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classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the
guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the
project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music articles
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
– The main page for navigating among the sonatas is the
Category:Piano sonatas by Ludwig van Beethoven page, where currently all sonatas display only their basic cardinal number and do not display opus number. As many exeternal sources refer to these pieces by opus number it is potentially (and unnecessarily) difficult to identify the desired sonata by a cardinal number alone. This change would add the opus number to the page names and therefore make them available to the category page. This will improve the navigational usefulness of the category page. –
Sneedy (
talk)
13:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - The ordinal numbers are universally agreed upon and are also used. The navigation template
Template:Beethoven piano sonatas is available to ease navigate. I'm not sure the category page should worry about navigational usefulness but if there is that concern you could put the nav template on that page, too.
DavidRF (
talk)
13:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Michael - The category page is not a disambiguation page and is generated from the names of the individual pages. Category pages are primarily for navigation. There is nothing in either of the pages you mention that prohibit the move I'm proposing.
David - The opus number is standard for most of Beethoven's work (see
Opus number), and as I mentioned it is frequently used as a reference, so it's odd - and inconvenient - for it to be missing on the category page. The navigation template is useful but it would be redundant on the category page, even without the opus numbers. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Sneedy (
talk •
contribs)
13:56, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Support (see my comment below for why I struck this support) (note: I fixed the opus numbers in the proposed article names in this edit). I have long thought Wikipedia has this wrong - see my opening comment from January 2006 at
Talk:Piano Sonata No. 31 (Beethoven), shortly after I wrote that article. I would go further, and support expunging the ordinal from the article name altogether. For example, I know the Pastoral piano sonata as Op. 28, and couldn't have said what number it is without checking - and this isn't lack of learning (I studied the work quite seriously many years ago), but simply because I've never needed the information as I don't know anyone who thinks it's important. Perhaps this is a UK/US cultural difference? In my experience, the opus number is the one most often used, rather than its ordinal. Although the ordinal numbers are accepted, I don't believe they are generally seen as ideal; I think some musicologists believe that the inclusion of Op. 49 in the canon is a historical anomaly that gives them a prominence that outweighs their importance in Beethoven's output. And I think the same change should be made for the string quartets for analogous reasons (Op. 18 were not written in the order in which they were published, and the ordinal is simply not important). The symphonies are known by number rather than opus number ("Beethoven's Fifth"), but I do not believe Wikipedia should use this as a reason to impose that "standard" on the sonatas and string quartets. --
RobertG ♬
talk16:31, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree with Sneedy's reasons because I think the navigation template solved that issue long ago. If names that formatted into a good list were needed, the keys and nicknames would also be included.
RobertG brings up an interesting issue, though. Whether the ordinal or catalog number is preferred for a particular composer-subgenre is a broad spectrum. Sometimes its one, sometimes the other, often its a mix. For the Beethoven Sonatas, I see both. Wikipedia has standardized on ordinal numbers where possible. As an aside, ordinal numbers were abandoned for the Schubert sonatas because there are large discrepancies as to how to number the early ones and some of the fragments. Also, I wouldn't mind abandoning ordinal numbers for the Mozart Violin Sonatas for some of the same reasons (He wrote a dozen when he was very young that no one ever listens to (or could be flute sonatas or trios) plus there is a puzzling gap in the later sonatas that no source ever explains because the ordinal numbers are never used). But, the ordinal numbers are possible here. The ordinal numbers for the Beethoven sonatas are fixed and agreed upon and always included in more verbose lists (e.g. liner notes, book appendices, etc.).
So this is a broader issue which I think should be brought up at the
WP:CM discussion page. This same issue could be brought up about the Mozart Piano Sonatas, the Mendelssohn String Quartets, and several subgenres. I'll admit that part of what I like about the ordinal numbers is editorial simplicity. You don't have to worry about commas, capitalization, ordering of the qualifiers, etc. People go back and forth on those all the time and changing those in the title requires page moves. I don't know how important editorial concerns should be, though.
DavidRF (
talk)
18:20, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - I also prefer the versions without the serial numbers, but I don't object to the serial numbers strongly if they are the norm in some parts of the English-speaking world.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) is a guideline, and I feel that this case is right for an exception. --
Stfg (
talk)
17:09, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - As DavidRF said above, the ordinal numbers are universally agreed upon. Wikipedia naming conventions prefer shorter forms when they are unique and the reference is clear:
Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources (
WP:OFFICIALNAMES).
