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There is a quite lengthy article on no: about Bergoglio that can be translated, instead of mendeling with the copyright article. no:Jorge Beroglio Profoss 22:42, 2 April 2005 (UTC)
I expect lots of edit warring here, so this is a request to editors to take issues to the talk page before making controversial edits to the article. Andrew 327 19:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
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He was transferred in 1980 to become the rector of the seminary in San Miguel where he had studied. Tonylatt ( talk) 19:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
It reads he is the first Pope born in the Americas but then says he was born in India. Can we clarify / correct that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.232.4 ( talk) 19:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.84.197 ( talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
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Liberation theology Bergoglio is an accomplished theologian who distanced himself from liberation theology early in his career. He is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement. [edit]Abortion and euthanasia Cardinal Bergoglio has invited his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.[3] [edit]Homosexuality He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, though he teaches the importance of respecting individuals who are gay. He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by gays and lesbians is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".[4] [edit]Church and AIDS Main article: Roman Catholic Church and AIDS His doctrinal orthodoxy emphasizes Christ's mandate to love: he is well remembered for his 2001 visit to a hospice, in which he washed and kissed the feet of twelve AIDS patients. [edit]Social justice He consistently preaches a message of compassion towards the poor, but somewho? observers would like him to place a greater emphasis on issues of social justice. Rather than articulating positions on matters of political economy, Bergoglio prefers to emphasize spirituality and holiness, believing that this will naturally lead to greater concern for the suffering of the poor. He has, however, voiced support for social programs, and publicly challenged free-market policies. [edit]Relations with the Argentine government See also: Dirty War On April 15, 2005, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the junta in 1976 to kidnap two Jesuit priests, whom he, as superior of the Society of Jesus of Argentina in 1976, had asked to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow. Bergoglio's spokesman has flatly denied the allegations. No evidence was presented linking the cardinal to this crime.[5] [edit] Mmhmbop ( talk) 19:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The following edit should be made: "conformation" should be "confirmation" and "Papem" should be "Papam" in the cite for the reason for "Francis". Collect ( talk) 19:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Reference ^ Habemus Papam! Cardinal Bergolio Elected Pope - Fracis I (Archived at WebCite) needs "Fracis" edited to "Francis". ( talk) 22:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The references section is doubled! Teemeah 편지 (letter) 19:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Have you verified that the account @JMBergoglio truly belongs to him? There are several twits in that account that would lead to believe it's a fake, and it's been used as the first reference in the article. forgot to sign EOZyo ( мѕğ) 20:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
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During a May 2010 speech in Argentina regarding the poor, he directed his message to the wealthy by saying "You avoid taking into account the poor. We have no right to duck-down, to lower the arms carried by those in despair. We must reclaim the memory of our country who has a mother, recover the memory of our Mother"
Raphistorian ( talk) 20:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
ref goes to:
[1]
please don't use refs in talk pages, talk pages don't have reflists, so refs won't be visible...
does los sufficientes refer to the rich? google translate just says says sufficient, and makes zero sense..
"sufficient", he warned, "do not take into account the poor"
is what google says it means. I speak german and english, my knowledge of spanish is almost nonexistent, so if anyone here knows spanish, the original is:
El obispo primado argentino, cardenal Jorge Bergoglio, volvió hoy a criticar a "los suficientes" que, advirtió, "no tienen en cuenta a los más pobres" y exhortó a pedirle a la Virgen de Luján que "cuide a nuestra patria, en particular a aquellos que son los más olvidados". Jorge Bergoglio, volvió hoy a criticar a "los suficientes" que, advirtió, "no tienen en cuenta a los más pobres" y exhortó a pedirle a la Virgen de Luján que "cuide a nuestra patria, en particular a aquellos que son los más olvidados".
I can't say yes or no to the request if I don't know what it is saying. Aunva6 ( talk) 21:34, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Since this is a page about a new Pope, I would strongly encourage the editors to check for grammar and spelling before adding anything. Thank you very much. 63.3.2.130 ( talk)
It really doesn't belong in the lead...., but where? -- j⚛e decker talk 21:10, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
You can see it in the most recent edits of the offending user here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.180.76.19 S/he seems to have a history of various vandalism/blanking. Not sure what the protocol is for something like this as I stopped editing for a few years during university, but I thought I should bring it to attention. Davidmhaley ( talk) 21:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia servers use between yesterday and today. From 50,000 to 70,000 requests per second with habemus papam. emijrp ( talk) 22:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Francis is not the first jesuit elected as pope, to my knowledge. At least one predecessor ( Leo_XIII#Early_life) was a member of the jesuit order.
I suggest removal of the recently-added "connection to prophecy" section. The marginal news sources given are not enough to warrant inclusion of this tangentially-related superstition into this biography. -- Allen ( talk) 22:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I added that content because it is of great interest to the public- you wouldn't believe how many stores I have seen in the last weeks about the prophecy of the popes (which by the way has its own very long article so it can't be that marginal. As for the sources- I'd think a book, news stories, blog entries, and material from the catholic encyclopedia should be enough sources for a short section on the prophetic connections. I'll post this properly sourced section again if it is deleted. I will however if given time find more sources as I am certain larger news sites will pic up the scoop. Twarwick666 ( talk) 23:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
"Of interest to people" isn't necessarily notable, regardless of how well it is sourced. The prophecy is not really accepted among mainstream Catholics, so I question its relevance. But even if the section as a whole is appropriate, I STRONGLY question the inclusion of several sentences about the Horn book. How is it even remotely relevant to the topic or notable? That book may have predicted that Benedict would step down, but the prophecy of the popes (the actual subject of that section) most certainly did not. ( TPS Report ( talk) 23:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC))
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"Francis is the first Jesuit and the first Latin American to be elected Pope."
He is the first pope from the Americas full stop. The entire western hemisphere. I don't know why it needs to be narrowed down to Latin America.
Should be: "Francis is the first Jesuit and the first from the Americas to be elected Pope." -- 86.40.200.32 ( talk) 22:59, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
idk why it was changed. i changed it back. Aunva6 ( talk) 23:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This section should be either removed or severely trimmed.
To sum it up, this section has no relevance to the topic of the article at all. Str1977 (talk) 23:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Agreed that the prophecy stuff should go. A discussion of how Pope Francis doesn't fit the silly prophecy might belong in the article on the prophecy itself, but not here. Rinne na dTrosc ( talk) 00:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I put a warning on twarrwick666's userpage as he's the author of the blog, and of the edit on the the wiki page. He seemingly doesn't care that it keeps getting removed. Countered ( talk) 01:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Can someone please explain why the sentence regarding the languages Pope Francis speaks has been moved to the 'Papacy' section? Surely this has nothing to do with his position as pope and should be in the summary. Tmaynes ( talk) 00:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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Please unprotect this page as I believe I could contribute positively to this work. Mfribbs ( talk) 00:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Under the "Homosexuality" subsection the last sentence reading "He has also stated that adoption by same-sex couples is a form of discrimination against children." This is unsourced currently but the quote he said is "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God." This can be found here: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal_bergoglio_hits_out_at_same-sex_marriage.
I believe the first sentence under the Homosexuality subheading was written out of context with the cited source 40, Catholic Online: "NEW POPE: Who is this man named Bergoglio?" The sentence in the Wikipedia article states, "Bergoglio has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, including that "men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies must be accepted with respect and compassion." However, Catholic Online states in the opening sentence of the twelvth paragraph, "Among his teachings and stands, he strongly affirms church teaching on the intrinsic immorality of homosexual practices, though he teaches the importance of respecting homosexual persons." Wikipedia article did not specify that Cardinal Bergoglio strongly affirmed church teaching on the INTRINSIC IMMORALITY of homosexual practices.
Thank you.
Brian Glad
I know this goes against the usual way of doing things, but so many editors are adding <ref> tags that it's easier to temporarily add a reflist here than go through each link and try to figure out what it says. This can be removed once the editstorm dies down. Andrew 327 01:24, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
References
Please change the elction date to the 13th of March, not the 14th. It is not yet the 14th in Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.108.94.129 ( talk) 19:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Today is the 13th... Even in Europe. :) -- 91.56.37.184 ( talk) 19:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Date fixed to the 13th Pieism ( talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
its still 13th of march, even in iraq time zone 85.26.186.107 ( talk) 19:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC) Done by other editors. Andrew 327 20:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Francis wasn't elected on 7:06 PM, but 7:06 PM (local time) was the white smoke. This means the votes were already counted, so he was already elected. A native speaker asked to put this in a nice sentence. -- Sanderd17 ( talk) 21:00, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Francis Solanus (The patron saint of Argentina) makes more sense than Francis of Assisi
He may be playing the "sounds like" game though
"For twenty years Francis worked at evangelizing the vast regions of Tucuman (present day northwestern Argentina) and Paraguay. He had a skill for languages and succeeded at learning many of the regions' native tongues in a fairly short period. It is claimed that he could also address tribes of different tongues in one language yet be understood by them all. Being a musician as well, Francis also played the violin frequently for the natives, which helped them relate better to him. He is often depicted playing this instrument."
Spandox ( talk) 19:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Is this actually confirmed? I've heard various reports that it was after Francis Xavier, which would make more sense consider he was the co-founder of the Order of Jesuits. Do we have any confirmation about which man he chose the name for? Morhange ( talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't think this is factual, just speculation, because many people think "of Assisi" when they hear Francis... User:geerlingguy ( talk)
Yes, I think, its Francis of Assisi and not Francis Xavier... I just followed the discussions of the specialists and highest member of Catholic Church with live broadcasting on German TV.... and they all referred to the Franciscan Order. One of the speakers was a journalist of Vatikan Radio/TV and she same referred to... User:ElJay_Arem
Both Francis Xavier and Francis of Assisi were great Saints of profound secular importance as well It probably doesn't matter if he ever claims which St. Francis. Both were giants in the eyes of the faithful, with tremendous legacies, including huge contribution to secular learning, as well as to the development of the faithful in difficult times.
Either would be beacons for the 21st century and worthy models for the Bishop of Rome.
From what we have heard of his life, it is likely he knows and prays to both of them, as both seem to have had obvious influence in his character.
DrKC MD ( talk) 20:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
"Vatican spokesmen" such as the Rev. Rosica don't actually speak with any particular authority. The Vatican has made no official statement on the inspiration for the choice of name, which is much more likely to be Francis Xavier than Francis of Assisi. Bergoglio's movements over the next day or two may give an indication, and there may be an official announcement. But until then I don't think we should be stating outright that the name is in honour of Francis of Assisi. Nestor.mcnab ( talk) 09:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Article says he took the name of St. Francis of Assisi. I believe that but need a citation (that I can read). Otherwise, might not St. Francis Xavier, cofounder of Jesuits, seem a reasonable assumption also? -- Kbh3rd talk 19:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
None of the citations link to anything that says he selected St. Francis after Francis of Assisi. Can this be cited to something that states exactly which St. Francis? Why not the Jesuit St. Francis, after all? Seems like a good guess, Francis of Assisi, but, really are BLPs made of guesses?
If this is confined to registered users, please, to the registered users, stick with facts that you can cite. - 69.225.10.37 ( talk) 19:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
20:04pm GMT The BBC, EWTN and Vatican Radio are all saying that no announcement has yet been made about WHO he has named himself after. there are many possibilities. The guesses of presenters and journalists from big USA TV News broadcasters like the CNN carries no weight. Can I suggest we delete the guesses about his name and wait.
Anruari ( talk) 20:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Its Francis of Assisi and not Francis Xavier... I just followed the discussions of the specialists and highest member of Catholic Church with live broadcasting on German TV.... and they all referred to the Franciscan Order. One of the speakers was a journalist of Vatikan Radio/TV and she same referred to... User:ElJay_Arem
I wouldn't trust anything in the popular press at present, whether it's in Germany, the United States or elsewhere. Much of their so-called reporting on this matter has been a series of rumors and speculation. For all we know, the name "Francis" may be in tribute to both St. Francis of Assisi and St. Francis Xavier. Then again, it might be in tribute to Francis the Talking Mule. Instead of guessing, I recommend waiting for official announcements from the Vatican at their Web site or through the Vatican Information Service. As I write this, the last news release merely states that the Pope-elect has chosen the name "Francis". We'll have the correct answer soon enough. — Quicksilver T @ 02:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
As I said above wxwalsh, that is not official confirmation. Official confirmation would come from Bergoglio himself, the Vatican press office, information service or website. For the time being we need to remove the part of the article where it mentions "in honour of St. Francis of Assisi". It is speculation only at this point. Nestor.mcnab ( talk) 09:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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In the lead paragraph, please expand the following:
Francis is the first pope from outside of Europe in more than a millennium, the first from the Americas, and the first from the Southern Hemisphere.
To this:
Francis is the first pope from outside of Europe in more than a millennium, the first from the Americas, and the first from the Southern Hemisphere or the Western Hemisphere.
Articulant ( talk) 20:10, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Once the flurry of editing dies down, the article should be expanded with biographical details. I suggest:
Does anybody have any details they would like added to the article? Abductive ( reasoning) 20:54, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This article needs a hatnote to Vicar of Christ (novel), because that is where Pope Francis I redirected until the present pope's name was announced and trafic stats show that it is consistently used [2]. Because of the page moving I've had to add it three times, so I'll add a note here so whomever moves it can fix it if it moves again. Thryduulf ( talk) 21:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Article title | Hatnote |
---|---|
Pope Francis | {{redirect|Pope Francis I|the fictional pope in the 1979 Walter Murphy novel|Vicar of Christ (novel)}} |
Pope Francis I | {{for|the fictional pope in the 1979 Walter Murphy novel|Vicar of Christ (novel)}} |
"In 2001, he visited a hospice to kiss and wash the feet of twelve AIDS patients. [1]"
After repeated edit conflicts, I semi-accidentally deleted this from the homosexuality section (Semi- because the editor putting it in also put in the false claim about "gay rights movement" when the actual quote referred specifically to same-sex marriage.) The AIDS patients are probably notable BUT they don't sit well in that section since it is an overlapping but still distinct issue.
Str1977 (talk) 21:34, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
He said this ( from Spanish via Google translate)
The Argentine people will face in the coming weeks, a situation whose outcome may seriously injure the family. This is the same-sex marriage bill......In that sense, Bergoglio said that "identity is at stake and the survival of the family: father, mother and children." "At stake is the lives of so many children who are discriminated against in advance depriving them of human growth that God would be given to a father and a mother. At stake is a direct rejection of God's law, also engraved in our hearts" said.
So, he meant "adoption by same-sex couples". I will change that if you don't object.-- В и к и T 23:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The article says he became a cardinal in 2001. This BBC source says he became a cardinal in 1998. — Tom Morris ( talk) 21:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
±±×—– — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:C0C6:30D0:8855:28B5:B5AB:A5E3 ( talk) 09:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Since it does not seem Pope Francis' writings are translated into English, there seem to be no official English translations of the writings' titles. I'm not sure if others agree, but I was wondering if posting English translations of the titles could be useful. Thus:
These translations are just rough attempts using my knowledge of Spanish. ZajoII ( talk) 01:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I have removed a line from the lead/summary section that was just added. The line stated that some people believed Pope Francis was the last Pope, as per the Prophecy of the Popes. The line I removed did make it clear that it was not a widely accepted fact, and it had a single citation (which referenced a news article). I was a little hesitant to remove it as it was not entirely bad content, but I do believe that it didn't belong in the lead to the article. I think it may have been appropriate if it was added as a new section to an article, and discussed in more detail, with reference to more sources.
