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Before criticizing the genre name as if the subgenre doesn't exist at all, consider the terms "post-" and "progressive" used in other art media such as post-modernism and post-impressionism. It is entirely possible to still create an impressionist painting, but it's also possible to create a post-impressionist painting. Essentially "post-" is a way of saying "Uses its suffix as a springboard but deconstructs the original style using other typically unrelated influences or techniques in order to explore new unique avenues that would not otherwise be part of the initial genre." Meanwhile, "progressive" typically refers to deconstruction of the genre using its own materials for further experimentation of the genre itself. Post-metal uses metal as a foundation, but deconstructs the sounds from metal and mixes it with otherwise typically unrelated genres to explore what else can be done with it. Prog-metal is still firmly rooted within metal but experiments with metal's own sounds and styles. Frankly I'd point to there being very little difference between progressive metal and technical metal, before pointing the finger at prog and post.
Examples, using architecture:
205.250.211.218 ( talk) 22:41, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
This genre doesn't exist. It's just made up to (for whatever reason) further categorize bands that already have genres. The 'criticism' topic on the article offers no arguments why it should exist, just that a lot of people think it shouldn't... Evanmontegarde 22:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)evanmontegarde
I am a music reviewer for Harm.us and I would be hesitant to create post-metal as a genre. It seems too pretentious too me as a label and further obfuscates already ambiguous and hotly contested genre distinctions. There is no common linkage to these bands. There is no popular or consensual impetus that warrants the creation of this page. I am a music critic by trade and even I believe that this category is merely a ruse to stroke the egos of music elitists so they can pontificate and point to this article as a verification of their outlandish fantasies. 203.214.47.30 13:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
To something to be Post-, the genre before it has to die. Metal is a thriving genre. Post-Rock is also non-existent. Makiyu 19:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The guy from Isis did not coin the term "thinking man's metal", nor has it anything to do with post-metal. Queensryche used that term to market their genre of progressive metal years ago. Also, something I'd like to bring to the table: What exactly is the difference between "avant-garde metal" and "post-metal" (besides the fact that both "genres" use pretentious and abstract terms to identify themselves)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.38.41 ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
While I am in favor of the use of the term "post-metal," I don't see the reason for having Kayo Dot and maudlin of the Well in the list of notable bands, as they already fit so perfectly into the "avantgarde metal" genre. I don't think that they share the similar sound of ISIS or Cult of Luna. Also I would say the same thing for Boris because (as far as I know) they don't have any releases that sound similar to the rest of the bands. Brownishleaf 13:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have cleaned out the "Notable bands" section again, and I think it should stay limited to about 10 bands (If you think a different band should be substituted, please make a case for it) The existing list was (with a ! after the ones I removed):
Battle of Mice was unsourced, Godflesh is generally not included in most accounts I have seen of the genre, Red Sparowes and Russian Circles are post-rock (and Russian Circles has already been discussed), Sunn O))) is Drone metal, Thy Catafalque does not have the necessary basis in sludge metal (and I do not believe that they are notable enough to be included in such a section), and Tool is a progressive metal/rock band. As was said previously, in an article of a genre as disputed as this one, I do not belive that we should be including bands that are borderline at best in the "notable bands" section.
On a different note, I didn't edit it in, though I feel like The Ocean Collective has more claim to this list than, say, Burst and maybe Callisto (in terms of genre) and Mouth of the Architect or Rosetta (in terms of notability). H2ostra ( talk) 05:16, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I've been bold and cut down the list to the most notable exponents of the genre. Many of them were redlinked, or only labelled post-metal by a stretch. I feel any more additions should be more carefully considered, and possibly discussed here. However, for legacy's sake, here's the list as it stands before the edit:
I can't claim to be an absolute authority on the genre; but niche/redlinked bands don't truly contribute to the encyclopaedic or informative nature of the article. Seegoon 13:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Um OK. Anyway, new rule should be enforced here: don't link to redlinked bands. It's a list of notable bands, and if they're notable, they're likely to have their own article. I know this means the removal of some archetypal bands, but until they have their own pages the links are useless. Seegoon 19:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
They're often referred to as post-metal, but it's hard to find a definitive reference to such. Any ideas? Though they are post-rock, no doubt, they also seem to fit post-metal as well. That's the trouble with post-metal, it's often very close to post-rock, and is thusly difficult to classify without at least some crossover. Thoughts? Moonty 20:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I truly believe that some views expressed above are not shared by people who consider themselves fans of the mentioned bands. If anyone feels it will contribute, I could gladly assemble a list of reviews/interviews (and perhaps band biographies) that clearly and obviously associate many of these bands, and that suggest the emergence of a common genre they are all a part of. Here is a quick sample from About.com's Heavy Metal section on Mouth of the Architect's Time and Withering album, second sentence:
http://heavymetal.about.com/od/cdreviews/fr/mouthofarchitec.htm
These kinds of references are easy to find and almost obligatory on sites that regularly encounter and review this type of material, and I will gladly draw up more such references if anyone thinks they would be useful. Also, if you check for any Isis albums on Amazon.com you will find many of the listed bands there as well. You can also read opinions at Isisboard.com (Isis fan community) and see that a large group of people associate these bands in a way that is well-represented by this article.
As for Harm.us, I looked at that site, and they only even review two of the listed bands (Callisto and Mouth of the Architect), with nothing at all on Isis/Neurosis. And, even those two reviews were from an outsider perspective of a generally mainstream metal oriented site, obviously unfamiliar with this common sound that regular fans generally seem well aware of. I respect your site's metal credentials generally speaking, but Harm.us is not familiar these kinds of bands.
In general, I think this article is at least well founded and that it clarifies the standing of these bands, rather than obscures it. -glenstein aka Abbenm 76.179.26.12 04:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Was there something wrong with my line 47 edit that got removed? I'm guessing you just reverted to the version before my edit, because you also restored a misspelled version of the word "reinstatement". There should be some sort of message there however to discourage the addition of bands to the list, and the present message seems to address this only indirectly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbenm ( talk • contribs) 01:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I can see there's a fair amount of back-and-forth here regarding the validity of this genre, and its labeling as such. To work towards a really decent, solid yay or nay, there are some pertinent questions which need answering, from both the pro- and anti-labeling camps. I'll tell you now that I am for the use of the label, so expect a bias in that direction. However, any conceptually adequate, complete argument against it will also bear my full consideration. Here are the important questions - feel free to add more, or respond in whatever constructive manner you see fit.
1. Is there a prominent and cohesive enough musical movement to justify the use of one label for all bands?
2. Do the people using the labels carry enough reputability for us to distil the term from their use?
2b. Bearing that in mind, do said bands self-identify as "post-metal"?