They should also be the most common names, see
WP:COMMONNAME. Hence we say
Bill Clinton rather than "
William Jefferson Clinton", and just
Brave New World instead of e.g.
Brave New World (Aldous Huxley book) even though there are several other works called "Brave New World". Furthermore, look at
List of compositions by Ludwig van Beethoven and you'll see that all Beethoven works are specified by ordinal number, not opus number -- yet another reason to keep the ordinal numbers. When I studied the Beethoven sonatas, I knew them by name first (e.g. "
Pathetique Sonata" or "
Hammerklavier Sonata"), secondly by their ordinal number and/or key, and lastly (if at all) by opus number. My piano teacher never mentioned opus numbers when asking me to play a sonata, instead going by ordinal number or key. I think this is typical. The ordinal numbers will also be more familiar anyway, simply because people will remember which book a sonata is in and where in the book it is, much more easily than a never-used opus number.
Oppose. The proposed names are absurdly long and awkward. In either format, all the pieces have names that are confusingly similar. I fail to see the upside of this kind of systemic naming. The titles should be in the form "Moonlight Sonata", "Pathetique Sonata", and so forth. If the piece is most commonly given by ordinal, call it that. If it is most commonly given by opus number, do it that way.
Kauffner (
talk)
11:13, 31 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Hmmm, I just googled: "Beethoven Pastoral Sonata -Wikipedia" returns 755,000, "beethoven piano sonata Op. 28 -Wikipedia" returns 899,000, "beethoven piano sonata No. 15 -Wikipedia" returns 3,000,000. (BTW, "Beethoven String Quartet No. 11 -Wikipedia" returns outnumber "beethoven String Quartet Op. 95 -Wikipedia" by about 4:1.) While googling isn't conclusive, I concede with considerable surprise that there is evidence that the ordinal is more popular than the opus no. for Beethoven piano sonatas. So I wistfully withdraw my support for changing the names of these articles, and accept the status quo. I reserve the right to think that the use of different titles for these articles (not including the ordinals) would be better, although I expect from my experience of this and similar discussions that such an idea is not going to become adopted. Invocations of
WP:COMMONNAME usually worry me if they imply that its axioms are popular usage and convenience - when the axioms are "recognizability, naturalness, precision, concision and consistency". On these terms, to me Piano Sonata in A flat, Op. 110 scores higher than Piano Sonata No. 31. I am, however, quite content to be in a minority of one, if so it is. --
RobertG ♬
talk12:23, 31 August 2011 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move: Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) → Piano Sonata No. 1 in F minor, Op. 2
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) →
Piano Sonata No. 1 in F Minor, Op. 2 No. 1 – The proposed titles are from Kempff's [http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-32-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B001J1A1Z8/ Beethoven: The 32 Piano Sonatas]. Other top selling recordings use similar formats. See Arrau's [http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000411Z/ Beethoven: Piano Sonatas], [http://www.amazon.com/25-Beethoven-Favorites-Ludwig-van/dp/B0000058HX/ 25 Beethoven Favorites], or Brendel's [http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Concertos/dp/B0043UOQ26/ Beethoven: Complete Piano Sonatas & Concertos]. "The title should refer to the work in whatever way is most common in other publications," according to
WP:Naming conventions (music). The cardinal-number-with-composer-in-parenthesis format should be used only when, "this method is insufficient for describing one piece individually".
Kauffner (
talk)
10:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose – 1) The naming derived from one particular album is clearly unsatisfactory (even your proposal doesn't strictly follow Amazon's listing of the Kempff album you cite). 2) You overlooked several other sentences and phrases in
WP:NCM with which the current naming scheme conforms. 3) The current naming scheme allows readers to find works in a predictable manner without requiring them already to know two or three additional details. 4) Have you seen the proposal
above which was closed on 6 September? BTW, there is only one article for Op. 49. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
12:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
We can follow only one source, but Brendel's titles and Arrau's titles are almost identical to Kempff's. So I think these forms are more or less standard.
Kauffner (
talk)
13:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
IMO, either the formal names (proposed above), or the common names (Moonlight Sonata, Pathétique Sonata, etc) would be a major improvement on the current "invented here" names.
Kauffner (
talk)
16:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There is no consensus among publishers about the canonical names for these sonatas; one of your "sources" lists: "Piano Sonata No. 21 in C major ('Waldstein'), Op. 53" which is not what you propose. We have naming guides because published sources will always lack consistency. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
02:42, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Inconsistency is everywhere. That's not a reason to use a made up name. "Do not, however, use obscure or made up names," according to
WP:PRECISION. I doubt if any publisher puts a "(Beethoven)" at the end of the names.