Please revert my change if you feel I was wrong in removing that. Blelbach ( talk) 02:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
There's been some edit warring relating to Pope Francis on the Prophecy of the Popes talk page (e.g. relating to additions to that page about the theories that Pope Francis is the prophesied last pope). I don't believe there are as many people watching that page as there are watching this one, so I'd appreciate it if some of the editors here could take a look at Prophecy of the Popes and its talk page. My primary concern is that unreliable sources (e.g. online forums, news media) are being cited as sources there in a way that distorts what appears to be a fringe viewpoint. Blelbach ( talk) 06:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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I wrote a slightly improved lead section with two paragraphs (based on Pope Benedict XVI) since it is the first thing people see when they come here. It didn't even mention Bergoglio's birthplace or anything, and it didn't make for an easy read. Please check it is OK and swap the current one with this.
Francis ( /ˈfrænsɪs/, /ˈfrɑːnsɪs/; Latin: Franciscus [franˈtʃiskus]; born Jorge Mario Bergoglio [a] on 17 December 1936) is current pope of the Catholic Church. He serves as the 266th [1][ref name="guardian"/] pope, having been elected on 13 March 2013. In that role, he is both the leader of the Catholic Church and sovereign ruler of the Vatican City State.
- ^ Pronunciation: Spanish: [ˈxorxe ˈmaɾjo βerˈɣoʎo], Italian: [berˈgoʎʎo].
A native of Buenos Aires, Bergoglio was ordained as a priest in 1969. From 1998 until 2013, he served as the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, and Pope John Paul II made him a cardinal in 2001. Elected as pope in 2013 following his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI's resignation, Bergoglio chose "Francis" as his name. This marked the first time in papal history that this name had been used, and was the first time since Pope Lando's brief 913 reign that a serving pope held a name unused by a predecessor. Francis is both the first Jesuit priest and the first native of the Americas to be elected Pope. He is also the first non- European pope since Syrian-born Pope Gregory III, who died in 741.
I suggest changing the photo to this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/catholicism/8555995062/ Danny — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.87.126.82 ( talk) 03:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Could someone with the administrative rights add the following link (the Hindi language site): http://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AB%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B8 ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esprungo ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I would like to request that the following works by Pope Francis be moved from the Writings section to the Book section in the Bibliography. I am providing the ISBN numbers for the,:
Additionally, two more books may also be included as follows:
Clearly, he is the first pope who was born in the New World, the Southern Hemisphere, etc. I would be careful about saying he is a "non-European pope" though. Clearly, he is 100% Argentinian, but he is also 100% of Italian descent. Just say he is the "first pope not born in Europe" since the Middle Ages or something to that effect.
Also, I wonder if he could be argued to be the first pope with a formal scientific education? He had some kind of technical education in chemistry, I suppose, that doesn't make him a "scientist" in the narrow sense, but it's probably still uncommon for the higher ranks in the church. -- dab (𒁳) 06:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The word Pope needs to be included in the introduction, as this title has now become part of his regnal name.
There have been rulers from the Kingdom of France and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies that used the name 'Francis'. There should be no confusion. - ( 203.211.70.12 ( talk) 07:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC))
it's strange because noone is calling him just "francis" but always "pope francis", the absence of the numeral makes the simple "francis" a bit odd -- SquallLeonhart_ITA ( talk) 14:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The phrase "first non-European pope since the 8th century" in the lede should link to Pope Gregory III so people don't have to look for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.1.233 ( talk) 08:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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As Cardinal he arranged for the faithful access to Latin mass:
http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm
Moon48 ( talk) 09:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Done Vilĉjo ( talk) 17:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The article states he had a lung removed as a teenager. Spanish-language sources (such as this) say it was removed shortly after he became a priest in 1969. This needs to be carefully checked.-- Ipigott ( talk) 10:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The Pope named himself Franciscus after Francis of Assisi as Cardinal Dolan stated] during a conference; the source is in Italina, but I am sure you can easily found something in English. -- Chessstoria (3 s) (All your base are belong to us) 10:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chessstoria ( talk • contribs) You're contradicting yourself: First, you say he took the name after Francis of Assisi; then you say it's after Francis Xavier. Which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjpk6269 ( talk • contribs) 10:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
You're contradicting yourself: First, you say he took the name after Francis of Assisi; then you say it's after Francis Xavier. Which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjpk6269 ( talk • contribs) 10:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Footnote 23 (from the guardian) cites the article to prove a claim that the Guardian article subsequently retracted. The text of the wikipedia article should be amended to reflect the Guardian's 2013 retraction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.4.200.8 ( talk) 11:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
User Scottperry has with intend to defraud introduced "information" that is nowhere to be found in that very clear and easy to read source ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/13/new-pope-thirteen-key-facts) regarding an English fluency that is apparenty inexistent. Must be reverted. 217.81.135.124 ( talk) 12:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
In the discussion of the Pope's positions on poverty and inequality, there is the sentence: During a May 2010 speech in Argentina regarding the poor, he directed his message to the wealthy by saying: "You avoid taking into account the poor. We have no right to duck down, to lower the arms carried by those in despair. . . ." This is an overly literal and incorrect translation of a quote from La Nación. When interpreting or translating, the goal is to accurately convey meaning and ideas, not words, from the source language to the target language. Also, the Wikipedia entry takes from the La Nación article two different quotes and combines them as if they were a single quote. It is inappropriate to treat exact quotations in such a manner. The discussion of the Pope´s comments about the poor should be re-written as follows: During a May 2010 speech in Argentina regarding the poor, he chastised "the comfortable" whom "avoided considering" the poor, saying: "We have no right to look away, to turn down the raised arms of the desperate. . . . " Rodneygriffith ( talk) 13:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)rodneygriffith
This section says nothing about his views, but only cites to an article that says there were no extraordinary form masses in Buenos Aires while he was Bishop. That does not mean he opposes them. This should be moved to the section on his episcopal career, and not in his "views" until we know what his view on Traditionalism is. 209.116.238.162 ( talk) 13:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Pope Francis isn't a Traditional Mass fan, but he gave it a home in Buenos Aires within 48 hours after Summorum Pontificum. 209.116.238.162 ( talk) 19:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC) http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/card-bergoglio-in-2007-after-summorum-pontificum/
"Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture." [1]
Reuters should be a reliable source. The article neither confirms nor denies what happened round the priests arrested and tortured by the junta, it merely cites what an author alleges one of the men said before he died. If Horacio Verbitsky is correct Bergoglio's later identification with poverty could be due to guilt over those two who suffered so much because they continued to visit slums after Bergoglio withdrew protection. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 14:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
All this theorizing about "secret reparation" as the motive for the new pope's regnal name is Original Research. Further, please let me remind you both that "this is not a forum for general discussion about Pope Francis. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article." Thanks. Rinne na dTrosc ( talk) 17:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Would a new section on relations with other religious groups be appropriate. For example, there is an article published by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) -- http://www.jta.org/news/article/2013/03/13/3121966/new-pope-francis-i-is-argentinian-cardinal-jorge-maria-bergoglio -- describing his strong positive connections with the Jewish community, specifically mentioning that he was a strong voice condemning the 1994 bombing in Buenos Aires that took 85 lives. NearTheZoo ( talk) 15:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Could somebody please improve on my translation. In a citation in the 'Relations with the Argentine government' section, near the end of the 'As Provincial' subsection, the headline 'Bergoglio declaró por los sacerdotes desaparecidos' was translated by Google as 'Bergoglio declared missing by priests', and this was used in the citation despite being a clear (and highly pejorative) mistranslation ('desaparecidos' is plural and refers to priests (sacerdotes), not Bergoglio, and 'declaró' is present singular verb ('declares', not 'declared')). I've provisionally changed it to 'Bergoglio testifies about the kidnapped priests', which I am sure is a great deal nearer what the headline says, but I'm not sure it's entirely right, as my Spanish is not very good. First, I don't know whether he was on oath (as 'testify' implies - the article mentions something about the legal immunity of top Church and State officials, so it may just have been a voluntary unsworn deposition). Second, 'por' normally means 'for', so 'for' or 'in favor of' could perhaps be better than 'about' , though 'about' seems to make more sense in this context. Third, 'desaparecidos' means 'disappeared' and normally implies 'dead', but these two priests were once kidnapped and later released, and are neither dead nor missing, so I've said 'kidnapped' (and thought about saying 'formerly kidnapped') but I'm not sure that's the best translation either, especially as it could perhaps refer to 'all the disappeared priests' rather than just these two. Tlhslobus ( talk) 16:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
RE: "to serve as confessor and spiritual director in Córdoba."
We know the name of the city, but it sounds like he was assigned to a religious institution, no? Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 17:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Lead paragraph says he is 79. He's 76 from all other sources. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.153.102.215 (
talk)
17:16, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Done It's been changed to 76.
Andrew
327
22:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest moving the HEALTH section down so it is not the first topic. While important, it hardly seems like it should be the first section, especially since there are no significant health issues to speak of.
Done
Andrew
327
21:37, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
In the quote in the section on homosexuality, there's the following sentence "(that's just it's form)" . I'm pretty sure there ought not to be an apostrophe in the word "its". Nothingbutmeat ( talk) 17:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
A hidden note next to the listing of Italian as one of his languages states that the Wall Street Journal says that he is not fluent in it. However, the source that is used to identify his fluency in French ( http://www.news.va/it/news/briefing-di-padre-lombardi) also lists Italian ("Il Papa - ha detto padre Lombardi - parla lo spagnolo, l'italiano, il tedesco, l'inglese e il francese....", "The Pope - said Father Lombardi - speaks Spanish, Italian, German, English, and French...." using my limited Italian). If the WSJ is enough to disprove his Italian fluency, then that source probably shouldn't be used for French, either. I'm leaving it now for both because it appears to be credible, even without overt mention of fluency. Mapsax ( talk) 17:47, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
This bio in Spanish seems a bit more detailed than most I've seen: El Litoral
Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 18:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
There is a discussion at CfD about Category:Pope Francis. I figured it would be good to notify people here that it exists. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I repaired two of the citations related to this, but they go to a blog: HERE. I'll leave it to others to find better sources or make the appropriate edits. Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 21:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The article described as published in "Humanitas (National Humanities Institute)" http://www.nhinet.org/hum.htm appears to have actually been published in "Humanitas (Pontifical Universidad Catolica de Chile)" http://www.humanitas.cl/web/ 67.208.53.74 ( talk) 22:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC)Terrence Berres
An examination of the List of popes shows that, discounting the special case of John Paul I where he combined the names of his immediate predecessors, Francis is the first brand-new Pope name since Pope Lando took the chair in 913 AD. Might be worth noting somewhere. 70.72.211.35 ( talk) 19:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Additionally notable in that he was the first Pope to do so since all Popes began using names not their own in the 16th century. Lando was merely the latin version of his given name, Landus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.255.99.77 ( talk) 19:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Think we should mention that he is the first Pope to take a completely new name since Lando in 914, John Paul was originally taken by combining the names of the previous 2 Popes as tribute to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.19.20 ( talk) 20:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
John Paul was a new name, it is made of two components but it is a regnal name -- Tefalstar ( talk) 23:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Request to add that Pope Francis is the first pope to choose an unused name since Pope Lando in 913. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pope Francis ( talk • contribs) 22:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Don't forget Pope John Paul I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.205.106.70 ( talk) 23:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
But his name was a combination of 2 previous names so not really an "original name" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.19.20 ( talk) 22:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It could be better to specify that John Paul I is not taken into account because it was stated officially that the name was taken from the two previous popes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.249.68 ( talk) 16:05, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Since his parents are italian it has been discussed if the Pope is European or not. This discussions are gathered here. Jack Bornholm ( talk) 17:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The List of Popes proves that. Anyone who re-submits that false claim should have it autoreverted. Just an FYI. -- JohnDBuell ( talk) 19:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
He's European because he is of 100% Italian descent. He simply wasn't born in Europe. European is more than just a geographical or cultural term, it's also ethno-racial. Christopedia ( talk) 06:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
He is most definately European, his ancestry is from Italy, and he is born in Argentina (a white country), what difference does it make if he is born outside of Europe he is still European in race, it would be like saying Australians aren't white because they weren't born in Europe.-- Collingwood26 ( talk) 23:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
His parents were italian, and so he has the right ( Ius Sanguinis ) to be italian. My question is, is he 1- Considered italian from the time he was born, at least technically, even if he has not requested it. 2- He has the right to be italian, but he must request it. 3- He requested it and holds italian citizenship.
What do you think?
Daniel32708 ( talk) 00:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
— This source ( http://noticabos.org/2013/03/13/para-los-italianos-el-nuevo-papa-es-italiano/), in spanish, claims that italian law consideres people its citizens from the time they are born if they are born from italian citizens. Daniel32708 ( talk) 00:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Why Double-Nationality?? Simple, is more easy to travel ;)--
186.62.185.205 (
talk)
03:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
His mother born in Buenos Aires, only you need watch the footnotes of the article...--
186.62.185.205 (
talk)
23:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
In the minutes before editing began in earnest on this page, I noticed a great deal more topics under the heading of his views, many of which likely would have been seen as controversial. The majority of those have now disappeared. Please consider checking out older versions of this page, and re-adding those statements or views.
I concur; the article is already having positive stuff removed and negative stuff added. I am not Catholic but I am already noticing some less-than-flattering edits being made. A few minutes ago, the article contained a story about him ministering to 12 AIDS patients and even kissing their feet. Now, that's gone...and the section on homosexuality has been edited to include a quote from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner claiming that Francis I's views on homosexuality are reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition". Does someone (who's more knowledgeable than I) want to tackle those? I think the story about his ministry to AIDS patients is a lot more relevant to his biography than hyperbolic criticism from an Argentinian politician, but maybe that's just me. NathanDahlin ( talk) 19:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I agrree there should be more neutrality. People are putting allegations and accusations that have no solid evidence or need more evidence, while eliminating all the positive things the person did. Although some might disagree with his views it is no reason to reduce the wiki page into a polarized criticism ( talk)
now that he is pope, is he still technically a member of the congregations and the council listed in the article? Aunva6 ( talk) 20:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Under the section "Abortion, Euthanasia, and Contraception," the citation from the Financial Times given in support of the passage "He supports the use of contraception to prevent the spread of disease" does not mention this point at all in the linked article. Uncertain of the provenance of this point, although it is certainly important to include if a different citation can be provided. The current citation is: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d9c465d8-8c08-11e2-b001-00144feabdc0.html ---- Scipio82
The section now claims that "rumors suggest that Pope Francis would permit the use of contraceptives to prevent the spread of disease" and cites an article from the Guardian. Like the previous editor, though, I can't find any evidence of this in the cited article. -- Aurrell ( talk) 22:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This point about him accepting contraception is asserted in various articles, but there is never a source. Many other sources contradict it, such as John Allen, here: "Bergoglio is seen an unwaveringly orthodox on matters of sexual morality, staunchly opposing abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception." http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13 Allen is more connected than the articles that hold otherwise. His point should at least be noted in the article. 209.116.238.162 ( talk) 00:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Although already some were prone to attack Pope Francis, several past deeds, that also tell about his character have been ignored or even deleted from the page.
