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[Personal attacks removed]
I've noticed a proliferation of single-purpose accounts used solely to edit this article, or even solely to make comments on this talk page. I'll assume, for now, that these are all genuine new users, but please be sure that no one is violating the prohibitions on abuse of multiple accounts which are set forth at the page on sockpuppetry; note also that the creation of new accounts by multiple users specifically to participate in and influence a disputed issue is against policy. MastCell Talk 19:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
One of the most prolific posters in the poppers article is the person named Hank Wilson, who is well known as an aggressive anti-popper person. As an AIDS researcher myself (unwilling to post using my name) I am familiar with Wilson and his associates John Lauritsen, Peter Duesberg, Harry Haverkos and others as well as with their many theories over the years about poppers being the cause of AIDS, KS, and a myriad of other maladies.
This article must be careful if it is to achieve NPOV. Many if not most of Wilson's references have been not only flawed but sometimes duplicates and have even presented conflicting results which he himself has then interpreted as negative toward poppers. Some of his postings have put a negative spin on poppers no matter what the actual article he references may have said about poppers, good or bad.
A typical tactic of Wilson and his associates is changing the subject, as he did when he was not able to present a credible argument earlier in this discussion page about immune system issues; he abruptly switched the subject to the International AIDS Conference and some unsubstantiated claim about a presenter who had a "slide projection".
The article should be watched for potential sabotage. 65.199.96.2 20:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm tempted to remove or completely rewrite the Chemistry section, but I'd like to see if there's a consensus here. IMO, there should only be a very brief overview here, with {{ main}} at the top linking to Alkyl nitrites. Does anyone have any other opinions? me_and 11:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The article is looking pretty good these days.
Does it make sense to nominate it for some kind of notice or award from Wikipedia? (It might be a good idea to try to find a better photo then the one that's on the main page right now.) Munatobe7 18:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Should a rambling attack on poppers as the cause of AIDS and KS, given at a gay symposium 8 years ago, be included as a credible source in this article (see "added quote from cited source" by Meand 7 June 2007)? If so, shouldn't a reasoned response to it also be included in the article?
Just asking....... Nospinhere 18:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Article says that popper damage to the immune system goes away after a few days. What if the use is relatively constant - more than every few days. How long does it take to kill the immune system . Once dead or damaged does the immune system regenerate. How many days/months/years/etc of constant use ( or often enough so the immune system can't recover ) does it take to ruin the immune system ? Is this distinquishable from AIDS? 159.105.80.141 15:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Citation (19) says damage that can be undone. I suspect there has not been much study beyond what this citation mentions. Wiki - Poppers cites this so I assumed that poppers are immune system unfriendly on a one time basis - just guessed that continued use might be unwise. Should the citation stay - the sentence? 159.105.80.141 17:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about Reagan and poppers but a quick check of the internet says that poppers are illegal and dangerous as hell. You are basically sniffing gas - their legal use is as video head cleaners. Amyl nitrate is totally illegal, if your pharmacy carries it then call the cops. I believe amyl nitrate is the poison of choice - the head cleaner stuff is weaker. I suspect that in 1984 Mr Novitch wasn't totally up on this stuff - check out the web for yourself on this one but it didn't seem safe to me - once maybe but who does anything fun once. 159.105.80.141 18:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)If you type i "poppers immune'" the second thing I got from 1999 - post Novitch - was a study showing 300% increase in cancer etc - other sites get better. 159.105.80.141 18:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I have no dog i the fight over those who want to take poppers going their own way - but for those who are looking for some good (as in correct ) information I suggest you look up poppers and immune system on the internet. AIDS.org is quite at odds with much of this article.
Reagan's time is some years back and his expertise in the immune system probably was cursory at best - I have seen nowhere but wiki that seems to think that poppers are safe and nondamaging. Maybe you have some links as to their mild effects.?
159.105.80.141 19:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I checked out the above links - the one about pet hypthoses was interesting ( the guy certainly had a pet theory himself if appeared - HIV or nothing ( too bad that not all AIDS patients seem to have HIV, but he tried). The other study was very old. 159.105.80.141 19:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I didn't delve into their catalogs but it appears that some of the sites minimizing the effects of poppers also sell them - they truely put their(your) money where their mouth is. This whole story seems to have hit an emotional nerve - not amiable to much science ( like telling my brother that drinking is causing his liver to die ).
159.105.80.141 12:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there any reason for maintaining this as separate from the Alkyl nitrite article? This is the only drug article I know of that does this, everything from ecstasy to Dextromethorphan to methamphetamine is covered in a single unified article that documents both pharmacology and sociology. The split was done a ways back, but it might be time to reconsider and try merging the two. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 01:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Having recently discovered this article and the arguments here, I did a search on MEDLINE and found this [1] of which "Controlled clinical trials to examine this potential correlation have not been conducted, and the use of nitrites simply may be a marker for other high-risk behaviors such as unprotected sex." is the key sentence. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who can access the full text of the article. But, taking the abstract on face value, this indicates that there is no reliable evidence of a link between the aggravation of HIV infection and the action of poppers on the human body. Given that MEDLINE shows no more recent publication on this link, a NPOV requires stating that there is njo concrete evidence that supports the claims of such a link. -- Peter cohen 21:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Isobutyl nitrite was nominated by the Consumer Products Saftety Commission to the National Toxicology Program for toxicology and carcinogenicity studies because of its possible contribution to the high incidence of Kaposi's Sarcoma among gay AIDS patients and because of the lack of available data on the potential carcinogenicity of isobutyl nitrite. The 1996 assessment concluded that there was clear evidence of carcinogenic activity of isobutyl nitrite. See PubMed PMID:12594527. This is a significant risk that should be included in the health risks section. Hankwilson 22:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This NIDA sponsored research by Dax EM et al, (Pubmed PMID #: 2902516) found popper inhalation by humans to be immunosuppressive. This is a significant risk factor that should be included in the health risks section. The study demonstrated that natural killer cell function was significantly suppressed. It took 4 days for the immune system to recover and then the immune system stayed stimulated which is hazardous if a user had been exposed to HIV.HIV replication is dependent on a stimulated immune system.
The article should cite the original research instead of a health columnist. "4 days" should replace "a few days". And there needs to be an inclusion that the immune system stayed stimulated. Portraying a "return to normal" is inaccurate.
The interpretation of the research findings can include multiple perspectives but the findings of immunosuppression should be included. NPOV would allow for the research limitations and variable interpretations to be included. NPOV would not allow omission of this important research finding. Hankwilson 22:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The link has been demonstrated multiple times in published epidemiological research. Whether the link is causal or correlational is unknown. NPOV allows inclusion of the published research findings and conclusions. NPOV allows qualification that whether the link is causal or correlational is unknown. Hankwilson 22:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Hank, in your absence the poppers article had finally become stable. But now that you've resurfaced using your familiar tactics again, the discussion page has suddenly exploded with multiple new sections containing alarmist section titles.
Instead of starting up a shouting match again, would you be willing to allow a more civil discussion to take place around your suggestions that poppers are inherently dangerous. Would you be willing to calm down and take a more measured approach to making your case by presenting credible support for your statements rather than shouting at us with headlines atop ever more new sections? Munatobe7 23:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
It is tempting to add a new heading titled "TIRED OLD PISSING MATCH" to this page. Does no one, especially Hank Wilson, read the guidelines at the top of this page?
Within five blocks of my NYC home, there are at least 20 establishments that sell poppers. Thousands of bottles. If people were really getting ill, or worse, dying from the use of these products, wouldn't it be in the news?
Of course risky sex leads to HIV infection. If one is to indict popper use in that equation, then why not include lube, air, even incandescent light to the list, since they are likely present during risky sex also? The PRESENCE of poppers does not prove their CAUSE of risky behavior or HIV infection. One has only to look at the numbers (how many people use poppers vs. the rate of infection) to see the absurdity of such a claim. The idea that poppers cause risky sexual behavior is fantasical, neither factual nor scientific, as is the idea that sniffing this chemical suddenly causes someone to lose control of their ability to govern their behavior. Where are there people claiming, "I wouldn't be HIV-positive if I hadn't used poppers?"
What is truly unfortunate about this ongoing spitting match is that: 1) People seeking unbiased information on poppers are likely to be misled, or just turned off, by the overwhelming repetition and bias in these postings, and 2) People won't know who/what to trust for information when truly dangerous substances (such as crystal meth) merit warning bells (see the late Peter Jenning's courageous and informative ABC News special on Ecstasy, and how the government's mishandling/misinformation about that drug has lead to a lack of governmental credibility regarding actual drug hazards).
Please, for the sake of truth and in the name of civility, LET THIS END. All sides have stated their cases. There is clearly nothing more factual to add to the discussion. Quit trying to get the last word. Let THIS be the last word, and trust readers discern for themselves the truth about poppers.
This NIDA sponsored research by Dax EM et al, (Pubmed PMID #: 2902516) found popper inhalation by humans temporarily boosted the immune system. This is a significant factor that should be included in the health risks section.
The study demonstrated that the human immune system was temporarily boosted with a spike in function proving that improving the immune system is a positive side effect of poppers.
The interpretation of the research findings can include multiple perspectives but the findings of an immune system boost should be included. NPOV would allow for the research limitations and variable interpretations to be included. NPOV would not allow omission of this important research finding. Scientistdoc 03:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
People, let's not make a new heading on this page every time someone sneezes, okay? If you'd like to suggest improvement to a particular area of the article then making a clean heading for "Health Issues", for example, rather than sensationalist comments. -- John T. Folden 04:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The sole human study to date on popper use concludes: "The results showed that exposure to amyl nitrite can induce changes in immune function even after short exposure to moderate doses. Several tests of immune function showed an "overshoot" over basal activity at 7 days following nitrite inhalation after an initial immunosuppression. A possible interpretation of the results would be that nitrites cause a cycling of immune activity between suppressed and nonspecific stimulated levels. This situation might result in a period of immunosuppression followed by a proliferative period in which virus-containing cells propagate in the presence of a nondirected immunosresponse."
While the National Toxicology Programm(NTP) demonstrated toxicity and carcinogenicity in rats and mice, NIDA's Dax study PMID assessed immunological effects of popper inhalation by humans. Natural killer cell activity showed an initial significant decrease, then returned to baseline levels by day 4 post-inhalation. The Dax human research (1988 PMID 2902516 and 1991 PMID 1685501) is worthy of noting because its a human inhalation study and compliments the findings of most of the animal inhalation studies: poppers effect the immune system. Admittedly, there are limitations of the research and whether the findings are negated is controversial.The controvery could be articulated with the goal of letting readers decide.
The Dax findings should be relayed to readers to foster an informed choice. Alternative perspectives should be included. Seems this multiple perspective inclusion fits in with NPOV .
The article should reference the demonstrated finding: inhalation of poppers by humans resulted in an initial immunosuppression effecting natural killer cell activity taking 4 days to recover to baseline followed by a 7 day cycle of immune stimulation.
