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The result of the proposal was no consensus to move this page from Portuguese West Africa to Angola (overseas province), per the discussion below and related discussion at Talk:Portuguese East Africa. This move was discussed in more depth there because the link from WP:RM was to that page instead of this one. Dekimasu よ! 05:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I doubt whether this name was ever used officially - banknotes of the time state that they are payable in the "dependencies of the province of Angola" rather than in a "Portuguese West Africa." The name could be an entirely English construction, and a dated, inaccurate one at that. More people are likely to be familiar with the colony under the name Angola than under "Portuguese West Africa." Gws5597 ( talk) 17:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I have put a POV notice on this article because it was clearly written from a non-neutral point of view in an attempt to retrospectively justify Portuguese imperial control of this part of Africa.
For example the phrase "From 1764 onwards, there was a gradual change from a slave-based society to one based on production for domestic consumption and export." is a complete lie and fails to point out that Portugal resisted the abolition of slavery in it's African colonies until 1869 - more than a century later! It also fails to point out that the primary 'export' referred to was the black population, which was increasingly exported into slavery in the Americas - even despite the British navy's efforts to restrict the slave trade. However, even the inclusion of these 'details', would not hide the fact that Portuguese colonialism after the abolition of slavery continued to rely on forced labour and brutal systems of plantation and mining.
I have also included a 'lacking references' notation. An example of sloppy, biased editing is the phrase 'the white population increased from 44,083 in 1940 to 172,529 in 1960. Where do these extremely precise numbers come from? Was there a census? Did it include a 'racial' question? What other 'racial' categories were in the census? How much of the total population took part in this census? Why is the only census information on this page about so-called 'whites'. Why were 'racial' categories included in this supposed census? Clearly, a 'racial' census indicates at least some level of racial discrimination (even it was only in the form of a census question). What other forms of racial discrimination existed in 'Portuguese Angola'? None of these questions are addressed by this ignorant article.
The Portuguese empire's violent opposition to basic democratic reforms (such as the rights to self-determination, to vote and to form political organisations) is never mentioned and, amazingly there is no section on the independence movement!
Given that there are already articles on Angola and the history of Angola, one has to question what is the purpose of this article? It includes large amounts of text that are identical to other articles dealing with the Portuguese empire indicating that it has been edited in a way designed to cast the violent, racist, repressive Portuguese empire in a good light.
Editors should therefore be mindful that this article has possibly been created and sustained by disgruntled Portuguese extreme nationalists with a nostaglic longing for the defeated empire. Ackees ( talk) 06:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Have re-instated the POV box. Editors should strive to seek consensus on the issues raised. Ackees ( talk) 15:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Having over the last decades specialised in studies on Angola, I am a newcomer to WP. To my surprise, I have discovered the country is dealt with not only on a main page, but on several complementary pages as well. However, while my first reaction was to consider this as positive, I have since come to rather negative conclusions. On the one hand, not all articles (or sections of articles) meet WP standards in terms of quality, sources, neutrality etc., and some parts are simply bad. On the other hand, there is a stunning lack of consistency among several articles, in terms of facts and analyses. Also, they often either overlap - or then leave out important points. The only solution seems to consist in overhauling all articles, without exception, and in this process deciding which ones are to be maintained autonomously, and which ones are better lumped together. I am not sure this is the best place to start this discussion. If it is not, is could be transferred to the discussion page of the main article. Aflis ( talk) 11:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
This book from Cambridge U. Press has a good section on the establishment of Angola colony and how it was a shift in Portuguese behavior up to that point. At the time of its establishment, the Portuguese name was the Reino de Angola. Ideally, the other names in the lede should be clarified and include the original Portuguese names and explain the dates of the change. — LlywelynII 00:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Angola (Portugal) →
Portuguese Angola – The current title just seems awkward. Also, the article on the Portugese colony of India is called Portuguese India.