3. Why, among all the myriad names attributed to this genre, is "post-metal" chosen?
I'm sure there are more which I've missed - add any you see fit.
Seegoon
19:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I know this is a bizarre concept, but I'm going to respond to my own questions and hope you guys will follow suit.
1. I reckon so. Beginning with Isis and Cult of Luna, we've seen a legion of soundalike bands formed in the past five or so years. Although few of them have achieved the reputation of Cult of Luna or Isis, their influence is clear. I'll name a few: Pelican, Tides, Rosetta, Russian Circles, Fall Time, Callisto, Finger of God, Jakob, Red Sparowes, Mouth of the Architect, Khoma, The Ocean, Transmission0...
2. This is one of the most contentious issues, I'll admit that freely. However, in our sources we can see New York Times journalism and magazines such as Terrorizer and Rock Sound have begun to take it up.
2b. This is another issue. However, it is rare for any band from any musical movement to volunteer themselves into a fixed genre. That said, I've seen Isis promoted as post-metal more than once. I'm talking about a fixed decision by their distributors and record companies. A sticker on the cover of either SGNL>05 or Celestial described them as "post-metal alchemists", and a
Southern Records promo sheet also uses the term. I haven't dug around for other bands so much, as Isis' page is a pet project of mine and I focus my attention on that.
3. Another hard-to-answer question. Simply put - it's the only one on which there appears to be some form of consensus. You see "instro-metal" and suchlike banded around, but if you mention post-metal to someone, they tend to know what you're talking about. Likewise, it implies some form of progression from metal, which I believe is a fair piece of conjecture. If you look at post-rock, it isn't so much a direct progression of rock, but an altered perspective on what came before it, over time morphing from one thing into another.
I know these aren't all great points, and I haven't completely convinced myself. However, I hope it'll spur some creative discussion on.
Seegoon
19:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The whole creation of the Atmospheric Sludge Metal/Post-Metal is wishful thinking. This whole school of bands who ripped off Neurosis and Godflesh are not Metal atall. To be begin we need to first need to all accept that both founding artists came from “Core” backgrounds and arrived at their sound without influence from Metal. Before claims of “Guitar Tone” get posted you should be aware and hopefully accept the fact that “Heavy” music exists and sometimes it isn’t actually Metal. They have cited their influences many times infact never implying any Metal let alone Doom but rather experimental music and industrial. Lately post-rock has become a even more prominent part of this school of post-hardcore bands. Not alone that but the big players in the school of bands who did infact rip them off also had core backgrounds.
Cult Of Luna’s previous incarnation was a hardcore band. Isis used to be hardcore and their songwriter runs a hardcore label. Neurosis used to be hardcore. Callisto fashion themselves as hardcore and infact share a lyrical theme of Christianity which is very prominent in a number of hardcore bands. Buried Inside call themselves a hardcore band. Pelican members (apart from one) were all involved in “core”.
This page needs to be deleted
-- Lysergix 10:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Does this actually bring anything to the page? This is one reviewers opinion, and as far as i am concerned and my friends that like post-metal are concerned, live performances of post metal are certainly not boring. I do understand that this is just opinion, and surely citing a reviewer (12) cannot be justification for adding this. What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.177.5 ( talk • contribs)
These two sentenses seem to be in Controversion
If Oceanic (2002) was already post-metal than Panopticon (2004) was not prime -- A4 ( talk) 09:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I dont think Ufomammut should be in that list, it's straight up stoner doom not post-metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.149.249.161 ( talk) 05:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Hard to say that after the release of "Eve" by Ufomammut in 2010. 69.237.149.106 ( talk) 01:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, the "stylistic origins" box is out of control.
Let's pare it down to the sources discussed in the article. So Aaron Turner says the prime forebears are Flying Luttenbachers, Melvins, Godflesh, and Neurosis. Flying Luttenbachers are a
punk jazz group, Melvins and Neurosis are
sludge metal groups, and Godflesh is an
industrial metal group. Actually, Godflesh could also be considered sludge, so let's just cut it down to punk jazz and sludge. I guess we're considering Helmet to be post-metal, and they're a
noise rock group, so that gets added. If Tool counts, they always cite King Crimson, so we'll add
progressive rock.
Seems to me like this is enough. If we're going to add some other stylistic origin, I think some source or argument should be presented.
Shoegazing should be added, too, given the prevalence of the "metalgaze" label.
Aryder779 (
talk)
18:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Most of the bands considered to be Post-Metal are usually tagged also as Sludge. From what I've read and heard, post-metal started out when sludge bands added more post-rock characteristics to their sound. And there is an overlapping between the so called atmospheric sludge and post-metal.
Xr 1 (
talk)
23:13, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
"When Neurosis first began in 1985, few would have guessed that they would become the beacon of progressive sludge." [5] "Isis' first official release, this 1999 EP shows off a few different facets of the band's hardcore/doom/sludge/metal style" [6].The first post-metal bands are described as sludge by reliable sources. Tell me again why sludge isn't in the origins' box. Xr 1 ( talk) 12:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Well okay , but who started the genre? Or it just appeared out of thin air? I mean really how come the music background of the first bands that started the genre ISN'T the style's origins? Really tell me how. Xr 1 ( talk) 12:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
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These sources for Thy Catafalque and Lento, are they reliable? -- LordNecronus ( talk) 21:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I really think the list should be kept to 10 bands, as this is a genre article, not a list article. It really doesn't need to include every band that anyone has ever called "post-metal", just a few of the most notable examples. If anyone feels that there should be a complete list, a separate list should be constructed. As of now, I have only removed bands that did not have a reference from the list, because I didn't want to impose my own subjective view of the genre. The bands that I think should make up the list:
These top 4 are easily the most often cited members of the genre, and should all definitely be on the list.
