditary succession), but for the followers in America and Europe this is hardly significant: they were prepared to have faith specifically in him and Maharaj Ji was embedded in a whole organisation that fed and reinforced that faith.
See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#Jossi launching subtle personal attacks -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 19:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It only took me a couple of mintues to track this down. Jossi provided the source, and Francis added it. Jossi posted:
Then Francis summarized it as:
That certainly isn't a misquote or bad summary. The mistake, to the extent that there was one, when Francis used Jossi's proffered source without checking the information himself. It appears that the actual citation is to Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion, and the text is on page 21. [30] So the material is proprely summarized/quoted and should not have been deleted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
What were some of the trappings of religious practice in this emerging movement? Potential initiates were usually introduced to the Divine Light Mission at a session of religious discourse called a satsang, where experienced members presented the philosophy of the sect to the assembled group. The satsang could be delivered to active members or to those with only a casual interest. It was something of a polemic interspersed with parables, and because members were bright and sophisticated, these discourses tended to be engaging, making use of both Hindu mythology and Western philosophy.
Why was this material moved to the "Teachings" article? [32]
The text addresses Rawat as a leader, and doesn't refer to his teachings. ·:· Will Beback ·:·
Where are we currently with regard to the idea of merging Criticism of Prem Rawat into this article? That article (i.e. the Criticism article) had a "mergeto" tag until a few days ago, for merging it into this article (i.e. the Prem Rawat article). Not so long ago someone also replaced the mergefrom tag in Prem Rawat#Reception by a {{ main}} tag in the "Criticism" subsection (now deleted).
Well, one of the two, either the idea is still to merge, then it would be best to indicate that in both articles with an appropriate "merge" tag; either we're no longer sporting that idea, and then I suppose the only practical solution would be to follow summary style for a criticism section in this article, while keeping a separate criticism article.
The situation as created by Momento (by removing an appropriate link to the Criticism article, whether in a "merge" type of tag or in a "main" type of tag) is of course untenable. Suggestions? I'd go for the "main" tag again under the current circumstances, but that sort of implies to have a "Criticism" section title in the Prem Rawat article. Or is there currently still a broad support for the merge option? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
This is a real mess. First the article is restored to pre-Arbcom state, and then that is partially undone. Now there are discussions about completing the merge, when we have not been able to stabilize the article. What do you think would be the result? Would it be stable or would it start another set of roundtrips to WP:AE? What happened to the mediation? Are we serious about it or it is just a smoke and mirrors exercise? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Why does this keep getting deleted in favour of a negatively slanted version? A host of sources, from Hunt to Hummel, tell us this. Rumiton ( talk) 13:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
<<<My comments have been, for some time, above in #Problematic edits. Another "fragmentation of discussion" example, not caused by me. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I intend to get rid of this breath-takingly irrelevant nonsense. Any objections? Rumiton ( talk) 13:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In the teachings section it says: Rawat speaks spontaneously, drawing upon real life experiences, anecdotes and his own experience, rather than scriptural interpretation, uncluttered by tradition in the vein of a contemporary Kabir or Nanak.[89][90] and this is referenced from Geaves and/or Melton. Such a particular and ceertainly flattering comparison seems to me to be likely made by Ron Geaves, himself a well-known and self-proclaimed devotee of Prem Rawat. I may be wrong but my guess is that Melton would not have said this. Can someone a) please clarify where this sentence derives from? b) Explain what the current thinking is about using Geaves here as a reliable source given his status as a significant follower? PatW ( talk) 18:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
(UTC)
Is there any particular reason why nobody is addressing my question above (which I have discussed many times here with no real consensus ever being reached) - what is the current thinking on the use of Geaves as a source? Same goes for Collier and Cagan. For two years now I have restricted my contributions pretty much to the Talk pages for the stated reason that it was plainly important to establish ground rules as to what material is can be used and why. For years I've had Jossi preaching at me as if he knows the answer and I don't - but that's all up in the air now. Now I bring it up again nobody's apparently interested. Will? Francis? Jossi? Ruminton? Are you there? PatW ( talk) 22:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I just discovered that there is specific discussion about this on the DLM page. Is there a good reason that I was not asked to participate in this discussion along with other involved parties? PatW ( talk) 06:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Deleting sourced material with an edit summary of "tweaked" is unacceptable. If you see something in the article you would like to change please discuss it on the talk page first, this is something I would have expected from Momento, not you. I am reverting your edits until there is a reason for them, not because I do not agree with them. There is no reason to act this way. -- Maelefique (talk) 21:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In 1973 the 50-member public relations team of the Divine Light Mission summarized Rawat's image as a "fat 15-year-old with pie in his face ... and a Rolls-Royce ... who was arrested for jewel smuggling. Are you sure this is what the PR team said? I really do not know anymore what are you trying to do here, Will. Seriously. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
According to an AP wire published in The Stars and Stripes newspaper in 1973, the 50-member public relations team of the Divine Light Mission who met to talk about the guru's image, concluded that he was seen as a "fat 15-year-old with pie in his face ... and a Rolls-Royce ... who was arrested for jewel smuggling", and pointed at the necessity to establish his credibility beyond his age and body shape.
<<<(A small request: please do not use "per Jossi's request" in edit summaries. Stating as per discussion in talk, is prefereable and more accurate. Thanks in advance.) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
<outdent> How could it possibly be more accurate to attribute a text change to some non-specific contributor on a talk page, rather than to identify who suggested it? It may be preferable, it certainly isn't more accurate. It *might* be more preferable and accurate to say "per jossi's request, see discussion on talk page" or something like that. Is that what you meant? -- Maelefique (talk) 23:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
... That editors slow-down a bit with edits so that there is sometime given for these to be discussed? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
<<< I will still have to raise a concern here. We have at least 15 items in the mediation page that needs our attention, and instead of bridging these disputes there, a new set of disputes is being introduced here. There are even assertions made that the DLM areticle has improved, which in light of the many disputes there, I would say that it is either wishful thinking, or an attempt to frame that article as resolved. It is not. Hereby I object to the way this is progressing. I will port a concern in the MedCab page to in this regard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
<< Jossi, whoa. That sounded like you were threatening them. Okay, Everyone calm down. While I can't impose edits, or actions, I'd advise the editors to work towards a consensus here before making edits. Remember that all articles are on article probation. As for protection during disputes, I've only requested that be done when I felt necessary, at this time, it's probably unnecessary. And, if it was protected, I'd ask that Jossi not edit the page, even though they can, as a sysop. I'm still watching. Continue discussion. And erm, perhaps you should use bullets and outdents a little more? Creates a page stretch. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 05:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, I feel MedCab is a good thing, and I don't think it's beyond us, or, me, to resolve this dispute, or at least improve the situation. I haven't been following the discussion on the talk pages extensively, I can do that now. Could you bring me up to speed? And I have no doubt as an admin you would not edit a protected page, it was just something to mention. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 06:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Mediation is about consensus. With respect Jossi, perhaps I should do the advising here? :) Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 06:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I have still not responded regarding the invitation to participate in the Mediation, posted about a week ago now on my talk page. First: thanks for the invitation. Second: sorry for taking so long to think about it. I have read quite some parts of the MedCab related texts now: not so many of them were talk where I felt directly involved. I think talk on this page to find consensus on the content of the Prem Rawat article quite productive lately. I'm less interested in the DLM article currently, or rather, one can't do it all. Once the Prem Rawat article has reached near-perfection, I'll see what I do with my time then. Anyway, if some of the topics of the MedCab proceedings catch my attention I might contribute, I hope there's no impediment there (if there is: I'm happy with whatever consensus the MedCab results in). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