Cristiano Tomás (
talk)
00:33, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Proposal: I share the criticisms of this article and think there is no justification for its existence. The relevant information it contains on Angola should be included in the history section of Angola and/or in the main article History of Angola, avoiding thus fastidious and disfunctional repetition. -- Aflis ( talk) 13:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
What sense does it make to change the name of the article without resolving the much more important problem of the repetition of the colonial history of Angola in five articles (actuallly six: there is also Slavery in Angola)? Aflis ( talk) 12:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Two answers. (a) That is what the article may be supposed to be, but in fact it is a mixture of an unsatisfactory description (and not a structured analysis) of the "polity" (which can be considered as having existed from 1926 to 1974) as well as elements outside this framework. (b) Very similar pieces appear in the other articles I have referred to, especially in "History of Angola". My conclusion remains thus the same: eliminate this article, and improve the corresponding section in "History of Angola": after all, it is part of that history, isn't it, and connot be analyzed & understood out of the context of an overall historical process. As for the other articles, this solution would allow to reduce/summarize the historical parts, referring the reader to the article where it is developed at more length. -- Aflis ( talk) 15:08, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I am ("institutionally") political science & sociology myself, and consider that trying to separate the "academic disciplines" doesn't make sense - especially a separation between history and social sciences. Thus, in the "effective colonial occupation" section of "History of Angola" this is the perspective that can and should be adopted. Aflis ( talk) 23:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Was that what this province was called? Chipmunkdavis ( talk) 15:33, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
No: 1972-75 it was called "Estado de Angola" (State of Angola)! Before, from 1951 onwards I think, it was "Província Ultramarina de Angola" (Overseas Province of Angola), and before that, "Colónia de Angola". -- Aflis ( talk) 16:25, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
@Walrasiad: The change of name to "Estado de Angola" was published in 1972 in Diário da República(Lisbon)(I can't find the exact date). After that, all official publications in Angola (e.g. statistical yearbooks) of course used the new designation. I have a dozen of them on my shelves: I picked them up in Luanda at the time. -- Aflis ( talk) 12:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't quite understand the purpose of the argument. And don't forget the term "Província de Angola" was introduced in 1951 (after the last "primary resistence" hat been put down in the 1940s). - Also, please don't invoke the myth of the 400 years. Delimitation and something approaching "effective occupation" was not achieved before the 1920s; in the beginning of the 20th century about 5% of the present territory of Angola was occupied; halfhearted attemps at conquering more than the pockets around Luanda and Benguela were started as late as the first half of the 19th century. - I have been doing research in and on Angola since the 1960s, from changig bases in Europe. Post-colonial Angolans sometimes consider me as an assimilado (in the reverse sense). -- Aflis ( talk) 13:02, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
@Walrasiad: (a) I accept your demonstration of the historical use of "colony" vs. "province". It would help if it could be completed for the period prior to the 19th century. NB: I am not a historian myself. As a political scientist/sociologist, I have been focusing mainly on the period since the 1960s, but have been made to work my way back from there. (b) I understand, and share, the interest in analyzing as a distinct period that of ~1926 to 1974, i.e. the one in which a colonial state existed that covered the entire territory negotiated during the Berlin conference (& aftermath). However, I don't think this should be done in a separate article, but in the article History of Angola. This would allow to bring out its specificity "in context", i.e. underlining the links backwards and, above all, fowards (= continuities colonial state > postcolonial state). -- Aflis ( talk) 15:23, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Two remarks:
I fervently hope this is not the the editorial policy followed at WP in actual fact, and that there are more precise criteria than lumping totally diverse situations together. Criteria like this one: articles for polities which were historically independent entities yes, but not for mere colonial (or similar) extensions of metropoles etc. - In the Angolan case, an additional argument is the repetition of the same subject matter in half a dozen articles - a problem which the other discussants have avoided to address. -- Aflis ( talk) 12:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Not well said at all. (a) Nobody ever spoke of merging the six articles into one. That is a baffling misunderstanding. The problem raised is that Angola's colonial history is dealt with not only in "Portuguese Angola", but in the five others as well, in more or less developed sections - and that there are quite a few contradictions between them. I cannot imagine that anybody thinks this is an acceptable situation. NB: Each of the other five articles has of course merits of its own; the nonsense lies in the repetition; there should be a logical (and consistent) "division of labour" betwen them. (b)I am still of the opinion that the best way to deal with the specific situation Angola was in during colonial occupation (1926-74) is in a well developed section of "History of Angola", which is the best place to establish the historical links of that period with the previous as well as with the following one. (c) As to the need for serious improvement, I think this applies to practically all Angola related articles. -- Aflis ( talk) 23:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Are we now resorting to nicities like "ludicrous" in order to make our points? Aflis ( talk) 11:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
