This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
If Alejandro Toledo, ex-president of Peru, is a moderate leftist, then why wasn't he in the article until I PARTIALLY added him? Mausebru ( talk) 13:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Should social democrats presidents be included in the Pink Tide? Dereck Camacho ( talk) 10:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
I would say:
Stay | Remove | Add |
---|---|---|
|
|
maybe:
|
References
so these presidents which will be removed are either have moderate positions (and don't had good/better relationships to other "pink" countries; PRD (Panama)), turned their party into third way (or are members of centrist organizations like Center-Democratic Integration Group; PRD (Dominican R.), PLD, PRM) or are close to centrist parties than to communist/socialist parties (Convergencia) Braganza ( talk) 15:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Stalin990, Dentren, NoonIcarus, Son of Kenway, Roycebellion243, Bageense, Angele201002, and Sumanuil: what do you think?
Could be, a similar case to Mel Zelaya, althoug Im still dubious on how left wing Bachelet and Lagos really were. Also if this depuration goes along all of them would end as left wing and non is center left which would make the dashes unnecessary. My other doubt is if the Castros and Diez sould be there, considering that they are clearly not part of any wave and are not "pink" either. Dereck Camacho ( talk)---
I see that there are indeed references that include Lagos and Bachelet and see no problem with the inclusions of Surinam and St. Vicent.
I also see that the same discussion is taking place in Portuguese.
My only doubt now is whether Cuba should be included, as someone puts it in Portuguese, is neither part of a wave nor pink. Anyone opposes removing it? For the opposite reason that the social democrats, is not moderate enough.
Also Braganza I think is ok for you to make the suggested changes on Spanish if no one comments. Dereck Camacho ( talk) 02:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Tip: There's a fully referenced list of "Head of the states and governments" and timeline in the Porutguese Wikipedia: pt:Guinada à esquerda. It may contain fewer items, but at least they're all properly referenced. -- Bageense (disc.) 03:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Gabriel Serville won the election, should we include it? Braganza ( talk) 10:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
It is not part of Latin America Liberaltarian12345 ( talk) 14:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
It looks like in the past few months Guyana and Suriname were added and then removed from the list and timeline, with the following leaders in question:
Jagdeo, Ramotar, and Ali are all members of the People's Progressive Party (Guyana), while Bouterse is from National Democratic Party (Suriname). It looks like both parties were originally left-wing parties that have drifted closer to center-left.
Is there an official stance on whether Guyana and Suriname were part of the pink wave? -- BadgerPriest ( talk) 22:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Guatemala should be here with Alvaro Colom.Not so sure about Panama and Dominican Republic,but Suriname,Guayana and Saint Vincent should not be here cause they aren't latin countries.They mostly belong to the british commonwealth,speak non-latin languages,are mostly different ethnically and have an altogether different history.
They are not part of Latin America tho https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JN9zndL_eCA&feature=youtu.be Liberaltarian12345 ( talk) 14:21, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of the fact that these countries have indeed been ruled by the left,the term Pink Tide refers very specifically to a Latin American phenomenon,and Anglo or Dutch caribbean are not part of Latin America,as the very Wikipedia page on Latin America defines it. Moreover,Suriname and the commonwealth caribbean countries do not share the historical or social traits that are common to Ibero-America nor do they speak a latin language (like Haiti,for example),therefore i strongly suggest that Guyana,Suriname and Saint Vincent and Grenadines be removed because their inclusion mischaracterizes the whole article.
Lsiai-OA9U\AJn ( talk) 05:46, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
There has obviously been a lot of debate with this subject. I would like to address them point by point to try and streamline it.
First of all let us identify WHAT IS THE PINK TIDE. Pink Tide: "a political wave and perception of a turn towards left-wing governments in Latin American democracies moving away from the neoliberal economic model at the start of the 21st century" buy that notion Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, Saint Vincent, and Cuba should not be included because A: Cuba is not a democracy B: Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, Saint Vincent are not Latin American countries https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=JN9zndL_eCA&feature=youtu.be
Who counts and who doesn't: Even excluding the countries that are contentious, there seems to be debate on who counts as Pink Tide and who doesn't:
Some people think the Center-Left should be excluded like Ricardo Lagos and Michelle Blanchet. My case for them remaining is that due to Pinochet essentially being one of the founders of Neoliberalism, the shift to the Left is a part of the Pink Tide.