For example his active role to aid people during and after a fire in Buenos Aires:
The Chatholic Herald Reports:
Large copy-paste removed due to copyright violations. The article can be read in the link below. 88.104.17.92 ( talk) 11:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
profile of Cardinal Bergoglio first appeared in The Catholic Herald on October 7 2005( http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/2013/03/13/quiet-thunder-in-argentina/) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.62.10.142 ( talk) 02:25, 14 March 2013
There is some confusion about whether or not he got a doctoral dissertation and from which German university, if any. Lets figure that out:
and where does the Freiburg im Breisgrau claim come from?, regards -- Jan eissfeldt ( talk) 22:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Sankt Georgen - Frankfurt am Main" says:
I expanded the citation a bit and added more of the German text to the note, after consulting German speakers about the meaning of projekt in this context, which resolved to mean something closer to "topic", .e., Francis was exploring what project to take on. Respectfully. Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 17:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
There is a contradiction to the German version. It says the "Promotionsprojekt" was not completed which means he did NOT complete his dissertation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.205.118.202 ( talk) 09:57, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
His election is obviously a disaster for all gays, women and atheists worldwide. Iyadoz ( talk) 18:31, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Gasp, they elected a theist pope?? This is a sad day, Will somebody please think of the atheists? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.176.80 ( talk) 19:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that someone should put a picture of pope francis as pope. Also for the text box, I would like to suggest that instead of saying that his "papacy began march 13 2013" it should say "elected march 13 2013." His papacy doesn't officially begin until he is officially installed on march 19 2013 (saint Joseph's day." see http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/14/17302175-pope-francis-to-take-over-with-installation-mass-on-st-josephs-day?lite
His papacy began the moment he accepted his election. The "Mass for the Inauguration of the Petrine Ministry" is a formal event to celebrate the beginning of his papacy, but it is not an inauguration vis-a-vis the inauguration of a president. See the above discussion on "Pope-elect" for more information. NDomer09 ( talk) 04:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
User FT2 is applying personal interpretation/lenses to the Aparecida Document by splitting it into multiple subsections. To you and I child abuse and abortion might seem like two separate topics, but to Francis they are intrinsically the same concept. We shouldn't be taking information and categorizing it with our own labels and distinctions. His 2007 speech on Child Abuse and Abortion are the same speech/document. I also think wikipedia is showing it's bias in the Homosexuality section, but I'll let someone else clean that up. I don't want to try and take ownership of the entire "Positions on social and political issues" section. Since Francis seems to take the stance that homosexuals cannot marry but should be treated with compassion, the more accurate label for the category is "Same Sex Marriage." I am going to make that change along with correcting the Aparecida Document mess. I am not a catholic, homosexual, or an aborted fetus so I think I stand in a position to hopefully judge this objectively without imposing my personal beliefs. You can see my changes here. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pope_Francis&diff=544214543&oldid=544213953 Xkcdreader ( talk) 22:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
consensus is that it should not be added.
WP:DEADHORSE
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Last night I created a section to this article dealing with the connection Francis has to the prophecy of the popes- it was removed several times due to lack of sources mentioning Francis himself- I have added it twice today- with a much expanded number of sources, about 8 of which mention the pope by name and come from legitimate news organizations, yet it continues to be assaulted by people who I can only suspect may have a religious ax to grind. I see no reason why a completely PROPERLY sourced, well formatted entry on the subject can't at least have a home at the end of the article right above the section for his writings- as it DOES pertain to pope Francis, and thus the article at large- and may have had almost as much press coverage in the last day as anything else having to do with the pope. I even had a user accuse me of vandalism- just because some folks here may be skeptics does not mean the prophecy does not relate to the man about which this article revolves. Twarwick666 ( talk) 23:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It is nearly a guaranteed fact that every world leader of every major organization or nation has had dozens of not hundreds of prophecies uttered about them. That does not mean that our articles about such world leaders are necessarily obligated to report on such prophecies. In fact, it is only when the sheer volume of such prophecies about any one individual might become so "unusually large", that such an "unusually large volume of prophecies" has become a news item in itself, that Wikipedia will may include such a subsection an article. Until it becomes clear that this Pope has had an "unusually large volume of prophecies about him", I do not think that this would make for an appropriate subsection for this article. I have removed the section again. (Sigh) Scott P. ( talk) 00:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Please avoid the "and you too" rants. This secton has been discussed befoe, and there was no consensus for it, and there isn't here either. Cambalachero ( talk) 00:32, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
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Twarwick666 seems to lack a clear understanding of policy and is soliciting a certain imageboard for a "show of force" on this talkpage. (As though a bunch of random IPs saying "PUT THIS IN THE ARTICLE" will change how WP policy is applied.) Audiosmurf ♪/ ♫ 00:41, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Hey I just uploaded this:
Card. Jorge Bergoglio SJ, 2008 - nº2.jpg
I like it better than the previous one, also taken by me 5 years ago. :D
-- VanKleinen ( talk) 02:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Much better. But we should try and get a picture of him as pope. AKA http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/03/13/world/20130314_SOUTH_337-slide-9KQ9/20130314_SOUTH_337-slide-9KQ9-articleLarge.jpg. Does anyone in italy want to call the photographer or have a similar image? Xkcdreader ( talk) 02:36, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I would like to add the text below, taken from the following article:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/argentina-has-very-different-papal-candidates
Like other Jesuit intellectuals, Bergoglio has focused on social outreach. Catholics are still buzzing over his speech last year accusing fellow church officials of hypocrisy for forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.
"In our ecclesiastical region there are ," Bergoglio told his priests. "These are today's hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it's baptized!"
Jhourihan ( talk) 04:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
It needs to be rewritten. I would eliminate the quote entirely. For example ... Focused on social outreach, Bergoglio addressed church officials on hypocrisy of "priests who don't baptize the children" born to out of wedlock to single mothers, in contrast to the teachings that claim Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes. Xkcdreader ( talk) 04:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I see that Health has been dropped as a separate section. I think it's absolutely crucial for a man with a job normally for life, unlike say, a president with an elected term. It's important that he's in good health, and possible problems need to be stated. It's important now, and I can see this section developing in the future too. It needs to be a section and be in the table of contents. Pol098 ( talk) 06:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Has anyone thought of making a DYK nomination? Its definitely expanded enough. Proudbolsahye ( talk) 07:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Just a query - should his name be given in the lead in Italian as well, i.e. Francesco? I guess there's no precendent for that with other papal articles, but he is the Bishop of Rome after all, and Vatican business if often conducted in Italian. Thanks — Amakuru ( talk) 09:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
If anybody has sources, would they put in the article that Francis' disregarded wearing the post-conclave red mozetta? He also didn't wear the stall the whole time throughout his public introduction. GoodDay ( talk) 11:07, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm not certain as to which pope began the wearing of the red-ermine mozetta (and wearing the stole continously) throughout a papal introduction. But videos have shown that quite a few of his predecessors have done so. GoodDay ( talk) 14:51, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm suprised not to find any mention of this thing that's going around quite a bit on the internet:
Buenos Aires, June 4, 2007 (Telam) - Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, said that "women are naturally helpless to exercise political positions", referring to the presidential candidacy of Senator Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. "The natural order and the facts show us that man is the being for politics by excellence; the Scriptures show us that the woman is always the support of the thoughtful man and and doer, but nothing more than that".
It's actually possible to find in the internet years old references to the original statement, in Spanish. Any plan to add it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Udippuy ( talk • contribs) 14:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I can't think of any other article where this would be relevant enough for an opening graph (maybe if it were more languages and the article were actually about someone famous for speaking lots of languages), and it wasn't up in that paragraph until yesterday. Look, he's a highly educated guy who presumably grew up in a two-language household, so that's two right there. Many to most highly educated people of the world speak a number of languages. It's interesting enough for the article, but why is it important enough for the opener? Moreover, we don't put cites in opening grafs usually, for one reason because opening grafs are meant to be broad, broad introductions to a topic, and IMO the number of languages he speaks doesn't qualify. It's hardly earth-shattering news that someone with enough skills to be elected pope would speak multiple languages. Can we move the language info back down? Moncrief ( talk) 15:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Archiveing of previous discussions seems to have failed, the discussions are gone. Can someone fix this? Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 15:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I think that the demonym of Genoa is "Genoese", not "Genovese". Moreover, I would put the school name "Hipolyto Yrigoyen"" between quotation marks and/or in italic. Lele giannoni ( talk) 18:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
This seems to be a line that at least some reporters have picked up from his message. Here is a Fox News report [12] that focuses on it. I am not sure specific lines from speeches are worth including, and will try and see if there is other coverage of this line. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Here is an article from Discovery [15] that makes a big deal about the Pope not raising his arms when first presented. I am not really sure this is worth having in the article, but I figured I would mention it here so others could consider possibly including it. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:21, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Here [16] is an article from the Huffington Post on Bergoglio ministering to people in slums. I am not sure how or to what extent to incorporate its contents into the article, I will leave that determination to others. I would question the claims that Antonio Gil is a "pagan" folkhero though. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:53, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, the gaurdian has churned out this article [17] that presents Prope Francis as a man suffering from unrequitted love. It is long on speaking and short on substance, and I really do not find anything from it worth incorporating. Maybe if some other sources cover it with more focus on real fact and not spin it might be worth putting in, but not know. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
This article [18] from the Jerusalem Post specifically says that Bergoglio attacked President Kirchner for efforts to distribute free contraceiptives. This fact should hopefully quash "rumors" that Pope Francis favors contraceptive use, at least it should be used to balance such claims. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
In looking at the organization of the Papacy section, it occurs to me that Health doesn't need to be included here, as it is important generally, not just in the context of the papacy. The thing is, I don't know where else it should go...but I do think it's over-emphasized by putting it here. Hires an editor ( talk) 21:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The first 10 subsections in this section have been gathered from all over this somewhat fractured talkpage. Happy reading :) When commenting on this subject please do so at section 11 New Comments on March 14 and onward and not in the individuel subsections for a clear debate open to all, also newcomers. Thank You Jack Bornholm ( talk) 15:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Just to nip the inevitable edit war in the bud, why is it "Francis" and not "Francisco"? Localized name thing? Matteric ( talk) 19:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Where's the ordinal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.233.136.61 ( talk) 19:23, 13 March 2013
First Non-European Pope in History on March 3, 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.58.239 ( talk) 19:23, 13 March 2013
Francis the First is NOT A NATIVE AMERICAN...He is the First European of Italian Ancestry Born in the Americas/Argentina. Please respect the meaning of the words. There is nothing Native America about Francis the First. Get a grip folks. LostLanguages ( talk) 12:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
He is the twelfth non European pope. There have been two Palestinians, three Africans and six Syrians. Wmck ( talk) 00:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Currently the Vatican web page announces him as 'New Pontiff Is Pope Francis of Argentina' No ordinal at this time. That seems, for now, to be as reliable a source as you will find. http://www.vatican.com/ Sarafinadh ( talk) 19:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This post needs to be fixed in both grammar and facts. In fact it is basically all silly. He is not Native American, as that's a term for something else, deal with it. He's not European either, as he is not from Europe, and his ancestry lying in Europe doesn't change that. None of this is important in this discussion. Neither are you making sense. - the 16. of March 2013
The English-language Wikipedia's main page is currently (as of UTC 02:00 on the 16. of March 2013) mentioning the current pope as the first Latin American one. While this is true, it is more logical and informative (and less deceptive and questionable) to mention him as the first pope ever from the Americas, as common, reasonable practice worldwide is to refer to unique things by the largest extent of the differences from the other entities in the group (for example: "To be or not to be." would be referred to as a sentence rather than as not being a verb when contrasting this quote to the word "help"), not a subgroup of that. As it stands it's as silly as writing about two things that happened on Friday the 13. of a particular year while actually only mentioning this in the case of one of them although the whole point is to draw as many connections between the two events as possible.
If a specific Gambian man was the first from his country to walk on the moon, it would be strange to instead mention him as being the first person from the city of Banjul to do so. Likewise, if a bed and a mattress were brought to into outer space and neither type of object had been off the Earth previously, it would be odd to mention only the mattress when writing an article about it. If a celebrity is known both as being an actress and a tennis player, when mentioning her eventful life it would be strange to only mention her having had both television and film roles as examples of that, and leave her sports career and everything else unmentioned.
Here it says Pius XIII. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.233.136.61 ( talk) 19:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. The Vatican has explicitly said he is simply "Francis" without an ordinal. There is no reason to name the article otherwise, and there's a strong enough consensus here not to do so that SNOW applies (non-admin close) Hot Stop (Talk) 02:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC). Hot Stop (Talk) 02:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Pope Francis → Pope Francis I – Sources are giving his name as Francis I. I would have done a simple move but that page redirects here so I can't. Smartyllama ( talk) 19:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Is there proof that the 'Francis' refers to Francis of Assisi, not Francis de Sales? Both are saints - de Sales was a bishop and is a Doctor of the Church. I was unable to hear the official announcement of the regal name, but it would be good to confirm this association, rather than assume it. In an interview Cardinal Dolan said Pope Francis said he chose the name in honour of Francis of Assisi
No, the founder was St. Ignatius, but St. Francis Xavier was one of the first and best known members. Wmck ( talk) 21:29, 13 March 2013 (UTC) 91.83.198.239 ( talk) 19:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)Madnight
Yes a move would be right. John Paul I had an ordinal in his lifetime.
Title should include the ordinal I, as Pope John Paul I, but somebody already redirected that here. Grsz 11 19:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The ordinal is only used for the first when there's a second. John Paul I was only John Paul until John Paul II was elected. 86.9.122.202 ( talk) 19:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Correct, like John Paul, who specifically chose to add the ordinal. If this one does the same, the rule "no ordinal until there's a second" does not apply. 94.224.96.189 ( talk) 19:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Whatever is decided, the history from Pope Francis may need to be merged into this article, as both have been edited in parallel after a copy and paste move. For now, I have protected that page from editing to prevent the problem getting worse. WJBscribe (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Just before I undertook to write the paragraph you are reading, the article said in one place the name "Francis" was in honor of Francis Xavier, and another place in the article said it was in honor of Francis of Assisi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 ( talk) 19:54, 13 March 2013
The "Official vatican source" quoted by Smartyllama has contradicted itself, and shown it is thus not a reliable source. wxwalsh 20:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The only time your "official source" called him with the ordinal, they misspelled his name. Should we now move this to Pope Fracis I based on your source? wxwalsh 20:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Go to the source: The Vatican Web site says it is "Franciscum" in Latin, or "Francis" in English. It does not use the ordinal "I" after the name. See www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm. — Quicksilver T @ 20:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
STOP THIS NONSENSE ALREADY. There is zero evidence that the Twitter account is authentic. Do you think the Pope would have nothing better to do right now than have his nose in his iPhone sending Tweets? Use your brain, if you have one. — Quicksilver T @ 21:12, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Clarified http://bigstory.ap.org/article/francis-without-roman-numeral Nickm93 ( talk) 21:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Oppose the ordinal; official statements from the Vatican, precedent within the Roman Catholic Church, and standard convention for heads of state all mitigate against using the ordinal. Patrickwooldridge ( talk) 23:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Oppose - at the end of "Habemus Papam" announcement there was no "primi" (which means "the first" in latin) on pope name: http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUBi2mrWuNuyYy4gbM6fU18Q&feature=player_detailpage&v=GjgCyE78A8I#t=51s BUT! During John Paul I annoucment there was "primi" at the end of the name clearly said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJeo6Mi4LlI&feature=player_detailpage#t=372s So i guess thats depends on how pope names himself at the end of conclave - Shadowriver ( talk) 02:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't it just be Francis as there is no Francis II?