Aside from those 8, perhaps Godflesh or Intronaut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by H2ostra ( talk • contribs) 18:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
For the moment, the list should stay as it is (with sourced additions, of course). If it gets too big, then we can create a List of post-metal bands article and move the bands there. -- LordNecronus ( talk) 21:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure Tool counts as post-metal, despite the apparent labeling of the band as such. Rather, my interpretation of the sources is that they mean to describe something that comes after metal, and while post-metal may hold similar meaning -- turning away from convention, particularly -- I'm not convinced that's what Tool is doing. The term is being used differently than is meant when we discuss the genre-term. Thoughts? – moonty ( talk) ( contribs) 03:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Add Tool to this list now, no-one has even heard of the other bands on here so it would be unencylopediac not to! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.171.128.169 ( talk) 11:51, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
The proper name for this genre is "Atmospheric Sludge metal" aka Post-metal, just saying. Not a shred of Heavy metal in this music. Also, "Heavy metal" is not specific enough, this is a sub-genre of Sludge and Post-rock. :/ 98.223.21.132 ( talk) 20:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
As surprising as it may seem, Underoath has been described as post-metal on Define the Great Line by two separate sources. As my addition of the band to the list already been reverted twice by an IP, I will give an explanation as to why Underoath qualifies. While it is true Alternative Press uses the term as a passing description, a Sputnikmusic staff reviewer uses the term twice, the second time elaborating that "Other influences creep in all throughout, such as the slow, sludgy post-metal with soaring guitar leads, extremely similar to Cult of Luna or Isis that appears in quite a few of the album's tracks..." So at least one of the sources is referring to the post-metal genre as described on this article and by this article's sources, and not as a simple passing reference. I have added quotations of the post-metal descriptions into both refs to avoid over-zealous editors in the future.-- 3family6 ( talk) 19:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
-There is a huge difference between something being post-metal and something having a post-metal influence. Underoath are metalcore and while they certainly have some post-metal influence present in their more recent works they can not be defined as a post-metal band. Meshuggah has jazz influences. Would you call Meshuggah a jazz band? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.34.216 ( talk) 19:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
-(Sorry for not formatting this correctly, I don't frequent here). First, you mentioned the Sputnik review. I frequent that site, and have read that review a couple of times. The quote is "Other influences creep in all throughout, such as the slow, sludgy post-metal with soaring guitar leads, extremely similar to Cult of Luna or Isis that appears in quite a few of the album's tracks..." While you are correct in saying that it explicitly says "post-metal" and not "post-metal influences," that sentence is still, in fact, talking about influences (Other influences creep in... such as the slow, sludgy post-metal). This is still saying that post-metal is an influence to the band's sound. Also, if we're going by Sputnik's definition, they have the band grouped under the genres of metalcore and post-hardcore. On sputnik, post-metal bands are usually categorized as "metal/post-rock," or "post-rock/hardcore," or any combination thereof, as the site does not have a formal tag for post-metal or atmospheric sludge. I understand why you would call them post-metal, and their latest effort especially has some strong influence, but they are, in the end, a metalcore band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.34.216 ( talk) 03:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Look, I'm not sure why you are so adamant that Underoath be included in this list. Why are you not making the case to add post-metal on the genre description on Underoath's actual page? Anyway, yes, a couple tracks have post-metal influence. This does not make them a post-metal band. If someone came to this page, saw Underoath on the list, and then listened to them as an example of post-metal, that would be incredibly misleading. They are a metalcore band, period. I'm actually a fan of theirs (moreso the really old stuff with Dallas Taylor) and they've never been anything but a deathcore or a metalcore band. If they release an album with more than half the tracks consisting of post-metal, then I would have no problem adding them to the list, but they've never come close to doing so. Anyway, I can't remember if it was you that undid the deletions on the page saying that a consensus hasn't been met, but shouldn't we agree that Underoath is a post-metal band BEFORE putting them on the list at all?-- Vinny ( talk) 06:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- References to INFLUENCE on a few tracks just isn't enough in my opinion. I don't know the exact parameters for including "notable bands" but I'm pretty sure Underoath does not meet them. And just listen to the songs yourself. It's clear they're talking about a couple songs on the album that are a little slower and build up a bit and have no vocals. The rest of the songs really aren't ambient.. and ambiance isn't enough to qualify a band as post-metal anyway. As the description says for the genre, "It is broadly characterized by downtuned, distorted guitar(s), heavy atmospherics, gradual evolution of song structure, and a minimal emphasis on vocals." Almost all Underoath songs focus heavily on vocals throughout the entire track, and only a couple songs have a gradual evolution of song structure. Most songs have a verse-chorus structure and don't gradually build. Listen to bands like Isis or Neurosis and then listen to Define the Great Line by Underoath. It's very clearly different, there aren't many similarities at all. Even a broad scoped genre like purely progressive metal has more similarities between the bands included in it.-- Vinny ( talk) 23:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct that they don't cite any specific tracks, my mistake. I still implore the use of common sense in this case, however. Everyone knows Underoath is not a post-metal band. Most reviewers make a bunch of references about how a band incorporates things from other genres only as a way to EMPHASIZE a point. They're not actually calling the band post-metal. Incorporating post-metal melodies and ambiance on one album does not qualify them as a post-metal band. Post-metal has been argued in this article itself that it's not even a genre and that this article only exists because certain bands go barely outside the boundaries in EVERY way, and thus only having one or two qualities from post-metal shouldn't be enough to define them as a post-metal band. It's also been argued that the list on this page is growing too large. Again, the list is for "NOTABLE" post-metal bands. These are bands that have a long history of influence and notoriety in the post-metal genre. Every band on the list has "post-metal" in their genre section on their respective pages. Underoath does not satisfy those requirements.
