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This talk page has not been structured according to guidelines, so I am adding these comments at the top of the page.
I have copyedited the article, consolidating multiple iterations of identical information and arranging paragraphs more coherently. I have also changed POV and MPOV to WP:NPOV to the maximum degree presently practicable. I have removed the "analyses" of referent studies, for they are a direct and serious violation of WP:NOR. There is apparently enough emotional investment on this issue that maintaining a factual, NPOV tone as required in Wikipedia is proving challenging, so I have also tagged this article for extra NPOV scrutiny and assistance. It is particularly problematic that many of the references are taken from a single pro-poppers website with an anonymous owner. -- Scheinwerfermann 23:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is based on text that was originally at amyl nitrite, and the public domain document http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs/708/ (a work of the U.S. Federal Government with no copyright notice can be assumed to be in the public domain).
Update: The DOJ ain't too hot at maintaining their site, but the source text is now at http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs07/708/.
Given the source of most of this text, there's probably a lot more NPOV problems than just using the word "abuse" to refer to any recreational use. An obvious example is that we detail all of the possible health problems but go into no detail about the beneficial effects (the kind of euphoria produced, how it helps with sex, etc). Unfortunately, I can't provide that, since I'd never use such a drug as this! -- Toby Bartels 12:27 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
In which countries, if any, is the recreational use of poppers legal? AxelBoldt 21:29 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Beats me. -- Toby Bartels 21:25 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Use is legal in the USA. Sale or importation is illegal, not under the controlled substances law ( 21 U.S.C. §§ 801-971) but under the consumer product safety law (15 U.S.C. §§ 2057a- 2057b). Apparently, alkyl nitrites have commercial or industrial uses, such that listing them as a controlled substance would create problems for some industries. Don't know about other countries. -- Cjmnyc 05:46 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I removed the following
This part of the government document seems to talk about general inhalants rather than poppers. AxelBoldt 21:42 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Oops, I put it back in; I guess I was misguided by the part Nitrites, however, have caused no known deaths and appear to be safer than most other inhalants. which is not part of the government document but was added by 63.214.217.46. AxelBoldt 21:45 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Deleted "a carry-over from the 1960s, an era where drug use and experimentation were common", on NPOV grounds. I suspect this article may have other NPOV problems as well. -- Cjmnyc 05:31 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The reference section of the poppers article lists published articles in scientific journals,most peer reviewed, and the PMID number is listed for ready reference. The articles speak for themselves with most being cautionary and focusing on hazards of poppers use. The intent of such a listing is to make consumers aware of these scientific publications, limitations often acknowledged. There is no claim that the list is definitive. Other published articles can be added, including any that include positive benefits of using poppers. Hankwilson 23:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 23:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Two big problems. One, the opening line of the article says that poppers are used by the avant-garde heterosexual community. Is this at least anecdotally supported? I'm straight and fairly progressive and I've *never* seen a popper or heard them talked about by anyone but gays. Two, the entire "controversy" section consists of the popper /AIDS industry defending itself successfully from controversy. So how is that a "controversy" section? The controversy section is for dissenting view, that poppers are a huge health risk, but you haven't let the dissenters make their case. -broodlinger 24.184.67.122 00:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This seems a good idea to me.
But, there was a guy here a few months ago, a doctor or a scientist (I can't remember which), who suggested keeping them separate. I think his concern was that he wanted to the chemical article to steer clear of the chaos that had been going on in the 'poppers' article.
Now that the clamour has calmed down, maybe the articles could be linked.
I tried to find his postings in the discussion page, but for some reason the page has been removed or at least all the history has dissapeared.
216.54.197.236 22:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Dalmation55, others may comment on your other edits/removals, but I've added back the inclusion of the link to All About Poppers which you deleted. It seems an appropriate one. It is not spam. It provides genuine and important background information. Lt. Dan 23:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Allaboutpoppers is a manufacturer sponsored website and this calls into question the integrity of the information. This website has been cited in the press did you read:
http://ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=873?
Whether you take Hank Wilsons line or not, I do not, the evidence is quite clear. This is a commercial website, masquerading an an authority, with a hidden agenda. From past reading I also understand that this site has been spamming wikipedia for many years.
The All About Poppers site has often been linked from popper selling sites.Interestingly, the content of All About Poppers has changed in the last year. The current focus of that site is to dismiss hazards of poppers use and to debunk the published research to date. Many of those articles predate published research, or ignore it. That site includes opinion pieces dismissing the hazards demonstrated by published research. The opinion pieces are not neutral. There inclusion in "External Links" could be helpful to illustrate the diverse views about poppers and the history of the debate as the research evolves. Also, the reference section until recently was arranged with the most recent articles published first so that there can be a historical review of the research.
These articles should be removed from the reference section because they are not scientific research. If allowed to remain in the reference section, then they should be rearranged according to chronilogical order. Some of the opinion articles in All About Poppers carry no publication dates, Paul Varnell's article for example, making it difficult to put in a historical framework.
Ad hominem attacks fail to deal with the results and conclusions of the published research.
Recently, Google and Yahoo have both stopped carrying sponsored popper selling sites under search: "poppers". Hankwilson 06:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 06:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Honeypot, is the allaboutpoppers website sponsored and connected with Pac West / Great Lakes Products of Indiana or not? Please can someone clarify this issue? This has nothing to do with Hank Wilson or his campaign, it is a matter of a the integrity of the information. The commercial entities mentioned produce "aroma products" and sell them as such, do they not? If it might be established that they also promote the misuse of the product then that would be a grave matter indeed. I would welcome insight on the connection between Pac West / Great Lakes, Joseph F. Miller, and the allaboutpoppers webiste. Perhaps there is none? Let us clear this matter up shall we? If the allaboutpoppers is connected to Pac West we should be told and vice versa. Thanks. Dalmation55
It seems I may have answered my own question. Hidden in the code on Pac West Distributing Inc's corporate website is this little trick (see below). The links are HIDDEN and can only be seen using special software. Why would Pac West link to allaboutpoppers.com and www.virusmythpoppersmyth.org in such a secretive way? Why not be open about it? This whiffs of something fishy, what do others think?
www.pwdbrands.com/never_fake_it.php hides the following CODING from the naked eye:
Pac West Inc's interest in promoting these websites requires an explanation I think.
Okay. The two guys who are opposed to poppers say that All About Poppers shouldn't any longer be included in "External Links" because:
1) "Recently, Google and Yahoo have both stopped carrying sponsored popper selling sites under search: "poppers".
2) The All About Poppers site "has often been linked from popper selling sites.", and is linked from a poppers manufacturer's site.
3) "The content of All About Poppers has changed in the last year."
What's the point? Google or Yahoo may have stopped carrying sponsored "popper selling sites" under the search "poppers", but what's that got to do with All About Poppers? It doesn't sell poppers.
I'm not a computer person, but I think it's true that links to a site are out of the control of the site being linked to, and I don't think there is any way for a site to stop any other site from adding a link to them. So it's not All About Poppers' fault other sites link to them. But who cares anyway? Where's the harm?
And also, most websites change over time and site redesign is common practice. That doesn't make them unworthy or discredit what they have to say.
The All About Poppers site is full of lots of background information that's not in the article. If you take the time to read it, like I have (and it takes some time, there's a lot there, and some of it is heavy reading), whether you agree with it or not, you'll see it's valuable information. It should be included and has been added back to the "External Links" section. HoneyBot29 22:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dalmation, have you read any of the All About Poppers site? If so, what parts of it lack integrity?
I've read a lot of it, and, yes, I realize it's not an anti-popper site. But to me it seems a treasure-trove of background and analysis.
If you haven't read it, then you really don't have a valid reason to be criticizing it, because you don't know what you're talking about.
It's like the abortion argument, or the argument over Islam vs Christianity, or even about gay marriage where fringes of the disagreeing parties can't even agree on fundamental issues of fairness. You should read All About Poppers before you criticize it. Condom Man 00:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Honeybot, I agree with much of what you had to say, but I don't agree with you that just because someone removes a link, that they are automatically a vandal. It really depends on the context in which the link is removed. Just sayin.
Condom Man
01:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Reference Analysis Inaccuracies: The reference section "analysis" of the Dax , 1991 human study of poppers claims that the 30% reduction in natural killer cell activity was only found in the long term study, but the Dax publication states:" in both the short and long term studies NK activity decreased approximately 30% during drug administration and returned to pre-drug levels after cessation of drug exposure." " Single inhalations at 3-4 day intervals result in sustained depression of natural killer cell activity." "The doses of nitrites administered to volunteers in this study are moderate compared with those reported by individuals abusing isobutyl nitrite."
The analyses of the published research articles needs analysis with errors removed; prehaps multiple analyses of each analysis.
The research on poppers is accumulating and this is the achilles heal of the poppers industry. There is no claim that the research to date is definitive. More research is needed...and the poppers industry should be paying for it.To date the poppers industry has circumvented consumer protection laws which mandate pre sale drug safety testing. There was a boast on one website that 25,000 bottles of RUSH were being sold DAILY! Consumer demand will decrease when the research is publicized to consumers.
Distortions of the research should not be allowed on Wikipedia. ( Hankwilson 06:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 06:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)).
Poppers are illegal worldwide: Why is that?
I am sure that you know that allaboutpoppers.com consists of ancient articles published, following poppers industry machinations, in gay periodicals at the time poppers were outlawed. The same periodicals carried adverts for these chemicals. What is Bruce Voeller's relationship with Pac West? Does anyone know? I see a photograph of this individual at the following website:
http://jfmillerfoundation.org/gallery.html
Joseph F Miller is the gentleman behind Pac West as I understand. This all looks most irregular. The authorities BAN a dangerous inhalant that lowers blood pressure, the industry conspires to circumvent this law, and further distributes information pertaining to the abuse of the product as inhalant.
This is a no brainer: a chemical which dramtically lowers a human beings blood pressure is DANGEROUS. I am not a PhD like Voeller, but anyone can understand this - the potential danger to sight through damage to the retina is obvious. Ask your optican! No fancy foundations or "research" required!
The authorities of most nations have outlawed this product. Why do you think that is? An anti gay conspiracy led by the Vatican? No, I think not, perhaps commonsense! Does anyone know where poppers are legal? Zimbabwe perhaps?
Commonsense is the enemy of these industry spin doctors who are engaged in what one publication called the "Poppers War". These individuals, their publicty, and their methods should be seen as part of a wider industry effort to negate the influence of enforcement on their business interests. This is about dollars and the exploitation of the consumer. Dalmation55
Mr Wilson: kindly do not alter or edit my study analyses. To add your own comments about any of the studies, please use Wikipedia formatting, and do so outside of my analyses of the study. That way it is clear who said what.
Thank you. New Orleans Jazz 23:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Mr Wilson: I read your comments earlier that you indicated that you'd originally posted your reference list of studies in chronological order, and you thought they should be kept that way. I agree, the studies you posted had been moved around and were out of chronological order. I spent a lot of time over the past few days reordering the list so that it's again in chronological order. But, tonight, when you edited my first analysis, you changed the date, along with altering the analysis itself.
I believe the analysis you wanted to challenge was a 1999 Solderberg study, but you instead completely altered a 2004 Soderberg study. You should have gone to the 1999 study to make your analysis. (But, don't forget, do not alter my analysis; instead add your own comments/analysis in proper Wikipedia formatting)
It can be confusing sometimes. I've had to really did into Wikipedia to understand how to format and such. New Orleans Jazz 00:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
New Orleans Jazz: Thanks for agreeing to chronilogical ordering of published references. Concerns: 1. The current Soderberg et al(2004) Increased tumor growth in mice exposed to inhaled isobutyl nitrite.Toxicology Letters, 152.35 was published in 1999,not 2004. I will correct the chronilogical placement.OK? Also, the author was solely Lee Soderberg. 2. Your analysis omits Soderberg's stated rationale for using the PYB6 tumor model: "However, the PYB6 tumor model was developed as a measure of immunotoxicity(Dean et al.,1982) and it is well established that KS is most virulent in immunosuppressed individuals(Ganem, 1997)."from page 39. 3. You failed to include the final ending sentence: "Thus, any role of inhalant-induced immunosuppression would be expected to occur prior to the onset of debilitating HIV-induced immunosuppression, perhaps allowing KS/HHV-8 or HIV to become established in its early stages."from page 40. This statement supports the nitrite inhalants causing immunosuppression resulting in increased susceptibility to infections(HHV-8,HIV,and others like HPV and anal cancer??). 4.The concern with immunosuppression increasing susceptibility to infections encompasses more than HHV-8 and HIV. Whether this study measured specifically the effect on KS is irrelevant, the study found that tumors, admittedly not KS, were increased in both quantity and growth rate. 5. Popper users vary in quantity of nitrites inhaled....ranging from a few sniffs to dozens. This makes dose extrapolation to human usage challenging. 6.Finally, I am on a learning curve on the wikipedia protocols. I will annotating the reference citations with a direct quote(s). 7.Most published research includes a discussion section with limitations stated. These limitations guide future efforts and acknowledge that findings are not definitive. Hankwilson 15:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 15:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
A thorough review of most of the studies cited and listed in the 'References' section of the 'poppers' article, reveals that these researchers lend little or no support for claims that 'poppers' pose a significant health hazard.
In summary, it is not logical to cite references that vaguely mention nitrite use as a risk factor for Kaposi’s sarcoma as evidence that there is a causal connection. Doing so appears to be an attempt to make the body of scientific publications supporting claims of hazard to be more substantial than it actually is.
The articles/studies that have been listed and cited as evidence for linking nitrite use and HIV and/or Kaposi’s sarcoma infection, do not support such claims. Moreover, many of them are not even valid studies.
The most serious problem is that behavioral studies cannot establish a causal relationship between nitrite use and HIV infection. Only associations between the two can be shown, and because two behaviors occur concurrently, it does not necessitate a relationship between them. A potential mechanism is that both substance use and sexual behavior may occur within the context of long-standing social networks.
The most logical explanation for the association between nitrite use and unsafe sex is that it results from an underlying personality characteristic that predisposes some men to risky behaviors, and that sexual risk-taking and substance use are just two such behaviors observed in men with risk-taking behavior. The risk for KS is highest among those who lead a particular kind of sexual lifestyle, characterized not only by nitrite use, but also by multiple, anonymous sexual partners.
The relationship of nitrite use (or any other drug) with unsafe sex reflects the use of these substances specifically for the purpose of sexual enhancement among those who are already having unsafe sex. Another possibility is that the substance is used as an excuse, not the real reason, for risky behavior. Furthermore, nitrites are readily available in places of higher risk behavior, such as pornographic theaters and bookstores.
To further complicate the issue, there are confounding factors, especially the fact that most of the men who abuse nitrites also use other substances. Therefore, it is impossible to elucidate the impact of each substance separately. It is of particular consequence if injected drugs are used in conjunction with nitrites. The sharing of needles is a well-established route of HIV infection.
A limitation of the behavioral studies is that a restricted number of potential risk factors for unsafe sex are studied, and many others (e.g., additional immune parameters, anxiety, nutritional status, specific types of social support) remain to be investigated. Some of these other parameters may be underlying causes of both risky behavior and drug abuse or induce a decrease in immune function, subsequently enabling HIV infection to occur more readily. It is likely that the immune status of those who use drugs may already be compromised as a result of an unhealthy lifestyle or other psychological factors.
There are several methodological weaknesses of the behavioral studies. The first is that drug exposure and sexual information are derived from self-reports, which is subject to recall bias. The validity of the research relies on the accuracy of the reporter and if they are using drugs or alcohol, they may not remember specific drug use, or have an altered perception of their actions.
Another experimental design flaw is that important controls are not performed. An example of this is that rectal bleeding during sex with nitrite use is not taken into account, and the bleeding could be the causative factor in HIV infection. In addition, since the detection of HIV seroconversion is not always accurate, infection may have occurred before the questionnaire began in the seroconversion studies. This could potentially alter the results of the study.
Furthermore, the populations in most of the studies are homogenous and do not represent the entire population of gay or bisexual men. Perhaps this is an explanation for the disparity in results in some of the research.
Although it is proposed that nitrite use can facilitate HIV infection and KS, one of the references listed three articles for and three against association of nitrite use with HIV seropositivity and KS. When conflicting data is presented, one cannot conclude that nitrite use is involved in these illnesses.
The "Health Hazards" section of the 'poppers' article has been slightly modified to reflect these facts. New Orleans Jazz 01:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The most common name for these products is "Poppers". Also common are the names "Rush", "Locker Room", "Brown Bottle", and in the UK "Liquid gold". Rocky Mountain Stream 00:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the section, and replaced it with a single external link to the site concerned. The section was longer than the article itself, and had several paragraphs of analysis, which didn't belong there. HawkerTyphoon 01:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
There have been several media reports of relatively young gay males dying after using poppers and viagra. Three deaths were reported in Los Angeles/West Hollywood shortly after Viagra became available. And there has been a death in Boston. Hankwilson 02:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson
The reference section needs reinstatement. The Oct 29 replacement by HawkerTyphoon linked to a pro poppers site which fails to list many scientific publications.
The analyses of the published studies should be limited to the discussion/talk section of Wikipedia.
I've reverted the poppers article to the last version before yesterday's mass deletion of the entire References section. The stated reason for deleting the References section was that it "had several paragraphs of analysis, which didn't belong there". The study analyses are revealing, and it seems reasonable for them to accompany the studies listed in the References section. Any decision to remove entire sections from an article should be discussed on the Talk page, and agreed upon under a consensus before the deletion occurs.
A long-standing statement about Viagra® and poppers was also deleted yesterday. The reason, as described in the Discussion section, was: "There have been several media reports of relatively young gay males dying after using poppers and Viagra®. Three deaths were reported in Los Angeles/West Hollywood shortly after Viagra® became available. And there has been a death in Boston". If these deaths occurred, it's important information that should be included the Health Hazards section, along with information about any subsequent deaths since that time. But, it's also important that the articles being used to support such a statement are cited, so as to avoid the potential of making inaccurate statements based on rumors or gossip. Until there is proper support for a statement that mixing poppers and Viagra® actually causes death -- rather than it "may cause death" -- then, one cannot say it has actually happened.
Yesterday's edits also included an inappropriate effort to insert various popper brand names into the Street Names section, and those have been removed now.
Wikipedia points out that, while edits made in a collaborative spirit involve considerably more time and thought then reflexive reverts, they are far more likely to ensure both mutually satisfactory and more objective articles. I hope we can keep the poppers article contributions and discussions on the high road, so that the article can be both objective and accurate. Mass deletions of entire sections in an article are not appropriate without first having a thorough discussion and then arriving at a genuine consensus about such deletions.
It's important to consider that over the past year, the poppers page has become more and more accurate, making it a more sophisticated article, worthy of Wikepedia inclusion. The goal should be that it becomes one of the most well-researched and factually-supported articles on Wikipedia. Lt. Dan 17:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to HawkerTyphoon, who requested an "automatic peer review" for the poppers article, the review was done today, and there are some good ideas for improving the poppers article in the review.
The automated peer review's most notable suggestion, is about the Lead. Per Wikipedia, they state that "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and describing its notable controversies, if there are any. It should be between one and four paragraphs long, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear and accessible style so that the reader is encouraged to read the rest of the article."
Anyone care to dig in and give it a try? Lt. Dan 05:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Would you be kind enough to discuss , on the poppers article Talk/Discussion page, any changes before you make them? This gives other interested parties an opportunity to comment.
In the edit summary, you gave as the reason for your deletion of the mention about RUSH being the most common brand: "removed reference to Rush - is it the most popular? we can't prove it, as people are hardly going to keep records of buying the stuff!"
The reason I noted that RUSH appears to be the most common of the bottled alkyl nitrites was because when you Google poppers, or rush poppers, etc, it becomes readily apparent that it's the brand that seems to be the one most talked about. There are numerous mentions on web sites where poppers are sold that RUSH is the most popular brand. Also, the Wall Street Journal printed the claim in it's front page story on poppers (In the piece, they claimed that both RUSH and Locker Room were the most common brands). And, it's common knowledge that "Rush" is one of only a few street names for poppers; it's actually synonymous with the word poppers. When a brand name becomes synonymous with the category of product, then it's one of the more common brands, if not the most popular. This would hold true for any category of product.
IMHO the Lead should give, as a point of reference to what these products are, at least one brand name so the reader is better informed.
That's why I think the sentence should be reinserted in the Lead. 200.91.90.34 00:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Information and content in the lead section is supposed to be well sourced and cited; everything I've added has been thoroughly fact-checked, cited and is fully supported.
I reverted to the previous version because Hank Wilson essentially destroyed the section with his edit, including deleting much of the section, and inserting unsupported statements and comments which should be in the TALK page, or in other sections of the article.
Replacing 'avant guard heterosexuals' with the phrase 'men who have sex with men' is inappropriate and misrepresents what avant guard heterosexuals are. It is also redundant, since the first part of the sentence had already stated poppers are popular "among homosexuals". MDwife 21:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
My earlier edit of the lead section was an attempt to make the section referring to controversy neutral. It is not neutral. It states the controversy, i.e. whether poppers are connected to AIDS, but is one sided. It renders a verdict citing as evidence a 1977 news article and a 1983 Consumer Products Safety Commission Study. Although it acknowledges dozens of studies have been conducted, it fails to summarize the findings and concerns which support a connection with AIDS.It acknowledges that research continues but fails to state that is because research to date has found a connection to AIDS. The connection to AIDS is two fold, either of which warrants inclusion and explanation.First, poppers are immunosuppressive and might increase the susceptibility to infections, including HIV and KS.Second,poppers effect sexual behavior increasing the risk of getting infected with HIV.There are dozens of published epidemiological studies citing this association.It is fine to include that association is not proof of causation. I have not included them to date in the reference section because it seems that most people acknowledge the disinhibiting effect of poppers. I have focused on the research showing that poppers are immunosuppressive because most people, including AIDS researchers and service providers are unfamiliar with the accumulating findings.
Seems reasonable to state both sides. One side says poppers have been used safely for a long time and that the concern about them being connected to AIDS is unwarranted. The other side says accumulating research finds popper use is immunosuppressive and might increase susceptibility to infections, including HIV and KS. Epidemiological research finds using poppers is associated with increasing risky sexual behavior increasing the likelihood of HIV infection.Its neutral to refer to research limitations citing conflicting results, but important to add that there have been variations in protocols(dose quantity,dose frequency,mice, rat, human subjects)which might explain those variations.
There are credentialed scientists and activists on both sides of the controversy. The research continues precisely because of the findings to date,limitations acknowledged. A great example is the 1999 Soderberg study .... finding that tumor growth was promoted when mice were exposed to nitrite vapors. I think folks trying to navigate safely through the AIDS epidemic should benefit from the research to date. There is no claim that the research to date is definitive.
Its important to note that the publicized 1983 CDC mice study heralded by the poppers industry as vindicating their product did find that mice exposed to the highest dose,those that did not die, showed signs of thymus atrophy....the thymus is source of t cells....you do not want it to atrophy. That was a big clue that it was effecting the immune system.
The cigarette industry has its "experts" and denied for decades that nicotine was harmful. I see a replay with the poppers industry denying that there product is hazardous.That www.allaboutpoppers.com failed to cite any researchwith cautionary findings until recently belies their goal. That they are now debunking and dismissing ALL the research to date as flawed also belies their goal. They understand that thinking consumers will self correct. Some will stop using poppers. Others will use less and use less often. Their profits will be impacted as people are informed. Granted, about a third of gay guys will use poppers independent of research results. And a third already hate poppers. Its the middle third which could go either way which is the focus of efforts to educate consumers.
Bruce Voeller's archives include material which shows how the poppers industry lobbied and campaigned to defeat any consumer education and protection efforts. Yet, Congress, prodded by gay activists passed the 1991 ban on sales and distribution. In San Francisco, in 1982, the gay doctors group, Bay Area Physician for Human Rights,worked with the Committee to Monitor Poppers to get the SF Board of Supervisors to pass a point of sale warning...if you sold poppers, you had to post a warning to consumers that poppers might be immunosuppressive... To date the poppers industry has circumvented consumer protection laws by self labeling its products as room odorizers and video head cleaners. They have failed to do the safety testing required if they marketed an acknowledged drug. And as for the long history of amyl nitrite being used as a prescription drug, there was no safety testing to see its impact on the immune system...back in the 1800s when it was originally developed. And not so sure that cornonary users were taking 30 hits at a session. 128.218.39.163 00:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson 128.218.39.163 00:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The reference section erroneously cites a 2004 Soderberg study..."Tumor growth promoted..." That study was done in 1999 and already cited. there two analyses for this study...one under the correct chronological date - 1999, and a second under the erroneous date 2004...I would like to delete the erroneous cite. Posting this as a courtesy and also to point out that there exists an second analysis...to this one study ...both by New Orleans Jazz.
one study, one author, but two analyses??I assume any reference analysis can be wiki modified just like any other article ...an alternative to modifying and expanding the analyses is to have multiple analysis..."Analysis 1"..."Analysis 2"... or finally and probably the best option is to cite more from the original publication. 128.218.39.163 01:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson 128.218.39.163 01:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Merck Manual's omission of the research about poppers being immunosuppressive is unfortunate, but not surprising. Wikipedia has the opportunity to be cutting edge by noting the accumulating immunosuppression research about poppers.Wikipedia's "poppers" article is now listed prior to www.allaboutpoppers.com which has been number 1 or 2 for over 4 years. Google and Yahoo used to accept sponsored ads from the poppers industry. Then both responsibly reviewed information they became aware of and changed their practice. Merck will be informed of the immunosuppression research and its implications for increasing susceptibility to HIV infection.
Poppers have gone off the radar screen several times....when HIV was discovered, when the KS virus HHV-8 was discovered, when Congress banned sales and distribution of poppers, when the poppers industry misinforms people with www.allaboutpoppers.com propaganda site. Unfortunately many HIV researchers and service providers are unfamiliar with the published research about poppers. You wouldn't find any reference to the immunosuppression research if you relied on www.allaboutpoppers.com . Prior to its recent content change it made NO reference to any of the immunosuppression research. Hankwilson 07:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 07:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is it that once this poppers article was finally being improved significantly, Hank Wilson and his side kick, Dalmation55, came in and vandalized it to the point that it no longer even has a Lead section?
The last time I visited the site a week ago, it had been dramatically improved. Now it's been trashed by these two nutterballs.
You guys should take your beef against poppers elsewhere. Or, if they have any legitamasy at all, then you should prove it. So far you've proven nothing except that you're narrow minded zealots who seem to live only to shove your opinions down the throats of others. Toejam34 21:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Toejam!
Wikipedia is not here for the conspiratorial promotion of Pac West products or websites. The constant commercial promotion of Pac West products, and linking to Pac West websites, has been a feature of the sabotage performed by one media identified indvidual (probably based in Florida). This individual has been responsible for a campaign across the internet which recommends inhaling Pac West "room odoriser" products. This is not only a danger to public health - it is an attempt to outwit enforcement.
Your silly insults "nutterballs" and so forth indicate that you are unaware of the serious nature of this issue. I am sure that you will change your mind in the coming months.
I think this article is valuable to both consumers and historians to include both pro citations and con citations and a spectrum of points of view.
:: As for the credibility of the www.allaboutpoppers.com website...Google has pulled this website from its search results for "poppers"...and that website had been listed number one or two for over 4 years. Several months ago the content of www.allaboutpoppers.com was changed...totally...I believe in response to the realization that the accumulating research about poppers is the achilles heal of the poppers industry. Earlier commentary on this discussion indicated that the www.allaboutpoppers.com was linked to selling poppers/the poppers industry. www.allaboutpoppers.com self pro claimed characterization about being the most credible source of information about poppers is challengable when it fails to cite most of the published scientific research on poppers, limitations acknowledged. Most of the pro poppers commentary and testimonials have been made prior to most of the published scientific research. Note the dates of the articles cited, testimonial dates, etc. or the omission of such.
In 1981, in response to the initial reports of gay men dying of pneumocystis pneumonia and Kaposi's Sarcoma(KS), the Committee to Monitor Poppers was formed by gay men in San Francisco. The goal was to educate the gay community about the known and potential hazards of using poppers. Doctors were involved from the beginning. Previously in 1977, Dr. Richard Hamilton cautioned gay men that poppers were hazardous and he unsuccessfully petitioned the California Health Department to stop sales of poppers. In 1982, the Bay Area Physicians for Human Rights, a gay and lesbian doctors organization, joined the Committee to Monitor poppers in successfully lobbying the San Francisco Board of Supervisors to mandate that warnings be posted where poppers were sold. The city of West Hollywood passed a similar poppers point of sale warning law. In 1986, The California AIDS Advisory Commission, recommended that California pass a similar state popppers point of sale warning mandate. Several doctors were on the commission and state law mandated that a warning be posted where poppers were sold.
Hank Wilson was a founder of the Committee to Monitor Poppers. He and John Lauritsen co authored DEATHRUSH, a book about the hazards of using poppers in 1985. Lauritsen subsequently became a leading AIDS denialist while Wilson continued gay rights and AIDS activism.In 1985 Wilson co founded Mobilization Against AIDS. In 1987, Wilson was diagnosed with AIDS and as of 2006 is a long term survivor, and continues his AIDS activism. It is a distortion of reality to characterize Wilson as an AIDS denialist. Popper proponents mischaracterize Wilson in an attempt to discredit his education efforts about poppers. Hankwilson 03:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 03:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Latest "poppers industry" attempt to push the inhalant Rush (see >captainrush.com/condom.php and pwdeuropa.com/hir_c.html) Condoms with Captain Rush on the label? No doubt this will be presented as a "safe sex" message. PWD and Great Lakes Products have a long history of promoting safe sex, don't they?
A little help with the history:
Actually, Hank, I was in San Francisco at the time this was happening. When writing history it can be helpful to consider other's memories, too.
As you'll recall, your 'committee to monitor poppers' was your own vehicle. It was originally a one-man committee you created and it consisted of only you. The only other 'gay man' originally involved was John Lauritsen from New York, and he didn't hook up with you until later. He's on record as saying as much.
You're right about the point-of-sale warning signs. They were a good idea, only not because there was any proof that poppers were harmful (because there was none) but precisely because it couldn't be proven 100% that they were not harmful. (It's impossible to prove a negative, so better safe than sorry). As it later turned out, scientists discovered that poppers were not the cause of AIDS or KS after-all. However, once you'd written that poppers caused AIDS and were dangerous, you and Lauritsen could never let go of, and decided to use it as a platform for an ongoing campaign against poppers.
The book that you and Lauritsen co-wrote, Deathrush, though a cute play on words, was actually panned as a poorly-written alarmist pamphlet, and disregarded by all but a handful of rabid anti-HIV radicals.
As you'll recall, when you first started pushing it in San Francisco, Deathrush was the the subject of ridicule. And, I'm not making this up, it has remained the subject of ridicule by readers the entire time it's been on Amazon.com, even today as evidenced by the following post which typifies the almost unanimous disdain for your book by readers:
September 20, 1998 Reviewer's post on Amazon.com:... This is junk science at its worse.
Lauritsen and Wilson sadly have it all wrong in a booklet that is nearly twenty years old. Their theories about "poppers" and AIDS are as outside the mainstream of responsible research as are their theories that AIDS is NOT caused by the HIV virus.
Such junk science, as exemplified in this small booklet, should indeed be "out of print", since it terribly misleads the reader and does a disservice to all those impacted and affected by HIV and AIDS....
It's not a distortion of reality to characterize you as an AIDS denialist. Go back and reread the articles in the New York Native and Christopher Street magazine, both published by your AIDS denialist colleagues. You and Lauritsen were joined at the hip in your zeal to keep shouting that AIDS was not caused by HIV, and that it was caused by among other things poppers. It's all there in black and white.
For a guy who prides himself on being a "gay rights and AIDS activist" it is inconsistent with all that that means for you to suggest that a company is less then a good corporate citizen when it promotes safer sex through the use of condoms. Unless you really have changed your earlier position that HIV does not cause AIDS, you should know and believe that condoms are one of the very best ways to help stop the spread of AIDS, and you should encourage their use at all times. Using that criteria the Captain RUSH Condom ( http://www.captainrush.com/condom.php) is a welcome addition to the arsenal of weapons in the war on AIDS. If they get more people to wear condoms, that can only be a good thing.
I think your remark suggesting Great Lakes Products didn't have a history of promoting safe sex seemed a bit inappropriate. You'll remember that they actually did have a long history. I can remember that even before anyone knew what caused AIDS, Great Lakes Products was running full page ads in most of the important gay magazines and newspapers encouraging people to be careful and take care of themselves. I think they ran them for over a year. You can see the ads in the major gay archives in Los Angeles and New York City. They deservedly got a lot of positive publicity for their efforts.
You'd have to ask others in the community, but I'm certain that since the 1970's the makers of the PWD brands have donated a lot of their profits toward the support of important causes and issues, including promoting safe sex. Daddlylonglegs 02:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks like the anti popper Hank Wilson and his alter ego Dalmation have taken over the page on poppers.
Too bad. Wilson has run off any credible sources of information in his attempts to stiffle debate on the issue of poppers, like he's been doing here in San Francisco for years. A one sided debate is hardly a debate. But anyone who lives here and has ever followed the poppers debate probably knows who Hank Wilson is; it's common knowledge here that he's pretty much a nutter ball on this issue. It's his only 'claim to fame' and helps keep him in at least the gay press once in a while. That may excite Wilson, but it's unfair to the public who deserve a two-sided debate.
No matter what Wilson says to the contrary, the record is full of data that shows poppers to be relatively harmelss, even if they're inhaled for enhancing sexual pleasure. For all Wilson's trashing of the site called all about poppers www.allaboutpoppers.com, it's actually one of the most credible sites about poppers to be found anywhere on the web. There is no credible evidence after all these years that shows poppers to be significantly harmful. Wilson's own studies that he banters about are so flawed their credibility rating is essentially zero.
Just a few weeks ago a major study was released that showed poppers had no impact on sero conversion in MSM who were HIV+. Where's Wilson on that one?
Minnie1964 02:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
It's an illegal drug. Get over it! They sell it as a video cleaner for a reason! And your Poppers ads on allaboutpoppers aren't any neutral information at all. -- 91.89.6.50 19:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Sadly you have it wrong again. "Poppers" are not a drug. Check your facts. And, they're sold as video head cleaner for obvious reasons. Everyone knows that. You are also wrong about all about poppers.com, it has no ads and it's the best site on the web for information about poppers. Tell us of another site you're aware of that has more information or better information. We're all ears and would all be happy to have a peak. BTW, the site is not 'mine' as you imply. You anti popper types are all alike: you don't have any basis in fact for your outrageous claims that poppers are harmful, you cannot engage in civil or coherent debate on the issue, you disregard and dismiss valid science in favor of flawed studies and biased reporting, and you're basically just wrong about nearly everything you believe and espouse about poppers. On top of all that, you personally attack anyone who disagrees with you rather than trying to support your position with valid information and fact. You really should one day open your minds and look at the facts. But right back acha: Poppers are safe and the world is round, not flat. And YOU need to "get over it!".
Minnie1964 04:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Hank Wilson and Dalmation are part of the 'flat earth society' for sure, but I wonder if they think Homosexual EVIL is everywhere, too. I wonder if they're just another couple of queens who have internalized homophobia and just like the fallen preachers we see every day, they know they've 'sinned' by doing poppers and they want to atone for their 'sins'. I just saw this in a forum and it strikes me that it sounds like Wilson/Dalmation and his/her/their war on poppers:
Satan spoke thru his servant Bill again: > And Max spoke through his sock puppet "Virtuous" again.
I speak for myself...and for Jesus Christ, naturally.
> Yes, thirty years ago every family was all "Leave It to Beaver" and "I > Love Lucy".
I never said that. But fifty years ago most families were at least together and not in tatters. I think we could all learn a lot from Ward and June Cleaver...except that Beaver needed more discipline. He was always disobeying his parents and getting into trouble
> I think you need to be "degraded" and see how good it really feels.
I already know what a dog's tongue feels like on my hand. Only a pervert would enjoy such sensations...especially on the body's more private parts. Ugh!
> Probably less than you, Max.
I'm Velma. You're terribly confused. Do you use those poppers to dilate your rectum when you engage in sexual perversions?
> I'm sorry that the lesbian lover you had was so poor at it.
I know how to resist lesbians. A knuckle sandwich works just fine against their slurpy tongues.
> So what's your point? Different tastes for different people? I can agree > with that.
But homosexuals tastes are perverted. They seek out degradation. Do you know that they lick each others buttcracks and then French kiss?
> Thank god for that!
But that's what unleashed the aids on the world. Have you been tested?
> No they don't.
Rectal prolapse is common among gayo men and bisexual porn whores.
> Aww...poor Max is running away.
No. He's just resisting conversion. You'll never sleep with him again though. Praying for decent people who are careful to avoid wickedness... Wholly holy, good and Godly gospel witness Chaingangball 22:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The Pac West puppets (PWP's) are on good form! Hello "gentlemen"! or is that the singular? Chaingangball is probably best ignored as even JM / PWP's don't stoop to this level.
"You anti popper types are all alike: you don't have any basis in fact for your outrageous claims that poppers are harmful, you cannot engage in civil or coherent debate on the issue, you disregard and dismiss valid science in favor of flawed studies and biased reporting, and you're basically just wrong about nearly everything you believe and espouse about poppers. On top of all that, you personally attack anyone who disagrees with you rather than trying to support your position with valid information and fact."
This is great stuff! Bully for you. Thanks for saying it so well. Hank Wilson and his friend Dalamation -- popper haters each (I wonder, too, if they are the same person) -- have continually vandalized this wikipedia article on poppers for the last year or more. He has removed all the wonderful analysis to the flawed "studies" he's posted in this article, and constantly alters and edits any posts to remove information he does not agree with.
Seems he can't justify his position, and instead deletes anything that challenges him.
Gostu98 04:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The PWP's (Pac West Puppets) strike again! LOL "all the wonderful analysis" you mention.. bought and paid for by guess who?????? Not the highly regulated and reputable "poppers industry" surely? The guys that sell inhalants as cleaners? I am sure that we can trust them...what d'ya all think? Do you think that they give a fig if you cause yourself long term damage by involving yourself with their hyped up product?
Shine the light of truth on the cockroaches and they'll get back to the dark poverty from whence they came.
I think this article and its discussion page are a good illustration of the fact that the Wikipedia principle just doesn't work out. Drug producers promote their drug here which is illegal in most countries, they declare scientific results as "not neutral", they accuse others of homophobia and publish disgusting hate texts against homosexuals themselves, and even though they're ignorant of the medical research on the topic and of the background needed to understand it consider themselves responsible for "guarding" the article. Isn't that absurd? How can Wikipedia ever aim at becoming a reliable source of information with letting such things happening?
Looking at the texts above, I consider Wikipedia rather a platform for hate speech than an encyclopedia. The claim of being the latter is an insult to the true encylopedists, especially Denis Diderot. -- 85.216.120.103 18:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia has the most comprehensive bibliography of research on poppers. Research is accumulating since the spotlight was shined on poppers back in 1981 when popper use was suspected of causing AIDS, initially called GRID for "Gay related immunodeficiency disease".The research to date has limitations, but taken as a whole, it shows that poppers are not the harmless drug that its manufacturers and sellers claim.Admittedly, the research has limitations but the high prevalence of use by gay/bi men compels more research.
Poppers are cheap to make, profitable to sell. There is an incentive for popper sellers to proclaim poppers safe, distort or deny research,and make ad hominem attacks on those who publicize the potential dangers. There is always a significant segment that will continue to use harmful products after learning they are harmful. Individual choice. Informed choice seems a reasonable goal.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hankwilson ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
Take a look at the German Wikipedia: Poppers -- The bibliography has just been deleted there. This has happened here as well and it had to be restored continuously. Without continuous "guarding" of the page all scientific content will erode sooner or later. Wikipedia is garbage. -- 87.139.42.96 11:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Why has every nation worldwide BANNED poppers, Cactuspus? It is illegal to sell inhalants! Drugs which dramatically lower blood pressure are a danger to public health, and that is why the sale was made illegal. Why do the poppers industry feel able to circumvent the law? Are they above it? Please answer my questions. These "bought and paid for" reports and other falsehoods planted in the gay press in the 90's are symptomatic of an industry filled with hubris and greed. Rather like a Columbian cartel commisioning a report on the benefits of cocaine.
Cactuspus, may I ask you a favour? please never use the term "nazi" again..you clearly do not understand it's meaning
Dalmation55 15:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The above has been copied to German Wikipedia by Cactuspuss, see
[2]. The German Poppers page has been blocked from editing after I had tried to restore the scientific references, and the administrators call them "wissenschaftliche Irrlehre" (= "scientific heresy"). What do you now think of Wikipedia? --
87.139.42.96
15:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't care anymore. If these pages are transformed into ads for illegal drugs, this would only be more proof that Wikipedia is garbage. Why should I waste my time in guarding scientific content on an anti-scientific platform? Go to hell! -- 91.89.6.103 19:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Just dropping by to share something.
Hank Wilson and Dalmatian may be one in the same, but it appears Dalmatian, when he posts without signing on trying to hide his identity, is always using the same server in Germany. Wilson uses severs in San Francisco. (If Wilson lives in San Francisco, this would make sense unless he's doing some fancy VPN from elsewhere.)
Dalmatian is either in Germany, or he's eslewhere in Europe (perhaps even in one of the alledged shady Eastern European countries). Given the change in IP addresses when he posts, he's probaby moving around and using WiFi at one or more different coffeeshops near where he lives. Or maybe he's using VPN from somewhere.
Because he complained about a German Wikipedia page having administrators who are blocking him from vandalizing the German Wiki poppers page, it's likely that they know him well over there.
This all points to the real possibility that Dalmatian and Wilson are working together in some coordination of their anti-popper campaign, and that the Europeans are keeping them from vandalizing their Wiki pages.
That's how it looks from here.
In case anyone is interested here's the trail that I discovered:
23 Jan 07 19:47 Dalmatian threatened a poster by telling the poster to "Go to hell!!" Dalmatian used: IP address is 91.89.6.103 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
23 Jan 07 Dalmatian Complaining about being blocked from vandalizing the German Wikipedia with Hank Wilson's flawed bibliography Dalmatian used: IP address is 87.139.42.96 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
23 Jan 07 15:13 Dalmatian proclaiming that Cactuspus cross posted to the German Wikipeia Dalmatian used: IP address is 87.139.42.96 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
23 Jan 07 11:09 Dalmatian/Hank Wilson posted the following in Talk:
22 January 2007 11:24 Dalmatian posted Talk "take a look at German Wikipeia...." Dalmatian used: IP address is 87.139.42.96 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
16 January 2007 19:38 Anonymous poster (probably Dalmatian or a sock puppet) questions someone's challenge to the POV of Hank Wilson's flawed list of references by deleting the Wiki alert on POV-Section. They also said: "References - These are scientific quotes. Why is this considered POV? If science is POV, what isn't?" IP address is 91.89.6.50 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
9 December 2006 07:08 Hank Wilson posted in Talk using: IP address is 209.244.188.83 City: San Francisco California Country: United States Continent: North America Time Zone: PST
9 December 2006 06:36 Hank Wilson posted using the following IP: IP address is 209.244.188.83 City: San Francisco California Country: United States Continent: North America Time Zone: PST Msmchaser 23:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I have never posted on the German wikipedia page and have no idea what you are talking about. Conspiracy theories apppeal to those that fear authority, do they not? I feel rather embarassed for you, you are clearly a very silly person. Dalmation55 14:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone earlier mentioned an Australian study and I located it. True enough, it shows that there is no link between popper use and unprotected sex amongst HIV-positive gay men, at least not in Sydney, one of the world's major cities.
Hank Wilson continues to deny it, but the Australian researchers seem to have just confirmed it: Earlier studies looking at the relationship between recreational drug use and sexual risk taking have produced conflicting results. Although some studies, often conducted in the US, have found a link between the use of specific illicit drugs, particularly methamphetamine, and unprotected anal sex, these findings have not been supported by other studies. There have also been methodological limitations with many studies, particularly as they have simply tried to establish if unprotected sex and drug taking occurred within the same time period, not on the same occasion.
In this new research the investigators found that “illict drug use was no greater in encounters in which a condom was not used than in those which a condom was used.”
I'm sure Wilson will attempt to debunk this study, too, but it'd be better if he'd just allow both sides of the story to be told, and not fear an open discussion on the matter.
Reference
Prestage G et al. Use of illicit drugs among gay men living with HIV in Sydney. AIDS 21( suppl 1): S49 – 55, 2007.
Msmchaser 20:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added a comprehensive Lead to the article containing links to sites mentioned -- including especially a link to the web's most anti-popper site. I included links to all referenced sites in the Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy including two popper sites referenced there (Neither of which appear to sell to the public and which seem to be informational only. From an historical and sociological perspective it seemed to me to make sense to include them, but if there is common consent to remove the popper sites I will do so.) I believe this Lead adds to the article and hope it can stand. MDwife 14:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Scheinwerfermann 00:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I really enjoy reading Joe Miller's pompous orations on this page. Keep it up Joe - you should have been a lawyer! DrNog 11:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is the source of sometimes heated debate and needs careful attention.
If you are compelled to edit please do not not delete entire entries. Instead please use Talk to discuss your edits preferably before they are made.
Playing nice would be appreciated. MDwife 23:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Just an add on: At the moment the wiki page on poppers certainly needs to be checked for neutrality, I would contest the statement that alkyl nitrites are 'mentally addictive drugs'.
Poppers risk factor for HIV/Sexually transmitted infections:A Review
A review of club drugs found the most evidence for methamphetamine and volatile nitrites for being associated with HIV/sexually transmitted infections. See www.Pubmed.gov ( PMID 17002993): "Club drugs as causal risk factors for HIV acquisition among men who have sex with men: a review." by Drumright,LN et al. in Substance Use and Misuse 2006;41(10-12):1551-601.
The authors reviewed medical and pyschology databases for articles published between January 1980 and August 2005 demonstrating associations between HIV/Sexually Transmitted Infection risk and club drug use.They reviewed 74 articles and found 30 with adjusted risk ratios for associations with HIV/STD infections and club drug use by men who have sex with men. After constructing a conceptual framework of biologically plausible pathways for causation, they used Hill's criteria to examine club drugs as causal risks for HIV. They found the most evidence for methamphetamine and volatile nitrites.They acknowledged that more research is needed. Hankwilson 16:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 16:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
"A study has found that the majority of HIV-positive gay men in Sydney, Australia, used “party drugs” such as ecstasy in the previous six months. However, no significant relationship was found by the investigators between recreational drug use and unprotected anal sex with casual partners. The study is published in a special supplement to the January 2nd edition of AIDS. The investigators comment, “the relationship between illicit drug use and risk behaviour is neither simple nor direct.”
Earlier studies looking at the relationship between recreational drug use and sexual risk taking have produced conflicting results. Although some studies, often conducted in the US, have found a link between the use of specific illicit drugs, particularly methamphetamine, and unprotected anal sex, these findings have not been supported by other studies. There have also been methodological limitations with many studies, particularly as they have simply tried to establish if unprotected sex and drug taking occurred within the same time period, not on the same occasion.
Investigators from Sydney therefore designed a study to explore the relationship between illicit drug use and a sample of HIV-positive gay men enrolled in the ongoing Positive Health study. They examined the factors differentiating drug users from non-users and looked at the use of drugs both generally and on specific occasions, particularly during casual sexual encounters.
A total of 274 men were included in the study in 2004 and 209 attended a second follow-up visit in 2005. In face-to-face interviews, the men were asked about their sexual identity, involvement in the gay community, contact with the HIV epidemic, sexual relationships, sexual practices with both regular and casual partners, and their drug and alcohol use. Information was also gathered on age, education, area of residence, employment and income.
Almost all the men (94%) identified as gay, and the majority participated in the gay scene, with 63% reporting that most or all their friends were gay and 58% said that they spent a lot of their free time with gay men. The men had a mean age of 45 years, 75% were Anglo-Australian, 40% had been to university, 63% were employed, and 50% earned at least AU$32,000 a year.
Most of the men reported the use of some illicit drug in the previous six months. The most commonly used drugs were amyl nitrite (poppers), which were used by 51% of men and marijuana, which 63% of individuals said they had used. A “party drug” of some kind was used by just over 50% of men. Ecstasy was the most frequently taken drug of this kind, being used by 40% of men. Methamphetamine was used by 22% of men, although only 6% reported its use on a monthly basis and 3% said that they used it weekly.
Factors significantly associated with use of party drugs in 2004 were younger age (p < 0.001), socialising on the gay party scene (p < 0.001), and engagement in esoteric sexual practices (p < 0.001).
Interviews with 209 men from 2005 were also available for analysis. The results were broadly similar than those for 2004, with 52% saying they had used party drugs. The investigators also found that the same factors were significantly associated with party drug use.
The investigators then turned their attention to the answers the men provided about drug use during sexual encounters. In the six months before the 2004 interview, 48% of men said that they had had used illicit drugs to enhance pleasure during a casual sexual encounter. The most commonly used drugs were poppers (62%), alcohol (43%), and erectile dysfunction drugs (35%). Methamphetamine use during casual sex was reported by 22% of men, and the investigators found that two-thirds of these men used an erectile dysfunction drug at the same time.
Of the men interviewed in 2005, 46% (131) reported unprotected anal intercourse with a casual partner in the previous six months. Of these men, 103 provided detailed information about their most recent sexual encounters. The investigators found that “illict drug use was no greater in encounters in which a condom was not used than in those which a condom was used.”
Reference
Prestage G et al. Use of illicit drugs among gay men living with HIV in Sydney. AIDS 21( suppl 1): S49 – 55, 2007. MDwife 22:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the claim that poppers are "mentally addictive drugs". The article on addiction says that psychological addiction is not the result of anything inherent about the substance, but repeated behaviour being associated with endorphins. Poppers, therefore, are exactly as addictive as square dancing. The citations said nothing, they merely both linked to ads for a book with chapters titled "inhalant addiction" and "amyl nitrite addiction".
-- Awesome 00:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I've tried poppers once. It wasn't very addictive. It just made gay sex fun.
121.6.225.88
The poppers article is getting better. There are fewer personal attacks in the discussion page too. If the extrremes can be kept at bay it may stay that way. Bay House Deals 02:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm performing a big cleanup of the article. I'm not going to add or remove any information, but I'm referencing anything I can find a reference for, and leaving requests for references for things that I can't find. I'll go through the references section itself as well, and remove anything that doesn't contribute to the article itself--it's pointless having a reference that isn't used IMO. If they're particularly relevent, but don't contribute, I may move them to the "External links" section.
I'm using footnote referencing, as that way, every fact can be verified, and the sources checked easily. I think one of the problems this article has had is that people have been adding information without references, and because the reference section is so huge, nobody's put the effort to see if it is actually true. me_and 17:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
A meta analysis of published research between 1980 and 2005 found "the most evidence for methamphetamine and volatile nitrites" use as a causal factors for acquisition of HIV/STDs. "Club Drugs as Causal Risk Factors for HIV Acquistion Among Men Who Have Sex with Men: A Review" in Sustance Use and Misuse, 41:1551-1601,2006. PMID 17002993. The authors found 17 studies that met their criteria: 13 demonstrating popper use as an association with acquisition of hiv/std or risky sexual behavior and 4 did not, "indicating good consistency and strength in association." There were 7 longitudinal studies, 3 case control studies, and seven cross-sectional studies. 6 or 7 longitudinal studies demonstrated associations between popper use and elevated incidence of sexually transmitted infections, unprotected anal intercourse with a serodiscordant ot unknown status partner, or relapse in condom use during anal sex; providing evidence for temporality.
The studies cited in this analysis can be cited and the evidence cited as a concern about popper use fueling the HIV epidemic among men who have sex with men.
The controversy section needs to cite 1.the role of poppers being a factor in behavior change leading to HIV acquisition.2. that poppers are immunosuppressive and the article needs to include every published article showing immunosuppression. Whether the immunosuppression is significant is debatable. It may be that dose, i.e. quantity of sniffs,or frequency of popper use may determine susceptibility to infection.
Published research about poppers should be cited and referenced. If you mention immunosuppression as a controversial issue then you should include all the studies that assess immunosuppression, independent of limitations. Most research has limitations hence almost every discussion section cites some. Hankwilson 20:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 20:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This recently published study PMID 17325605 underscores the importance of poppers use being a cofactor in HIV acquisition. This study should be in the reference section and cited with a cite number.
Artiles,documents,etc in the reference section should have numbers so that several studies can be cited in the the main article to validate a statement. For example, in the controversial issue of whether poppers are immunosuppressive, it would be helpful to have a dozen plus references, or their cite numbers, following such a contention. Makes it harder for the "poppers are not immunosuppressive, or not significantly immunosuppressive" to just dismiss the contention when the published research overtime is accumulating.
Taken as a whole, from 1980s onward, the evidence supports that poppers are immunosuppressive. "Significantly immunosuppressive" seems debatable and may depend upon the dose and frequency of popper use.
The reference list needs to retain all the studies showing immunosuppression, independent of whether there are study limitations. That they have been published in research journals should warrant their inclusion. Hankwilson 21:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 21:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Why have Pac West been allowed to vandalise this article YET again? Also, they are constantly planting their brand names on the article - Rush and their new brand, Locker Room. When will this be stopped? Is Wikipedia now accepting adverts from manufacturers of "room deodourizers?" This is shameful. Cue the usual puppets.... Dalmation55 12:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
They are known as poppers actually. Rush is a brand of room deodouriser, and is misused as poppers according to the Pac West website. Dalmation55 10:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
What total bullshit! The reason why many people point to Pac West (actually GLP, and the lonely owner) is that he has a long history of using this page as a link farm for allaboutpoppers.com. That dates back several years. I was not the first to point out who was behind this vandalism.
This crazy, and wholly innacurate attack, which is based on god knows what, is an indication that the poppers sellers are very active on wikipedia. Everyone knows this. It has been exposed many times. Dalmation55 10:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
More paranoid libel. I have never met, nor spoken with Hank Wilson, in my entire life. You clearly have a persecution complex. Your enterprise is based upon avoidance of enforcement against your product - misrepresentation as a deodoriser. This is simaltaneous with an online campaign to promote the misuse of inhlants as an aphrodisiac. This is probably illegal. You probably have more experience of the courts than I, dating back to the 1970s, so perhaps you have a better idea. I am sure that a conspiracy to outwit the enforcement of law has a name?
I can imagine that you have become very nervous, and irritable, given your clandestine activities. This imagined conspiracy against you is testament to the fact that you are not rational in your response to the widespread concern regarding the misuse of the inhalants that you are selling. Dalmation55 10:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Published research articles should be included in the reference section. There have been multiple deletions of published research which showed that popper use was a significant risk factor in unsafe sex and/or HIV infection, or that popper use had an effect on the immune system. When the article is reviewed, hopefully the reviewers will put the published articles back in the reference listings and utilize them in a controversial issues section. The achilles heal of the poppers industry is the published research which continues to accumulate. Reliance upon experts from the early and mid 80s is questionable since the research continued. Their views that poppers are harmless should be taken in a historical context. Most of the published research, risk for unsafe sex, hiv seroconversion, and immunosuppressive effects of poppers have been published after the experts went on record. Recent expert testimony supporting poppers, or giving them a "no risk" assessment are lacking. On the contrary, recent researchers are saying pay attention to poppers because they are a factor in fueling a continuing HIV/AIDS epidemic among men who have sex with men. Hankwilson 03:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 03:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Wilson: No responsible person is suggesting or encouraging the misuse of nitrites as poppers in this article. I respect your right to say anything you want, but what you've been saying in this article is not only alarmist and misleading, it is contrary to the general consensus of responsible researchers and studies on nitrites. For example, your position is at direct odds with this government study:
Alkyl Nitrites study -- As part of the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 (Section 4015), Congress requested that NIDA, through HHS, conduct a study of alkyl nitrites to determine the extent and public risk associated with alkyl nitrite use. For this study, NIDA analyzed data from three ongoing nationwide substance abuse surveys to ascertain trends in alkyl nitrite abuse in the general population and in specific sub-populations. In addition, NIDA conducted a technical review workshop on March 31, 1987 with leading authorities in the area of the alkyl nitrites. The study reviewed such topics as the extent of nitrite inhalant use among adolescents, homosexual men, and intravenous drug abusers; the results of acute toxicity studies in animals; and a review of the epidemiological associations of nitrites with Kaposi's sarcoma in AIDS. Based on the surveys and the workshop, the HHS Report to Congress concluded that nitrites are not a causal factor in AIDS infection. There was consideration during the workshop whether use of large amounts of nitrite inhalants might be a co-factor in Kaposi's sarcoma, but the Report stated that medical studies failed to confirm any such association. The Report also found that there was a 21% decrease in use by high school students in 1985-1986. Because of the lack of significant health risks associated with nitrite use, and the fact that less than 3% of the population has ever used it, the HHS Report suggested no Federal legislation and recommended that alkyl nitrites not be treated as drugs. Based on these recommendations, the Committee concludes that no further Federal action as to alkyl nitrites is warranted. However, in view of the Report's finding of somewhat increased use by high school students, the Committee recommends that the States consider prohibiting access by minors to alkyl nitrite products.
Msmchaser 15:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
To Msmchaser: The HHS study you cite was published over 20 years ago. Because of congressional legislation in 1986, NIDA conducted a human study to see if popper use effected the immune system. Elizabeth Dax et al. conducted the study which found that natural killer cell function was suppressed. The dosage of that study was less than a typical user might use because the Safety Monitoring Committee would not allow more than 3 sniffs. 3 sniffs would be at a low end of the sprectrum of quantity of use. See: Dax,E.M. et al. "Amyl Nitrite Alters Human In Vitro Immune Function" in Immunopharmacology and Immunotoxicology, 13(4), 557-587 (1991). This study was conducted in 1986, but the full report not published until 1991...a long lag time. And it was not properly indexed by the National Library of Medicine for a couple of years. The author did not include the key word AIDS in the summary, despite it being funded as an AIDS study. Community advocacy got National Library of Medicine to index it correctly. Also, the author moved to Australia and failed to publicize her findings to the affected gay community. I consulted with Dax. The Dax study is very significant because it was a human study, not a mice or rat study. It was done because of the 1986 Congressional mandate.
Since the Dax human study, NIDA has gone back to its mice and rat studies. The immunosuppression findings of the Soderberg lab and Fung HL /Tran labs are included in the reference section. The overwhelming immunosuppression research has been done subsequent to the HHS report of 1986 and makes that report important for a historical analysis only. That the report is used to exonerate the safety of popper use illustrates why the gay community is confused, mis informed about poppers. The HHS report findings are obsolete in the context of the accumalted research since the report was issued. Joseph Miller, owner of Great Lakes Products, contributed thousands of dollars to politicians and lobbied heavily to influence government non response to sales of an illegal drug. Popper ads boasted of selling 10,000 bottles of RUSH...DAILY around the world. Big profits. Miller hired the chief enforcement officer of the Consumer Products Safety Commission upon his retirement. CPSC fined Miller a token $10,000 for violating the law. Government inaction against the popper industry may be because the health and safety of gay men is not a priority. It could be the result of effective lobbying on Miller's part, or a combination of factors.Some researchers and prevention workers have shied away from poppers because Peter Duesberg, an AIDS denialist cites poppers as harmful.However, recently researchers have called attention to popper use in the HIV epidemic. A speaker at the opening plenary of the Toronto 2006 International AIDS Conference cited popper use, along with crystal meth, as a driving factor in the HIV epidemic among men who have sex with men. Hankwilson 16:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 16:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
See the reference listings for Dax, 1991, human study finding natural killer cell function suppressed. See reference listing for dozen Soderberg lab studies, and HL Fung and DC Tran lab studies...all finding immune suppression or disregulation. The epidemiological studies of Buchbinder, Colfax, Ostrow, Plankey, Lampien PMID 17362516, and Drumright all find popper use a significant risk factor in unsafe sex or HIV seroconversion. Some of these listings of published research were removed from the reference section. This makes the article less authoritative. It also weakens the position of those of us who are urging a cautious, reduce use, or stop use of poppers approach. Hankwilson 16:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 16:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Dax et al. (1991) Amyl nitrate alters human in vitro immune function. Immunopharmacology and Immunotoxicology, 13:557.
Keilbasa and Fung (2000) Nitrite Inhalation in Rats Elevates Tissue NOS III Expression and Alters Tyrosine Nitration and Phosphorylation. Biochem and Biophysic. Res. Comm, 275:335.
Tran et al (2003) Inhalant nitrite exposure alters mouse hepatic angiogenic gene expression. Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications, 310:439.
Msmchaser 02:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Who wants poppers banned? Apparently a question being asked twenty years ago as shown in the following:
A ‘Fact Sheet’, originally publish in 1988 by Chemsearch, Ltd, of Indianapolis, IN
Here are the facts
"Poppers"... What are they?
1. "Poppers" is the street term used for nearly 50 years to describe the misuse of any alkyl nitrite (including amyl nitrite, isobutyl nitrite and butyl nitrite) as inhalants for recreational purposes.
2. Although "Poppers" have only recently come to the public attention, alkyl nitrites have been inhaled for over one hundred years. They have had a long and well-documented history of public safety. This record is strongly reinforced by the fact that during the past 35 years a very high probability has existed that a large percentage of all nitrite odorants sold were misused as "poppers".
Who Wants Them Banned and Why?
1. Despite that long safety record of alkyl nitrites, the AIDS phenomenon opened the door of opportunity for certain self-serving individuals to promote themselves as “experts" on the study of "poppers" and to condemn their use as unsafe. These self-proclaimed "experts" did not have the knowledge of immunology or epidemiology to make informed judgments about AIDS or its cause. Real experts now tell us that AIDS is caused, not by "poppers", but by a virus and that the misuse of nitrites as "poppers" appears rather clearly NOT to be causally associated with AIDS or any of its opportunistic infections. In 1987, the large MCS study, among others, confirmed that no such connection exists.
Are They Really Safe?
1. Anti-"popper" individuals suggest "poppers" are unsafe because they are not regulated by any government agency. This is simply not true. Of the compounds most commonly used as "poppers", amyl nitrite is regulated by the FDA and nitrite-based room odorizers are regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Within the past few years, the CPSC has twice been asked to restrict isobutyl nitrite products and has twice, after thorough investigation, decided that the safety record of these products did not indicate that such action was necessary. Although responsible nitrite odorant manufacturers have never encouraged or promoted the misuse of their nitrite odorants as "poppers", they have long recognized the high probability of such misuse. They, therefore, have shared a deep concern and responsibility toward each responsible adult user of these products. (in much the same manner that responsible children's crayon manufacturers recognize that their crayons will be eaten and thus assure that they are safely edible.)
2. A review of the literature clearly shows that inhalation of the alkyl nitrites poses no significant health hazard. ©1988 by Chemsearch, Ltd
Daddlylonglegs 04:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Who are Chemsearch, Ltd? Anybody guess? The clue is in the location. Dalmation55 10:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I just realised that the recent vandalsim has been catastrophic. The usual "link farming" for allaboutpoppers.com, removal of any critical websites, and the planting of Pac West brand names. This needs to be sorted, as this is simply an online advert as it stands. Google should delist this site until the perpetrators of this deception are stopped. This will only happen when someone takes some action - the article in the San Fransisco press, identifying this online campaign to promote inhalant abuse, was only a start. This needs to be now fully exposed. Dalmation55 13:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Rush and Locker Room are brand names. They are always planted at the same time as the link to allaboutpoppers.com. This has been happening for a long while; law enforcement calls it "pattern behaviour". Dalmation55 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not controversy. It is a fact that there is a campaign promoting inhalant abuse in online communities. Significantly they also carry a safety message about "purity" ...and a well known brand! Can you guess which one? The article has been cited many times and then disappears. This is typical of the many faces (puppets) and other underhand techniques of the pushers. The fact that they hang around chat rooms and boards, is the equivalent of a pot pusher outside a school gate. History repeating itself, perhaps? There are even cartoons, for God's sake, pushing poppers! Disgusting. Dalmation55 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Sure. Dalmation55 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks me_and for the reference edit. Two corrections: 1. The correct PMID is 16288974 for Tran, DC. et al. "Effects of repeated in vivo inhalant nitrite exposure on gene expression in mouse liver and lungs." Nitric Oxide 14(2006) 279-289. "These studies demonstrate that in vivo exposure to inhalant nitrites results in changes in the angiogenesis cascade." "We examined the effects of multiple repeated in vivo nitrite exposure on the hepatic and pulmonary expression of a selected panel of genes related to angiogenesis and cancer, using gene microarrays." Research on KS and the mechanisms of tumor growth continue to be explored.
2. The correct PMID is 16414306 and the correct author spelling is Mbulaiteye SM, et al. "Risk factors for human herpesvirus 8 seropositivity in the AIDS Cancer Cohort Study. In analyses adjusted for smoking and drinking, HHV-8 seropositivity was positively associated with nitrate inhalant use (OR=1.7;95% CI 1.3-2.3) among men who have sex with men. Research on KS and HHV-8(also known as KSHV) and the factors that effect them continues.
References to KS need to include some kind of statement and reference that researchers continue to explore KS risk factors. Having the KS virus(HHV-8 or KSHV) does not usually result in KS. Other publications finding popper use related to HHV-8:
Casper, Corey et al. "HIV serodiscordant sex partners and the prevalence of HHV-8 infection among HIV negative men who have sex with men: baseline data from the EXPLORE study." Sexually Transmitted Infections 2006: Vol 82 Issue 3: 229-235.
Casper, Corey et al. "Correlates of prevalent and incident KS-associated herpesvirus infection in men who have sex with men." Journal of Infectious Diseases 2002 April 1;185(7):990-993. PMID 11920325.
Pauk, et al. : Mucosal shedding of human herpesvirus 8 in men." New England Journal of Medicine; 2000 Nov 9; 343(19):1369-77. PMID 11070101.
Hankwilson 16:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 16:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Dalmation55: you seem to be the only person on here who is so consistently angry about Pac West and Rush. Whenever someone posts anything that mentions these names, you go ballistic.
For example, you went off on "Me_and" when he posted Rush and Locker Room as generic names for poppers. If you go to the U. S. Government's sites, and if you read the many news articles that have been published over the decades about these products it's clear that Rush and Locker Room are almost always used synonymously with poppers. Are those people "planting" the names, too?
You've also yelled at him for including http://www.allaboutpoppers.com/. Yet that site is full of links to all kinds of credible information and background. It's not a site trying to sell poppers to anyone.
You've thrown tantrums and threatened people. Screamed and yelled. That kind of behavior is consistent with a personal vendetta. Is there anything to the earlier post that claimed you were selling counterfeit Rush and got caught?
The only 'pattern' I can see in this article is your never-ending effort to smear anyone who tries to improve this article. "Me_and" is just the most recent example. Look back at the history of this article. Your fingerprints, under different screen names, are on nearly all the anti-Pac West and anti-Rush tantrums in this article.
You should take a break and lighten up on 'me_and' and let people improve this article. Diamonddriller29 00:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Pac West are the guys that are responsible for the online campaign promoting inhalant abuse. They use kids cartoons, message boards, and a whole host of tactics to try to sell the message that poppers are a harmless aphrodisiac with a long history. That's my problem. They are a menace to public health, and are trying to introduce poppers to a new generation of victims.
Pac West are behind allaboutpoppers.com. That is a fact. If you look back over the history of this page - are you new here? - then you will realise that Diderot was the first to identify what the boys from Indiana were up to.
It's weird that you can't understand that someone would be concerned about pushers selling dangerous chemicals? You don't get that, then? Dalmation55 09:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
It only makes sense to you as there is nothing else in your life apart from pushing chemicals and picking fights. You are notorious for it apparently. An ex employee of Pac West has already spoken online about the machinations and rivalry in your organisation. This is the source of most of what we know about the major league popper pusher in the USA.
I suspect (given your known propensity for planting links to that Virusmyth site) that you are just another of a long history of puppets on this page. Strange how many faces pop by with the same message! Who would have thought so many "different" people actually gave a damn. Clearly poppers is something that a whole bunch of people care passionately about.
Anyway, you say: " So, where's the harm? Where's the public health menace you claim exists?" So, why not stop selling them as "room dedoouriser"? Stop fiddling with the chemistry to outwit law enforcement? Why were poppers outlawed in the first place? A Republican conspiracy against the gay community! That was one of your weaker arguments!
What about poppers and viagra? You are planting messages all over the net about poppers being a safe aphrodisiac. You are luring young gay men into chemical abuse. Can't you see what you are doing? Look in a mirror. How you sleep at night is beyond me. Put up another monument, sponsor another book, hug another celebrity. Nothing changes the fact of what you are. Dalmation55 10:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
According to research released in the Lancet 24 March 2007, both alcohol and smoking are more dangerous than many illicit drugs including marijuana and poppers. Alcohol and tobacco were in the top 10 while weed was 11th and poppers were 19th out of 20.
The researchers were from two different groups and considered experts in their fields. These included law enforcement, chemists, pharmacologists and addiction specialists in the Royal Society of Psychiatrists.
In the UK a system that has evolved over nearly a century regulates illicit drugs according to a classification system that aims to relate to the actual harms and risks of each drug that's been used by a small group of experts, and which has been described as a "rational scale for assessing the harm of drugs of misuse".
Using a rational scale for assessing the genuine degree of harm from misusing poppers might be a better way to evaluate them, as opposed to relying on conflicting studies related to AIDS which after twenty five years have not proven poppers to be either significantly dangerous or totally harmless. The bottom line seems to be that they are neither, and that they are basically at the bottom of any list of potentially harmful compounds. NancyDowden 02:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the Lancet reference. At least poppers made the list of drugs. I would characterize the ratings as a survey of researchers...as opposed to "research". And some questions about the "experts" and their "expertise". I dont take it for granted that the surveyed experts have expertise about poppers. If they had no or limited info about poppers then the 19th ranking is not surprising.
Too often in the past poppers have not been listed as a "drug". In 1999, Gay Men's Health Crisis in New York, a pioneering AIDS community based organization, surveyed 7000+ men who have sex with men and one question asked was "what drugs do you use with sex?" Poppers was not listed as a possible choice. This omission of poppers as a gay sex drug was repeated in a pamphlet "Sex and Drugs" produced in California targeted to gay men. The cover listed the various recreational drugs used by gay men( and others). Poppers was missing. And the pamphlet was produced by gay men.
As for the Lancet report, some questions about the UK "expert" raters: 1.Expertise on poppers? 2. Expertise on HIV/AIDS and substance use as a cofactor for HIV transmission and seroconversion? 3.Expertise on sexual and drug using behaviors of men who have sex with men? 4.Awareness of the published research on poppers/nitrite inhalants? 5. Attitudes towards men who have sex with men? how are gay men valued by these experts?
Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, even some of the HIV researchers and service providers(prevention workers and doctors) are unaware of the published research about poppers.There is an information overload problem in the HIV field. And specialization has resulted in narrowing of focus and lack of exposure to some info areas.
When men who have sex with men are asked what drugs they use, some do not list poppers.However,if they are subsequently asked if they use poppers, they acknowledge using poppers.They did not consider poppers a drug. Researchers adjusted to this "poppers aren't drugs" phenomenon by probing responders with the follow up question to get realistic data about popper use. I learned this as a member of the UCSF Community Advisory Board. Hankwilson 18:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 18:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Wilson, can you be more specific about the variety of reasons why you say HIV researchers and service providers are unaware of research on poppers?
It strikes me as odd that prominent researchers and local HIV/AIDS service providers would not know that poppers are so profoundly dangerous and related to HIV/AIDS. Doug Stephen 14:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree. Why is it that Wilson dismisses current research showing poppers to be innocuous at worst and not related to unprotected sex among gay men, in favor of old and outdated studies that have been show to be seriously flawed and invalid?
Wilson posted that the Lancet study published this weekend, which put poppers at the bottom of a list of potentially harmful items topped by alcohol and smoking, is inferior and invalid because the experts who conducted the research were, according to Wilson, unaware of published research about poppers which he claims proves them harmful. The Lancet research was not about HIV/AIDS and the experts who did the research were looking at poppers from a different perspective, one around other public health issues -- not HIV/AIDS.
But when it comes to HIV/AIDS, according to current research, 51% of HIV-positive men in a large Australian study used poppers and they found that there was no link between use of poppers and unprotected sex.
In a reference to Wilson's old studies, the Australians made a point of saying that earlier studies looking at the relationship between recreational drug use and sexual risk taking have produced conflicting results. And, more importantly when considering Wilson's outdated studies -- they also said that although some studies, often conducted in the US, have found a link between the use of specific illicit drugs and unprotected anal sex, these findings have not been supported by other studies.
This is reported in AIDS Map, a well known HIV/AIDS outfit, referred to by most if not all HIV/AIDS doctors, researchers and most AIDS Service Providers. It just strikes me as unlikely that Wilson's claim that the HIV community is not aware of the data on poppers is a valid claim. Instead, I would agree that it's more likely that the HIV/AIDS community does not consider poppers to be a significant issue, because they actually are aware of the current research and also aware that the studies Wilson keeps using to make his point, are almost all outdated or were long ago shown to be seriously flawed and invalid. It looks more like they've essentially dismissed him and his apparently outdated theories.
This might help to explain the zealotry for continuing to beat a dead horse. NancyDowden 16:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Doug Stephen: Some possibilities of why HIV experts may ignore poppers....some starting the ignoring phenomenon way back in 1983., others at various times over the next 2 decades...but poppers still turn up in research as significant risk factors for unsafe sex, seroconversion, and some relationship to KS...still to be defined. 1.Some experience an information overload in the HIV field. 2.Much of the research on poppers being immunosuppressive has been published in specialty journals as opposed to the hiv journals. 3.Some dismissed poppers having a role in hiv infection when AIDS was discovered.Initially, poppers were suspected of causing AIDS or KS 4.Others discounted poppers when the 1983 CDC mice study found poppers to not be immunosuppressive. Subsequent mice studies all found immunosuppression. The dosage levels of the mice studies are an issue of contention. But it should be noted that even in the 1983 CDC study there was a reference that there was thymic atrophy in some of the mice exposed to the higher doses...the thymus is important in the immune system generating t cells. This was one clue that poppers could be immunosuppressive at higher doses. 5. Some dismissed the role of poppers in KS when the KSHV or HHV-8 was discovered. It needs to be considered that positivity for HHV-8 is not sufficient by itself to manifest KS. Most people with HHV-8 infection do not progress to KS. 6. There has been and continues to be a pro poppers promotion campaign...similarities to the cigarette industry lying to consumers for decades....and initially getting away with it. 7.Duesberg's focus on poppers and his denialist position has also given momentum to HIV experts shying away from consideration of poppers. 8. The variability in research instruments, questions(frequency, quantity, vs simple ever used, never used contributed to conflicting results....and in some cases the lack of questions. 9. Straight researchers who have never used poppers not understanding their effects.Not factoring in the compound risk that poppers present. Its immunosuppression PLUS disinhibition...both a behavior effect as well as physiological increased susceptibility.10. I have gotten positive feedback from HIV doctors, and researchers who indicated that they were not aware of the published studies. also HIV+/PWAs and hiv- gay men have expressed both interest and gratitude. I expose blown up bibliographies in booths at street fairs in San Francisco. People give me feedback with folks all over the map on the issue/and knowledge of poppers. My goal and behavior has been to publicize the research.I prefer that the research speaks for itself.
Hankwilson 00:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson
Hankwilson
00:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Canadian researchers call for rapid needs assessments of MSM's awareness of HIV-related risks associated with use of poppers. They report a "disturbingling high prevalence of popper use of young MSM during a period of rapidly increasing HIV incidence in British Columbia. Our results, together with those from previous studies, suggest nitrite inhalant use by MSM is associated with a synergy among risks for HIV seroconversion. Use of poppers is associated with an increased likelihood of engaging in anal intercourse with an infected partner and in addition, a higher probability of infection following each such exposure." They conclude:"Efforts to reduce the use of nitrite inhalants during sexual encounters should be considered a high-priority HIV prevention strategy for MSM." from BMC Public Health 2007,7:35. article URL: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/7/35. PMID 17362516. Hankwilson 23:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 23:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Please, don't keep inserting a blog into the external links. Blogs are generally considered inappropriate per Wikipedia's guideline on external links. If you think this is a unique situation where we should disregard the guideline, please explain why here instead of reinserting it. MastCell Talk 18:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This recent 2007 study from a leading AIDS research publication should be reinstated in the reference section and included as citation evidence for the controversial contention that popper use increases the risk for HIV infection. PMID 17325605 clearly indicates this. That the specific word "nitrite" is not included is immaterial because "popper" is both in the title and in the summary several times.The removal of this study raises doubts about the neutrality of the editor who removed it. Hankwilson 17:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 17:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I would agree that the study Hank Wilson mentions above should be referenced. However, it's clear that unprotected receptive anal intercourse and multiple partners seems to be the most significant variables, not poppers.
But more importantly, where is the NPV in this article? It seems that studies which counter the ones Hank Wilson posts here are being removed. For example, the large study that was just published by Prestage G, out of Australia, which found no link between poppers and unsafe sex, has been deleted again.
I'd suggest to Hank Wilson that such deletions similarly raise doubts about the neutrality of the editors who removed these references. In other words, when Hank Wilson or his associates remove references to articles that they do not agree with, it raises serious questions about the neutrality of their posts here. 38.136.6.221 23:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Published articles about poppers, or related to popper use, from scientific journals should be included. Hankwilson 03:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 03:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's an idea... instead of edit-warring over the external links (of which few, if any, meet Wikipedia's guidelines for inclusion), how about spending that time improving the article itself, which is in pretty woeful shape? Our goal here is really supposed to be improving the encyclopedia article, not making sure our pet external link gets included. MastCell Talk 16:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
If the edit wars and personal attacks can come to an end, this article can be improved. Most people just want credible information so they can make up their own mind about the subject. They are not interested in personal vendettas or passionate arguments.
At the end of the day, it seems these nitrites are neither the killer some claim, nor totally harmless as others claim.
With continual use tolerance seems to occur after about two or three weeks, but a similar period of abstinence seems to restore sensitivity. There is no evidence of physical or psychological dependence or any longer term damage from sniffing nitrites.
Probably the biggest controversy surrounding nitrites has been the claim that they are implicated in the onset of Kaposi's sarcoma (KS) in HIV positive gay men. This was first identified in the early 1980's when it was revealed that all the original AIDS cases who manifested KS had also been users of nitrites. Poppers were implicated in two ways; firstly because some of the metabolised by-products of nitrites have been shown to be carcinogenic in the lab and secondly because nitrites were capable of somewhat depressing the immune systems of those using them when compared to non-users. Subsequent research has disproved the KS-nitrite theory.
The numerous references to studies that are posted here in an attempt to prove poppers are inherently dangerous serve mainly to emphasize that there is a perennial problem of extrapolating the results of laboratory studies on animals to humans who apart from being different physiologically, do not use drugs in the way they are given to animals in laboratory settings. There's also the problem that many of the references posted here have been to studies which appear to have had significant protocol problems, and may not even be valid.
Even so, this does leave open the question of the effect of nitrites on the immune system. Although there are studies showing that nitrites act upon the human immune system, the question of whether this immunosuppression is sufficient to cite nitrites as a genuine co-factor in AIDS remains unresolved. Doug Stephen 20:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
"so they can make up their own mind about the subject"
Does Wikipedia Foundation also allow promotion of other illegal drugs? The authorities have already banned the product at State and Fed level. There are NO countries in the world where poppers are legal Dalmation55 10:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
You are wrong. Inhalants (poppers) are ILLEGAL. They exist in some common law jurisdictions which have currently not oulawed their sale. Denmark banned them in a matter of days, following a case of blindness attributed to poppers use. No European country allows the sale of poppers. Japan has recently outlawed them.
If you wish to allow your pages (I note you say "we) to be used to promote the use of inhalants - say so. Does Wikipedia Foundation also allow the Cali Cartel to present the "positive side" of cocaine? Governments across the world have rightly outlawed inhalant abuse - the poppers industry, and now Wikipedia seem intent on promoting an alternative perspective for room deodouriser products. What about glue sniffing? Does the glue industry claim that glue sniffing has a positive side? Of course not! If they did so there would be lawsuits galore. How do the poppers pushers get away with it then? With Wikipedia's help.
The poppers industry have in fact long conspired to outwit enforcement by re labeling this illegal inhalant. If you wish to allow the industry to spin out their "allaboutpoppers" / Pac West propoganda then feel free - it is a disgraceful abuse of the noble aims of the founder.
Dalmation55 10:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the References section is overly large and rather gangly. A lot of it is nothing more than listcruft at this point considering many of the items listed are not citations for the main body of the article. Keep in mind Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I think the list is unlimited and/or unmaintainable (are we to list every report or article we come across?). Also, the list is unencyclopaedic, i.e. it would not be expected to be included in an encyclopaedia. -- John T. Folden 22:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
This is why the responsible people at Wikipedia should be aware of what is going on at this page:
CUMBRIAN schoolkids have been snorting the sex drug poppers in the playground.
One youngster claimed he went into a shop and bought a bottle of amyl nitrate while still wearing his uniform, according to police.
Experts warn the recreational drug could potentially kill.
It is illegal to enter a sex shop under the age of 18 and although poppers are legal to possess, it can still be illegal to supply them.
In South Cumbria, licensing officer PC Glenn Myerscough and schools liaison officer PC Mike Brown, have visited shops and warned them about selling poppers to youngsters.
They have also enlisted the expertise of Paul Brown, director of Cumbria Alcohol and Drug Alcohol Service.
Mr Brown said: “Because young people can get intoxicated very quickly they can easily get themselves in situations that are very dangerous.
"Because young people usually find secluded areas to use these drugs they may not be easy to find if left abandoned by their friends who do not want to get into trouble if something goes wrong."
Barrow drug squad boss, Detective Sergeant Mike Unwin, said: "Poppers are not currently controlled by the Misuse of Drugs Act. However, they can have unpleasant side effects such as causing headaches, dizziness and nausea.
"They can cause rashes and eye problems and they are poisonous if swallowed. Although poppers are sold in sex shops, they can actually cause problems with getting an erection."
A spokesman for the adult only Private Shop, Dalkeith Street, Barrow, said: “We have a strict over-21 policy not even 18. The problem is we do check their age and if they don’t have identification then we won’t serve them. We also now write down the details of anyone who looks under age who comes in.
"The problem we have is it’s often the adults that buy it and it’s passed down."
No one was available for comment from Barrow’s other adult shop, Simply Pleasure.Com, which is on the same street.
View this story and the latest newspaper in full digital reproduction, just like the printed copy at www.whitehaven-news.co.uk/digitalcopy Dalmation55 10:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
No. It is very common apparently:
Today, poppers abuse is widespread among British youngsters -- and some take the first sniff at an early age indeed. In Bedfordshire, for example, police recently reported that teachers found school children inhaling "Rush" during a class break. In Dewsbury meanwhile, police acting on a tip off by a local child discovered a hideaway where youngsters grouped up to inhale gas and poppers. Sgt Darren Brown later said the hideaway, known as a "gas pit", was just one of several dotted around the town centre, an area which has become known as the place to come and buy poppers. Dalmation55 10:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Poppers are a chemical inhalant - they are not an aphrodisiac. The euphoric effects from inhaling these fumes is similar to other forms of abuse. One poppers manufacturer even uses cartoons to sell their chemicals! They are aiming the product at the youth market - it is no surprise that they are appearing on the playground. Dalmation55 10:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Published research in scientific journals should not be dismissed. The statement that "any damage to the immune system is undone in a few days" is misleading in the context of the published research finding that popper use increases risk for HIV infection. Published research finds that popper use increases risk for HIV infection. While the immune system may rebound and recover after a few days, HIV infection remains....certainly a challenge not to be dismissed...at least with the current anti viral drugs that manage HIV infection, but do not cure it.
Whether poppers are immunosuppressive continues to be controversial and is an important issue in the context of the AIDS epidemic. This controversy goes back to the beginning of the AIDS epidemic and pro and con perspectives articulated, with references cited so that readers can come to their own conclusion. Hankwilson 19:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 19:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
PMID 1346559 : Seage GR et al. : The relationship between nitrite inhalants, unprotected receptive anal intercourse, and the risk of human immunodeficiency virus infection. Am J Epidemiology 1992, 135:1-11.
PMID 16505748 : Brewer DD et al. : Unsafe sexual behaviour and correlates of risk in a probability sample of men who have sex with men in the era of highly active antiretroviral therapy. Sex Transm Dis 2006, 33(4):250-5.
PMID 6562964 : Ostrow DG et al. : A case-control study of human immunodeficiency virus type 1 seroconversion and risk-related behaviours in the Chicago MACS/CCS Cohort, 1985-1992. Am J Epidemiology 1995, 142:875-883.
PMID 9584015 : Chesney MA et al. : Histories of substance use and risk behavior: precursors to HIV seroconversion in homosexual men. Am J Public Health 1998, 88(1):113-6.
PMID 15851918 : Buchbinder S et al. : Sexual risk, nitrite inhalant use, and lack of circumcision associated with HIV seroconversion in men who have sex with men in the United States. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr 2005, 39(1):82-9.
PMID 15738319 : Colfax G et al. : Longitudinal patterns of methamphetamine, popper(amyl nitrite), and cocaine use and high-risk sexual behavior among a cohort of San Francisco men who have sex with men. J Urban Health. 2005,82(Suppl 1):i62-70.
PMID 17362516 : Lampinen TM et al.: Nitrite inhalant use among young gay and bisexual men in Vancouver during a period of increasing HIV incidence. BMC Public Health 2007,7:35 article URL http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/7/35.
PMID 17002993 : Drumright LN et al.: Club drugs as causal risk factors for HIV acquisition among men who have sex with men: A review. Substance Use and Misuse 2006, 41:1551-1601.
PMID 16255638 : Choi KH et al.: Substance use, substance choice, and unprotected anal intercourse among young Asian American and Pacific Islander men who have sex with men. AIDS Educ Prev. 2005, 5:418-29.
PMID 15838193 : Purcell DW et al.: Illicit substance use, sexual risk, and HIV-positive gay and bisexual men:differences by serostatus of casual partners. AIDS 2005, Suppl 1:S37-47.
Each of these published research articles should be included in the reference section corroborating the concern that popper use is a significant risk factor for unsafe sex and HIV seroconversion.
more to come. Hankwilson 19:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 19:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the references section is a mess, and would favor removing all of the "general reading" and leaving only the references that are actually cited in the article. If there is material in the removed references that would improve the article, let's work it in using article text with a citation - that's much more useful than a laundry list of related reading. As far as NPOV, that will require discussing each controversial section here and coming to a consensus everyone can live with. I've found the most useful approach is to focus on very specific content issues (i.e. ideally someone proposes wording and others suggest adjustments to it). MastCell Talk 23:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if by removing all the 'general reading' from the References section it may set off another edit war between the two camps, each whom seem dead-set on making sure their point of view is represented.
Perhaps, in fairness and NPOV, a new section called "External Links" or "External Reading" could be used to provide a home for the material that is being removed form the "References" section. Munatobe7 01:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The recent elimination of any reference to poppers being a risk factor in HIV infection is a blatant example of vandalism. Dozens of published research articles, with PMID numbers included, were eliminated from the reference section. Attempts to link the references to the article have been repeatedly sabotaged by tag team tactics, apparently from those who cannot let the controversy even be referenced, let alone published research findings from major AIDS journals. Unfortunate for those who would be interested in the popper/HIV connection and/or controversy. The controversy does exist. It should be referenced. The poppers industry does exist. It's viewpoint should be included but not result in the elimination of information supported by dozens of published research articles. Hankwilson 02:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 02:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
In being
bold and making some changes to the 'Health Issues' section I'm hoping to avoid abuse by following the guidelines in the "This Topic contains controversial issues" notice at the top of the Discussion page.
I've thoroughly read the discussion-page dialogue and have cited reputable sources supporting the information contained in the edit. Also I'm trying to "carefully describe the reasons" for the edit.
Setting aside the passionate arguments and sometimes heated rhetoric in the discussion-page, the body of data points to a general consensus that inhaling nitrites is not significantly harmful nor is it wide spread through society. [15] </ref [16] [17] [18] [19]
The concern about poppers and a possible relationship to AIDS creates the most rhetoric in this article and underlies passionate exchanges throughout the discussion-page. I hope any debates over the general consensus of thought about poppers can be on a high note and not degenerate to the silliness and personal attacks seen in the past. Munatobe7 20:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Sure, I think we should focus on reliable secondary sources like those you mention. In the U.S., there's the National Institute on Drug Abuse, for one (see [20] (slightly out of date), [21], etc). Virusmythpoppersmyth, allaboutpoppers, etc are not encyclopedic sources. MastCell Talk 22:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
{{cite web | Name of the template url=http://www.virusmythpoppersmyth.org/cpsc_report_1983/ | URL of the source title=Briefing Package on Petition HP82-1 | Title of the source accessdate=2007-05-12 | Date the source was last checked last=McNamara | Author name, you can also first=A. Moira | use Author= instead of Last= & First= year=1983 | Date of writing/publication month=July | If the full date is available, use date=[[yyyy-mm-dd]] format=Reprint | This could be, for example, PDF, or similar publisher=[[Consumer Product Safety Commission|U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission]] I've wikilinked the publisher so that people can find out more about the source }}
A credible current secondary source which does cite a concern about popper use increasing the risk of HIV transmission is the FDA. See 2006 FDA letter, this articles reference #3,:including this statement:" FDA recognizes that the abuse of amyl nitrite inhalant and other poppers is a serious health issue, particularly for the segment of homosexual male population that continues to use them. There are reports in the literature that associate the use of nitrite inhalants with immunosuppression, increased risk of HIV transmission, and Kaposi's sarcoma."
The current health risks section fails to reference the accumulating published research which finds popper use a significant risk factor increasing HIV transmission and risky sexual behavior. See previous citations with PMID numbers for easy reference.
Again, this is a major health issue for gays and men who have sex with men, the major consumers of poppers.
Again, there should be a statement that there is a controversy and the divergent positions should be stated for the reader to consider. I will be adding these changes but am noticing for constructive feedback in advance Hankwilson 21:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 21:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a popper industry and it has a message. There are researchers and they have a message. I support inclusion of both positions with attribution to facilitate analysis. 71.138.80.137 04:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson 71.138.80.137 04:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Hank Wilson:
1) Are you currently or have you ever been a petitioner to the FDA or any other government agency on the subject of poppers or nitrites?
2) Have you ever collaborated with any petitioner to any government agency on poppers or nitrites?
3) Are you an author of any books or publications on poppers or nitrites in addition to 'Death Rush'?
4) Are you currently or have you ever collaborated with any researchers on the subject of poppers or nitrites?
5) Have you ever or are you currently collaborating in any way with any popper sellers or manufacturers?
The current wording says "it has been suggested". This should be changed to "Research has demonstrated that poppers are immunosuppressive." It is suggested that the demonstrated immunosuppression is significant increasing susceptibility to HIV infection. Issues of quantity of popper use and frequency of popper use may be considerations effecting the susceptibility to HIV infection.Research is ongoing to understand the significance of the immunosuppression.
To refer to the immunosuppression research is to state reality. The research exists. To judge it,critique its limitations, characterise it, raises points of view issues but these can be included in the context of acknowledging that there is controversy on interpretation of the research.Failure to acknowledge the research is not neutral or objective. Hankwilson 20:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 20:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
www.allaboutpoppers.com is a poppers industry website. Google fails to list that website in a google search re: "poppers" for this reason. It does not pass the neutral point of view test and it should not be listed as a credible reference.Can more credible references replace existing references? Hankwilson 20:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 20:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
One correction: according to Wikipedia:Reliable sources, secondary sources are actually preferred, if (and this is the big "if") they are reliable secondary sources according to the criteria set forth there. In other words, FDA, CDC, Merck manual, etc are reliable secondary sources. Allaboutpoppers.com and virusmythpoppers.com are not. Primary sources are also useful, and we should include a number of them, but the problem is that when there's conflicting data (as there is here), we need to avoid synthesizing it ourselves (see WP:SYN) and saying "These studies clearly indicate that poppers are (or are not) immunosuppressive." Relying solely on primary sources also leaves us open to selective citation, since there are conflicting studies out there. Instead, we should rely on syntheses published by reliable secondary sources. Does that make sense? MastCell Talk 15:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
This talk page has not been structured according to guidelines, so I am adding these comments at the top of the page.
I have copyedited the article, consolidating multiple iterations of identical information and arranging paragraphs more coherently. I have also changed POV and MPOV to WP:NPOV to the maximum degree presently practicable. I have removed the "analyses" of referent studies, for they are a direct and serious violation of WP:NOR. There is apparently enough emotional investment on this issue that maintaining a factual, NPOV tone as required in Wikipedia is proving challenging, so I have also tagged this article for extra NPOV scrutiny and assistance. It is particularly problematic that many of the references are taken from a single pro-poppers website with an anonymous owner. -- Scheinwerfermann 23:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is based on text that was originally at amyl nitrite, and the public domain document http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs/708/ (a work of the U.S. Federal Government with no copyright notice can be assumed to be in the public domain).
Update: The DOJ ain't too hot at maintaining their site, but the source text is now at http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs07/708/.
Given the source of most of this text, there's probably a lot more NPOV problems than just using the word "abuse" to refer to any recreational use. An obvious example is that we detail all of the possible health problems but go into no detail about the beneficial effects (the kind of euphoria produced, how it helps with sex, etc). Unfortunately, I can't provide that, since I'd never use such a drug as this! -- Toby Bartels 12:27 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
In which countries, if any, is the recreational use of poppers legal? AxelBoldt 21:29 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Beats me. -- Toby Bartels 21:25 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Use is legal in the USA. Sale or importation is illegal, not under the controlled substances law ( 21 U.S.C. §§ 801-971) but under the consumer product safety law (15 U.S.C. §§ 2057a- 2057b). Apparently, alkyl nitrites have commercial or industrial uses, such that listing them as a controlled substance would create problems for some industries. Don't know about other countries. -- Cjmnyc 05:46 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I removed the following
This part of the government document seems to talk about general inhalants rather than poppers. AxelBoldt 21:42 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Oops, I put it back in; I guess I was misguided by the part Nitrites, however, have caused no known deaths and appear to be safer than most other inhalants. which is not part of the government document but was added by 63.214.217.46. AxelBoldt 21:45 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Deleted "a carry-over from the 1960s, an era where drug use and experimentation were common", on NPOV grounds. I suspect this article may have other NPOV problems as well. -- Cjmnyc 05:31 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The reference section of the poppers article lists published articles in scientific journals,most peer reviewed, and the PMID number is listed for ready reference. The articles speak for themselves with most being cautionary and focusing on hazards of poppers use. The intent of such a listing is to make consumers aware of these scientific publications, limitations often acknowledged. There is no claim that the list is definitive. Other published articles can be added, including any that include positive benefits of using poppers. Hankwilson 23:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 23:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Two big problems. One, the opening line of the article says that poppers are used by the avant-garde heterosexual community. Is this at least anecdotally supported? I'm straight and fairly progressive and I've *never* seen a popper or heard them talked about by anyone but gays. Two, the entire "controversy" section consists of the popper /AIDS industry defending itself successfully from controversy. So how is that a "controversy" section? The controversy section is for dissenting view, that poppers are a huge health risk, but you haven't let the dissenters make their case. -broodlinger 24.184.67.122 00:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This seems a good idea to me.
But, there was a guy here a few months ago, a doctor or a scientist (I can't remember which), who suggested keeping them separate. I think his concern was that he wanted to the chemical article to steer clear of the chaos that had been going on in the 'poppers' article.
Now that the clamour has calmed down, maybe the articles could be linked.
I tried to find his postings in the discussion page, but for some reason the page has been removed or at least all the history has dissapeared.
216.54.197.236 22:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Dalmation55, others may comment on your other edits/removals, but I've added back the inclusion of the link to All About Poppers which you deleted. It seems an appropriate one. It is not spam. It provides genuine and important background information. Lt. Dan 23:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Allaboutpoppers is a manufacturer sponsored website and this calls into question the integrity of the information. This website has been cited in the press did you read:
http://ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=873?
Whether you take Hank Wilsons line or not, I do not, the evidence is quite clear. This is a commercial website, masquerading an an authority, with a hidden agenda. From past reading I also understand that this site has been spamming wikipedia for many years.
The All About Poppers site has often been linked from popper selling sites.Interestingly, the content of All About Poppers has changed in the last year. The current focus of that site is to dismiss hazards of poppers use and to debunk the published research to date. Many of those articles predate published research, or ignore it. That site includes opinion pieces dismissing the hazards demonstrated by published research. The opinion pieces are not neutral. There inclusion in "External Links" could be helpful to illustrate the diverse views about poppers and the history of the debate as the research evolves. Also, the reference section until recently was arranged with the most recent articles published first so that there can be a historical review of the research.
These articles should be removed from the reference section because they are not scientific research. If allowed to remain in the reference section, then they should be rearranged according to chronilogical order. Some of the opinion articles in All About Poppers carry no publication dates, Paul Varnell's article for example, making it difficult to put in a historical framework.
Ad hominem attacks fail to deal with the results and conclusions of the published research.
Recently, Google and Yahoo have both stopped carrying sponsored popper selling sites under search: "poppers". Hankwilson 06:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 06:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Honeypot, is the allaboutpoppers website sponsored and connected with Pac West / Great Lakes Products of Indiana or not? Please can someone clarify this issue? This has nothing to do with Hank Wilson or his campaign, it is a matter of a the integrity of the information. The commercial entities mentioned produce "aroma products" and sell them as such, do they not? If it might be established that they also promote the misuse of the product then that would be a grave matter indeed. I would welcome insight on the connection between Pac West / Great Lakes, Joseph F. Miller, and the allaboutpoppers webiste. Perhaps there is none? Let us clear this matter up shall we? If the allaboutpoppers is connected to Pac West we should be told and vice versa. Thanks. Dalmation55
It seems I may have answered my own question. Hidden in the code on Pac West Distributing Inc's corporate website is this little trick (see below). The links are HIDDEN and can only be seen using special software. Why would Pac West link to allaboutpoppers.com and www.virusmythpoppersmyth.org in such a secretive way? Why not be open about it? This whiffs of something fishy, what do others think?
www.pwdbrands.com/never_fake_it.php hides the following CODING from the naked eye:
Pac West Inc's interest in promoting these websites requires an explanation I think.
Okay. The two guys who are opposed to poppers say that All About Poppers shouldn't any longer be included in "External Links" because:
1) "Recently, Google and Yahoo have both stopped carrying sponsored popper selling sites under search: "poppers".
2) The All About Poppers site "has often been linked from popper selling sites.", and is linked from a poppers manufacturer's site.
3) "The content of All About Poppers has changed in the last year."
What's the point? Google or Yahoo may have stopped carrying sponsored "popper selling sites" under the search "poppers", but what's that got to do with All About Poppers? It doesn't sell poppers.
I'm not a computer person, but I think it's true that links to a site are out of the control of the site being linked to, and I don't think there is any way for a site to stop any other site from adding a link to them. So it's not All About Poppers' fault other sites link to them. But who cares anyway? Where's the harm?
And also, most websites change over time and site redesign is common practice. That doesn't make them unworthy or discredit what they have to say.
The All About Poppers site is full of lots of background information that's not in the article. If you take the time to read it, like I have (and it takes some time, there's a lot there, and some of it is heavy reading), whether you agree with it or not, you'll see it's valuable information. It should be included and has been added back to the "External Links" section. HoneyBot29 22:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dalmation, have you read any of the All About Poppers site? If so, what parts of it lack integrity?
I've read a lot of it, and, yes, I realize it's not an anti-popper site. But to me it seems a treasure-trove of background and analysis.
If you haven't read it, then you really don't have a valid reason to be criticizing it, because you don't know what you're talking about.
It's like the abortion argument, or the argument over Islam vs Christianity, or even about gay marriage where fringes of the disagreeing parties can't even agree on fundamental issues of fairness. You should read All About Poppers before you criticize it. Condom Man 00:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Honeybot, I agree with much of what you had to say, but I don't agree with you that just because someone removes a link, that they are automatically a vandal. It really depends on the context in which the link is removed. Just sayin.
Condom Man
01:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Reference Analysis Inaccuracies: The reference section "analysis" of the Dax , 1991 human study of poppers claims that the 30% reduction in natural killer cell activity was only found in the long term study, but the Dax publication states:" in both the short and long term studies NK activity decreased approximately 30% during drug administration and returned to pre-drug levels after cessation of drug exposure." " Single inhalations at 3-4 day intervals result in sustained depression of natural killer cell activity." "The doses of nitrites administered to volunteers in this study are moderate compared with those reported by individuals abusing isobutyl nitrite."
The analyses of the published research articles needs analysis with errors removed; prehaps multiple analyses of each analysis.
The research on poppers is accumulating and this is the achilles heal of the poppers industry. There is no claim that the research to date is definitive. More research is needed...and the poppers industry should be paying for it.To date the poppers industry has circumvented consumer protection laws which mandate pre sale drug safety testing. There was a boast on one website that 25,000 bottles of RUSH were being sold DAILY! Consumer demand will decrease when the research is publicized to consumers.
Distortions of the research should not be allowed on Wikipedia. ( Hankwilson 06:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 06:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)).
Poppers are illegal worldwide: Why is that?
I am sure that you know that allaboutpoppers.com consists of ancient articles published, following poppers industry machinations, in gay periodicals at the time poppers were outlawed. The same periodicals carried adverts for these chemicals. What is Bruce Voeller's relationship with Pac West? Does anyone know? I see a photograph of this individual at the following website:
http://jfmillerfoundation.org/gallery.html
Joseph F Miller is the gentleman behind Pac West as I understand. This all looks most irregular. The authorities BAN a dangerous inhalant that lowers blood pressure, the industry conspires to circumvent this law, and further distributes information pertaining to the abuse of the product as inhalant.
This is a no brainer: a chemical which dramtically lowers a human beings blood pressure is DANGEROUS. I am not a PhD like Voeller, but anyone can understand this - the potential danger to sight through damage to the retina is obvious. Ask your optican! No fancy foundations or "research" required!
The authorities of most nations have outlawed this product. Why do you think that is? An anti gay conspiracy led by the Vatican? No, I think not, perhaps commonsense! Does anyone know where poppers are legal? Zimbabwe perhaps?
Commonsense is the enemy of these industry spin doctors who are engaged in what one publication called the "Poppers War". These individuals, their publicty, and their methods should be seen as part of a wider industry effort to negate the influence of enforcement on their business interests. This is about dollars and the exploitation of the consumer. Dalmation55
Mr Wilson: kindly do not alter or edit my study analyses. To add your own comments about any of the studies, please use Wikipedia formatting, and do so outside of my analyses of the study. That way it is clear who said what.
Thank you. New Orleans Jazz 23:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Mr Wilson: I read your comments earlier that you indicated that you'd originally posted your reference list of studies in chronological order, and you thought they should be kept that way. I agree, the studies you posted had been moved around and were out of chronological order. I spent a lot of time over the past few days reordering the list so that it's again in chronological order. But, tonight, when you edited my first analysis, you changed the date, along with altering the analysis itself.
I believe the analysis you wanted to challenge was a 1999 Solderberg study, but you instead completely altered a 2004 Soderberg study. You should have gone to the 1999 study to make your analysis. (But, don't forget, do not alter my analysis; instead add your own comments/analysis in proper Wikipedia formatting)
It can be confusing sometimes. I've had to really did into Wikipedia to understand how to format and such. New Orleans Jazz 00:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
New Orleans Jazz: Thanks for agreeing to chronilogical ordering of published references. Concerns: 1. The current Soderberg et al(2004) Increased tumor growth in mice exposed to inhaled isobutyl nitrite.Toxicology Letters, 152.35 was published in 1999,not 2004. I will correct the chronilogical placement.OK? Also, the author was solely Lee Soderberg. 2. Your analysis omits Soderberg's stated rationale for using the PYB6 tumor model: "However, the PYB6 tumor model was developed as a measure of immunotoxicity(Dean et al.,1982) and it is well established that KS is most virulent in immunosuppressed individuals(Ganem, 1997)."from page 39. 3. You failed to include the final ending sentence: "Thus, any role of inhalant-induced immunosuppression would be expected to occur prior to the onset of debilitating HIV-induced immunosuppression, perhaps allowing KS/HHV-8 or HIV to become established in its early stages."from page 40. This statement supports the nitrite inhalants causing immunosuppression resulting in increased susceptibility to infections(HHV-8,HIV,and others like HPV and anal cancer??). 4.The concern with immunosuppression increasing susceptibility to infections encompasses more than HHV-8 and HIV. Whether this study measured specifically the effect on KS is irrelevant, the study found that tumors, admittedly not KS, were increased in both quantity and growth rate. 5. Popper users vary in quantity of nitrites inhaled....ranging from a few sniffs to dozens. This makes dose extrapolation to human usage challenging. 6.Finally, I am on a learning curve on the wikipedia protocols. I will annotating the reference citations with a direct quote(s). 7.Most published research includes a discussion section with limitations stated. These limitations guide future efforts and acknowledge that findings are not definitive. Hankwilson 15:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 15:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
A thorough review of most of the studies cited and listed in the 'References' section of the 'poppers' article, reveals that these researchers lend little or no support for claims that 'poppers' pose a significant health hazard.
In summary, it is not logical to cite references that vaguely mention nitrite use as a risk factor for Kaposi’s sarcoma as evidence that there is a causal connection. Doing so appears to be an attempt to make the body of scientific publications supporting claims of hazard to be more substantial than it actually is.
The articles/studies that have been listed and cited as evidence for linking nitrite use and HIV and/or Kaposi’s sarcoma infection, do not support such claims. Moreover, many of them are not even valid studies.
The most serious problem is that behavioral studies cannot establish a causal relationship between nitrite use and HIV infection. Only associations between the two can be shown, and because two behaviors occur concurrently, it does not necessitate a relationship between them. A potential mechanism is that both substance use and sexual behavior may occur within the context of long-standing social networks.
The most logical explanation for the association between nitrite use and unsafe sex is that it results from an underlying personality characteristic that predisposes some men to risky behaviors, and that sexual risk-taking and substance use are just two such behaviors observed in men with risk-taking behavior. The risk for KS is highest among those who lead a particular kind of sexual lifestyle, characterized not only by nitrite use, but also by multiple, anonymous sexual partners.
The relationship of nitrite use (or any other drug) with unsafe sex reflects the use of these substances specifically for the purpose of sexual enhancement among those who are already having unsafe sex. Another possibility is that the substance is used as an excuse, not the real reason, for risky behavior. Furthermore, nitrites are readily available in places of higher risk behavior, such as pornographic theaters and bookstores.
To further complicate the issue, there are confounding factors, especially the fact that most of the men who abuse nitrites also use other substances. Therefore, it is impossible to elucidate the impact of each substance separately. It is of particular consequence if injected drugs are used in conjunction with nitrites. The sharing of needles is a well-established route of HIV infection.
A limitation of the behavioral studies is that a restricted number of potential risk factors for unsafe sex are studied, and many others (e.g., additional immune parameters, anxiety, nutritional status, specific types of social support) remain to be investigated. Some of these other parameters may be underlying causes of both risky behavior and drug abuse or induce a decrease in immune function, subsequently enabling HIV infection to occur more readily. It is likely that the immune status of those who use drugs may already be compromised as a result of an unhealthy lifestyle or other psychological factors.
There are several methodological weaknesses of the behavioral studies. The first is that drug exposure and sexual information are derived from self-reports, which is subject to recall bias. The validity of the research relies on the accuracy of the reporter and if they are using drugs or alcohol, they may not remember specific drug use, or have an altered perception of their actions.
Another experimental design flaw is that important controls are not performed. An example of this is that rectal bleeding during sex with nitrite use is not taken into account, and the bleeding could be the causative factor in HIV infection. In addition, since the detection of HIV seroconversion is not always accurate, infection may have occurred before the questionnaire began in the seroconversion studies. This could potentially alter the results of the study.
Furthermore, the populations in most of the studies are homogenous and do not represent the entire population of gay or bisexual men. Perhaps this is an explanation for the disparity in results in some of the research.
Although it is proposed that nitrite use can facilitate HIV infection and KS, one of the references listed three articles for and three against association of nitrite use with HIV seropositivity and KS. When conflicting data is presented, one cannot conclude that nitrite use is involved in these illnesses.
The "Health Hazards" section of the 'poppers' article has been slightly modified to reflect these facts. New Orleans Jazz 01:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The most common name for these products is "Poppers". Also common are the names "Rush", "Locker Room", "Brown Bottle", and in the UK "Liquid gold". Rocky Mountain Stream 00:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the section, and replaced it with a single external link to the site concerned. The section was longer than the article itself, and had several paragraphs of analysis, which didn't belong there. HawkerTyphoon 01:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
There have been several media reports of relatively young gay males dying after using poppers and viagra. Three deaths were reported in Los Angeles/West Hollywood shortly after Viagra became available. And there has been a death in Boston. Hankwilson 02:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson
The reference section needs reinstatement. The Oct 29 replacement by HawkerTyphoon linked to a pro poppers site which fails to list many scientific publications.
The analyses of the published studies should be limited to the discussion/talk section of Wikipedia.
I've reverted the poppers article to the last version before yesterday's mass deletion of the entire References section. The stated reason for deleting the References section was that it "had several paragraphs of analysis, which didn't belong there". The study analyses are revealing, and it seems reasonable for them to accompany the studies listed in the References section. Any decision to remove entire sections from an article should be discussed on the Talk page, and agreed upon under a consensus before the deletion occurs.
A long-standing statement about Viagra® and poppers was also deleted yesterday. The reason, as described in the Discussion section, was: "There have been several media reports of relatively young gay males dying after using poppers and Viagra®. Three deaths were reported in Los Angeles/West Hollywood shortly after Viagra® became available. And there has been a death in Boston". If these deaths occurred, it's important information that should be included the Health Hazards section, along with information about any subsequent deaths since that time. But, it's also important that the articles being used to support such a statement are cited, so as to avoid the potential of making inaccurate statements based on rumors or gossip. Until there is proper support for a statement that mixing poppers and Viagra® actually causes death -- rather than it "may cause death" -- then, one cannot say it has actually happened.
Yesterday's edits also included an inappropriate effort to insert various popper brand names into the Street Names section, and those have been removed now.
Wikipedia points out that, while edits made in a collaborative spirit involve considerably more time and thought then reflexive reverts, they are far more likely to ensure both mutually satisfactory and more objective articles. I hope we can keep the poppers article contributions and discussions on the high road, so that the article can be both objective and accurate. Mass deletions of entire sections in an article are not appropriate without first having a thorough discussion and then arriving at a genuine consensus about such deletions.
It's important to consider that over the past year, the poppers page has become more and more accurate, making it a more sophisticated article, worthy of Wikepedia inclusion. The goal should be that it becomes one of the most well-researched and factually-supported articles on Wikipedia. Lt. Dan 17:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to HawkerTyphoon, who requested an "automatic peer review" for the poppers article, the review was done today, and there are some good ideas for improving the poppers article in the review.
The automated peer review's most notable suggestion, is about the Lead. Per Wikipedia, they state that "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and describing its notable controversies, if there are any. It should be between one and four paragraphs long, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear and accessible style so that the reader is encouraged to read the rest of the article."
Anyone care to dig in and give it a try? Lt. Dan 05:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Would you be kind enough to discuss , on the poppers article Talk/Discussion page, any changes before you make them? This gives other interested parties an opportunity to comment.
In the edit summary, you gave as the reason for your deletion of the mention about RUSH being the most common brand: "removed reference to Rush - is it the most popular? we can't prove it, as people are hardly going to keep records of buying the stuff!"
The reason I noted that RUSH appears to be the most common of the bottled alkyl nitrites was because when you Google poppers, or rush poppers, etc, it becomes readily apparent that it's the brand that seems to be the one most talked about. There are numerous mentions on web sites where poppers are sold that RUSH is the most popular brand. Also, the Wall Street Journal printed the claim in it's front page story on poppers (In the piece, they claimed that both RUSH and Locker Room were the most common brands). And, it's common knowledge that "Rush" is one of only a few street names for poppers; it's actually synonymous with the word poppers. When a brand name becomes synonymous with the category of product, then it's one of the more common brands, if not the most popular. This would hold true for any category of product.
IMHO the Lead should give, as a point of reference to what these products are, at least one brand name so the reader is better informed.
That's why I think the sentence should be reinserted in the Lead. 200.91.90.34 00:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Information and content in the lead section is supposed to be well sourced and cited; everything I've added has been thoroughly fact-checked, cited and is fully supported.
I reverted to the previous version because Hank Wilson essentially destroyed the section with his edit, including deleting much of the section, and inserting unsupported statements and comments which should be in the TALK page, or in other sections of the article.
Replacing 'avant guard heterosexuals' with the phrase 'men who have sex with men' is inappropriate and misrepresents what avant guard heterosexuals are. It is also redundant, since the first part of the sentence had already stated poppers are popular "among homosexuals". MDwife 21:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
My earlier edit of the lead section was an attempt to make the section referring to controversy neutral. It is not neutral. It states the controversy, i.e. whether poppers are connected to AIDS, but is one sided. It renders a verdict citing as evidence a 1977 news article and a 1983 Consumer Products Safety Commission Study. Although it acknowledges dozens of studies have been conducted, it fails to summarize the findings and concerns which support a connection with AIDS.It acknowledges that research continues but fails to state that is because research to date has found a connection to AIDS. The connection to AIDS is two fold, either of which warrants inclusion and explanation.First, poppers are immunosuppressive and might increase the susceptibility to infections, including HIV and KS.Second,poppers effect sexual behavior increasing the risk of getting infected with HIV.There are dozens of published epidemiological studies citing this association.It is fine to include that association is not proof of causation. I have not included them to date in the reference section because it seems that most people acknowledge the disinhibiting effect of poppers. I have focused on the research showing that poppers are immunosuppressive because most people, including AIDS researchers and service providers are unfamiliar with the accumulating findings.
Seems reasonable to state both sides. One side says poppers have been used safely for a long time and that the concern about them being connected to AIDS is unwarranted. The other side says accumulating research finds popper use is immunosuppressive and might increase susceptibility to infections, including HIV and KS. Epidemiological research finds using poppers is associated with increasing risky sexual behavior increasing the likelihood of HIV infection.Its neutral to refer to research limitations citing conflicting results, but important to add that there have been variations in protocols(dose quantity,dose frequency,mice, rat, human subjects)which might explain those variations.
There are credentialed scientists and activists on both sides of the controversy. The research continues precisely because of the findings to date,limitations acknowledged. A great example is the 1999 Soderberg study .... finding that tumor growth was promoted when mice were exposed to nitrite vapors. I think folks trying to navigate safely through the AIDS epidemic should benefit from the research to date. There is no claim that the research to date is definitive.
Its important to note that the publicized 1983 CDC mice study heralded by the poppers industry as vindicating their product did find that mice exposed to the highest dose,those that did not die, showed signs of thymus atrophy....the thymus is source of t cells....you do not want it to atrophy. That was a big clue that it was effecting the immune system.
The cigarette industry has its "experts" and denied for decades that nicotine was harmful. I see a replay with the poppers industry denying that there product is hazardous.That www.allaboutpoppers.com failed to cite any researchwith cautionary findings until recently belies their goal. That they are now debunking and dismissing ALL the research to date as flawed also belies their goal. They understand that thinking consumers will self correct. Some will stop using poppers. Others will use less and use less often. Their profits will be impacted as people are informed. Granted, about a third of gay guys will use poppers independent of research results. And a third already hate poppers. Its the middle third which could go either way which is the focus of efforts to educate consumers.
Bruce Voeller's archives include material which shows how the poppers industry lobbied and campaigned to defeat any consumer education and protection efforts. Yet, Congress, prodded by gay activists passed the 1991 ban on sales and distribution. In San Francisco, in 1982, the gay doctors group, Bay Area Physician for Human Rights,worked with the Committee to Monitor Poppers to get the SF Board of Supervisors to pass a point of sale warning...if you sold poppers, you had to post a warning to consumers that poppers might be immunosuppressive... To date the poppers industry has circumvented consumer protection laws by self labeling its products as room odorizers and video head cleaners. They have failed to do the safety testing required if they marketed an acknowledged drug. And as for the long history of amyl nitrite being used as a prescription drug, there was no safety testing to see its impact on the immune system...back in the 1800s when it was originally developed. And not so sure that cornonary users were taking 30 hits at a session. 128.218.39.163 00:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson 128.218.39.163 00:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The reference section erroneously cites a 2004 Soderberg study..."Tumor growth promoted..." That study was done in 1999 and already cited. there two analyses for this study...one under the correct chronological date - 1999, and a second under the erroneous date 2004...I would like to delete the erroneous cite. Posting this as a courtesy and also to point out that there exists an second analysis...to this one study ...both by New Orleans Jazz.
one study, one author, but two analyses??I assume any reference analysis can be wiki modified just like any other article ...an alternative to modifying and expanding the analyses is to have multiple analysis..."Analysis 1"..."Analysis 2"... or finally and probably the best option is to cite more from the original publication. 128.218.39.163 01:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson 128.218.39.163 01:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Merck Manual's omission of the research about poppers being immunosuppressive is unfortunate, but not surprising. Wikipedia has the opportunity to be cutting edge by noting the accumulating immunosuppression research about poppers.Wikipedia's "poppers" article is now listed prior to www.allaboutpoppers.com which has been number 1 or 2 for over 4 years. Google and Yahoo used to accept sponsored ads from the poppers industry. Then both responsibly reviewed information they became aware of and changed their practice. Merck will be informed of the immunosuppression research and its implications for increasing susceptibility to HIV infection.
Poppers have gone off the radar screen several times....when HIV was discovered, when the KS virus HHV-8 was discovered, when Congress banned sales and distribution of poppers, when the poppers industry misinforms people with www.allaboutpoppers.com propaganda site. Unfortunately many HIV researchers and service providers are unfamiliar with the published research about poppers. You wouldn't find any reference to the immunosuppression research if you relied on www.allaboutpoppers.com . Prior to its recent content change it made NO reference to any of the immunosuppression research. Hankwilson 07:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 07:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is it that once this poppers article was finally being improved significantly, Hank Wilson and his side kick, Dalmation55, came in and vandalized it to the point that it no longer even has a Lead section?
The last time I visited the site a week ago, it had been dramatically improved. Now it's been trashed by these two nutterballs.
You guys should take your beef against poppers elsewhere. Or, if they have any legitamasy at all, then you should prove it. So far you've proven nothing except that you're narrow minded zealots who seem to live only to shove your opinions down the throats of others. Toejam34 21:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Toejam!
Wikipedia is not here for the conspiratorial promotion of Pac West products or websites. The constant commercial promotion of Pac West products, and linking to Pac West websites, has been a feature of the sabotage performed by one media identified indvidual (probably based in Florida). This individual has been responsible for a campaign across the internet which recommends inhaling Pac West "room odoriser" products. This is not only a danger to public health - it is an attempt to outwit enforcement.
Your silly insults "nutterballs" and so forth indicate that you are unaware of the serious nature of this issue. I am sure that you will change your mind in the coming months.
I think this article is valuable to both consumers and historians to include both pro citations and con citations and a spectrum of points of view.
:: As for the credibility of the www.allaboutpoppers.com website...Google has pulled this website from its search results for "poppers"...and that website had been listed number one or two for over 4 years. Several months ago the content of www.allaboutpoppers.com was changed...totally...I believe in response to the realization that the accumulating research about poppers is the achilles heal of the poppers industry. Earlier commentary on this discussion indicated that the www.allaboutpoppers.com was linked to selling poppers/the poppers industry. www.allaboutpoppers.com self pro claimed characterization about being the most credible source of information about poppers is challengable when it fails to cite most of the published scientific research on poppers, limitations acknowledged. Most of the pro poppers commentary and testimonials have been made prior to most of the published scientific research. Note the dates of the articles cited, testimonial dates, etc. or the omission of such.
In 1981, in response to the initial reports of gay men dying of pneumocystis pneumonia and Kaposi's Sarcoma(KS), the Committee to Monitor Poppers was formed by gay men in San Francisco. The goal was to educate the gay community about the known and potential hazards of using poppers. Doctors were involved from the beginning. Previously in 1977, Dr. Richard Hamilton cautioned gay men that poppers were hazardous and he unsuccessfully petitioned the California Health Department to stop sales of poppers. In 1982, the Bay Area Physicians for Human Rights, a gay and lesbian doctors organization, joined the Committee to Monitor poppers in successfully lobbying the San Francisco Board of Supervisors to mandate that warnings be posted where poppers were sold. The city of West Hollywood passed a similar poppers point of sale warning law. In 1986, The California AIDS Advisory Commission, recommended that California pass a similar state popppers point of sale warning mandate. Several doctors were on the commission and state law mandated that a warning be posted where poppers were sold.
Hank Wilson was a founder of the Committee to Monitor Poppers. He and John Lauritsen co authored DEATHRUSH, a book about the hazards of using poppers in 1985. Lauritsen subsequently became a leading AIDS denialist while Wilson continued gay rights and AIDS activism.In 1985 Wilson co founded Mobilization Against AIDS. In 1987, Wilson was diagnosed with AIDS and as of 2006 is a long term survivor, and continues his AIDS activism. It is a distortion of reality to characterize Wilson as an AIDS denialist. Popper proponents mischaracterize Wilson in an attempt to discredit his education efforts about poppers. Hankwilson 03:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 03:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Latest "poppers industry" attempt to push the inhalant Rush (see >captainrush.com/condom.php and pwdeuropa.com/hir_c.html) Condoms with Captain Rush on the label? No doubt this will be presented as a "safe sex" message. PWD and Great Lakes Products have a long history of promoting safe sex, don't they?
A little help with the history:
Actually, Hank, I was in San Francisco at the time this was happening. When writing history it can be helpful to consider other's memories, too.
As you'll recall, your 'committee to monitor poppers' was your own vehicle. It was originally a one-man committee you created and it consisted of only you. The only other 'gay man' originally involved was John Lauritsen from New York, and he didn't hook up with you until later. He's on record as saying as much.
You're right about the point-of-sale warning signs. They were a good idea, only not because there was any proof that poppers were harmful (because there was none) but precisely because it couldn't be proven 100% that they were not harmful. (It's impossible to prove a negative, so better safe than sorry). As it later turned out, scientists discovered that poppers were not the cause of AIDS or KS after-all. However, once you'd written that poppers caused AIDS and were dangerous, you and Lauritsen could never let go of, and decided to use it as a platform for an ongoing campaign against poppers.
The book that you and Lauritsen co-wrote, Deathrush, though a cute play on words, was actually panned as a poorly-written alarmist pamphlet, and disregarded by all but a handful of rabid anti-HIV radicals.
As you'll recall, when you first started pushing it in San Francisco, Deathrush was the the subject of ridicule. And, I'm not making this up, it has remained the subject of ridicule by readers the entire time it's been on Amazon.com, even today as evidenced by the following post which typifies the almost unanimous disdain for your book by readers:
September 20, 1998 Reviewer's post on Amazon.com:... This is junk science at its worse.
Lauritsen and Wilson sadly have it all wrong in a booklet that is nearly twenty years old. Their theories about "poppers" and AIDS are as outside the mainstream of responsible research as are their theories that AIDS is NOT caused by the HIV virus.
Such junk science, as exemplified in this small booklet, should indeed be "out of print", since it terribly misleads the reader and does a disservice to all those impacted and affected by HIV and AIDS....
It's not a distortion of reality to characterize you as an AIDS denialist. Go back and reread the articles in the New York Native and Christopher Street magazine, both published by your AIDS denialist colleagues. You and Lauritsen were joined at the hip in your zeal to keep shouting that AIDS was not caused by HIV, and that it was caused by among other things poppers. It's all there in black and white.
For a guy who prides himself on being a "gay rights and AIDS activist" it is inconsistent with all that that means for you to suggest that a company is less then a good corporate citizen when it promotes safer sex through the use of condoms. Unless you really have changed your earlier position that HIV does not cause AIDS, you should know and believe that condoms are one of the very best ways to help stop the spread of AIDS, and you should encourage their use at all times. Using that criteria the Captain RUSH Condom ( http://www.captainrush.com/condom.php) is a welcome addition to the arsenal of weapons in the war on AIDS. If they get more people to wear condoms, that can only be a good thing.
I think your remark suggesting Great Lakes Products didn't have a history of promoting safe sex seemed a bit inappropriate. You'll remember that they actually did have a long history. I can remember that even before anyone knew what caused AIDS, Great Lakes Products was running full page ads in most of the important gay magazines and newspapers encouraging people to be careful and take care of themselves. I think they ran them for over a year. You can see the ads in the major gay archives in Los Angeles and New York City. They deservedly got a lot of positive publicity for their efforts.
You'd have to ask others in the community, but I'm certain that since the 1970's the makers of the PWD brands have donated a lot of their profits toward the support of important causes and issues, including promoting safe sex. Daddlylonglegs 02:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks like the anti popper Hank Wilson and his alter ego Dalmation have taken over the page on poppers.
Too bad. Wilson has run off any credible sources of information in his attempts to stiffle debate on the issue of poppers, like he's been doing here in San Francisco for years. A one sided debate is hardly a debate. But anyone who lives here and has ever followed the poppers debate probably knows who Hank Wilson is; it's common knowledge here that he's pretty much a nutter ball on this issue. It's his only 'claim to fame' and helps keep him in at least the gay press once in a while. That may excite Wilson, but it's unfair to the public who deserve a two-sided debate.
No matter what Wilson says to the contrary, the record is full of data that shows poppers to be relatively harmelss, even if they're inhaled for enhancing sexual pleasure. For all Wilson's trashing of the site called all about poppers www.allaboutpoppers.com, it's actually one of the most credible sites about poppers to be found anywhere on the web. There is no credible evidence after all these years that shows poppers to be significantly harmful. Wilson's own studies that he banters about are so flawed their credibility rating is essentially zero.
Just a few weeks ago a major study was released that showed poppers had no impact on sero conversion in MSM who were HIV+. Where's Wilson on that one?
Minnie1964 02:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
It's an illegal drug. Get over it! They sell it as a video cleaner for a reason! And your Poppers ads on allaboutpoppers aren't any neutral information at all. -- 91.89.6.50 19:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Sadly you have it wrong again. "Poppers" are not a drug. Check your facts. And, they're sold as video head cleaner for obvious reasons. Everyone knows that. You are also wrong about all about poppers.com, it has no ads and it's the best site on the web for information about poppers. Tell us of another site you're aware of that has more information or better information. We're all ears and would all be happy to have a peak. BTW, the site is not 'mine' as you imply. You anti popper types are all alike: you don't have any basis in fact for your outrageous claims that poppers are harmful, you cannot engage in civil or coherent debate on the issue, you disregard and dismiss valid science in favor of flawed studies and biased reporting, and you're basically just wrong about nearly everything you believe and espouse about poppers. On top of all that, you personally attack anyone who disagrees with you rather than trying to support your position with valid information and fact. You really should one day open your minds and look at the facts. But right back acha: Poppers are safe and the world is round, not flat. And YOU need to "get over it!".
Minnie1964 04:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Hank Wilson and Dalmation are part of the 'flat earth society' for sure, but I wonder if they think Homosexual EVIL is everywhere, too. I wonder if they're just another couple of queens who have internalized homophobia and just like the fallen preachers we see every day, they know they've 'sinned' by doing poppers and they want to atone for their 'sins'. I just saw this in a forum and it strikes me that it sounds like Wilson/Dalmation and his/her/their war on poppers:
Satan spoke thru his servant Bill again: > And Max spoke through his sock puppet "Virtuous" again.
I speak for myself...and for Jesus Christ, naturally.
> Yes, thirty years ago every family was all "Leave It to Beaver" and "I > Love Lucy".
I never said that. But fifty years ago most families were at least together and not in tatters. I think we could all learn a lot from Ward and June Cleaver...except that Beaver needed more discipline. He was always disobeying his parents and getting into trouble
> I think you need to be "degraded" and see how good it really feels.
I already know what a dog's tongue feels like on my hand. Only a pervert would enjoy such sensations...especially on the body's more private parts. Ugh!
> Probably less than you, Max.
I'm Velma. You're terribly confused. Do you use those poppers to dilate your rectum when you engage in sexual perversions?
> I'm sorry that the lesbian lover you had was so poor at it.
I know how to resist lesbians. A knuckle sandwich works just fine against their slurpy tongues.
> So what's your point? Different tastes for different people? I can agree > with that.
But homosexuals tastes are perverted. They seek out degradation. Do you know that they lick each others buttcracks and then French kiss?
> Thank god for that!
But that's what unleashed the aids on the world. Have you been tested?
> No they don't.
Rectal prolapse is common among gayo men and bisexual porn whores.
> Aww...poor Max is running away.
No. He's just resisting conversion. You'll never sleep with him again though. Praying for decent people who are careful to avoid wickedness... Wholly holy, good and Godly gospel witness Chaingangball 22:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The Pac West puppets (PWP's) are on good form! Hello "gentlemen"! or is that the singular? Chaingangball is probably best ignored as even JM / PWP's don't stoop to this level.
"You anti popper types are all alike: you don't have any basis in fact for your outrageous claims that poppers are harmful, you cannot engage in civil or coherent debate on the issue, you disregard and dismiss valid science in favor of flawed studies and biased reporting, and you're basically just wrong about nearly everything you believe and espouse about poppers. On top of all that, you personally attack anyone who disagrees with you rather than trying to support your position with valid information and fact."
This is great stuff! Bully for you. Thanks for saying it so well. Hank Wilson and his friend Dalamation -- popper haters each (I wonder, too, if they are the same person) -- have continually vandalized this wikipedia article on poppers for the last year or more. He has removed all the wonderful analysis to the flawed "studies" he's posted in this article, and constantly alters and edits any posts to remove information he does not agree with.
Seems he can't justify his position, and instead deletes anything that challenges him.
Gostu98 04:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The PWP's (Pac West Puppets) strike again! LOL "all the wonderful analysis" you mention.. bought and paid for by guess who?????? Not the highly regulated and reputable "poppers industry" surely? The guys that sell inhalants as cleaners? I am sure that we can trust them...what d'ya all think? Do you think that they give a fig if you cause yourself long term damage by involving yourself with their hyped up product?
Shine the light of truth on the cockroaches and they'll get back to the dark poverty from whence they came.
I think this article and its discussion page are a good illustration of the fact that the Wikipedia principle just doesn't work out. Drug producers promote their drug here which is illegal in most countries, they declare scientific results as "not neutral", they accuse others of homophobia and publish disgusting hate texts against homosexuals themselves, and even though they're ignorant of the medical research on the topic and of the background needed to understand it consider themselves responsible for "guarding" the article. Isn't that absurd? How can Wikipedia ever aim at becoming a reliable source of information with letting such things happening?
Looking at the texts above, I consider Wikipedia rather a platform for hate speech than an encyclopedia. The claim of being the latter is an insult to the true encylopedists, especially Denis Diderot. -- 85.216.120.103 18:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia has the most comprehensive bibliography of research on poppers. Research is accumulating since the spotlight was shined on poppers back in 1981 when popper use was suspected of causing AIDS, initially called GRID for "Gay related immunodeficiency disease".The research to date has limitations, but taken as a whole, it shows that poppers are not the harmless drug that its manufacturers and sellers claim.Admittedly, the research has limitations but the high prevalence of use by gay/bi men compels more research.
Poppers are cheap to make, profitable to sell. There is an incentive for popper sellers to proclaim poppers safe, distort or deny research,and make ad hominem attacks on those who publicize the potential dangers. There is always a significant segment that will continue to use harmful products after learning they are harmful. Individual choice. Informed choice seems a reasonable goal.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hankwilson ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
Take a look at the German Wikipedia: Poppers -- The bibliography has just been deleted there. This has happened here as well and it had to be restored continuously. Without continuous "guarding" of the page all scientific content will erode sooner or later. Wikipedia is garbage. -- 87.139.42.96 11:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Why has every nation worldwide BANNED poppers, Cactuspus? It is illegal to sell inhalants! Drugs which dramatically lower blood pressure are a danger to public health, and that is why the sale was made illegal. Why do the poppers industry feel able to circumvent the law? Are they above it? Please answer my questions. These "bought and paid for" reports and other falsehoods planted in the gay press in the 90's are symptomatic of an industry filled with hubris and greed. Rather like a Columbian cartel commisioning a report on the benefits of cocaine.
Cactuspus, may I ask you a favour? please never use the term "nazi" again..you clearly do not understand it's meaning
Dalmation55 15:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The above has been copied to German Wikipedia by Cactuspuss, see
[2]. The German Poppers page has been blocked from editing after I had tried to restore the scientific references, and the administrators call them "wissenschaftliche Irrlehre" (= "scientific heresy"). What do you now think of Wikipedia? --
87.139.42.96
15:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't care anymore. If these pages are transformed into ads for illegal drugs, this would only be more proof that Wikipedia is garbage. Why should I waste my time in guarding scientific content on an anti-scientific platform? Go to hell! -- 91.89.6.103 19:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Just dropping by to share something.
Hank Wilson and Dalmatian may be one in the same, but it appears Dalmatian, when he posts without signing on trying to hide his identity, is always using the same server in Germany. Wilson uses severs in San Francisco. (If Wilson lives in San Francisco, this would make sense unless he's doing some fancy VPN from elsewhere.)
Dalmatian is either in Germany, or he's eslewhere in Europe (perhaps even in one of the alledged shady Eastern European countries). Given the change in IP addresses when he posts, he's probaby moving around and using WiFi at one or more different coffeeshops near where he lives. Or maybe he's using VPN from somewhere.
Because he complained about a German Wikipedia page having administrators who are blocking him from vandalizing the German Wiki poppers page, it's likely that they know him well over there.
This all points to the real possibility that Dalmatian and Wilson are working together in some coordination of their anti-popper campaign, and that the Europeans are keeping them from vandalizing their Wiki pages.
That's how it looks from here.
In case anyone is interested here's the trail that I discovered:
23 Jan 07 19:47 Dalmatian threatened a poster by telling the poster to "Go to hell!!" Dalmatian used: IP address is 91.89.6.103 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
23 Jan 07 Dalmatian Complaining about being blocked from vandalizing the German Wikipedia with Hank Wilson's flawed bibliography Dalmatian used: IP address is 87.139.42.96 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
23 Jan 07 15:13 Dalmatian proclaiming that Cactuspus cross posted to the German Wikipeia Dalmatian used: IP address is 87.139.42.96 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
23 Jan 07 11:09 Dalmatian/Hank Wilson posted the following in Talk:
22 January 2007 11:24 Dalmatian posted Talk "take a look at German Wikipeia...." Dalmatian used: IP address is 87.139.42.96 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
16 January 2007 19:38 Anonymous poster (probably Dalmatian or a sock puppet) questions someone's challenge to the POV of Hank Wilson's flawed list of references by deleting the Wiki alert on POV-Section. They also said: "References - These are scientific quotes. Why is this considered POV? If science is POV, what isn't?" IP address is 91.89.6.50 City: Frankfurt Hessen Country: Germany Continent: Europe Time Zone: GMT+1
9 December 2006 07:08 Hank Wilson posted in Talk using: IP address is 209.244.188.83 City: San Francisco California Country: United States Continent: North America Time Zone: PST
9 December 2006 06:36 Hank Wilson posted using the following IP: IP address is 209.244.188.83 City: San Francisco California Country: United States Continent: North America Time Zone: PST Msmchaser 23:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I have never posted on the German wikipedia page and have no idea what you are talking about. Conspiracy theories apppeal to those that fear authority, do they not? I feel rather embarassed for you, you are clearly a very silly person. Dalmation55 14:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone earlier mentioned an Australian study and I located it. True enough, it shows that there is no link between popper use and unprotected sex amongst HIV-positive gay men, at least not in Sydney, one of the world's major cities.
Hank Wilson continues to deny it, but the Australian researchers seem to have just confirmed it: Earlier studies looking at the relationship between recreational drug use and sexual risk taking have produced conflicting results. Although some studies, often conducted in the US, have found a link between the use of specific illicit drugs, particularly methamphetamine, and unprotected anal sex, these findings have not been supported by other studies. There have also been methodological limitations with many studies, particularly as they have simply tried to establish if unprotected sex and drug taking occurred within the same time period, not on the same occasion.
In this new research the investigators found that “illict drug use was no greater in encounters in which a condom was not used than in those which a condom was used.”
I'm sure Wilson will attempt to debunk this study, too, but it'd be better if he'd just allow both sides of the story to be told, and not fear an open discussion on the matter.
Reference
Prestage G et al. Use of illicit drugs among gay men living with HIV in Sydney. AIDS 21( suppl 1): S49 – 55, 2007.
Msmchaser 20:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added a comprehensive Lead to the article containing links to sites mentioned -- including especially a link to the web's most anti-popper site. I included links to all referenced sites in the Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy including two popper sites referenced there (Neither of which appear to sell to the public and which seem to be informational only. From an historical and sociological perspective it seemed to me to make sense to include them, but if there is common consent to remove the popper sites I will do so.) I believe this Lead adds to the article and hope it can stand. MDwife 14:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Scheinwerfermann 00:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I really enjoy reading Joe Miller's pompous orations on this page. Keep it up Joe - you should have been a lawyer! DrNog 11:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is the source of sometimes heated debate and needs careful attention.
If you are compelled to edit please do not not delete entire entries. Instead please use Talk to discuss your edits preferably before they are made.
Playing nice would be appreciated. MDwife 23:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Just an add on: At the moment the wiki page on poppers certainly needs to be checked for neutrality, I would contest the statement that alkyl nitrites are 'mentally addictive drugs'.
Poppers risk factor for HIV/Sexually transmitted infections:A Review
A review of club drugs found the most evidence for methamphetamine and volatile nitrites for being associated with HIV/sexually transmitted infections. See www.Pubmed.gov ( PMID 17002993): "Club drugs as causal risk factors for HIV acquisition among men who have sex with men: a review." by Drumright,LN et al. in Substance Use and Misuse 2006;41(10-12):1551-601.