Go to the source: The Vatican Web site says it is "Franciscum" in Latin, or "Francis" in English. It does not use the ordinal "I" after the name. See www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm. — Quicksilver T @ 20:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
He won't get a numeral until or if there is a Francis II. Kjrjr ( talk) 22:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)kjrjr
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The name of the new pope should be "Francis", not "Francis I". Popes who take names that have not been taken by previous popes do not bear a number. John Paul I was a an exception to this rule. Please refer to list of pope's names provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes. Notice that pope Landus, elected in 913, was the last pope--except John Paul I and Francis-- to take a name not previously taken by a pope, and he does not have a number. Also, refer to the announcement of the the cardinal Protodeacon, who gave the name of the new pope without the number.
Thanks. 71.6.42.66 ( talk) 19:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
No. He has referred to himself as Francis I on Twitter. He decides, not you. Grsz 11 20:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
So we seem to have a bunch of editors who have decided what ought to be (no regnal number) and have zero sources backing them up, and we have several sources using the regnal number, including the pope himself. The pope's tweet clearly falls under
WP:SELFSOURCE. Please bow to the sources and use the regnal number. --
BlueMoonlet (
t/
c)
20:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, Pope John Paul II was presented on the Basicilca balcony as John Paul in October 1978. Though, it was likely a simple mistake by the protodeacon. GoodDay ( talk) 20:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Go to the source: The Vatican Web site says it is "Franciscum" in Latin, or "Francis" in English. It does not use the ordinal "I" after the name. See www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm. — Quicksilver T @ 20:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The most common name, without any doubt, is going to be Pope Francis. That is why the present title is correct and should remain as it is. There is no point in claiming that he is officially "Francis I" because he is not. Officially, he is "Franciscus I". That, however, is not how he is referred to in English. Surtsicna ( talk) 20:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The Vatican says the new pope's official name is Pope Francis, without a Roman numeral.
Spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi sought to clear up any possible confusion, noting that Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, who announced the name to the world, said simply Francis. It is listed that way in the first Vatican bulletin on the new pope.
"It will become Francis I after we have a Francis II," Lombardi quipped.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why do Pope articles start with "Pope" in the title? The Obama article is not titled "President Barack Obama." If we look at the first line of JPII's article, it reads "John Paul II (Latin: Ioannes Paulus PP. II, Italian: Giovanni Paolo II), sometimes called Blessed John Paul or John Paul the Great, born Karol Józef Wojtyła (Polish: [ˈkarɔl ˈjuzɛf vɔjˈtɨwa]; 18 May 1920 – 2 April 2005), reigned as Pope of the Roman Catholic Church ..." Notice how the article does not begin "Pope John Paul II." Barack Obama's White House page calls him, "President Barack Obama." http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-obama ---- So, why do some people have their title/position before their name, and others don't? Xkcdreader ( talk) 22:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Bergoglio isn't Pope (yet). According to this, U.S. VP Biden is going to be part of his country's delegation for the installation and it suggests the Vatican has said the Pope has not yet been installed.
Bergoglio is an old man. If he dies now he won't have been Pope. For example, Pope-elect Stephen was elected but died a few days later before being consecrated. He is not officially recognised as a Pope by the Vatican. Should he not be referred to as Pope-elect Francis in the title and should his article not reflect this technicality? If Bergoglio dies Wikipedia will have egg all over its face. -- 86.40.200.32 ( talk) 22:33, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
But he hasn't been installed. -- 86.40.200.32 ( talk) 23:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I realize of course that he's the first Pope Francis, but shouldn't the title of the article be his full title, Pope Francis I? Of course there'd be a redirect from Pope Francis to the article. Thoughts? Moncrief ( talk) 21:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchical_ordinal#.22The_first.22
says:
"In some monarchies it is customary not to use an ordinal when there has been only one holder of that name. For example, Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom will not be called Victoria I until there is a Victoria II. This tradition is applied in the United Kingdom, Luxembourg, Norway, and in the case of the queens regnant of the Netherlands. It was also applied in most of the German monarchies and in the Hungarian. In Sweden, the practice is not consistent, as Sigismund and Adolf Frederick never have ordinals, whereas Frederick I often does.
Other monarchies assign ordinals to monarchs even if they are the only ones of their name. This is a more recent invention and appears to have been done for the first time when King Francis I of France issued testoons (silver coins) bearing the legend FRANCISCVS I DE. GR. FRANCORV. REX. This currently is the regular practice in Belgium, Spain and Monaco (at least for Prince Albert I, as Princess Louise Hippolyte, who reigned 150 years earlier, does not appear to have used an ordinal). It was also applied in Brazil, Italy, Mexico, Montenegro, Portugal (where, although this is the general rule, Kings Joseph and Luís are usually referred to as "Joseph I" and "Luís I", although there were no Joseph II, nor Luís II) and by the Papacy under Pope John Paul I. The ordinal for King Juan Carlos I of Spain is used in both Spanish and English, but he is sometimes simply called King Juan Carlos of Spain in English. In Russia, use of "The First" ordinal started with Paul I of Russia. Before him, neither Anna of Russia nor Elizabeth of Russia had the "I" ordinal.
In Austria, Emperors Francis, Ferdinand, Francis Joseph and Charles all styled themselves as "the first" despite the fact that only Francis Joseph was the first Austrian ruler of that name (Francis was the second, Ferdinand the fifth, and Charles the fourth). This was due to the elevation of the title of the Austrian ruler from Archduke to Emperor.
The use of "The First" ordinal is also common to self-proclaimed ephemeral "kings" or "emperors", such as Dessalines, Christophe and Soulouque in Haiti, Iturbide in Mexico, Zog in Albania, Bokassa in Central African Republic, or the adventurer Boris Skossyreff in Andorra. In this case it is obvious that they want to emphasize the change of regime they pretend to introduce."
I have made the relevant passage bold. I know we can't use Wikipedia itself as a source, so there should be an outside secondary source. I do think this is a problem however. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 21:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, turns out that that's the way it is. Break from precedent it is also however. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 22:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Maybe I'm beating a resolved horse, but in case anybody has any doubts that this is "Pope Francis" and not "Pope Francis I", go take a look at the list of popes. There aren't any "Pope <moniker> I" pages for which there's no "Pope <monker> II". John Paul I has been mentioned, but that isn't an informative example, because there was a John Paul II. If Karol Wojtyła had decided to go with, say, "Pope George Ringo", then neither of them would have used an ordinal. TypoBoy ( talk) 16:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The Vatican says there is no numeral, it is simply Francis. "It will become Francis I after we have a Francis II," says a spokesman: [39] Pdxuser ( talk) 19:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Enough already! There was never a Rocky I or Terminator I or Police Academy I, the numerals only come with the sequels. Ajayvius ( talk) 02:24, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Why in the first sentence does it give the papal name according to "Ecclesiastical Latin"? As far as I can tell this is unnecessary and is the only page (besides Pius X - which is not the topic of this change) which makes this distinction. Franciscus is his name in Latin, both ecclesial and classical. NDomer09 ( talk) 05:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Is it "Pope Francis" or "Pope Francis I"?
Hi guys, there is confusion on how to pronounce the "GL" in BergoGLio in Spanish. What you guys have in this article is how the Spaniards would pronounce his name since it is only the Spaniards who use Palatal lateral approximant (λ). In Argentina, and Latin America in General, don't use Palatal lateral approximant. In Argentina, they use Voiceless palato-alveolar sibilant or Voiced palato-alveolar sibilant, while in Latin America, they use Voiced palatal fricative. I've also heard in some newscast in Spanish pronounce the "gl" separately, as in Ber-go-glee-o or ber-gog-lee-o. 99.179.174.131 ( talk) 00:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Warning: Italian pronunciation is [berˈgɔʎʎo], [41] not [berˈgoʎʎo] as written under note a. -- 2.232.13.230 ( talk) 10:57, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It should be added. And raising many red flags for me, when there are lots of child predators in church, but we can read no words about it in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.136.192 ( talk) 01:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with Xkcdreader. Statements or incidents that this Pope have been involved with as regards to the sexual abuse scandal within the Catholic Church *ARE* relevant. People will want to know these things, and should have the right to know what is out there from reliable sources. As Xkcdreader has said, "Generic accusations concerning the church as a whole do not"... however, this is a brand new Pope that nobody knows much about yet other that what official Church and media bios have said.
What we are missing in this article, frankly, are journalistic reports from Argentine news sources that document any Catholic sexual abuse cases there, as well as statements and actions that Pope Francis took as regards the sexual abuse scandal during the bulk of his career, as a Bishop / Archbishop.
It absolutely should not be a matter of "original research". Rather, it requires using Google searches -- ideally ones on Bergoglio limited to the time period before he became pope -- to determine what credible news reports there are of sexual abuse cases involving the Catholic Church in Argentina, and what actions or statements, if any, Pope Francis made in regards to them, or as regards the scandal in general.
It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that this issue is not relevant, as far as the Pope or his biography is concerned, as the Pope is the head of his church, and has the final say as regards how aggressively -- or defensively -- such criminal matters are addressed. Markkraft ( talk) 22:21, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
May I request that the full Latin name of Jorge Bergoglio be given? The Habemus Papam is in Latin and some may want to know how his name was said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.105.51.190 ( talk) 02:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I've looked all over the place on the web, and haven't been able to find a single quality reference about Bergoglio's English speaking fluency level. English, being the world's lingua-franca these days, I think it would be helpful if the article had something about this. Anyone else have any more luck with this? Scott P. ( talk) 13:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
close ideological ranting that doesn't answer the question |
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User Seb, You've apparently made the claim that you don't think Bergoglio can speak any English. Now is your chance to prove that we are all racists. Go prove that he can't speak any English, with a legitimate ref, and I will eat my hat! Scott P. ( talk) 14:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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Look at this from Sun News: [42] "Then, on Saturday, at Francis' own insistence, he'll meet the world's press and take questions in English, French, Spanish, German or Italian - the languages fluently spoken by the new Pope." (It is the last paragraf in the article) I dont know if the Sun is acceptable as an reliable source? If so we could put the languages spoken in the article now? Jack Bornholm ( talk) 14:41, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I have read a few articles that claim Pope Francis does NOT speak English, yet it's listed in his article here that he speaks English fluently. Can anyone find a better cite?
I met him several years ago and I can personally confirm that he does not speak English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.17.89 ( talk) 21:06, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
According to Vatican spokesman Lombardi, quoted by CNN, he only had part of a lung removed: CNN [44] -- Thathánka Íyotake ( talk) 18:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Francis should remain in Category:Argentine cardinals because that is for all people who have been Cardinals and from Argentina. Since technically Popes do not need to be Cardinal before Pope, and historically many were not, Pope categories should be treated as seperate from and not children of the Cardinals cats. People should be in both if they were both. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I just saw the "Argentine cardinals" category and it does have Pope Francis, although I'd suggest leaving "Jorge Bergoglio" in there as a cross reference. The FIU cardinals site has a page of "cardinals elected to the papacy" (which by the way includes the popes who had not been cardinals -- I do NOT think it's many). Pope Francis is there, but you can still look him up as Jorge Bergoglio, like you can still look up Pope Benedict XVI as Joseph Ratzinger. Bergoglio has left the cardinalate, not by death or by the rare case of resignation, but by becoming pope. By the way, MOST cardinals are bishops; a 1962 provision by Pope John XXIII requires that cardinals be (or become) bishops, but that is waived occasionally (usually for an elderly priest who's being made cardinal in recognition of what he has done for the church). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 ( talk) 15:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I and other English speaking Wikipedians can't check this as the source is in a foreign language, therefore I took it out of the article.
According to La Razon, a newspaper of the Argentine capital city of Buenos Aires, the government has the strategy of discrediting Bergoglio due to his staunch criticism against the President and her spouse, by falsely associating him with the military dictatorship. Giving several examples of the government's attempt, La Razon reported that the government used a photo of another priest to accuse Bergoglio of giving communion to a senior officer of the military dictatorship. [1]
I think it should stay out till someone who speaks the relevant language, (Spannish, Portuguese, probably) can check it. Also is "La Razon" reliable or biased? We need experts on that part of the world. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 09:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
A source which might appeal to people here is the English-language Buenos Aires Herald. During dictatorships it was in some ways the most outspoken (not very, it had to survive), and even some mainly Spanish-speakers read it due to its relative independence; it was tolerated perhaps because it was not read by masses of people who might be influenced, and was read by influential people difficult to suppress. Pol098 ( talk) 12:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I set this page to semi-protection within minutes of the announcement of Bergoglio's election, in a belief that it would be a major vandalism target. As a result, I've received substantial criticism on my talk page from IP users (some of whom mistakenly believed that I was responsible for semi-protecting this talk page as well also asked me to unprotect this talk page, although I'd had nothing to do with protecting it)).
These critics have challenged my judgement and intimated that I should unprotect this article. Since my judgment has been challenged in this respect, I feel that I should not be the one to make the decision either way. If another administrator is in accordance with the article being unprotected until such time as it becomes a repeated target of anonymous vandalism, I would have no objection to their taking the requisite action; as such, I'm posting here to draw further attention to the issue. DS ( talk) 14:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Administrators who suspect malicious or biased editing, or believe that inappropriate material may be added or restored, may protect or semi-protect pages in accordance with the protection policy.
"He is the first non-european pope in 1200 years." - Actually, almost 1300 - 1282 to be precise, last being Gregory III, a Syrian, who was elected in 731 A.D. and was Pontiff for 10 years. I know what the source says, but this says otherwise. Anyone mind if I amend the source and change that? Fish Barking? 23:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The article claims that "Francis is the first pope born outside Europe in 1,282 years, since Syrian St. Gregory III". But what is the evidence that Gregory III was non-European? The Liber pontificalis just says Gregory's father was a Syrian, but nothing about Gregory's own birthplace. If fathers' birthplaces are taken as criterion of Europeanness, Pope Francis is a European since his own father was born in Italy.
Newsorganisations Different newsorganisations have gone with the story:
Just a few. Jack Bornholm ( talk) 15:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
For the moment, the article claims that "Francis is the first pope born outside Europe in 1,282 years, since Syrian St. Gregory III." As discussed above, there is no primary source about Gregory's birthplace and, as the other "Syrian" pope of the 8th century, he was most probably born in Italy from Syrian refugees. One can claim that he was non-European by origin if not by birthplace, however there is no similarity but rather a clear contrast with the case of Pope Francis who, although non-European by birth, is European by origin since his father was Italian. So the sentence does not make sense. I suggest rather: "Francis is the first pope born outside Europe since John VI (701-705), born in Ephesus (several eighth-century popes were also of Syrian origin, but they were probably born in Italy from Syrian refugees)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.198.151.114 ( talk) 17:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Why not just say that Pope Francis is the first pope born outside europe since medieval times or he is the first in modern time. That is the same thing, but some believes modern time to be later (historical modern time is the time comming after medieval time, but is often misused). Jack Bornholm ( talk) 18:21, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
There is a quite lengthy article on no: about Bergoglio that can be translated, instead of mendeling with the copyright article. no:Jorge Beroglio Profoss 22:42, 2 April 2005 (UTC)
I expect lots of edit warring here, so this is a request to editors to take issues to the talk page before making controversial edits to the article. Andrew 327 19:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
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He was transferred in 1980 to become the rector of the seminary in San Miguel where he had studied. Tonylatt ( talk) 19:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
It reads he is the first Pope born in the Americas but then says he was born in India. Can we clarify / correct that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.232.4 ( talk) 19:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.84.197 ( talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
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Liberation theology Bergoglio is an accomplished theologian who distanced himself from liberation theology early in his career. He is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement. [edit]Abortion and euthanasia Cardinal Bergoglio has invited his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.[3] [edit]Homosexuality He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, though he teaches the importance of respecting individuals who are gay. He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by gays and lesbians is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".[4] [edit]Church and AIDS Main article: Roman Catholic Church and AIDS His doctrinal orthodoxy emphasizes Christ's mandate to love: he is well remembered for his 2001 visit to a hospice, in which he washed and kissed the feet of twelve AIDS patients. [edit]Social justice He consistently preaches a message of compassion towards the poor, but somewho? observers would like him to place a greater emphasis on issues of social justice. Rather than articulating positions on matters of political economy, Bergoglio prefers to emphasize spirituality and holiness, believing that this will naturally lead to greater concern for the suffering of the poor. He has, however, voiced support for social programs, and publicly challenged free-market policies. [edit]Relations with the Argentine government See also: Dirty War On April 15, 2005, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the junta in 1976 to kidnap two Jesuit priests, whom he, as superior of the Society of Jesus of Argentina in 1976, had asked to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow. Bergoglio's spokesman has flatly denied the allegations. No evidence was presented linking the cardinal to this crime.[5] [edit] Mmhmbop ( talk) 19:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The following edit should be made: "conformation" should be "confirmation" and "Papem" should be "Papam" in the cite for the reason for "Francis". Collect ( talk) 19:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Reference ^ Habemus Papam! Cardinal Bergolio Elected Pope - Fracis I (Archived at WebCite) needs "Fracis" edited to "Francis". ( talk) 22:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The references section is doubled! Teemeah 편지 (letter) 19:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Have you verified that the account @JMBergoglio truly belongs to him? There are several twits in that account that would lead to believe it's a fake, and it's been used as the first reference in the article. forgot to sign EOZyo ( мѕğ) 20:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
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During a May 2010 speech in Argentina regarding the poor, he directed his message to the wealthy by saying "You avoid taking into account the poor. We have no right to duck-down, to lower the arms carried by those in despair. We must reclaim the memory of our country who has a mother, recover the memory of our Mother"
Raphistorian ( talk) 20:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
ref goes to:
[1]
please don't use refs in talk pages, talk pages don't have reflists, so refs won't be visible...
does los sufficientes refer to the rich? google translate just says says sufficient, and makes zero sense..
"sufficient", he warned, "do not take into account the poor"
is what google says it means. I speak german and english, my knowledge of spanish is almost nonexistent, so if anyone here knows spanish, the original is:
El obispo primado argentino, cardenal Jorge Bergoglio, volvió hoy a criticar a "los suficientes" que, advirtió, "no tienen en cuenta a los más pobres" y exhortó a pedirle a la Virgen de Luján que "cuide a nuestra patria, en particular a aquellos que son los más olvidados". Jorge Bergoglio, volvió hoy a criticar a "los suficientes" que, advirtió, "no tienen en cuenta a los más pobres" y exhortó a pedirle a la Virgen de Luján que "cuide a nuestra patria, en particular a aquellos que son los más olvidados".
I can't say yes or no to the request if I don't know what it is saying. Aunva6 ( talk) 21:34, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Since this is a page about a new Pope, I would strongly encourage the editors to check for grammar and spelling before adding anything. Thank you very much. 63.3.2.130 ( talk)
It really doesn't belong in the lead...., but where? -- j⚛e decker talk 21:10, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
You can see it in the most recent edits of the offending user here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.180.76.19 S/he seems to have a history of various vandalism/blanking. Not sure what the protocol is for something like this as I stopped editing for a few years during university, but I thought I should bring it to attention. Davidmhaley ( talk) 21:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia servers use between yesterday and today. From 50,000 to 70,000 requests per second with habemus papam. emijrp ( talk) 22:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Francis is not the first jesuit elected as pope, to my knowledge. At least one predecessor ( Leo_XIII#Early_life) was a member of the jesuit order.
I suggest removal of the recently-added "connection to prophecy" section. The marginal news sources given are not enough to warrant inclusion of this tangentially-related superstition into this biography. -- Allen ( talk) 22:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I added that content because it is of great interest to the public- you wouldn't believe how many stores I have seen in the last weeks about the prophecy of the popes (which by the way has its own very long article so it can't be that marginal. As for the sources- I'd think a book, news stories, blog entries, and material from the catholic encyclopedia should be enough sources for a short section on the prophetic connections. I'll post this properly sourced section again if it is deleted. I will however if given time find more sources as I am certain larger news sites will pic up the scoop. Twarwick666 ( talk) 23:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
"Of interest to people" isn't necessarily notable, regardless of how well it is sourced. The prophecy is not really accepted among mainstream Catholics, so I question its relevance. But even if the section as a whole is appropriate, I STRONGLY question the inclusion of several sentences about the Horn book. How is it even remotely relevant to the topic or notable? That book may have predicted that Benedict would step down, but the prophecy of the popes (the actual subject of that section) most certainly did not. ( TPS Report ( talk) 23:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC))
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"Francis is the first Jesuit and the first Latin American to be elected Pope."
He is the first pope from the Americas full stop. The entire western hemisphere. I don't know why it needs to be narrowed down to Latin America.
Should be: "Francis is the first Jesuit and the first from the Americas to be elected Pope." -- 86.40.200.32 ( talk) 22:59, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
idk why it was changed. i changed it back. Aunva6 ( talk) 23:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This section should be either removed or severely trimmed.
To sum it up, this section has no relevance to the topic of the article at all. Str1977 (talk) 23:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Agreed that the prophecy stuff should go. A discussion of how Pope Francis doesn't fit the silly prophecy might belong in the article on the prophecy itself, but not here. Rinne na dTrosc ( talk) 00:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I put a warning on twarrwick666's userpage as he's the author of the blog, and of the edit on the the wiki page. He seemingly doesn't care that it keeps getting removed. Countered ( talk) 01:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Can someone please explain why the sentence regarding the languages Pope Francis speaks has been moved to the 'Papacy' section? Surely this has nothing to do with his position as pope and should be in the summary. Tmaynes ( talk) 00:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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Please unprotect this page as I believe I could contribute positively to this work. Mfribbs ( talk) 00:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Under the "Homosexuality" subsection the last sentence reading "He has also stated that adoption by same-sex couples is a form of discrimination against children." This is unsourced currently but the quote he said is "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God." This can be found here: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal_bergoglio_hits_out_at_same-sex_marriage.
I believe the first sentence under the Homosexuality subheading was written out of context with the cited source 40, Catholic Online: "NEW POPE: Who is this man named Bergoglio?" The sentence in the Wikipedia article states, "Bergoglio has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, including that "men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies must be accepted with respect and compassion." However, Catholic Online states in the opening sentence of the twelvth paragraph, "Among his teachings and stands, he strongly affirms church teaching on the intrinsic immorality of homosexual practices, though he teaches the importance of respecting homosexual persons." Wikipedia article did not specify that Cardinal Bergoglio strongly affirmed church teaching on the INTRINSIC IMMORALITY of homosexual practices.
Thank you.
Brian Glad
I know this goes against the usual way of doing things, but so many editors are adding <ref> tags that it's easier to temporarily add a reflist here than go through each link and try to figure out what it says. This can be removed once the editstorm dies down. Andrew 327 01:24, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
References
Please change the elction date to the 13th of March, not the 14th. It is not yet the 14th in Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.108.94.129 ( talk) 19:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Today is the 13th... Even in Europe. :) -- 91.56.37.184 ( talk) 19:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Date fixed to the 13th Pieism ( talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
its still 13th of march, even in iraq time zone 85.26.186.107 ( talk) 19:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC) Done by other editors. Andrew 327 20:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Francis wasn't elected on 7:06 PM, but 7:06 PM (local time) was the white smoke. This means the votes were already counted, so he was already elected. A native speaker asked to put this in a nice sentence. -- Sanderd17 ( talk) 21:00, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Francis Solanus (The patron saint of Argentina) makes more sense than Francis of Assisi
He may be playing the "sounds like" game though
"For twenty years Francis worked at evangelizing the vast regions of Tucuman (present day northwestern Argentina) and Paraguay. He had a skill for languages and succeeded at learning many of the regions' native tongues in a fairly short period. It is claimed that he could also address tribes of different tongues in one language yet be understood by them all. Being a musician as well, Francis also played the violin frequently for the natives, which helped them relate better to him. He is often depicted playing this instrument."
Spandox ( talk) 19:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Is this actually confirmed? I've heard various reports that it was after Francis Xavier, which would make more sense consider he was the co-founder of the Order of Jesuits. Do we have any confirmation about which man he chose the name for? Morhange ( talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't think this is factual, just speculation, because many people think "of Assisi" when they hear Francis... User:geerlingguy ( talk)
Yes, I think, its Francis of Assisi and not Francis Xavier... I just followed the discussions of the specialists and highest member of Catholic Church with live broadcasting on German TV.... and they all referred to the Franciscan Order. One of the speakers was a journalist of Vatikan Radio/TV and she same referred to... User:ElJay_Arem
Both Francis Xavier and Francis of Assisi were great Saints of profound secular importance as well It probably doesn't matter if he ever claims which St. Francis. Both were giants in the eyes of the faithful, with tremendous legacies, including huge contribution to secular learning, as well as to the development of the faithful in difficult times.
Either would be beacons for the 21st century and worthy models for the Bishop of Rome.
From what we have heard of his life, it is likely he knows and prays to both of them, as both seem to have had obvious influence in his character.
DrKC MD ( talk) 20:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
"Vatican spokesmen" such as the Rev. Rosica don't actually speak with any particular authority. The Vatican has made no official statement on the inspiration for the choice of name, which is much more likely to be Francis Xavier than Francis of Assisi. Bergoglio's movements over the next day or two may give an indication, and there may be an official announcement. But until then I don't think we should be stating outright that the name is in honour of Francis of Assisi. Nestor.mcnab ( talk) 09:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Article says he took the name of St. Francis of Assisi. I believe that but need a citation (that I can read). Otherwise, might not St. Francis Xavier, cofounder of Jesuits, seem a reasonable assumption also? -- Kbh3rd talk 19:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
None of the citations link to anything that says he selected St. Francis after Francis of Assisi. Can this be cited to something that states exactly which St. Francis? Why not the Jesuit St. Francis, after all? Seems like a good guess, Francis of Assisi, but, really are BLPs made of guesses?
If this is confined to registered users, please, to the registered users, stick with facts that you can cite. - 69.225.10.37 ( talk) 19:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
20:04pm GMT The BBC, EWTN and Vatican Radio are all saying that no announcement has yet been made about WHO he has named himself after. there are many possibilities. The guesses of presenters and journalists from big USA TV News broadcasters like the CNN carries no weight. Can I suggest we delete the guesses about his name and wait.
Anruari ( talk) 20:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Its Francis of Assisi and not Francis Xavier... I just followed the discussions of the specialists and highest member of Catholic Church with live broadcasting on German TV.... and they all referred to the Franciscan Order. One of the speakers was a journalist of Vatikan Radio/TV and she same referred to... User:ElJay_Arem
I wouldn't trust anything in the popular press at present, whether it's in Germany, the United States or elsewhere. Much of their so-called reporting on this matter has been a series of rumors and speculation. For all we know, the name "Francis" may be in tribute to both St. Francis of Assisi and St. Francis Xavier. Then again, it might be in tribute to Francis the Talking Mule. Instead of guessing, I recommend waiting for official announcements from the Vatican at their Web site or through the Vatican Information Service. As I write this, the last news release merely states that the Pope-elect has chosen the name "Francis". We'll have the correct answer soon enough. — Quicksilver T @ 02:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
As I said above wxwalsh, that is not official confirmation. Official confirmation would come from Bergoglio himself, the Vatican press office, information service or website. For the time being we need to remove the part of the article where it mentions "in honour of St. Francis of Assisi". It is speculation only at this point. Nestor.mcnab ( talk) 09:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
This
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In the lead paragraph, please expand the following:
Francis is the first pope from outside of Europe in more than a millennium, the first from the Americas, and the first from the Southern Hemisphere.
To this:
Francis is the first pope from outside of Europe in more than a millennium, the first from the Americas, and the first from the Southern Hemisphere or the Western Hemisphere.
Articulant ( talk) 20:10, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Once the flurry of editing dies down, the article should be expanded with biographical details. I suggest:
Does anybody have any details they would like added to the article? Abductive ( reasoning) 20:54, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This article needs a hatnote to Vicar of Christ (novel), because that is where Pope Francis I redirected until the present pope's name was announced and trafic stats show that it is consistently used [2]. Because of the page moving I've had to add it three times, so I'll add a note here so whomever moves it can fix it if it moves again. Thryduulf ( talk) 21:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Article title | Hatnote |
---|---|
Pope Francis | {{redirect|Pope Francis I|the fictional pope in the 1979 Walter Murphy novel|Vicar of Christ (novel)}} |
Pope Francis I | {{for|the fictional pope in the 1979 Walter Murphy novel|Vicar of Christ (novel)}} |
"In 2001, he visited a hospice to kiss and wash the feet of twelve AIDS patients. [1]"
After repeated edit conflicts, I semi-accidentally deleted this from the homosexuality section (Semi- because the editor putting it in also put in the false claim about "gay rights movement" when the actual quote referred specifically to same-sex marriage.) The AIDS patients are probably notable BUT they don't sit well in that section since it is an overlapping but still distinct issue.
Str1977 (talk) 21:34, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
He said this ( from Spanish via Google translate)
The Argentine people will face in the coming weeks, a situation whose outcome may seriously injure the family. This is the same-sex marriage bill......In that sense, Bergoglio said that "identity is at stake and the survival of the family: father, mother and children." "At stake is the lives of so many children who are discriminated against in advance depriving them of human growth that God would be given to a father and a mother. At stake is a direct rejection of God's law, also engraved in our hearts" said.
So, he meant "adoption by same-sex couples". I will change that if you don't object.-- В и к и T 23:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The article says he became a cardinal in 2001. This BBC source says he became a cardinal in 1998. — Tom Morris ( talk) 21:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
±±×—– — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:C0C6:30D0:8855:28B5:B5AB:A5E3 ( talk) 09:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Since it does not seem Pope Francis' writings are translated into English, there seem to be no official English translations of the writings' titles. I'm not sure if others agree, but I was wondering if posting English translations of the titles could be useful. Thus:
These translations are just rough attempts using my knowledge of Spanish. ZajoII ( talk) 01:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I have removed a line from the lead/summary section that was just added. The line stated that some people believed Pope Francis was the last Pope, as per the Prophecy of the Popes. The line I removed did make it clear that it was not a widely accepted fact, and it had a single citation (which referenced a news article). I was a little hesitant to remove it as it was not entirely bad content, but I do believe that it didn't belong in the lead to the article. I think it may have been appropriate if it was added as a new section to an article, and discussed in more detail, with reference to more sources.