@Smsagro: Occasional repetition of historical facts is in fact functional, but (a) there should be one article where the subject matter is developed at length, so that in other places short references are sufficient, and (b) in our case, having the same story told six times, by different authors, at length and with contradictions, cannot be considered as acceptable - or do you think it can? Aflis ( talk) 11:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
@Chip: Of course the six articles have different focuses: I am all the more aware of this as I have not only read them, but made contributions to (I think) all of them. This is why I agree that all of them have their specific merit (except, in my view, "Portuguese Angola", for the reasons given). The problem is that "Angola under the Portuguese" (see the book by Gerald Bender) is dealt with to some length not only in "History of Angola" and in the history section of "Angola", but also in the pieces on the independence war, on the civil war, and on slavery - and that there are contradictions of facts as well as analysis between them. You are thus right in the sense that, considered in toto, these are not duplicate articles, but their parts on Angola 1926-74 are repetitions. Especially as all of them are narratives without a special focus or analytical perspective. The option I propose is thus (a) to maintain one extensive piece on the 1926-75 period (in "History of Angola", dropping "Portuguese Angola") and (b) to maintain the other articles in question, but in each of them to substantially reduce the part on the 1926-74 period, adapting it to the specific focus of the article. Aflis ( talk) 17:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I rewrote this (and removed the GREA coalition government statement):
"In 1972, the Portuguese National Assembly wanting to grant Angola its independence, formed a coalition government (GREA) with the liberation movements, and thus effectively changing Angola's status from an overseas province to an “autonomous state” with authority over internal affairs";
Who knows a reference for GREA (?) coalition before the Carnation revolution please? Were MPLA and UNITA involved in that coalition? Smsagro ( talk) 22:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
So I did well when I removed the GREA thing, because it is totally false. Thank you. I will add your own words in this talk page to improve the section. Thank you. Smsagro ( talk) 23:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
In my view, the article "Portuguese Angola" should not contain more than a very short description of the 1961-1974 war. The proper place to develop this description is the article "Angolan War of Independence", and a duplication does not make sense. On the other hand, "Portuguese Angola" is the place to develop the analyses of the "late colonial" period initiated by the incisive reforms of 1962. -- Aflis ( talk) 15:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
I can only repeat: a short description of the war is of course functional for this article, but not lenghthy details - which, in turn, may make sense in the article on "War of Independence". - The fact that in WP articles often repeat what is said in others just reminds us of one of the weaknesses and flaws of WP.....-- Aflis ( talk) 17:54, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Currently this page is primarily a propaganda sheet for Portuguese revisionist nationalists and their sympathisers. Here some key problems:
These problems are compounded by the lack of source material, and the bias in the minimal source material that is offered, - as well as the over-use of Portuguese language source material on an English-language site. Constructive comments addressing these points are welcome. Ackees ( talk) 12:25, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
As you can see ElliotJoyce is not concerned with neutrality or factual accuracy but has become completely obsessed WP:WIKIHOUNDing other editors, trailing them around the encyclopaedia. Luckily she has already been banned for this, but its unlikely that this will cause her to give up easily. Ackees ( talk) 11:00, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
To my mind, most of this quarreling over "correct" terms doesn't make much sense. To start with, "Portuguese Angola" is a misnomer. It was never an official term, nor commonly used. The official & common name has been "Angola" since the 16th century (although the territory is was applied to included in the beginning just Luanda & hinterland, then Luanda + Benguela + respective hinterlands, and the present territory from the 1920s onward only). "Portuguese West Africa" was a term which for some time was used by non- Portuguese, never by Portuguese. In the 20th century, the official term changed from colony tp province to state, but the common name continued all the time to be Angola. Conclusion: the article should be renamed "Colonial Angola". -- Aflis ( talk) 22:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
