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According to the article, "[Concatenation] is more commonly written as "a"&"b"="ab", using the ampersand." Yet Concatenation and Comparison of programming languages (strings) both say + is more common. I'm removing the sentence. -- 192.235.8.2 20:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
<sub>2</sub>
and <sup>5</sup>
can be a real PITA. I have a lot of friends on Dreamwidth.org, and if you want any HTML code in a comment you have to type it yourself. I keep the sub- and superscript digits, and lots of other special characters, on a handy page on my desktop to copy-and-paste whenever I want. The Unicode page
Superscripts and Subscripts, Range: 2070–209F has all these and more. --
Thnidu (
talk)
02:18, 9 June 2017 (UTC)A personal tripod page is not a very good source. Maybe this book is better, even though it looks like it may have gotten the info from that same page. What about other sources? Anybody have? Dicklyon ( talk) 17:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I think there are three use for minus rather than 2.
x−y meaning the result of y subtracted from x −x meaning the result of negating the value of x, i.e. x subtracted from 0. -123 the negative number 123. It has the same value as the negation operator applied to 123 but is a different concept. I'll stick this in if nobody has a better idea.
Also a computery side might be an idea too. APL has negative numbers e.g. −123 separate from negated integers and IEEE has -0. Dmcq ( talk) 18:43, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
In -5, the minus sign is part of a numeral.
In -x, the minus sign is a unary operator.
In 7 - 5, the minus sign is a binary operator.
They are different. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the minus sign has the above three uses. Why don't we just agree that it (the minus sign) is a heteronym? I think that in the above list, you missed the fact that -5 is not only a number, but could also be an expression. In that case you have (the weird looking) -5=-5, which means in English: The unary operator acting on positive 5 results in the number negative 5. To add to your argument, the fact that there are three different meanings to the minus sign makes the statement -5^2=-25 less confusing to new math students. Gene Klein Mortgagemeister ( talk) 18:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, the minus sign has two meanings, not three. Although there is a mathematical entity with the value of negative five, our number system happens to denote it using the expression (unary-minus) (numeral-five), because it doesn't have any more convenient way to denote it! This is analogous to how the value satisfying 3x-1=0 is denoted by the expression (numeral-one) (binary-divide) (numeral-three) [usually in vertical form with the divide represented by a horizontal line], and the positive value satisfying x^2=2 is denoted by the expression (square-root) (numeral-two). Mathematically, each of these exists as an atomic concept; notationally, each is represented as an expression. Joule36e5 ( talk) 02:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
I have made an edit regarding the unary minus and PEMDAS. The unary minus is not part of PEDMDAS, however everyone seems to just go with the flow her and give it the same place as the subtraction operation. Some said: "However in some programming languages and Excel in particular, unary operators bind strongest" Can this be proven? Are there specs for this? I don't work for Excel and there is a good reason for that, but it would be nice to back this up.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.65.71.211 ( talk) 19:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be some idea that it is good pedagogy to say subtract, negative or opposite of for the different versions of minus. Also that they should put in raised minus or plus signs before the numbers to show they are negative or positive. I think this is just being stupid and them wanting to cause trouble again and I can't see it helping children but I guess it should be in the article. I just feel so disgusted by it that I can't actually bear to write anything in the actual article itself about it. Flaming teachers can't count but want to stick in more stupidities to cover their inadequacies by making the children unable to do anything is my thoughts on it.
Also perhaps a note about typography might be reasonable saying the unary form has no space but when spacing expressions the binary + and - operations have spaces put round them. Dmcq ( talk) 18:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the objection is here. Right now the minus sign is a "three-valued" heteronym. Are you under the impression that this is NOT confusing? One symbol meaning three different things? Moreover, the minus sign as a negative and the minus sign as the unary minus gets the same answer if arithmetic is limited to multiplication, division, addition and subtraction. However, include exponents and then you do not get the same answer. Tell me that isn't confusing! Mortgagemeister ( talk) 22:19, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
IAATeacher, and I don't want to shield children (or adult students) from heteronyms either. I just want to teach them that the minus sign IS a heteronym. This way when they are shown -5^2, they will not say (or think to themselves) "negative five squared" and be confused when the answer is -25. Mortgagemeister ( talk) 02:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Well - if one writes it as −52 , tell me what you think the result should be?
wrt to my "three-valued heteronym", The article already notes the three uses of the minus sign. If it doesn't call it a heteronym, well a rose by any other name and all that. Gotta tell you though, I find the binary minus "generalization" not so conceptually rich and hardly "perilous".