Alejandro Toledo seems to have contention about shifting to the right during his tenure, however people like Daniel Ortega and Ollanta Humala do not seem to have that problem. The explanation there is that Toledo's party was not really explicitly leftist, meanwhile Ortega and Humala's were. And unlike someone like Lenin Moreno, the shift was not drastic enough to be noticeable and they still campaign as Leftists
MY PROPOSED PINK TIDE LIST: Néstor Kirchner (2003–2007) Cristina Fernández de Kirchner (2007–2015) Alberto Fernández (2019–present) Evo Morales (2006–2019) Luis Arce (2020–present) Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (2003–2011) Dilma Rousseff (2011–2016) Ricardo Lagos* (2000–2006) Michelle Bachelet* (2006–2010; 2014–2018) Rafael Correa (2007–2017) Mauricio Funes* (2009–2014) Salvador Sánchez Cerén (2014–2019) Manuel Zelaya (2006–2009) Andrés Manuel López Obrador* (2018–present) Daniel Ortega (2007–present) Fernando Lugo* (2008–2012) Ollanta Humala* (2011–2016) Pedro Castillo (2021–present) Tabaré Vázquez* (2005–2010; 2015–2020) José Mujica (2010–2015) Hugo Chávez (1999–2013) Nicolás Maduro‡ (2013–present)
I have no prefrence on whether or not Martín Torrijos or Laurentino Cortizo remain on
I strongly agree,adding Guyana,Suriname and so on is a very crass mistake.
On the other hand,due to the very conservative political stablishment in Guatemala,i'd add Alvaro Colom,that's because i dont think the spirit of the Pink Tide is not wheter the government was radical or not,but simply if it moved the counttry leftwards,doesn't really metter how much.
177.66.106.14 (
talk)
01:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
There is also the interperetation that Pink Tide leaders associate with eachother frequently that might make some people reconsider their choices. That is only partially relevant in the matter Liberaltarian12345 ( talk) 05:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Maybe we should delete this list altogether,the more important names are mentioned elsewhere on the article 177.66.106.14 ( talk) 22:35, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
But would that not contradict with the Definition of Pink Tide? Liberaltarian12345 ( talk) 23:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
what ? inserting non latin countries ? or mentioning center leftist ? I mantain that since there's no consensus,we delete the list of rulers,the article is fine without it. 177.66.106.14 ( talk) 01:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
"The Pink tide (Spanish: marea rosa, Portuguese: onda rosa, French: marée rose), or turn to the left (Spanish: giro a la izquierda, Portuguese: guinada à esquerda, French: tournant à gauche), was a political wave and perception of a turn towards left-wing governments in Latin American democracies moving away from the neoliberal economic model at the start of the 21st century. As a term, both phrases are used in contemporary 21st-century political analysis in the media and elsewhere to refer to a move toward more progressive economic or social policies in Latin America" With that deifinition in mind,we should include all the governments that were generally considered leftists,no metter how much.What seems to me that is up to decide is what countries belong to Latin America or not...Guyana has been on the hands of leftists of one kind or another almost the entire time since independence,Suriname had as a military dictator in the 80's a man who is listed here as been a part of pink tide in his democratic return to power,other small caribbean nations have had center-left parties who regularly won elections since there was self government,like Bahamas or Belize.That can be sketchy,because those countries have largely diferent political histories than those more widely recognized as latin countries who gained their independencies in the 19th century,so very probably at the same time you'll have credible sources who define latin america only as the 20 countries who speak latin languages,credible sources that say pink tide is a latin phenomenon and credible sources putting anglo and dutch speaking countries in the pink tide,they will contradict themselves
Perhaps a good compromise would be to have a Pink Tide Adjacent/Disputed section where you can put the Countries that do not fit exactly with the definition of Pink Tide. The Latin countries can be listed as Pink Tide Proper then countries like Guyana and Suriname (As well as disputed leaders) can be put in a separate section. I may or may not edit the page in order to test the idea out, and feel free to revert it if you all do not like it -Liberaltarian12345
Seem ok,but not ideal,to me .
