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Where did anyone get the information on Pillar of Fire believing in sinless perfection? Their website statement of faith http://www.pillar.org/what_we_believe.shtml shows they do NOT believe in sinless perfection: "This grace does not make believers faultless nor prevent the possibility of their falling into sin." I'll make a change and let someone else change it back if you have verifiable reason to.
Here was the original test: I. We believe in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as verbally inspired of God, inerrant in the original writings, and that they are of supreme and final authority in faith and life. II. We believe in one God, maker and preserver of all things, existing in three equal persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. III. We believe in the essential deity of Jesus Christ our Lord, and in His physical resurrection from the dead. IV. We believe that the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Son, is of one substance, majesty, and glory with the Father and the Son, very eternal God. V. We believe in the fall of man and the universal depravity of the human race, and in the guilty and lost condition of all people everywhere outside Christ. VI. We believe in "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." VII. We believe in justification by faith and in Christian perfection, or entire sanctification, as a second definite work of grace. VIII. We believe in the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the body. IX. We believe in the premillennial return of Christ.
It was deleted several times for being "POV". But I just cut and paste it from the website. I think people assumed that since it was quoted in the first person, it was my own philosophy, or it I was a member of this religion trying to convert people. So it was deleted over and over. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 15:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
here is the last stable version: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pillar_of_Fire_Church&oldid=63154355
They certainly seem interesting and all, but I don't get the extreme presence this church has on Wikipedia, with their own category, a separate category for their three radio stations, and many articles that seem written in a promotional POV. wikipediatrix 15:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Some one took an interest. That’s how these articles get written. Wikipedia looks forward to covering everything this completely. 2A00:23C3:E284:900:15E7:7985:C625:63BB ( talk) 10:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Your strategy seems to be to delete the references to the New York Times articles then claim that there are no references in the article and therefore it needs to be deleted. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 14:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: wikipediatrix was banned from Wikipedia.
I posted the following paragraph relating to the UK mission in the article, which Richard Norton deleted:
The Pillar of Fire Church in London was established 1904, by Alma White when she was accompanied by her two sons to conduct gospel meetings in Camberwell, South London citation needed. The mission was set up as a Charitable Trust by Deed dated 19 September 1992, and was registered as a charity in December 1992 (Charity No. 1015529). In 2002, the Charities Commission received a complaint. Following the damaging findings of an Inquiry, the UK mission lost charitable status and was removed from the register on 16 January 2003 [1].
I have this to say:
If you are working to have the article retained, you cannot pick or choose which factual information to include in it just because it makes your church look ugly and, well, un-churchlike. The paragraph I inserted was completely factual and supported by a reference link from a very reliable source. Please do not remove it unless there is a good reason. The only reason I see is that it does not belong to your organisation as it claims it does, or if it can be refuted. If it is part of the church, I'm afraid it is fair game. If not, or if you wish to refute any of it, please supply appropriate proof. Ohconfucius 13:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
References
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cite press release}}
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help)
May I ask why each of this church's international Missions are given their own detailed section, and made to look bigger and more important than they are?
Take a look at the source link for the Pillar of Fire's India Mission, for example: [1]. This is clearly a Mission and it says so. But a Mission is no big deal. Wikipedia says that with Missions:
"Church" should be understood in the widest sense, as an organization of believers. It is not a building. Many churches start by meeting in houses."
Missions are no big deal. Lots of churches, large and tiny, do them. My parents' church has missions all over the country but when you actually go to the address, it's just some guy's apartment and regular services aren't even held. It sounds impressive on paper (and in a Wikipedia article), of course, that's show biz. But Missions are only a big deal to those who seek to make them sound like a big deal.
