![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi there, anonymous user 82.39.129.86 - why not get yourself a username (it's free and it takes about 5 seconds) so it's easier to discuss pages? Thanks for the commentary about the name of sabiniana/sabineana - it hasn't caught on very well yet, though - sabiniana references outnumber sabineana over 100:1 on Google.
It seems a pity that "Gray Pine" rather than "Foothill Pine" is the dominant name (actually, "Digger Pine" is still the most often used, it appears) - since the tree is not obviously grey, but obviously does grow on the Foothills. However, usage statistics agree with the edits you made, except for the Pine-Oak community where there is a 6:1 majority in favour of calling it Foothill Pine.
Anonymous edit commenting on use of names was from me - sorry, I didn't realise my login had timed out. seglea 04:58, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Not having the protologue at hand, it's not clear to me whether sabiniana => sabineana is correction of a typographic or orthographic error. ICBN 60.1 Ex. 1 concerns intentional spellings; sabiniana could not be corrected as a typographic error if it were intentional. It makes more sense to correct it as an orthographic error (and I have modified the article to that end), but even so, latinizing Sabine to Sabinius would result in sabiniana (cf. 60.7, 60C.2). Does anyone have a reference for the first correction to sabineana?-- Curtis Clark 03:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined to dispute the name change. Here is the relevant rule book, article 60 of the ICBN: http://ibot.sav.sk/icbn/frameset/0065Ch7OaGoNSec1a60.htm Since people have been writing "sabiniana" for a rather long time, Article 60.1 is of key importance, stating "The original spelling of a name or epithet is to be retained," with certain exceptions. The text being cited in support of the epithet "sabineana" is not among those exceptions, and in fact, is not a rule but a recommendation (Recommendation 60C). So, you CAN change the spelling, but don't expect everyone else to play along. Changing the spelling of this epithet strikes me as a rather pointless gesture considering the thousands of citations that use the current spelling, and as a point of historic interest, the Latinizing of a scientist's name was commonly regarded as honorific when Douglas' new pine was named for Sabine. Thus the Latinized spelling is not only authorized under the Code, but is appropriate. For now I'll leave the text, but unless someone has a serious problem with this, I will further revise it in a week or two. -- -- Conifers ( talk) 23:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I edited this to change the sort order on the page for the Category:Pinus. It had been set to alphabetize under Pine. That might make sense for categories where there are a lot of trees and a few of them are pines; then all the pines group together. But on the page where everything is a pine, it made more sense to alphabetize under Gray. 140.147.236.194 ( talk) 13:01, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
The result of the move request was: page moved to Pinus sabiniana. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 22:59, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Gray Pine →
Pinus sabineana — As noted in the article lede, multiple common names exist.
Google Scholar finds twice as many occurrences of Pinus sabiniana than of "Gray Pine".
[1]
[2] Relisted.
Arbitrarily0 (
talk) 15:44, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Walter Siegmund
(talk)
04:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Speaking from the reference point of living amongst this plant for half a century with digger pine embedded as a common name, I'm still slow to promptly recognize grey pine as P. sab. I believe all/most plant species articles are best internationally served by the botanical name, with all the common names set to redirect directly to the article, for any reader to find it.
With 2 species spellings, pasted in below is the results of much online research. In doing that at USDA & Jepson sites, Pinus sabineana came back with "no results." If two of the major authorities 'in its range' continue to use the original name the standard seems set for now to use P. sabiniana in this article and potential new title.
Google scholar:
-- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Google:
References
usdaRef
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).calflora
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I see considerable support for renaming the article to its scientific name. Labattblueboy opposes, but may have overlooked the guidance of Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of life: "In cases where there is a formal common name (e.g. birds), or when common names are well-known and reasonably unique (e.g. "Cuvier's dwarf caiman"), they should be used for article titles. Scientific names should be used otherwise." Labattblueboy's counterproposal of "Gray Pine or Digger Pine" seems to acknowledge that the common name is not reasonably unique.
The policy,
WP:TITLE, states "Articles are normally titled using the name which is most commonly used to refer to the subject of the article in English-language reliable sources." I think that Born2cycle and Rkitko are correct that the scholarly literature, i.e., reliable sources, uses the scientific name. This is by a margin of 2 to 1. Look2See1 has added content on names used in important sources for the article. Born2cycle Look2See1 and Rkitko and I support moving the article to its scientific name, whatever that may be; please see below. Labattblueboy opposes this move, but doesn't cite policy or guidance in support of his position. Born2cycle opposes the move to P. sabineana, but has not yet expressed an opinion on P. sabiniana. --
Walter Siegmund
(talk)
16:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Please see GRIN.
[3] It uses P. sabiniana and says, "the spelling of the specific epithet agrees with Vienna ICBN Rec. 60C.2 (Sabine from "sabinus"), and thus is not correctible under Art. 60.11". This would seem to me to be a reliable source, when combined with the sources that Born2cycle Look2See1 has compiled. I discount USDA PLANTS somewhat; it lags other similar sources. But Jepson is usually reliable and more current, in my experience.
Walter Siegmund
(talk)
16:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Winter 2011, Michael Taylor (co-discoverer of Hyperion) and I met a man, Frank Callahan (naturalist) in southern Oregon to look some Ponderosa Pines. On the way out of the National Forest, Frank showed us an indigenous Digger Pine about west of Merlin & Grants Pass, Oregon, a stone's throw from the Rogue River. Mdvaden ( talk) 04:38, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi there, anonymous user 82.39.129.86 - why not get yourself a username (it's free and it takes about 5 seconds) so it's easier to discuss pages? Thanks for the commentary about the name of sabiniana/sabineana - it hasn't caught on very well yet, though - sabiniana references outnumber sabineana over 100:1 on Google.
It seems a pity that "Gray Pine" rather than "Foothill Pine" is the dominant name (actually, "Digger Pine" is still the most often used, it appears) - since the tree is not obviously grey, but obviously does grow on the Foothills. However, usage statistics agree with the edits you made, except for the Pine-Oak community where there is a 6:1 majority in favour of calling it Foothill Pine.
Anonymous edit commenting on use of names was from me - sorry, I didn't realise my login had timed out. seglea 04:58, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Not having the protologue at hand, it's not clear to me whether sabiniana => sabineana is correction of a typographic or orthographic error. ICBN 60.1 Ex. 1 concerns intentional spellings; sabiniana could not be corrected as a typographic error if it were intentional. It makes more sense to correct it as an orthographic error (and I have modified the article to that end), but even so, latinizing Sabine to Sabinius would result in sabiniana (cf. 60.7, 60C.2). Does anyone have a reference for the first correction to sabineana?-- Curtis Clark 03:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined to dispute the name change. Here is the relevant rule book, article 60 of the ICBN: http://ibot.sav.sk/icbn/frameset/0065Ch7OaGoNSec1a60.htm Since people have been writing "sabiniana" for a rather long time, Article 60.1 is of key importance, stating "The original spelling of a name or epithet is to be retained," with certain exceptions. The text being cited in support of the epithet "sabineana" is not among those exceptions, and in fact, is not a rule but a recommendation (Recommendation 60C). So, you CAN change the spelling, but don't expect everyone else to play along. Changing the spelling of this epithet strikes me as a rather pointless gesture considering the thousands of citations that use the current spelling, and as a point of historic interest, the Latinizing of a scientist's name was commonly regarded as honorific when Douglas' new pine was named for Sabine. Thus the Latinized spelling is not only authorized under the Code, but is appropriate. For now I'll leave the text, but unless someone has a serious problem with this, I will further revise it in a week or two. -- -- Conifers ( talk) 23:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I edited this to change the sort order on the page for the Category:Pinus. It had been set to alphabetize under Pine. That might make sense for categories where there are a lot of trees and a few of them are pines; then all the pines group together. But on the page where everything is a pine, it made more sense to alphabetize under Gray. 140.147.236.194 ( talk) 13:01, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
The result of the move request was: page moved to Pinus sabiniana. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 22:59, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Gray Pine →
Pinus sabineana — As noted in the article lede, multiple common names exist.
Google Scholar finds twice as many occurrences of Pinus sabiniana than of "Gray Pine".
[1]
[2] Relisted.
Arbitrarily0 (
talk) 15:44, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Walter Siegmund
(talk)
04:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Speaking from the reference point of living amongst this plant for half a century with digger pine embedded as a common name, I'm still slow to promptly recognize grey pine as P. sab. I believe all/most plant species articles are best internationally served by the botanical name, with all the common names set to redirect directly to the article, for any reader to find it.
With 2 species spellings, pasted in below is the results of much online research. In doing that at USDA & Jepson sites, Pinus sabineana came back with "no results." If two of the major authorities 'in its range' continue to use the original name the standard seems set for now to use P. sabiniana in this article and potential new title.
Google scholar:
-- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Google:
References
usdaRef
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).calflora
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I see considerable support for renaming the article to its scientific name. Labattblueboy opposes, but may have overlooked the guidance of Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of life: "In cases where there is a formal common name (e.g. birds), or when common names are well-known and reasonably unique (e.g. "Cuvier's dwarf caiman"), they should be used for article titles. Scientific names should be used otherwise." Labattblueboy's counterproposal of "Gray Pine or Digger Pine" seems to acknowledge that the common name is not reasonably unique.
The policy,
WP:TITLE, states "Articles are normally titled using the name which is most commonly used to refer to the subject of the article in English-language reliable sources." I think that Born2cycle and Rkitko are correct that the scholarly literature, i.e., reliable sources, uses the scientific name. This is by a margin of 2 to 1. Look2See1 has added content on names used in important sources for the article. Born2cycle Look2See1 and Rkitko and I support moving the article to its scientific name, whatever that may be; please see below. Labattblueboy opposes this move, but doesn't cite policy or guidance in support of his position. Born2cycle opposes the move to P. sabineana, but has not yet expressed an opinion on P. sabiniana. --
Walter Siegmund
(talk)
16:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Please see GRIN.
[3] It uses P. sabiniana and says, "the spelling of the specific epithet agrees with Vienna ICBN Rec. 60C.2 (Sabine from "sabinus"), and thus is not correctible under Art. 60.11". This would seem to me to be a reliable source, when combined with the sources that Born2cycle Look2See1 has compiled. I discount USDA PLANTS somewhat; it lags other similar sources. But Jepson is usually reliable and more current, in my experience.
Walter Siegmund
(talk)
16:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Winter 2011, Michael Taylor (co-discoverer of Hyperion) and I met a man, Frank Callahan (naturalist) in southern Oregon to look some Ponderosa Pines. On the way out of the National Forest, Frank showed us an indigenous Digger Pine about west of Merlin & Grants Pass, Oregon, a stone's throw from the Rogue River. Mdvaden ( talk) 04:38, 29 May 2011 (UTC)