Kauffner (
talk)
04:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Whoa. You make sense, except for your last sentence. When we use parenthetic disambiguation the disambiguator we add in parentheses is not part of the name of the topic; it's just a disambiguator. So when evaluating a title as to whether it's "made up" or not, consider only the part preceding the parenthesized disambiguator. --
born2cYcle05:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Michael Bednarek. Have redirects if you have to have those names, but Beethoven spoke German. I am so happy to have easy access to the
St Matthew Passion, for example, although that name has nothing to do with anything its author had in mind, --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
13:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Gerda, you misunderstood. I wanted Kauffner to explain what exactly he meant by linking to the German article. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
I think I would support that for reasons of consistency. I can't think of any other examples where we use a nickname, however widespread, rather than the formal name. But this discussion probably belongs elsewhere...! --
Deskford (
talk)
15:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wiki "prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources....A search engine may help to collect this data," according to
WP:COMMONNAME.
Kauffner (
talk)
04:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Michael Bednarek, per
WP:NCM, and per the discussions in September above. I don't think circumstances have changed in the few weeks since the previous discussion was closed. --
Deskford (
talk)
14:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Generally Op. numbers are only used on WP when they are needed for disambig purposes like with Chopin works. The Op. number is NOT part of the title, so it shouldn't go into the title unless it needs to.
♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (
talk)
14:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You're avoiding the issue by shifting attention to my motives. If you cared about those, you would at least read the nomination, which you obviously haven't done.
Kauffner (
talk)
20:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. [Apologies for accidentally deleting a comment here, a short time ago. All fixed now.] In the case of these sonatas there are no ambiguities to be resolved by providing information beyond the traditional simple number. Let's be thankful for that! Compare Domenico Scarlatti's, and many other sets. NoeticaTea?05:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Inferior musical example
The current musical example:
is aesthetically inferior and contains numerous notational errors (an astounding average of nearly one error per measure). Why did this replace the previous example which does not have errors and aesthetically matches the other examples on the page:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to
classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the
guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the
project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music articles
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
– The main page for navigating among the sonatas is the
Category:Piano sonatas by Ludwig van Beethoven page, where currently all sonatas display only their basic cardinal number and do not display opus number. As many exeternal sources refer to these pieces by opus number it is potentially (and unnecessarily) difficult to identify the desired sonata by a cardinal number alone. This change would add the opus number to the page names and therefore make them available to the category page. This will improve the navigational usefulness of the category page. –
Sneedy (
talk)
13:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - The ordinal numbers are universally agreed upon and are also used. The navigation template
Template:Beethoven piano sonatas is available to ease navigate. I'm not sure the category page should worry about navigational usefulness but if there is that concern you could put the nav template on that page, too.
DavidRF (
talk)
13:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Michael - The category page is not a disambiguation page and is generated from the names of the individual pages. Category pages are primarily for navigation. There is nothing in either of the pages you mention that prohibit the move I'm proposing.
David - The opus number is standard for most of Beethoven's work (see
Opus number), and as I mentioned it is frequently used as a reference, so it's odd - and inconvenient - for it to be missing on the category page. The navigation template is useful but it would be redundant on the category page, even without the opus numbers. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Sneedy (
talk •
contribs)
13:56, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Support (see my comment below for why I struck this support) (note: I fixed the opus numbers in the proposed article names in this edit). I have long thought Wikipedia has this wrong - see my opening comment from January 2006 at
Talk:Piano Sonata No. 31 (Beethoven), shortly after I wrote that article. I would go further, and support expunging the ordinal from the article name altogether. For example, I know the Pastoral piano sonata as Op. 28, and couldn't have said what number it is without checking - and this isn't lack of learning (I studied the work quite seriously many years ago), but simply because I've never needed the information as I don't know anyone who thinks it's important. Perhaps this is a UK/US cultural difference? In my experience, the opus number is the one most often used, rather than its ordinal. Although the ordinal numbers are accepted, I don't believe they are generally seen as ideal; I think some musicologists believe that the inclusion of Op. 49 in the canon is a historical anomaly that gives them a prominence that outweighs their importance in Beethoven's output. And I think the same change should be made for the string quartets for analogous reasons (Op. 18 were not written in the order in which they were published, and the ordinal is simply not important). The symphonies are known by number rather than opus number ("Beethoven's Fifth"), but I do not believe Wikipedia should use this as a reason to impose that "standard" on the sonatas and string quartets. --
RobertG ♬
talk16:31, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree with Sneedy's reasons because I think the navigation template solved that issue long ago. If names that formatted into a good list were needed, the keys and nicknames would also be included.