We have now again the highly unbalanced situation, that will inevitably cause controversy: A relativly extensive “Criticism” section in the article, and nothing about approval. Isn’t it jinxed? What do you “uninvolved” editors intend to do about it? How could this happen? Do you think it’s alright?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 19:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Numbers don’t balance appraisal. If you give room to negative assessment, you must also give room to positive assessment, possibly in a proportional way (that would make the article rather lengthy) or somehow giving an account of the real proportions. Otherwise the article is negatively biased. Maybe give it a thought or two when you're finished with dealing with that ulcer.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 20:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The heading says “Reception”, which should incorporate numbers and content in a neutral manner. Then there is only explicitly negative (“brainwashing” and “mind control”) or superficial (charisma being an effect of staging) appraisal as regards content. Hard to understand what made and makes such numbers of people get involved with Rawat, against the admittedly negative grain of mass media. “Following” does not balance “Criticism”, but covers the numerical development of the movement over time, which is also informative. “Criticism” is not balanced at all, but scrapes the bottom of invidious apostasy and Dutch theology. Isn’t this somehow “intellectually unremarkable”?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 21:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I am not against mentioning the criticism. But being explicit exclusively on critical issues is not correct in this case. Everybody has heard about Mother Theresa or the Pope from many sources, but Prem Rawat is largely unknown, and the WP-article may for many readers be the first instance of encountering the subject, so there is a special responsibility for delivering a carefully undistorted account. I did not request “equal amounts of positive and negative contents”, as that would display a false balance anyway. I asked for a more neutral point of view as a background for the Reception section, as I observe an obvious deficiency there. And I do not think I am misunderstanding the idea of balance, as it appears rather simple. And you have not adressed my concern.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 22:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
From patronizing to cynical.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 22:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Will, please. This is not helpful whatsoever. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
And now to hysterical. What's eating you guys? Aren't you experienced editors? Is what I say so far from common sense and so hard to understand? You make me feel I'm wasting time with you. But maybe I'm just tired, think I'll go to bed. Good night!-- Rainer P. ( talk) 22:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Rainer P, is making a very solid argument above, which is being dismissed with flippant comments and not to the merits of the argument. I do not think that he deserves that kind of treatment, so I look forward to hearing arguments and response to his comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
Good morning! So you can not understand what I say? How come I’m not surprised? Must be because English is only one foreign language to me, that’s why I’m reluctant to edit the article. But I am quite familiar with human behavior, and I can tell the difference between serious collaboration and arrogance. I like your fancy signature. But I think, the level of understanding you have to date displayed in enhancing the quality of the article does not give you the right of making me an object of your fun. Sorry, I won’t dance. And not being unemployed, I have to now to look after some responsibilities. Take care! P.S. "Hysterical" means: acted, not authentic.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 06:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
That looks better. But one wonders, if the Stephen A. Kent-quote can be called a scholarly assessment – commenting on hearing one (?) address, seemingly unprepared (otherwise no disappointment nor surprise). Maybe he can be called a scholar in some of his works, but the term ‘assessment’ is stretched a little here, as it implies to my understanding a certain level of scientific effort, at least proper description. And still: Even the Teachings-section says little about the appeal, resp. the effect of the Knowledge, when practiced right. But that's what constitutes the main motive – not Rawat's charisma or other personal attributes – for the whole movement. Without information on this, the whole scene stays more or less incomprehensible, or just strange. So I suggest to give a little more information about this in the teaching section, there are abundant sources. That could perhaps counterweigh some of the negative slant of the Reception chapter. Opinions?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 12:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The material from Schnabel is written in an editorial voice, when it is actually Schnabel's opinion. The voice needs to be changed and the opinion attributed. It may need trimming as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Current edit:
Schnabel observed, referring to research by Van der Lans, that among his Western students, Rawat appeared to stimulate an uncritical attitude, giving them an opportunity to project their fantasies of divinity onto his person. The divine nature of the guru is a standard element of Eastern religion, but removed from its cultural context, and confounded with the Western understanding of God as a father, what is lost is the difference between the guru's person and that which the guru symbolizes. The result is limitless personality worship. Schnabel observed that this kind of understanding of the master-disciple relationship, alien to the original Eastern guru-disciple context, often ends in disillusionment for the disciple, who finds that the teacher in the end fails to live up to his or her expectations. [4]
Proposed edit:
Schnabel, referring to research by Van der Lans, that among his Western students, Rawat appeared to stimulate an uncritical attitude, giving them an opportunity to project their fantasies of divinity onto his person. Lans describes the divine nature of the guru is a standard element of Eastern religion, but removed from its cultural context, and confounded with the Western understanding of God as a father, what is lost is the difference between the guru's person and that which the guru symbolizes, resulting, in Lans' view, in a limitless personality worship. Schnabel observed that this kind of understanding of the master-disciple relationship, alien to the original Eastern guru-disciple context, often ends in disillusionment for the disciple, who finds that the teacher in the end fails to live up to his or her expectations. [4]
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Another proposal, fully attributed:
Schnabel, referring to research by Van der Lans, asserts that among his Western students, Rawat appeared to stimulate an uncritical attitude giving them an opportunity to project their fantasies of divinity onto his person. According to Schnabel, the divine nature of the guru is a standard element of Eastern religion, but when removed from its cultural context—and confounded with the Western understanding of God as a father—what is lost is the difference between the guru's person and that which the guru symbolizes, resulting in limitless personality worship. Schnabel opines that this kind of understanding of the master-disciple relationship, alien to the original Eastern guru-disciple context, often ends in disillusionment for the disciple, who finds that the teacher in the end fails to live up to his or her expectations. [4]
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=214592307&oldid=214585807 -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
{{
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has extra text (
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(p. 99:) [...] persoonlijke kwaliteiten alleen [zijn] onvoldoende [...] voor de erkenning van het charismatisch leiderschap. [...] de verwende materialistische en intellectueel weinig opmerkelijke Maharaj Ji. (p. 101-102:) Tegelijkertijd betekent dit echter [dat] charismatisch leiderschap als zodanig tot op zekere hoogte ensceneerbaar is. Maharaj Ji is daar een voorbeeld van. In zekere zin gaat het hier om geroutiniseerd charisma (erfopvolging), maar voor de volgelingen in Amerika en Europa geldt dat toch nauwelijks: zij waren bereid in juist hem te geloven en er was rond Maharaj Ji een hele organisatie die dat geloof voedde en versterkte. |
[...] personal qualities alone are insufficient for the recognition of the charismatic leadership. [...] the pampered materialistic and intellectually quite unremarkable Maharaj Ji. At the same time, this means however that charismatic leadership, as such, can be staged to a certain degree. Maharaj Ji is an example of this. Certainly, Maharaj Ji's leadership can be seen as routinized charisma (hereditary succession), but for the followers in America and Europe this is hardly significant: they were prepared to have faith specifically in him and Maharaj Ji was embedded in a whole organisation that fed and reinforced that faith. |
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The request for arbitration was accepted:
-- John Vandenberg ( talk) 00:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
comment here 147.114.226.172 ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I understand, the article is protected from editing (at least I cannot edit it), but there is no tag. Please some of admins, place the protection tag. Mukadderat ( talk) 22:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
PLEASE EXPLAIN why the article is NOT tagged as "Protected"? Mukadderat ( talk) 22:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I've posted a merge request on Criticism of Prem Rawat. I propose that we merge that article into this one because they have the same basic topic and because there is sufficient room in this article to handle all significant viewpoints that can be reliably sourced. If material needs to be spun off to maintain a reasonable size then we can find other material to move out. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The current article summarizes all the above comments in fair proportion and in the appropriate place. Counter comments from scholars such as Andrew Kopkind,[1] Charles H. Lippy,[2] John Bassett McCleary,[3] Ruth Prince and David Riches,[4] Bryan R. Wilson,[5] Dennis Marcellino, Erwin Fahlbusch,[6] Tim Miller, Raymond Lee, Rosemary Goring,[7] George D. Chryssides, David V. Barrett, Lucy DuPertuis, J. Gordon Melton, Jeffrey K. Hadden, Eugene M. Elliot III,[8] Sandra S. Frankiel,[9] and James Lewis. Barrett, Dupertuis, Melton are notably absent. Momento ( talk) 01:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
