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Would it be worth mentioning one amusing aspect of his contract with the London Symphony? They gave him a 25-year contract with an option to extend for another 25 years...this when he was well into his eighties! Wspencer11 14:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Image:Monteux.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm wondering about the latest addition, which sounds a bit like damning with faint praise to me, and which I don't think really adds anything terribly useful to the article. Are video and audio airchecks really the only way to defend his, or anyone's, gifts as a performer? What about those unfortunate souls who died before recording was invented? Maybe there's a better way to refer to these materials that doesn't come across quite so dismissively. -- Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 19:10, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I'd be delighted to work with you on the article. I have Canarina's biography, and a good history of the LSO, but not much else, apart from Grove. Tim riley ( talk) 14:19, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
In answer to your question, there is a lot of overlap between Mousnier and Canarina but it is a serious book and he is worth quoting from. Doris’s book is a good read although some people have said that it is not very reliable/objective. On the first section in your sandbox, here are some superficial comments:
I think we could amend and expand the third sentence to focus on his mother’s musical ability/instrument etc. We should mention somewhere his siblings and relations (brother Henri was an actor in Paris) and some information about those that died in the concentration camps. Maybe this would be lower down.
I think it is worth mentioning that he attended the premiere of Franck’s symphony and that (with the Geloso) he played for Grieg (there is a photo).
We need to check the position on children.
Sorry for the short reply, but I will try to get something typed soon.
Somewhere we should mention the fact that, like Boult, Walter, Klemperer and Toscanini, he split the firsts and seconds; this would be important when discussing the ‘Monteux sound’. (ref = Boult A. The Art of Conducting: IV. Arranging Orchestras. In: Boult on Music. Toccata Press, 1983, p146). Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 20:57, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
The article is not very strong on images on Monteux. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I wonder about a scan of the LP cover of one of his classic late recordings? Although that might be better for the discography page. Of course, I have no idea how to do this properly. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 18:08, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Key P V R. Pierre Key's Musical Who's Who. Pierre Key, Inc, New York, 1931, states: "married 3 times; 3 children: Jean (musician, Casino de Paris) by 1st wife; Denise and Claude by 2nd wife" Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 22:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I think this needs checking - I thought although it is possible to have all studio records of Monteux conducting Beethoven symphonies, they are from different orchestras, years and labels. So perhaps the definition of 'cycle' is too elastic? Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:06, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
I increased the quality assessment of this article to B-class. Great job, everyone, on the article's progress! -- Ssilvers ( talk) 01:00, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
1. I don't quite understand the issue in 'M in the studio' above. Maybe it is dealt with now by default.
2. It would be nice to find alternative criticims of Monteux - Haggins' is incoherent to me ('a giant of conducting... repeated musical mediocrity...') while Cardus on Monteux in Brahms is in a bit of minority. I realize there must be criticism in the article, but think there must be better examples available to have?
3. Note 17 has a nice quote from Boult, but it doesn't mention Monteux. In Boult on music, p146 he does: "I am in a small minority. However, on my side are Walter, Monteux, Klemperer and a few others, including Toscanini..."
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk) 20:48, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
4. I think the first section (introductory parasgraphs) should stress his importance and (horrible word) greatness - otherwise it might look like a 'fan's' Wikipedia article. (Although the achievements speak for themselves, perhaps the article itself needs this more too - ie, he isn't any old conductor.)
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk) 11:34, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
5. It seems probable that Monteux would have participated in the 1908-1909 Pathé recordings by the Colonne Orchestra, but the only mention of the possibility I have found is in the notes to the 3-CD Cascavelle Monteux set. Perhaps there is a better reference?
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk) 18:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
6. The LSO music directors box at the bottom gives Monteux as starting his period in 1960; the article gives 1961 which I think is correct. Likewise the SFSO box gives 1935 but I think it is early 1936. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 22:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
7. The article (and discography article) says that his final studio recording sessions was the pieces with Claude; my Decca Original Masters set (which is well documented) gives the Ravel La Valse, Ma mère l'oye – complete, Boléro (Philips 835258) as 22-26 February 1964. The reference you gave is of course correct, for Decca recordings. I am happy to make the corrections. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 11:41, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
8. Sorry another thing: although Canarina says that "there appear to have been no performances of Harold in Italy" by the Colonne Orchestra - p23, if you find this pdf (paraphrasesmusic00udin.pdf), on page 68 there is a report of a performance by Monteux conducted by Mottl. Given that the piece was somewhat neglected (and also that we have little about Monteux as a soloist) it deserves to be added. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 12:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
As Tim riley is no longer active (although I hope very much he may return at some point to Wikipedia) I thought I would try to answer those comments which were not dealt with during the June peer review. Where possible and uncontroversial I will then make the edit in the article itself, and hope it is not against what Tim riley was thinking.