By the way.. I noticed you listed grindcore and emo on the Define the Great Line page... I'm sorry but.. what? As I said before, I just think you're being a little too adamant and grasping at straws. The review you cited doesn't even say they're grindcore or emo, it says they find the ground BETWEEN the genres. Meaning.. they are part of neither genre. There's absolutely no way a band can be post-metal, emo, Christian, and grindcore.. it's just impossible. Grindcore is defined by short, 2-3 minute tracks that are very aggressive and violent.. this is the complete opposite of post-metal/ambient where 10 minute tracks are the norm.-- Vinny ( talk) 02:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Just pointing out that most genre pages with NOTABLE bands listed on them should be short and concise and feature the defining and most influential bands in that genre. In this case bands like Isis and Neurosis would definitely be there, as well as most of the other bands listed already. Anyway, I agree with waiting for another editor breaking this tie unless too much time passes.-- Vinny ( talk) 13:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
How exactly do you mix post-rock (an approach) with another genre? Apparently everything that features repetitive high-register guitar riffs drowned in reverb is "post-rock influenced" these days. And as if that wasn't enough, people actually use the post- prefix wrongly to label these supposed fusions. Furthermore, sludge is usually hardcore with doom influence, not the other way around. Most sludge bands (including Neurosis) are considered more hardcore than metal, so why don't you use the post-hardcore label to describe these atmo/prog sludge bands instead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrhaa ( talk • contribs) 11:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I'm foreseeing a big dispute coming with the Deftones addition. So I checked the sources, and they look reliable, and though the term "post-metal" isn't used, two of its synonyms, "metalgaze" and "shoegaze metal," are used. The biggest problem with these refs is that they refer to only one album, and per the Underoath discussion above on this talkpage, one album is not really good for listing the band as a representative of post-metal (I'm personally not completely at ease with this, but that was the consensus reached in the above discussion).-- 3family6 ( talk) 01:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Uhh, I was under the impression that Deftones (a band I enjoy greatly) qualified more as alternative rock/metal, which encompasses a wide range of bands, most with similar qualities (Godsmack, Helmet, Therapy?, etc) so I don't think Deftones should qualify. I'm mildly surprised that the Japanese band Boris isn't listed, though, further discussion maybe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.77.0.187 ( talk) 10:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
We now have a list class article for the post-metal bands: " List of post-metal bands". Please move/use necessary info and references from here or the post-metal bands articles on the list. Also add post-metal bands you know (with ref/source it will be better). The list is new and needs a lot of work. Please contribute. Thanks. Winter Gaze ( talk) 12:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the following text from the article:
-- Nite-Sirk ( talk) 21:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
The post-metal article is currently claiming that the term "metalgaze" is synonymous with post-metal. The source provided, a Pitchfork album review, reads: "For Broadrick, his brilliant Jesu project (a kind of epic and melodic, shoegaze-glazed Godflesh) has been like the elder master responding to the work of his students (primarily the whole Neurosis-Isis-Pelican post-rock metalgaze school) and in turn, blowing open the whole genre, yet again." Putting post-rock next to metalgaze doesn't mean the writer is suggesting these two terms are interchangeable, which is what's being implied in this encyclopedic entry. Anyone who believes this sentence is suggesting that these two terms are synonymous probably also believes it's proper English to say "H2O water" or "cat feline".
A good example of what a source should say in this situation would be the following citation for post-metal being synonymous with atmospheric metal. The source provided, a pdf document of some sort, reads: "Neurosis, one of the pioneers of experimental metal (also often referred to as atmospheric metal or post metal, in reference to the term post rock)..." This source explicitly and directly supports the claim made in this encyclopedic entry.
See also: Wikipedia:No original research, which reads, "Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research..." Fezmar9 ( talk) 18:31, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
So all these things said, i'll put Shoegaze metal and metalgaze back, i don't have time to cite all the sources properly so i'll let it up to some editor here. Trascendence ( talk) 03:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Whether that alone is sufficient, I don't know. Madreterra ( talk) 03:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is not necessary to find a source which explicitly states that post-metal has sludge metal origins, in order to put sludge metal genre into the "other topics" section (not stylistic origins part). If we look at bands such as Isis, Pelican, Neurosis or even Jesu, we can say their music mostly have sludge elements (which has been also stated in their own articles). It is that obvious. And even if we needed a citation to put a genre in the regarding part, why wasn't the "drone metal" genre sourced at first? The source necessity for such a detail just seems like an exaggeration (unless the claimed genre is controversial for the article, of course.) - Myxomatosis75 ( talk) 14:54, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone see a connection between the two? this genre seems to be a fusion of certain alt/indie rock genres(like shoegazing and post-rock) with metal, while alternative metal originally referred to bands that fused alt rock/grunge with metal, before becoming a sort of blanket term for nu metal (due to the grunge influences in that genre), and two of the bands mentioned (Helmet and Tool) were, and still are classed as alternative metal. I call the big one bitey 10:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
All the bands labeled as Post-Metal here seem to be Sludge based, but what about the other Metalgaze bands? There is also alternative "dream metal" along the lines of Deftones, Blackengaze like Alcest, some Agalloch, and Cold Body Radiation, and the atmospheric djent like Cloudkicker and Chimp Spanner. Are these considered to be the same genre as Isis and Neurosis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.6.22.11 ( talk) 06:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
this is "original research", so, following my other recent additions, i'm going to just throw a section in here and let other people work it out. i'll point out, though, that i lived through the popularization of post-rock while living in ottawa (halfway between montreal and toronto) in the late 90s and early 00s.
while i'm not denying the existence of the whole sludge/grind thing, i don't think that post-metal (as we understand the term) is properly derived from it - or at least not entirely. the way i remember it is that post-metal was simply a heavier variant of post-rock. that is to say that a lot of kids into various types of hardcore listened to a bunch of gybe! records and got a bunch of ideas from it. then, the kids that were into post-rock picked up on it, largely as a reaction to the predictability of post-rock during the period. it was a breath of fresh air within the onset of a kind of monotony. post-metal consequently has a parallel development with a clade of electronic post-rock acts (65daysofstatic, god is an astronaut, pivot) that likewise developed out of a kind of boredom with the rules of post-rock.
what does that have to do with reinventing metal? it doesn't have anything to do with that at all. now, maybe there's a kind of thinking centered around the development of black and doom metal that does go through this process of reinvention. i don't really know a lot about black metal. if such a process happened, it was very distinct from what post-metal (as we know it) was.
the pelican quote in the article gets it right. what that means is that the stylistic origins section should include something about (post-)hardcore, and maybe remove shoegazing as redundant - we don't need both gaze and post-rock, as the gaze influences comes in *via* the post-rock one. you can note that post-rock lists shoegaze in it's origin section. it also explains why so many people are arguing about this: they're conflating two very different things that in reality had only a very small overlap in listenership. the first is the rise of a new kind of metal, from grind through to black. while that might conform best to the philosophical idea underlying "post-metal", nobody that listens to it thinks of it like that, and so the article strikes those people as silly. the second refers to a desire by hardcore kids to give symphonic post-rock a bit of a deeper kick, which was grasped on to mostly by hardcore kids and post-rock fans.
so, this page shouldn't be deleted, but it should be separated into these two different ideas, one derived from the merger of post-rock and hardcore and the other from the reinvention of metal. stated bluntly, "post-metal" as we know it is just "post rock with riffs", while the sludge and black streams of metal went through a reinvention that could more fairly be term "post metal". the colloquial usage does NOT conform to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.93 ( talk) 02:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
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@ Mashaunix: So tell me, what does that image shows us the distinction between post-metal and other metal forms? Visual Art? Plenty of metal bands use it on their shows, and such eerie, forest-y background is a commom trope in metal in general. Including background imagery is a very commom practice on concerts overall, and this image in particular show us nothing distinctive. It's just wasted space and bytes. ABC paulista ( talk) 15:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I see some people here saying Godflesh doesn't belong in this article. I don't have a huge say in the race, but I did do 80% of the Godflesh article in a rewrite this year, and in doing so found many sources for it being important to post-metal. You can find a list here CelestialWeevil ( talk) 20:31, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
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Before criticizing the genre name as if the subgenre doesn't exist at all, consider the terms "post-" and "progressive" used in other art media such as post-modernism and post-impressionism. It is entirely possible to still create an impressionist painting, but it's also possible to create a post-impressionist painting. Essentially "post-" is a way of saying "Uses its suffix as a springboard but deconstructs the original style using other typically unrelated influences or techniques in order to explore new unique avenues that would not otherwise be part of the initial genre." Meanwhile, "progressive" typically refers to deconstruction of the genre using its own materials for further experimentation of the genre itself. Post-metal uses metal as a foundation, but deconstructs the sounds from metal and mixes it with otherwise typically unrelated genres to explore what else can be done with it. Prog-metal is still firmly rooted within metal but experiments with metal's own sounds and styles. Frankly I'd point to there being very little difference between progressive metal and technical metal, before pointing the finger at prog and post.
