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Should the Internet meme section of the article be replaced with the following (between the three dash line on top and bottom):
---
Plummer v. State, along with Bad Elk v. United States, [1] is cited in Internet blogs and discussion groups but often misquoted. [2] A number of fringe websites purport to quote both cases, using the exact same language:
"Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary." Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306 [sic]. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: "Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed." [3]
The above Plummer v. State quotation is a fabrication because the quoted text does not appear in the text of the Plummer opinion. [4] Several other sources note that Bad Elk is no longer good law, [5] what one legal commenter stated was a "bizarre, irrational or merely grossly wrong understanding of law...." [6] Modern sources describe Plummer and Bad Elk as applying when there is an unlawful use of force rather than when there is an unlawful arrest; under contemporary law in the majority of U.S. jurisdictions, a person may not use force to resist an unlawful arrest. [7]
References
--- GregJackP Boomer! 04:01, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Please limit entry to Support or Oppose.
"[t]hey are all crap."Serious engagement please. El_C 14:12, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I don't get this site... I posted facts showing the court case in question is not a meme... The other person quoted a blog... I don't get this site at all... 2600:1700:4000:9F90:49FB:2C24:B495:6FAC ( talk) 18:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Ray Rosas a hispanic man shot 3 of them, legally. "CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas — A Nueces County jury that acquitted a man who shot Corpus Christi police officers executing a raid on his home said a “botched” operation and contradicting testimony led to their decision." https://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/249036006-Man-accused-of-shooting-Texas-officers-aquitted/
Henry Magee killed one as well. "DALLAS — A Central Texas man who shot and killed a sheriff's deputy entering his home will not be charged with capital murder, attorneys said Thursday. A local grand jury declined Wednesday to indict Henry Goedrich Magee for the Dec. 19 death of Burleson County Sgt. Adam Sowders, who was part of a group of investigators executing a search warrant for Magee's rural home." https://www.policeone.com/drug-interdiction-narcotics/articles/6815003-No-murder-charge-for-man-who-fatally-shot-Texas-deputy/
Jessie Murray a black man also has killed one... "Murray’s account of what happened during a 2014 bar fight was that Forest Park police Officer Nathan Adams jumped Murray and Murray accidentally shot and killed Adams. " https://www.ajc.com/news/local/murder-charges-dropped-against-man-trial-for-shooting-death-former-officer/yGKSqDSNl1GUdlBbRcLJ4N/
"Two Maryland police officers were shot while serving a drug-related search warrant at the wrong apartment late Wednesday, according to law enforcement officials. The resident shot the officers as soon as they opened the door, thinking they were home invaders, authorities said. No criminal charges will be filed against the man, Prince George's County Police Chief Hank Stawinski said Thursday." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/maryland-police-shot-prince-georges-county-entering-wrong-home-search-warrant/
Daniel Szabo shot at coast guard members trying to board him and was only charged with failure to stop since the boarding was illegal. "A federal jury has found a man accused of firing at a U.S. Coast Guard crew not guilty of both weapons charges handed down in an indictment by a grand jury in September.
Daniel Michael Szabo, 41, was facing a possible life prison sentence for charges of trying to kill a Coast Guard officer during a boarding and using a firearm while committing a violent crime.
But jurors on April 6 only found Szabo guilty of failing to stop his vessel when ordered to do so by the Coast Guard." https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article71016982.html
Hell Tupac killed 2 cops. Why do you censor info? why call it a meme? This is why people don't respect wiki. "In October 1993, in Atlanta, two brothers and off-duty police officers, Mark and Scott Whitwell, were with their wives celebrating Mrs. Whitwell's passing of the state bar examination. The officers were drunk and in possession of stolen guns. As they crossed the street, a car with Shakur inside passed them or "almost struck them". The Whitwells argued with the driver, Shakur, and the other passengers, who were joined by a second passing car. Shakur shot one officer in the buttocks and the other in the leg, back, or abdomen, according to varying news reports. Mark Whitwell was charged with firing at Shakur's car and later lying to the police during the investigation. Shakur was charged with the shooting. Prosecutors dropped all charges against the parties" It's ironic since its also on your own site... I just don't get these mods. When you cite info/fact and they choose a blog over it. /info/en/?search=Tupac_Shakur#Legal_issues — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4000:9F90:49FB:2C24:B495:6FAC ( talk) 18:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
"The defendant must know that an officer is attempting an arrest. " Nowhere does it say that, literally nowhere, that's your interpretation of the law. But here ill give you the benefit of the doubt. Say it did say that. 2 of my sources cops say they announced themselves. Shooting at a coast guard boat with coast guards on-board, trying to pull you over,ramming them, etc doesn't qualify as "must know that an officer is attempting an arrest." Really... Im sorry, but call me crazy on that one but wow, really? In Magee's case the officers did say they announced themselves.... That was their defense... Why don't you try reading before denying? This is why I called out a lot of mods on this thread. "I believe the evidence also shows that an announcement was made," Renken said. "However, there is not enough evidence that Mr. Magee knew that day that Peace Officers were entering his home." Anyone will say they don't know who is entering their home, Plummer v State/Bad Elk v US be damned. Its just a good defense for a lawyer to present. "but is no longer considered good law in a growing number of jurisdictions. Most states have, either by statute or by case law, removed the unlawful arrest defense for resisting arrest." Plummer v State/Bad Elk v State is a federal ruling. Bad Elk v US it isn't restricted to single states, or a single jurisdiction, it's once again federal. You guys also changed my post there... Yet only the Supreme court or Court of Appeals can overturn a Supreme court decision(s) ,that has never happened here. No one can find it and cite it since it was never stricken down. Hence you using a blog as a citation and/or no citations at all. They(the justices) would have to literally vote on it to change the law. It would be easy to find if it happened. This is another reason why I call this entire article out people don't read and rather go off blog websites. PoliceOne is a police officer website... One of my articles is one of their safety articles... The fact you call it a meme when multiple sources contradict that is just insane to me. Please do not respond to me/my posts again, I don't like dealing with trolls(someone who won't even read my sources) I will also refrain from commenting towards you. (Enjoy the last word if you so choose)
"Plummer v. State, along with Bad Elk v. United States,[19] is cited in Internet blogs and discussion groups but often misquoted.[20] The misquote is that "citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary" although the Plummer quotation is a fabrication because the quoted text does not appear in the text of the Plummer opinion" It's funny since if you pull the case up its right there... Page 537/538. If I can upload the PDF of the original case I can as well... https://casetext.com/case/john-bad-elk-v-united-states
The following sentence should be removed from the lead:
It reads like the author is trying to tell the reader that if they learned about Plummer v. State from the internet, then what they read is probably an urban myth. I think this accusatory language should not be in the lead. I think an objective summary of the facts of the case would be better suited for this article's lead. If there is a widespread false belief on the internet related to this case, it can be addressed in later sections. Putting it in the lead makes it seem like it is central to the topic, which in this case I don't think it is. Additionally, the distinction between the allegedly widespread myth and the reality of the court decision is a fairly small one, which is another reason why I think it is wrong to make "urban myth" the focal point of this article.
Parthian Scribe 04:07, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Plummer v. State article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
This article was nominated for deletion on 17 March 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the Internet meme section of the article be replaced with the following (between the three dash line on top and bottom):
---
Plummer v. State, along with Bad Elk v. United States, [1] is cited in Internet blogs and discussion groups but often misquoted. [2] A number of fringe websites purport to quote both cases, using the exact same language:
"Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary." Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306 [sic]. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: "Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed." [3]
The above Plummer v. State quotation is a fabrication because the quoted text does not appear in the text of the Plummer opinion. [4] Several other sources note that Bad Elk is no longer good law, [5] what one legal commenter stated was a "bizarre, irrational or merely grossly wrong understanding of law...." [6] Modern sources describe Plummer and Bad Elk as applying when there is an unlawful use of force rather than when there is an unlawful arrest; under contemporary law in the majority of U.S. jurisdictions, a person may not use force to resist an unlawful arrest. [7]
References
--- GregJackP Boomer! 04:01, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Please limit entry to Support or Oppose.
"[t]hey are all crap."Serious engagement please. El_C 14:12, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I don't get this site... I posted facts showing the court case in question is not a meme... The other person quoted a blog... I don't get this site at all... 2600:1700:4000:9F90:49FB:2C24:B495:6FAC ( talk) 18:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Ray Rosas a hispanic man shot 3 of them, legally. "CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas — A Nueces County jury that acquitted a man who shot Corpus Christi police officers executing a raid on his home said a “botched” operation and contradicting testimony led to their decision." https://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/249036006-Man-accused-of-shooting-Texas-officers-aquitted/
Henry Magee killed one as well. "DALLAS — A Central Texas man who shot and killed a sheriff's deputy entering his home will not be charged with capital murder, attorneys said Thursday. A local grand jury declined Wednesday to indict Henry Goedrich Magee for the Dec. 19 death of Burleson County Sgt. Adam Sowders, who was part of a group of investigators executing a search warrant for Magee's rural home." https://www.policeone.com/drug-interdiction-narcotics/articles/6815003-No-murder-charge-for-man-who-fatally-shot-Texas-deputy/
Jessie Murray a black man also has killed one... "Murray’s account of what happened during a 2014 bar fight was that Forest Park police Officer Nathan Adams jumped Murray and Murray accidentally shot and killed Adams. " https://www.ajc.com/news/local/murder-charges-dropped-against-man-trial-for-shooting-death-former-officer/yGKSqDSNl1GUdlBbRcLJ4N/
"Two Maryland police officers were shot while serving a drug-related search warrant at the wrong apartment late Wednesday, according to law enforcement officials. The resident shot the officers as soon as they opened the door, thinking they were home invaders, authorities said. No criminal charges will be filed against the man, Prince George's County Police Chief Hank Stawinski said Thursday." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/maryland-police-shot-prince-georges-county-entering-wrong-home-search-warrant/
Daniel Szabo shot at coast guard members trying to board him and was only charged with failure to stop since the boarding was illegal. "A federal jury has found a man accused of firing at a U.S. Coast Guard crew not guilty of both weapons charges handed down in an indictment by a grand jury in September.
Daniel Michael Szabo, 41, was facing a possible life prison sentence for charges of trying to kill a Coast Guard officer during a boarding and using a firearm while committing a violent crime.
But jurors on April 6 only found Szabo guilty of failing to stop his vessel when ordered to do so by the Coast Guard." https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article71016982.html
Hell Tupac killed 2 cops. Why do you censor info? why call it a meme? This is why people don't respect wiki. "In October 1993, in Atlanta, two brothers and off-duty police officers, Mark and Scott Whitwell, were with their wives celebrating Mrs. Whitwell's passing of the state bar examination. The officers were drunk and in possession of stolen guns. As they crossed the street, a car with Shakur inside passed them or "almost struck them". The Whitwells argued with the driver, Shakur, and the other passengers, who were joined by a second passing car. Shakur shot one officer in the buttocks and the other in the leg, back, or abdomen, according to varying news reports. Mark Whitwell was charged with firing at Shakur's car and later lying to the police during the investigation. Shakur was charged with the shooting. Prosecutors dropped all charges against the parties" It's ironic since its also on your own site... I just don't get these mods. When you cite info/fact and they choose a blog over it. /info/en/?search=Tupac_Shakur#Legal_issues — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4000:9F90:49FB:2C24:B495:6FAC ( talk) 18:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
"The defendant must know that an officer is attempting an arrest. " Nowhere does it say that, literally nowhere, that's your interpretation of the law. But here ill give you the benefit of the doubt. Say it did say that. 2 of my sources cops say they announced themselves. Shooting at a coast guard boat with coast guards on-board, trying to pull you over,ramming them, etc doesn't qualify as "must know that an officer is attempting an arrest." Really... Im sorry, but call me crazy on that one but wow, really? In Magee's case the officers did say they announced themselves.... That was their defense... Why don't you try reading before denying? This is why I called out a lot of mods on this thread. "I believe the evidence also shows that an announcement was made," Renken said. "However, there is not enough evidence that Mr. Magee knew that day that Peace Officers were entering his home." Anyone will say they don't know who is entering their home, Plummer v State/Bad Elk v US be damned. Its just a good defense for a lawyer to present. "but is no longer considered good law in a growing number of jurisdictions. Most states have, either by statute or by case law, removed the unlawful arrest defense for resisting arrest." Plummer v State/Bad Elk v State is a federal ruling. Bad Elk v US it isn't restricted to single states, or a single jurisdiction, it's once again federal. You guys also changed my post there... Yet only the Supreme court or Court of Appeals can overturn a Supreme court decision(s) ,that has never happened here. No one can find it and cite it since it was never stricken down. Hence you using a blog as a citation and/or no citations at all. They(the justices) would have to literally vote on it to change the law. It would be easy to find if it happened. This is another reason why I call this entire article out people don't read and rather go off blog websites. PoliceOne is a police officer website... One of my articles is one of their safety articles... The fact you call it a meme when multiple sources contradict that is just insane to me. Please do not respond to me/my posts again, I don't like dealing with trolls(someone who won't even read my sources) I will also refrain from commenting towards you. (Enjoy the last word if you so choose)
"Plummer v. State, along with Bad Elk v. United States,[19] is cited in Internet blogs and discussion groups but often misquoted.[20] The misquote is that "citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary" although the Plummer quotation is a fabrication because the quoted text does not appear in the text of the Plummer opinion" It's funny since if you pull the case up its right there... Page 537/538. If I can upload the PDF of the original case I can as well... https://casetext.com/case/john-bad-elk-v-united-states
The following sentence should be removed from the lead:
It reads like the author is trying to tell the reader that if they learned about Plummer v. State from the internet, then what they read is probably an urban myth. I think this accusatory language should not be in the lead. I think an objective summary of the facts of the case would be better suited for this article's lead. If there is a widespread false belief on the internet related to this case, it can be addressed in later sections. Putting it in the lead makes it seem like it is central to the topic, which in this case I don't think it is. Additionally, the distinction between the allegedly widespread myth and the reality of the court decision is a fairly small one, which is another reason why I think it is wrong to make "urban myth" the focal point of this article.
Parthian Scribe 04:07, 7 February 2021 (UTC)