The question this argument araises is whether or not such titled should reflect the official and/or common name. "Portuguese Angola" definitely does neither. As to "Colonial Angola", it is backed by the official use "Colónia de Angola" (until the 1950s), but I admit it is not an ideal solution. In fact, what the article does is describe "Angola Before Independence", with a special focus on the colonial system established by the Portuguese. It thus constitutes a development of a section of the article "History of Angola". And it poses a problem that appears elsewhere as well: that of a logical arrangement of the Angola-related articles, avoiding repetition and overlapping - or the existence, side by side, of competing narratives. -- Aflis ( talk) 10:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
This is not at all my point. Putting aside the terminological questions, my concern is that this article is part of a whole series of articles on Angola - especially Angola, History of Angola, Angolan War of Independence, but also a number of minor ones. As a consequence, there has to be a logical "division of labour" among all articles, and repetition/overlapping has to be avoided (or a point well developed in one article is mentioned in a succinct way only in the others). Even more important is the necessity to avoid contradictions, factual ones of course, but also incompatible "analytical narratives", to use the jargon. -- Aflis ( talk) 16:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
It does make sense to focus on a historical entity, but it does not make sense to do so without indicating the basic linkages, "vertical" as well as "horizontal". The same applies e.g. to the article on the independence war in Angola - or for that matter on Luanda or on the Benguela railway. In other words: the articles on Angola have to be systematically interlinked - but in the way of a logical "division of labour" (see above). -- Aflis ( talk) 09:29, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Portuguese Angola's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bio":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 13:08, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello Wikipedia users and readers of this page, I am planning to edit the Sports section of this article. While it is a good section I feel like it could user more information to help bolster the article. Specifically I would want to add information on football and how Angola experienced it during colonial times. I will add specific information on the recruitment and scouting practices that occurred in Angola during this time. Also I will want to add how football was introduced and the general experiences of the African players. I will also add more information about the players that came from Angola and their contributions to Portuguese football overall. These changes will probably amount to around 50-100 words. I plan on using the book, Following the Ball : The Migration of African Soccer Players Across the Portuguese Colonial Empire, 1949–1975. This book is written by Todd Cleveland and he is a professor at the University of Arkansas. He is a scholar in African studies so I feel that he is a credible author here. If anyone wants to comment or suggest anything about my planned edits please let me know; either on this talk page or on my talk page. S4mon ( talk) 22:12, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
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The result of the proposal was no consensus to move this page from Portuguese West Africa to Angola (overseas province), per the discussion below and related discussion at Talk:Portuguese East Africa. This move was discussed in more depth there because the link from WP:RM was to that page instead of this one. Dekimasu よ! 05:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I doubt whether this name was ever used officially - banknotes of the time state that they are payable in the "dependencies of the province of Angola" rather than in a "Portuguese West Africa." The name could be an entirely English construction, and a dated, inaccurate one at that. More people are likely to be familiar with the colony under the name Angola than under "Portuguese West Africa." Gws5597 ( talk) 17:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I have put a POV notice on this article because it was clearly written from a non-neutral point of view in an attempt to retrospectively justify Portuguese imperial control of this part of Africa.
For example the phrase "From 1764 onwards, there was a gradual change from a slave-based society to one based on production for domestic consumption and export." is a complete lie and fails to point out that Portugal resisted the abolition of slavery in it's African colonies until 1869 - more than a century later! It also fails to point out that the primary 'export' referred to was the black population, which was increasingly exported into slavery in the Americas - even despite the British navy's efforts to restrict the slave trade. However, even the inclusion of these 'details', would not hide the fact that Portuguese colonialism after the abolition of slavery continued to rely on forced labour and brutal systems of plantation and mining.
I have also included a 'lacking references' notation. An example of sloppy, biased editing is the phrase 'the white population increased from 44,083 in 1940 to 172,529 in 1960. Where do these extremely precise numbers come from? Was there a census? Did it include a 'racial' question? What other 'racial' categories were in the census? How much of the total population took part in this census? Why is the only census information on this page about so-called 'whites'. Why were 'racial' categories included in this supposed census? Clearly, a 'racial' census indicates at least some level of racial discrimination (even it was only in the form of a census question). What other forms of racial discrimination existed in 'Portuguese Angola'? None of these questions are addressed by this ignorant article.
The Portuguese empire's violent opposition to basic democratic reforms (such as the rights to self-determination, to vote and to form political organisations) is never mentioned and, amazingly there is no section on the independence movement!