Given this, I will reduce the undue weight that the current writing style of the article places on these missions. wikipediatrix 14:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The mile-long timeline here is quite gratuitous, and there's little precedent for such timelines for Churches such as this. User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) restored it with no explanation. Given that unsourced material may be removed from any article at any time, I'd love to hear why this editor is so adamant that it stay in its current unsourced and bloated form. wikipediatrix 15:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I found it useful when I was researching the Klan, and there are many such timelines in wiki. Sourcing should be added, of course. I would ask you to explain further, but you seem to be banned. 2A00:23C3:E284:900:15E7:7985:C625:63BB ( talk) 10:45, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Can anyone explain why the list of alleged (unclickable) items in the "Selected coverage in the New York Times and Time" is now approaching the length of the article itself? What possible purpose does this list serve, except perhaps to puff up the article? I can find no other article about a comparable church that goes to such overzealous lengths to prove, well, whatever it is that this list is supposed to prove. My earlier queries about this have largely gone unanswered. wikipediatrix 15:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
As I recall, the school affiliated itself with a completely different church on its' information page. Shazbot85 Talk 18:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
You wrote: "The school never makes the claim of affiliation with the church". You do seem to love going around in circles, so here is the same information for the second time. I will save it in my cut and paste buffer for when you ask for it for the the third time:
Our school partners with a local church, Coastside Community Church. We are a dual ministry -- a church and a school -- with collaborative leadership, complimentary functions, and shared facilities. Our vision is for harmonious growth of church and school with each ministry strengthening and helping the other. Our school and church belong to a group of national and international ministries founded and directed by the Pillar of Fire, International. The Pillar of Fire provides us with oversight, advice, and material support, and gives us opportunities to participate in congregational, educational, media, and missions ministries around the world. The Pillar of Fire is an evangelical Christian organization that emphasizes personal faith in Jesus Christ and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that results in lives devoted to Christian purity and service. The name for the organization is based in the biblical account of God leading his people with a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire by night (Exodus 13:21-22). We believe that God continues to lead His people through all life's circumstances. The Pillar of Fire is headquartered in Zarephath, New Jersey. It has six congregations in the United States, five Christian schools, an accredited Christian college, three radio stations, various publications, and missions/partner ministries overseas in England, India, Malawi, Liberia, Nigeria, and Costa Rica.
Pillar of Fire does not consider itself to be a church; they consider themselves to be a denomination. There are several churches around the world that do not use the Pillar of Fire name, but are affiliated with the Pillar of Fire denomination. To answer your question, Coastside Community Church and Alma Heights Christian Academy are both affiliated with the denomination. Included in that denomination are churches in England, India, Malawi, Liberia, Nigeria, and Costa Rica, and six in the United States. Also part of the denomination are privates schools in Los Angeles, CA; Pacifica, CA; Zarephath, NJ; Westminster, CO; and Cincinnati, OH. Maybe this should be started as a new section, but this should be written into the article. The article makes it seem like Pillar of Fire is only a single church with external missions when in reality it is a denomination with many independent churches and schools.
-- jquiring 22:45, 25 September 2006 (PST)
How come the header to the article becomes dodgy every few edits. The christianity template now causes a big space in the article. Can anyone fix it? And just a reminder, please dont feed the trolls. It just encourages them more. Its for their own health.
This is a post that Alansohn made to my talk page [2]. Since it contains personal attacks and insults, I've removed it and am transplanting it here where it really belongs anyway:
Huh? -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The size of the article has now doubled! -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to rewrite the theology section in neutral fashion. The long sentence is less than ideal, but I believe it's an improvement over citing the PFC's credo. Encyclopedias have styles. Billbrock 16:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it looks great, much more encyclopedic. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks; we atheists are always happy to summarize any denomination's theology! Billbrock 18:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
What is the point of this section? It is overly bloated and is not a source for the article from what I can see. Is there any real purpose in listing 20 or so articles written about a subject? 5 would establish notability... The fact that the links, and further reading section is nearly as long as the article is fairly daft. That section should be culled down to something more reasonable and expansion to this article should take the form of actual article text.-- Isotope23 15:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
What does this mean? "was condemned by later leaders with full forgiveness requested." Were they requesting to be forgiven, or were they forgiving those that called them holy rollers. I am going to remove it because as written it looks like the information is coming from one of the references I added on holy rollers, and it clearly did not. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 08:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
In reading the article, nearly half of it was dedicated to the 6 year period in which the POF aligned with the KKK. I am going to attempt to provide external reference and source material for the 40-50 years that are unrepresented from 1960s to present. The KKK link, while interesting and historical, really is providing a skewed focus to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dderitter ( talk • contribs) 05:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
When I search for "Pillar of Fire" on the Wikipedia site, the resulting description is "a religious community in Zarephath, New Jersey". Sorry, I'm new, I don't know how to change this. Pillar of Fire certainly has a campus at Zarephath, NJ, and it had been a community, but this description no longer applies to the organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dderitter ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I think the original language was much better. But rather than just reverting I decided to make a point about NPOV editing. The quote "However there is no room in our hearts for racial prejudice." is inapropriate without mention of the volumes of published material to the contrary. It's a little like singularly quoting Nixon saying "I am not a crook." Buz lightning ( talk) 20:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi Buz. I understand about NPOV. I rather consider the section NPOV. Concepts such as a "partnership with the KKK" are wholly unsupportable, as far as I have read. I am drawing from The Good Citizen, "Story of My Life", "Heroes of the Fiery Cross", etc. To have so many published works, some including letters and introductions from the Klan, and yet to exclude mention of a partnership is quite remarkable. Rather, I think that both groups had what they stated- a mutual admiration. If there is support of a partnership, by all means let it be included and cited. Until then I think it appropriate to leave out suppositions. I do not want to whitewash this in any way, but do wish it to be accurate.