Seems we have agreement that more research is needed. Prevalence of use warrants more research. Correlation with risky sex and HIV infection warrant more research. Hankwilson 06:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 06:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I continue to meet gay men who are clueless, or misinformed, or confused about the research on poppers. My goal is to inform consumers and potential consumers about the hazards of popper use so that they can make an informed choice. We had the opportunity to ban poppers in SF back in 1982 and we(Bay Area Physicians for Human Rights, the gay and lesbian doctors organization) opted for an education strategy. We passed a point of sale warning law in 1982.West Hollywood and California followed our model in 1986 and passed a similar law. The need to educate continues.See the Seattle survey of 276 gay men. It is online. It shows the community wants information. Hankwilson 21:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 21:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
From the Journal of Neuroimmune Pharmacology (2006) 1: 317-322. Abstract: Because inhalant nitrites were thought to be rapidly cleared from the body, the lay literature has somewhat downplayed their toxicity. However, scientific reports have documented their immunosuppressive effects in animals, and epidemiological studies have implicated their use with the development of Kaposi's sarcoma (KS) in humans. Because inhalant nitrites are exogenous nitric oxide donors, we hypothesized that these substances of abuse might exert part of their toxicological effects through this biochemical product, which has been shown to alter gene regulation and angiogenesis. In a series of studies, we showed that acute and chronic in vivo exposure to isobutyl nitrite produced significant tissue-dependent alterations in the expression of a number of cancer-and angiogenesis-related genes in mice. In particular, hepatic mRNA and protein expression of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) was significantly stimulated. The in vivo growth rate of a subcutaneous VEGF-responsive tumor was also shown to be accerlerated by inhalant nitrite exposure. Because the development of KS is extensively linked to VEGF and its receptors, the purported link between inhalant nitrites and KS may be explained mechanistically, at least in part, through the stimulation of VEGF expression by these inhalants.
You can find this article online by doing a Google search: "Journal of Neuroimmune Pharmacology"; . The article's reference list is extensive and indicates multiple published research studies. The article takes issue with Andrew Weil's dismissal of poppers having any hazards.
The Ho-Leun Fung research group is funded by National Institutes of Drug Abuse to study immunospressive effects of poppers. The work builds on the previously NIDA funded work by the Soderberg group which demonstrated that poppers were immunosuppressive.
Some have discounted the immunosuppression findings. It has been demonstrated that poppers are immunosuppressive and this hazard of popper use should be included in a credible section on the health risks of poppers. The nuances of dosing, quantity, frequency of use, degrees of hazard should be included also.
This discussion overtime has illustrated that the perspective on poppers remains controversial. I support inclusion of the various perspectives on poppers and the research to date to facilitate a NPOV. Hankwilson 05:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 05:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
for the article "Effects of inhalant nitrites on VEGF expression: a feasible link to Kaposi's sarcoma." by Ho-Leung Fung and Donah C. Tran in Journal of Neuroimmune Pharmacology (2006) 1:317-322.
A couple of things. First off to Hank. Do NOT remove other users comments from a Talk page such as this, unless they are clearly vandalism. That was most certainly not the case with the ones you removed earlier. If you have a legitimate complaint with a post then there are proper channels but you can't remove something just because you don't wish to deal with it or have other people see it. If you're directly connected to the issue in any way, I think it should be noted. Secondly, please refrain from continually making new headers for articles that all center around the Health Issues section of the page. It just makes a mess and there's no reason to have them continually separated as we are NOT here to debate each and every article or report in existence.
As a general note, I'd like to politely suggest that we NOT continually bring up new articles and sources for inclusion unless they are going to dramatically change how we look at the Health Issues section. Personally, I think the Health Issues section is already getting MUCH too wordy. It was nicely concise just a couple of weeks ago and is starting to creep into cruft again, imo. I think it would be nice if we could streamline that section just a bit, again. -- John T. Folden 01:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Hank, you state that John T Folden is "mistaken about you removing material". You tell him it "was someone else", and that you "also did not get to see it...". Then you say that you assumed it was "another ad hominem attack" which someone else removed. But if you go back up and read it, you'll see that you actually RESPONDED to it after your deletion of it was reverted! What's your problem? That's a bold-faced lie. (Or am I missing something here?)
First you delete a legitimate post this morning, then you lie about it, then you delete another post tonight, then you cut and paste some of the deleted post and add it to some stuff you come up with trying to make it appear it's all yours.
This is exactly the kind of stuff you find on the site with your book, where you use the same kind of tactics. You can get by with that on your private wiki because you lock out comments, but you won't get by with it here. That kind of stuff is vandalism. Scientistdoc 06:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Any reaction to this published article?
I think the part about Andrew Weil's assessments of dangers of popper use are especially pertinent. Hankwilson 08:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 08:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
A review is welcome on deletions as well as personal attacks. I will use this format for making input. I think this format has no deletion results. Not so sure about other option.
There is a live controversy between those who believe that popper use is a significant hazard and those who do not. The current article does not do justice to the controversy. There is plenty of space on wikipedia to have a full inclusion of the controversy. Can hazards of popper use be included? Can research results be included? Can recommendations of AIDS researchers and prevention workers be included? How does a NPOV for the article allow for divergent opinions to be included in an article? Hankwilson 08:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 08:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Hank, how about it. Do you think we should create a new section with this NIDA (National Institute on Drug Abuse) Research information: "The recreational use of inhalants such as amyl and butyl nitrite has become more common in the last decade. We are not aware of any data to suggest direct neurotoxicity associated with the abuse of these substances. "
This is from the National Institute on Drug Abuse. It's a 1990 Research Monograph Series called 'Residual Effects of Abused Drugs on Behavior'.
NIDA Research Monographs are indexed in the Index Medicus and are included in the coverage of American Statistics Index, BioSciences Information Service, Chemical Abstracts, Current Contents, Psychological Abstracts, and Psychopharmacology Abstract.
How about it, should we create a new section with this info? It's never been discussed on this Talk page.
(This may rightfully be tossed because someone might consider it an incitement to vandalism, but it's just a joke to demonstrate the absurdity of what Hank Wilson is doing. ) Scientistdoc 09:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The deletions in question can be viewed here. (I'm sure there's a tidier way to link to these but I'm not yet sure how):
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Poppers&diff=next&oldid=138139432
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Poppers&diff=next&oldid=138280701
Now, I see people reply incorrectly all the time (which I can give the benefit of the doubt that you did that when attempting to respond to my specific comments). HOWEVER, the two posts that you removed, were removed very cleanly. It doesn't look to me like the type of thing to happen accidently. Just my POV of the subject. I'd also like to ask again that you not keep making new sections for each article suggestion. Simply add it onto the end of the Health Issues discussion section. -- John T. Folden 17:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Which ic in Jungle Juice? and is the effect different depending on which nitrate uded or just the strength? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.192.91.4 ( talk) 15:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
There are now two clean-up tags in the article which I feel the team of editors in this discussion topic should work to remove.
The less controversial one is the trivia tag. I feel there is some value in having some material on poppers in culture, (popular or otherwise,) with an indication that it appeared in works from the 1970s onwards, often ones with a sexual theme (Score, Queer As Folk etc.) What is not needed is a collection fancruft like the reference to them in the first line of a NOFX song - one of my favourite bands but it's trivia - unless there are no other references to poppers in songs after 2000 and there is a source looking at nitrites going out of vogue.
The votes are in and the winner is: "No merge". Is it time to get rid of the 'merge' tag, too? Scientistdoc 23:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
As far as the NPOV tag on the health section is concerned, I feel the article is currently neutral. Are there any issues highlighted in systematic reviews in peer-reviewed journals or by medical or pharmacological references of the nature of Merck that are not included in the section? With one-eyed material being published by both pro- and anti- authors, I feel it reasonably to set the bar at this level on what to include. -- Peter cohen 18:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Right. Let's have another go at agreeing that we have achieved NPOV. I vote yes. -- Peter cohen 10:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I have just archived most of the conversations on this page; the vast majority had very little to do with the article. It already says this above, but if editors could please remember that Wikipedia is not a forum. Per the warning template at the top of this page, it is acceptable to delete comments that are devoted to the discussion of the benefits and risks of poppers. Saying that the article should say x as cited at y is acceptable and encouraged. Saying that poppers are fun/dangerous/whatever does not contribute to the article and only serves to make the talk page harder to follow for other editors. me_and 09:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not a graphics designer, so if anyone has any suggestions about changes, don't be shy about saying so. :-) Munatobe7 03:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The sales in the United States are illegal. The brands shown have chemical formulas which are illegal to sell and distribute as poppers. Hankwilson 01:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 01:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I just caught an attempt by an anonymous editor (apparently located in the Denver, Colorado area) to completely delete an entire section, with no good reason given. Please do not delete sections from this article without discussion and consensus first.
An international team of editors has worked diligently for quite some time to bring the poppers article into compliance with NPOV, and to futher enhance and improve it. Please do not make arbitrary deletions. It is requested that you give these hard-working editors the respect they deserve by discussing your concerns and proposed changes to this article on this talk page before making any significant changes.
Depending on the nature of your edit, disregarding this request may result in a reversion of your edits without discussion and/or a report of vandalism.
Thank you for your cooperation. Munatobe7 01:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Peter, I note the upset editor earlier today who deleted the "Users" section. I think I know why he's upset.
I've closely read the TIME Magazine and Wall Street Journal articles on poppers and it's clear that the use of poppers is not confined primarily to gays and drug-users. I suspect that the 1988 study you found was biased due to the fact that it was undertaken in an area known for high crime and drug use in general -- the Baltimore-Washington DC area, which is still true today.
Both the TIME and Wall Street Journal investigations found that popper use was spread across a wide spectrum of people, from construction workers ("I carry a bottle with me all the time," 28 year old California carpenter Ron Braun told TIME), to a "trendy East Side NYC couple at a chic NYC nightclub, to disco dancers, and from a "Los Angeles businesswoman in the middle of a particularly hectic public-relations job" who confided to the WSJ author that "I could really use a popper now."
I've taken the liberty to edit only the first paragraph in the Users section to better accommodate the upset editor and to more fully describe the results of the media's investigation. Munatobe7 06:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I hope this doesn't turn into a big deal, but I though it best to separate the images issue just in case it does. It'll be easier to keep it all in one place on the Talk page.
Hank, your objection to the images in the article are noted. But it's difficult to do justice to a description of the history of poppers in an encyclopedia or on Wikipedia, without mentioning RUSH® or Locker Room® just as you can't describe the history of automobiles, soft drinks or toothpaste without mentioning Chevy® or Ford®, Coke® or Pepsi®, or Crest® or Colgate®. RUSH® and Locker Room® are the brands most often mentioned in the media reports of the time. I think the RUSH® image (which is a decades-old promotional advertisement in a major men's magazine), instead of the amyl nitrite image I'd first used, is a much better example of the "aggressive marketing" that is being reported on by the TIME and Wall Street Journal articles referenced in that section.
I have to say, I think your objections ring hollow. In searching for appropriate images to use, I discovered that on sites where you are either affiliated or where your anti-popper book is promoted, there are numerous images or photos of branded poppers, including past advertisements for various brands. In fact I took the "amyl nitrite" ad directly from this site (Which is one of the reasons I did not know how to account for its copyright status). On this page on that same site there are at least 16 other images of past promotional advertisements for branded poppers.