Examples, using architecture:
205.250.211.218 ( talk) 22:41, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
This genre doesn't exist. It's just made up to (for whatever reason) further categorize bands that already have genres. The 'criticism' topic on the article offers no arguments why it should exist, just that a lot of people think it shouldn't... Evanmontegarde 22:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)evanmontegarde
I am a music reviewer for Harm.us and I would be hesitant to create post-metal as a genre. It seems too pretentious too me as a label and further obfuscates already ambiguous and hotly contested genre distinctions. There is no common linkage to these bands. There is no popular or consensual impetus that warrants the creation of this page. I am a music critic by trade and even I believe that this category is merely a ruse to stroke the egos of music elitists so they can pontificate and point to this article as a verification of their outlandish fantasies. 203.214.47.30 13:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
To something to be Post-, the genre before it has to die. Metal is a thriving genre. Post-Rock is also non-existent. Makiyu 19:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The guy from Isis did not coin the term "thinking man's metal", nor has it anything to do with post-metal. Queensryche used that term to market their genre of progressive metal years ago. Also, something I'd like to bring to the table: What exactly is the difference between "avant-garde metal" and "post-metal" (besides the fact that both "genres" use pretentious and abstract terms to identify themselves)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.38.41 ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
While I am in favor of the use of the term "post-metal," I don't see the reason for having Kayo Dot and maudlin of the Well in the list of notable bands, as they already fit so perfectly into the "avantgarde metal" genre. I don't think that they share the similar sound of ISIS or Cult of Luna. Also I would say the same thing for Boris because (as far as I know) they don't have any releases that sound similar to the rest of the bands. Brownishleaf 13:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have cleaned out the "Notable bands" section again, and I think it should stay limited to about 10 bands (If you think a different band should be substituted, please make a case for it) The existing list was (with a ! after the ones I removed):
Battle of Mice was unsourced, Godflesh is generally not included in most accounts I have seen of the genre, Red Sparowes and Russian Circles are post-rock (and Russian Circles has already been discussed), Sunn O))) is Drone metal, Thy Catafalque does not have the necessary basis in sludge metal (and I do not believe that they are notable enough to be included in such a section), and Tool is a progressive metal/rock band. As was said previously, in an article of a genre as disputed as this one, I do not belive that we should be including bands that are borderline at best in the "notable bands" section.
On a different note, I didn't edit it in, though I feel like The Ocean Collective has more claim to this list than, say, Burst and maybe Callisto (in terms of genre) and Mouth of the Architect or Rosetta (in terms of notability). H2ostra ( talk) 05:16, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I've been bold and cut down the list to the most notable exponents of the genre. Many of them were redlinked, or only labelled post-metal by a stretch. I feel any more additions should be more carefully considered, and possibly discussed here. However, for legacy's sake, here's the list as it stands before the edit:
I can't claim to be an absolute authority on the genre; but niche/redlinked bands don't truly contribute to the encyclopaedic or informative nature of the article. Seegoon 13:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Um OK. Anyway, new rule should be enforced here: don't link to redlinked bands. It's a list of notable bands, and if they're notable, they're likely to have their own article. I know this means the removal of some archetypal bands, but until they have their own pages the links are useless. Seegoon 19:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
They're often referred to as post-metal, but it's hard to find a definitive reference to such. Any ideas? Though they are post-rock, no doubt, they also seem to fit post-metal as well. That's the trouble with post-metal, it's often very close to post-rock, and is thusly difficult to classify without at least some crossover. Thoughts? Moonty 20:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I truly believe that some views expressed above are not shared by people who consider themselves fans of the mentioned bands. If anyone feels it will contribute, I could gladly assemble a list of reviews/interviews (and perhaps band biographies) that clearly and obviously associate many of these bands, and that suggest the emergence of a common genre they are all a part of. Here is a quick sample from About.com's Heavy Metal section on Mouth of the Architect's Time and Withering album, second sentence:
http://heavymetal.about.com/od/cdreviews/fr/mouthofarchitec.htm
These kinds of references are easy to find and almost obligatory on sites that regularly encounter and review this type of material, and I will gladly draw up more such references if anyone thinks they would be useful. Also, if you check for any Isis albums on Amazon.com you will find many of the listed bands there as well. You can also read opinions at Isisboard.com (Isis fan community) and see that a large group of people associate these bands in a way that is well-represented by this article.
As for Harm.us, I looked at that site, and they only even review two of the listed bands (Callisto and Mouth of the Architect), with nothing at all on Isis/Neurosis. And, even those two reviews were from an outsider perspective of a generally mainstream metal oriented site, obviously unfamiliar with this common sound that regular fans generally seem well aware of. I respect your site's metal credentials generally speaking, but Harm.us is not familiar these kinds of bands.
In general, I think this article is at least well founded and that it clarifies the standing of these bands, rather than obscures it. -glenstein aka Abbenm 76.179.26.12 04:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Was there something wrong with my line 47 edit that got removed? I'm guessing you just reverted to the version before my edit, because you also restored a misspelled version of the word "reinstatement". There should be some sort of message there however to discourage the addition of bands to the list, and the present message seems to address this only indirectly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbenm ( talk • contribs) 01:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I can see there's a fair amount of back-and-forth here regarding the validity of this genre, and its labeling as such. To work towards a really decent, solid yay or nay, there are some pertinent questions which need answering, from both the pro- and anti-labeling camps. I'll tell you now that I am for the use of the label, so expect a bias in that direction. However, any conceptually adequate, complete argument against it will also bear my full consideration. Here are the important questions - feel free to add more, or respond in whatever constructive manner you see fit.
1. Is there a prominent and cohesive enough musical movement to justify the use of one label for all bands?
2. Do the people using the labels carry enough reputability for us to distil the term from their use?
2b. Bearing that in mind, do said bands self-identify as "post-metal"?