I assume the above is from Dderitter (please sign your posts by adding 4 tildes at the end). I hear your perspective on NPOV. In choosing the word partnership I was paraphrasing scholar Kristen Kandt's peer reviewed article where she use the language "public alliance." Please see the quote in the reference list. I'm happy to change the language from partnership to alliance. In reviewing all of the schoolars (Blee, Neal, Stanley, Kandt) that I can find who have published in peer reviewed journals about White's relationship with the Klan, their articles are consistent with the term partnership. I'd have to go back and review them to find the specific language, but I bet if I did I'd find the word partnership used in some. But I'd rather not take the time to do that work at the moment, so I'm happy to use the word alliance since I can and have supported that word. I'm happy to send you a copy of the full Kandt article if you send me an email address. I have my own personal perspective (which is actually somewhat compassionate) on why White was so supportive of the Klan and many of their intolerant ideologies, which some day I suppose I should publish, but I recognize Wikipedia is not the place for that. Buz lightning ( talk) 15:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
On further reflection, I can live without the words partnership or alliance, even thought I believe the references warrants their use. I think the text of the article, as is, sufficiently makes the case of a partnership/alliance without actually using the word(s). Buz lightning ( talk) 15:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi Buz, I would be happy to read anything you send: I devour this subject and time period. :-) I feel like there is so much more to be told and said on the subject, but not within the context of an summary article. Feel free to email me at dderitter AT msn.com. Aside from that, let me apologize for being a newbie to Wikipedia: I truly do want to make the article even better. 68.192.152.138 ( talk) 22:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)dderitter
Hi everyone,
I see that this article is part of Category:Christian fundamentalism. Are there any references that say it is a fundamentalist church?
-- Kevinkor2 ( talk) 12:18, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I removed two sentences from the final paragraph. The first sentence ("Even today in 2010, the organization's largest K-12 school openly descriminates against ("screens") prospective students based on the student's or their parents' religious beliefs.") is placed out of context since a Christian school by its very definition is going to be selective in what faith they allow in. This is desired by the parents sending their children there, perfectly legal (any laws dealing with religious prejudice contain explicit exemptions for religious charities/schools/non-profits/etc. to restrict membership to only those of their faith), and a common practice that isn't considered any form of religious intolerance normally. While it may be arguable that this specific instance could be a continuation of previous prejudice any conjecture along those lines would be the opinion of the authors adding it to the article and not obvious from that source.
The second sentence ("The Pillar of Fire has yet to specifically acknowledge its role in promoting the ideologies of intolerance which drove it to work with the Klan.") was removed because the preceding two paragraphs are quotes explicitly proving it wrong saying that they acknowledge their "significant association with the KKK" and "regret mistakes and bad judgement by previous generations or anyone in our membership of the past". Any further elaboration on this point (such as "They should have done more!") is the writer's opinion and therefore should not appear in the article per WP:NPOV. - DNewhall ( talk) 07:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
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User:Jacona, with this , you have added unsourced information into the article, including your outstanding claim that "the group established segregated schools into the late 20th century and were staunch racists". For information like this, you must support your additions with a reliable source that is verifiable. Additionally, you have added the word "racist" to describe the present-day denomination; you must provide a reference to say this because the present-day Pillar of Fire repudiates racism and from looking at their website, has African Americans in leadership, in addition to having missions across the world. Additionally, please think twice before you accuse a person of colour of trying to "whitewash" the article simply because your edit didn't have any source to buttress it, not to mention the fact that you confuse the word "its" with "it's". Thank you for your understanding. With regards, Anupam Talk 14:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
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Where did anyone get the information on Pillar of Fire believing in sinless perfection? Their website statement of faith http://www.pillar.org/what_we_believe.shtml shows they do NOT believe in sinless perfection: "This grace does not make believers faultless nor prevent the possibility of their falling into sin." I'll make a change and let someone else change it back if you have verifiable reason to.