There are three types of "merge" described in Wikipedia editing - which to use depends on how much content of the source page you want to keep, and how much time and skill you have to do the merge:
I presume we are doing the selective paste merge which involves deciding what content to keep. For example, you surely don't expect to put this in the Rawat article -"An article written by Wim Haan, published in the official magazine of the Free University of Amsterdam in 1981, forwards several critical statements. In the article, Haan wrote that he was a member of a critical movement within the Roman Catholic Church and that he was a student of theology at a Pastoral and Theology school in a small town in the Netherlands. In that article, based on his description of his involvement with the DLM over the course of two years in the Netherlands, he asserts that Rawat's battle against the mind sometimes degenerated into complete irrationality, that sometimes premies branded every critical and objective approach as "mind", and that they often avoided discussions with outsiders because these discussions could possibly stimulate the mind". Or do you? Momento ( talk) 06:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
<<< I think it is premature to ask for unprotection. The ArbCom case is just a few days from closing, at which point we will have the necessary framework to engage in discussions and resume editing without disruption.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk)
02:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
<< What is the purpose of all these discussions here, when Will Beback has already taken it upon himself, and without discussion or seeking consesus, moved large portions of the material in that old article to Divine Light Mission, and Elan Vital (organization)? I will continue the discussion about the moved material in the respective articles. Now, my turn to ask a question, Will: Why? Why are you on one hand seem interested in discussing issues, and on the other hand you seem to dismiss the need for discussion, almost as if to prove a point. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't know who added the quote, I can see why some people would want that quote in the article, but seriously, are you kidding me?? Not surprisingly, since jossi is the only one who's done anything other than clean-up work, the
Sophia Collier page (as well as this article) neglects to mention that she's a former student of Rawat's. And this article gives that quote way too much weight. This is not a quote from a scholar's book, it's an autobiography, of someone who was 16 at the time she was living in an ashram (for a month), and the book wasn't written until 6 years later. Also, jossi, while you're at it, if you want to fix Sophia's article, I am pretty sure she didn't sell her beverage company to
Joseph E. Seagram in 1989, since he'd been dead for about 70 years at that point. If I can find some sources, I will try and edit that article later.
I don't even know how to express my incredulity at this addition. I have seen people on this article "freak out" because a reference was from a sociologist/psychologist/historian/scientist/scholar/whatever's PhD thesis, and therefore has undue weight, but a passing reference from a 16 year old girl who talks about her drug abuse and LSD experiences during that time in her life, written 6 years after the fact, that's ok with the same people?!? --
Maelefique
(talk)
15:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Collier book, let's remember that it is an autobiography, hence a primary source. WP:PSTS:
We can use it, we just need to be careful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Were they all "ordained" (pick your own word if needed) by Prem Rawat personally? Were all Mahatmas equal in status? In knowledge/ability? Could any Mahatma give the Knowledge (during the DLM days?)? Anyone have any good sources on the Mahatmas specifically? -- Maelefique (talk) 05:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Haan's 1981 account ( [2]) gives some detail about the mahatmas, by and large consistent with Momento's account above (e.g. renaming to "initiators", p. 47; privileged to give Knowledge and in high esteem within the movement, p. 37-38; their number reduced to about 50 shortly before autumn 1981, p. 57 footnote 3; etc).
Note that at /scholars Melton is not the only one mentioning mahatmas. Some other authors also give detail, e.g. from India; saffron robe (Geaves); "at this writing, all but one of Guru Maharaj Ji's some two thousand mahatmas are from India or Tibet" (Messer 1976); etc. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | If I have questions about the process or content of The Keys, is there someone I can call? You can ask questions or make comments either at "Inquiries" on this website or by speaking with a telephone assistant at any time during the preparation process. |
” |
-- Maelefique (talk) 16:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
What a boring read, why don't you all put your guns down. and start the whole article again in a friendly constructive way?
you could collaborate and actually 'have' an article..?
Personally I feel that as your primarily discussing an individual his basic human rights have priority..? I wouldn't like people publicly debating the truth of my life, (especially so aggressively).
There seems to be some malice involved too, what about live and let live...?
kiss (keep it simple stupid).
If you think it's boring don't read it. PatW ( talk) 13:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The request for arbitration was accepted:
-- John Vandenberg ( talk) 00:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
comment here 147.114.226.172 ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Downton says "We learned from the Mahatma that, if Jesus Christ was our master that was fine because Guru Maharaj Ji, in essence, was no different from Jesus Christ". Does that sound like a claim of divinity to anyone else? -- Maelefique (talk) 07:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
No need for priests in Rawat's case. He proclaimed his divine status himself on many occasions. One has only to read his speeches from DLM magazines from the time. I have a question. You have already resisted the use of Sophie Colliers book which was used here in a highly selective manner to illustrate how Rawat said to reporters that he was not God. What was omitted was the surrounding context which clearly indicated that Collier saw how Rawat spoke out of both sides of his mouth about such matters. Ie. gave his followers a far different impression. (I argued ad nauseam about that). Had someone then pointed out we can't use Collier because she's just a stoned follower then that would have neatly solved that problem. (Actually I've read Collier and I thought her book was intelligent and honest). In the past I limited my involvement here to trying to establish ground rules on what publications were permissable. I (unlike Momento and Ruminton} made the gesture of not editing until that was clear. That argument became entrenched and unclear despite Jossi's apparent' uber-clarity. Now we still have Ruminton and Momento warning everyone to observe BLP when editing here, as if they really know what that means. Frankly I think nobody really knows what these policies allow or disallow. Everyone (including neutral people with much experience) seems to have a different interpretation. Vassayana seemed to think that even Primary Sources were OK if used sensitively. I pointed out that the DLM magazines are available in many public libraries (ready public availability seemed to be a criteria). The devil is in the detail. What and whos 'sensitively is needed when using sources'? Jossi, Ruminton and Momento always shout 'IT IS PERFECTLY CLEAR' but I don't see it. They seem to exploit the vagueness to twist things to suit their own POV which, given their position as having strong views on the matter, is hardly surprising. One thing that has never been established is what sources can be used. And if there is accord on that then these guys have the books. Do you or Will have them too? How can you tell if stuff is cherry-picked if you don't have the books? Even when sources are approved they then argue that the people are expressing a minority view or it's not suitable for a BLP. It's just a no win situation. Now Collier is not ok to use... once it was. Who decides eventually? PatW ( talk) 09:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC) PatW ( talk) 09:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
This thread seems to have wondered far from its starting point. If I may make an observation about the suject and the DLM movement, there appears to have been a disconnect between what the subject said about himself and what his adherents, even the most senior followers, said about him. To boil it down, we have many quotes of him saying "I'm not god", and many quotes of his followers saying something like "he's god". This disconnect was so well known that he was asked about it during a press conference in 1973. As for the here and now, I perceive that some editors want to find proof that the subject called himself "god", while others want to disprove any such findings. My suggestion is to "cover the controversy". We should cover both what the subject said about himself and what his official followers said about him. Some of the latter may belong more in "DLM" or "Teachings", but it should be covered here too at least briefly. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
There is some truth in what Jayen says about there being room for multiple incarnations generally in Hindu sects. But pease don't think you can teach me about this Jayen- I and many others posting here are educated in these matters. The situation you describe is sort of true but it was not always accepted so happily and in Rawat's case he was very adamant about his unique status. You do not consider mentioning the phenomenon of 'Succession Disputes' which characterise Hindu sects. All scholars of Hinduism talk about this. Read Jurgensmeyer if in doubt. There was often violent disagreement between sects, in fact Rawats fathers sect attracted considerable extremely violent opposition from opposing groups- namely the Arya Samaj. This is well documented. Also when Prem Rawat's mother and brother tried to take control of DLM in India there was also violence and a court case with Rawat over property rights - which Rawat effectively lost; the judge reprimanding both parties for being manifestly 'ungodly' in their disagreement. Rawats brother now claims to be the true successor of the Guru Mantle as does Prem Rawat but there is no agreement that they are both authentic. (although they essentially teach the same meditation and Bhakti (devotional path).