I mean if 5-3=2 is it really so deep that 5.2-3.2=2.0?
Mortgagemeister (
talk)
10:43, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, though Melchoir gets the right answer, the proximity of the 5 and the 2 has nothing to do with it. It's a convention. It could have gone either way. But by now, the matter is settled (except on a few calculators and in a few computer languages, exceptions which the article notes) so that today all mathematicians agree, or do so at least tp the extent that you can get a bunch of mathematicians to agree about anything. Exponentiation, however denoted, is done before either unary or binary minus. Thus - 3^2 = -9, and 10 - 3^2 = 1. The "third" meaning of - , opposite, also obeys the same rule - x^2 is -9 if x = 3 and is still -9 if x = -3. It means the opposite of the square of x. But this is purely arbitrary, a product of the history of mathematical notation. It could have gone the other way.
As for whether - has two meanings or three, those who say two are looking at one unary operation and one binary operation. In short, they see -3 as meaning "the opposite of 3". Those who say that - has three meanings see the unary operation as having two fundamentally different meanings, depending on whether it is part of the name of a negative number or part of an expression. It is best to teach students that there are three meanings of -, else they are confused by the fact that -x can be positive. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Morgoth: Our modern mathematical notation is one of the great inventions in the history of writing, but to read its history is to shudder at how often it came near to disaster. What if Newton's notation had won out over that of Leibniz? The notation we have is really good, but we were lucky. Look at all the people who can't agree on the definition of a ring! Or look at the (to me disastrous) notation of big O, little o. The symbol =o is the only example I know of where a pair of parallel lines do not indicate an equivalence relation! Rick Norwood ( talk) 23:34, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Morgoth - it sounds to me like you think that if the unary minus/negative sign convention had "gone the other way" (in RN's words) then it would have been, what? less logical somehow? I don't see that one is any more logical then the other - indeed, I could make a strong argument that -5^2 is more sensibly understood with the minus sign being the negative sign. In fact, most middle schoolers and high schoolers would prefer it that way as well Mortgagemeister ( talk) 17:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
No, to Al Pachino. Sorry. Sometimes I get carried away by trivia references. I forget that not everyone is into trivia.
The logic of the order of operations is this: a symbol representing a repeated operation (exponents are repeated multiplication, multiplication is repeated addition) is done before the operation it repeats (exponents before multiplication, multiplicatin before addition). But inverse operations are on the same level. If we made -5^2 positive, then how about 0 - 5^2? How about 0 - x^2 when x is 5? With the other convention, the evaluation of -x^2 would be a real problem. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Rick - your point about -x^2 being a real problem eludes me here. In the expression -x, there is no question what the "-" is. It is the unary minus. It is only when you have an actual number that the minus sign "becomes" a heteronym. -5 can be either the opposite of 5 or the number negative 5.
Melchoir (or Morgoth sorry) I'm not sure why adding spaces to the expression should change your ratio. More people would just get the problem wrong maybe, but because they don't know what you are trying to say (like me). But systematically making more people answer 25 then -25? Not following it Mortgagemeister ( talk) 01:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Melchoir's name is Melchoir. I was making a weak joke, for which I've apologized.
The problem with -x is the substitution rule. We want to be able to replace x by a number and not change the meaning. if -x^2 had a different different meaning from -5^2, it would complicate the substitution rule. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC) Rick - So what? There are "complications" right now. Find the value of x^2 when x=-5. You may NOT substitute without changing the form of the expression to (-5)^2 Melchoir: Test your hypothesis and get back to me I guess. Without understanding why you think so, (i.e does it have to do with spaces, the difference between prefix and postfix operations, etc) your example offers no explanation. Mortgagemeister ( talk) 13:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Melchoir: The rule that you are quoting, "things that go together are closer together" just doesn't exist. I don't know where you learned it, but it is not a rule. 3+4 x 100 NEVER EQUALS 700. It either is 403 or is "rejected by the reader" due to the excessive amount of spaces. By the way, can't you still read this? Spacing, on the word level, doesn't change any of the rules you have learned to form English sentences.