Brianboulton comments: Sorry for the delay in getting to this, but "events, dear boy, events...". Here are a few initial points, none of much substance:-
-I hope it is clear what are my replies... Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 14:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
More soon. Brianboulton ( talk) 10:28, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
My finger slipped while typing the Edit Summary at 18.08! - I meant to say that I made more edits based on these loose ends. I added a phrase about the Second World War, based on the many pages in Canarina p140-163 describing his work in the USA during those years, but this sentence probably needs improving. If I am able to respond on the outstanding comments I will try. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 18:14, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
There is no case for the use of File:NikolaiRoerichRite1.jpg, an image of Roerich's 1913 designs for The Rite of Spring which is used in that article under a fair use rationale. The image is central to that article; it is only decorative for this article, which contains no discussion of it. I have replaced it with a free image of Roerich's costume designs for The Rite. Brianboulton ( talk) 18:27, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
I see that the following was (re)deleted, on the justification that it is marginal information. I disagree: it is about Monteux, his behaviour with regard to close collaborators and his attitude to the integrity of the music he conducted. (No one objected to this at Peer Review.) I propose it go back:
Leading up to the 1913 London performances, Diaghilev's authority was challenged when Monteux declared that he was "Stravinsky's representative" in matters related to Rite of Spring. [1] Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 18:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
References
We're told Le Spectre de la Rose premiered on the same occasion as Petrushka. But Petrushka (ballet) says it premiered on 13 June 1911 in Paris under Monteux, while Le Spectre de la Rose says it premiered on 19 April 1911, in Monte Carlo, with no mention of Monteux.
Something doesn't add up. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 09:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
While I think the link should stay in, do we need so much about Leplin who is probably less notable than others mentioned? Mousnier and Doris do not mention him and Canarina only in the context of his conducting some of his works while a player in the orchestra. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 12:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
The article states that Monteux was a graduate of one of the grandes écoles, but Wikipedia does not mention it in that article.... Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
(cur | prev) 00:00, 19 June 2014 TFA Protector Bot (talk | contribs) m . . (79,569 bytes) (0) . . (Protected Pierre Monteux: Upcoming TFA (bot protection) ([Move=Allow only administrators] (expires 00:00, 2 July 2014 (UTC)))) (undo)
It seems that the article was supposed to be protected when it was featured on the home page. Clearly it didn't work as there was some vandalism on that day... Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:54, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
we now have lists of famous conductors in the introductory section and lower down in the Monteux School paragraph. Do we need both? Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 19:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Although the article really needs a photo of an older Monteux, I would like to propose that
be used somewhere, although I am not sure if the 'description' is quite accurate. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 18:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Pierre Monteux article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Pierre Monteux. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Pierre Monteux at the Reference desk. |
Pierre Monteux is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 1, 2014. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on April 4, 2022. | |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This
level-5 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Would it be worth mentioning one amusing aspect of his contract with the London Symphony? They gave him a 25-year contract with an option to extend for another 25 years...this when he was well into his eighties! Wspencer11 14:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Image:Monteux.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm wondering about the latest addition, which sounds a bit like damning with faint praise to me, and which I don't think really adds anything terribly useful to the article. Are video and audio airchecks really the only way to defend his, or anyone's, gifts as a performer? What about those unfortunate souls who died before recording was invented? Maybe there's a better way to refer to these materials that doesn't come across quite so dismissively. -- Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 19:10, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I'd be delighted to work with you on the article. I have Canarina's biography, and a good history of the LSO, but not much else, apart from Grove. Tim riley ( talk) 14:19, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
In answer to your question, there is a lot of overlap between Mousnier and Canarina but it is a serious book and he is worth quoting from. Doris’s book is a good read although some people have said that it is not very reliable/objective. On the first section in your sandbox, here are some superficial comments:
I think we could amend and expand the third sentence to focus on his mother’s musical ability/instrument etc. We should mention somewhere his siblings and relations (brother Henri was an actor in Paris) and some information about those that died in the concentration camps. Maybe this would be lower down.
I think it is worth mentioning that he attended the premiere of Franck’s symphony and that (with the Geloso) he played for Grieg (there is a photo).
We need to check the position on children.
Sorry for the short reply, but I will try to get something typed soon.
Somewhere we should mention the fact that, like Boult, Walter, Klemperer and Toscanini, he split the firsts and seconds; this would be important when discussing the ‘Monteux sound’. (ref = Boult A. The Art of Conducting: IV. Arranging Orchestras. In: Boult on Music. Toccata Press, 1983, p146). Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 20:57, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
The article is not very strong on images on Monteux. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I wonder about a scan of the LP cover of one of his classic late recordings? Although that might be better for the discography page. Of course, I have no idea how to do this properly. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 18:08, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Key P V R. Pierre Key's Musical Who's Who. Pierre Key, Inc, New York, 1931, states: "married 3 times; 3 children: Jean (musician, Casino de Paris) by 1st wife; Denise and Claude by 2nd wife" Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 22:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I think this needs checking - I thought although it is possible to have all studio records of Monteux conducting Beethoven symphonies, they are from different orchestras, years and labels. So perhaps the definition of 'cycle' is too elastic? Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:06, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
I increased the quality assessment of this article to B-class. Great job, everyone, on the article's progress! -- Ssilvers ( talk) 01:00, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
1. I don't quite understand the issue in 'M in the studio' above. Maybe it is dealt with now by default.
2. It would be nice to find alternative criticims of Monteux - Haggins' is incoherent to me ('a giant of conducting... repeated musical mediocrity...') while Cardus on Monteux in Brahms is in a bit of minority. I realize there must be criticism in the article, but think there must be better examples available to have?