It's a historical fact that Rawat allowed himself to be promoted as being more than just another 'guru'. The back cover of the book "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?" (published by Bantam, Nov. 1973) asks this further question: "Why do more than six million people around the world claim he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet? ..." Rawat was educated at a Catholic school and Christian belief informed much of his teachings in the 1970s - especially at the Millennium event in Houston, '73. Look at this picture to see what I mean.
I have no intention of wandering off the point here at all. I agree with Will that what Rawat said and what his official followers said is important and should be covered. I also agree that some editors want to disprove the subject called himself "God" in as much as they introduce only the 'sheepish denials' which Collier reported amongst others. I also agree that others (rightly) want to prove that he did mean he was uniquely divine. I don't believe Jayen's opinions help clarify the matter however well-intentioned. Nor does a published Doctor of Indian religion and philosophy at London University who spent 10 years in India studying Hinduism other sects. I read him this entire thread. He said that, with all due respect, what Jayen said is untrue with regard to Rawat's tradition and his Advait Mat roots and that the Sufi (Qutb) comparison is spurious.
Agra's incarnational theory posits that the divine current rises and ebbs . When it is present, it exists only in one person, the Satguru of that generation; when it is not, the current has temporarily withdrawn. According to the Beas teachings only a few param sants have appeared in world history-Kabir and Swami Shiv Dayal, for example . But there are many gurmukhs. At least one must be present in the world at all times, and there may be several: "There may and there may be several: "There may be many Masters living in different parts of the world.' (page 70 - 'Radhasoami Reality' by M.Jurgensmeyer)
I would suggest that DuPertuis's paper covers the area quite well and should be drawn on extensively if we want to present this in more detail, for example:
Charisma in Sant Mat / Radhasoami / DLM tradition can best be understood in terms of darshan for which, according to Bharati, "absolutely no parallel" can be found "in any religious act in the West . . . " (1970:161, cited in Eck, 1981:5). Darshan means "sight" - of the deity or the guru who embodies him/her, usually for the purpose of imbibing his/her divine powers or grace (Babb, 1981; Eck:1981). It implies sight on a rich multiplicity of symbolic and spiritual levels which demonstrate a complex mix of doctrinal and mythic, perceptual and visionary, interactional and experiential dimensions in the relationship between a charismatic spiritual leader and his or her followers.
Darshan is intimately related to what Lane describes as "three cardinal precepts" of Sant Mat tradition:
1) Satguru, both as the Absolute Lord (nirguna) and the living human master (saguna):
2) Shabd (sound or melody), which encompasses both that which is spoken or written and inner or spiritual sound which is beyond expression, the primal current of the Supreme Lord; and
3) Satsang, the congregation of earnest devotees of the truth (l981:12).
Satguru is the one who is seen in darshan; shabd provides the spiritual method for perceiving darshan; and in satsang devotees exchange "darshan stories." (10) With minor modifications these ideas have also guided Radhasoami and DLM.
Theologically, Satguru exemplifies the Hindu concept of the Absolute as both with and without form. As living human master Satguru does not merely represent the Absolute Lord, but Satguru is that Lord's form, or embodiment, or incarnation: (11) simultaneously, even as he sits before the devotees in the form of a living master, Satguru is also "non-dual, un-namable, and formless" (Lane, 1981:12). To Kabir, this Lord's "form is love" and "all light" [Tagore, 1977:1 13,75). Radhasoami means "Absolute Lord," whose form " . . . is without limits and beyond description. To what could I compare it? It is beyond all measure." (Singh, 1976:2:35-6, cited in Babb, 1981:390). Guru Maharaj Ji sometimes described this "Lord" or "God" as impersonal energy, at other times as the creator.
Devotees do not distinguish conceptually between formless and human manifestations of Satguru, for the goal is to perceive darshan of both at once. One must learn to see the formless Satguru via the master's physical form just as - in a favorite example used by Guru Maharaj Ji - Krishna on the battlefield suddenly revealed to his disciple Arjuna his transcendent, divine Form, speaking from innumerable mouths, seeing with myriad eyes, of many marvellous aspects . . ., annointed with perfumes of heavenly fragrance, full of revelations, resplendent, boundless, of ubiquitous regard (Prabhavanda and Isherwood, 1951:92).
Thus, the devotee can "now see his guru as he truly is; that is, as the Supreme Being." (Babb, 1981:390).
The quest for darshan can begin with either of two methods. If one starts by seeking darshan of the formless Satguru, one meditates, while darshan of the human Satguru involves a ritual encounter.
Jayen 466 15:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I wasn't aware of this paper. Thanks. This is much more the philosophy that was taught in the seventies although 'Shabd' was a Radhasoami term that was not used at all. Maharaji taught four meditation techniques which up until the eighties were referred to as Light, Music, Holy Name (sometimes called The Word) and Nectar. The latter was essentially the Kechari Mudra technique of Yoga. Although Advait Mat was Rawat's actual sect, the Radhasoamis clearly had very similar philosophies. As a matter of fact, the Radhasoami motto was 'Work is Worship' which was also the DLM motto. It was engraved above the door of the 'Palace of Peace' (a converted cinema in East Dulwich) in 1974. David Lane (mentioned above) wrote to me that he was told in India that Shri Hans had been initiated into Radhasoami by Sawan Singh prior to going his own way and meeting Adviat Mat guru Swarupanand. Hansji was clearly a follower of Sarupanand of Advait Mat. Hansji is also reported to have received initiation from Sawan Singh of Radhasoami Beas, as reported by Kirpal's personal secretary at Sawan Ashram, Gyanji (who I personally interviewed in July of 1978 on this issue). [5] [6] It would seem probable that Shri Hans must have formed a separate group after, or even perhaps during, the lifetime of Sarupanand (who died in 1936) with himself as the 'Satguru'. so when he met Swami Swarupanand, the saint who became his Spiritual Teacher, he devoted himself totally and dived into the infinite ocean of spiritual wisdom. His Guru declared, "I am in Hans' heart, and he is in mine", and he became the spiritual successor to Swami Swarupanand. In the early days of his mission, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj disseminated Spiritual Knowledge in Sind and Lahore. From 1930 he started teaching in Delhi....(Excerpt from 'Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj', Published by Divine Light Mission in 1970, B-19/3, Shakti Nagar, Delhi 7, India - Page 3) > [7] PatW ( talk)
Above is a list of the main Prem-Rawat related articles with their redirects and dismabiguation pages, the navigation aids, and the deletion discussions.
I've listed these to help us decide on a plan for organizing the material in a logical fashion. There are three active discussions at Talk:Divine Light Mission#Disambiguation and Proposal for Merger, Talk:Teachings of Prem Rawat#Merging?, and #Mergefrom Criticism of Prem Rawat on this page, and an agreed-upon proposal at Talk:Divine United Organization#Notability that has already been carried out. I've also added a merge tag on the TPRF article.
The proposals on the table are:
If these merges were all carried out we'd have "Prem Rawat", which would include criticism of him, information on his teachings, and on his foundation. We'd have two articles on the DLM, one focussed on the organization in India ("Indian DLM ") and the other focused on the organization in the rest of the world ("Western DLM"). Those articles would contain some of the teachings of Prem Rawat and his predecessors.