Here was the original test: I. We believe in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as verbally inspired of God, inerrant in the original writings, and that they are of supreme and final authority in faith and life. II. We believe in one God, maker and preserver of all things, existing in three equal persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. III. We believe in the essential deity of Jesus Christ our Lord, and in His physical resurrection from the dead. IV. We believe that the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Son, is of one substance, majesty, and glory with the Father and the Son, very eternal God. V. We believe in the fall of man and the universal depravity of the human race, and in the guilty and lost condition of all people everywhere outside Christ. VI. We believe in "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." VII. We believe in justification by faith and in Christian perfection, or entire sanctification, as a second definite work of grace. VIII. We believe in the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the body. IX. We believe in the premillennial return of Christ.
It was deleted several times for being "POV". But I just cut and paste it from the website. I think people assumed that since it was quoted in the first person, it was my own philosophy, or it I was a member of this religion trying to convert people. So it was deleted over and over. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 15:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
here is the last stable version: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pillar_of_Fire_Church&oldid=63154355
They certainly seem interesting and all, but I don't get the extreme presence this church has on Wikipedia, with their own category, a separate category for their three radio stations, and many articles that seem written in a promotional POV. wikipediatrix 15:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Some one took an interest. That’s how these articles get written. Wikipedia looks forward to covering everything this completely. 2A00:23C3:E284:900:15E7:7985:C625:63BB ( talk) 10:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Your strategy seems to be to delete the references to the New York Times articles then claim that there are no references in the article and therefore it needs to be deleted. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 14:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: wikipediatrix was banned from Wikipedia.
I posted the following paragraph relating to the UK mission in the article, which Richard Norton deleted:
The Pillar of Fire Church in London was established 1904, by Alma White when she was accompanied by her two sons to conduct gospel meetings in Camberwell, South London citation needed. The mission was set up as a Charitable Trust by Deed dated 19 September 1992, and was registered as a charity in December 1992 (Charity No. 1015529). In 2002, the Charities Commission received a complaint. Following the damaging findings of an Inquiry, the UK mission lost charitable status and was removed from the register on 16 January 2003 [1].
I have this to say:
If you are working to have the article retained, you cannot pick or choose which factual information to include in it just because it makes your church look ugly and, well, un-churchlike. The paragraph I inserted was completely factual and supported by a reference link from a very reliable source. Please do not remove it unless there is a good reason. The only reason I see is that it does not belong to your organisation as it claims it does, or if it can be refuted. If it is part of the church, I'm afraid it is fair game. If not, or if you wish to refute any of it, please supply appropriate proof. Ohconfucius 13:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
References
{{
cite press release}}
: Check date values in: |date=
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help)
May I ask why each of this church's international Missions are given their own detailed section, and made to look bigger and more important than they are?
Take a look at the source link for the Pillar of Fire's India Mission, for example: [1]. This is clearly a Mission and it says so. But a Mission is no big deal. Wikipedia says that with Missions:
"Church" should be understood in the widest sense, as an organization of believers. It is not a building. Many churches start by meeting in houses."
Missions are no big deal. Lots of churches, large and tiny, do them. My parents' church has missions all over the country but when you actually go to the address, it's just some guy's apartment and regular services aren't even held. It sounds impressive on paper (and in a Wikipedia article), of course, that's show biz. But Missions are only a big deal to those who seek to make them sound like a big deal.