Please revert my change if you feel I was wrong in removing that. Blelbach ( talk) 02:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
There's been some edit warring relating to Pope Francis on the Prophecy of the Popes talk page (e.g. relating to additions to that page about the theories that Pope Francis is the prophesied last pope). I don't believe there are as many people watching that page as there are watching this one, so I'd appreciate it if some of the editors here could take a look at Prophecy of the Popes and its talk page. My primary concern is that unreliable sources (e.g. online forums, news media) are being cited as sources there in a way that distorts what appears to be a fringe viewpoint. Blelbach ( talk) 06:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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I wrote a slightly improved lead section with two paragraphs (based on Pope Benedict XVI) since it is the first thing people see when they come here. It didn't even mention Bergoglio's birthplace or anything, and it didn't make for an easy read. Please check it is OK and swap the current one with this.
Francis ( /ˈfrænsɪs/, /ˈfrɑːnsɪs/; Latin: Franciscus [franˈtʃiskus]; born Jorge Mario Bergoglio [a] on 17 December 1936) is current pope of the Catholic Church. He serves as the 266th [1][ref name="guardian"/] pope, having been elected on 13 March 2013. In that role, he is both the leader of the Catholic Church and sovereign ruler of the Vatican City State.
- ^ Pronunciation: Spanish: [ˈxorxe ˈmaɾjo βerˈɣoʎo], Italian: [berˈgoʎʎo].
A native of Buenos Aires, Bergoglio was ordained as a priest in 1969. From 1998 until 2013, he served as the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, and Pope John Paul II made him a cardinal in 2001. Elected as pope in 2013 following his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI's resignation, Bergoglio chose "Francis" as his name. This marked the first time in papal history that this name had been used, and was the first time since Pope Lando's brief 913 reign that a serving pope held a name unused by a predecessor. Francis is both the first Jesuit priest and the first native of the Americas to be elected Pope. He is also the first non- European pope since Syrian-born Pope Gregory III, who died in 741.
I suggest changing the photo to this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/catholicism/8555995062/ Danny — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.87.126.82 ( talk) 03:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Could someone with the administrative rights add the following link (the Hindi language site): http://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AB%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B8 ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esprungo ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I would like to request that the following works by Pope Francis be moved from the Writings section to the Book section in the Bibliography. I am providing the ISBN numbers for the,:
Additionally, two more books may also be included as follows:
Clearly, he is the first pope who was born in the New World, the Southern Hemisphere, etc. I would be careful about saying he is a "non-European pope" though. Clearly, he is 100% Argentinian, but he is also 100% of Italian descent. Just say he is the "first pope not born in Europe" since the Middle Ages or something to that effect.
Also, I wonder if he could be argued to be the first pope with a formal scientific education? He had some kind of technical education in chemistry, I suppose, that doesn't make him a "scientist" in the narrow sense, but it's probably still uncommon for the higher ranks in the church. -- dab (𒁳) 06:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The word Pope needs to be included in the introduction, as this title has now become part of his regnal name.
There have been rulers from the Kingdom of France and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies that used the name 'Francis'. There should be no confusion. - ( 203.211.70.12 ( talk) 07:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC))
it's strange because noone is calling him just "francis" but always "pope francis", the absence of the numeral makes the simple "francis" a bit odd -- SquallLeonhart_ITA ( talk) 14:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The phrase "first non-European pope since the 8th century" in the lede should link to Pope Gregory III so people don't have to look for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.1.233 ( talk) 08:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
This
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As Cardinal he arranged for the faithful access to Latin mass:
http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm
Moon48 ( talk) 09:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Done Vilĉjo ( talk) 17:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The article states he had a lung removed as a teenager. Spanish-language sources (such as this) say it was removed shortly after he became a priest in 1969. This needs to be carefully checked.-- Ipigott ( talk) 10:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The Pope named himself Franciscus after Francis of Assisi as Cardinal Dolan stated] during a conference; the source is in Italina, but I am sure you can easily found something in English. -- Chessstoria (3 s) (All your base are belong to us) 10:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chessstoria ( talk • contribs) You're contradicting yourself: First, you say he took the name after Francis of Assisi; then you say it's after Francis Xavier. Which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjpk6269 ( talk • contribs) 10:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
You're contradicting yourself: First, you say he took the name after Francis of Assisi; then you say it's after Francis Xavier. Which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjpk6269 ( talk • contribs) 10:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Footnote 23 (from the guardian) cites the article to prove a claim that the Guardian article subsequently retracted. The text of the wikipedia article should be amended to reflect the Guardian's 2013 retraction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.4.200.8 ( talk) 11:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
User Scottperry has with intend to defraud introduced "information" that is nowhere to be found in that very clear and easy to read source ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/13/new-pope-thirteen-key-facts) regarding an English fluency that is apparenty inexistent. Must be reverted. 217.81.135.124 ( talk) 12:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
In the discussion of the Pope's positions on poverty and inequality, there is the sentence: During a May 2010 speech in Argentina regarding the poor, he directed his message to the wealthy by saying: "You avoid taking into account the poor. We have no right to duck down, to lower the arms carried by those in despair. . . ." This is an overly literal and incorrect translation of a quote from La Nación. When interpreting or translating, the goal is to accurately convey meaning and ideas, not words, from the source language to the target language. Also, the Wikipedia entry takes from the La Nación article two different quotes and combines them as if they were a single quote. It is inappropriate to treat exact quotations in such a manner. The discussion of the Pope´s comments about the poor should be re-written as follows: During a May 2010 speech in Argentina regarding the poor, he chastised "the comfortable" whom "avoided considering" the poor, saying: "We have no right to look away, to turn down the raised arms of the desperate. . . . " Rodneygriffith ( talk) 13:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)rodneygriffith
This section says nothing about his views, but only cites to an article that says there were no extraordinary form masses in Buenos Aires while he was Bishop. That does not mean he opposes them. This should be moved to the section on his episcopal career, and not in his "views" until we know what his view on Traditionalism is. 209.116.238.162 ( talk) 13:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Pope Francis isn't a Traditional Mass fan, but he gave it a home in Buenos Aires within 48 hours after Summorum Pontificum. 209.116.238.162 ( talk) 19:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC) http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/card-bergoglio-in-2007-after-summorum-pontificum/
"Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture." [1]
Reuters should be a reliable source. The article neither confirms nor denies what happened round the priests arrested and tortured by the junta, it merely cites what an author alleges one of the men said before he died. If Horacio Verbitsky is correct Bergoglio's later identification with poverty could be due to guilt over those two who suffered so much because they continued to visit slums after Bergoglio withdrew protection. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 14:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
All this theorizing about "secret reparation" as the motive for the new pope's regnal name is Original Research. Further, please let me remind you both that "this is not a forum for general discussion about Pope Francis. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article." Thanks. Rinne na dTrosc ( talk) 17:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Would a new section on relations with other religious groups be appropriate. For example, there is an article published by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) -- http://www.jta.org/news/article/2013/03/13/3121966/new-pope-francis-i-is-argentinian-cardinal-jorge-maria-bergoglio -- describing his strong positive connections with the Jewish community, specifically mentioning that he was a strong voice condemning the 1994 bombing in Buenos Aires that took 85 lives. NearTheZoo ( talk) 15:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Could somebody please improve on my translation. In a citation in the 'Relations with the Argentine government' section, near the end of the 'As Provincial' subsection, the headline 'Bergoglio declaró por los sacerdotes desaparecidos' was translated by Google as 'Bergoglio declared missing by priests', and this was used in the citation despite being a clear (and highly pejorative) mistranslation ('desaparecidos' is plural and refers to priests (sacerdotes), not Bergoglio, and 'declaró' is present singular verb ('declares', not 'declared')). I've provisionally changed it to 'Bergoglio testifies about the kidnapped priests', which I am sure is a great deal nearer what the headline says, but I'm not sure it's entirely right, as my Spanish is not very good. First, I don't know whether he was on oath (as 'testify' implies - the article mentions something about the legal immunity of top Church and State officials, so it may just have been a voluntary unsworn deposition). Second, 'por' normally means 'for', so 'for' or 'in favor of' could perhaps be better than 'about' , though 'about' seems to make more sense in this context. Third, 'desaparecidos' means 'disappeared' and normally implies 'dead', but these two priests were once kidnapped and later released, and are neither dead nor missing, so I've said 'kidnapped' (and thought about saying 'formerly kidnapped') but I'm not sure that's the best translation either, especially as it could perhaps refer to 'all the disappeared priests' rather than just these two. Tlhslobus ( talk) 16:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
RE: "to serve as confessor and spiritual director in Córdoba."
We know the name of the city, but it sounds like he was assigned to a religious institution, no? Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 17:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Lead paragraph says he is 79. He's 76 from all other sources. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.153.102.215 (
talk)
17:16, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Done It's been changed to 76.
Andrew
327
22:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest moving the HEALTH section down so it is not the first topic. While important, it hardly seems like it should be the first section, especially since there are no significant health issues to speak of.
Done
Andrew
327
21:37, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
In the quote in the section on homosexuality, there's the following sentence "(that's just it's form)" . I'm pretty sure there ought not to be an apostrophe in the word "its". Nothingbutmeat ( talk) 17:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
A hidden note next to the listing of Italian as one of his languages states that the Wall Street Journal says that he is not fluent in it. However, the source that is used to identify his fluency in French ( http://www.news.va/it/news/briefing-di-padre-lombardi) also lists Italian ("Il Papa - ha detto padre Lombardi - parla lo spagnolo, l'italiano, il tedesco, l'inglese e il francese....", "The Pope - said Father Lombardi - speaks Spanish, Italian, German, English, and French...." using my limited Italian). If the WSJ is enough to disprove his Italian fluency, then that source probably shouldn't be used for French, either. I'm leaving it now for both because it appears to be credible, even without overt mention of fluency. Mapsax ( talk) 17:47, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
This bio in Spanish seems a bit more detailed than most I've seen: El Litoral
Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 18:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
There is a discussion at CfD about Category:Pope Francis. I figured it would be good to notify people here that it exists. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I repaired two of the citations related to this, but they go to a blog: HERE. I'll leave it to others to find better sources or make the appropriate edits. Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 21:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The article described as published in "Humanitas (National Humanities Institute)" http://www.nhinet.org/hum.htm appears to have actually been published in "Humanitas (Pontifical Universidad Catolica de Chile)" http://www.humanitas.cl/web/ 67.208.53.74 ( talk) 22:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC)Terrence Berres
An examination of the List of popes shows that, discounting the special case of John Paul I where he combined the names of his immediate predecessors, Francis is the first brand-new Pope name since Pope Lando took the chair in 913 AD. Might be worth noting somewhere. 70.72.211.35 ( talk) 19:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Additionally notable in that he was the first Pope to do so since all Popes began using names not their own in the 16th century. Lando was merely the latin version of his given name, Landus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.255.99.77 ( talk) 19:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Think we should mention that he is the first Pope to take a completely new name since Lando in 914, John Paul was originally taken by combining the names of the previous 2 Popes as tribute to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.19.20 ( talk) 20:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
John Paul was a new name, it is made of two components but it is a regnal name -- Tefalstar ( talk) 23:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Request to add that Pope Francis is the first pope to choose an unused name since Pope Lando in 913. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pope Francis ( talk • contribs) 22:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Don't forget Pope John Paul I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.205.106.70 ( talk) 23:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
But his name was a combination of 2 previous names so not really an "original name" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.19.20 ( talk) 22:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It could be better to specify that John Paul I is not taken into account because it was stated officially that the name was taken from the two previous popes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.249.68 ( talk) 16:05, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Since his parents are italian it has been discussed if the Pope is European or not. This discussions are gathered here. Jack Bornholm ( talk) 17:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The List of Popes proves that. Anyone who re-submits that false claim should have it autoreverted. Just an FYI. -- JohnDBuell ( talk) 19:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
He's European because he is of 100% Italian descent. He simply wasn't born in Europe. European is more than just a geographical or cultural term, it's also ethno-racial. Christopedia ( talk) 06:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
He is most definately European, his ancestry is from Italy, and he is born in Argentina (a white country), what difference does it make if he is born outside of Europe he is still European in race, it would be like saying Australians aren't white because they weren't born in Europe.-- Collingwood26 ( talk) 23:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
His parents were italian, and so he has the right ( Ius Sanguinis ) to be italian. My question is, is he 1- Considered italian from the time he was born, at least technically, even if he has not requested it. 2- He has the right to be italian, but he must request it. 3- He requested it and holds italian citizenship.
What do you think?
Daniel32708 ( talk) 00:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
— This source ( http://noticabos.org/2013/03/13/para-los-italianos-el-nuevo-papa-es-italiano/), in spanish, claims that italian law consideres people its citizens from the time they are born if they are born from italian citizens. Daniel32708 ( talk) 00:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Why Double-Nationality?? Simple, is more easy to travel ;)--
186.62.185.205 (
talk)
03:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
His mother born in Buenos Aires, only you need watch the footnotes of the article...--
186.62.185.205 (
talk)
23:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
In the minutes before editing began in earnest on this page, I noticed a great deal more topics under the heading of his views, many of which likely would have been seen as controversial. The majority of those have now disappeared. Please consider checking out older versions of this page, and re-adding those statements or views.
I concur; the article is already having positive stuff removed and negative stuff added. I am not Catholic but I am already noticing some less-than-flattering edits being made. A few minutes ago, the article contained a story about him ministering to 12 AIDS patients and even kissing their feet. Now, that's gone...and the section on homosexuality has been edited to include a quote from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner claiming that Francis I's views on homosexuality are reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition". Does someone (who's more knowledgeable than I) want to tackle those? I think the story about his ministry to AIDS patients is a lot more relevant to his biography than hyperbolic criticism from an Argentinian politician, but maybe that's just me. NathanDahlin ( talk) 19:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I agrree there should be more neutrality. People are putting allegations and accusations that have no solid evidence or need more evidence, while eliminating all the positive things the person did. Although some might disagree with his views it is no reason to reduce the wiki page into a polarized criticism ( talk)
now that he is pope, is he still technically a member of the congregations and the council listed in the article? Aunva6 ( talk) 20:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Under the section "Abortion, Euthanasia, and Contraception," the citation from the Financial Times given in support of the passage "He supports the use of contraception to prevent the spread of disease" does not mention this point at all in the linked article. Uncertain of the provenance of this point, although it is certainly important to include if a different citation can be provided. The current citation is: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d9c465d8-8c08-11e2-b001-00144feabdc0.html ---- Scipio82
The section now claims that "rumors suggest that Pope Francis would permit the use of contraceptives to prevent the spread of disease" and cites an article from the Guardian. Like the previous editor, though, I can't find any evidence of this in the cited article. -- Aurrell ( talk) 22:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This point about him accepting contraception is asserted in various articles, but there is never a source. Many other sources contradict it, such as John Allen, here: "Bergoglio is seen an unwaveringly orthodox on matters of sexual morality, staunchly opposing abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception." http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13 Allen is more connected than the articles that hold otherwise. His point should at least be noted in the article. 209.116.238.162 ( talk) 00:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Although already some were prone to attack Pope Francis, several past deeds, that also tell about his character have been ignored or even deleted from the page.