3. Note 17 has a nice quote from Boult, but it doesn't mention Monteux. In Boult on music, p146 he does: "I am in a small minority. However, on my side are Walter, Monteux, Klemperer and a few others, including Toscanini..."
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk) 20:48, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
4. I think the first section (introductory parasgraphs) should stress his importance and (horrible word) greatness - otherwise it might look like a 'fan's' Wikipedia article. (Although the achievements speak for themselves, perhaps the article itself needs this more too - ie, he isn't any old conductor.)
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk) 11:34, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
5. It seems probable that Monteux would have participated in the 1908-1909 Pathé recordings by the Colonne Orchestra, but the only mention of the possibility I have found is in the notes to the 3-CD Cascavelle Monteux set. Perhaps there is a better reference?
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk) 18:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
6. The LSO music directors box at the bottom gives Monteux as starting his period in 1960; the article gives 1961 which I think is correct. Likewise the SFSO box gives 1935 but I think it is early 1936. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 22:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
7. The article (and discography article) says that his final studio recording sessions was the pieces with Claude; my Decca Original Masters set (which is well documented) gives the Ravel La Valse, Ma mère l'oye – complete, Boléro (Philips 835258) as 22-26 February 1964. The reference you gave is of course correct, for Decca recordings. I am happy to make the corrections. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 11:41, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
8. Sorry another thing: although Canarina says that "there appear to have been no performances of Harold in Italy" by the Colonne Orchestra - p23, if you find this pdf (paraphrasesmusic00udin.pdf), on page 68 there is a report of a performance by Monteux conducted by Mottl. Given that the piece was somewhat neglected (and also that we have little about Monteux as a soloist) it deserves to be added. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 12:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
As Tim riley is no longer active (although I hope very much he may return at some point to Wikipedia) I thought I would try to answer those comments which were not dealt with during the June peer review. Where possible and uncontroversial I will then make the edit in the article itself, and hope it is not against what Tim riley was thinking.
Brianboulton comments: Sorry for the delay in getting to this, but "events, dear boy, events...". Here are a few initial points, none of much substance:-
-I hope it is clear what are my replies... Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 14:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
More soon. Brianboulton ( talk) 10:28, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
My finger slipped while typing the Edit Summary at 18.08! - I meant to say that I made more edits based on these loose ends. I added a phrase about the Second World War, based on the many pages in Canarina p140-163 describing his work in the USA during those years, but this sentence probably needs improving. If I am able to respond on the outstanding comments I will try. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 18:14, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
There is no case for the use of File:NikolaiRoerichRite1.jpg, an image of Roerich's 1913 designs for The Rite of Spring which is used in that article under a fair use rationale. The image is central to that article; it is only decorative for this article, which contains no discussion of it. I have replaced it with a free image of Roerich's costume designs for The Rite. Brianboulton ( talk) 18:27, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
I see that the following was (re)deleted, on the justification that it is marginal information. I disagree: it is about Monteux, his behaviour with regard to close collaborators and his attitude to the integrity of the music he conducted. (No one objected to this at Peer Review.) I propose it go back:
Leading up to the 1913 London performances, Diaghilev's authority was challenged when Monteux declared that he was "Stravinsky's representative" in matters related to Rite of Spring. [1] Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 18:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
References
We're told Le Spectre de la Rose premiered on the same occasion as Petrushka. But Petrushka (ballet) says it premiered on 13 June 1911 in Paris under Monteux, while Le Spectre de la Rose says it premiered on 19 April 1911, in Monte Carlo, with no mention of Monteux.
Something doesn't add up. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 09:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
While I think the link should stay in, do we need so much about Leplin who is probably less notable than others mentioned? Mousnier and Doris do not mention him and Canarina only in the context of his conducting some of his works while a player in the orchestra. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 12:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
The article states that Monteux was a graduate of one of the grandes écoles, but Wikipedia does not mention it in that article.... Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
(cur | prev) 00:00, 19 June 2014 TFA Protector Bot (talk | contribs) m . . (79,569 bytes) (0) . . (Protected Pierre Monteux: Upcoming TFA (bot protection) ([Move=Allow only administrators] (expires 00:00, 2 July 2014 (UTC)))) (undo)
It seems that the article was supposed to be protected when it was featured on the home page. Clearly it didn't work as there was some vandalism on that day... Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:54, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
we now have lists of famous conductors in the introductory section and lower down in the Monteux School paragraph. Do we need both? Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 19:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Although the article really needs a photo of an older Monteux, I would like to propose that
be used somewhere, although I am not sure if the 'description' is quite accurate. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 18:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)