The entire editing team (including moi) has spent a lot of time and undertaken a lot of hard work to get this article to a point where it's stable and a potential nominee for a Wikipedia "Good Article" award, and we have been sensitive to your many complaints and suggestions. But, with all due respect, your close relationship to this subject, as a well-known anti-popper activist, and your apparent lack of objectivity, seems to be making it hard for you to accept a NPOV in this article. None the less, if you have constructive criticisms they are welcome, and if you have any images you think might be appropriate for the article we'd like to see them. Munatobe7 03:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The federal ban on sales of alkyl nitrites went into effect in 1991. A reference is needed for that and it could be one of the existing references...2002 CPSC memo might. Hankwilson 18:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 18:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted the edit about the UK until discussion takes place. I looked at the page linked to but cannot find anything that says sale is prohibited. Can you lead us to the text that shows that sales are prohibited? Also, do you have any idea why sales still allowed? Perhaps it's due to various formualtions?
Also, we're trying to clean up the article and are listing support as references/footnotes, not inline links to the articles. If this info is to be included it should be woven into the text. Munatobe7 21:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
"NTP Toxicology and Carcinogenesis Studies of Isobutyl Nitrite (CAS No, 542-56-3) in F344 Rats and B6C3F1 Mice (Inhalation Studies) in National Toxicology Program Technical Report Services 1996 July; 448:1-302. Hankwilson 07:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 07:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
According to the European Trade Only publication, ETO, isobutyl nitrite is now listed as a toxin, and as of 8/24/07 is illegal in the UK and Europe: http://erotictradeonly.com/content/news/article89.php?id=1
Their article states that the legislation, the 29th amendment to 76/769/EEC of the EU Directive, now classifies isobutyl nitrite as a toxin, which means it will be illegal to sell publicly in Europe and the UK.
The article also says that a leading UK manufacturer is now making isopropyl nitrite instead, and is recalling any isobutyl nitrite poppers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mistressplaid ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
i suggest that a separate paragraph be devoted to ks and poppers which includes a reference to the Ho-leung Fung "VEGF expression" finding which was referenced in the article "Effects of inhalant nitrites on VEGF expression; a feasible link to Kaposi's sarcoma/" journal of neuroimmune pharmacology. For consideration the fulltext online available free at
www.springerlink.com/content/73h7w882j6616514/fulltext.html
Hankwilson 19:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 19:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
i will be submitting some information on the enforcement of the ban, the prosecution, fines, etc for violators of the ban on sales in the United States. Soliciting feedback prior to adding to article. Hankwilson 19:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 19:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Peter, just read your edit to the legality section. Well done. Thanks. (Hate to ask, but have you given any thought to how to deal with the trivia section?) Munatobe7 23:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Hank, the changes you were attempting to make today, and then reversed because you want to include even more information, serve as a reminder that Wikipedia is not a discussion forum.
Also, we'd already pretty much agreed that it's not a good idea to begin to muddy up the article with the minutia of the smallest detail about this and that relative to enforcement, etc. John T Folden reminded us that "This type of info, if overdone, strikes me as being un-encyclopedic".
Also, as Peter Cohen pointed out a few weeks ago: " Wikipedia:Summary style indicates to me that the US subsection is quite big enough already for a top-level article on poppers. After all this is an international encyclopaedia. There is a potential to spin off a separate article on the law on poppers around the world. Obviously if people from various countries start popping up and supplying info on the law where they are to the detail we have on the countries discussed so far, then we would have to do so and keep a summary that describes the types of variation that can occur. Issues concerning systemic bias would require similar treatment to be allowed to that which the current countries receive. There is also the possibility of a separate article on the law on poppers and enforcement in the US, but that would depend on how things are seen on the grand scale of things. I can imagine some people wanting to delete such an article as not satisfying Wikipedia:Notability, but I'm not familiar enough wiht how it is implemented to know one way or the other."
As written, the article currently does a good job of telling the story in an encyclopedic manner. If you want to make substantial changes, such as those in your reversed edit today, would you mind not making changes or adding things without first discussing on the talk page? That would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation. Munatobe7 02:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I backed out an unreferenced insertion of new information.
A quick google suggests that HHV8 infection is a necessary condition for KS. But that is too weak a claim to definitively take poppers out of the picture. My understanding is that HHV8 is an opportunistic infection that takes advantage of weaknesses causes by other factors, notably HIV infection. The dispute is whether poppers are one of the factors that give HHV8 an edge. -- Peter cohen 13:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Researcher Drumright looked and found evidence for poppers use being a causal risk factor for HIV infection.
The epidemiolgogy studies find associations between popper use and both HHV-8 infection and also development of Kaposi's Sarcoma.
The point of sale warnings were proposed by both health educators and health authorities. And the cautioning and mandated point of sale warnings were motivated by both the link to HIV infections as well as Kaposi's Sarcoma.
It is not legal to market any alkyl nitrite for use as poppers. The previous wording needed to be clearer about what was banned. Hankwilson 22:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Munatobe7 04:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The 1983 mandated warning:
"WARNING: These products contain alkyl nitrites ("Poppers"}. Inhaling or swallowing alkyl nitrites may be harmful to your health. These chemicals can cause skin rashes, nasal iritation, sinus or lung infections, and rarely severe anemia. Inhaling concentrated alkyl nitrite vapors may cause you to faint and could be very dangerous if you have a hidden heart disease.Whether continued inhalation of alkyl nitrites may affect the immune system is not known, but several different studies have suggested that some impairment of the immune system is possible."
"WARNING: These products contain alkyl nitrites ("Poppers"). Inhaling or swallowing alkyl nitrite may be harmful to your health. The use of alkyl nitrites may affect the immune system. Several studies have suggested that the use is associated with the development of Kaposi's sarcoma (an AIDS condition)."
Journal of Toxicology and Clinical Toxicology; 20(5),421-449.1983.
Vol. 78; 811-816.
The current wording does not seem neutral, but dismissive about poppers use being a significant risk hazard for HIV infection and risky sexual behaviors leading to HIV infection. It needs rewording so that the research indicating risk is not dismissed. Hankwilson 22:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
And what evidence apart from a bald assertion do you have for the claim in this section title? -- Peter cohen 23:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
PMID 1685501 Dax E. 1991; PMID 2902516 Dax E. 1988; PMID 6235910 Lotzova E. 1984; PMID 6142118 Jacobs R. 1983; PMID 6186374 Hersh EM. 1983; PMID 2902514 Mirvish S. 1988; PMID 3140019 Maickel R. 1988; PMID 2902515 Ortiz J. 1988; PMID 2569972 Dunkel V. 1989; PMID 84622528 Mirvish S. 1993; PMID 1835258 Soderberg L. 1991; PMID 1778367 Soderberg L. 1991; PMID 8284799 Soderberg L. 1994; PMID 8787659 Soderberg L. 1996; PMID 8605963 Soderberg L. 1996; PMID 8647236 Soderberg L. 1996; PMID 8864129 Soderberg L. 1996; PMID 9439769 Soderberg L. 1997; PMID 9610684 Soderberg L. 1998; PMID 10048747 Soderberg L. 1999; PMID 10906432 Guo G. 2000; PMID 10964667 Keilbassa W. 2000; PMID 11310851 Ponnappan U. 2001; PMID 14521929 Tran D. 2003; PMID 15222982 Ponnappan U. 2004; PMID 15294346 Soderberg L. 2004; Hankwilson 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The 1988 Kennedy Committee conclusions need to be removed or contextualized so that reference is made to the subsequent(post 1988) body of published research showing poppers are immunosuppressive, and significant risk factors for HIV infection and HHV-8 infection. Congress as a whole banned the sale and distribution because of the links to HIV infection and KS despite the Kennedy Committee. The Congressional impetus for banning poppers was because of concerns about the links with HIV and KS . In addition, the NIDA monograph issued in 1988, indicated that poppers were immunosuppressive and potentially effecting HIV infection...the human study by Elizabeth Dax. The Kennedy report ignored the human study done by Dax and NIDA. Hankwilson 22:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In this study using eight HIV- male volunteers, the investigators found that amyl nitrite inhalation caused an initial suppression in immune function that was followed by an overshoot seven days after cessation of drug. This study had a low sample number and was not repeated. These results are also contradictory to results obtained by other research groups. If the work presented in this paper is accurate, one could interpret the overshoot in immune activity as evidence for nitrite use causing an increase in immune function. This conclusion refutes Wilson's proposal that nitrites are harmful to the immune system. Soderberg (1996) Inhaled isobutyl nitrite produced lung inflammation with increased macrophage TNF-a and nitric oxide production. AIDS, Drugs of Abuse, and the Neuroimmune Axis, Ed. Friedman et al., Plenum Press, New York, 187. This article contains the same information as a previously discussed Soderberg publication (Toxicology Letters, 104:35) with the same flaws. This is an example of an investigator increasing the volume of their work by publishing duplicative results. Soderberg and Barnett (1995) Inhalation exposure to isobutyl nitrite inhibits macrophage tumoricidal activity and modulates inducible nitric oxide. Journal of Leukocyte Biology, 57:135. This paper is a repeat of experiments (Toxicology Letters, 104:35) by the same author, except the tumoricidal activity of peritoneal rather than lung macrophages was measured. Interestingly, Soderberg obtained the opposite results between the two publications. For instance, in these experiments, there was a decrease in tumoricidal activity that returns in two weeks, which contradicts their 1996 publication showing an increase in tumoricidal activity of macrophages. Other data presented by Soderberg demonstrated that nitrite exposure increased TNF-a production by itself or in combination with interferon, but caused no change in response to lipopolysaccharide or interferon and lipopolysaccharide (stimulators of TNF-a production). In contrast, the other report stated that there was no effect of nitrite treatment on TNF-a production in either the absence or presence of interferon, but an increase in TNF-a production in the presence of lipopolysaccharide or lipopolysaccharide and interferon. Finally, the 1995 study reported a decrease in nitric oxide production stimulated by lipopolysaccharide and interferon, which contradicts the 1996 study. Interestingly, the author did not discuss these discrepancies. When an investigator publishes results that are the opposite of each other, one cannot derive conclusions from their work." Munatobe7 04:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
2. As for the credibility of the researchers being called into question, who is doing that calling? what is the credibility of the critiquers? I request it be presented for evaluation. 3. I feel the Dax human study of the effects of poppers on the human immune system had significant findings. Not an animal study, a human study. Natural killer cell function suppressed 30% immediately after 3 inhalations. Where is a credible critique of that study? 4. Some research cited in the current article can be supplanted with better ones and rewording can improve balance. Some current references can be supplanted with more credible ones. I will suggest and justify replacements, rewordings, and integrating additions of new research which you can evaluate. The goal is to improve the article. It may take time to improve the article. 5. As for including reference that is almost 2 decades old, the 1988 Kennedy Committee report, why include a 1988 recommendation that was made prior the context of the bulk of the immunosuppression research surfacing? 6. The Congressional ban on distribution and sale of poppers was in the context of an AIDS epidemic which had no effective treatments and an accumulating body of research showing that poppers were immunosuppressive and associated with KS and risky sexual behavior and HIV infections. Gay constituents pressured Rep. Mel Levine and Henry Waxman(both Los Angeles) on this issue and used the research findings as rationale. The poppers industry lobbied against the ban, but failed. You can review the archives of Bruce Voeller at Cornell University for verification of their failed attempts to stop the ban. 7.As for duplicates being in the bibliography. Duplicates in the sense that a study by one author was in 2 different journals, or an abstract from a conference might have been included. The purpose was to reflect whereever the information might be located. Some libraries have one journal, but not another. By knowing all possible information sources, interested parties can maximize finding something in their location. I don't believe there is a need for padding. In recent bibliographies, I highlight the Dax human study because it is more relevant to humans than mice studies. Hankwilson 23:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 23:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
James Goedert, MD, PhD National Cancer Institute; JR Neefe, Georgetown University; Richard Jacobs, MD National Center for Toxicological Research; Evan Hersh, Dept. of Clinical Immunonology and Biological Therapy at M.D. Anderson Hospital and Tumor Institute, Houston, Texas; Guy Newell, MD Department of Cancer Prevention, M.D. Anderson Hospital; Eva Lotzova, MD, Dept. of Clinical Immunology and Biological Therapy, M. D. Anderson Hospital; User Mather-Wagh MD Dept of Medicine and Pathology, Beth Israel Medical Center; Elizabeth Dax, MD Addiction Research Center, National Institute of Drug Abuse; Lee Soderberg, PhD Dept. of Microbiology and Immunology at University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences; DC Tran, PhD University Buffalo, Buffalo; Ho-Leung Fung, PhD Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences,University of Buffalo, NY;
I'm not aware that any researcher claims that the research to date is definitive. Researchers have posed questions for future research. More research is needed.