If none of these mergers are conducted we still need to decide which information about teachings goes in which article - there are potentially four articles that could carry various aspects: "Prem Rawat", "Teachings of Prem Rawat", "Divine Light Mission", and "Elan Vital (organization)". Currently, all four include some discussion of teachings, beliefs or practices, and there is a degree of duplication between them.
Rather than fighting over these matters individually, let's try to find a consensus on how to move forward with the organization of the articles in this topic. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Regarding my merge/split proposal for the Teachings of Prem Rawat into Divine Light Mission and Prem Rawat, I think that there are too little sources that make a clear distinction between the teachings by Prem Rawat versus the beliefs and practices of Elan Vital/ Divine Light Mission to warrant an article. If Jossi disagrees then I hope to hear from him sources that do otherwise. The descriptions of the Techniques of Knowledge sourced to Kranenborg and Melton in their articles about the DLM should be merged into Divine Light Mission while the re-naming by Rawat should either go into Elan Vital or Prem Rawat. Andries ( talk) 09:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I have a bit of a problem with the Teachings of Prem Rawat article. Since we are mainly now referring to "The Keys", and the Knowledge passed on through them is secret, how can we write any meaningful article about this? Either we shine some light on these teachings, or we mention them in passing inside the Prem Rawat article. I don't see why it really has an article of it's own at all. I guess that boils down to an agree to merge, with a lot of paring down. -- Maelefique (talk) 23:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Likewise, I have a problem with The Prem Rawat Foundation article as well. Perhaps if the article was more than a puff piece it would be better. From reading the article, it seems we might be able to include it, on its own, but as it stands now, there's very little in the way of sourcing, and what the heck is this doing here:
discussed on its website include the development of a facility in northern India where hundreds of free meals will be provided
I plan to fly to the moon someday, so what? Anyways, *if* that article can be cleaned up (basically, "done properly") I would say leave it as a stand-alone article. In its present form, unfortunately, I'd have to say scrap it, or add the few useful elements as a merge. I'd prefer it was sourced and fixed though. -- Maelefique (talk) 00:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) For all the talk page volume and edits currently being generated – this is the single (I would say only) most useful area in which to make progress. The fundamental failings of the Rawat articles (and they are dreadful) is STRUCTURAL. Until there is a resolution of the structural problem none of the enduring arguments will be settled.
Proposals as summarised
Criticism of Prem Rawat >>merge>> Prem Rawat. A substantial amount of what may classed as ‘criticism’ appears in sources that should properly be used in Prem Rawat, splitting the references into ‘neutral’ and ‘critical’ is a POV fork. Merger is essential.
The Prem Rawat Foundation >>merge>> Prem Rawat TPRF may or may not demand a WP article, however the relationship between Rawat and TPRF is too distant to make merger appropriate. Acknowledgement of the TPRF in Prem Rawat is clearly warranted but a detailed treatment of TPRF in the Rawat article would not be warranted, unless it were shown that Rawat was responsible for a large endowment that made TPRF possible or he plays a constructive role in the direction of the organisation. As it is TPRF was created and is run and funded by people other than Prem Rawat and a WP article should show that. Merger is therefore not warranted, although TPRF should perhaps be considered for deletion as not notable/significant.
Teachings of Prem Rawat <<split>> and >>merge part>> Divine Light Mission >>merge part>> Prem Rawat This presentation does not recognise the existing (absurd) complexity, the process in fact needs to be: Teachings of Prem Rawat <<split>> and >>merge part>> Divine Light Mission >>merge part>> Elan Vital >>merge part>> Prem Rawat In practice very little may transfer to Divine Light Mission which should properly be referenced to the Teachings of Hans Rawat Hans Ji Maharaj. To the extent that Prem Rawat expounded the teachings of Hans Ji Maharaj, Prem Rawat’s teaching should be referenced to Rawat Hans Ji Maharaj. In fact there are few (none ?) sources that actually claim that Rawat ‘taught’ what his father taught, other than the four techniques of meditation. A further complication is that academic description of the techniques is given in relation to Prem Rawat not Hans Rawat. In this one respect Jossi’s criticism of Andries’ proposal being ‘arbitrary’ in its distribution of merged material is probably correct and description of the techniques should attach to Prem Rawat and not his father, and clumsily Hans Ji Maharaj would need to refer to Prem Rawat for a description of the meditation.
Divine Light Mission <<split>> India and Western. Caution needs to be taken over the term Western in this context because there are implications of cultural as well a geographic meaning; this is doubly relevant as westernisation of both teaching and organisational style are reported by a number of source. The significance of this is that geographic change/differentiation was not contemporary with the reported cultural differentiation. (which may perhaps be the source of Jossi’s objections). There has already arisen a confusion over the Indian origin of DUO.
The process needs to be clearly defined in terms of:
1. Divine Light Mission (the organisation formed to further Hans Rawat’s teaching, solely located in India, and which was referenced to two unambiguous works of principle – the Hans Yog Prakash and the Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj - and chronologically co-existing with organisations founded by followers of Prem Rawat for a period of less than three years.
2. Organisations founded/created by followers of Prem Rawat: a number being called Divine Light Mission and later being renamed Elan Vital; one in the UK being called Divine Light Mission which was closed down, after a new organisation called Elan Vital was created, one called DUO created as an Association in India, which was later renamed Raj Vidya Kender. None of these organisations can be shown in anyway to have been predicated upon the either the Hans Yog Prakash or the Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj – and none of the sources refer to these works.
Jossi’s objections.
As I understand it Jossi is saying that if a source says Elan Vital – then that can only be used in a WP article called “Elan Vital”, and if a source says Divine Light Mission –then that can only be used in a WP article called Divine Light Mission. Jossi also raises the issue of DLM being described as a ‘movement’ and as being ‘defunct’, while he states that Elan Vital is not a ‘movement’. Logically this leads to:
1. Divine Light Mission = a movement
2. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by unrelated organisations
3. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by some related organisations
4. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by some related organisations which changed their names to Elan Vital
5. Elan Vital = the name adopted by some related organisations
6. 2. and 3. above were for a time part of 1.
7. Points 4. and 3. above are (mostly) the same entities which = 5. which when combined as 4, 3, and 2. comprised a movement (1.) but as 5. do not form a movement.
8. The solution to the equation of Point 7. is that the separation of 3. from 2. saw the end of the movement at point 1. – This separation did indeed happen, in 1974, unfortunately the sources that Jossi refers to keep talking about a movement for years after 1974.
If the WP reader is ever to have a chance of understanding what is written about Rawat, then at some point all the above has to be disambiguated. Jossi’s position of source defined apportionment to arbitrarily named articles makes disambiguation impossible, with no separation of meaning between ‘movement’ or ‘organisation’ within one article, but a separation of meaning between articles, and no logical chronological consistency either within the articles or between them.
There is clearly an understanding amongst some editors that things have to change – my belief is that the way forward is on the basis of successive disambiguation progressed on a chronological basis starting with Hans Rawat’s DLM. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 19:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
1. Divine Light Mission = a movement
2. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by unrelated organisations
3. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by some related organisations
4. Divine Light Mission = the name adopted by some related organisations which changed their names to Elan Vital
5. Elan Vital = the name adopted by some related organisations
6. 2. and 3. above were for a time part of 1.
7. Points 4. and 3. above are (mostly) the same entities which = 5. which when combined as 4, 3, and 2. comprised a movement (1.) but as 5. do not form a movement.