177.66.106.14 (
talk)
02:40, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Great, if u think it should be reworded better just do that Liberaltarian12345 ( talk)
Take note that during the Presidency of Leonel Fernandez and Danilo Medina, their party the Dominican Liberation Party was part of the São Paulo Forum despite their centrist position. So should we move it to the official or put it in the Disputed position? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Citizen Marc Christian ( talk • contribs) 01:58, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Yes,and Panama should be in the disputed section also — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.66.106.89 ( talk) 21:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe the artcile should be rename to Pink tides, in plural, instead of the current one. A tide by definition is cyclical and the Conservative Wave did interrupted the first Pink Tide of the 2000s having what many consider now a second Pink tide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.64.166.208 ( talk) 17:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Should Chile be considered as part of the Pink tide considering Gabriel Boric's victory 2001:56A:F4D9:B000:DCA9:E982:4F63:7936 ( talk) 19:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 22:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Pink tide → Pink tides – Several authors consider that we have experienced more than one "tide" of pink, with at least one from lat 90s early 2000s, later interrupted by the Conservative wave, and then followed by at least a second pink tide in more recente years. References [1] [2] [3] [4] 186.64.166.208 ( talk) 14:55, 7 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 15:50, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
The portuguese article pt:Nova guinada à esquerda already exists, in case anyone wants to translate it. I've added some content today (there was just one paragraph before), and it is now worth translating. -- Bageense (disc.) 04:44, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't we mark Colombia red since recently inaugurated Gustavo Petro's Historic Pact for Colombia is a member of Sao Paulo Forum? I'm asking because I see no one is doing it yet. 91.150.125.252 ( talk) 02:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
If Alejandro Toledo, ex-president of Peru, is a moderate leftist, then why wasn't he in the article until I PARTIALLY added him? Mausebru ( talk) 13:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Should social democrats presidents be included in the Pink Tide? Dereck Camacho ( talk) 10:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
I would say:
Stay | Remove | Add |
---|---|---|
|
|
maybe:
|
References
so these presidents which will be removed are either have moderate positions (and don't had good/better relationships to other "pink" countries; PRD (Panama)), turned their party into third way (or are members of centrist organizations like Center-Democratic Integration Group; PRD (Dominican R.), PLD, PRM) or are close to centrist parties than to communist/socialist parties (Convergencia) Braganza ( talk) 15:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Stalin990, Dentren, NoonIcarus, Son of Kenway, Roycebellion243, Bageense, Angele201002, and Sumanuil: what do you think?
Could be, a similar case to Mel Zelaya, althoug Im still dubious on how left wing Bachelet and Lagos really were. Also if this depuration goes along all of them would end as left wing and non is center left which would make the dashes unnecessary. My other doubt is if the Castros and Diez sould be there, considering that they are clearly not part of any wave and are not "pink" either. Dereck Camacho ( talk)---
I see that there are indeed references that include Lagos and Bachelet and see no problem with the inclusions of Surinam and St. Vicent.
I also see that the same discussion is taking place in Portuguese.
My only doubt now is whether Cuba should be included, as someone puts it in Portuguese, is neither part of a wave nor pink. Anyone opposes removing it? For the opposite reason that the social democrats, is not moderate enough.
Also Braganza I think is ok for you to make the suggested changes on Spanish if no one comments. Dereck Camacho ( talk) 02:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Tip: There's a fully referenced list of "Head of the states and governments" and timeline in the Porutguese Wikipedia: pt:Guinada à esquerda. It may contain fewer items, but at least they're all properly referenced. -- Bageense (disc.) 03:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Gabriel Serville won the election, should we include it? Braganza ( talk) 10:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
It is not part of Latin America Liberaltarian12345 ( talk) 14:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
It looks like in the past few months Guyana and Suriname were added and then removed from the list and timeline, with the following leaders in question:
Jagdeo, Ramotar, and Ali are all members of the People's Progressive Party (Guyana), while Bouterse is from National Democratic Party (Suriname). It looks like both parties were originally left-wing parties that have drifted closer to center-left.