The Dax study was formative research. Thus only 8 participants were used. NIDA did the human study because of Congressional mandate prodded by Rep. Henry Waxman of LA. Congress ordered the NIDA study and required a report back within 6 months. This could explain the small number. Budget limitations could explain the small number. The initial Dax study was followed by an 18 participant study. NIDA subsequently returned to study mice/rats...its usual vehicle for toxicology studies.
As for the issue of the immune system showing an "overshoot" over baseline activity at 7 days following nitrite inhalation after the initial immunosuppression: First, initial immunosuppression could increase susceptibility to infection if exposed to HIV, HHV-8, other infections. Second, Dax states:" A possible interpretation of the results would be that nitrites cause a cycling of immune activity between suppressed and nonspecific stimulated levels. This situation might result in a period of immunosuppression followed by a proliferative period in which virus-containing cells propagate in the presence of a nondirected immunoresponse. In the community, nitrites are often used in an eposidic manner, which may facilitate such cyclic changes."
I agree that the study should be replicated. Dax did conduct a second study on humans using 18 male HIV negative volunteers: "Amyl nitrite alters human in vitro immune function." Immunopharmacology and Immunotoxicology 1991;13(4):577-587.
I recommend that NIDA do a human study on the effects of poppers on the human immune system. We can now measure impact on HIV viral load as well as HHV-8 viral load and there are additional immune system markers available compared to 1987. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hankwilson ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC) Hankwilson 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
That error of attribution was corrected. Thanks for the notice and apology for the mistake. Hankwilson 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
In the first section of the article it is stated:
Some men report that a reduction in erection stiffness can interfere with sexual performance.[1]
The author cites source number one, yet an inspection of the source says nothing to that respect. I'm not even sure that the effect of a nitric oxide donor would have that effect. I believe that that sentence should be removed. What does everyone else think?
Ajmbc 04:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I've rephrased it in terms of what is said in the source.-- Peter cohen 10:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
HIV acquisition is a significant health concern. Merck fails to incorporate the published research about HIV acquisiton in gay men. The placement change gives better balance to the article. Hankwilson ( talk) 23:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson ( talk) 23:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I question the inclusion of the 1983 CPSC report. It is 25 years old, obsolete in the context of the subsequent published research about poppers. The article could have a historical developments section or a "Poppers Industry Position" section, and perhaps a "Public Health Position" section.
www.HIVinsite.com go to Knowledge base article about malignancies, then to the resource section box to find the bibliography of published and unpublished research(abstracts,presentations,unaccepted submission -Watson 1982).
www.poppers.cfsites.org also references of published research about poppers, public health and community responses to poppers use by gays and men who sex with men.
www.virusmythpoppersmyth.com has a critique of the published research. Alert that the website is a poppers industry promotion site.
The 1983 CPSC report has historical value but is unresponsive to the subsequent research published about poppers.
The Merck Manual may have general credibility, but its information about poppers is incomplete failing to reference the hazards demonstrated in the accumulating published research.(immunosuppressive, HIV transmission risk factor, HHV8 and KS risk factor).
Hankwilson ( talk) 15:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson ( talk) 15:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is fine as it stands. Please do not begin your past practice of popping up (no pun intended) every few months to begin the same arguments over and over again and start tearing the article apart.
Please do not alter the article unless you have substantial new news to report. You've been asked to behave on a number of occasions in the past; please adhere to those requests to avoid the possibility of being labeled a vandal.
As the article stands, it fairly represents both sides of the controversy and is the closest it's ever been to being a neutral article (NPOV). This has been a lot of work on the part of a lot of people, including your own valuable input, to get here -- so please do not upset it.
Munatobe7 ( talk) 20:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I plan on removing the following sentence in the current article: "Manufacturers reformulated their products to abide by the law, and today nitrite based products are sold as video head cleaner, polish remover or room odorants.[1]" The citation for this characture of the poppers industry's response is dated prior to the ban, and does not accurately reflect popper industry behavior post ban.
The law enforcement section needs to include that the 1990 law has been enforced on individual sellers and that the industry has been fined for violations of CPSC regulations. A section on The CPSC record to date needs to be included. There are also local and state regulations of poppers which need to be included to accurately reflect what is happening in the United States today.
Hankwilson (
talk) 16:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)Hankwilson
Hankwilson (
talk) 16:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove the subject sentence. Also, kindly do not alter the article based on your comments above.
The current status of the sale of these products clearly reflects that the industry has obviously reformulated to circumvent the ban on specific nitrites, irrespective of the date of the citation you mention. It's still valid.
There is no need to go into the minutia contained in a listing of items around CPSC enforcement actions. This is not the place for that level of detail. This has been discussed ad nauseam in the past, remember?
Munatobe7 ( talk) 20:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Searching for information on Hank Wilson, according to published reports, he came up with the psudo-important sounding name, Committee to Monitor Poppers, to correspond with researchers and public officials about poppers while claiming to be an expert on the subject. He wrote a book, which you can find listed on Amazon.com, called "Death Rush", and claims to "have played a leading role in sounding the tocsin on the dangers of poppers."
The book is a very short but damming commentary on poppers which appears to lack much credible information (see the reviews by AIDS experts on Amazon.com). Much of the book comprises a list of research projects that had some connection to or mention of poppers -- but which have almost all been reviewed and tossed out as invalid for various reasons.
The book is found here: http://paganpressbooks.com/, and a review of it's research is found here: http://www.virusmythpoppersmyth.org/hank_wilson_references/
Wilson's vested interest in the subject of poppers, along with his toxic attitude towards poppers, explains his never-ending attempts to sabotage this article or slant it toward his anti-popper viewpoint, rather than work toward a NPOV. He would find it impossible to be a neutral voice in any discussion about poppers, either on Wikipedia, or elsewhere. A quick look back through the discussion pages on poppers proves that. 71.106.17.188 ( talk) 03:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Peter: I spent a bit of time expanding the 'History' section per the tag you'd placed there earlier. I hope it was ok to include the photo of Sir Lauder Brunton. He perhaps could rightfully be called the 'grandfather' of poppers -- or at least amyl nitrite.
Munatobe7 ( talk) 20:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
In the movie, The Professional, does anyone know if the pills Stansfield ( Gary Oldman) pops during the film are poppers? Judging by the way he cracks them in his teeth, then gets some sort of immediate reaction from them, I suspect that they may in fact be poppers. I've searched all over for some information to back this up, but all I can find is speculation, and not one mention of amyls.. Does a book or screenplay exist, perhaps? Weasel5i2 ( talk) 08:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
They cannot possibly be poppers since poppers are a liquid packed in bottles. I don't recall seeing the actor cracking the pills with his teeth. Even so, poppers don't come in pills and they are not taken by mouth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.167.198.121 ( talk) 17:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I just copyedited the article for style, wording, etc., and had a complete revert from Munatobe7. Wikipedia pages are not "owned" by the major current editors. The Wikipedia policy on reverting states that it is a serious measure that should only be used against vandalism (e.g., profanity/ nonsense). What I find frustrating with Munatobe7's complete revert is that it undoes EVERY change. Fine, disagree with some of the changes and change them. But to do a complete revert even undoes the edits that I imagine you would agree with, like joining orphan sentences into paragraphs. So you asked me to please discuss on talk page. So here is the request..............................The article has orphan sentences, grammar errors, and so on, and I would like to copyedit it for style. Now I suppose I wait for permission? OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 00:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi OnBeyondZebrax. Thanks for your edits to the poppers article. The reason I'd reverted all of them last night was that I was too tired to go through so many, and the only time the article has seen that many edits at one time has been when vandals have attacked it. In the talk section you'll see that, in the past, when any of us who have spent untold hours trying to build the article into a credible repository of accurate information on poppers have seen such large edits, we've reverted most of them because they almost all were the work of vandals.
Having had time now to go over your many edits, it's refreshing to have such a high quality contributor make needed edits!
Thanks again for your meaningful contribution!
Respectfull, Munatobe7 ( talk) 13:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm very impressed with how wonderful this poppers article has become. It's been a year or more since I last looked at it and back then it was a mess. Now it's full of relevant and credible information. This Kansas City resident is grateful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.33.161.130 ( talk) 11:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
A lot of people worked very hard to try to make this article as good as it could be. It's come a long way. Thanks for your kind remarks. Munatobe7 ( talk) 18:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
For over six months a notice has appeared in the "Availability and legality" section stating that "This section does not cite any references or sources.:, and further stating that 'unverifiable material may be challenged and removed."
I would agree that this section is full of un-sourced posts. Since it has been over half a year and no one has been able to verify the material, I propose to delete this section, unless a majority disagrees.
The article is very long and this will help streamline it.
Munatobe7 ( talk) 22:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Munatobe7 ( talk) 02:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Isoamyl Nitrate (CH3)2CHCH2CH2ONO
Ive only done half a degree in chemistry, but im almost certain that the second one doesnt have the amyl group that would qualify it as an Isoamyl nitrate. Can someone verfy and possibly correct this?
“ | Poppers have a low risk of harm to society and the individual compared to other recreational drugs. | ” |
The above assertion in the lede seems wildly inaccurate and rather dubious for the lede. Do we really have comprehensive studies on the impact of poppers on societal harm? And which other drugs is this compared to? Thoughts? -- Banjeboi 02:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC).
As a result of legal measures to control the manufacture, import and distribution of Poppers in certain areas of the world a new problem with these products has appeared. They are what is referred to as "Bathtub Brands" named to imply that they are made in bathtubs by underground manufacturers. These versions can be more dangerous than the manufactured version of the chemicals that are often used as inhalants because the contents are unknown and the manufacturers are not reputable. Not only do these brands infringe on Trademark ownership but there is no consistent chemical makeup making these versions extra dangerous and what's really troubling is that the packaging looks almost identical to the real versions. Popperpedia contains an article on how to identify fake poppers of the most popular PWD Brand distributed chemicals. It includes important information on how to distinguish based on the tamper proof seal and packaging.
While the use of these chemicals as inhalants is under scrutiny a new problem requiring more education for those making the personal choice to use these substances has surfaced with new and unknown risks and consequences.
