This article was nominated for deletion on 3 September, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article is in desperate need of a rewrite. It contains only examples without any information about the role of female characters in video games, their perception by players and non-players, or comparisions to portrayals in other media. It's certainly an interesting topic to cover, as I think video games are about the least sexist medium of entertainment, but this article is lacking any kind of quality. Either it is done well, or it should not be covered at all. Because as mentioned, it reads rather sexist against male players and game developers.
I've only recently begun exploring the contribution side of Wiki, but I was excited to find this group, and this article project in particular. I'll work up a decent write up as quickly as I can. Before I hear any groans about n00bs - let me explain: 1) I'm a fulltime freelance writer 2) I have earned my BA in English with a focus on writing and literary theory, heavily focusing on gender criticism 3) I am female 4) I have been a gamer as long as I can remember (first managing job was even at a video game store - Rhino) 5) I have already partially researched this topic for other works Is there anyone willing to work with me a bit if I have any questions on the technical side of things? -- LissaRhys ( talk) 19:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC) Comment moved to top. -- LissaRhys ( talk) 19:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.88.124.202 ( talk) 16:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
So is there a page about the portrayal of MEN in video games, or is this another example of a double-standard where women being stereotyped is bad (and I totally agree it is) yet it's okay to stereotype men?-Fartnog Buttstinkle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.200.31 ( talk) 08:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
That is a good point, though there is no reason why an article could not be made on the portrayal of men in video games. There is already this article and a surprisingly detailed article on gay, lesbian and transsexual characters in video games. I can see no reason why you couldn't do an article about male stereotypes. Remember, the games that are criticized as objectifying women can equally be criticized as portraying men as dumb, trigger-happy muscle men without character depth or wit. This would of course require reliable sources. Comrade Graham ( talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
in what way does duke nukem 3d encourage you to attack the women? when you kill a woman duke says "damn" and a bunch of angry enemies spawn in —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.203.82 ( talk) 12:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The article contains the heading "Positive portayals" and this is a violation of our NPOV principle because it does not say according to whom these portayals are positive and under what criteria. The header should be changed to read "non-sexist portayals" (if we can find such a source) or "Uncontroversial portayals" or something which does not indicate moral judgement by Wikipedia editors. We are here to document what other sources say, and if no source say that these portayals are positive then we shouldn't say so. NerdyNSK ( talk) 17:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The article also contains the heading "Negative protrayals". Since "Negative" is such a bad sounding word, why don't we replace it with the more politically correct "non-positive", or "differently positive". Oh, I'm sorry, that would be TOTALLY INSANE AND STUPID! WTF is Wikipedia full of agenda-driven people pretending to be neutral?? Jeff The Riffer ( talk) 06:21, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
The interior writings on the section seem to make it clear that these are just points of view, however you may have a point when it comes to the titles. Maybe, "Claims of posative portrayals" and "Claims of negative portrayals". At any rate we should try and clear this up. I personally vote for my "claims" header, if I don't get any replies in the next two weeks or so I will change it. If anyone has a suggestion or issue after that, post it here. Comrade Graham ( talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
The statement that Duke Nukem encourage players to kill women is totally, totally wrong. The game in fact punished players for harming women characters in the game, usually in the form of having an impossible amount of enemies teleport in.