3. Why, among all the myriad names attributed to this genre, is "post-metal" chosen?
I'm sure there are more which I've missed - add any you see fit.
Seegoon
19:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I know this is a bizarre concept, but I'm going to respond to my own questions and hope you guys will follow suit.
1. I reckon so. Beginning with Isis and Cult of Luna, we've seen a legion of soundalike bands formed in the past five or so years. Although few of them have achieved the reputation of Cult of Luna or Isis, their influence is clear. I'll name a few: Pelican, Tides, Rosetta, Russian Circles, Fall Time, Callisto, Finger of God, Jakob, Red Sparowes, Mouth of the Architect, Khoma, The Ocean, Transmission0...
2. This is one of the most contentious issues, I'll admit that freely. However, in our sources we can see New York Times journalism and magazines such as Terrorizer and Rock Sound have begun to take it up.
2b. This is another issue. However, it is rare for any band from any musical movement to volunteer themselves into a fixed genre. That said, I've seen Isis promoted as post-metal more than once. I'm talking about a fixed decision by their distributors and record companies. A sticker on the cover of either SGNL>05 or Celestial described them as "post-metal alchemists", and a
Southern Records promo sheet also uses the term. I haven't dug around for other bands so much, as Isis' page is a pet project of mine and I focus my attention on that.
3. Another hard-to-answer question. Simply put - it's the only one on which there appears to be some form of consensus. You see "instro-metal" and suchlike banded around, but if you mention post-metal to someone, they tend to know what you're talking about. Likewise, it implies some form of progression from metal, which I believe is a fair piece of conjecture. If you look at post-rock, it isn't so much a direct progression of rock, but an altered perspective on what came before it, over time morphing from one thing into another.
I know these aren't all great points, and I haven't completely convinced myself. However, I hope it'll spur some creative discussion on.
Seegoon
19:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The whole creation of the Atmospheric Sludge Metal/Post-Metal is wishful thinking. This whole school of bands who ripped off Neurosis and Godflesh are not Metal atall. To be begin we need to first need to all accept that both founding artists came from “Core” backgrounds and arrived at their sound without influence from Metal. Before claims of “Guitar Tone” get posted you should be aware and hopefully accept the fact that “Heavy” music exists and sometimes it isn’t actually Metal. They have cited their influences many times infact never implying any Metal let alone Doom but rather experimental music and industrial. Lately post-rock has become a even more prominent part of this school of post-hardcore bands. Not alone that but the big players in the school of bands who did infact rip them off also had core backgrounds.
Cult Of Luna’s previous incarnation was a hardcore band. Isis used to be hardcore and their songwriter runs a hardcore label. Neurosis used to be hardcore. Callisto fashion themselves as hardcore and infact share a lyrical theme of Christianity which is very prominent in a number of hardcore bands. Buried Inside call themselves a hardcore band. Pelican members (apart from one) were all involved in “core”.
This page needs to be deleted
-- Lysergix 10:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Does this actually bring anything to the page? This is one reviewers opinion, and as far as i am concerned and my friends that like post-metal are concerned, live performances of post metal are certainly not boring. I do understand that this is just opinion, and surely citing a reviewer (12) cannot be justification for adding this. What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.177.5 ( talk • contribs)
These two sentenses seem to be in Controversion
If Oceanic (2002) was already post-metal than Panopticon (2004) was not prime -- A4 ( talk) 09:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I dont think Ufomammut should be in that list, it's straight up stoner doom not post-metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.149.249.161 ( talk) 05:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Hard to say that after the release of "Eve" by Ufomammut in 2010. 69.237.149.106 ( talk) 01:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, the "stylistic origins" box is out of control.
Let's pare it down to the sources discussed in the article. So Aaron Turner says the prime forebears are Flying Luttenbachers, Melvins, Godflesh, and Neurosis. Flying Luttenbachers are a
punk jazz group, Melvins and Neurosis are
sludge metal groups, and Godflesh is an
industrial metal group. Actually, Godflesh could also be considered sludge, so let's just cut it down to punk jazz and sludge. I guess we're considering Helmet to be post-metal, and they're a
noise rock group, so that gets added. If Tool counts, they always cite King Crimson, so we'll add
progressive rock.
Seems to me like this is enough. If we're going to add some other stylistic origin, I think some source or argument should be presented.
Shoegazing should be added, too, given the prevalence of the "metalgaze" label.
Aryder779 (
talk)
18:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Most of the bands considered to be Post-Metal are usually tagged also as Sludge. From what I've read and heard, post-metal started out when sludge bands added more post-rock characteristics to their sound. And there is an overlapping between the so called atmospheric sludge and post-metal.
Xr 1 (
talk)
23:13, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
"When Neurosis first began in 1985, few would have guessed that they would become the beacon of progressive sludge." [5] "Isis' first official release, this 1999 EP shows off a few different facets of the band's hardcore/doom/sludge/metal style" [6].The first post-metal bands are described as sludge by reliable sources. Tell me again why sludge isn't in the origins' box. Xr 1 ( talk) 12:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Well okay , but who started the genre? Or it just appeared out of thin air? I mean really how come the music background of the first bands that started the genre ISN'T the style's origins? Really tell me how. Xr 1 ( talk) 12:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
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These sources for Thy Catafalque and Lento, are they reliable? -- LordNecronus ( talk) 21:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I really think the list should be kept to 10 bands, as this is a genre article, not a list article. It really doesn't need to include every band that anyone has ever called "post-metal", just a few of the most notable examples. If anyone feels that there should be a complete list, a separate list should be constructed. As of now, I have only removed bands that did not have a reference from the list, because I didn't want to impose my own subjective view of the genre. The bands that I think should make up the list:
These top 4 are easily the most often cited members of the genre, and should all definitely be on the list.
Aside from those 8, perhaps Godflesh or Intronaut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by H2ostra ( talk • contribs) 18:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
For the moment, the list should stay as it is (with sourced additions, of course). If it gets too big, then we can create a List of post-metal bands article and move the bands there. -- LordNecronus ( talk) 21:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure Tool counts as post-metal, despite the apparent labeling of the band as such. Rather, my interpretation of the sources is that they mean to describe something that comes after metal, and while post-metal may hold similar meaning -- turning away from convention, particularly -- I'm not convinced that's what Tool is doing. The term is being used differently than is meant when we discuss the genre-term. Thoughts? – moonty ( talk) ( contribs) 03:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Add Tool to this list now, no-one has even heard of the other bands on here so it would be unencylopediac not to! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.171.128.169 ( talk) 11:51, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
The proper name for this genre is "Atmospheric Sludge metal" aka Post-metal, just saying. Not a shred of Heavy metal in this music. Also, "Heavy metal" is not specific enough, this is a sub-genre of Sludge and Post-rock. :/ 98.223.21.132 ( talk) 20:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
As surprising as it may seem, Underoath has been described as post-metal on Define the Great Line by two separate sources. As my addition of the band to the list already been reverted twice by an IP, I will give an explanation as to why Underoath qualifies. While it is true Alternative Press uses the term as a passing description, a Sputnikmusic staff reviewer uses the term twice, the second time elaborating that "Other influences creep in all throughout, such as the slow, sludgy post-metal with soaring guitar leads, extremely similar to Cult of Luna or Isis that appears in quite a few of the album's tracks..." So at least one of the sources is referring to the post-metal genre as described on this article and by this article's sources, and not as a simple passing reference. I have added quotations of the post-metal descriptions into both refs to avoid over-zealous editors in the future.-- 3family6 ( talk) 19:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
-There is a huge difference between something being post-metal and something having a post-metal influence. Underoath are metalcore and while they certainly have some post-metal influence present in their more recent works they can not be defined as a post-metal band. Meshuggah has jazz influences. Would you call Meshuggah a jazz band? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.34.216 ( talk) 19:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
-(Sorry for not formatting this correctly, I don't frequent here). First, you mentioned the Sputnik review. I frequent that site, and have read that review a couple of times. The quote is "Other influences creep in all throughout, such as the slow, sludgy post-metal with soaring guitar leads, extremely similar to Cult of Luna or Isis that appears in quite a few of the album's tracks..." While you are correct in saying that it explicitly says "post-metal" and not "post-metal influences," that sentence is still, in fact, talking about influences (Other influences creep in... such as the slow, sludgy post-metal). This is still saying that post-metal is an influence to the band's sound. Also, if we're going by Sputnik's definition, they have the band grouped under the genres of metalcore and post-hardcore. On sputnik, post-metal bands are usually categorized as "metal/post-rock," or "post-rock/hardcore," or any combination thereof, as the site does not have a formal tag for post-metal or atmospheric sludge. I understand why you would call them post-metal, and their latest effort especially has some strong influence, but they are, in the end, a metalcore band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.34.216 ( talk) 03:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Look, I'm not sure why you are so adamant that Underoath be included in this list. Why are you not making the case to add post-metal on the genre description on Underoath's actual page? Anyway, yes, a couple tracks have post-metal influence. This does not make them a post-metal band. If someone came to this page, saw Underoath on the list, and then listened to them as an example of post-metal, that would be incredibly misleading. They are a metalcore band, period. I'm actually a fan of theirs (moreso the really old stuff with Dallas Taylor) and they've never been anything but a deathcore or a metalcore band. If they release an album with more than half the tracks consisting of post-metal, then I would have no problem adding them to the list, but they've never come close to doing so. Anyway, I can't remember if it was you that undid the deletions on the page saying that a consensus hasn't been met, but shouldn't we agree that Underoath is a post-metal band BEFORE putting them on the list at all?-- Vinny ( talk) 06:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- References to INFLUENCE on a few tracks just isn't enough in my opinion. I don't know the exact parameters for including "notable bands" but I'm pretty sure Underoath does not meet them. And just listen to the songs yourself. It's clear they're talking about a couple songs on the album that are a little slower and build up a bit and have no vocals. The rest of the songs really aren't ambient.. and ambiance isn't enough to qualify a band as post-metal anyway. As the description says for the genre, "It is broadly characterized by downtuned, distorted guitar(s), heavy atmospherics, gradual evolution of song structure, and a minimal emphasis on vocals." Almost all Underoath songs focus heavily on vocals throughout the entire track, and only a couple songs have a gradual evolution of song structure. Most songs have a verse-chorus structure and don't gradually build. Listen to bands like Isis or Neurosis and then listen to Define the Great Line by Underoath. It's very clearly different, there aren't many similarities at all. Even a broad scoped genre like purely progressive metal has more similarities between the bands included in it.-- Vinny ( talk) 23:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct that they don't cite any specific tracks, my mistake. I still implore the use of common sense in this case, however. Everyone knows Underoath is not a post-metal band. Most reviewers make a bunch of references about how a band incorporates things from other genres only as a way to EMPHASIZE a point. They're not actually calling the band post-metal. Incorporating post-metal melodies and ambiance on one album does not qualify them as a post-metal band. Post-metal has been argued in this article itself that it's not even a genre and that this article only exists because certain bands go barely outside the boundaries in EVERY way, and thus only having one or two qualities from post-metal shouldn't be enough to define them as a post-metal band. It's also been argued that the list on this page is growing too large. Again, the list is for "NOTABLE" post-metal bands. These are bands that have a long history of influence and notoriety in the post-metal genre. Every band on the list has "post-metal" in their genre section on their respective pages. Underoath does not satisfy those requirements.