Given this, I will reduce the undue weight that the current writing style of the article places on these missions. wikipediatrix 14:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The mile-long timeline here is quite gratuitous, and there's little precedent for such timelines for Churches such as this. User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) restored it with no explanation. Given that unsourced material may be removed from any article at any time, I'd love to hear why this editor is so adamant that it stay in its current unsourced and bloated form. wikipediatrix 15:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I found it useful when I was researching the Klan, and there are many such timelines in wiki. Sourcing should be added, of course. I would ask you to explain further, but you seem to be banned. 2A00:23C3:E284:900:15E7:7985:C625:63BB ( talk) 10:45, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Can anyone explain why the list of alleged (unclickable) items in the "Selected coverage in the New York Times and Time" is now approaching the length of the article itself? What possible purpose does this list serve, except perhaps to puff up the article? I can find no other article about a comparable church that goes to such overzealous lengths to prove, well, whatever it is that this list is supposed to prove. My earlier queries about this have largely gone unanswered. wikipediatrix 15:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
As I recall, the school affiliated itself with a completely different church on its' information page. Shazbot85 Talk 18:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
You wrote: "The school never makes the claim of affiliation with the church". You do seem to love going around in circles, so here is the same information for the second time. I will save it in my cut and paste buffer for when you ask for it for the the third time:
Our school partners with a local church, Coastside Community Church. We are a dual ministry -- a church and a school -- with collaborative leadership, complimentary functions, and shared facilities. Our vision is for harmonious growth of church and school with each ministry strengthening and helping the other. Our school and church belong to a group of national and international ministries founded and directed by the Pillar of Fire, International. The Pillar of Fire provides us with oversight, advice, and material support, and gives us opportunities to participate in congregational, educational, media, and missions ministries around the world. The Pillar of Fire is an evangelical Christian organization that emphasizes personal faith in Jesus Christ and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that results in lives devoted to Christian purity and service. The name for the organization is based in the biblical account of God leading his people with a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire by night (Exodus 13:21-22). We believe that God continues to lead His people through all life's circumstances. The Pillar of Fire is headquartered in Zarephath, New Jersey. It has six congregations in the United States, five Christian schools, an accredited Christian college, three radio stations, various publications, and missions/partner ministries overseas in England, India, Malawi, Liberia, Nigeria, and Costa Rica.
Pillar of Fire does not consider itself to be a church; they consider themselves to be a denomination. There are several churches around the world that do not use the Pillar of Fire name, but are affiliated with the Pillar of Fire denomination. To answer your question, Coastside Community Church and Alma Heights Christian Academy are both affiliated with the denomination. Included in that denomination are churches in England, India, Malawi, Liberia, Nigeria, and Costa Rica, and six in the United States. Also part of the denomination are privates schools in Los Angeles, CA; Pacifica, CA; Zarephath, NJ; Westminster, CO; and Cincinnati, OH. Maybe this should be started as a new section, but this should be written into the article. The article makes it seem like Pillar of Fire is only a single church with external missions when in reality it is a denomination with many independent churches and schools.
-- jquiring 22:45, 25 September 2006 (PST)
How come the header to the article becomes dodgy every few edits. The christianity template now causes a big space in the article. Can anyone fix it? And just a reminder, please dont feed the trolls. It just encourages them more. Its for their own health.
This is a post that Alansohn made to my talk page [2]. Since it contains personal attacks and insults, I've removed it and am transplanting it here where it really belongs anyway:
Huh? -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The size of the article has now doubled! -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to rewrite the theology section in neutral fashion. The long sentence is less than ideal, but I believe it's an improvement over citing the PFC's credo. Encyclopedias have styles. Billbrock 16:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it looks great, much more encyclopedic. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks; we atheists are always happy to summarize any denomination's theology! Billbrock 18:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
What is the point of this section? It is overly bloated and is not a source for the article from what I can see. Is there any real purpose in listing 20 or so articles written about a subject? 5 would establish notability... The fact that the links, and further reading section is nearly as long as the article is fairly daft. That section should be culled down to something more reasonable and expansion to this article should take the form of actual article text.-- Isotope23 15:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
What does this mean? "was condemned by later leaders with full forgiveness requested." Were they requesting to be forgiven, or were they forgiving those that called them holy rollers. I am going to remove it because as written it looks like the information is coming from one of the references I added on holy rollers, and it clearly did not. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 08:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
In reading the article, nearly half of it was dedicated to the 6 year period in which the POF aligned with the KKK. I am going to attempt to provide external reference and source material for the 40-50 years that are unrepresented from 1960s to present. The KKK link, while interesting and historical, really is providing a skewed focus to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dderitter ( talk • contribs) 05:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
When I search for "Pillar of Fire" on the Wikipedia site, the resulting description is "a religious community in Zarephath, New Jersey". Sorry, I'm new, I don't know how to change this. Pillar of Fire certainly has a campus at Zarephath, NJ, and it had been a community, but this description no longer applies to the organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dderitter ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I think the original language was much better. But rather than just reverting I decided to make a point about NPOV editing. The quote "However there is no room in our hearts for racial prejudice." is inapropriate without mention of the volumes of published material to the contrary. It's a little like singularly quoting Nixon saying "I am not a crook." Buz lightning ( talk) 20:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi Buz. I understand about NPOV. I rather consider the section NPOV. Concepts such as a "partnership with the KKK" are wholly unsupportable, as far as I have read. I am drawing from The Good Citizen, "Story of My Life", "Heroes of the Fiery Cross", etc. To have so many published works, some including letters and introductions from the Klan, and yet to exclude mention of a partnership is quite remarkable. Rather, I think that both groups had what they stated- a mutual admiration. If there is support of a partnership, by all means let it be included and cited. Until then I think it appropriate to leave out suppositions. I do not want to whitewash this in any way, but do wish it to be accurate.