While Duke Nukem may have pushed objectification of women, it never, EVER encouraged violence towards them. GrimmC ( talk) 17:32, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, objectified maybe, but not violent. Duke wants to see the strippers, not kill them. I have heard that there was a plot reason for the "sexy females", to distract the aliens or something, and the tied up and captured ones are the alien's fault. Of course that introduces the also controversial idea of mercy killing. Comrade Graham ( talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Am surprised this is a stub (given the number of gamers we have on wikipedia). Added various roles and instances (from memory) of female characters under the "roles" section. May be a list could be made ? Chocolate Horlicks ( talk) 09:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The problem with such a scheme is based on what criteria is a game notable for this list? Is it fine if it only has a female protagonist like Tomb Raider or No One Lives Forever? Is it fine if it has a female main character option like Quake III Arena or Blood II: The Chosen? Is it fine it has a female side character or just a female NPC? Is it fine, in the case of strategy games, if it has a single female unit ( AoE had a ship ostensibly with Cleopatra on it though no other "female" units). These are important things to consider. Though a list of games noted by reviwerse and the press for either their depth or lack thereof is fine, though that is already how this article is shaping up. Comrade Graham ( talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Both IGN and Gamespot I believe wrote articles addressing the complaints from some feminists groups that have complained about the portrayal of females in DNF. Maybe this should be included in this article. ScienceApe ( talk) 01:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
I propose to remove all specific examples in "Claims of positive portrayals". I know of some more general positive portrayals like "women are being shown as stronger and stronger in video games" (not quote) and the like. Harry Blue5 ( talk • contribs) 20:22, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Oh, alright then. -- Barry Sandwich ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
April Ryan from "The Longest Journey" is widely known as a high point for female game characters. I don't have a citation for this but I know there must be something out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.151.140.58 ( talk) 21:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
No, not "alright". How many of those characters have been subject of academic study? [1] [2] [3] [4]
Your requirement to have links only to characters with complete articles is unrealistic and against Wikipedia policy; WP:Verifiability advises to include content in Wikipedia based on appearance in reliable sources, not in other existing Wikipedia articles. Unless you provide a reason for removal based on approved guidelines, I'm restating the link into the article. Diego Moya ( talk) 22:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
In the Player characters section there's a paragraph claiming that "Notable examples of such characters include...", followed by a seemingly random list of characters. Some of them have been later mentioned in the claims of positive portrayals, but not all of them have references. So what's the assertion of notability for Aya Brea, Rayne and Bayonetta to be included in that list of examples? Diego Moya ( talk) 16:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and as I see you're making article now - you've got to find some notable notability, as even Ayane (Dead or Alive) is actually borderline (scrapping the barrel at times), in my opinion. Primarily, it would mean her being on multiple top/best lists by notable outlets (with their own Wikipedia articles), also appearances outside of the games (film adaptations, novels), mechandise, etc. You've got a whole section for "voice acting" - usually, it's just in the infobox, where the various voice actors in the various games in the series are listed. -- 94.246.154.130 ( talk) 09:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
And also there are many characters who have their articles, AND were favorably compared to Lara Croft, but are not even mentioned here anyway (like Ayame (Tenchu), for example). It's really not a big deal, and Lara is mostly passe anyway. -- 94.246.154.130 ( talk) 10:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
http://www.gamesradar.com/fair-game-for-girls/ -- 194.145.185.229 ( talk) 11:42, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Do you think we should also expand on the "jiggle physics" feature of female video game characters? It's a very common trend nowadays to give female characters large breasts that bounce, sway, and make various other random movements. Also, when I added in a "breast bounce" video game concept article, it was later removed. Why was it removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.156.7.142 ( talk) 19:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
This article is prone to having whole paragraphs that are disguised lists of characters. The three sections in "Roles of female characters in video games" are the major culprits in this regard.
I think these paragraphs would be better served by moving them to a real list format, either by creating a list article or by placing those characters as new subcategories of Category:Female video game characters. After all the only information given in the current article is a binary "this character does/doesn't belong to this group" - you don't need a paragraph for that, and it hurts the article's readability.
Moving these lists to a different place would make for a better prose, and characters for which there is real information about their portrayal could be kept (see the paragraphs about Samus and Lara in Female protagonists to see how it's done right). If nobody opposes I'm going to remove the lists of characters and placing them and their videogames under the appropriate new categories. Diego ( talk) 12:18, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/ ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 11:57, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Also, I added several more articles in the meantime. -- 194.145.185.229 ( talk) 17:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Also, I just love how you ignored the link that I gave you to write a better article (a few section above). -- 194.145.185.229 ( talk) 17:14, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
It has been proposed (not by me, although I support the idea) that Gender representation in video games be merged here. Yunshui 雲 水 09:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
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This article was nominated for deletion on 3 September, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article is in desperate need of a rewrite. It contains only examples without any information about the role of female characters in video games, their perception by players and non-players, or comparisions to portrayals in other media. It's certainly an interesting topic to cover, as I think video games are about the least sexist medium of entertainment, but this article is lacking any kind of quality. Either it is done well, or it should not be covered at all. Because as mentioned, it reads rather sexist against male players and game developers.