Your two "forms" above have another difference, other than spacing. Pre fix operation vs Post Fix operation. If in your new system, you are going to rely on "closeness" (now that you have stated your rule I can understand what you were suggesting earlier and I can understand why its wrong) you will have far more ambiguity then if you impose a rule that pre fix always comes before post fix (or visa versa). Mortgagemeister 17:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Another alternate name is "take away". For example: 3 - 2, Can also be read as "three take away two." CaribDigita ( talk) 19:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
What were the + - = signs in ancient Greece? Only Egypt is mentioned. Simanos ( talk) 23:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Ed Sheerans new album is called +, it has a wikipedia entry. Should be connected? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.38.11 ( talk) 17:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
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I don't know APL, but the article seems inconsistent in describing its code for negative numbers. According to the "Minus sign" section, negative-number literals in this language use a bold superscript em dash, so the additive inverse of 5 is denoted —5. According to the section "Uses in computing", however, a macron is used, so this number is denoted ¯5. Are these two different flavors of APL, or is there a version that uses these symbols interchangeably? Peter Brown ( talk) 22:12, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Somebody who knows more about these things than I do might care to add a section about circled plus and minus?
Any volunteers?-- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 22:58, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@
JayBeeEll: To your revert:
It is simply not true that the +x „notation may be used when it is desired to emphasize the positiveness of a number“. If x is a variable, then +x emphasizes absolutely nothing (as stated already in the foregoing sentence). –
Nomen4Omen (
talk)
18:35, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
The lead sentence read:
I removed the word "respectively", citing WP:RESPECTIVELY. The word "respectively" here presumably clarifies that sum corresponds to addition and difference corresponds to subtraction. But if it's needed in that case, why isn't it needed to clarify that +, positive sign, and addition correspond to one another and contrast with −, negative sign, and subtraction? The parallelism is equally obvious in both cases, and "respectively" is equally unnecessary (I am tempted to say "in the respective cases" ☺). To use Fowler's terminology, who exactly is the "fool" who might think that "sum" corresponds to −, negative sign, and subtraction? -- Macrakis ( talk) 20:05, 1 February 2021 (UTC) @ Peter M. Brown: -- Macrakis ( talk) 20:06, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello all,
I was at first quite confident, but now I am not so sure, and I'd like some community feedback. On many articles, there are geographic coordinates for regions that use a "minus" sign in the form of a hyphen-minus like this, "-". I would like to know if it is acceptable, and part of the MOS to replace those with an en dash (as I have been doing for some time now), such as this "–".
An example where this dispute was first raised is here. "Temple Terrace is located in north-central Hillsborough County at 28°2′30″N 82°22′57″W (28.041546, –82.382519)" Is it correctly listed as I have there, or should it be, "Temple Terrace is located in north-central Hillsborough County at 28°2′30″N 82°22′57″W (28.041546, -82.382519)"? Your guidance/wisdom is much appreciated. ♥ Th78blue ( talk)♥ 20:38, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
You say, 'A plus sign written at the beginning of an international phone number is the "international prefix symbol" that "serves to remind the subscriber to dial the international prefix which differs from country to country and also serves to identify the number following as the international telephone number.' Well - not quite. In fact, it's better. Read the little box starting 'Little known wisdom for GSM and derived technologies' on top of http://pro-mobile-internet.net/ for the facts. Then ask your network operator why they don't tell you. Or why they themselves don't know. Are there any reasons why these facts ought to be withheld from readers? 181.214.159.165 ( talk) 01:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Additionally, the GSM mobile telephony standard allows the use of the plus sign in place of the international call prefix; the mobile operator then automatically converts the plus sign to the correct international prefix, depending on the location where the phone is being used. This enables callers to use the same stored number when calling from any country.) BUT it is also uncited [but it is certainly true, from my personal experience]. So we just need to find the relevant GSM standard and cite it. No doubt you can tell us where to find it? -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 15:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
a plus sign prefixed to a telephone number is used to indicate the form used for International Direct Dialing. Its precise usage varies by technology and national standards.Does anybody object to my changing this article to replace the current text with that version? -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 11:14, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
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According to the article, "[Concatenation] is more commonly written as "a"&"b"="ab", using the ampersand." Yet Concatenation and Comparison of programming languages (strings) both say + is more common. I'm removing the sentence. -- 192.235.8.2 20:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
<sub>2</sub>
and <sup>5</sup>
can be a real PITA. I have a lot of friends on Dreamwidth.org, and if you want any HTML code in a comment you have to type it yourself. I keep the sub- and superscript digits, and lots of other special characters, on a handy page on my desktop to copy-and-paste whenever I want. The Unicode page
Superscripts and Subscripts, Range: 2070–209F has all these and more. --
Thnidu (
talk)
02:18, 9 June 2017 (UTC)A personal tripod page is not a very good source. Maybe this book is better, even though it looks like it may have gotten the info from that same page. What about other sources? Anybody have? Dicklyon ( talk) 17:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I think there are three use for minus rather than 2.
x−y meaning the result of y subtracted from x −x meaning the result of negating the value of x, i.e. x subtracted from 0. -123 the negative number 123. It has the same value as the negation operator applied to 123 but is a different concept. I'll stick this in if nobody has a better idea.
Also a computery side might be an idea too. APL has negative numbers e.g. −123 separate from negated integers and IEEE has -0. Dmcq ( talk) 18:43, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
In -5, the minus sign is part of a numeral.
In -x, the minus sign is a unary operator.
In 7 - 5, the minus sign is a binary operator.
They are different. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the minus sign has the above three uses. Why don't we just agree that it (the minus sign) is a heteronym? I think that in the above list, you missed the fact that -5 is not only a number, but could also be an expression. In that case you have (the weird looking) -5=-5, which means in English: The unary operator acting on positive 5 results in the number negative 5. To add to your argument, the fact that there are three different meanings to the minus sign makes the statement -5^2=-25 less confusing to new math students. Gene Klein Mortgagemeister ( talk) 18:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, the minus sign has two meanings, not three. Although there is a mathematical entity with the value of negative five, our number system happens to denote it using the expression (unary-minus) (numeral-five), because it doesn't have any more convenient way to denote it! This is analogous to how the value satisfying 3x-1=0 is denoted by the expression (numeral-one) (binary-divide) (numeral-three) [usually in vertical form with the divide represented by a horizontal line], and the positive value satisfying x^2=2 is denoted by the expression (square-root) (numeral-two). Mathematically, each of these exists as an atomic concept; notationally, each is represented as an expression. Joule36e5 ( talk) 02:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
I have made an edit regarding the unary minus and PEMDAS. The unary minus is not part of PEDMDAS, however everyone seems to just go with the flow her and give it the same place as the subtraction operation. Some said: "However in some programming languages and Excel in particular, unary operators bind strongest" Can this be proven? Are there specs for this? I don't work for Excel and there is a good reason for that, but it would be nice to back this up.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.65.71.211 ( talk) 19:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be some idea that it is good pedagogy to say subtract, negative or opposite of for the different versions of minus. Also that they should put in raised minus or plus signs before the numbers to show they are negative or positive. I think this is just being stupid and them wanting to cause trouble again and I can't see it helping children but I guess it should be in the article. I just feel so disgusted by it that I can't actually bear to write anything in the actual article itself about it. Flaming teachers can't count but want to stick in more stupidities to cover their inadequacies by making the children unable to do anything is my thoughts on it.
Also perhaps a note about typography might be reasonable saying the unary form has no space but when spacing expressions the binary + and - operations have spaces put round them. Dmcq ( talk) 18:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the objection is here. Right now the minus sign is a "three-valued" heteronym. Are you under the impression that this is NOT confusing? One symbol meaning three different things? Moreover, the minus sign as a negative and the minus sign as the unary minus gets the same answer if arithmetic is limited to multiplication, division, addition and subtraction. However, include exponents and then you do not get the same answer. Tell me that isn't confusing! Mortgagemeister ( talk) 22:19, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
IAATeacher, and I don't want to shield children (or adult students) from heteronyms either. I just want to teach them that the minus sign IS a heteronym. This way when they are shown -5^2, they will not say (or think to themselves) "negative five squared" and be confused when the answer is -25. Mortgagemeister ( talk) 02:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Well - if one writes it as −52 , tell me what you think the result should be?
wrt to my "three-valued heteronym", The article already notes the three uses of the minus sign. If it doesn't call it a heteronym, well a rose by any other name and all that. Gotta tell you though, I find the binary minus "generalization" not so conceptually rich and hardly "perilous".
I mean if 5-3=2 is it really so deep that 5.2-3.2=2.0?
Mortgagemeister (
talk)
10:43, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, though Melchoir gets the right answer, the proximity of the 5 and the 2 has nothing to do with it. It's a convention. It could have gone either way. But by now, the matter is settled (except on a few calculators and in a few computer languages, exceptions which the article notes) so that today all mathematicians agree, or do so at least tp the extent that you can get a bunch of mathematicians to agree about anything. Exponentiation, however denoted, is done before either unary or binary minus. Thus - 3^2 = -9, and 10 - 3^2 = 1. The "third" meaning of - , opposite, also obeys the same rule - x^2 is -9 if x = 3 and is still -9 if x = -3. It means the opposite of the square of x. But this is purely arbitrary, a product of the history of mathematical notation. It could have gone the other way.
As for whether - has two meanings or three, those who say two are looking at one unary operation and one binary operation. In short, they see -3 as meaning "the opposite of 3". Those who say that - has three meanings see the unary operation as having two fundamentally different meanings, depending on whether it is part of the name of a negative number or part of an expression. It is best to teach students that there are three meanings of -, else they are confused by the fact that -x can be positive. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Morgoth: Our modern mathematical notation is one of the great inventions in the history of writing, but to read its history is to shudder at how often it came near to disaster. What if Newton's notation had won out over that of Leibniz? The notation we have is really good, but we were lucky. Look at all the people who can't agree on the definition of a ring! Or look at the (to me disastrous) notation of big O, little o. The symbol =o is the only example I know of where a pair of parallel lines do not indicate an equivalence relation! Rick Norwood ( talk) 23:34, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Morgoth - it sounds to me like you think that if the unary minus/negative sign convention had "gone the other way" (in RN's words) then it would have been, what? less logical somehow? I don't see that one is any more logical then the other - indeed, I could make a strong argument that -5^2 is more sensibly understood with the minus sign being the negative sign. In fact, most middle schoolers and high schoolers would prefer it that way as well Mortgagemeister ( talk) 17:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
No, to Al Pachino. Sorry. Sometimes I get carried away by trivia references. I forget that not everyone is into trivia.
The logic of the order of operations is this: a symbol representing a repeated operation (exponents are repeated multiplication, multiplication is repeated addition) is done before the operation it repeats (exponents before multiplication, multiplicatin before addition). But inverse operations are on the same level. If we made -5^2 positive, then how about 0 - 5^2? How about 0 - x^2 when x is 5? With the other convention, the evaluation of -x^2 would be a real problem. Rick Norwood ( talk) 19:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Rick - your point about -x^2 being a real problem eludes me here. In the expression -x, there is no question what the "-" is. It is the unary minus. It is only when you have an actual number that the minus sign "becomes" a heteronym. -5 can be either the opposite of 5 or the number negative 5.
Melchoir (or Morgoth sorry) I'm not sure why adding spaces to the expression should change your ratio. More people would just get the problem wrong maybe, but because they don't know what you are trying to say (like me). But systematically making more people answer 25 then -25? Not following it Mortgagemeister ( talk) 01:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Melchoir's name is Melchoir. I was making a weak joke, for which I've apologized.
The problem with -x is the substitution rule. We want to be able to replace x by a number and not change the meaning. if -x^2 had a different different meaning from -5^2, it would complicate the substitution rule. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC) Rick - So what? There are "complications" right now. Find the value of x^2 when x=-5. You may NOT substitute without changing the form of the expression to (-5)^2 Melchoir: Test your hypothesis and get back to me I guess. Without understanding why you think so, (i.e does it have to do with spaces, the difference between prefix and postfix operations, etc) your example offers no explanation. Mortgagemeister ( talk) 13:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Melchoir: The rule that you are quoting, "things that go together are closer together" just doesn't exist. I don't know where you learned it, but it is not a rule. 3+4 x 100 NEVER EQUALS 700. It either is 403 or is "rejected by the reader" due to the excessive amount of spaces. By the way, can't you still read this? Spacing, on the word level, doesn't change any of the rules you have learned to form English sentences.
Your two "forms" above have another difference, other than spacing. Pre fix operation vs Post Fix operation. If in your new system, you are going to rely on "closeness" (now that you have stated your rule I can understand what you were suggesting earlier and I can understand why its wrong) you will have far more ambiguity then if you impose a rule that pre fix always comes before post fix (or visa versa). Mortgagemeister 17:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Another alternate name is "take away". For example: 3 - 2, Can also be read as "three take away two." CaribDigita ( talk) 19:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
What were the + - = signs in ancient Greece? Only Egypt is mentioned. Simanos ( talk) 23:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Ed Sheerans new album is called +, it has a wikipedia entry. Should be connected? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.38.11 ( talk) 17:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Plus and minus signs. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I don't know APL, but the article seems inconsistent in describing its code for negative numbers. According to the "Minus sign" section, negative-number literals in this language use a bold superscript em dash, so the additive inverse of 5 is denoted —5. According to the section "Uses in computing", however, a macron is used, so this number is denoted ¯5. Are these two different flavors of APL, or is there a version that uses these symbols interchangeably? Peter Brown ( talk) 22:12, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Somebody who knows more about these things than I do might care to add a section about circled plus and minus?
Any volunteers?-- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 22:58, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@
JayBeeEll: To your revert:
It is simply not true that the +x „notation may be used when it is desired to emphasize the positiveness of a number“. If x is a variable, then +x emphasizes absolutely nothing (as stated already in the foregoing sentence). –
Nomen4Omen (
talk)
18:35, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
The lead sentence read:
I removed the word "respectively", citing WP:RESPECTIVELY. The word "respectively" here presumably clarifies that sum corresponds to addition and difference corresponds to subtraction. But if it's needed in that case, why isn't it needed to clarify that +, positive sign, and addition correspond to one another and contrast with −, negative sign, and subtraction? The parallelism is equally obvious in both cases, and "respectively" is equally unnecessary (I am tempted to say "in the respective cases" ☺). To use Fowler's terminology, who exactly is the "fool" who might think that "sum" corresponds to −, negative sign, and subtraction? -- Macrakis ( talk) 20:05, 1 February 2021 (UTC) @ Peter M. Brown: -- Macrakis ( talk) 20:06, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello all,
I was at first quite confident, but now I am not so sure, and I'd like some community feedback. On many articles, there are geographic coordinates for regions that use a "minus" sign in the form of a hyphen-minus like this, "-". I would like to know if it is acceptable, and part of the MOS to replace those with an en dash (as I have been doing for some time now), such as this "–".
An example where this dispute was first raised is here. "Temple Terrace is located in north-central Hillsborough County at 28°2′30″N 82°22′57″W (28.041546, –82.382519)" Is it correctly listed as I have there, or should it be, "Temple Terrace is located in north-central Hillsborough County at 28°2′30″N 82°22′57″W (28.041546, -82.382519)"? Your guidance/wisdom is much appreciated. ♥ Th78blue ( talk)♥ 20:38, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
You say, 'A plus sign written at the beginning of an international phone number is the "international prefix symbol" that "serves to remind the subscriber to dial the international prefix which differs from country to country and also serves to identify the number following as the international telephone number.' Well - not quite. In fact, it's better. Read the little box starting 'Little known wisdom for GSM and derived technologies' on top of http://pro-mobile-internet.net/ for the facts. Then ask your network operator why they don't tell you. Or why they themselves don't know. Are there any reasons why these facts ought to be withheld from readers? 181.214.159.165 ( talk) 01:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Additionally, the GSM mobile telephony standard allows the use of the plus sign in place of the international call prefix; the mobile operator then automatically converts the plus sign to the correct international prefix, depending on the location where the phone is being used. This enables callers to use the same stored number when calling from any country.) BUT it is also uncited [but it is certainly true, from my personal experience]. So we just need to find the relevant GSM standard and cite it. No doubt you can tell us where to find it? -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 15:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
a plus sign prefixed to a telephone number is used to indicate the form used for International Direct Dialing. Its precise usage varies by technology and national standards.Does anybody object to my changing this article to replace the current text with that version? -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 11:14, 18 January 2023 (UTC)