I see that one section of the article repeatedly refers to alkyl nitrates rather than alkyl nitrites in connection with carcinogenicity. Is this intentional or a blooper? Everybody got to be somewhere! ( talk) 23:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
[Personal attacks removed]
I've noticed a proliferation of single-purpose accounts used solely to edit this article, or even solely to make comments on this talk page. I'll assume, for now, that these are all genuine new users, but please be sure that no one is violating the prohibitions on abuse of multiple accounts which are set forth at the page on sockpuppetry; note also that the creation of new accounts by multiple users specifically to participate in and influence a disputed issue is against policy. MastCell Talk 19:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
One of the most prolific posters in the poppers article is the person named Hank Wilson, who is well known as an aggressive anti-popper person. As an AIDS researcher myself (unwilling to post using my name) I am familiar with Wilson and his associates John Lauritsen, Peter Duesberg, Harry Haverkos and others as well as with their many theories over the years about poppers being the cause of AIDS, KS, and a myriad of other maladies.
This article must be careful if it is to achieve NPOV. Many if not most of Wilson's references have been not only flawed but sometimes duplicates and have even presented conflicting results which he himself has then interpreted as negative toward poppers. Some of his postings have put a negative spin on poppers no matter what the actual article he references may have said about poppers, good or bad.
A typical tactic of Wilson and his associates is changing the subject, as he did when he was not able to present a credible argument earlier in this discussion page about immune system issues; he abruptly switched the subject to the International AIDS Conference and some unsubstantiated claim about a presenter who had a "slide projection".
The article should be watched for potential sabotage. 65.199.96.2 20:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm tempted to remove or completely rewrite the Chemistry section, but I'd like to see if there's a consensus here. IMO, there should only be a very brief overview here, with {{ main}} at the top linking to Alkyl nitrites. Does anyone have any other opinions? me_and 11:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The article is looking pretty good these days.
Does it make sense to nominate it for some kind of notice or award from Wikipedia? (It might be a good idea to try to find a better photo then the one that's on the main page right now.) Munatobe7 18:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Should a rambling attack on poppers as the cause of AIDS and KS, given at a gay symposium 8 years ago, be included as a credible source in this article (see "added quote from cited source" by Meand 7 June 2007)? If so, shouldn't a reasoned response to it also be included in the article?
Just asking....... Nospinhere 18:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Article says that popper damage to the immune system goes away after a few days. What if the use is relatively constant - more than every few days. How long does it take to kill the immune system . Once dead or damaged does the immune system regenerate. How many days/months/years/etc of constant use ( or often enough so the immune system can't recover ) does it take to ruin the immune system ? Is this distinquishable from AIDS? 159.105.80.141 15:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Citation (19) says damage that can be undone. I suspect there has not been much study beyond what this citation mentions. Wiki - Poppers cites this so I assumed that poppers are immune system unfriendly on a one time basis - just guessed that continued use might be unwise. Should the citation stay - the sentence? 159.105.80.141 17:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about Reagan and poppers but a quick check of the internet says that poppers are illegal and dangerous as hell. You are basically sniffing gas - their legal use is as video head cleaners. Amyl nitrate is totally illegal, if your pharmacy carries it then call the cops. I believe amyl nitrate is the poison of choice - the head cleaner stuff is weaker. I suspect that in 1984 Mr Novitch wasn't totally up on this stuff - check out the web for yourself on this one but it didn't seem safe to me - once maybe but who does anything fun once. 159.105.80.141 18:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)If you type i "poppers immune'" the second thing I got from 1999 - post Novitch - was a study showing 300% increase in cancer etc - other sites get better. 159.105.80.141 18:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I have no dog i the fight over those who want to take poppers going their own way - but for those who are looking for some good (as in correct ) information I suggest you look up poppers and immune system on the internet. AIDS.org is quite at odds with much of this article.
Reagan's time is some years back and his expertise in the immune system probably was cursory at best - I have seen nowhere but wiki that seems to think that poppers are safe and nondamaging. Maybe you have some links as to their mild effects.?
159.105.80.141 19:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I checked out the above links - the one about pet hypthoses was interesting ( the guy certainly had a pet theory himself if appeared - HIV or nothing ( too bad that not all AIDS patients seem to have HIV, but he tried). The other study was very old. 159.105.80.141 19:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I didn't delve into their catalogs but it appears that some of the sites minimizing the effects of poppers also sell them - they truely put their(your) money where their mouth is. This whole story seems to have hit an emotional nerve - not amiable to much science ( like telling my brother that drinking is causing his liver to die ).
159.105.80.141 12:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there any reason for maintaining this as separate from the Alkyl nitrite article? This is the only drug article I know of that does this, everything from ecstasy to Dextromethorphan to methamphetamine is covered in a single unified article that documents both pharmacology and sociology. The split was done a ways back, but it might be time to reconsider and try merging the two. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 01:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Having recently discovered this article and the arguments here, I did a search on MEDLINE and found this [1] of which "Controlled clinical trials to examine this potential correlation have not been conducted, and the use of nitrites simply may be a marker for other high-risk behaviors such as unprotected sex." is the key sentence. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who can access the full text of the article. But, taking the abstract on face value, this indicates that there is no reliable evidence of a link between the aggravation of HIV infection and the action of poppers on the human body. Given that MEDLINE shows no more recent publication on this link, a NPOV requires stating that there is njo concrete evidence that supports the claims of such a link. -- Peter cohen 21:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Isobutyl nitrite was nominated by the Consumer Products Saftety Commission to the National Toxicology Program for toxicology and carcinogenicity studies because of its possible contribution to the high incidence of Kaposi's Sarcoma among gay AIDS patients and because of the lack of available data on the potential carcinogenicity of isobutyl nitrite. The 1996 assessment concluded that there was clear evidence of carcinogenic activity of isobutyl nitrite. See PubMed PMID:12594527. This is a significant risk that should be included in the health risks section. Hankwilson 22:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This NIDA sponsored research by Dax EM et al, (Pubmed PMID #: 2902516) found popper inhalation by humans to be immunosuppressive. This is a significant risk factor that should be included in the health risks section. The study demonstrated that natural killer cell function was significantly suppressed. It took 4 days for the immune system to recover and then the immune system stayed stimulated which is hazardous if a user had been exposed to HIV.HIV replication is dependent on a stimulated immune system.
The article should cite the original research instead of a health columnist. "4 days" should replace "a few days". And there needs to be an inclusion that the immune system stayed stimulated. Portraying a "return to normal" is inaccurate.
The interpretation of the research findings can include multiple perspectives but the findings of immunosuppression should be included. NPOV would allow for the research limitations and variable interpretations to be included. NPOV would not allow omission of this important research finding. Hankwilson 22:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The link has been demonstrated multiple times in published epidemiological research. Whether the link is causal or correlational is unknown. NPOV allows inclusion of the published research findings and conclusions. NPOV allows qualification that whether the link is causal or correlational is unknown. Hankwilson 22:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Hank, in your absence the poppers article had finally become stable. But now that you've resurfaced using your familiar tactics again, the discussion page has suddenly exploded with multiple new sections containing alarmist section titles.
Instead of starting up a shouting match again, would you be willing to allow a more civil discussion to take place around your suggestions that poppers are inherently dangerous. Would you be willing to calm down and take a more measured approach to making your case by presenting credible support for your statements rather than shouting at us with headlines atop ever more new sections? Munatobe7 23:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
It is tempting to add a new heading titled "TIRED OLD PISSING MATCH" to this page. Does no one, especially Hank Wilson, read the guidelines at the top of this page?
Within five blocks of my NYC home, there are at least 20 establishments that sell poppers. Thousands of bottles. If people were really getting ill, or worse, dying from the use of these products, wouldn't it be in the news?
Of course risky sex leads to HIV infection. If one is to indict popper use in that equation, then why not include lube, air, even incandescent light to the list, since they are likely present during risky sex also? The PRESENCE of poppers does not prove their CAUSE of risky behavior or HIV infection. One has only to look at the numbers (how many people use poppers vs. the rate of infection) to see the absurdity of such a claim. The idea that poppers cause risky sexual behavior is fantasical, neither factual nor scientific, as is the idea that sniffing this chemical suddenly causes someone to lose control of their ability to govern their behavior. Where are there people claiming, "I wouldn't be HIV-positive if I hadn't used poppers?"
What is truly unfortunate about this ongoing spitting match is that: 1) People seeking unbiased information on poppers are likely to be misled, or just turned off, by the overwhelming repetition and bias in these postings, and 2) People won't know who/what to trust for information when truly dangerous substances (such as crystal meth) merit warning bells (see the late Peter Jenning's courageous and informative ABC News special on Ecstasy, and how the government's mishandling/misinformation about that drug has lead to a lack of governmental credibility regarding actual drug hazards).
Please, for the sake of truth and in the name of civility, LET THIS END. All sides have stated their cases. There is clearly nothing more factual to add to the discussion. Quit trying to get the last word. Let THIS be the last word, and trust readers discern for themselves the truth about poppers.
This NIDA sponsored research by Dax EM et al, (Pubmed PMID #: 2902516) found popper inhalation by humans temporarily boosted the immune system. This is a significant factor that should be included in the health risks section.
The study demonstrated that the human immune system was temporarily boosted with a spike in function proving that improving the immune system is a positive side effect of poppers.
The interpretation of the research findings can include multiple perspectives but the findings of an immune system boost should be included. NPOV would allow for the research limitations and variable interpretations to be included. NPOV would not allow omission of this important research finding. Scientistdoc 03:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
People, let's not make a new heading on this page every time someone sneezes, okay? If you'd like to suggest improvement to a particular area of the article then making a clean heading for "Health Issues", for example, rather than sensationalist comments. -- John T. Folden 04:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The sole human study to date on popper use concludes: "The results showed that exposure to amyl nitrite can induce changes in immune function even after short exposure to moderate doses. Several tests of immune function showed an "overshoot" over basal activity at 7 days following nitrite inhalation after an initial immunosuppression. A possible interpretation of the results would be that nitrites cause a cycling of immune activity between suppressed and nonspecific stimulated levels. This situation might result in a period of immunosuppression followed by a proliferative period in which virus-containing cells propagate in the presence of a nondirected immunosresponse."
While the National Toxicology Programm(NTP) demonstrated toxicity and carcinogenicity in rats and mice, NIDA's Dax study PMID assessed immunological effects of popper inhalation by humans. Natural killer cell activity showed an initial significant decrease, then returned to baseline levels by day 4 post-inhalation. The Dax human research (1988 PMID 2902516 and 1991 PMID 1685501) is worthy of noting because its a human inhalation study and compliments the findings of most of the animal inhalation studies: poppers effect the immune system. Admittedly, there are limitations of the research and whether the findings are negated is controversial.The controvery could be articulated with the goal of letting readers decide.
The Dax findings should be relayed to readers to foster an informed choice. Alternative perspectives should be included. Seems this multiple perspective inclusion fits in with NPOV .
The article should reference the demonstrated finding: inhalation of poppers by humans resulted in an initial immunosuppression effecting natural killer cell activity taking 4 days to recover to baseline followed by a 7 day cycle of immune stimulation.