I assume the above is from Dderitter (please sign your posts by adding 4 tildes at the end). I hear your perspective on NPOV. In choosing the word partnership I was paraphrasing scholar Kristen Kandt's peer reviewed article where she use the language "public alliance." Please see the quote in the reference list. I'm happy to change the language from partnership to alliance. In reviewing all of the schoolars (Blee, Neal, Stanley, Kandt) that I can find who have published in peer reviewed journals about White's relationship with the Klan, their articles are consistent with the term partnership. I'd have to go back and review them to find the specific language, but I bet if I did I'd find the word partnership used in some. But I'd rather not take the time to do that work at the moment, so I'm happy to use the word alliance since I can and have supported that word. I'm happy to send you a copy of the full Kandt article if you send me an email address. I have my own personal perspective (which is actually somewhat compassionate) on why White was so supportive of the Klan and many of their intolerant ideologies, which some day I suppose I should publish, but I recognize Wikipedia is not the place for that. Buz lightning ( talk) 15:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
On further reflection, I can live without the words partnership or alliance, even thought I believe the references warrants their use. I think the text of the article, as is, sufficiently makes the case of a partnership/alliance without actually using the word(s). Buz lightning ( talk) 15:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi Buz, I would be happy to read anything you send: I devour this subject and time period. :-) I feel like there is so much more to be told and said on the subject, but not within the context of an summary article. Feel free to email me at dderitter AT msn.com. Aside from that, let me apologize for being a newbie to Wikipedia: I truly do want to make the article even better. 68.192.152.138 ( talk) 22:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)dderitter
Hi everyone,
I see that this article is part of Category:Christian fundamentalism. Are there any references that say it is a fundamentalist church?
-- Kevinkor2 ( talk) 12:18, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I removed two sentences from the final paragraph. The first sentence ("Even today in 2010, the organization's largest K-12 school openly descriminates against ("screens") prospective students based on the student's or their parents' religious beliefs.") is placed out of context since a Christian school by its very definition is going to be selective in what faith they allow in. This is desired by the parents sending their children there, perfectly legal (any laws dealing with religious prejudice contain explicit exemptions for religious charities/schools/non-profits/etc. to restrict membership to only those of their faith), and a common practice that isn't considered any form of religious intolerance normally. While it may be arguable that this specific instance could be a continuation of previous prejudice any conjecture along those lines would be the opinion of the authors adding it to the article and not obvious from that source.
The second sentence ("The Pillar of Fire has yet to specifically acknowledge its role in promoting the ideologies of intolerance which drove it to work with the Klan.") was removed because the preceding two paragraphs are quotes explicitly proving it wrong saying that they acknowledge their "significant association with the KKK" and "regret mistakes and bad judgement by previous generations or anyone in our membership of the past". Any further elaboration on this point (such as "They should have done more!") is the writer's opinion and therefore should not appear in the article per WP:NPOV. - DNewhall ( talk) 07:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
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User:Jacona, with this , you have added unsourced information into the article, including your outstanding claim that "the group established segregated schools into the late 20th century and were staunch racists". For information like this, you must support your additions with a reliable source that is verifiable. Additionally, you have added the word "racist" to describe the present-day denomination; you must provide a reference to say this because the present-day Pillar of Fire repudiates racism and from looking at their website, has African Americans in leadership, in addition to having missions across the world. Additionally, please think twice before you accuse a person of colour of trying to "whitewash" the article simply because your edit didn't have any source to buttress it, not to mention the fact that you confuse the word "its" with "it's". Thank you for your understanding. With regards, Anupam Talk 14:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)