By the way.. I noticed you listed grindcore and emo on the Define the Great Line page... I'm sorry but.. what? As I said before, I just think you're being a little too adamant and grasping at straws. The review you cited doesn't even say they're grindcore or emo, it says they find the ground BETWEEN the genres. Meaning.. they are part of neither genre. There's absolutely no way a band can be post-metal, emo, Christian, and grindcore.. it's just impossible. Grindcore is defined by short, 2-3 minute tracks that are very aggressive and violent.. this is the complete opposite of post-metal/ambient where 10 minute tracks are the norm.-- Vinny ( talk) 02:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- Just pointing out that most genre pages with NOTABLE bands listed on them should be short and concise and feature the defining and most influential bands in that genre. In this case bands like Isis and Neurosis would definitely be there, as well as most of the other bands listed already. Anyway, I agree with waiting for another editor breaking this tie unless too much time passes.-- Vinny ( talk) 13:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
How exactly do you mix post-rock (an approach) with another genre? Apparently everything that features repetitive high-register guitar riffs drowned in reverb is "post-rock influenced" these days. And as if that wasn't enough, people actually use the post- prefix wrongly to label these supposed fusions. Furthermore, sludge is usually hardcore with doom influence, not the other way around. Most sludge bands (including Neurosis) are considered more hardcore than metal, so why don't you use the post-hardcore label to describe these atmo/prog sludge bands instead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrhaa ( talk • contribs) 11:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I'm foreseeing a big dispute coming with the Deftones addition. So I checked the sources, and they look reliable, and though the term "post-metal" isn't used, two of its synonyms, "metalgaze" and "shoegaze metal," are used. The biggest problem with these refs is that they refer to only one album, and per the Underoath discussion above on this talkpage, one album is not really good for listing the band as a representative of post-metal (I'm personally not completely at ease with this, but that was the consensus reached in the above discussion).-- 3family6 ( talk) 01:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Uhh, I was under the impression that Deftones (a band I enjoy greatly) qualified more as alternative rock/metal, which encompasses a wide range of bands, most with similar qualities (Godsmack, Helmet, Therapy?, etc) so I don't think Deftones should qualify. I'm mildly surprised that the Japanese band Boris isn't listed, though, further discussion maybe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.77.0.187 ( talk) 10:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
We now have a list class article for the post-metal bands: " List of post-metal bands". Please move/use necessary info and references from here or the post-metal bands articles on the list. Also add post-metal bands you know (with ref/source it will be better). The list is new and needs a lot of work. Please contribute. Thanks. Winter Gaze ( talk) 12:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the following text from the article:
-- Nite-Sirk ( talk) 21:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
The post-metal article is currently claiming that the term "metalgaze" is synonymous with post-metal. The source provided, a Pitchfork album review, reads: "For Broadrick, his brilliant Jesu project (a kind of epic and melodic, shoegaze-glazed Godflesh) has been like the elder master responding to the work of his students (primarily the whole Neurosis-Isis-Pelican post-rock metalgaze school) and in turn, blowing open the whole genre, yet again." Putting post-rock next to metalgaze doesn't mean the writer is suggesting these two terms are interchangeable, which is what's being implied in this encyclopedic entry. Anyone who believes this sentence is suggesting that these two terms are synonymous probably also believes it's proper English to say "H2O water" or "cat feline".
A good example of what a source should say in this situation would be the following citation for post-metal being synonymous with atmospheric metal. The source provided, a pdf document of some sort, reads: "Neurosis, one of the pioneers of experimental metal (also often referred to as atmospheric metal or post metal, in reference to the term post rock)..." This source explicitly and directly supports the claim made in this encyclopedic entry.
See also: Wikipedia:No original research, which reads, "Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research..." Fezmar9 ( talk) 18:31, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
So all these things said, i'll put Shoegaze metal and metalgaze back, i don't have time to cite all the sources properly so i'll let it up to some editor here. Trascendence ( talk) 03:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Whether that alone is sufficient, I don't know. Madreterra ( talk) 03:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is not necessary to find a source which explicitly states that post-metal has sludge metal origins, in order to put sludge metal genre into the "other topics" section (not stylistic origins part). If we look at bands such as Isis, Pelican, Neurosis or even Jesu, we can say their music mostly have sludge elements (which has been also stated in their own articles). It is that obvious. And even if we needed a citation to put a genre in the regarding part, why wasn't the "drone metal" genre sourced at first? The source necessity for such a detail just seems like an exaggeration (unless the claimed genre is controversial for the article, of course.) - Myxomatosis75 ( talk) 14:54, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone see a connection between the two? this genre seems to be a fusion of certain alt/indie rock genres(like shoegazing and post-rock) with metal, while alternative metal originally referred to bands that fused alt rock/grunge with metal, before becoming a sort of blanket term for nu metal (due to the grunge influences in that genre), and two of the bands mentioned (Helmet and Tool) were, and still are classed as alternative metal. I call the big one bitey 10:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
All the bands labeled as Post-Metal here seem to be Sludge based, but what about the other Metalgaze bands? There is also alternative "dream metal" along the lines of Deftones, Blackengaze like Alcest, some Agalloch, and Cold Body Radiation, and the atmospheric djent like Cloudkicker and Chimp Spanner. Are these considered to be the same genre as Isis and Neurosis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.6.22.11 ( talk) 06:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
this is "original research", so, following my other recent additions, i'm going to just throw a section in here and let other people work it out. i'll point out, though, that i lived through the popularization of post-rock while living in ottawa (halfway between montreal and toronto) in the late 90s and early 00s.
while i'm not denying the existence of the whole sludge/grind thing, i don't think that post-metal (as we understand the term) is properly derived from it - or at least not entirely. the way i remember it is that post-metal was simply a heavier variant of post-rock. that is to say that a lot of kids into various types of hardcore listened to a bunch of gybe! records and got a bunch of ideas from it. then, the kids that were into post-rock picked up on it, largely as a reaction to the predictability of post-rock during the period. it was a breath of fresh air within the onset of a kind of monotony. post-metal consequently has a parallel development with a clade of electronic post-rock acts (65daysofstatic, god is an astronaut, pivot) that likewise developed out of a kind of boredom with the rules of post-rock.
what does that have to do with reinventing metal? it doesn't have anything to do with that at all. now, maybe there's a kind of thinking centered around the development of black and doom metal that does go through this process of reinvention. i don't really know a lot about black metal. if such a process happened, it was very distinct from what post-metal (as we know it) was.
the pelican quote in the article gets it right. what that means is that the stylistic origins section should include something about (post-)hardcore, and maybe remove shoegazing as redundant - we don't need both gaze and post-rock, as the gaze influences comes in *via* the post-rock one. you can note that post-rock lists shoegaze in it's origin section. it also explains why so many people are arguing about this: they're conflating two very different things that in reality had only a very small overlap in listenership. the first is the rise of a new kind of metal, from grind through to black. while that might conform best to the philosophical idea underlying "post-metal", nobody that listens to it thinks of it like that, and so the article strikes those people as silly. the second refers to a desire by hardcore kids to give symphonic post-rock a bit of a deeper kick, which was grasped on to mostly by hardcore kids and post-rock fans.
so, this page shouldn't be deleted, but it should be separated into these two different ideas, one derived from the merger of post-rock and hardcore and the other from the reinvention of metal. stated bluntly, "post-metal" as we know it is just "post rock with riffs", while the sludge and black streams of metal went through a reinvention that could more fairly be term "post metal". the colloquial usage does NOT conform to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.93 ( talk) 02:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
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@ Mashaunix: So tell me, what does that image shows us the distinction between post-metal and other metal forms? Visual Art? Plenty of metal bands use it on their shows, and such eerie, forest-y background is a commom trope in metal in general. Including background imagery is a very commom practice on concerts overall, and this image in particular show us nothing distinctive. It's just wasted space and bytes. ABC paulista ( talk) 15:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I see some people here saying Godflesh doesn't belong in this article. I don't have a huge say in the race, but I did do 80% of the Godflesh article in a rewrite this year, and in doing so found many sources for it being important to post-metal. You can find a list here CelestialWeevil ( talk) 20:31, 10 June 2018 (UTC)