I've only recently begun exploring the contribution side of Wiki, but I was excited to find this group, and this article project in particular. I'll work up a decent write up as quickly as I can. Before I hear any groans about n00bs - let me explain: 1) I'm a fulltime freelance writer 2) I have earned my BA in English with a focus on writing and literary theory, heavily focusing on gender criticism 3) I am female 4) I have been a gamer as long as I can remember (first managing job was even at a video game store - Rhino) 5) I have already partially researched this topic for other works Is there anyone willing to work with me a bit if I have any questions on the technical side of things? -- LissaRhys ( talk) 19:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC) Comment moved to top. -- LissaRhys ( talk) 19:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.88.124.202 ( talk) 16:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
So is there a page about the portrayal of MEN in video games, or is this another example of a double-standard where women being stereotyped is bad (and I totally agree it is) yet it's okay to stereotype men?-Fartnog Buttstinkle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.200.31 ( talk) 08:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
That is a good point, though there is no reason why an article could not be made on the portrayal of men in video games. There is already this article and a surprisingly detailed article on gay, lesbian and transsexual characters in video games. I can see no reason why you couldn't do an article about male stereotypes. Remember, the games that are criticized as objectifying women can equally be criticized as portraying men as dumb, trigger-happy muscle men without character depth or wit. This would of course require reliable sources. Comrade Graham ( talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
in what way does duke nukem 3d encourage you to attack the women? when you kill a woman duke says "damn" and a bunch of angry enemies spawn in —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.203.82 ( talk) 12:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The article contains the heading "Positive portayals" and this is a violation of our NPOV principle because it does not say according to whom these portayals are positive and under what criteria. The header should be changed to read "non-sexist portayals" (if we can find such a source) or "Uncontroversial portayals" or something which does not indicate moral judgement by Wikipedia editors. We are here to document what other sources say, and if no source say that these portayals are positive then we shouldn't say so. NerdyNSK ( talk) 17:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The article also contains the heading "Negative protrayals". Since "Negative" is such a bad sounding word, why don't we replace it with the more politically correct "non-positive", or "differently positive". Oh, I'm sorry, that would be TOTALLY INSANE AND STUPID! WTF is Wikipedia full of agenda-driven people pretending to be neutral?? Jeff The Riffer ( talk) 06:21, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
The interior writings on the section seem to make it clear that these are just points of view, however you may have a point when it comes to the titles. Maybe, "Claims of posative portrayals" and "Claims of negative portrayals". At any rate we should try and clear this up. I personally vote for my "claims" header, if I don't get any replies in the next two weeks or so I will change it. If anyone has a suggestion or issue after that, post it here. Comrade Graham ( talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
The statement that Duke Nukem encourage players to kill women is totally, totally wrong. The game in fact punished players for harming women characters in the game, usually in the form of having an impossible amount of enemies teleport in.