RobertG brings up an interesting issue, though. Whether the ordinal or catalog number is preferred for a particular composer-subgenre is a broad spectrum. Sometimes its one, sometimes the other, often its a mix. For the Beethoven Sonatas, I see both. Wikipedia has standardized on ordinal numbers where possible. As an aside, ordinal numbers were abandoned for the Schubert sonatas because there are large discrepancies as to how to number the early ones and some of the fragments. Also, I wouldn't mind abandoning ordinal numbers for the Mozart Violin Sonatas for some of the same reasons (He wrote a dozen when he was very young that no one ever listens to (or could be flute sonatas or trios) plus there is a puzzling gap in the later sonatas that no source ever explains because the ordinal numbers are never used). But, the ordinal numbers are possible here. The ordinal numbers for the Beethoven sonatas are fixed and agreed upon and always included in more verbose lists (e.g. liner notes, book appendices, etc.).
So this is a broader issue which I think should be brought up at the
WP:CM discussion page. This same issue could be brought up about the Mozart Piano Sonatas, the Mendelssohn String Quartets, and several subgenres. I'll admit that part of what I like about the ordinal numbers is editorial simplicity. You don't have to worry about commas, capitalization, ordering of the qualifiers, etc. People go back and forth on those all the time and changing those in the title requires page moves. I don't know how important editorial concerns should be, though.
DavidRF (
talk)
18:20, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - I also prefer the versions without the serial numbers, but I don't object to the serial numbers strongly if they are the norm in some parts of the English-speaking world.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) is a guideline, and I feel that this case is right for an exception. --
Stfg (
talk)
17:09, 30 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - As DavidRF said above, the ordinal numbers are universally agreed upon. Wikipedia naming conventions prefer shorter forms when they are unique and the reference is clear:
Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources (
WP:OFFICIALNAMES).
They should also be the most common names, see
WP:COMMONNAME. Hence we say
Bill Clinton rather than "
William Jefferson Clinton", and just
Brave New World instead of e.g.
Brave New World (Aldous Huxley book) even though there are several other works called "Brave New World". Furthermore, look at
List of compositions by Ludwig van Beethoven and you'll see that all Beethoven works are specified by ordinal number, not opus number -- yet another reason to keep the ordinal numbers. When I studied the Beethoven sonatas, I knew them by name first (e.g. "
Pathetique Sonata" or "
Hammerklavier Sonata"), secondly by their ordinal number and/or key, and lastly (if at all) by opus number. My piano teacher never mentioned opus numbers when asking me to play a sonata, instead going by ordinal number or key. I think this is typical. The ordinal numbers will also be more familiar anyway, simply because people will remember which book a sonata is in and where in the book it is, much more easily than a never-used opus number.
Oppose. The proposed names are absurdly long and awkward. In either format, all the pieces have names that are confusingly similar. I fail to see the upside of this kind of systemic naming. The titles should be in the form "Moonlight Sonata", "Pathetique Sonata", and so forth. If the piece is most commonly given by ordinal, call it that. If it is most commonly given by opus number, do it that way.