For example his active role to aid people during and after a fire in Buenos Aires:
The Chatholic Herald Reports:
Large copy-paste removed due to copyright violations. The article can be read in the link below. 88.104.17.92 ( talk) 11:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
profile of Cardinal Bergoglio first appeared in The Catholic Herald on October 7 2005( http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/2013/03/13/quiet-thunder-in-argentina/) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.62.10.142 ( talk) 02:25, 14 March 2013
There is some confusion about whether or not he got a doctoral dissertation and from which German university, if any. Lets figure that out:
and where does the Freiburg im Breisgrau claim come from?, regards -- Jan eissfeldt ( talk) 22:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Sankt Georgen - Frankfurt am Main" says:
I expanded the citation a bit and added more of the German text to the note, after consulting German speakers about the meaning of projekt in this context, which resolved to mean something closer to "topic", .e., Francis was exploring what project to take on. Respectfully. Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 17:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
There is a contradiction to the German version. It says the "Promotionsprojekt" was not completed which means he did NOT complete his dissertation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.205.118.202 ( talk) 09:57, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
His election is obviously a disaster for all gays, women and atheists worldwide. Iyadoz ( talk) 18:31, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Gasp, they elected a theist pope?? This is a sad day, Will somebody please think of the atheists? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.176.80 ( talk) 19:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that someone should put a picture of pope francis as pope. Also for the text box, I would like to suggest that instead of saying that his "papacy began march 13 2013" it should say "elected march 13 2013." His papacy doesn't officially begin until he is officially installed on march 19 2013 (saint Joseph's day." see http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/14/17302175-pope-francis-to-take-over-with-installation-mass-on-st-josephs-day?lite
His papacy began the moment he accepted his election. The "Mass for the Inauguration of the Petrine Ministry" is a formal event to celebrate the beginning of his papacy, but it is not an inauguration vis-a-vis the inauguration of a president. See the above discussion on "Pope-elect" for more information. NDomer09 ( talk) 04:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
User FT2 is applying personal interpretation/lenses to the Aparecida Document by splitting it into multiple subsections. To you and I child abuse and abortion might seem like two separate topics, but to Francis they are intrinsically the same concept. We shouldn't be taking information and categorizing it with our own labels and distinctions. His 2007 speech on Child Abuse and Abortion are the same speech/document. I also think wikipedia is showing it's bias in the Homosexuality section, but I'll let someone else clean that up. I don't want to try and take ownership of the entire "Positions on social and political issues" section. Since Francis seems to take the stance that homosexuals cannot marry but should be treated with compassion, the more accurate label for the category is "Same Sex Marriage." I am going to make that change along with correcting the Aparecida Document mess. I am not a catholic, homosexual, or an aborted fetus so I think I stand in a position to hopefully judge this objectively without imposing my personal beliefs. You can see my changes here. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pope_Francis&diff=544214543&oldid=544213953 Xkcdreader ( talk) 22:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
consensus is that it should not be added.
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Last night I created a section to this article dealing with the connection Francis has to the prophecy of the popes- it was removed several times due to lack of sources mentioning Francis himself- I have added it twice today- with a much expanded number of sources, about 8 of which mention the pope by name and come from legitimate news organizations, yet it continues to be assaulted by people who I can only suspect may have a religious ax to grind. I see no reason why a completely PROPERLY sourced, well formatted entry on the subject can't at least have a home at the end of the article right above the section for his writings- as it DOES pertain to pope Francis, and thus the article at large- and may have had almost as much press coverage in the last day as anything else having to do with the pope. I even had a user accuse me of vandalism- just because some folks here may be skeptics does not mean the prophecy does not relate to the man about which this article revolves. Twarwick666 ( talk) 23:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It is nearly a guaranteed fact that every world leader of every major organization or nation has had dozens of not hundreds of prophecies uttered about them. That does not mean that our articles about such world leaders are necessarily obligated to report on such prophecies. In fact, it is only when the sheer volume of such prophecies about any one individual might become so "unusually large", that such an "unusually large volume of prophecies" has become a news item in itself, that Wikipedia will may include such a subsection an article. Until it becomes clear that this Pope has had an "unusually large volume of prophecies about him", I do not think that this would make for an appropriate subsection for this article. I have removed the section again. (Sigh) Scott P. ( talk) 00:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Please avoid the "and you too" rants. This secton has been discussed befoe, and there was no consensus for it, and there isn't here either. Cambalachero ( talk) 00:32, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
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Twarwick666 seems to lack a clear understanding of policy and is soliciting a certain imageboard for a "show of force" on this talkpage. (As though a bunch of random IPs saying "PUT THIS IN THE ARTICLE" will change how WP policy is applied.) Audiosmurf ♪/ ♫ 00:41, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Hey I just uploaded this:
Card. Jorge Bergoglio SJ, 2008 - nº2.jpg
I like it better than the previous one, also taken by me 5 years ago. :D
-- VanKleinen ( talk) 02:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Much better. But we should try and get a picture of him as pope. AKA http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/03/13/world/20130314_SOUTH_337-slide-9KQ9/20130314_SOUTH_337-slide-9KQ9-articleLarge.jpg. Does anyone in italy want to call the photographer or have a similar image? Xkcdreader ( talk) 02:36, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I would like to add the text below, taken from the following article:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/argentina-has-very-different-papal-candidates
Like other Jesuit intellectuals, Bergoglio has focused on social outreach. Catholics are still buzzing over his speech last year accusing fellow church officials of hypocrisy for forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.
"In our ecclesiastical region there are ," Bergoglio told his priests. "These are today's hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it's baptized!"
Jhourihan ( talk) 04:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
It needs to be rewritten. I would eliminate the quote entirely. For example ... Focused on social outreach, Bergoglio addressed church officials on hypocrisy of "priests who don't baptize the children" born to out of wedlock to single mothers, in contrast to the teachings that claim Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes. Xkcdreader ( talk) 04:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I see that Health has been dropped as a separate section. I think it's absolutely crucial for a man with a job normally for life, unlike say, a president with an elected term. It's important that he's in good health, and possible problems need to be stated. It's important now, and I can see this section developing in the future too. It needs to be a section and be in the table of contents. Pol098 ( talk) 06:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Has anyone thought of making a DYK nomination? Its definitely expanded enough. Proudbolsahye ( talk) 07:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Just a query - should his name be given in the lead in Italian as well, i.e. Francesco? I guess there's no precendent for that with other papal articles, but he is the Bishop of Rome after all, and Vatican business if often conducted in Italian. Thanks — Amakuru ( talk) 09:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
If anybody has sources, would they put in the article that Francis' disregarded wearing the post-conclave red mozetta? He also didn't wear the stall the whole time throughout his public introduction. GoodDay ( talk) 11:07, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm not certain as to which pope began the wearing of the red-ermine mozetta (and wearing the stole continously) throughout a papal introduction. But videos have shown that quite a few of his predecessors have done so. GoodDay ( talk) 14:51, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm suprised not to find any mention of this thing that's going around quite a bit on the internet:
Buenos Aires, June 4, 2007 (Telam) - Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, said that "women are naturally helpless to exercise political positions", referring to the presidential candidacy of Senator Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. "The natural order and the facts show us that man is the being for politics by excellence; the Scriptures show us that the woman is always the support of the thoughtful man and and doer, but nothing more than that".
It's actually possible to find in the internet years old references to the original statement, in Spanish. Any plan to add it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Udippuy ( talk • contribs) 14:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I can't think of any other article where this would be relevant enough for an opening graph (maybe if it were more languages and the article were actually about someone famous for speaking lots of languages), and it wasn't up in that paragraph until yesterday. Look, he's a highly educated guy who presumably grew up in a two-language household, so that's two right there. Many to most highly educated people of the world speak a number of languages. It's interesting enough for the article, but why is it important enough for the opener? Moreover, we don't put cites in opening grafs usually, for one reason because opening grafs are meant to be broad, broad introductions to a topic, and IMO the number of languages he speaks doesn't qualify. It's hardly earth-shattering news that someone with enough skills to be elected pope would speak multiple languages. Can we move the language info back down? Moncrief ( talk) 15:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Archiveing of previous discussions seems to have failed, the discussions are gone. Can someone fix this? Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 15:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I think that the demonym of Genoa is "Genoese", not "Genovese". Moreover, I would put the school name "Hipolyto Yrigoyen"" between quotation marks and/or in italic. Lele giannoni ( talk) 18:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
This seems to be a line that at least some reporters have picked up from his message. Here is a Fox News report [12] that focuses on it. I am not sure specific lines from speeches are worth including, and will try and see if there is other coverage of this line. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Here is an article from Discovery [15] that makes a big deal about the Pope not raising his arms when first presented. I am not really sure this is worth having in the article, but I figured I would mention it here so others could consider possibly including it. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:21, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Here [16] is an article from the Huffington Post on Bergoglio ministering to people in slums. I am not sure how or to what extent to incorporate its contents into the article, I will leave that determination to others. I would question the claims that Antonio Gil is a "pagan" folkhero though. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:53, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, the gaurdian has churned out this article [17] that presents Prope Francis as a man suffering from unrequitted love. It is long on speaking and short on substance, and I really do not find anything from it worth incorporating. Maybe if some other sources cover it with more focus on real fact and not spin it might be worth putting in, but not know. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
This article [18] from the Jerusalem Post specifically says that Bergoglio attacked President Kirchner for efforts to distribute free contraceiptives. This fact should hopefully quash "rumors" that Pope Francis favors contraceptive use, at least it should be used to balance such claims. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
In looking at the organization of the Papacy section, it occurs to me that Health doesn't need to be included here, as it is important generally, not just in the context of the papacy. The thing is, I don't know where else it should go...but I do think it's over-emphasized by putting it here. Hires an editor ( talk) 21:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The first 10 subsections in this section have been gathered from all over this somewhat fractured talkpage. Happy reading :) When commenting on this subject please do so at section 11 New Comments on March 14 and onward and not in the individuel subsections for a clear debate open to all, also newcomers. Thank You Jack Bornholm ( talk) 15:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Just to nip the inevitable edit war in the bud, why is it "Francis" and not "Francisco"? Localized name thing? Matteric ( talk) 19:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Where's the ordinal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.233.136.61 ( talk) 19:23, 13 March 2013
First Non-European Pope in History on March 3, 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.58.239 ( talk) 19:23, 13 March 2013
Francis the First is NOT A NATIVE AMERICAN...He is the First European of Italian Ancestry Born in the Americas/Argentina. Please respect the meaning of the words. There is nothing Native America about Francis the First. Get a grip folks. LostLanguages ( talk) 12:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
He is the twelfth non European pope. There have been two Palestinians, three Africans and six Syrians. Wmck ( talk) 00:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Currently the Vatican web page announces him as 'New Pontiff Is Pope Francis of Argentina' No ordinal at this time. That seems, for now, to be as reliable a source as you will find. http://www.vatican.com/ Sarafinadh ( talk) 19:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This post needs to be fixed in both grammar and facts. In fact it is basically all silly. He is not Native American, as that's a term for something else, deal with it. He's not European either, as he is not from Europe, and his ancestry lying in Europe doesn't change that. None of this is important in this discussion. Neither are you making sense. - the 16. of March 2013
The English-language Wikipedia's main page is currently (as of UTC 02:00 on the 16. of March 2013) mentioning the current pope as the first Latin American one. While this is true, it is more logical and informative (and less deceptive and questionable) to mention him as the first pope ever from the Americas, as common, reasonable practice worldwide is to refer to unique things by the largest extent of the differences from the other entities in the group (for example: "To be or not to be." would be referred to as a sentence rather than as not being a verb when contrasting this quote to the word "help"), not a subgroup of that. As it stands it's as silly as writing about two things that happened on Friday the 13. of a particular year while actually only mentioning this in the case of one of them although the whole point is to draw as many connections between the two events as possible.
If a specific Gambian man was the first from his country to walk on the moon, it would be strange to instead mention him as being the first person from the city of Banjul to do so. Likewise, if a bed and a mattress were brought to into outer space and neither type of object had been off the Earth previously, it would be odd to mention only the mattress when writing an article about it. If a celebrity is known both as being an actress and a tennis player, when mentioning her eventful life it would be strange to only mention her having had both television and film roles as examples of that, and leave her sports career and everything else unmentioned.
Here it says Pius XIII. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.233.136.61 ( talk) 19:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. The Vatican has explicitly said he is simply "Francis" without an ordinal. There is no reason to name the article otherwise, and there's a strong enough consensus here not to do so that SNOW applies (non-admin close) Hot Stop (Talk) 02:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC). Hot Stop (Talk) 02:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Pope Francis → Pope Francis I – Sources are giving his name as Francis I. I would have done a simple move but that page redirects here so I can't. Smartyllama ( talk) 19:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Is there proof that the 'Francis' refers to Francis of Assisi, not Francis de Sales? Both are saints - de Sales was a bishop and is a Doctor of the Church. I was unable to hear the official announcement of the regal name, but it would be good to confirm this association, rather than assume it. In an interview Cardinal Dolan said Pope Francis said he chose the name in honour of Francis of Assisi
No, the founder was St. Ignatius, but St. Francis Xavier was one of the first and best known members. Wmck ( talk) 21:29, 13 March 2013 (UTC) 91.83.198.239 ( talk) 19:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)Madnight
Yes a move would be right. John Paul I had an ordinal in his lifetime.
Title should include the ordinal I, as Pope John Paul I, but somebody already redirected that here. Grsz 11 19:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The ordinal is only used for the first when there's a second. John Paul I was only John Paul until John Paul II was elected. 86.9.122.202 ( talk) 19:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Correct, like John Paul, who specifically chose to add the ordinal. If this one does the same, the rule "no ordinal until there's a second" does not apply. 94.224.96.189 ( talk) 19:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Whatever is decided, the history from Pope Francis may need to be merged into this article, as both have been edited in parallel after a copy and paste move. For now, I have protected that page from editing to prevent the problem getting worse. WJBscribe (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Just before I undertook to write the paragraph you are reading, the article said in one place the name "Francis" was in honor of Francis Xavier, and another place in the article said it was in honor of Francis of Assisi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 ( talk) 19:54, 13 March 2013
The "Official vatican source" quoted by Smartyllama has contradicted itself, and shown it is thus not a reliable source. wxwalsh 20:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The only time your "official source" called him with the ordinal, they misspelled his name. Should we now move this to Pope Fracis I based on your source? wxwalsh 20:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Go to the source: The Vatican Web site says it is "Franciscum" in Latin, or "Francis" in English. It does not use the ordinal "I" after the name. See www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm. — Quicksilver T @ 20:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
STOP THIS NONSENSE ALREADY. There is zero evidence that the Twitter account is authentic. Do you think the Pope would have nothing better to do right now than have his nose in his iPhone sending Tweets? Use your brain, if you have one. — Quicksilver T @ 21:12, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Clarified http://bigstory.ap.org/article/francis-without-roman-numeral Nickm93 ( talk) 21:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Oppose the ordinal; official statements from the Vatican, precedent within the Roman Catholic Church, and standard convention for heads of state all mitigate against using the ordinal. Patrickwooldridge ( talk) 23:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Oppose - at the end of "Habemus Papam" announcement there was no "primi" (which means "the first" in latin) on pope name: http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUBi2mrWuNuyYy4gbM6fU18Q&feature=player_detailpage&v=GjgCyE78A8I#t=51s BUT! During John Paul I annoucment there was "primi" at the end of the name clearly said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJeo6Mi4LlI&feature=player_detailpage#t=372s So i guess thats depends on how pope names himself at the end of conclave - Shadowriver ( talk) 02:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't it just be Francis as there is no Francis II?
Go to the source: The Vatican Web site says it is "Franciscum" in Latin, or "Francis" in English. It does not use the ordinal "I" after the name. See www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm. — Quicksilver T @ 20:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
He won't get a numeral until or if there is a Francis II. Kjrjr ( talk) 22:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)kjrjr
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The name of the new pope should be "Francis", not "Francis I". Popes who take names that have not been taken by previous popes do not bear a number. John Paul I was a an exception to this rule. Please refer to list of pope's names provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes. Notice that pope Landus, elected in 913, was the last pope--except John Paul I and Francis-- to take a name not previously taken by a pope, and he does not have a number. Also, refer to the announcement of the the cardinal Protodeacon, who gave the name of the new pope without the number.
Thanks. 71.6.42.66 ( talk) 19:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
No. He has referred to himself as Francis I on Twitter. He decides, not you. Grsz 11 20:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
So we seem to have a bunch of editors who have decided what ought to be (no regnal number) and have zero sources backing them up, and we have several sources using the regnal number, including the pope himself. The pope's tweet clearly falls under
WP:SELFSOURCE. Please bow to the sources and use the regnal number. --
BlueMoonlet (
t/
c)
20:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, Pope John Paul II was presented on the Basicilca balcony as John Paul in October 1978. Though, it was likely a simple mistake by the protodeacon. GoodDay ( talk) 20:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Go to the source: The Vatican Web site says it is "Franciscum" in Latin, or "Francis" in English. It does not use the ordinal "I" after the name. See www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm. — Quicksilver T @ 20:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The most common name, without any doubt, is going to be Pope Francis. That is why the present title is correct and should remain as it is. There is no point in claiming that he is officially "Francis I" because he is not. Officially, he is "Franciscus I". That, however, is not how he is referred to in English. Surtsicna ( talk) 20:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The Vatican says the new pope's official name is Pope Francis, without a Roman numeral.
Spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi sought to clear up any possible confusion, noting that Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, who announced the name to the world, said simply Francis. It is listed that way in the first Vatican bulletin on the new pope.
"It will become Francis I after we have a Francis II," Lombardi quipped.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why do Pope articles start with "Pope" in the title? The Obama article is not titled "President Barack Obama." If we look at the first line of JPII's article, it reads "John Paul II (Latin: Ioannes Paulus PP. II, Italian: Giovanni Paolo II), sometimes called Blessed John Paul or John Paul the Great, born Karol Józef Wojtyła (Polish: [ˈkarɔl ˈjuzɛf vɔjˈtɨwa]; 18 May 1920 – 2 April 2005), reigned as Pope of the Roman Catholic Church ..." Notice how the article does not begin "Pope John Paul II." Barack Obama's White House page calls him, "President Barack Obama." http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-obama ---- So, why do some people have their title/position before their name, and others don't? Xkcdreader ( talk) 22:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Bergoglio isn't Pope (yet). According to this, U.S. VP Biden is going to be part of his country's delegation for the installation and it suggests the Vatican has said the Pope has not yet been installed.
Bergoglio is an old man. If he dies now he won't have been Pope. For example, Pope-elect Stephen was elected but died a few days later before being consecrated. He is not officially recognised as a Pope by the Vatican. Should he not be referred to as Pope-elect Francis in the title and should his article not reflect this technicality? If Bergoglio dies Wikipedia will have egg all over its face. -- 86.40.200.32 ( talk) 22:33, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
But he hasn't been installed. -- 86.40.200.32 ( talk) 23:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I realize of course that he's the first Pope Francis, but shouldn't the title of the article be his full title, Pope Francis I? Of course there'd be a redirect from Pope Francis to the article. Thoughts? Moncrief ( talk) 21:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchical_ordinal#.22The_first.22
says:
"In some monarchies it is customary not to use an ordinal when there has been only one holder of that name. For example, Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom will not be called Victoria I until there is a Victoria II. This tradition is applied in the United Kingdom, Luxembourg, Norway, and in the case of the queens regnant of the Netherlands. It was also applied in most of the German monarchies and in the Hungarian. In Sweden, the practice is not consistent, as Sigismund and Adolf Frederick never have ordinals, whereas Frederick I often does.
Other monarchies assign ordinals to monarchs even if they are the only ones of their name. This is a more recent invention and appears to have been done for the first time when King Francis I of France issued testoons (silver coins) bearing the legend FRANCISCVS I DE. GR. FRANCORV. REX. This currently is the regular practice in Belgium, Spain and Monaco (at least for Prince Albert I, as Princess Louise Hippolyte, who reigned 150 years earlier, does not appear to have used an ordinal). It was also applied in Brazil, Italy, Mexico, Montenegro, Portugal (where, although this is the general rule, Kings Joseph and Luís are usually referred to as "Joseph I" and "Luís I", although there were no Joseph II, nor Luís II) and by the Papacy under Pope John Paul I. The ordinal for King Juan Carlos I of Spain is used in both Spanish and English, but he is sometimes simply called King Juan Carlos of Spain in English. In Russia, use of "The First" ordinal started with Paul I of Russia. Before him, neither Anna of Russia nor Elizabeth of Russia had the "I" ordinal.
In Austria, Emperors Francis, Ferdinand, Francis Joseph and Charles all styled themselves as "the first" despite the fact that only Francis Joseph was the first Austrian ruler of that name (Francis was the second, Ferdinand the fifth, and Charles the fourth). This was due to the elevation of the title of the Austrian ruler from Archduke to Emperor.
The use of "The First" ordinal is also common to self-proclaimed ephemeral "kings" or "emperors", such as Dessalines, Christophe and Soulouque in Haiti, Iturbide in Mexico, Zog in Albania, Bokassa in Central African Republic, or the adventurer Boris Skossyreff in Andorra. In this case it is obvious that they want to emphasize the change of regime they pretend to introduce."
I have made the relevant passage bold. I know we can't use Wikipedia itself as a source, so there should be an outside secondary source. I do think this is a problem however. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 21:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, turns out that that's the way it is. Break from precedent it is also however. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 22:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Maybe I'm beating a resolved horse, but in case anybody has any doubts that this is "Pope Francis" and not "Pope Francis I", go take a look at the list of popes. There aren't any "Pope <moniker> I" pages for which there's no "Pope <monker> II". John Paul I has been mentioned, but that isn't an informative example, because there was a John Paul II. If Karol Wojtyła had decided to go with, say, "Pope George Ringo", then neither of them would have used an ordinal. TypoBoy ( talk) 16:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The Vatican says there is no numeral, it is simply Francis. "It will become Francis I after we have a Francis II," says a spokesman: [39] Pdxuser ( talk) 19:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Enough already! There was never a Rocky I or Terminator I or Police Academy I, the numerals only come with the sequels. Ajayvius ( talk) 02:24, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Why in the first sentence does it give the papal name according to "Ecclesiastical Latin"? As far as I can tell this is unnecessary and is the only page (besides Pius X - which is not the topic of this change) which makes this distinction. Franciscus is his name in Latin, both ecclesial and classical. NDomer09 ( talk) 05:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Is it "Pope Francis" or "Pope Francis I"?
Hi guys, there is confusion on how to pronounce the "GL" in BergoGLio in Spanish. What you guys have in this article is how the Spaniards would pronounce his name since it is only the Spaniards who use Palatal lateral approximant (λ). In Argentina, and Latin America in General, don't use Palatal lateral approximant. In Argentina, they use Voiceless palato-alveolar sibilant or Voiced palato-alveolar sibilant, while in Latin America, they use Voiced palatal fricative. I've also heard in some newscast in Spanish pronounce the "gl" separately, as in Ber-go-glee-o or ber-gog-lee-o. 99.179.174.131 ( talk) 00:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Warning: Italian pronunciation is [berˈgɔʎʎo], [41] not [berˈgoʎʎo] as written under note a. -- 2.232.13.230 ( talk) 10:57, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It should be added. And raising many red flags for me, when there are lots of child predators in church, but we can read no words about it in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.136.192 ( talk) 01:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with Xkcdreader. Statements or incidents that this Pope have been involved with as regards to the sexual abuse scandal within the Catholic Church *ARE* relevant. People will want to know these things, and should have the right to know what is out there from reliable sources. As Xkcdreader has said, "Generic accusations concerning the church as a whole do not"... however, this is a brand new Pope that nobody knows much about yet other that what official Church and media bios have said.
What we are missing in this article, frankly, are journalistic reports from Argentine news sources that document any Catholic sexual abuse cases there, as well as statements and actions that Pope Francis took as regards the sexual abuse scandal during the bulk of his career, as a Bishop / Archbishop.
It absolutely should not be a matter of "original research". Rather, it requires using Google searches -- ideally ones on Bergoglio limited to the time period before he became pope -- to determine what credible news reports there are of sexual abuse cases involving the Catholic Church in Argentina, and what actions or statements, if any, Pope Francis made in regards to them, or as regards the scandal in general.
It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that this issue is not relevant, as far as the Pope or his biography is concerned, as the Pope is the head of his church, and has the final say as regards how aggressively -- or defensively -- such criminal matters are addressed. Markkraft ( talk) 22:21, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
May I request that the full Latin name of Jorge Bergoglio be given? The Habemus Papam is in Latin and some may want to know how his name was said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.105.51.190 ( talk) 02:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I've looked all over the place on the web, and haven't been able to find a single quality reference about Bergoglio's English speaking fluency level. English, being the world's lingua-franca these days, I think it would be helpful if the article had something about this. Anyone else have any more luck with this? Scott P. ( talk) 13:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
close ideological ranting that doesn't answer the question |
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User Seb, You've apparently made the claim that you don't think Bergoglio can speak any English. Now is your chance to prove that we are all racists. Go prove that he can't speak any English, with a legitimate ref, and I will eat my hat! Scott P. ( talk) 14:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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Look at this from Sun News: [42] "Then, on Saturday, at Francis' own insistence, he'll meet the world's press and take questions in English, French, Spanish, German or Italian - the languages fluently spoken by the new Pope." (It is the last paragraf in the article) I dont know if the Sun is acceptable as an reliable source? If so we could put the languages spoken in the article now? Jack Bornholm ( talk) 14:41, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I have read a few articles that claim Pope Francis does NOT speak English, yet it's listed in his article here that he speaks English fluently. Can anyone find a better cite?
I met him several years ago and I can personally confirm that he does not speak English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.17.89 ( talk) 21:06, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
According to Vatican spokesman Lombardi, quoted by CNN, he only had part of a lung removed: CNN [44] -- Thathánka Íyotake ( talk) 18:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Francis should remain in Category:Argentine cardinals because that is for all people who have been Cardinals and from Argentina. Since technically Popes do not need to be Cardinal before Pope, and historically many were not, Pope categories should be treated as seperate from and not children of the Cardinals cats. People should be in both if they were both. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I just saw the "Argentine cardinals" category and it does have Pope Francis, although I'd suggest leaving "Jorge Bergoglio" in there as a cross reference. The FIU cardinals site has a page of "cardinals elected to the papacy" (which by the way includes the popes who had not been cardinals -- I do NOT think it's many). Pope Francis is there, but you can still look him up as Jorge Bergoglio, like you can still look up Pope Benedict XVI as Joseph Ratzinger. Bergoglio has left the cardinalate, not by death or by the rare case of resignation, but by becoming pope. By the way, MOST cardinals are bishops; a 1962 provision by Pope John XXIII requires that cardinals be (or become) bishops, but that is waived occasionally (usually for an elderly priest who's being made cardinal in recognition of what he has done for the church). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 ( talk) 15:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I and other English speaking Wikipedians can't check this as the source is in a foreign language, therefore I took it out of the article.
According to La Razon, a newspaper of the Argentine capital city of Buenos Aires, the government has the strategy of discrediting Bergoglio due to his staunch criticism against the President and her spouse, by falsely associating him with the military dictatorship. Giving several examples of the government's attempt, La Razon reported that the government used a photo of another priest to accuse Bergoglio of giving communion to a senior officer of the military dictatorship. [1]
I think it should stay out till someone who speaks the relevant language, (Spannish, Portuguese, probably) can check it. Also is "La Razon" reliable or biased? We need experts on that part of the world. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 09:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
A source which might appeal to people here is the English-language Buenos Aires Herald. During dictatorships it was in some ways the most outspoken (not very, it had to survive), and even some mainly Spanish-speakers read it due to its relative independence; it was tolerated perhaps because it was not read by masses of people who might be influenced, and was read by influential people difficult to suppress. Pol098 ( talk) 12:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I set this page to semi-protection within minutes of the announcement of Bergoglio's election, in a belief that it would be a major vandalism target. As a result, I've received substantial criticism on my talk page from IP users (some of whom mistakenly believed that I was responsible for semi-protecting this talk page as well also asked me to unprotect this talk page, although I'd had nothing to do with protecting it)).
These critics have challenged my judgement and intimated that I should unprotect this article. Since my judgment has been challenged in this respect, I feel that I should not be the one to make the decision either way. If another administrator is in accordance with the article being unprotected until such time as it becomes a repeated target of anonymous vandalism, I would have no objection to their taking the requisite action; as such, I'm posting here to draw further attention to the issue. DS ( talk) 14:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Administrators who suspect malicious or biased editing, or believe that inappropriate material may be added or restored, may protect or semi-protect pages in accordance with the protection policy.
"He is the first non-european pope in 1200 years." - Actually, almost 1300 - 1282 to be precise, last being Gregory III, a Syrian, who was elected in 731 A.D. and was Pontiff for 10 years. I know what the source says, but this says otherwise. Anyone mind if I amend the source and change that? Fish Barking? 23:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The article claims that "Francis is the first pope born outside Europe in 1,282 years, since Syrian St. Gregory III". But what is the evidence that Gregory III was non-European? The Liber pontificalis just says Gregory's father was a Syrian, but nothing about Gregory's own birthplace. If fathers' birthplaces are taken as criterion of Europeanness, Pope Francis is a European since his own father was born in Italy.
Newsorganisations Different newsorganisations have gone with the story:
Just a few. Jack Bornholm ( talk) 15:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
For the moment, the article claims that "Francis is the first pope born outside Europe in 1,282 years, since Syrian St. Gregory III." As discussed above, there is no primary source about Gregory's birthplace and, as the other "Syrian" pope of the 8th century, he was most probably born in Italy from Syrian refugees. One can claim that he was non-European by origin if not by birthplace, however there is no similarity but rather a clear contrast with the case of Pope Francis who, although non-European by birth, is European by origin since his father was Italian. So the sentence does not make sense. I suggest rather: "Francis is the first pope born outside Europe since John VI (701-705), born in Ephesus (several eighth-century popes were also of Syrian origin, but they were probably born in Italy from Syrian refugees)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.198.151.114 ( talk) 17:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Why not just say that Pope Francis is the first pope born outside europe since medieval times or he is the first in modern time. That is the same thing, but some believes modern time to be later (historical modern time is the time comming after medieval time, but is often misused). Jack Bornholm ( talk) 18:21, 15 March 2013 (UTC)