Given that there are already articles on Angola and the history of Angola, one has to question what is the purpose of this article? It includes large amounts of text that are identical to other articles dealing with the Portuguese empire indicating that it has been edited in a way designed to cast the violent, racist, repressive Portuguese empire in a good light.
Editors should therefore be mindful that this article has possibly been created and sustained by disgruntled Portuguese extreme nationalists with a nostaglic longing for the defeated empire. Ackees ( talk) 06:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Have re-instated the POV box. Editors should strive to seek consensus on the issues raised. Ackees ( talk) 15:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Having over the last decades specialised in studies on Angola, I am a newcomer to WP. To my surprise, I have discovered the country is dealt with not only on a main page, but on several complementary pages as well. However, while my first reaction was to consider this as positive, I have since come to rather negative conclusions. On the one hand, not all articles (or sections of articles) meet WP standards in terms of quality, sources, neutrality etc., and some parts are simply bad. On the other hand, there is a stunning lack of consistency among several articles, in terms of facts and analyses. Also, they often either overlap - or then leave out important points. The only solution seems to consist in overhauling all articles, without exception, and in this process deciding which ones are to be maintained autonomously, and which ones are better lumped together. I am not sure this is the best place to start this discussion. If it is not, is could be transferred to the discussion page of the main article. Aflis ( talk) 11:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
This book from Cambridge U. Press has a good section on the establishment of Angola colony and how it was a shift in Portuguese behavior up to that point. At the time of its establishment, the Portuguese name was the Reino de Angola. Ideally, the other names in the lede should be clarified and include the original Portuguese names and explain the dates of the change. — LlywelynII 00:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Angola (Portugal) →
Portuguese Angola – The current title just seems awkward. Also, the article on the Portugese colony of India is called Portuguese India.
Cristiano Tomás (
talk)
00:33, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Proposal: I share the criticisms of this article and think there is no justification for its existence. The relevant information it contains on Angola should be included in the history section of Angola and/or in the main article History of Angola, avoiding thus fastidious and disfunctional repetition. -- Aflis ( talk) 13:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
What sense does it make to change the name of the article without resolving the much more important problem of the repetition of the colonial history of Angola in five articles (actuallly six: there is also Slavery in Angola)? Aflis ( talk) 12:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Two answers. (a) That is what the article may be supposed to be, but in fact it is a mixture of an unsatisfactory description (and not a structured analysis) of the "polity" (which can be considered as having existed from 1926 to 1974) as well as elements outside this framework. (b) Very similar pieces appear in the other articles I have referred to, especially in "History of Angola". My conclusion remains thus the same: eliminate this article, and improve the corresponding section in "History of Angola": after all, it is part of that history, isn't it, and connot be analyzed & understood out of the context of an overall historical process. As for the other articles, this solution would allow to reduce/summarize the historical parts, referring the reader to the article where it is developed at more length. -- Aflis ( talk) 15:08, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I am ("institutionally") political science & sociology myself, and consider that trying to separate the "academic disciplines" doesn't make sense - especially a separation between history and social sciences. Thus, in the "effective colonial occupation" section of "History of Angola" this is the perspective that can and should be adopted. Aflis ( talk) 23:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Was that what this province was called? Chipmunkdavis ( talk) 15:33, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
No: 1972-75 it was called "Estado de Angola" (State of Angola)! Before, from 1951 onwards I think, it was "Província Ultramarina de Angola" (Overseas Province of Angola), and before that, "Colónia de Angola". -- Aflis ( talk) 16:25, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
@Walrasiad: The change of name to "Estado de Angola" was published in 1972 in Diário da República(Lisbon)(I can't find the exact date). After that, all official publications in Angola (e.g. statistical yearbooks) of course used the new designation. I have a dozen of them on my shelves: I picked them up in Luanda at the time. -- Aflis ( talk) 12:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't quite understand the purpose of the argument. And don't forget the term "Província de Angola" was introduced in 1951 (after the last "primary resistence" hat been put down in the 1940s). - Also, please don't invoke the myth of the 400 years. Delimitation and something approaching "effective occupation" was not achieved before the 1920s; in the beginning of the 20th century about 5% of the present territory of Angola was occupied; halfhearted attemps at conquering more than the pockets around Luanda and Benguela were started as late as the first half of the 19th century. - I have been doing research in and on Angola since the 1960s, from changig bases in Europe. Post-colonial Angolans sometimes consider me as an assimilado (in the reverse sense). -- Aflis ( talk) 13:02, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