Seems we have agreement that more research is needed. Prevalence of use warrants more research. Correlation with risky sex and HIV infection warrant more research. Hankwilson 06:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 06:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I continue to meet gay men who are clueless, or misinformed, or confused about the research on poppers. My goal is to inform consumers and potential consumers about the hazards of popper use so that they can make an informed choice. We had the opportunity to ban poppers in SF back in 1982 and we(Bay Area Physicians for Human Rights, the gay and lesbian doctors organization) opted for an education strategy. We passed a point of sale warning law in 1982.West Hollywood and California followed our model in 1986 and passed a similar law. The need to educate continues.See the Seattle survey of 276 gay men. It is online. It shows the community wants information. Hankwilson 21:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 21:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
From the Journal of Neuroimmune Pharmacology (2006) 1: 317-322. Abstract: Because inhalant nitrites were thought to be rapidly cleared from the body, the lay literature has somewhat downplayed their toxicity. However, scientific reports have documented their immunosuppressive effects in animals, and epidemiological studies have implicated their use with the development of Kaposi's sarcoma (KS) in humans. Because inhalant nitrites are exogenous nitric oxide donors, we hypothesized that these substances of abuse might exert part of their toxicological effects through this biochemical product, which has been shown to alter gene regulation and angiogenesis. In a series of studies, we showed that acute and chronic in vivo exposure to isobutyl nitrite produced significant tissue-dependent alterations in the expression of a number of cancer-and angiogenesis-related genes in mice. In particular, hepatic mRNA and protein expression of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) was significantly stimulated. The in vivo growth rate of a subcutaneous VEGF-responsive tumor was also shown to be accerlerated by inhalant nitrite exposure. Because the development of KS is extensively linked to VEGF and its receptors, the purported link between inhalant nitrites and KS may be explained mechanistically, at least in part, through the stimulation of VEGF expression by these inhalants.
You can find this article online by doing a Google search: "Journal of Neuroimmune Pharmacology"; . The article's reference list is extensive and indicates multiple published research studies. The article takes issue with Andrew Weil's dismissal of poppers having any hazards.
The Ho-Leun Fung research group is funded by National Institutes of Drug Abuse to study immunospressive effects of poppers. The work builds on the previously NIDA funded work by the Soderberg group which demonstrated that poppers were immunosuppressive.
Some have discounted the immunosuppression findings. It has been demonstrated that poppers are immunosuppressive and this hazard of popper use should be included in a credible section on the health risks of poppers. The nuances of dosing, quantity, frequency of use, degrees of hazard should be included also.
This discussion overtime has illustrated that the perspective on poppers remains controversial. I support inclusion of the various perspectives on poppers and the research to date to facilitate a NPOV. Hankwilson 05:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 05:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
for the article "Effects of inhalant nitrites on VEGF expression: a feasible link to Kaposi's sarcoma." by Ho-Leung Fung and Donah C. Tran in Journal of Neuroimmune Pharmacology (2006) 1:317-322.
A couple of things. First off to Hank. Do NOT remove other users comments from a Talk page such as this, unless they are clearly vandalism. That was most certainly not the case with the ones you removed earlier. If you have a legitimate complaint with a post then there are proper channels but you can't remove something just because you don't wish to deal with it or have other people see it. If you're directly connected to the issue in any way, I think it should be noted. Secondly, please refrain from continually making new headers for articles that all center around the Health Issues section of the page. It just makes a mess and there's no reason to have them continually separated as we are NOT here to debate each and every article or report in existence.
As a general note, I'd like to politely suggest that we NOT continually bring up new articles and sources for inclusion unless they are going to dramatically change how we look at the Health Issues section. Personally, I think the Health Issues section is already getting MUCH too wordy. It was nicely concise just a couple of weeks ago and is starting to creep into cruft again, imo. I think it would be nice if we could streamline that section just a bit, again. -- John T. Folden 01:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Hank, you state that John T Folden is "mistaken about you removing material". You tell him it "was someone else", and that you "also did not get to see it...". Then you say that you assumed it was "another ad hominem attack" which someone else removed. But if you go back up and read it, you'll see that you actually RESPONDED to it after your deletion of it was reverted! What's your problem? That's a bold-faced lie. (Or am I missing something here?)
First you delete a legitimate post this morning, then you lie about it, then you delete another post tonight, then you cut and paste some of the deleted post and add it to some stuff you come up with trying to make it appear it's all yours.
This is exactly the kind of stuff you find on the site with your book, where you use the same kind of tactics. You can get by with that on your private wiki because you lock out comments, but you won't get by with it here. That kind of stuff is vandalism. Scientistdoc 06:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Any reaction to this published article?
I think the part about Andrew Weil's assessments of dangers of popper use are especially pertinent. Hankwilson 08:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 08:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
A review is welcome on deletions as well as personal attacks. I will use this format for making input. I think this format has no deletion results. Not so sure about other option.
There is a live controversy between those who believe that popper use is a significant hazard and those who do not. The current article does not do justice to the controversy. There is plenty of space on wikipedia to have a full inclusion of the controversy. Can hazards of popper use be included? Can research results be included? Can recommendations of AIDS researchers and prevention workers be included? How does a NPOV for the article allow for divergent opinions to be included in an article? Hankwilson 08:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 08:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Hank, how about it. Do you think we should create a new section with this NIDA (National Institute on Drug Abuse) Research information: "The recreational use of inhalants such as amyl and butyl nitrite has become more common in the last decade. We are not aware of any data to suggest direct neurotoxicity associated with the abuse of these substances. "
This is from the National Institute on Drug Abuse. It's a 1990 Research Monograph Series called 'Residual Effects of Abused Drugs on Behavior'.
NIDA Research Monographs are indexed in the Index Medicus and are included in the coverage of American Statistics Index, BioSciences Information Service, Chemical Abstracts, Current Contents, Psychological Abstracts, and Psychopharmacology Abstract.
How about it, should we create a new section with this info? It's never been discussed on this Talk page.
(This may rightfully be tossed because someone might consider it an incitement to vandalism, but it's just a joke to demonstrate the absurdity of what Hank Wilson is doing. ) Scientistdoc 09:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The deletions in question can be viewed here. (I'm sure there's a tidier way to link to these but I'm not yet sure how):
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Poppers&diff=next&oldid=138139432
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Poppers&diff=next&oldid=138280701
Now, I see people reply incorrectly all the time (which I can give the benefit of the doubt that you did that when attempting to respond to my specific comments). HOWEVER, the two posts that you removed, were removed very cleanly. It doesn't look to me like the type of thing to happen accidently. Just my POV of the subject. I'd also like to ask again that you not keep making new sections for each article suggestion. Simply add it onto the end of the Health Issues discussion section. -- John T. Folden 17:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Which ic in Jungle Juice? and is the effect different depending on which nitrate uded or just the strength? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.192.91.4 ( talk) 15:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
There are now two clean-up tags in the article which I feel the team of editors in this discussion topic should work to remove.
The less controversial one is the trivia tag. I feel there is some value in having some material on poppers in culture, (popular or otherwise,) with an indication that it appeared in works from the 1970s onwards, often ones with a sexual theme (Score, Queer As Folk etc.) What is not needed is a collection fancruft like the reference to them in the first line of a NOFX song - one of my favourite bands but it's trivia - unless there are no other references to poppers in songs after 2000 and there is a source looking at nitrites going out of vogue.
The votes are in and the winner is: "No merge". Is it time to get rid of the 'merge' tag, too? Scientistdoc 23:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
As far as the NPOV tag on the health section is concerned, I feel the article is currently neutral. Are there any issues highlighted in systematic reviews in peer-reviewed journals or by medical or pharmacological references of the nature of Merck that are not included in the section? With one-eyed material being published by both pro- and anti- authors, I feel it reasonably to set the bar at this level on what to include. -- Peter cohen 18:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Right. Let's have another go at agreeing that we have achieved NPOV. I vote yes. -- Peter cohen 10:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I have just archived most of the conversations on this page; the vast majority had very little to do with the article. It already says this above, but if editors could please remember that Wikipedia is not a forum. Per the warning template at the top of this page, it is acceptable to delete comments that are devoted to the discussion of the benefits and risks of poppers. Saying that the article should say x as cited at y is acceptable and encouraged. Saying that poppers are fun/dangerous/whatever does not contribute to the article and only serves to make the talk page harder to follow for other editors. me_and 09:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not a graphics designer, so if anyone has any suggestions about changes, don't be shy about saying so. :-) Munatobe7 03:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The sales in the United States are illegal. The brands shown have chemical formulas which are illegal to sell and distribute as poppers. Hankwilson 01:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 01:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I just caught an attempt by an anonymous editor (apparently located in the Denver, Colorado area) to completely delete an entire section, with no good reason given. Please do not delete sections from this article without discussion and consensus first.
An international team of editors has worked diligently for quite some time to bring the poppers article into compliance with NPOV, and to futher enhance and improve it. Please do not make arbitrary deletions. It is requested that you give these hard-working editors the respect they deserve by discussing your concerns and proposed changes to this article on this talk page before making any significant changes.
Depending on the nature of your edit, disregarding this request may result in a reversion of your edits without discussion and/or a report of vandalism.
Thank you for your cooperation. Munatobe7 01:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Peter, I note the upset editor earlier today who deleted the "Users" section. I think I know why he's upset.
I've closely read the TIME Magazine and Wall Street Journal articles on poppers and it's clear that the use of poppers is not confined primarily to gays and drug-users. I suspect that the 1988 study you found was biased due to the fact that it was undertaken in an area known for high crime and drug use in general -- the Baltimore-Washington DC area, which is still true today.
Both the TIME and Wall Street Journal investigations found that popper use was spread across a wide spectrum of people, from construction workers ("I carry a bottle with me all the time," 28 year old California carpenter Ron Braun told TIME), to a "trendy East Side NYC couple at a chic NYC nightclub, to disco dancers, and from a "Los Angeles businesswoman in the middle of a particularly hectic public-relations job" who confided to the WSJ author that "I could really use a popper now."
I've taken the liberty to edit only the first paragraph in the Users section to better accommodate the upset editor and to more fully describe the results of the media's investigation. Munatobe7 06:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I hope this doesn't turn into a big deal, but I though it best to separate the images issue just in case it does. It'll be easier to keep it all in one place on the Talk page.
Hank, your objection to the images in the article are noted. But it's difficult to do justice to a description of the history of poppers in an encyclopedia or on Wikipedia, without mentioning RUSH® or Locker Room® just as you can't describe the history of automobiles, soft drinks or toothpaste without mentioning Chevy® or Ford®, Coke® or Pepsi®, or Crest® or Colgate®. RUSH® and Locker Room® are the brands most often mentioned in the media reports of the time. I think the RUSH® image (which is a decades-old promotional advertisement in a major men's magazine), instead of the amyl nitrite image I'd first used, is a much better example of the "aggressive marketing" that is being reported on by the TIME and Wall Street Journal articles referenced in that section.
I have to say, I think your objections ring hollow. In searching for appropriate images to use, I discovered that on sites where you are either affiliated or where your anti-popper book is promoted, there are numerous images or photos of branded poppers, including past advertisements for various brands. In fact I took the "amyl nitrite" ad directly from this site (Which is one of the reasons I did not know how to account for its copyright status). On this page on that same site there are at least 16 other images of past promotional advertisements for branded poppers.