8. The solution to the equation of Point 7. is that the separation of 3. from 2. saw the end of the movement at point 1. – This separation did indeed happen, in 1974, unfortunately the sources that Jossi refers to keep talking about a movement for years after 1974. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 11:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Jayen you seem to be sympathetic towards the POV that Jossi and TPRF and EV and Rawat have tried to assert here. Please be clear, there is a subtle way of wording things to make it look as if Rawat had no part in the forming or running of these organisations. Jossi and Momento have worked towards giving this impression. These movements did not 'form around Rawat' without his control except of course DLM which he was born into and tried more and more to wrest back from being the 'Youth Movement' that he felt was out of his control. Followers are keen to distance Rawat from responsibility from all the organisations that promote him. Have you noticed that? There is almost the pretence that they are just 'fan clubs'. The disconnect is because in fact they are bending over backwards to do his wishes. Rawat has much input on these things. Rawat has made it quite clear even recently, that he considers his past very dangerous to talk openly about. For example Rawat himself is largely responsible for the controversial idea that the Mahatmas brought all the troublesome Hindu concepts to the West and he has said he personally should not have to defend himself from any backlash. Here are some quotes from his recent 'training sessions' that illustrate his POV:
Why does Rawat say it is 'pathetic' to have to defend himself? Or that followers should feel guilty if they talk about it? I think that this reflects a fear that the world is against him and he has to be extremely guarded about his past. Obviously Rawat felt badly received by the seventies press and that is probably why he became so publicity shy. Rawat, like any politician, would prefer to write his own history. Hence a spate of vanity publications and hence Jossi's presence here. Does anyone here think for one moment that it is merely a coincidence that Jossi was Rawat's personal webmaster before coming here? If you think that DLM, Elan Vital and now TPRF are such separate, distinctive movements then consider this: Rawat has simply changed his presentation and goals over time and emphasises this by creating different organisations. Essentially they are run by the same people (his same followers) and he is ultimately in control. In my opinion Maelefique is quite right that it is wrong to keep separating all these things which should all be under one heading - Prem Rawat. These are his organisations. People like Jayen want the article not to be insulting towards the subject (movement) and seem prepared to go along to some extent with Jossi's POV to preserve a respectful attitude. In my opinion that is not an appropriate outcome (although of course we should not be disrespectful). Others want a broader, less biased treatment which by it's nature (not from any malevolent intent) could conceivably be a little offensive to Rawat and his followers. Rawat is caught between his desire to spread his religion to the world and the desire to be an extremely private, even secretive movement. This is surely the dilemma we see played out here. In my view, if Rawat wants a presence here then he has to accept that accuracy may contradict some of his propaganda. This is not a pro or anti site. Like any person in the public eye he may need to accept that aspects of his life have been controversial. That's life. It is not our job to paint followers critique-free picture or kao tow to the way TPRF, DLM, EV want to pretentiously distinguish themselves. We should present these organisations chronologically under Prem Rawat and make it clear that they have evolved to become more controlled by Prem Rawat as time passed. We might describe (using legitimate sources) how these organisations have different functions and appearances but how they are essentially organisations to promote Prem Rawat's message. I don't know whether there should be separate articles as well. PatW ( talk) 09:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The Survival of the Coolest appears to concern another "Maharaj Ji" (perhaps the guru of Ram Dass), not Prem Rawat or his father. The "Ji" in that book wears a Sikh-style turban and is never described as a child or young person even though the action is set in the late 1960s. Neither that book nor Melton mention anything about Glastonbury, Paris, Heidelberg, or school holidays. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Maharaj Ji decided to take his message of peace outside India in 1970. He made his first appearance in the West in 1971 at a pop music festival in Glastonbury, England. Biography: Maharaj Ji, Britannica Book of the Year (1974), p.154.
Thanks, that sources at least some of it. Here's another similar problem:
This is far more detail than Melton gives. I presume there's another source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Does this reporter have a name? Did he publish his report in any publication? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
That goes way beyond what the unknown reporter writing in the unknown newspaper wrote. The quote from the interview doesn't even mention the mother. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikiquote is obviously unacceptable as a source (the entry there is unsourced). Besides that, the text is making conclusions which should be cited to a secondary source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Gosh, and I thought the hard-headed secularists here didn't believe in divine power. :D Rumiton ( talk) 11:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Can one of the Dutch speakers explain this word? Is it even Dutch? "Routinised charisma" makes no sense in English. Rumiton ( talk) 12:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I intend to delete the sentence containing this expression as misleading. "Routinised charisma" is a specific term from divinity studies unknown to most English speakers. It is poorly rendered as "inherited" charisma, and as it actually involves the cultural acceptance of a previous minority sect it has no relevance to Prem Rawat. It is, at best, an exceptional claim. Rumiton ( talk) 13:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Francis, the ref (2) I deleted made no mention of the name Sant Ji Maharaji. It added nothing of value to the lead. Rumiton ( talk) 14:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
These edits [19] have multiple problems, which I will address later on. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not have time for a thorough review of all these edits, but these are the more critical:
Given that we are engaged in ann orderly debate about these articles with the assistance of the MedCab, which all editors have been informed of its proceedings, it would be wise to engage there rather than make changes to the lead without discussion and introduce additional disputes. We have our hands full already.
I would encourage all participants, to cool off and accept the fact that we need to reach consensus on this and related articles. Fighting for our preferred versions of the article will not produce the results we need. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Re. 1: "I gather it had some consensus behind it", no: it was edit-warred leading up to the recent ArbCom case: [20]. I'm restoring the version that had more consensus, and was more or less stable for several months before the final edit war leading up to the ArbCom case.
Please take it from there. I prefer the version I had made yesterday. The source eliminated was only proof for the organisations' take on the issue, not Rawat's. "uses an opinion of one source asserting it as it was a fact" is unclear. "The previous version was more accurate and NPOV", definitely not, and it is an OR version: combining "whose emphasis is on an individual, subjective experience rather than on a body of dogma" and "has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content [...]" is bringing two unrelated issues together as if they weren't. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I can see that editors have rushed in and got Momento blocked. Round trips to WP:AE, will now become the currency of this page? I was under the understanding that we were conducting an orderly debate with the help of the Mediation Cabal, but it seems that certain editors rather than participate in the mediation debates, have chosen to force their hand via WP:AE. This does not bode well, IMO. 02:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
"It hasn't taken Momento long to get back into his old unwelcome tricks ie. removing material which has been discussed many times. When is someone going to stop this absurd POV pushing? And how? Will, you should know perfectly well what this vandal's standard is by now. Anything that is critical about his guru gets removed at the earliest possible convenience. What a complete farce. Also the guy has been criticised until the cows come home by almost everyone who comes here (visa vi the Arbcom evidence) and yet he carries on without a hint of embarassment. What does that tell me? He is probably working for Prem Rawat and is just following orders. Anyone who was an unbiased editor would have been long ago piqued by social conscience into being more reasonable. Also Momento is clearly laughing at you and Francis when you ask him your polite little questions. Do you really think he's going to give you a sensible answer? No he is plainly delighted at your impotence to stop him doing exactly what his bosses want."
I don't believe it is necessary to have about 30% of the material in this section. It is all quoted, or paraphrased, from the Teachings of article, which is referenced right at the beginning of this section. If someone wants to find out about more, it is one click away. This duplication of material seems to be spreading throughout the PR articles which only serves to make them appear longer than they should be. This section should summarize his teachings, which can be done quite easily by fluffing out something like "Originally drawn from Indian traditions, PR's teachings have evolved into series of meditation techniques that seek to help the practitioner achieve an inner peace by turning one's senses inward instead of outward. These methods are not indicative of any particular religion or lifestyle. The are subjective to each individual, and expected to be practiced and comprehended privately.". Suggestions, thoughts, flames, etc invited and expected. -- Maelefique (talk) 15:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
FYI: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#Momento_edit-warring_over_criticism_section_at_Prem_Rawat. Interested editors may want to add their views. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
This is very far from what the Dutch source says. I will change it tomorrow. God, this article is a freaking pigsty. Rumiton ( talk) 13:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
translated as:Tegelijkertijd betekent dit echter [dat] charismatisch leiderschap als zodanig tot op zekere hoogte ensceneerbaar is. Maharaj Ji is daar een voorbeeld van. In zekere zin gaat het hier om geroutiniseerd charisma (erfopvolging), maar voor de volgelingen in Amerika en Europa geldt dat toch nauwelijks: zij waren bereid in juist hem te geloven en er was rond Maharaj Ji een hele organisatie die dat geloof voedde en versterkte.