Is there an official stance on whether Guyana and Suriname were part of the pink wave? -- BadgerPriest ( talk) 22:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Guatemala should be here with Alvaro Colom.Not so sure about Panama and Dominican Republic,but Suriname,Guayana and Saint Vincent should not be here cause they aren't latin countries.They mostly belong to the british commonwealth,speak non-latin languages,are mostly different ethnically and have an altogether different history.
They are not part of Latin America tho https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JN9zndL_eCA&feature=youtu.be Liberaltarian12345 ( talk) 14:21, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of the fact that these countries have indeed been ruled by the left,the term Pink Tide refers very specifically to a Latin American phenomenon,and Anglo or Dutch caribbean are not part of Latin America,as the very Wikipedia page on Latin America defines it. Moreover,Suriname and the commonwealth caribbean countries do not share the historical or social traits that are common to Ibero-America nor do they speak a latin language (like Haiti,for example),therefore i strongly suggest that Guyana,Suriname and Saint Vincent and Grenadines be removed because their inclusion mischaracterizes the whole article.
Lsiai-OA9U\AJn ( talk) 05:46, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
There has obviously been a lot of debate with this subject. I would like to address them point by point to try and streamline it.
First of all let us identify WHAT IS THE PINK TIDE. Pink Tide: "a political wave and perception of a turn towards left-wing governments in Latin American democracies moving away from the neoliberal economic model at the start of the 21st century" buy that notion Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, Saint Vincent, and Cuba should not be included because A: Cuba is not a democracy B: Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, Saint Vincent are not Latin American countries https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=JN9zndL_eCA&feature=youtu.be
Who counts and who doesn't: Even excluding the countries that are contentious, there seems to be debate on who counts as Pink Tide and who doesn't:
Some people think the Center-Left should be excluded like Ricardo Lagos and Michelle Blanchet. My case for them remaining is that due to Pinochet essentially being one of the founders of Neoliberalism, the shift to the Left is a part of the Pink Tide.
Alejandro Toledo seems to have contention about shifting to the right during his tenure, however people like Daniel Ortega and Ollanta Humala do not seem to have that problem. The explanation there is that Toledo's party was not really explicitly leftist, meanwhile Ortega and Humala's were. And unlike someone like Lenin Moreno, the shift was not drastic enough to be noticeable and they still campaign as Leftists
MY PROPOSED PINK TIDE LIST: Néstor Kirchner (2003–2007) Cristina Fernández de Kirchner (2007–2015) Alberto Fernández (2019–present) Evo Morales (2006–2019) Luis Arce (2020–present) Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (2003–2011) Dilma Rousseff (2011–2016) Ricardo Lagos* (2000–2006) Michelle Bachelet* (2006–2010; 2014–2018) Rafael Correa (2007–2017) Mauricio Funes* (2009–2014) Salvador Sánchez Cerén (2014–2019) Manuel Zelaya (2006–2009) Andrés Manuel López Obrador* (2018–present) Daniel Ortega (2007–present) Fernando Lugo* (2008–2012) Ollanta Humala* (2011–2016) Pedro Castillo (2021–present) Tabaré Vázquez* (2005–2010; 2015–2020) José Mujica (2010–2015) Hugo Chávez (1999–2013) Nicolás Maduro‡ (2013–present)
I have no prefrence on whether or not Martín Torrijos or Laurentino Cortizo remain on
I strongly agree,adding Guyana,Suriname and so on is a very crass mistake.
On the other hand,due to the very conservative political stablishment in Guatemala,i'd add Alvaro Colom,that's because i dont think the spirit of the Pink Tide is not wheter the government was radical or not,but simply if it moved the counttry leftwards,doesn't really metter how much.