The entire editing team (including moi) has spent a lot of time and undertaken a lot of hard work to get this article to a point where it's stable and a potential nominee for a Wikipedia "Good Article" award, and we have been sensitive to your many complaints and suggestions. But, with all due respect, your close relationship to this subject, as a well-known anti-popper activist, and your apparent lack of objectivity, seems to be making it hard for you to accept a NPOV in this article. None the less, if you have constructive criticisms they are welcome, and if you have any images you think might be appropriate for the article we'd like to see them. Munatobe7 03:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The federal ban on sales of alkyl nitrites went into effect in 1991. A reference is needed for that and it could be one of the existing references...2002 CPSC memo might. Hankwilson 18:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 18:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted the edit about the UK until discussion takes place. I looked at the page linked to but cannot find anything that says sale is prohibited. Can you lead us to the text that shows that sales are prohibited? Also, do you have any idea why sales still allowed? Perhaps it's due to various formualtions?
Also, we're trying to clean up the article and are listing support as references/footnotes, not inline links to the articles. If this info is to be included it should be woven into the text. Munatobe7 21:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
"NTP Toxicology and Carcinogenesis Studies of Isobutyl Nitrite (CAS No, 542-56-3) in F344 Rats and B6C3F1 Mice (Inhalation Studies) in National Toxicology Program Technical Report Services 1996 July; 448:1-302. Hankwilson 07:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 07:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
According to the European Trade Only publication, ETO, isobutyl nitrite is now listed as a toxin, and as of 8/24/07 is illegal in the UK and Europe: http://erotictradeonly.com/content/news/article89.php?id=1
Their article states that the legislation, the 29th amendment to 76/769/EEC of the EU Directive, now classifies isobutyl nitrite as a toxin, which means it will be illegal to sell publicly in Europe and the UK.
The article also says that a leading UK manufacturer is now making isopropyl nitrite instead, and is recalling any isobutyl nitrite poppers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mistressplaid ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
i suggest that a separate paragraph be devoted to ks and poppers which includes a reference to the Ho-leung Fung "VEGF expression" finding which was referenced in the article "Effects of inhalant nitrites on VEGF expression; a feasible link to Kaposi's sarcoma/" journal of neuroimmune pharmacology. For consideration the fulltext online available free at
www.springerlink.com/content/73h7w882j6616514/fulltext.html
Hankwilson 19:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 19:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
i will be submitting some information on the enforcement of the ban, the prosecution, fines, etc for violators of the ban on sales in the United States. Soliciting feedback prior to adding to article. Hankwilson 19:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 19:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Peter, just read your edit to the legality section. Well done. Thanks. (Hate to ask, but have you given any thought to how to deal with the trivia section?) Munatobe7 23:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Hank, the changes you were attempting to make today, and then reversed because you want to include even more information, serve as a reminder that Wikipedia is not a discussion forum.
Also, we'd already pretty much agreed that it's not a good idea to begin to muddy up the article with the minutia of the smallest detail about this and that relative to enforcement, etc. John T Folden reminded us that "This type of info, if overdone, strikes me as being un-encyclopedic".
Also, as Peter Cohen pointed out a few weeks ago: " Wikipedia:Summary style indicates to me that the US subsection is quite big enough already for a top-level article on poppers. After all this is an international encyclopaedia. There is a potential to spin off a separate article on the law on poppers around the world. Obviously if people from various countries start popping up and supplying info on the law where they are to the detail we have on the countries discussed so far, then we would have to do so and keep a summary that describes the types of variation that can occur. Issues concerning systemic bias would require similar treatment to be allowed to that which the current countries receive. There is also the possibility of a separate article on the law on poppers and enforcement in the US, but that would depend on how things are seen on the grand scale of things. I can imagine some people wanting to delete such an article as not satisfying Wikipedia:Notability, but I'm not familiar enough wiht how it is implemented to know one way or the other."
As written, the article currently does a good job of telling the story in an encyclopedic manner. If you want to make substantial changes, such as those in your reversed edit today, would you mind not making changes or adding things without first discussing on the talk page? That would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation. Munatobe7 02:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I backed out an unreferenced insertion of new information.
A quick google suggests that HHV8 infection is a necessary condition for KS. But that is too weak a claim to definitively take poppers out of the picture. My understanding is that HHV8 is an opportunistic infection that takes advantage of weaknesses causes by other factors, notably HIV infection. The dispute is whether poppers are one of the factors that give HHV8 an edge. -- Peter cohen 13:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Researcher Drumright looked and found evidence for poppers use being a causal risk factor for HIV infection.
The epidemiolgogy studies find associations between popper use and both HHV-8 infection and also development of Kaposi's Sarcoma.
The point of sale warnings were proposed by both health educators and health authorities. And the cautioning and mandated point of sale warnings were motivated by both the link to HIV infections as well as Kaposi's Sarcoma.
It is not legal to market any alkyl nitrite for use as poppers. The previous wording needed to be clearer about what was banned. Hankwilson 22:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Munatobe7 04:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The 1983 mandated warning:
"WARNING: These products contain alkyl nitrites ("Poppers"}. Inhaling or swallowing alkyl nitrites may be harmful to your health. These chemicals can cause skin rashes, nasal iritation, sinus or lung infections, and rarely severe anemia. Inhaling concentrated alkyl nitrite vapors may cause you to faint and could be very dangerous if you have a hidden heart disease.Whether continued inhalation of alkyl nitrites may affect the immune system is not known, but several different studies have suggested that some impairment of the immune system is possible."
"WARNING: These products contain alkyl nitrites ("Poppers"). Inhaling or swallowing alkyl nitrite may be harmful to your health. The use of alkyl nitrites may affect the immune system. Several studies have suggested that the use is associated with the development of Kaposi's sarcoma (an AIDS condition)."
Journal of Toxicology and Clinical Toxicology; 20(5),421-449.1983.
Vol. 78; 811-816.
The current wording does not seem neutral, but dismissive about poppers use being a significant risk hazard for HIV infection and risky sexual behaviors leading to HIV infection. It needs rewording so that the research indicating risk is not dismissed. Hankwilson 22:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
And what evidence apart from a bald assertion do you have for the claim in this section title? -- Peter cohen 23:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
PMID 1685501 Dax E. 1991; PMID 2902516 Dax E. 1988; PMID 6235910 Lotzova E. 1984; PMID 6142118 Jacobs R. 1983; PMID 6186374 Hersh EM. 1983; PMID 2902514 Mirvish S. 1988; PMID 3140019 Maickel R. 1988; PMID 2902515 Ortiz J. 1988; PMID 2569972 Dunkel V. 1989; PMID 84622528 Mirvish S. 1993; PMID 1835258 Soderberg L. 1991; PMID 1778367 Soderberg L. 1991; PMID 8284799 Soderberg L. 1994; PMID 8787659 Soderberg L. 1996; PMID 8605963 Soderberg L. 1996; PMID 8647236 Soderberg L. 1996; PMID 8864129 Soderberg L. 1996; PMID 9439769 Soderberg L. 1997; PMID 9610684 Soderberg L. 1998; PMID 10048747 Soderberg L. 1999; PMID 10906432 Guo G. 2000; PMID 10964667 Keilbassa W. 2000; PMID 11310851 Ponnappan U. 2001; PMID 14521929 Tran D. 2003; PMID 15222982 Ponnappan U. 2004; PMID 15294346 Soderberg L. 2004; Hankwilson 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The 1988 Kennedy Committee conclusions need to be removed or contextualized so that reference is made to the subsequent(post 1988) body of published research showing poppers are immunosuppressive, and significant risk factors for HIV infection and HHV-8 infection. Congress as a whole banned the sale and distribution because of the links to HIV infection and KS despite the Kennedy Committee. The Congressional impetus for banning poppers was because of concerns about the links with HIV and KS . In addition, the NIDA monograph issued in 1988, indicated that poppers were immunosuppressive and potentially effecting HIV infection...the human study by Elizabeth Dax. The Kennedy report ignored the human study done by Dax and NIDA. Hankwilson 22:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 22:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In this study using eight HIV- male volunteers, the investigators found that amyl nitrite inhalation caused an initial suppression in immune function that was followed by an overshoot seven days after cessation of drug. This study had a low sample number and was not repeated. These results are also contradictory to results obtained by other research groups. If the work presented in this paper is accurate, one could interpret the overshoot in immune activity as evidence for nitrite use causing an increase in immune function. This conclusion refutes Wilson's proposal that nitrites are harmful to the immune system. Soderberg (1996) Inhaled isobutyl nitrite produced lung inflammation with increased macrophage TNF-a and nitric oxide production. AIDS, Drugs of Abuse, and the Neuroimmune Axis, Ed. Friedman et al., Plenum Press, New York, 187. This article contains the same information as a previously discussed Soderberg publication (Toxicology Letters, 104:35) with the same flaws. This is an example of an investigator increasing the volume of their work by publishing duplicative results. Soderberg and Barnett (1995) Inhalation exposure to isobutyl nitrite inhibits macrophage tumoricidal activity and modulates inducible nitric oxide. Journal of Leukocyte Biology, 57:135. This paper is a repeat of experiments (Toxicology Letters, 104:35) by the same author, except the tumoricidal activity of peritoneal rather than lung macrophages was measured. Interestingly, Soderberg obtained the opposite results between the two publications. For instance, in these experiments, there was a decrease in tumoricidal activity that returns in two weeks, which contradicts their 1996 publication showing an increase in tumoricidal activity of macrophages. Other data presented by Soderberg demonstrated that nitrite exposure increased TNF-a production by itself or in combination with interferon, but caused no change in response to lipopolysaccharide or interferon and lipopolysaccharide (stimulators of TNF-a production). In contrast, the other report stated that there was no effect of nitrite treatment on TNF-a production in either the absence or presence of interferon, but an increase in TNF-a production in the presence of lipopolysaccharide or lipopolysaccharide and interferon. Finally, the 1995 study reported a decrease in nitric oxide production stimulated by lipopolysaccharide and interferon, which contradicts the 1996 study. Interestingly, the author did not discuss these discrepancies. When an investigator publishes results that are the opposite of each other, one cannot derive conclusions from their work." Munatobe7 04:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
2. As for the credibility of the researchers being called into question, who is doing that calling? what is the credibility of the critiquers? I request it be presented for evaluation. 3. I feel the Dax human study of the effects of poppers on the human immune system had significant findings. Not an animal study, a human study. Natural killer cell function suppressed 30% immediately after 3 inhalations. Where is a credible critique of that study? 4. Some research cited in the current article can be supplanted with better ones and rewording can improve balance. Some current references can be supplanted with more credible ones. I will suggest and justify replacements, rewordings, and integrating additions of new research which you can evaluate. The goal is to improve the article. It may take time to improve the article. 5. As for including reference that is almost 2 decades old, the 1988 Kennedy Committee report, why include a 1988 recommendation that was made prior the context of the bulk of the immunosuppression research surfacing? 6. The Congressional ban on distribution and sale of poppers was in the context of an AIDS epidemic which had no effective treatments and an accumulating body of research showing that poppers were immunosuppressive and associated with KS and risky sexual behavior and HIV infections. Gay constituents pressured Rep. Mel Levine and Henry Waxman(both Los Angeles) on this issue and used the research findings as rationale. The poppers industry lobbied against the ban, but failed. You can review the archives of Bruce Voeller at Cornell University for verification of their failed attempts to stop the ban. 7.As for duplicates being in the bibliography. Duplicates in the sense that a study by one author was in 2 different journals, or an abstract from a conference might have been included. The purpose was to reflect whereever the information might be located. Some libraries have one journal, but not another. By knowing all possible information sources, interested parties can maximize finding something in their location. I don't believe there is a need for padding. In recent bibliographies, I highlight the Dax human study because it is more relevant to humans than mice studies. Hankwilson 23:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 23:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
James Goedert, MD, PhD National Cancer Institute; JR Neefe, Georgetown University; Richard Jacobs, MD National Center for Toxicological Research; Evan Hersh, Dept. of Clinical Immunonology and Biological Therapy at M.D. Anderson Hospital and Tumor Institute, Houston, Texas; Guy Newell, MD Department of Cancer Prevention, M.D. Anderson Hospital; Eva Lotzova, MD, Dept. of Clinical Immunology and Biological Therapy, M. D. Anderson Hospital; User Mather-Wagh MD Dept of Medicine and Pathology, Beth Israel Medical Center; Elizabeth Dax, MD Addiction Research Center, National Institute of Drug Abuse; Lee Soderberg, PhD Dept. of Microbiology and Immunology at University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences; DC Tran, PhD University Buffalo, Buffalo; Ho-Leung Fung, PhD Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences,University of Buffalo, NY;
I'm not aware that any researcher claims that the research to date is definitive. Researchers have posed questions for future research. More research is needed.