...without excluding pre-emptively that improvements to the summary wouldn't be possible. Please see also discussion at Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat#Improving article, where various alternatives were considered. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)At the same time, this means however that charismatic leadership, as such, can be staged to a certain degree. Maharaj Ji is an example of this. Certainly, Maharaj Ji's leadership can be seen as routinized charisma (hereditary succession), but for the followers in America and Europe this is hardly significant: they were prepared to have faith specifically in him and Maharaj Ji was embedded in a whole organisation that fed and reinforced that faith.
See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#Jossi launching subtle personal attacks -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 19:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It only took me a couple of mintues to track this down. Jossi provided the source, and Francis added it. Jossi posted:
Then Francis summarized it as:
That certainly isn't a misquote or bad summary. The mistake, to the extent that there was one, when Francis used Jossi's proffered source without checking the information himself. It appears that the actual citation is to Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion, and the text is on page 21. [30] So the material is proprely summarized/quoted and should not have been deleted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
What were some of the trappings of religious practice in this emerging movement? Potential initiates were usually introduced to the Divine Light Mission at a session of religious discourse called a satsang, where experienced members presented the philosophy of the sect to the assembled group. The satsang could be delivered to active members or to those with only a casual interest. It was something of a polemic interspersed with parables, and because members were bright and sophisticated, these discourses tended to be engaging, making use of both Hindu mythology and Western philosophy.
Why was this material moved to the "Teachings" article? [32]
The text addresses Rawat as a leader, and doesn't refer to his teachings. ·:· Will Beback ·:·
Where are we currently with regard to the idea of merging Criticism of Prem Rawat into this article? That article (i.e. the Criticism article) had a "mergeto" tag until a few days ago, for merging it into this article (i.e. the Prem Rawat article). Not so long ago someone also replaced the mergefrom tag in Prem Rawat#Reception by a {{ main}} tag in the "Criticism" subsection (now deleted).
Well, one of the two, either the idea is still to merge, then it would be best to indicate that in both articles with an appropriate "merge" tag; either we're no longer sporting that idea, and then I suppose the only practical solution would be to follow summary style for a criticism section in this article, while keeping a separate criticism article.
The situation as created by Momento (by removing an appropriate link to the Criticism article, whether in a "merge" type of tag or in a "main" type of tag) is of course untenable. Suggestions? I'd go for the "main" tag again under the current circumstances, but that sort of implies to have a "Criticism" section title in the Prem Rawat article. Or is there currently still a broad support for the merge option? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
This is a real mess. First the article is restored to pre-Arbcom state, and then that is partially undone. Now there are discussions about completing the merge, when we have not been able to stabilize the article. What do you think would be the result? Would it be stable or would it start another set of roundtrips to WP:AE? What happened to the mediation? Are we serious about it or it is just a smoke and mirrors exercise? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Why does this keep getting deleted in favour of a negatively slanted version? A host of sources, from Hunt to Hummel, tell us this. Rumiton ( talk) 13:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
<<<My comments have been, for some time, above in #Problematic edits. Another "fragmentation of discussion" example, not caused by me. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I intend to get rid of this breath-takingly irrelevant nonsense. Any objections? Rumiton ( talk) 13:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In the teachings section it says: Rawat speaks spontaneously, drawing upon real life experiences, anecdotes and his own experience, rather than scriptural interpretation, uncluttered by tradition in the vein of a contemporary Kabir or Nanak.[89][90] and this is referenced from Geaves and/or Melton. Such a particular and ceertainly flattering comparison seems to me to be likely made by Ron Geaves, himself a well-known and self-proclaimed devotee of Prem Rawat. I may be wrong but my guess is that Melton would not have said this. Can someone a) please clarify where this sentence derives from? b) Explain what the current thinking is about using Geaves here as a reliable source given his status as a significant follower? PatW ( talk) 18:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
(UTC)
Is there any particular reason why nobody is addressing my question above (which I have discussed many times here with no real consensus ever being reached) - what is the current thinking on the use of Geaves as a source? Same goes for Collier and Cagan. For two years now I have restricted my contributions pretty much to the Talk pages for the stated reason that it was plainly important to establish ground rules as to what material is can be used and why. For years I've had Jossi preaching at me as if he knows the answer and I don't - but that's all up in the air now. Now I bring it up again nobody's apparently interested. Will? Francis? Jossi? Ruminton? Are you there? PatW ( talk) 22:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I just discovered that there is specific discussion about this on the DLM page. Is there a good reason that I was not asked to participate in this discussion along with other involved parties? PatW ( talk) 06:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Deleting sourced material with an edit summary of "tweaked" is unacceptable. If you see something in the article you would like to change please discuss it on the talk page first, this is something I would have expected from Momento, not you. I am reverting your edits until there is a reason for them, not because I do not agree with them. There is no reason to act this way. -- Maelefique (talk) 21:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In 1973 the 50-member public relations team of the Divine Light Mission summarized Rawat's image as a "fat 15-year-old with pie in his face ... and a Rolls-Royce ... who was arrested for jewel smuggling. Are you sure this is what the PR team said? I really do not know anymore what are you trying to do here, Will. Seriously. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
According to an AP wire published in The Stars and Stripes newspaper in 1973, the 50-member public relations team of the Divine Light Mission who met to talk about the guru's image, concluded that he was seen as a "fat 15-year-old with pie in his face ... and a Rolls-Royce ... who was arrested for jewel smuggling", and pointed at the necessity to establish his credibility beyond his age and body shape.
