![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 5 December 2008. The result of the discussion was Nomination withdrawn. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
You make no difference between a political party and a political machine !!! Guys, include the difference in the definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.4.6 ( talk) 02:18, 20 October 2010 (UTC) This should really not be a U.S.-specific article. Certainly relevant to Brazil, and Mexico's PRI was for years the ultimate political machine. And I'm sure it exists in dozens of other countries. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:00, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Internationally, and especially in Latin America, the key word in looking for material on this is "clientelism" (Spanish "clientelismo"). -- Jmabel | Talk 07:07, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Clientelism should have its own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.165.209.92 ( talk • contribs) 13 Dec 2005
Not yet, why is he even listed in the historical list??
I have noticed the term "political machine" being used in a modern context to describe tight-knit party organizations in modern cities and suburbs. For example, Tom Delay is said to have a political machine in Texas. Should the use of the term in this context be discussed on this page? Someone might come to this page having seen the term in a newspaper or heard in on the radio or TV used to describe a present-day political structure. Maybe this should be addressed? Griot 17:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)Griot
Griot, it seems to me that your recent edit tilts this awfully far in favor of machine politics. It may have previously been too biased the other way.
It would be good if someone would seek a happy medium, preferably with cited praise and criticism of machine politics. - Jmabel | Talk 20:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Why on earth do we have three external links about one race in Parma, Ohio, complete with a link caption telling us what to "notice"? This is not useful on a global scale for someone looking up political machine. In the worldwide scheme of things, Parma is pretty small change. I say move this stuff to the article on Parma, Ohio & make one link to that article from this one. - Jmabel | Talk 17:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
This is the most irresponsible article I have ever found on wikipedia. Please post some sources for this machine theory. There are hundreds of books written on clientelism, several of which sit on my shelf, and none of them mention any nonsense about a "political machine." I have been a student of political science, studying clientelistic relationships, for many years, and I have never heard the concept "political machine" linked to the peer-reviewed scholarly work out there on clientelism. Admittedly, I haven't read everything on the topic, so if someone could just please post a few sources on this concept, I will gladly go out and read them and if necessary reconcile my present doubts. I will also look into the matter on my own. Otherwise, I am going to have to insist on the creation of a separate page for clientelism, and I will do it myself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.57.48.235 ( talk • contribs) 24 September 2006.
While some of this is quite accurate, the article is way under-cited (e.g. who says the Irish uniquely benefitted and other immigrant groups did not?), and many of the things that do have citation are sloppily cited (e.g. books mentioned, but no page numbers for the relevant passages). Also, some of it is so poorly worded I can't make out what it means to say: I cannot decipher "this view often coincided with a lack of period alternatives."
This could be greatly improved by someone willing to put some time into it. - Jmabel | Talk 06:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't an option to the Political Machine (game) here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.184.19 ( talk) 21:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
What about the political machine of Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? You often hear them talk of the Clinton Machine; I'm sure it deserves a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.116.3 ( talk) 18:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I have an issue with Robert M. La Follette, Sr. being on this list. If you have done any research on him, you will learn that he fought the political machine, and was an enemy of Boss politics. If no one can provide a rationale reason as to why he belongs here, I'll remove him Thursday (UTC). -- False Prophet ( talk) 02:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
"political machine" and "machine politics" are simply pejorative labels. To say anyone falls into this category is simply POV - all we could do is say that someone was once accused it and no more. The article needs substantial rewriting to make it neutral.-- Scott MacDonald ( talk) 15:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Is actually an extended play on the powers of bureaucrats, and has no relationship with "political machine" as found in the US. FWIW, Ben Franklin set up one of the first political machines in the US -- the "Junto" in Philadelphia. Collect ( talk) 19:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Retrieved from these search results. Avruch T 22:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
There were some citations listed as further reading in the article, as well. Uncle G ( talk) 14:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I thought this rewrite of the top section, adding a new section, "Definition", would be noncontroversial because it seemed to meet the objections previously made. It adds sourcing, removes some comments I didn't see reflected in sources, and I tried not to state anything controversial (or where I thought there would be objetions). Any statements in the first paragraph are either too commonsensical to bother sourcing or have sources further down. Please look at the Encyclopedia Britannica article linked to in the footnotes and see the quotes from the Safire source. I don't understand in the "The problems with this article" discussion, below, where the continuing objections aren't already answered here.
OK, let me lay out where I'm coming from. "Political machine", I think we agree is a pejorative term. It is a label that some people have applied to certain politicians and political infrastructures at varying times. We can perhaps record a) what the term generally implies by those who use it (requires sources) b) notable instances of its use and regimes to which it has often been applied.
What we must not do is actually call any particular regime a "political machine" - that would be POV and labelling. I realise that there are sources on "political machines", but ultimately there are simply authors discussing particular organisations, or trends within a number of administrations under the title. So we can say "Bob Smith called the administration of mayor x, a political machine, because according to Smith it...". But ultimately that's only notable if Smith is notable, and his critique is an important example of the use of the term.
Broadly this article must be an article about the term, and its application and NOT about the administrations to which it has been applied. It isn't so much a concept as a label applied to imply certain things.
I'm also unhappy with us saying things like "political machines exist elsewhere although they are called different things". If the term isn't being used of those other regimes, then it is irrelevant. We could only record that similar pejorative terms might exist, but we shouldn't more from there to imply that regimes called these other things are "political machines", because then we are certainly into POV. It isn't going to be enough to reference any accusations that something is a political regime, we need to directly attribute the accusations. Anyway, just some thoughts.-- Scott Mac (Doc) 17:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I disagree that "political machine" is anywhere near as pejorative as some would claim. It is synomymous with "political organization" over most of the US, with the imputation that the organization is as efficient as a "machine." It does not necessarily imply corruption to be sure. Wordnet states: "a group that controls the activities of a political party; 'he was endorsed by the Democratic machine.'" See alao The Yale Review [1] . And several thousand more refs. Some places even had a "dual machine" where both major parties were in collusion. Collect ( talk) 18:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, this is like saying "We can't call the United States a democracy - we can only report that some people call it a democracy, because anything else isn't neutral." There are a lot of descriptive terms in political science that imply something about the system being described - not all of those implications are positive, but that doesn't mean we can't use the terms. The "political machine" is a common, perhaps the most common, system for maintaining political control in the history of governance. Obviously the term isn't that old, and we're using it in a more narrow sense here - but the fact is that describing a mechanism of political power is not pejorative of itself. These "authors" you mention are some of the most respected scholars of political science, their books and articles are published by academic journals and universities. They're not people off the street saying "Oi, that party is practically a machine!" They're experts, and we should describe "political machine" according to how they describe it. Avruch T 18:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
(ec with someone) Broadly this article must be an article about the term, and its application and NOT about the administrations to which it has been applied.(Scott Mac (Doc) 17:38, 6 Dec) Well, you have to describe examples of it in order to cover the subject. The two most famous political machines in the U.S. were Tammany Hall (late 18th century to early/mid 20th century) and Chicago, especially under the first Mayor Daley. Nearly all of the most famous people involved in political machines are dead. The idea that political machines are never defended is not correct. I think it's pretty universally acknowledged as something ignoble, but there are serious defenders of the existence of political machines as relatively efficient providers of government services (the idea is that, for instance, the ward bosses in Chicago are accountable to their political bosses and therefore will provide you, the common citizen, with good municipal services in exchange for your support). Again, sources can show all this, so perhaps providing sources is a more efficient way to reply here.
I disagree that the article must be about the term, not the phenomenon. Safire, a word columnist for the New York Times and former polticial columnist, simply states that the Japanese term is the word for political machine in that country. I've just been flipping through Party Politics in the Age of Caesar by Lily Ross Taylor, and her description of the patron-client system in the Roman Republic is so close to the Britannica and Safire definitions that it appears to be the same thing, but I'll look into it further before proposing to add something along those lines. We can still include information about systems that are either identical or related, and let sourcing decide which it is. -- Noroton ( talk) 19:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I mentioned Safire at the AFD discussion not only because xyr entry for "machine politics" is in the style of an encyclopaedia article, but also because it gives a fair guide to neutrality as well. I'm reading the 2008 edition, and I don't know what the 1978 edition says, but the 2008 edition, in the penultimate paragraph, presents a pretty-much neutral account of two disparate views, one pejorative one not, on what political machines are. (It's the paragraph that has "To the reformer […] to a regular […].", for reference.) Uncle G ( talk) 12:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Political machine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:23, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
The terms "machine" and "boss" in the 19th century were negative epithets used by their reform-minded opponents. However in the 20th century these became standard terms for scholars and analysts who sometimes emphasized their positive contributions. See Alan Lessoff and James J. Connolly, "From political insult to political theory: The boss, the machine, and the pluralist city." Journal of Policy History 25.2 (2013): 139-172 DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/S0898030613000018. Rjensen ( talk) 20:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 5 December 2008. The result of the discussion was Nomination withdrawn. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
You make no difference between a political party and a political machine !!! Guys, include the difference in the definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.4.6 ( talk) 02:18, 20 October 2010 (UTC) This should really not be a U.S.-specific article. Certainly relevant to Brazil, and Mexico's PRI was for years the ultimate political machine. And I'm sure it exists in dozens of other countries. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:00, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Internationally, and especially in Latin America, the key word in looking for material on this is "clientelism" (Spanish "clientelismo"). -- Jmabel | Talk 07:07, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Clientelism should have its own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.165.209.92 ( talk • contribs) 13 Dec 2005
Not yet, why is he even listed in the historical list??
I have noticed the term "political machine" being used in a modern context to describe tight-knit party organizations in modern cities and suburbs. For example, Tom Delay is said to have a political machine in Texas. Should the use of the term in this context be discussed on this page? Someone might come to this page having seen the term in a newspaper or heard in on the radio or TV used to describe a present-day political structure. Maybe this should be addressed? Griot 17:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)Griot
Griot, it seems to me that your recent edit tilts this awfully far in favor of machine politics. It may have previously been too biased the other way.
It would be good if someone would seek a happy medium, preferably with cited praise and criticism of machine politics. - Jmabel | Talk 20:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Why on earth do we have three external links about one race in Parma, Ohio, complete with a link caption telling us what to "notice"? This is not useful on a global scale for someone looking up political machine. In the worldwide scheme of things, Parma is pretty small change. I say move this stuff to the article on Parma, Ohio & make one link to that article from this one. - Jmabel | Talk 17:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
This is the most irresponsible article I have ever found on wikipedia. Please post some sources for this machine theory. There are hundreds of books written on clientelism, several of which sit on my shelf, and none of them mention any nonsense about a "political machine." I have been a student of political science, studying clientelistic relationships, for many years, and I have never heard the concept "political machine" linked to the peer-reviewed scholarly work out there on clientelism. Admittedly, I haven't read everything on the topic, so if someone could just please post a few sources on this concept, I will gladly go out and read them and if necessary reconcile my present doubts. I will also look into the matter on my own. Otherwise, I am going to have to insist on the creation of a separate page for clientelism, and I will do it myself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.57.48.235 ( talk • contribs) 24 September 2006.
While some of this is quite accurate, the article is way under-cited (e.g. who says the Irish uniquely benefitted and other immigrant groups did not?), and many of the things that do have citation are sloppily cited (e.g. books mentioned, but no page numbers for the relevant passages). Also, some of it is so poorly worded I can't make out what it means to say: I cannot decipher "this view often coincided with a lack of period alternatives."
This could be greatly improved by someone willing to put some time into it. - Jmabel | Talk 06:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't an option to the Political Machine (game) here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.184.19 ( talk) 21:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
What about the political machine of Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? You often hear them talk of the Clinton Machine; I'm sure it deserves a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.116.3 ( talk) 18:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I have an issue with Robert M. La Follette, Sr. being on this list. If you have done any research on him, you will learn that he fought the political machine, and was an enemy of Boss politics. If no one can provide a rationale reason as to why he belongs here, I'll remove him Thursday (UTC). -- False Prophet ( talk) 02:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
"political machine" and "machine politics" are simply pejorative labels. To say anyone falls into this category is simply POV - all we could do is say that someone was once accused it and no more. The article needs substantial rewriting to make it neutral.-- Scott MacDonald ( talk) 15:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Is actually an extended play on the powers of bureaucrats, and has no relationship with "political machine" as found in the US. FWIW, Ben Franklin set up one of the first political machines in the US -- the "Junto" in Philadelphia. Collect ( talk) 19:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Retrieved from these search results. Avruch T 22:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
There were some citations listed as further reading in the article, as well. Uncle G ( talk) 14:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I thought this rewrite of the top section, adding a new section, "Definition", would be noncontroversial because it seemed to meet the objections previously made. It adds sourcing, removes some comments I didn't see reflected in sources, and I tried not to state anything controversial (or where I thought there would be objetions). Any statements in the first paragraph are either too commonsensical to bother sourcing or have sources further down. Please look at the Encyclopedia Britannica article linked to in the footnotes and see the quotes from the Safire source. I don't understand in the "The problems with this article" discussion, below, where the continuing objections aren't already answered here.
OK, let me lay out where I'm coming from. "Political machine", I think we agree is a pejorative term. It is a label that some people have applied to certain politicians and political infrastructures at varying times. We can perhaps record a) what the term generally implies by those who use it (requires sources) b) notable instances of its use and regimes to which it has often been applied.
What we must not do is actually call any particular regime a "political machine" - that would be POV and labelling. I realise that there are sources on "political machines", but ultimately there are simply authors discussing particular organisations, or trends within a number of administrations under the title. So we can say "Bob Smith called the administration of mayor x, a political machine, because according to Smith it...". But ultimately that's only notable if Smith is notable, and his critique is an important example of the use of the term.
Broadly this article must be an article about the term, and its application and NOT about the administrations to which it has been applied. It isn't so much a concept as a label applied to imply certain things.
I'm also unhappy with us saying things like "political machines exist elsewhere although they are called different things". If the term isn't being used of those other regimes, then it is irrelevant. We could only record that similar pejorative terms might exist, but we shouldn't more from there to imply that regimes called these other things are "political machines", because then we are certainly into POV. It isn't going to be enough to reference any accusations that something is a political regime, we need to directly attribute the accusations. Anyway, just some thoughts.-- Scott Mac (Doc) 17:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I disagree that "political machine" is anywhere near as pejorative as some would claim. It is synomymous with "political organization" over most of the US, with the imputation that the organization is as efficient as a "machine." It does not necessarily imply corruption to be sure. Wordnet states: "a group that controls the activities of a political party; 'he was endorsed by the Democratic machine.'" See alao The Yale Review [1] . And several thousand more refs. Some places even had a "dual machine" where both major parties were in collusion. Collect ( talk) 18:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, this is like saying "We can't call the United States a democracy - we can only report that some people call it a democracy, because anything else isn't neutral." There are a lot of descriptive terms in political science that imply something about the system being described - not all of those implications are positive, but that doesn't mean we can't use the terms. The "political machine" is a common, perhaps the most common, system for maintaining political control in the history of governance. Obviously the term isn't that old, and we're using it in a more narrow sense here - but the fact is that describing a mechanism of political power is not pejorative of itself. These "authors" you mention are some of the most respected scholars of political science, their books and articles are published by academic journals and universities. They're not people off the street saying "Oi, that party is practically a machine!" They're experts, and we should describe "political machine" according to how they describe it. Avruch T 18:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
(ec with someone) Broadly this article must be an article about the term, and its application and NOT about the administrations to which it has been applied.(Scott Mac (Doc) 17:38, 6 Dec) Well, you have to describe examples of it in order to cover the subject. The two most famous political machines in the U.S. were Tammany Hall (late 18th century to early/mid 20th century) and Chicago, especially under the first Mayor Daley. Nearly all of the most famous people involved in political machines are dead. The idea that political machines are never defended is not correct. I think it's pretty universally acknowledged as something ignoble, but there are serious defenders of the existence of political machines as relatively efficient providers of government services (the idea is that, for instance, the ward bosses in Chicago are accountable to their political bosses and therefore will provide you, the common citizen, with good municipal services in exchange for your support). Again, sources can show all this, so perhaps providing sources is a more efficient way to reply here.
I disagree that the article must be about the term, not the phenomenon. Safire, a word columnist for the New York Times and former polticial columnist, simply states that the Japanese term is the word for political machine in that country. I've just been flipping through Party Politics in the Age of Caesar by Lily Ross Taylor, and her description of the patron-client system in the Roman Republic is so close to the Britannica and Safire definitions that it appears to be the same thing, but I'll look into it further before proposing to add something along those lines. We can still include information about systems that are either identical or related, and let sourcing decide which it is. -- Noroton ( talk) 19:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I mentioned Safire at the AFD discussion not only because xyr entry for "machine politics" is in the style of an encyclopaedia article, but also because it gives a fair guide to neutrality as well. I'm reading the 2008 edition, and I don't know what the 1978 edition says, but the 2008 edition, in the penultimate paragraph, presents a pretty-much neutral account of two disparate views, one pejorative one not, on what political machines are. (It's the paragraph that has "To the reformer […] to a regular […].", for reference.) Uncle G ( talk) 12:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Political machine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:23, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
The terms "machine" and "boss" in the 19th century were negative epithets used by their reform-minded opponents. However in the 20th century these became standard terms for scholars and analysts who sometimes emphasized their positive contributions. See Alan Lessoff and James J. Connolly, "From political insult to political theory: The boss, the machine, and the pluralist city." Journal of Policy History 25.2 (2013): 139-172 DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/S0898030613000018. Rjensen ( talk) 20:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)