The Dax study was formative research. Thus only 8 participants were used. NIDA did the human study because of Congressional mandate prodded by Rep. Henry Waxman of LA. Congress ordered the NIDA study and required a report back within 6 months. This could explain the small number. Budget limitations could explain the small number. The initial Dax study was followed by an 18 participant study. NIDA subsequently returned to study mice/rats...its usual vehicle for toxicology studies.
As for the issue of the immune system showing an "overshoot" over baseline activity at 7 days following nitrite inhalation after the initial immunosuppression: First, initial immunosuppression could increase susceptibility to infection if exposed to HIV, HHV-8, other infections. Second, Dax states:" A possible interpretation of the results would be that nitrites cause a cycling of immune activity between suppressed and nonspecific stimulated levels. This situation might result in a period of immunosuppression followed by a proliferative period in which virus-containing cells propagate in the presence of a nondirected immunoresponse. In the community, nitrites are often used in an eposidic manner, which may facilitate such cyclic changes."
I agree that the study should be replicated. Dax did conduct a second study on humans using 18 male HIV negative volunteers: "Amyl nitrite alters human in vitro immune function." Immunopharmacology and Immunotoxicology 1991;13(4):577-587.
I recommend that NIDA do a human study on the effects of poppers on the human immune system. We can now measure impact on HIV viral load as well as HHV-8 viral load and there are additional immune system markers available compared to 1987. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hankwilson ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC) Hankwilson 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
That error of attribution was corrected. Thanks for the notice and apology for the mistake. Hankwilson 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
In the first section of the article it is stated:
Some men report that a reduction in erection stiffness can interfere with sexual performance.[1]
The author cites source number one, yet an inspection of the source says nothing to that respect. I'm not even sure that the effect of a nitric oxide donor would have that effect. I believe that that sentence should be removed. What does everyone else think?
Ajmbc 04:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I've rephrased it in terms of what is said in the source.-- Peter cohen 10:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
HIV acquisition is a significant health concern. Merck fails to incorporate the published research about HIV acquisiton in gay men. The placement change gives better balance to the article. Hankwilson ( talk) 23:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson ( talk) 23:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I question the inclusion of the 1983 CPSC report. It is 25 years old, obsolete in the context of the subsequent published research about poppers. The article could have a historical developments section or a "Poppers Industry Position" section, and perhaps a "Public Health Position" section.
www.HIVinsite.com go to Knowledge base article about malignancies, then to the resource section box to find the bibliography of published and unpublished research(abstracts,presentations,unaccepted submission -Watson 1982).
www.poppers.cfsites.org also references of published research about poppers, public health and community responses to poppers use by gays and men who sex with men.
www.virusmythpoppersmyth.com has a critique of the published research. Alert that the website is a poppers industry promotion site.
The 1983 CPSC report has historical value but is unresponsive to the subsequent research published about poppers.
The Merck Manual may have general credibility, but its information about poppers is incomplete failing to reference the hazards demonstrated in the accumulating published research.(immunosuppressive, HIV transmission risk factor, HHV8 and KS risk factor).
Hankwilson ( talk) 15:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson ( talk) 15:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is fine as it stands. Please do not begin your past practice of popping up (no pun intended) every few months to begin the same arguments over and over again and start tearing the article apart.
Please do not alter the article unless you have substantial new news to report. You've been asked to behave on a number of occasions in the past; please adhere to those requests to avoid the possibility of being labeled a vandal.
As the article stands, it fairly represents both sides of the controversy and is the closest it's ever been to being a neutral article (NPOV). This has been a lot of work on the part of a lot of people, including your own valuable input, to get here -- so please do not upset it.
Munatobe7 ( talk) 20:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I plan on removing the following sentence in the current article: "Manufacturers reformulated their products to abide by the law, and today nitrite based products are sold as video head cleaner, polish remover or room odorants.[1]" The citation for this characture of the poppers industry's response is dated prior to the ban, and does not accurately reflect popper industry behavior post ban.
The law enforcement section needs to include that the 1990 law has been enforced on individual sellers and that the industry has been fined for violations of CPSC regulations. A section on The CPSC record to date needs to be included. There are also local and state regulations of poppers which need to be included to accurately reflect what is happening in the United States today.
Hankwilson (
talk) 16:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)Hankwilson
Hankwilson (
talk) 16:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove the subject sentence. Also, kindly do not alter the article based on your comments above.
The current status of the sale of these products clearly reflects that the industry has obviously reformulated to circumvent the ban on specific nitrites, irrespective of the date of the citation you mention. It's still valid.
There is no need to go into the minutia contained in a listing of items around CPSC enforcement actions. This is not the place for that level of detail. This has been discussed ad nauseam in the past, remember?
Munatobe7 ( talk) 20:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Searching for information on Hank Wilson, according to published reports, he came up with the psudo-important sounding name, Committee to Monitor Poppers, to correspond with researchers and public officials about poppers while claiming to be an expert on the subject. He wrote a book, which you can find listed on Amazon.com, called "Death Rush", and claims to "have played a leading role in sounding the tocsin on the dangers of poppers."
The book is a very short but damming commentary on poppers which appears to lack much credible information (see the reviews by AIDS experts on Amazon.com). Much of the book comprises a list of research projects that had some connection to or mention of poppers -- but which have almost all been reviewed and tossed out as invalid for various reasons.
The book is found here: http://paganpressbooks.com/, and a review of it's research is found here: http://www.virusmythpoppersmyth.org/hank_wilson_references/
Wilson's vested interest in the subject of poppers, along with his toxic attitude towards poppers, explains his never-ending attempts to sabotage this article or slant it toward his anti-popper viewpoint, rather than work toward a NPOV. He would find it impossible to be a neutral voice in any discussion about poppers, either on Wikipedia, or elsewhere. A quick look back through the discussion pages on poppers proves that. 71.106.17.188 ( talk) 03:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Peter: I spent a bit of time expanding the 'History' section per the tag you'd placed there earlier. I hope it was ok to include the photo of Sir Lauder Brunton. He perhaps could rightfully be called the 'grandfather' of poppers -- or at least amyl nitrite.
Munatobe7 ( talk) 20:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
In the movie, The Professional, does anyone know if the pills Stansfield ( Gary Oldman) pops during the film are poppers? Judging by the way he cracks them in his teeth, then gets some sort of immediate reaction from them, I suspect that they may in fact be poppers. I've searched all over for some information to back this up, but all I can find is speculation, and not one mention of amyls.. Does a book or screenplay exist, perhaps? Weasel5i2 ( talk) 08:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
They cannot possibly be poppers since poppers are a liquid packed in bottles. I don't recall seeing the actor cracking the pills with his teeth. Even so, poppers don't come in pills and they are not taken by mouth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.167.198.121 ( talk) 17:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I just copyedited the article for style, wording, etc., and had a complete revert from Munatobe7. Wikipedia pages are not "owned" by the major current editors. The Wikipedia policy on reverting states that it is a serious measure that should only be used against vandalism (e.g., profanity/ nonsense). What I find frustrating with Munatobe7's complete revert is that it undoes EVERY change. Fine, disagree with some of the changes and change them. But to do a complete revert even undoes the edits that I imagine you would agree with, like joining orphan sentences into paragraphs. So you asked me to please discuss on talk page. So here is the request..............................The article has orphan sentences, grammar errors, and so on, and I would like to copyedit it for style. Now I suppose I wait for permission? OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 00:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi OnBeyondZebrax. Thanks for your edits to the poppers article. The reason I'd reverted all of them last night was that I was too tired to go through so many, and the only time the article has seen that many edits at one time has been when vandals have attacked it. In the talk section you'll see that, in the past, when any of us who have spent untold hours trying to build the article into a credible repository of accurate information on poppers have seen such large edits, we've reverted most of them because they almost all were the work of vandals.
Having had time now to go over your many edits, it's refreshing to have such a high quality contributor make needed edits!
Thanks again for your meaningful contribution!
Respectfull, Munatobe7 ( talk) 13:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm very impressed with how wonderful this poppers article has become. It's been a year or more since I last looked at it and back then it was a mess. Now it's full of relevant and credible information. This Kansas City resident is grateful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.33.161.130 ( talk) 11:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
A lot of people worked very hard to try to make this article as good as it could be. It's come a long way. Thanks for your kind remarks. Munatobe7 ( talk) 18:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
For over six months a notice has appeared in the "Availability and legality" section stating that "This section does not cite any references or sources.:, and further stating that 'unverifiable material may be challenged and removed."
I would agree that this section is full of un-sourced posts. Since it has been over half a year and no one has been able to verify the material, I propose to delete this section, unless a majority disagrees.
The article is very long and this will help streamline it.
Munatobe7 ( talk) 22:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Munatobe7 ( talk) 02:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Isoamyl Nitrate (CH3)2CHCH2CH2ONO
Ive only done half a degree in chemistry, but im almost certain that the second one doesnt have the amyl group that would qualify it as an Isoamyl nitrate. Can someone verfy and possibly correct this?
“ | Poppers have a low risk of harm to society and the individual compared to other recreational drugs. | ” |
The above assertion in the lede seems wildly inaccurate and rather dubious for the lede. Do we really have comprehensive studies on the impact of poppers on societal harm? And which other drugs is this compared to? Thoughts? -- Banjeboi 02:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC).
As a result of legal measures to control the manufacture, import and distribution of Poppers in certain areas of the world a new problem with these products has appeared. They are what is referred to as "Bathtub Brands" named to imply that they are made in bathtubs by underground manufacturers. These versions can be more dangerous than the manufactured version of the chemicals that are often used as inhalants because the contents are unknown and the manufacturers are not reputable. Not only do these brands infringe on Trademark ownership but there is no consistent chemical makeup making these versions extra dangerous and what's really troubling is that the packaging looks almost identical to the real versions. Popperpedia contains an article on how to identify fake poppers of the most popular PWD Brand distributed chemicals. It includes important information on how to distinguish based on the tamper proof seal and packaging.
While the use of these chemicals as inhalants is under scrutiny a new problem requiring more education for those making the personal choice to use these substances has surfaced with new and unknown risks and consequences.
I see that one section of the article repeatedly refers to alkyl nitrates rather than alkyl nitrites in connection with carcinogenicity. Is this intentional or a blooper? Everybody got to be somewhere! ( talk) 23:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
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