<<<(A small request: please do not use "per Jossi's request" in edit summaries. Stating as per discussion in talk, is prefereable and more accurate. Thanks in advance.) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
<outdent> How could it possibly be more accurate to attribute a text change to some non-specific contributor on a talk page, rather than to identify who suggested it? It may be preferable, it certainly isn't more accurate. It *might* be more preferable and accurate to say "per jossi's request, see discussion on talk page" or something like that. Is that what you meant? -- Maelefique (talk) 23:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
... That editors slow-down a bit with edits so that there is sometime given for these to be discussed? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
<<< I will still have to raise a concern here. We have at least 15 items in the mediation page that needs our attention, and instead of bridging these disputes there, a new set of disputes is being introduced here. There are even assertions made that the DLM areticle has improved, which in light of the many disputes there, I would say that it is either wishful thinking, or an attempt to frame that article as resolved. It is not. Hereby I object to the way this is progressing. I will port a concern in the MedCab page to in this regard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
<< Jossi, whoa. That sounded like you were threatening them. Okay, Everyone calm down. While I can't impose edits, or actions, I'd advise the editors to work towards a consensus here before making edits. Remember that all articles are on article probation. As for protection during disputes, I've only requested that be done when I felt necessary, at this time, it's probably unnecessary. And, if it was protected, I'd ask that Jossi not edit the page, even though they can, as a sysop. I'm still watching. Continue discussion. And erm, perhaps you should use bullets and outdents a little more? Creates a page stretch. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 05:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, I feel MedCab is a good thing, and I don't think it's beyond us, or, me, to resolve this dispute, or at least improve the situation. I haven't been following the discussion on the talk pages extensively, I can do that now. Could you bring me up to speed? And I have no doubt as an admin you would not edit a protected page, it was just something to mention. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 06:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Mediation is about consensus. With respect Jossi, perhaps I should do the advising here? :) Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 06:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I have still not responded regarding the invitation to participate in the Mediation, posted about a week ago now on my talk page. First: thanks for the invitation. Second: sorry for taking so long to think about it. I have read quite some parts of the MedCab related texts now: not so many of them were talk where I felt directly involved. I think talk on this page to find consensus on the content of the Prem Rawat article quite productive lately. I'm less interested in the DLM article currently, or rather, one can't do it all. Once the Prem Rawat article has reached near-perfection, I'll see what I do with my time then. Anyway, if some of the topics of the MedCab proceedings catch my attention I might contribute, I hope there's no impediment there (if there is: I'm happy with whatever consensus the MedCab results in). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
We have now again the highly unbalanced situation, that will inevitably cause controversy: A relativly extensive “Criticism” section in the article, and nothing about approval. Isn’t it jinxed? What do you “uninvolved” editors intend to do about it? How could this happen? Do you think it’s alright?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 19:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Numbers don’t balance appraisal. If you give room to negative assessment, you must also give room to positive assessment, possibly in a proportional way (that would make the article rather lengthy) or somehow giving an account of the real proportions. Otherwise the article is negatively biased. Maybe give it a thought or two when you're finished with dealing with that ulcer.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 20:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The heading says “Reception”, which should incorporate numbers and content in a neutral manner. Then there is only explicitly negative (“brainwashing” and “mind control”) or superficial (charisma being an effect of staging) appraisal as regards content. Hard to understand what made and makes such numbers of people get involved with Rawat, against the admittedly negative grain of mass media. “Following” does not balance “Criticism”, but covers the numerical development of the movement over time, which is also informative. “Criticism” is not balanced at all, but scrapes the bottom of invidious apostasy and Dutch theology. Isn’t this somehow “intellectually unremarkable”?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 21:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I am not against mentioning the criticism. But being explicit exclusively on critical issues is not correct in this case. Everybody has heard about Mother Theresa or the Pope from many sources, but Prem Rawat is largely unknown, and the WP-article may for many readers be the first instance of encountering the subject, so there is a special responsibility for delivering a carefully undistorted account. I did not request “equal amounts of positive and negative contents”, as that would display a false balance anyway. I asked for a more neutral point of view as a background for the Reception section, as I observe an obvious deficiency there. And I do not think I am misunderstanding the idea of balance, as it appears rather simple. And you have not adressed my concern.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 22:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
From patronizing to cynical.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 22:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Will, please. This is not helpful whatsoever. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
And now to hysterical. What's eating you guys? Aren't you experienced editors? Is what I say so far from common sense and so hard to understand? You make me feel I'm wasting time with you. But maybe I'm just tired, think I'll go to bed. Good night!-- Rainer P. ( talk) 22:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Rainer P, is making a very solid argument above, which is being dismissed with flippant comments and not to the merits of the argument. I do not think that he deserves that kind of treatment, so I look forward to hearing arguments and response to his comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
Good morning! So you can not understand what I say? How come I’m not surprised? Must be because English is only one foreign language to me, that’s why I’m reluctant to edit the article. But I am quite familiar with human behavior, and I can tell the difference between serious collaboration and arrogance. I like your fancy signature. But I think, the level of understanding you have to date displayed in enhancing the quality of the article does not give you the right of making me an object of your fun. Sorry, I won’t dance. And not being unemployed, I have to now to look after some responsibilities. Take care! P.S. "Hysterical" means: acted, not authentic.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 06:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
That looks better. But one wonders, if the Stephen A. Kent-quote can be called a scholarly assessment – commenting on hearing one (?) address, seemingly unprepared (otherwise no disappointment nor surprise). Maybe he can be called a scholar in some of his works, but the term ‘assessment’ is stretched a little here, as it implies to my understanding a certain level of scientific effort, at least proper description. And still: Even the Teachings-section says little about the appeal, resp. the effect of the Knowledge, when practiced right. But that's what constitutes the main motive – not Rawat's charisma or other personal attributes – for the whole movement. Without information on this, the whole scene stays more or less incomprehensible, or just strange. So I suggest to give a little more information about this in the teaching section, there are abundant sources. That could perhaps counterweigh some of the negative slant of the Reception chapter. Opinions?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 12:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The material from Schnabel is written in an editorial voice, when it is actually Schnabel's opinion. The voice needs to be changed and the opinion attributed. It may need trimming as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Current edit:
Schnabel observed, referring to research by Van der Lans, that among his Western students, Rawat appeared to stimulate an uncritical attitude, giving them an opportunity to project their fantasies of divinity onto his person. The divine nature of the guru is a standard element of Eastern religion, but removed from its cultural context, and confounded with the Western understanding of God as a father, what is lost is the difference between the guru's person and that which the guru symbolizes. The result is limitless personality worship. Schnabel observed that this kind of understanding of the master-disciple relationship, alien to the original Eastern guru-disciple context, often ends in disillusionment for the disciple, who finds that the teacher in the end fails to live up to his or her expectations. [4]
Proposed edit:
Schnabel, referring to research by Van der Lans, that among his Western students, Rawat appeared to stimulate an uncritical attitude, giving them an opportunity to project their fantasies of divinity onto his person. Lans describes the divine nature of the guru is a standard element of Eastern religion, but removed from its cultural context, and confounded with the Western understanding of God as a father, what is lost is the difference between the guru's person and that which the guru symbolizes, resulting, in Lans' view, in a limitless personality worship. Schnabel observed that this kind of understanding of the master-disciple relationship, alien to the original Eastern guru-disciple context, often ends in disillusionment for the disciple, who finds that the teacher in the end fails to live up to his or her expectations. [4]
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Another proposal, fully attributed:
Schnabel, referring to research by Van der Lans, asserts that among his Western students, Rawat appeared to stimulate an uncritical attitude giving them an opportunity to project their fantasies of divinity onto his person. According to Schnabel, the divine nature of the guru is a standard element of Eastern religion, but when removed from its cultural context—and confounded with the Western understanding of God as a father—what is lost is the difference between the guru's person and that which the guru symbolizes, resulting in limitless personality worship. Schnabel opines that this kind of understanding of the master-disciple relationship, alien to the original Eastern guru-disciple context, often ends in disillusionment for the disciple, who finds that the teacher in the end fails to live up to his or her expectations. [4]
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=214592307&oldid=214585807 -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
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(p. 99:) [...] persoonlijke kwaliteiten alleen [zijn] onvoldoende [...] voor de erkenning van het charismatisch leiderschap. [...] de verwende materialistische en intellectueel weinig opmerkelijke Maharaj Ji. (p. 101-102:) Tegelijkertijd betekent dit echter [dat] charismatisch leiderschap als zodanig tot op zekere hoogte ensceneerbaar is. Maharaj Ji is daar een voorbeeld van. In zekere zin gaat het hier om geroutiniseerd charisma (erfopvolging), maar voor de volgelingen in Amerika en Europa geldt dat toch nauwelijks: zij waren bereid in juist hem te geloven en er was rond Maharaj Ji een hele organisatie die dat geloof voedde en versterkte. |
[...] personal qualities alone are insufficient for the recognition of the charismatic leadership. [...] the pampered materialistic and intellectually quite unremarkable Maharaj Ji. At the same time, this means however that charismatic leadership, as such, can be staged to a certain degree. Maharaj Ji is an example of this. Certainly, Maharaj Ji's leadership can be seen as routinized charisma (hereditary succession), but for the followers in America and Europe this is hardly significant: they were prepared to have faith specifically in him and Maharaj Ji was embedded in a whole organisation that fed and reinforced that faith. |