While Duke Nukem may have pushed objectification of women, it never, EVER encouraged violence towards them. GrimmC ( talk) 17:32, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, objectified maybe, but not violent. Duke wants to see the strippers, not kill them. I have heard that there was a plot reason for the "sexy females", to distract the aliens or something, and the tied up and captured ones are the alien's fault. Of course that introduces the also controversial idea of mercy killing. Comrade Graham ( talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Am surprised this is a stub (given the number of gamers we have on wikipedia). Added various roles and instances (from memory) of female characters under the "roles" section. May be a list could be made ? Chocolate Horlicks ( talk) 09:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The problem with such a scheme is based on what criteria is a game notable for this list? Is it fine if it only has a female protagonist like Tomb Raider or No One Lives Forever? Is it fine if it has a female main character option like Quake III Arena or Blood II: The Chosen? Is it fine it has a female side character or just a female NPC? Is it fine, in the case of strategy games, if it has a single female unit ( AoE had a ship ostensibly with Cleopatra on it though no other "female" units). These are important things to consider. Though a list of games noted by reviwerse and the press for either their depth or lack thereof is fine, though that is already how this article is shaping up. Comrade Graham ( talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Both IGN and Gamespot I believe wrote articles addressing the complaints from some feminists groups that have complained about the portrayal of females in DNF. Maybe this should be included in this article. ScienceApe ( talk) 01:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
I propose to remove all specific examples in "Claims of positive portrayals". I know of some more general positive portrayals like "women are being shown as stronger and stronger in video games" (not quote) and the like. Harry Blue5 ( talk • contribs) 20:22, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Oh, alright then. -- Barry Sandwich ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
April Ryan from "The Longest Journey" is widely known as a high point for female game characters. I don't have a citation for this but I know there must be something out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.151.140.58 ( talk) 21:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
No, not "alright". How many of those characters have been subject of academic study? [1] [2] [3] [4]
Your requirement to have links only to characters with complete articles is unrealistic and against Wikipedia policy; WP:Verifiability advises to include content in Wikipedia based on appearance in reliable sources, not in other existing Wikipedia articles. Unless you provide a reason for removal based on approved guidelines, I'm restating the link into the article. Diego Moya ( talk) 22:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
In the Player characters section there's a paragraph claiming that "Notable examples of such characters include...", followed by a seemingly random list of characters. Some of them have been later mentioned in the claims of positive portrayals, but not all of them have references. So what's the assertion of notability for Aya Brea, Rayne and Bayonetta to be included in that list of examples? Diego Moya ( talk) 16:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and as I see you're making article now - you've got to find some notable notability, as even Ayane (Dead or Alive) is actually borderline (scrapping the barrel at times), in my opinion. Primarily, it would mean her being on multiple top/best lists by notable outlets (with their own Wikipedia articles), also appearances outside of the games (film adaptations, novels), mechandise, etc. You've got a whole section for "voice acting" - usually, it's just in the infobox, where the various voice actors in the various games in the series are listed. -- 94.246.154.130 ( talk) 09:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
And also there are many characters who have their articles, AND were favorably compared to Lara Croft, but are not even mentioned here anyway (like Ayame (Tenchu), for example). It's really not a big deal, and Lara is mostly passe anyway. -- 94.246.154.130 ( talk) 10:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
http://www.gamesradar.com/fair-game-for-girls/ -- 194.145.185.229 ( talk) 11:42, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Do you think we should also expand on the "jiggle physics" feature of female video game characters? It's a very common trend nowadays to give female characters large breasts that bounce, sway, and make various other random movements. Also, when I added in a "breast bounce" video game concept article, it was later removed. Why was it removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.156.7.142 ( talk) 19:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
This article is prone to having whole paragraphs that are disguised lists of characters. The three sections in "Roles of female characters in video games" are the major culprits in this regard.
I think these paragraphs would be better served by moving them to a real list format, either by creating a list article or by placing those characters as new subcategories of Category:Female video game characters. After all the only information given in the current article is a binary "this character does/doesn't belong to this group" - you don't need a paragraph for that, and it hurts the article's readability.
Moving these lists to a different place would make for a better prose, and characters for which there is real information about their portrayal could be kept (see the paragraphs about Samus and Lara in Female protagonists to see how it's done right). If nobody opposes I'm going to remove the lists of characters and placing them and their videogames under the appropriate new categories. Diego ( talk) 12:18, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/ ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 11:57, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Also, I added several more articles in the meantime. -- 194.145.185.229 ( talk) 17:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Also, I just love how you ignored the link that I gave you to write a better article (a few section above). -- 194.145.185.229 ( talk) 17:14, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
It has been proposed (not by me, although I support the idea) that Gender representation in video games be merged here. Yunshui 雲 水 09:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)