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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Kamalam. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 24#Kamalam until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
MB
19:35, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Currently the list of nutrients shows more than 82 grams of carbohydrates in 100 grams of fruit, that is ridiculous. You can easily feel that 82% or so of fruit pulp is water, not carbohydrates or any other solid substance. Please somebody give the true values. 81.186.20.166 ( talk) 12:38, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Why has the ENGLISH article title been changed to the Mexican Spanish name for this fruit? Stop the politically correct revisionism. This is a dragon fruit in English. I am from the US and I don't know a single English speaking American who would call this a pitaya except perhaps in the SW or California...which is not the majority of America. Alexandermoir ( talk) 15:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
The importance of "pitaya" has recently been edited to Top Importance for 4 projects; was this on purpose? Nicholaswei ( talk) 06:28, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. Given that it was not shown by those in support of this move that dragon fruit is a synonym for pitaya, with some evidence presented that in fact dragon fruit is just one variety, with the article covering many others, I can't find in favour of this move request. If more evidence is presented, a new RM could be opened down the line. — Amakuru ( talk) 17:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Pitaya → Dragon fruit – As editors @ Arminden:, @ Alexandermoir: above noted, the phrase "dragon fruit" is distinctly more popular in english than "pitaya" is, though it's understandable why it was originally named that. Google ngrams shows that pitaya or pitahaya have remained consistently popular for the past several decades, while the term dragon fruit appeared meaningfully in the 1990s and grew explosively in popularity, surpassing both other terms in 2009, to the point where in 2023 it's nearly twice as popular as pitaya and pitahaya combined. When the article was created in 2004, pitaya and pitahaya were similarly popular, with dragon fruit holding a solid third place, but now in both american and british english, the dragon fruit holds a clear dominance in the modern day.
I don't have a good citation for this, but looking around the internet, I would guess that pitaya and pitahaya have had their consistent popularity as a loan word from English-speaking Mexicans already familiar with its Spanish name, but upon being popularized (as a 'health food' or otherwise) in the 2000s in the anglosphere, most English speakers newly aware of the fruit chose the domestic term instead. And the rest is history, if fairly recent history. exoplanetaryscience ( talk) 07:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 13:37, 4 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans ( talk) 11:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
For the last 20 days, "Pitaya" got an average of 3,250 views a day in Wikipedia. The redirect "Dragon fruit" got an average of 23 hits a day, "Dragonfruit" got 13 hits a day, "Dragon Fruit" got one hit a day, and "Pitahaya" got 9 hits a day, all passing through to "Pitaya". Other redirects to "Pitaya" got much fewer than one hit per day. The number of users searching for "Dragon fruit", "Dragonfruit", or "Dragon Fruit" on Wikipedia in the last 20 days was barely more than 1% of the number who reached the article for "Pitaya". This indicates that readers are much more likely to be looking for "Pitaya" than for "Dragon fruit". - Donald Albury 12:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
it was called dragon fruit: but what was "it"? My contention is that what is sold under the English name "dragon fruit" is the fruit of Selenicereus, not the fruit of other cacti. Peter coxhead ( talk) 06:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
As of now, we have:
Pitaya = usually Stenocereus
Pitahaya = Selenicereus (formerly Hylocereus), aka dragon fruit.
We need solid sources. Who has the E. Britannica or the Oxford ED on the shelf? Or online access to them?
Free online versions are never as reliable, but still:
Oxford Reference online has only Hylocereus, so d.f. = pitahya (Selenicereus, ex Hylocereus)( here).
Cambridge Dictionary only has the opposite, pitaya ( here).
Collins online at first also has pitahia, but then widens it hugely ( here): "1. any giant cactus of Central America and the SW United States, esp the saguaro [Carnegiea gigantea] ... 2. the edible red pulpy fruit of such cacti"
But maybe they just can't keep the 2 or more Mexicanos locos apart! Which is as well, meaning that "dragon fruit" is all English-speakers reliably react to.
Merriam-Webster online has both and even more ["cacti (as of the genera Selenicereus, Hylocereus, or Sternocereus)"] ( here). Which means that it lists Selenicereus and Hylocereus as 2 different gena (our art. says they're the same), and misspells Stenocereus by adding an r, Sternocereus. Steno- is narrow, close, while sterno- means pertaining to the sternum :)
In the end, there's only one conclusion: dragon fruit is the only common denominator across BE, AE, dictionaries and vernacular. My point fron the start :) Cheers Arminden ( talk) 21:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
(Common English term X) covers a range of (this & that). Botanists differentiate between (term A), (term B), (term C)is exactly what WP:NOTADICTIONARY forbids as an article. Our job is to determine the underlying concepts in the
range of (this & that)and construct articles about them, not to explain the range of use of English words and phrases. Thus we don't have a single article at "Berry" because the English word has too wide a range of meaning, we have Berry and Berry (botany). Peter coxhead ( talk) 11:51, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Kamalam. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 24#Kamalam until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
MB
19:35, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Currently the list of nutrients shows more than 82 grams of carbohydrates in 100 grams of fruit, that is ridiculous. You can easily feel that 82% or so of fruit pulp is water, not carbohydrates or any other solid substance. Please somebody give the true values. 81.186.20.166 ( talk) 12:38, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Why has the ENGLISH article title been changed to the Mexican Spanish name for this fruit? Stop the politically correct revisionism. This is a dragon fruit in English. I am from the US and I don't know a single English speaking American who would call this a pitaya except perhaps in the SW or California...which is not the majority of America. Alexandermoir ( talk) 15:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
The importance of "pitaya" has recently been edited to Top Importance for 4 projects; was this on purpose? Nicholaswei ( talk) 06:28, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. Given that it was not shown by those in support of this move that dragon fruit is a synonym for pitaya, with some evidence presented that in fact dragon fruit is just one variety, with the article covering many others, I can't find in favour of this move request. If more evidence is presented, a new RM could be opened down the line. — Amakuru ( talk) 17:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Pitaya → Dragon fruit – As editors @ Arminden:, @ Alexandermoir: above noted, the phrase "dragon fruit" is distinctly more popular in english than "pitaya" is, though it's understandable why it was originally named that. Google ngrams shows that pitaya or pitahaya have remained consistently popular for the past several decades, while the term dragon fruit appeared meaningfully in the 1990s and grew explosively in popularity, surpassing both other terms in 2009, to the point where in 2023 it's nearly twice as popular as pitaya and pitahaya combined. When the article was created in 2004, pitaya and pitahaya were similarly popular, with dragon fruit holding a solid third place, but now in both american and british english, the dragon fruit holds a clear dominance in the modern day.
I don't have a good citation for this, but looking around the internet, I would guess that pitaya and pitahaya have had their consistent popularity as a loan word from English-speaking Mexicans already familiar with its Spanish name, but upon being popularized (as a 'health food' or otherwise) in the 2000s in the anglosphere, most English speakers newly aware of the fruit chose the domestic term instead. And the rest is history, if fairly recent history. exoplanetaryscience ( talk) 07:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 13:37, 4 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans ( talk) 11:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
For the last 20 days, "Pitaya" got an average of 3,250 views a day in Wikipedia. The redirect "Dragon fruit" got an average of 23 hits a day, "Dragonfruit" got 13 hits a day, "Dragon Fruit" got one hit a day, and "Pitahaya" got 9 hits a day, all passing through to "Pitaya". Other redirects to "Pitaya" got much fewer than one hit per day. The number of users searching for "Dragon fruit", "Dragonfruit", or "Dragon Fruit" on Wikipedia in the last 20 days was barely more than 1% of the number who reached the article for "Pitaya". This indicates that readers are much more likely to be looking for "Pitaya" than for "Dragon fruit". - Donald Albury 12:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
it was called dragon fruit: but what was "it"? My contention is that what is sold under the English name "dragon fruit" is the fruit of Selenicereus, not the fruit of other cacti. Peter coxhead ( talk) 06:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
As of now, we have:
Pitaya = usually Stenocereus
Pitahaya = Selenicereus (formerly Hylocereus), aka dragon fruit.
We need solid sources. Who has the E. Britannica or the Oxford ED on the shelf? Or online access to them?
Free online versions are never as reliable, but still:
Oxford Reference online has only Hylocereus, so d.f. = pitahya (Selenicereus, ex Hylocereus)( here).
Cambridge Dictionary only has the opposite, pitaya ( here).
Collins online at first also has pitahia, but then widens it hugely ( here): "1. any giant cactus of Central America and the SW United States, esp the saguaro [Carnegiea gigantea] ... 2. the edible red pulpy fruit of such cacti"
But maybe they just can't keep the 2 or more Mexicanos locos apart! Which is as well, meaning that "dragon fruit" is all English-speakers reliably react to.
Merriam-Webster online has both and even more ["cacti (as of the genera Selenicereus, Hylocereus, or Sternocereus)"] ( here). Which means that it lists Selenicereus and Hylocereus as 2 different gena (our art. says they're the same), and misspells Stenocereus by adding an r, Sternocereus. Steno- is narrow, close, while sterno- means pertaining to the sternum :)
In the end, there's only one conclusion: dragon fruit is the only common denominator across BE, AE, dictionaries and vernacular. My point fron the start :) Cheers Arminden ( talk) 21:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
(Common English term X) covers a range of (this & that). Botanists differentiate between (term A), (term B), (term C)is exactly what WP:NOTADICTIONARY forbids as an article. Our job is to determine the underlying concepts in the
range of (this & that)and construct articles about them, not to explain the range of use of English words and phrases. Thus we don't have a single article at "Berry" because the English word has too wide a range of meaning, we have Berry and Berry (botany). Peter coxhead ( talk) 11:51, 28 October 2023 (UTC)