@Walrasiad: (a) I accept your demonstration of the historical use of "colony" vs. "province". It would help if it could be completed for the period prior to the 19th century. NB: I am not a historian myself. As a political scientist/sociologist, I have been focusing mainly on the period since the 1960s, but have been made to work my way back from there. (b) I understand, and share, the interest in analyzing as a distinct period that of ~1926 to 1974, i.e. the one in which a colonial state existed that covered the entire territory negotiated during the Berlin conference (& aftermath). However, I don't think this should be done in a separate article, but in the article History of Angola. This would allow to bring out its specificity "in context", i.e. underlining the links backwards and, above all, fowards (= continuities colonial state > postcolonial state). -- Aflis ( talk) 15:23, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Two remarks:
I fervently hope this is not the the editorial policy followed at WP in actual fact, and that there are more precise criteria than lumping totally diverse situations together. Criteria like this one: articles for polities which were historically independent entities yes, but not for mere colonial (or similar) extensions of metropoles etc. - In the Angolan case, an additional argument is the repetition of the same subject matter in half a dozen articles - a problem which the other discussants have avoided to address. -- Aflis ( talk) 12:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Not well said at all. (a) Nobody ever spoke of merging the six articles into one. That is a baffling misunderstanding. The problem raised is that Angola's colonial history is dealt with not only in "Portuguese Angola", but in the five others as well, in more or less developed sections - and that there are quite a few contradictions between them. I cannot imagine that anybody thinks this is an acceptable situation. NB: Each of the other five articles has of course merits of its own; the nonsense lies in the repetition; there should be a logical (and consistent) "division of labour" betwen them. (b)I am still of the opinion that the best way to deal with the specific situation Angola was in during colonial occupation (1926-74) is in a well developed section of "History of Angola", which is the best place to establish the historical links of that period with the previous as well as with the following one. (c) As to the need for serious improvement, I think this applies to practically all Angola related articles. -- Aflis ( talk) 23:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Are we now resorting to nicities like "ludicrous" in order to make our points? Aflis ( talk) 11:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
@Smsagro: Occasional repetition of historical facts is in fact functional, but (a) there should be one article where the subject matter is developed at length, so that in other places short references are sufficient, and (b) in our case, having the same story told six times, by different authors, at length and with contradictions, cannot be considered as acceptable - or do you think it can? Aflis ( talk) 11:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
@Chip: Of course the six articles have different focuses: I am all the more aware of this as I have not only read them, but made contributions to (I think) all of them. This is why I agree that all of them have their specific merit (except, in my view, "Portuguese Angola", for the reasons given). The problem is that "Angola under the Portuguese" (see the book by Gerald Bender) is dealt with to some length not only in "History of Angola" and in the history section of "Angola", but also in the pieces on the independence war, on the civil war, and on slavery - and that there are contradictions of facts as well as analysis between them. You are thus right in the sense that, considered in toto, these are not duplicate articles, but their parts on Angola 1926-74 are repetitions. Especially as all of them are narratives without a special focus or analytical perspective. The option I propose is thus (a) to maintain one extensive piece on the 1926-75 period (in "History of Angola", dropping "Portuguese Angola") and (b) to maintain the other articles in question, but in each of them to substantially reduce the part on the 1926-74 period, adapting it to the specific focus of the article. Aflis ( talk) 17:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I rewrote this (and removed the GREA coalition government statement):
"In 1972, the Portuguese National Assembly wanting to grant Angola its independence, formed a coalition government (GREA) with the liberation movements, and thus effectively changing Angola's status from an overseas province to an “autonomous state” with authority over internal affairs";
Who knows a reference for GREA (?) coalition before the Carnation revolution please? Were MPLA and UNITA involved in that coalition? Smsagro ( talk) 22:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
So I did well when I removed the GREA thing, because it is totally false. Thank you. I will add your own words in this talk page to improve the section. Thank you. Smsagro ( talk) 23:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