177.66.106.14 (
talk)
01:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
There is also the interperetation that Pink Tide leaders associate with eachother frequently that might make some people reconsider their choices. That is only partially relevant in the matter Liberaltarian12345 ( talk) 05:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Maybe we should delete this list altogether,the more important names are mentioned elsewhere on the article 177.66.106.14 ( talk) 22:35, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
But would that not contradict with the Definition of Pink Tide? Liberaltarian12345 ( talk) 23:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
what ? inserting non latin countries ? or mentioning center leftist ? I mantain that since there's no consensus,we delete the list of rulers,the article is fine without it. 177.66.106.14 ( talk) 01:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
"The Pink tide (Spanish: marea rosa, Portuguese: onda rosa, French: marée rose), or turn to the left (Spanish: giro a la izquierda, Portuguese: guinada à esquerda, French: tournant à gauche), was a political wave and perception of a turn towards left-wing governments in Latin American democracies moving away from the neoliberal economic model at the start of the 21st century. As a term, both phrases are used in contemporary 21st-century political analysis in the media and elsewhere to refer to a move toward more progressive economic or social policies in Latin America" With that deifinition in mind,we should include all the governments that were generally considered leftists,no metter how much.What seems to me that is up to decide is what countries belong to Latin America or not...Guyana has been on the hands of leftists of one kind or another almost the entire time since independence,Suriname had as a military dictator in the 80's a man who is listed here as been a part of pink tide in his democratic return to power,other small caribbean nations have had center-left parties who regularly won elections since there was self government,like Bahamas or Belize.That can be sketchy,because those countries have largely diferent political histories than those more widely recognized as latin countries who gained their independencies in the 19th century,so very probably at the same time you'll have credible sources who define latin america only as the 20 countries who speak latin languages,credible sources that say pink tide is a latin phenomenon and credible sources putting anglo and dutch speaking countries in the pink tide,they will contradict themselves
Perhaps a good compromise would be to have a Pink Tide Adjacent/Disputed section where you can put the Countries that do not fit exactly with the definition of Pink Tide. The Latin countries can be listed as Pink Tide Proper then countries like Guyana and Suriname (As well as disputed leaders) can be put in a separate section. I may or may not edit the page in order to test the idea out, and feel free to revert it if you all do not like it -Liberaltarian12345
Seem ok,but not ideal,to me .
177.66.106.14 (
talk)
02:40, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Great, if u think it should be reworded better just do that Liberaltarian12345 ( talk)
Take note that during the Presidency of Leonel Fernandez and Danilo Medina, their party the Dominican Liberation Party was part of the São Paulo Forum despite their centrist position. So should we move it to the official or put it in the Disputed position? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Citizen Marc Christian ( talk • contribs) 01:58, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Yes,and Panama should be in the disputed section also — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.66.106.89 ( talk) 21:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe the artcile should be rename to Pink tides, in plural, instead of the current one. A tide by definition is cyclical and the Conservative Wave did interrupted the first Pink Tide of the 2000s having what many consider now a second Pink tide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.64.166.208 ( talk) 17:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Should Chile be considered as part of the Pink tide considering Gabriel Boric's victory 2001:56A:F4D9:B000:DCA9:E982:4F63:7936 ( talk) 19:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 22:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Pink tide → Pink tides – Several authors consider that we have experienced more than one "tide" of pink, with at least one from lat 90s early 2000s, later interrupted by the Conservative wave, and then followed by at least a second pink tide in more recente years. References [1] [2] [3] [4] 186.64.166.208 ( talk) 14:55, 7 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 15:50, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
The portuguese article pt:Nova guinada à esquerda already exists, in case anyone wants to translate it. I've added some content today (there was just one paragraph before), and it is now worth translating. -- Bageense (disc.) 04:44, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't we mark Colombia red since recently inaugurated Gustavo Petro's Historic Pact for Colombia is a member of Sao Paulo Forum? I'm asking because I see no one is doing it yet. 91.150.125.252 ( talk) 02:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)