The authors reviewed medical and pyschology databases for articles published between January 1980 and August 2005 demonstrating associations between HIV/Sexually Transmitted Infection risk and club drug use.They reviewed 74 articles and found 30 with adjusted risk ratios for associations with HIV/STD infections and club drug use by men who have sex with men. After constructing a conceptual framework of biologically plausible pathways for causation, they used Hill's criteria to examine club drugs as causal risks for HIV. They found the most evidence for methamphetamine and volatile nitrites.They acknowledged that more research is needed. Hankwilson 16:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 16:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
"A study has found that the majority of HIV-positive gay men in Sydney, Australia, used “party drugs” such as ecstasy in the previous six months. However, no significant relationship was found by the investigators between recreational drug use and unprotected anal sex with casual partners. The study is published in a special supplement to the January 2nd edition of AIDS. The investigators comment, “the relationship between illicit drug use and risk behaviour is neither simple nor direct.”
Earlier studies looking at the relationship between recreational drug use and sexual risk taking have produced conflicting results. Although some studies, often conducted in the US, have found a link between the use of specific illicit drugs, particularly methamphetamine, and unprotected anal sex, these findings have not been supported by other studies. There have also been methodological limitations with many studies, particularly as they have simply tried to establish if unprotected sex and drug taking occurred within the same time period, not on the same occasion.
Investigators from Sydney therefore designed a study to explore the relationship between illicit drug use and a sample of HIV-positive gay men enrolled in the ongoing Positive Health study. They examined the factors differentiating drug users from non-users and looked at the use of drugs both generally and on specific occasions, particularly during casual sexual encounters.
A total of 274 men were included in the study in 2004 and 209 attended a second follow-up visit in 2005. In face-to-face interviews, the men were asked about their sexual identity, involvement in the gay community, contact with the HIV epidemic, sexual relationships, sexual practices with both regular and casual partners, and their drug and alcohol use. Information was also gathered on age, education, area of residence, employment and income.
Almost all the men (94%) identified as gay, and the majority participated in the gay scene, with 63% reporting that most or all their friends were gay and 58% said that they spent a lot of their free time with gay men. The men had a mean age of 45 years, 75% were Anglo-Australian, 40% had been to university, 63% were employed, and 50% earned at least AU$32,000 a year.
Most of the men reported the use of some illicit drug in the previous six months. The most commonly used drugs were amyl nitrite (poppers), which were used by 51% of men and marijuana, which 63% of individuals said they had used. A “party drug” of some kind was used by just over 50% of men. Ecstasy was the most frequently taken drug of this kind, being used by 40% of men. Methamphetamine was used by 22% of men, although only 6% reported its use on a monthly basis and 3% said that they used it weekly.
Factors significantly associated with use of party drugs in 2004 were younger age (p < 0.001), socialising on the gay party scene (p < 0.001), and engagement in esoteric sexual practices (p < 0.001).
Interviews with 209 men from 2005 were also available for analysis. The results were broadly similar than those for 2004, with 52% saying they had used party drugs. The investigators also found that the same factors were significantly associated with party drug use.
The investigators then turned their attention to the answers the men provided about drug use during sexual encounters. In the six months before the 2004 interview, 48% of men said that they had had used illicit drugs to enhance pleasure during a casual sexual encounter. The most commonly used drugs were poppers (62%), alcohol (43%), and erectile dysfunction drugs (35%). Methamphetamine use during casual sex was reported by 22% of men, and the investigators found that two-thirds of these men used an erectile dysfunction drug at the same time.
Of the men interviewed in 2005, 46% (131) reported unprotected anal intercourse with a casual partner in the previous six months. Of these men, 103 provided detailed information about their most recent sexual encounters. The investigators found that “illict drug use was no greater in encounters in which a condom was not used than in those which a condom was used.”
Reference
Prestage G et al. Use of illicit drugs among gay men living with HIV in Sydney. AIDS 21( suppl 1): S49 – 55, 2007. MDwife 22:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the claim that poppers are "mentally addictive drugs". The article on addiction says that psychological addiction is not the result of anything inherent about the substance, but repeated behaviour being associated with endorphins. Poppers, therefore, are exactly as addictive as square dancing. The citations said nothing, they merely both linked to ads for a book with chapters titled "inhalant addiction" and "amyl nitrite addiction".
-- Awesome 00:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I've tried poppers once. It wasn't very addictive. It just made gay sex fun.
121.6.225.88
The poppers article is getting better. There are fewer personal attacks in the discussion page too. If the extrremes can be kept at bay it may stay that way. Bay House Deals 02:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm performing a big cleanup of the article. I'm not going to add or remove any information, but I'm referencing anything I can find a reference for, and leaving requests for references for things that I can't find. I'll go through the references section itself as well, and remove anything that doesn't contribute to the article itself--it's pointless having a reference that isn't used IMO. If they're particularly relevent, but don't contribute, I may move them to the "External links" section.
I'm using footnote referencing, as that way, every fact can be verified, and the sources checked easily. I think one of the problems this article has had is that people have been adding information without references, and because the reference section is so huge, nobody's put the effort to see if it is actually true. me_and 17:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
A meta analysis of published research between 1980 and 2005 found "the most evidence for methamphetamine and volatile nitrites" use as a causal factors for acquisition of HIV/STDs. "Club Drugs as Causal Risk Factors for HIV Acquistion Among Men Who Have Sex with Men: A Review" in Sustance Use and Misuse, 41:1551-1601,2006. PMID 17002993. The authors found 17 studies that met their criteria: 13 demonstrating popper use as an association with acquisition of hiv/std or risky sexual behavior and 4 did not, "indicating good consistency and strength in association." There were 7 longitudinal studies, 3 case control studies, and seven cross-sectional studies. 6 or 7 longitudinal studies demonstrated associations between popper use and elevated incidence of sexually transmitted infections, unprotected anal intercourse with a serodiscordant ot unknown status partner, or relapse in condom use during anal sex; providing evidence for temporality.
The studies cited in this analysis can be cited and the evidence cited as a concern about popper use fueling the HIV epidemic among men who have sex with men.
The controversy section needs to cite 1.the role of poppers being a factor in behavior change leading to HIV acquisition.2. that poppers are immunosuppressive and the article needs to include every published article showing immunosuppression. Whether the immunosuppression is significant is debatable. It may be that dose, i.e. quantity of sniffs,or frequency of popper use may determine susceptibility to infection.
Published research about poppers should be cited and referenced. If you mention immunosuppression as a controversial issue then you should include all the studies that assess immunosuppression, independent of limitations. Most research has limitations hence almost every discussion section cites some. Hankwilson 20:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 20:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This recently published study PMID 17325605 underscores the importance of poppers use being a cofactor in HIV acquisition. This study should be in the reference section and cited with a cite number.
Artiles,documents,etc in the reference section should have numbers so that several studies can be cited in the the main article to validate a statement. For example, in the controversial issue of whether poppers are immunosuppressive, it would be helpful to have a dozen plus references, or their cite numbers, following such a contention. Makes it harder for the "poppers are not immunosuppressive, or not significantly immunosuppressive" to just dismiss the contention when the published research overtime is accumulating.
Taken as a whole, from 1980s onward, the evidence supports that poppers are immunosuppressive. "Significantly immunosuppressive" seems debatable and may depend upon the dose and frequency of popper use.
The reference list needs to retain all the studies showing immunosuppression, independent of whether there are study limitations. That they have been published in research journals should warrant their inclusion. Hankwilson 21:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 21:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Why have Pac West been allowed to vandalise this article YET again? Also, they are constantly planting their brand names on the article - Rush and their new brand, Locker Room. When will this be stopped? Is Wikipedia now accepting adverts from manufacturers of "room deodourizers?" This is shameful. Cue the usual puppets.... Dalmation55 12:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
They are known as poppers actually. Rush is a brand of room deodouriser, and is misused as poppers according to the Pac West website. Dalmation55 10:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
What total bullshit! The reason why many people point to Pac West (actually GLP, and the lonely owner) is that he has a long history of using this page as a link farm for allaboutpoppers.com. That dates back several years. I was not the first to point out who was behind this vandalism.
This crazy, and wholly innacurate attack, which is based on god knows what, is an indication that the poppers sellers are very active on wikipedia. Everyone knows this. It has been exposed many times. Dalmation55 10:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
More paranoid libel. I have never met, nor spoken with Hank Wilson, in my entire life. You clearly have a persecution complex. Your enterprise is based upon avoidance of enforcement against your product - misrepresentation as a deodoriser. This is simaltaneous with an online campaign to promote the misuse of inhlants as an aphrodisiac. This is probably illegal. You probably have more experience of the courts than I, dating back to the 1970s, so perhaps you have a better idea. I am sure that a conspiracy to outwit the enforcement of law has a name?
I can imagine that you have become very nervous, and irritable, given your clandestine activities. This imagined conspiracy against you is testament to the fact that you are not rational in your response to the widespread concern regarding the misuse of the inhalants that you are selling. Dalmation55 10:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Published research articles should be included in the reference section. There have been multiple deletions of published research which showed that popper use was a significant risk factor in unsafe sex and/or HIV infection, or that popper use had an effect on the immune system. When the article is reviewed, hopefully the reviewers will put the published articles back in the reference listings and utilize them in a controversial issues section. The achilles heal of the poppers industry is the published research which continues to accumulate. Reliance upon experts from the early and mid 80s is questionable since the research continued. Their views that poppers are harmless should be taken in a historical context. Most of the published research, risk for unsafe sex, hiv seroconversion, and immunosuppressive effects of poppers have been published after the experts went on record. Recent expert testimony supporting poppers, or giving them a "no risk" assessment are lacking. On the contrary, recent researchers are saying pay attention to poppers because they are a factor in fueling a continuing HIV/AIDS epidemic among men who have sex with men. Hankwilson 03:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 03:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Wilson: No responsible person is suggesting or encouraging the misuse of nitrites as poppers in this article. I respect your right to say anything you want, but what you've been saying in this article is not only alarmist and misleading, it is contrary to the general consensus of responsible researchers and studies on nitrites. For example, your position is at direct odds with this government study:
Alkyl Nitrites study -- As part of the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 (Section 4015), Congress requested that NIDA, through HHS, conduct a study of alkyl nitrites to determine the extent and public risk associated with alkyl nitrite use. For this study, NIDA analyzed data from three ongoing nationwide substance abuse surveys to ascertain trends in alkyl nitrite abuse in the general population and in specific sub-populations. In addition, NIDA conducted a technical review workshop on March 31, 1987 with leading authorities in the area of the alkyl nitrites. The study reviewed such topics as the extent of nitrite inhalant use among adolescents, homosexual men, and intravenous drug abusers; the results of acute toxicity studies in animals; and a review of the epidemiological associations of nitrites with Kaposi's sarcoma in AIDS. Based on the surveys and the workshop, the HHS Report to Congress concluded that nitrites are not a causal factor in AIDS infection. There was consideration during the workshop whether use of large amounts of nitrite inhalants might be a co-factor in Kaposi's sarcoma, but the Report stated that medical studies failed to confirm any such association. The Report also found that there was a 21% decrease in use by high school students in 1985-1986. Because of the lack of significant health risks associated with nitrite use, and the fact that less than 3% of the population has ever used it, the HHS Report suggested no Federal legislation and recommended that alkyl nitrites not be treated as drugs. Based on these recommendations, the Committee concludes that no further Federal action as to alkyl nitrites is warranted. However, in view of the Report's finding of somewhat increased use by high school students, the Committee recommends that the States consider prohibiting access by minors to alkyl nitrite products.
Msmchaser 15:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
To Msmchaser: The HHS study you cite was published over 20 years ago. Because of congressional legislation in 1986, NIDA conducted a human study to see if popper use effected the immune system. Elizabeth Dax et al. conducted the study which found that natural killer cell function was suppressed. The dosage of that study was less than a typical user might use because the Safety Monitoring Committee would not allow more than 3 sniffs. 3 sniffs would be at a low end of the sprectrum of quantity of use. See: Dax,E.M. et al. "Amyl Nitrite Alters Human In Vitro Immune Function" in Immunopharmacology and Immunotoxicology, 13(4), 557-587 (1991). This study was conducted in 1986, but the full report not published until 1991...a long lag time. And it was not properly indexed by the National Library of Medicine for a couple of years. The author did not include the key word AIDS in the summary, despite it being funded as an AIDS study. Community advocacy got National Library of Medicine to index it correctly. Also, the author moved to Australia and failed to publicize her findings to the affected gay community. I consulted with Dax. The Dax study is very significant because it was a human study, not a mice or rat study. It was done because of the 1986 Congressional mandate.
Since the Dax human study, NIDA has gone back to its mice and rat studies. The immunosuppression findings of the Soderberg lab and Fung HL /Tran labs are included in the reference section. The overwhelming immunosuppression research has been done subsequent to the HHS report of 1986 and makes that report important for a historical analysis only. That the report is used to exonerate the safety of popper use illustrates why the gay community is confused, mis informed about poppers. The HHS report findings are obsolete in the context of the accumalted research since the report was issued. Joseph Miller, owner of Great Lakes Products, contributed thousands of dollars to politicians and lobbied heavily to influence government non response to sales of an illegal drug. Popper ads boasted of selling 10,000 bottles of RUSH...DAILY around the world. Big profits. Miller hired the chief enforcement officer of the Consumer Products Safety Commission upon his retirement. CPSC fined Miller a token $10,000 for violating the law. Government inaction against the popper industry may be because the health and safety of gay men is not a priority. It could be the result of effective lobbying on Miller's part, or a combination of factors.Some researchers and prevention workers have shied away from poppers because Peter Duesberg, an AIDS denialist cites poppers as harmful.However, recently researchers have called attention to popper use in the HIV epidemic. A speaker at the opening plenary of the Toronto 2006 International AIDS Conference cited popper use, along with crystal meth, as a driving factor in the HIV epidemic among men who have sex with men. Hankwilson 16:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 16:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
See the reference listings for Dax, 1991, human study finding natural killer cell function suppressed. See reference listing for dozen Soderberg lab studies, and HL Fung and DC Tran lab studies...all finding immune suppression or disregulation. The epidemiological studies of Buchbinder, Colfax, Ostrow, Plankey, Lampien PMID 17362516, and Drumright all find popper use a significant risk factor in unsafe sex or HIV seroconversion. Some of these listings of published research were removed from the reference section. This makes the article less authoritative. It also weakens the position of those of us who are urging a cautious, reduce use, or stop use of poppers approach. Hankwilson 16:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 16:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Dax et al. (1991) Amyl nitrate alters human in vitro immune function. Immunopharmacology and Immunotoxicology, 13:557.
Keilbasa and Fung (2000) Nitrite Inhalation in Rats Elevates Tissue NOS III Expression and Alters Tyrosine Nitration and Phosphorylation. Biochem and Biophysic. Res. Comm, 275:335.
Tran et al (2003) Inhalant nitrite exposure alters mouse hepatic angiogenic gene expression. Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications, 310:439.
Msmchaser 02:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Who wants poppers banned? Apparently a question being asked twenty years ago as shown in the following:
A ‘Fact Sheet’, originally publish in 1988 by Chemsearch, Ltd, of Indianapolis, IN
Here are the facts
"Poppers"... What are they?
1. "Poppers" is the street term used for nearly 50 years to describe the misuse of any alkyl nitrite (including amyl nitrite, isobutyl nitrite and butyl nitrite) as inhalants for recreational purposes.
2. Although "Poppers" have only recently come to the public attention, alkyl nitrites have been inhaled for over one hundred years. They have had a long and well-documented history of public safety. This record is strongly reinforced by the fact that during the past 35 years a very high probability has existed that a large percentage of all nitrite odorants sold were misused as "poppers".
Who Wants Them Banned and Why?
1. Despite that long safety record of alkyl nitrites, the AIDS phenomenon opened the door of opportunity for certain self-serving individuals to promote themselves as “experts" on the study of "poppers" and to condemn their use as unsafe. These self-proclaimed "experts" did not have the knowledge of immunology or epidemiology to make informed judgments about AIDS or its cause. Real experts now tell us that AIDS is caused, not by "poppers", but by a virus and that the misuse of nitrites as "poppers" appears rather clearly NOT to be causally associated with AIDS or any of its opportunistic infections. In 1987, the large MCS study, among others, confirmed that no such connection exists.
Are They Really Safe?
1. Anti-"popper" individuals suggest "poppers" are unsafe because they are not regulated by any government agency. This is simply not true. Of the compounds most commonly used as "poppers", amyl nitrite is regulated by the FDA and nitrite-based room odorizers are regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Within the past few years, the CPSC has twice been asked to restrict isobutyl nitrite products and has twice, after thorough investigation, decided that the safety record of these products did not indicate that such action was necessary. Although responsible nitrite odorant manufacturers have never encouraged or promoted the misuse of their nitrite odorants as "poppers", they have long recognized the high probability of such misuse. They, therefore, have shared a deep concern and responsibility toward each responsible adult user of these products. (in much the same manner that responsible children's crayon manufacturers recognize that their crayons will be eaten and thus assure that they are safely edible.)
2. A review of the literature clearly shows that inhalation of the alkyl nitrites poses no significant health hazard. ©1988 by Chemsearch, Ltd
Daddlylonglegs 04:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Who are Chemsearch, Ltd? Anybody guess? The clue is in the location. Dalmation55 10:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I just realised that the recent vandalsim has been catastrophic. The usual "link farming" for allaboutpoppers.com, removal of any critical websites, and the planting of Pac West brand names. This needs to be sorted, as this is simply an online advert as it stands. Google should delist this site until the perpetrators of this deception are stopped. This will only happen when someone takes some action - the article in the San Fransisco press, identifying this online campaign to promote inhalant abuse, was only a start. This needs to be now fully exposed. Dalmation55 13:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Rush and Locker Room are brand names. They are always planted at the same time as the link to allaboutpoppers.com. This has been happening for a long while; law enforcement calls it "pattern behaviour". Dalmation55 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not controversy. It is a fact that there is a campaign promoting inhalant abuse in online communities. Significantly they also carry a safety message about "purity" ...and a well known brand! Can you guess which one? The article has been cited many times and then disappears. This is typical of the many faces (puppets) and other underhand techniques of the pushers. The fact that they hang around chat rooms and boards, is the equivalent of a pot pusher outside a school gate. History repeating itself, perhaps? There are even cartoons, for God's sake, pushing poppers! Disgusting. Dalmation55 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Sure. Dalmation55 11:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks me_and for the reference edit. Two corrections: 1. The correct PMID is 16288974 for Tran, DC. et al. "Effects of repeated in vivo inhalant nitrite exposure on gene expression in mouse liver and lungs." Nitric Oxide 14(2006) 279-289. "These studies demonstrate that in vivo exposure to inhalant nitrites results in changes in the angiogenesis cascade." "We examined the effects of multiple repeated in vivo nitrite exposure on the hepatic and pulmonary expression of a selected panel of genes related to angiogenesis and cancer, using gene microarrays." Research on KS and the mechanisms of tumor growth continue to be explored.
2. The correct PMID is 16414306 and the correct author spelling is Mbulaiteye SM, et al. "Risk factors for human herpesvirus 8 seropositivity in the AIDS Cancer Cohort Study. In analyses adjusted for smoking and drinking, HHV-8 seropositivity was positively associated with nitrate inhalant use (OR=1.7;95% CI 1.3-2.3) among men who have sex with men. Research on KS and HHV-8(also known as KSHV) and the factors that effect them continues.
References to KS need to include some kind of statement and reference that researchers continue to explore KS risk factors. Having the KS virus(HHV-8 or KSHV) does not usually result in KS. Other publications finding popper use related to HHV-8:
Casper, Corey et al. "HIV serodiscordant sex partners and the prevalence of HHV-8 infection among HIV negative men who have sex with men: baseline data from the EXPLORE study." Sexually Transmitted Infections 2006: Vol 82 Issue 3: 229-235.
Casper, Corey et al. "Correlates of prevalent and incident KS-associated herpesvirus infection in men who have sex with men." Journal of Infectious Diseases 2002 April 1;185(7):990-993. PMID 11920325.
Pauk, et al. : Mucosal shedding of human herpesvirus 8 in men." New England Journal of Medicine; 2000 Nov 9; 343(19):1369-77. PMID 11070101.
Hankwilson 16:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 16:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Dalmation55: you seem to be the only person on here who is so consistently angry about Pac West and Rush. Whenever someone posts anything that mentions these names, you go ballistic.
For example, you went off on "Me_and" when he posted Rush and Locker Room as generic names for poppers. If you go to the U. S. Government's sites, and if you read the many news articles that have been published over the decades about these products it's clear that Rush and Locker Room are almost always used synonymously with poppers. Are those people "planting" the names, too?
You've also yelled at him for including http://www.allaboutpoppers.com/. Yet that site is full of links to all kinds of credible information and background. It's not a site trying to sell poppers to anyone.
You've thrown tantrums and threatened people. Screamed and yelled. That kind of behavior is consistent with a personal vendetta. Is there anything to the earlier post that claimed you were selling counterfeit Rush and got caught?
The only 'pattern' I can see in this article is your never-ending effort to smear anyone who tries to improve this article. "Me_and" is just the most recent example. Look back at the history of this article. Your fingerprints, under different screen names, are on nearly all the anti-Pac West and anti-Rush tantrums in this article.
You should take a break and lighten up on 'me_and' and let people improve this article. Diamonddriller29 00:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Pac West are the guys that are responsible for the online campaign promoting inhalant abuse. They use kids cartoons, message boards, and a whole host of tactics to try to sell the message that poppers are a harmless aphrodisiac with a long history. That's my problem. They are a menace to public health, and are trying to introduce poppers to a new generation of victims.
Pac West are behind allaboutpoppers.com. That is a fact. If you look back over the history of this page - are you new here? - then you will realise that Diderot was the first to identify what the boys from Indiana were up to.
It's weird that you can't understand that someone would be concerned about pushers selling dangerous chemicals? You don't get that, then? Dalmation55 09:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
It only makes sense to you as there is nothing else in your life apart from pushing chemicals and picking fights. You are notorious for it apparently. An ex employee of Pac West has already spoken online about the machinations and rivalry in your organisation. This is the source of most of what we know about the major league popper pusher in the USA.
I suspect (given your known propensity for planting links to that Virusmyth site) that you are just another of a long history of puppets on this page. Strange how many faces pop by with the same message! Who would have thought so many "different" people actually gave a damn. Clearly poppers is something that a whole bunch of people care passionately about.
Anyway, you say: " So, where's the harm? Where's the public health menace you claim exists?" So, why not stop selling them as "room dedoouriser"? Stop fiddling with the chemistry to outwit law enforcement? Why were poppers outlawed in the first place? A Republican conspiracy against the gay community! That was one of your weaker arguments!
What about poppers and viagra? You are planting messages all over the net about poppers being a safe aphrodisiac. You are luring young gay men into chemical abuse. Can't you see what you are doing? Look in a mirror. How you sleep at night is beyond me. Put up another monument, sponsor another book, hug another celebrity. Nothing changes the fact of what you are. Dalmation55 10:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
According to research released in the Lancet 24 March 2007, both alcohol and smoking are more dangerous than many illicit drugs including marijuana and poppers. Alcohol and tobacco were in the top 10 while weed was 11th and poppers were 19th out of 20.
The researchers were from two different groups and considered experts in their fields. These included law enforcement, chemists, pharmacologists and addiction specialists in the Royal Society of Psychiatrists.
In the UK a system that has evolved over nearly a century regulates illicit drugs according to a classification system that aims to relate to the actual harms and risks of each drug that's been used by a small group of experts, and which has been described as a "rational scale for assessing the harm of drugs of misuse".
Using a rational scale for assessing the genuine degree of harm from misusing poppers might be a better way to evaluate them, as opposed to relying on conflicting studies related to AIDS which after twenty five years have not proven poppers to be either significantly dangerous or totally harmless. The bottom line seems to be that they are neither, and that they are basically at the bottom of any list of potentially harmful compounds. NancyDowden 02:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the Lancet reference. At least poppers made the list of drugs. I would characterize the ratings as a survey of researchers...as opposed to "research". And some questions about the "experts" and their "expertise". I dont take it for granted that the surveyed experts have expertise about poppers. If they had no or limited info about poppers then the 19th ranking is not surprising.
Too often in the past poppers have not been listed as a "drug". In 1999, Gay Men's Health Crisis in New York, a pioneering AIDS community based organization, surveyed 7000+ men who have sex with men and one question asked was "what drugs do you use with sex?" Poppers was not listed as a possible choice. This omission of poppers as a gay sex drug was repeated in a pamphlet "Sex and Drugs" produced in California targeted to gay men. The cover listed the various recreational drugs used by gay men( and others). Poppers was missing. And the pamphlet was produced by gay men.
As for the Lancet report, some questions about the UK "expert" raters: 1.Expertise on poppers? 2. Expertise on HIV/AIDS and substance use as a cofactor for HIV transmission and seroconversion? 3.Expertise on sexual and drug using behaviors of men who have sex with men? 4.Awareness of the published research on poppers/nitrite inhalants? 5. Attitudes towards men who have sex with men? how are gay men valued by these experts?
Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, even some of the HIV researchers and service providers(prevention workers and doctors) are unaware of the published research about poppers.There is an information overload problem in the HIV field. And specialization has resulted in narrowing of focus and lack of exposure to some info areas.
When men who have sex with men are asked what drugs they use, some do not list poppers.However,if they are subsequently asked if they use poppers, they acknowledge using poppers.They did not consider poppers a drug. Researchers adjusted to this "poppers aren't drugs" phenomenon by probing responders with the follow up question to get realistic data about popper use. I learned this as a member of the UCSF Community Advisory Board. Hankwilson 18:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 18:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Wilson, can you be more specific about the variety of reasons why you say HIV researchers and service providers are unaware of research on poppers?
It strikes me as odd that prominent researchers and local HIV/AIDS service providers would not know that poppers are so profoundly dangerous and related to HIV/AIDS. Doug Stephen 14:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree. Why is it that Wilson dismisses current research showing poppers to be innocuous at worst and not related to unprotected sex among gay men, in favor of old and outdated studies that have been show to be seriously flawed and invalid?
Wilson posted that the Lancet study published this weekend, which put poppers at the bottom of a list of potentially harmful items topped by alcohol and smoking, is inferior and invalid because the experts who conducted the research were, according to Wilson, unaware of published research about poppers which he claims proves them harmful. The Lancet research was not about HIV/AIDS and the experts who did the research were looking at poppers from a different perspective, one around other public health issues -- not HIV/AIDS.
But when it comes to HIV/AIDS, according to current research, 51% of HIV-positive men in a large Australian study used poppers and they found that there was no link between use of poppers and unprotected sex.
In a reference to Wilson's old studies, the Australians made a point of saying that earlier studies looking at the relationship between recreational drug use and sexual risk taking have produced conflicting results. And, more importantly when considering Wilson's outdated studies -- they also said that although some studies, often conducted in the US, have found a link between the use of specific illicit drugs and unprotected anal sex, these findings have not been supported by other studies.
This is reported in AIDS Map, a well known HIV/AIDS outfit, referred to by most if not all HIV/AIDS doctors, researchers and most AIDS Service Providers. It just strikes me as unlikely that Wilson's claim that the HIV community is not aware of the data on poppers is a valid claim. Instead, I would agree that it's more likely that the HIV/AIDS community does not consider poppers to be a significant issue, because they actually are aware of the current research and also aware that the studies Wilson keeps using to make his point, are almost all outdated or were long ago shown to be seriously flawed and invalid. It looks more like they've essentially dismissed him and his apparently outdated theories.
This might help to explain the zealotry for continuing to beat a dead horse. NancyDowden 16:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Doug Stephen: Some possibilities of why HIV experts may ignore poppers....some starting the ignoring phenomenon way back in 1983., others at various times over the next 2 decades...but poppers still turn up in research as significant risk factors for unsafe sex, seroconversion, and some relationship to KS...still to be defined. 1.Some experience an information overload in the HIV field. 2.Much of the research on poppers being immunosuppressive has been published in specialty journals as opposed to the hiv journals. 3.Some dismissed poppers having a role in hiv infection when AIDS was discovered.Initially, poppers were suspected of causing AIDS or KS 4.Others discounted poppers when the 1983 CDC mice study found poppers to not be immunosuppressive. Subsequent mice studies all found immunosuppression. The dosage levels of the mice studies are an issue of contention. But it should be noted that even in the 1983 CDC study there was a reference that there was thymic atrophy in some of the mice exposed to the higher doses...the thymus is important in the immune system generating t cells. This was one clue that poppers could be immunosuppressive at higher doses. 5. Some dismissed the role of poppers in KS when the KSHV or HHV-8 was discovered. It needs to be considered that positivity for HHV-8 is not sufficient by itself to manifest KS. Most people with HHV-8 infection do not progress to KS. 6. There has been and continues to be a pro poppers promotion campaign...similarities to the cigarette industry lying to consumers for decades....and initially getting away with it. 7.Duesberg's focus on poppers and his denialist position has also given momentum to HIV experts shying away from consideration of poppers. 8. The variability in research instruments, questions(frequency, quantity, vs simple ever used, never used contributed to conflicting results....and in some cases the lack of questions. 9. Straight researchers who have never used poppers not understanding their effects.Not factoring in the compound risk that poppers present. Its immunosuppression PLUS disinhibition...both a behavior effect as well as physiological increased susceptibility.10. I have gotten positive feedback from HIV doctors, and researchers who indicated that they were not aware of the published studies. also HIV+/PWAs and hiv- gay men have expressed both interest and gratitude. I expose blown up bibliographies in booths at street fairs in San Francisco. People give me feedback with folks all over the map on the issue/and knowledge of poppers. My goal and behavior has been to publicize the research.I prefer that the research speaks for itself.
Hankwilson 00:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson
Hankwilson
00:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Canadian researchers call for rapid needs assessments of MSM's awareness of HIV-related risks associated with use of poppers. They report a "disturbingling high prevalence of popper use of young MSM during a period of rapidly increasing HIV incidence in British Columbia. Our results, together with those from previous studies, suggest nitrite inhalant use by MSM is associated with a synergy among risks for HIV seroconversion. Use of poppers is associated with an increased likelihood of engaging in anal intercourse with an infected partner and in addition, a higher probability of infection following each such exposure." They conclude:"Efforts to reduce the use of nitrite inhalants during sexual encounters should be considered a high-priority HIV prevention strategy for MSM." from BMC Public Health 2007,7:35. article URL: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/7/35. PMID 17362516. Hankwilson 23:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 23:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Please, don't keep inserting a blog into the external links. Blogs are generally considered inappropriate per Wikipedia's guideline on external links. If you think this is a unique situation where we should disregard the guideline, please explain why here instead of reinserting it. MastCell Talk 18:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This recent 2007 study from a leading AIDS research publication should be reinstated in the reference section and included as citation evidence for the controversial contention that popper use increases the risk for HIV infection. PMID 17325605 clearly indicates this. That the specific word "nitrite" is not included is immaterial because "popper" is both in the title and in the summary several times.The removal of this study raises doubts about the neutrality of the editor who removed it. Hankwilson 17:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 17:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I would agree that the study Hank Wilson mentions above should be referenced. However, it's clear that unprotected receptive anal intercourse and multiple partners seems to be the most significant variables, not poppers.
But more importantly, where is the NPV in this article? It seems that studies which counter the ones Hank Wilson posts here are being removed. For example, the large study that was just published by Prestage G, out of Australia, which found no link between poppers and unsafe sex, has been deleted again.
I'd suggest to Hank Wilson that such deletions similarly raise doubts about the neutrality of the editors who removed these references. In other words, when Hank Wilson or his associates remove references to articles that they do not agree with, it raises serious questions about the neutrality of their posts here. 38.136.6.221 23:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Published articles about poppers, or related to popper use, from scientific journals should be included. Hankwilson 03:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 03:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's an idea... instead of edit-warring over the external links (of which few, if any, meet Wikipedia's guidelines for inclusion), how about spending that time improving the article itself, which is in pretty woeful shape? Our goal here is really supposed to be improving the encyclopedia article, not making sure our pet external link gets included. MastCell Talk 16:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
If the edit wars and personal attacks can come to an end, this article can be improved. Most people just want credible information so they can make up their own mind about the subject. They are not interested in personal vendettas or passionate arguments.
At the end of the day, it seems these nitrites are neither the killer some claim, nor totally harmless as others claim.
With continual use tolerance seems to occur after about two or three weeks, but a similar period of abstinence seems to restore sensitivity. There is no evidence of physical or psychological dependence or any longer term damage from sniffing nitrites.
Probably the biggest controversy surrounding nitrites has been the claim that they are implicated in the onset of Kaposi's sarcoma (KS) in HIV positive gay men. This was first identified in the early 1980's when it was revealed that all the original AIDS cases who manifested KS had also been users of nitrites. Poppers were implicated in two ways; firstly because some of the metabolised by-products of nitrites have been shown to be carcinogenic in the lab and secondly because nitrites were capable of somewhat depressing the immune systems of those using them when compared to non-users. Subsequent research has disproved the KS-nitrite theory.
The numerous references to studies that are posted here in an attempt to prove poppers are inherently dangerous serve mainly to emphasize that there is a perennial problem of extrapolating the results of laboratory studies on animals to humans who apart from being different physiologically, do not use drugs in the way they are given to animals in laboratory settings. There's also the problem that many of the references posted here have been to studies which appear to have had significant protocol problems, and may not even be valid.
Even so, this does leave open the question of the effect of nitrites on the immune system. Although there are studies showing that nitrites act upon the human immune system, the question of whether this immunosuppression is sufficient to cite nitrites as a genuine co-factor in AIDS remains unresolved. Doug Stephen 20:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
"so they can make up their own mind about the subject"
Does Wikipedia Foundation also allow promotion of other illegal drugs? The authorities have already banned the product at State and Fed level. There are NO countries in the world where poppers are legal Dalmation55 10:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
You are wrong. Inhalants (poppers) are ILLEGAL. They exist in some common law jurisdictions which have currently not oulawed their sale. Denmark banned them in a matter of days, following a case of blindness attributed to poppers use. No European country allows the sale of poppers. Japan has recently outlawed them.
If you wish to allow your pages (I note you say "we) to be used to promote the use of inhalants - say so. Does Wikipedia Foundation also allow the Cali Cartel to present the "positive side" of cocaine? Governments across the world have rightly outlawed inhalant abuse - the poppers industry, and now Wikipedia seem intent on promoting an alternative perspective for room deodouriser products. What about glue sniffing? Does the glue industry claim that glue sniffing has a positive side? Of course not! If they did so there would be lawsuits galore. How do the poppers pushers get away with it then? With Wikipedia's help.
The poppers industry have in fact long conspired to outwit enforcement by re labeling this illegal inhalant. If you wish to allow the industry to spin out their "allaboutpoppers" / Pac West propoganda then feel free - it is a disgraceful abuse of the noble aims of the founder.
Dalmation55 10:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the References section is overly large and rather gangly. A lot of it is nothing more than listcruft at this point considering many of the items listed are not citations for the main body of the article. Keep in mind Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I think the list is unlimited and/or unmaintainable (are we to list every report or article we come across?). Also, the list is unencyclopaedic, i.e. it would not be expected to be included in an encyclopaedia. -- John T. Folden 22:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
This is why the responsible people at Wikipedia should be aware of what is going on at this page:
CUMBRIAN schoolkids have been snorting the sex drug poppers in the playground.
One youngster claimed he went into a shop and bought a bottle of amyl nitrate while still wearing his uniform, according to police.
Experts warn the recreational drug could potentially kill.
It is illegal to enter a sex shop under the age of 18 and although poppers are legal to possess, it can still be illegal to supply them.
In South Cumbria, licensing officer PC Glenn Myerscough and schools liaison officer PC Mike Brown, have visited shops and warned them about selling poppers to youngsters.
They have also enlisted the expertise of Paul Brown, director of Cumbria Alcohol and Drug Alcohol Service.
Mr Brown said: “Because young people can get intoxicated very quickly they can easily get themselves in situations that are very dangerous.
"Because young people usually find secluded areas to use these drugs they may not be easy to find if left abandoned by their friends who do not want to get into trouble if something goes wrong."
Barrow drug squad boss, Detective Sergeant Mike Unwin, said: "Poppers are not currently controlled by the Misuse of Drugs Act. However, they can have unpleasant side effects such as causing headaches, dizziness and nausea.
"They can cause rashes and eye problems and they are poisonous if swallowed. Although poppers are sold in sex shops, they can actually cause problems with getting an erection."
A spokesman for the adult only Private Shop, Dalkeith Street, Barrow, said: “We have a strict over-21 policy not even 18. The problem is we do check their age and if they don’t have identification then we won’t serve them. We also now write down the details of anyone who looks under age who comes in.
"The problem we have is it’s often the adults that buy it and it’s passed down."
No one was available for comment from Barrow’s other adult shop, Simply Pleasure.Com, which is on the same street.
View this story and the latest newspaper in full digital reproduction, just like the printed copy at www.whitehaven-news.co.uk/digitalcopy Dalmation55 10:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
No. It is very common apparently:
Today, poppers abuse is widespread among British youngsters -- and some take the first sniff at an early age indeed. In Bedfordshire, for example, police recently reported that teachers found school children inhaling "Rush" during a class break. In Dewsbury meanwhile, police acting on a tip off by a local child discovered a hideaway where youngsters grouped up to inhale gas and poppers. Sgt Darren Brown later said the hideaway, known as a "gas pit", was just one of several dotted around the town centre, an area which has become known as the place to come and buy poppers. Dalmation55 10:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Poppers are a chemical inhalant - they are not an aphrodisiac. The euphoric effects from inhaling these fumes is similar to other forms of abuse. One poppers manufacturer even uses cartoons to sell their chemicals! They are aiming the product at the youth market - it is no surprise that they are appearing on the playground. Dalmation55 10:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Published research in scientific journals should not be dismissed. The statement that "any damage to the immune system is undone in a few days" is misleading in the context of the published research finding that popper use increases risk for HIV infection. Published research finds that popper use increases risk for HIV infection. While the immune system may rebound and recover after a few days, HIV infection remains....certainly a challenge not to be dismissed...at least with the current anti viral drugs that manage HIV infection, but do not cure it.
Whether poppers are immunosuppressive continues to be controversial and is an important issue in the context of the AIDS epidemic. This controversy goes back to the beginning of the AIDS epidemic and pro and con perspectives articulated, with references cited so that readers can come to their own conclusion. Hankwilson 19:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 19:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
PMID 1346559 : Seage GR et al. : The relationship between nitrite inhalants, unprotected receptive anal intercourse, and the risk of human immunodeficiency virus infection. Am J Epidemiology 1992, 135:1-11.
PMID 16505748 : Brewer DD et al. : Unsafe sexual behaviour and correlates of risk in a probability sample of men who have sex with men in the era of highly active antiretroviral therapy. Sex Transm Dis 2006, 33(4):250-5.
PMID 6562964 : Ostrow DG et al. : A case-control study of human immunodeficiency virus type 1 seroconversion and risk-related behaviours in the Chicago MACS/CCS Cohort, 1985-1992. Am J Epidemiology 1995, 142:875-883.
PMID 9584015 : Chesney MA et al. : Histories of substance use and risk behavior: precursors to HIV seroconversion in homosexual men. Am J Public Health 1998, 88(1):113-6.
PMID 15851918 : Buchbinder S et al. : Sexual risk, nitrite inhalant use, and lack of circumcision associated with HIV seroconversion in men who have sex with men in the United States. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr 2005, 39(1):82-9.
PMID 15738319 : Colfax G et al. : Longitudinal patterns of methamphetamine, popper(amyl nitrite), and cocaine use and high-risk sexual behavior among a cohort of San Francisco men who have sex with men. J Urban Health. 2005,82(Suppl 1):i62-70.
PMID 17362516 : Lampinen TM et al.: Nitrite inhalant use among young gay and bisexual men in Vancouver during a period of increasing HIV incidence. BMC Public Health 2007,7:35 article URL http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/7/35.
PMID 17002993 : Drumright LN et al.: Club drugs as causal risk factors for HIV acquisition among men who have sex with men: A review. Substance Use and Misuse 2006, 41:1551-1601.
PMID 16255638 : Choi KH et al.: Substance use, substance choice, and unprotected anal intercourse among young Asian American and Pacific Islander men who have sex with men. AIDS Educ Prev. 2005, 5:418-29.
PMID 15838193 : Purcell DW et al.: Illicit substance use, sexual risk, and HIV-positive gay and bisexual men:differences by serostatus of casual partners. AIDS 2005, Suppl 1:S37-47.
Each of these published research articles should be included in the reference section corroborating the concern that popper use is a significant risk factor for unsafe sex and HIV seroconversion.
more to come. Hankwilson 19:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 19:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the references section is a mess, and would favor removing all of the "general reading" and leaving only the references that are actually cited in the article. If there is material in the removed references that would improve the article, let's work it in using article text with a citation - that's much more useful than a laundry list of related reading. As far as NPOV, that will require discussing each controversial section here and coming to a consensus everyone can live with. I've found the most useful approach is to focus on very specific content issues (i.e. ideally someone proposes wording and others suggest adjustments to it). MastCell Talk 23:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if by removing all the 'general reading' from the References section it may set off another edit war between the two camps, each whom seem dead-set on making sure their point of view is represented.
Perhaps, in fairness and NPOV, a new section called "External Links" or "External Reading" could be used to provide a home for the material that is being removed form the "References" section. Munatobe7 01:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The recent elimination of any reference to poppers being a risk factor in HIV infection is a blatant example of vandalism. Dozens of published research articles, with PMID numbers included, were eliminated from the reference section. Attempts to link the references to the article have been repeatedly sabotaged by tag team tactics, apparently from those who cannot let the controversy even be referenced, let alone published research findings from major AIDS journals. Unfortunate for those who would be interested in the popper/HIV connection and/or controversy. The controversy does exist. It should be referenced. The poppers industry does exist. It's viewpoint should be included but not result in the elimination of information supported by dozens of published research articles. Hankwilson 02:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 02:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
In being
bold and making some changes to the 'Health Issues' section I'm hoping to avoid abuse by following the guidelines in the "This Topic contains controversial issues" notice at the top of the Discussion page.
I've thoroughly read the discussion-page dialogue and have cited reputable sources supporting the information contained in the edit. Also I'm trying to "carefully describe the reasons" for the edit.
Setting aside the passionate arguments and sometimes heated rhetoric in the discussion-page, the body of data points to a general consensus that inhaling nitrites is not significantly harmful nor is it wide spread through society. [15] </ref [16] [17] [18] [19]
The concern about poppers and a possible relationship to AIDS creates the most rhetoric in this article and underlies passionate exchanges throughout the discussion-page. I hope any debates over the general consensus of thought about poppers can be on a high note and not degenerate to the silliness and personal attacks seen in the past. Munatobe7 20:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Sure, I think we should focus on reliable secondary sources like those you mention. In the U.S., there's the National Institute on Drug Abuse, for one (see [20] (slightly out of date), [21], etc). Virusmythpoppersmyth, allaboutpoppers, etc are not encyclopedic sources. MastCell Talk 22:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
{{cite web | Name of the template url=http://www.virusmythpoppersmyth.org/cpsc_report_1983/ | URL of the source title=Briefing Package on Petition HP82-1 | Title of the source accessdate=2007-05-12 | Date the source was last checked last=McNamara | Author name, you can also first=A. Moira | use Author= instead of Last= & First= year=1983 | Date of writing/publication month=July | If the full date is available, use date=[[yyyy-mm-dd]] format=Reprint | This could be, for example, PDF, or similar publisher=[[Consumer Product Safety Commission|U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission]] I've wikilinked the publisher so that people can find out more about the source }}
A credible current secondary source which does cite a concern about popper use increasing the risk of HIV transmission is the FDA. See 2006 FDA letter, this articles reference #3,:including this statement:" FDA recognizes that the abuse of amyl nitrite inhalant and other poppers is a serious health issue, particularly for the segment of homosexual male population that continues to use them. There are reports in the literature that associate the use of nitrite inhalants with immunosuppression, increased risk of HIV transmission, and Kaposi's sarcoma."
The current health risks section fails to reference the accumulating published research which finds popper use a significant risk factor increasing HIV transmission and risky sexual behavior. See previous citations with PMID numbers for easy reference.
Again, this is a major health issue for gays and men who have sex with men, the major consumers of poppers.
Again, there should be a statement that there is a controversy and the divergent positions should be stated for the reader to consider. I will be adding these changes but am noticing for constructive feedback in advance Hankwilson 21:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 21:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a popper industry and it has a message. There are researchers and they have a message. I support inclusion of both positions with attribution to facilitate analysis. 71.138.80.137 04:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson 71.138.80.137 04:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Hank Wilson:
1) Are you currently or have you ever been a petitioner to the FDA or any other government agency on the subject of poppers or nitrites?
2) Have you ever collaborated with any petitioner to any government agency on poppers or nitrites?
3) Are you an author of any books or publications on poppers or nitrites in addition to 'Death Rush'?
4) Are you currently or have you ever collaborated with any researchers on the subject of poppers or nitrites?
5) Have you ever or are you currently collaborating in any way with any popper sellers or manufacturers?
The current wording says "it has been suggested". This should be changed to "Research has demonstrated that poppers are immunosuppressive." It is suggested that the demonstrated immunosuppression is significant increasing susceptibility to HIV infection. Issues of quantity of popper use and frequency of popper use may be considerations effecting the susceptibility to HIV infection.Research is ongoing to understand the significance of the immunosuppression.
To refer to the immunosuppression research is to state reality. The research exists. To judge it,critique its limitations, characterise it, raises points of view issues but these can be included in the context of acknowledging that there is controversy on interpretation of the research.Failure to acknowledge the research is not neutral or objective. Hankwilson 20:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 20:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
www.allaboutpoppers.com is a poppers industry website. Google fails to list that website in a google search re: "poppers" for this reason. It does not pass the neutral point of view test and it should not be listed as a credible reference.Can more credible references replace existing references? Hankwilson 20:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)Hankwilson Hankwilson 20:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
One correction: according to Wikipedia:Reliable sources, secondary sources are actually preferred, if (and this is the big "if") they are reliable secondary sources according to the criteria set forth there. In other words, FDA, CDC, Merck manual, etc are reliable secondary sources. Allaboutpoppers.com and virusmythpoppers.com are not. Primary sources are also useful, and we should include a number of them, but the problem is that when there's conflicting data (as there is here), we need to avoid synthesizing it ourselves (see WP:SYN) and saying "These studies clearly indicate that poppers are (or are not) immunosuppressive." Relying solely on primary sources also leaves us open to selective citation, since there are conflicting studies out there. Instead, we should rely on syntheses published by reliable secondary sources. Does that make sense? MastCell Talk 15:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
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