In my view, the article "Portuguese Angola" should not contain more than a very short description of the 1961-1974 war. The proper place to develop this description is the article "Angolan War of Independence", and a duplication does not make sense. On the other hand, "Portuguese Angola" is the place to develop the analyses of the "late colonial" period initiated by the incisive reforms of 1962. -- Aflis ( talk) 15:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
I can only repeat: a short description of the war is of course functional for this article, but not lenghthy details - which, in turn, may make sense in the article on "War of Independence". - The fact that in WP articles often repeat what is said in others just reminds us of one of the weaknesses and flaws of WP.....-- Aflis ( talk) 17:54, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Currently this page is primarily a propaganda sheet for Portuguese revisionist nationalists and their sympathisers. Here some key problems:
These problems are compounded by the lack of source material, and the bias in the minimal source material that is offered, - as well as the over-use of Portuguese language source material on an English-language site. Constructive comments addressing these points are welcome. Ackees ( talk) 12:25, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
As you can see ElliotJoyce is not concerned with neutrality or factual accuracy but has become completely obsessed WP:WIKIHOUNDing other editors, trailing them around the encyclopaedia. Luckily she has already been banned for this, but its unlikely that this will cause her to give up easily. Ackees ( talk) 11:00, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
To my mind, most of this quarreling over "correct" terms doesn't make much sense. To start with, "Portuguese Angola" is a misnomer. It was never an official term, nor commonly used. The official & common name has been "Angola" since the 16th century (although the territory is was applied to included in the beginning just Luanda & hinterland, then Luanda + Benguela + respective hinterlands, and the present territory from the 1920s onward only). "Portuguese West Africa" was a term which for some time was used by non- Portuguese, never by Portuguese. In the 20th century, the official term changed from colony tp province to state, but the common name continued all the time to be Angola. Conclusion: the article should be renamed "Colonial Angola". -- Aflis ( talk) 22:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
The question this argument araises is whether or not such titled should reflect the official and/or common name. "Portuguese Angola" definitely does neither. As to "Colonial Angola", it is backed by the official use "Colónia de Angola" (until the 1950s), but I admit it is not an ideal solution. In fact, what the article does is describe "Angola Before Independence", with a special focus on the colonial system established by the Portuguese. It thus constitutes a development of a section of the article "History of Angola". And it poses a problem that appears elsewhere as well: that of a logical arrangement of the Angola-related articles, avoiding repetition and overlapping - or the existence, side by side, of competing narratives. -- Aflis ( talk) 10:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
This is not at all my point. Putting aside the terminological questions, my concern is that this article is part of a whole series of articles on Angola - especially Angola, History of Angola, Angolan War of Independence, but also a number of minor ones. As a consequence, there has to be a logical "division of labour" among all articles, and repetition/overlapping has to be avoided (or a point well developed in one article is mentioned in a succinct way only in the others). Even more important is the necessity to avoid contradictions, factual ones of course, but also incompatible "analytical narratives", to use the jargon. -- Aflis ( talk) 16:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
It does make sense to focus on a historical entity, but it does not make sense to do so without indicating the basic linkages, "vertical" as well as "horizontal". The same applies e.g. to the article on the independence war in Angola - or for that matter on Luanda or on the Benguela railway. In other words: the articles on Angola have to be systematically interlinked - but in the way of a logical "division of labour" (see above). -- Aflis ( talk) 09:29, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Portuguese Angola's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bio":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 13:08, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello Wikipedia users and readers of this page, I am planning to edit the Sports section of this article. While it is a good section I feel like it could user more information to help bolster the article. Specifically I would want to add information on football and how Angola experienced it during colonial times. I will add specific information on the recruitment and scouting practices that occurred in Angola during this time. Also I will want to add how football was introduced and the general experiences of the African players. I will also add more information about the players that came from Angola and their contributions to Portuguese football overall. These changes will probably amount to around 50-100 words. I plan on using the book, Following the Ball : The Migration of African Soccer Players Across the Portuguese Colonial Empire, 1949–1975. This book is written by Todd Cleveland and he is a professor at the University of Arkansas. He is a scholar in African studies so I feel that he is a credible author here. If anyone wants to comment or suggest anything about my planned edits please let me know; either on this talk page or on my talk page. S4mon ( talk) 22:12, 5 May 2021 (UTC)