Kauffner (
talk)
11:13, 31 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Hmmm, I just googled: "Beethoven Pastoral Sonata -Wikipedia" returns 755,000, "beethoven piano sonata Op. 28 -Wikipedia" returns 899,000, "beethoven piano sonata No. 15 -Wikipedia" returns 3,000,000. (BTW, "Beethoven String Quartet No. 11 -Wikipedia" returns outnumber "beethoven String Quartet Op. 95 -Wikipedia" by about 4:1.) While googling isn't conclusive, I concede with considerable surprise that there is evidence that the ordinal is more popular than the opus no. for Beethoven piano sonatas. So I wistfully withdraw my support for changing the names of these articles, and accept the status quo. I reserve the right to think that the use of different titles for these articles (not including the ordinals) would be better, although I expect from my experience of this and similar discussions that such an idea is not going to become adopted. Invocations of
WP:COMMONNAME usually worry me if they imply that its axioms are popular usage and convenience - when the axioms are "recognizability, naturalness, precision, concision and consistency". On these terms, to me Piano Sonata in A flat, Op. 110 scores higher than Piano Sonata No. 31. I am, however, quite content to be in a minority of one, if so it is. --
RobertG ♬
talk12:23, 31 August 2011 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move: Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) → Piano Sonata No. 1 in F minor, Op. 2
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) →
Piano Sonata No. 1 in F Minor, Op. 2 No. 1 – The proposed titles are from Kempff's [http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-32-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B001J1A1Z8/ Beethoven: The 32 Piano Sonatas]. Other top selling recordings use similar formats. See Arrau's [http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000411Z/ Beethoven: Piano Sonatas], [http://www.amazon.com/25-Beethoven-Favorites-Ludwig-van/dp/B0000058HX/ 25 Beethoven Favorites], or Brendel's [http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Concertos/dp/B0043UOQ26/ Beethoven: Complete Piano Sonatas & Concertos]. "The title should refer to the work in whatever way is most common in other publications," according to
WP:Naming conventions (music). The cardinal-number-with-composer-in-parenthesis format should be used only when, "this method is insufficient for describing one piece individually".
Kauffner (
talk)
10:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose – 1) The naming derived from one particular album is clearly unsatisfactory (even your proposal doesn't strictly follow Amazon's listing of the Kempff album you cite). 2) You overlooked several other sentences and phrases in
WP:NCM with which the current naming scheme conforms. 3) The current naming scheme allows readers to find works in a predictable manner without requiring them already to know two or three additional details. 4) Have you seen the proposal
above which was closed on 6 September? BTW, there is only one article for Op. 49. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
12:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
We can follow only one source, but Brendel's titles and Arrau's titles are almost identical to Kempff's. So I think these forms are more or less standard.
Kauffner (
talk)
13:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
IMO, either the formal names (proposed above), or the common names (Moonlight Sonata, Pathétique Sonata, etc) would be a major improvement on the current "invented here" names.
Kauffner (
talk)
16:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There is no consensus among publishers about the canonical names for these sonatas; one of your "sources" lists: "Piano Sonata No. 21 in C major ('Waldstein'), Op. 53" which is not what you propose. We have naming guides because published sources will always lack consistency. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
02:42, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Inconsistency is everywhere. That's not a reason to use a made up name. "Do not, however, use obscure or made up names," according to
WP:PRECISION. I doubt if any publisher puts a "(Beethoven)" at the end of the names.
Kauffner (
talk)
04:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Whoa. You make sense, except for your last sentence. When we use parenthetic disambiguation the disambiguator we add in parentheses is not part of the name of the topic; it's just a disambiguator. So when evaluating a title as to whether it's "made up" or not, consider only the part preceding the parenthesized disambiguator. --
born2cYcle05:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Michael Bednarek. Have redirects if you have to have those names, but Beethoven spoke German. I am so happy to have easy access to the
St Matthew Passion, for example, although that name has nothing to do with anything its author had in mind, --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
13:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Gerda, you misunderstood. I wanted Kauffner to explain what exactly he meant by linking to the German article. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
I think I would support that for reasons of consistency. I can't think of any other examples where we use a nickname, however widespread, rather than the formal name. But this discussion probably belongs elsewhere...! --
Deskford (
talk)
15:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wiki "prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources....A search engine may help to collect this data," according to
WP:COMMONNAME.
Kauffner (
talk)
04:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Michael Bednarek, per
WP:NCM, and per the discussions in September above. I don't think circumstances have changed in the few weeks since the previous discussion was closed. --
Deskford (
talk)
14:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Generally Op. numbers are only used on WP when they are needed for disambig purposes like with Chopin works. The Op. number is NOT part of the title, so it shouldn't go into the title unless it needs to.
♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (
talk)
14:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You're avoiding the issue by shifting attention to my motives. If you cared about those, you would at least read the nomination, which you obviously haven't done.
Kauffner (
talk)
20:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. [Apologies for accidentally deleting a comment here, a short time ago. All fixed now.] In the case of these sonatas there are no ambiguities to be resolved by providing information beyond the traditional simple number. Let's be thankful for that! Compare Domenico Scarlatti's, and many other sets. NoeticaTea?05:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Inferior musical example
The current musical example:
is aesthetically inferior and contains numerous notational errors (an astounding average of nearly one error per measure). Why did this replace the previous example which does not have errors and aesthetically matches the other examples on the page: