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The sonata seems like walking in the quiet "moonlight" in the first movement, but the third movement is aggressive and fast-paced. "Quasi una fantasia" is a more accurate description (describes whole movement as a fantasy), because "Moonlight" only applies to one movement. — Stevey7788 ( talk) 04:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
without wishing to sound curmudgeonly, is there really any need to catalog all the videogames in which moonlight sonata has featured? What possible use or interest does that have? ElectricRay 15:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I must say, in general, trivia sections in WP articles seem to work but this one was truly boring, dreksome, unhelpful cruft. Trust me, I would have restored the information if I thought it was helpful. Wyss 00:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello Electric Ray and Wyss,
I share your feelings, but motivated by practical concerns I've resurrected the material, relocated to a separate article. The problem is that if you just delete the popular culture material, people will just add it back in--the flow is endless. With a separate article, you can accommodate the flow without harming the main article. Also, I think that the pop culture lists have a certain anthropological value; i.e. for what they tell us about our times.
I hope this arrangement is ok with you.
Yours truly,
Opus33
16:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Eminently sensible. I did the same for the Marduk article - the reason I didn't here was that the actual information was so stupid I really couldn't bring myself to do it. But I agree with your reasoning. ElectricRay 21:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
This piece NEEDS to be re-recorded by an experienced pianist, as both the novice pianist and the midi recording will not work. The Novice pianist has problems which have been outlined before in this talk page, but the Midi piece has not had any critical review. As a MIDI piece, it doesn't exactly have any dynamics. If anyone on here can play this piece with a human touch, PLEASE, do it. The piece is nothing without emotion and dynamics. -- Tony (Talk), Vandalism Ninja 02:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I concur with a similar deep feeling Benjaminstewart05 16:38 12 March 2006 (UTC)
There is an anecdote about how this sonata was christened "Moonlight" when Beethoven played it for a doctor girl. Is there any credibility for this story?
An anonymous editor added this citation:
without saying what it is or referring to it in the text. Until (s)he identifies it, I think we're probably safer not including it in the article. Opus33 16:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone post a photo of moonlight shinning on Lake Lucern? Thank you. Cigsandalcohol 02:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
68.54.132.201 added the remark that the ogg file of the first movement is "performed by a novice pianist". I downloaded the file to check up on this, and it seems that 68.54.132.201's remark might actually be a bit generous. There are many wrong notes, and also places where the performer hesitates, apparently trying to remember what come next. I feel that this performance is introduction to the work for people who have never heard it before, and does us no credit as an encyclopedia.
Therefore I ask: would anyone complain if I deleted the link to this sound file? And might it be possible to find something to take its place? Ideally, we should have all three movements in any event. Opus33 16:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Whoa, I didn't even notice this was removed until just now. I admit the file isn't perfect, but until someone provides a better one, having an imperfect rendition is better than none-at-all. As such, I have restored it. →Raul654 05:11, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I came across this web page by way of altavista which has a recording of the moonlight sonata. Sound quality isn't great, and I'm not sure about copyright and all, but it's there if you want to give it a listen. Just pointing it out.. Platypus01 23:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Not to be mean, but after listening to the first movement provided by novice pianist I really only got 3 letters to put: CMI - Cannot Make it. I must say I as a beginner pianist who only have training less than a year can play better for this piece. Just that I don't know now should I play pp or p because I think pp too soft.
Anyone can contribute a replacement, please do so.
this piece is in the classical period (1750-1820). Is its with romantic style or classical style? (romantic period: 1820-1900) Jackzhp 03:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
"Beethoven was known to break hammers and strings when he played, and it is easy to imagine this happening when he performed this movement."
I think not. The rest of the paragraph already conveys the sense that "flamboyant" playing is needed for the performance of this movement. Spartan
Hello!!! Whoever added back the above line did not explain why it's necessary to the paragraph. I specifically doubt the importance of "it is easy to imagine this happening when he performed this movement."
Hello, I agree that "senza sordini", "without dampers" sounds more sensible, and some editions of the sonata put it this way. But my Urtext edition uses the singular "sordino", and Charles Rosen, in his book about the Beethoven sonatas, uses the singular too (and he's obsessed with using original editions, so I tend to trust him here). Perhaps Beethoven's Italian wasn't perfect? Or perhaps it's ok in Italian to say it either way?
In any event, the phrase in question is a quotation, and so I don't think it's legit for us Wikipedia editors to change it. Opus33 21:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this capitalization / spelling really correct? Why no capital on the third word? ELLIOTTCABLE 23:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Under "Score", the "imslp.org" link is dead(October 19th 2007), any related or relocated sites?- 70.74.122.87 07:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The "Form" section is identical to an article on About.com, which is supposedly written by Aaron Green ( http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/onestopbeethoven/a/moonlightsonata.htm). Who copied whom? If this is in fact an excerpt from his article (and not the other way around), there should at least be a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.68.63.5 ( talk) 23:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I added the tag next to the respective word because I wasn't sure if that was an actual piano term. Remove it and bluelink it if it is. 68.148.164.166 ( talk) 08:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
"The modern piano has a much longer sustain time than the instruments of Beethoven's day. Therefore, his instruction cannot be followed by pianists playing modern instruments without creating an unpleasantly dissonant sound."
I couldn't disagree more. First of all, we have no reliable source for this information at all. On top of that, if you play it Pianissimo properly it will counteract that "unpleasantly dissonant sound." Additionally, leaving the sustain on causes the octive strings to resonate, and as long as you don't play it too fast (unlike most recordings I've heard on the net) the reverb created by that effect is quite nice and in my opinion, intentional.
I don't usually play on $70,000.00 pianos, but "My piano is nicer than Beethoven's" is a very poor excuse to make if you can't get the song to sound good the way it was written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.193.251.130 ( talk) 21:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, Andras Schiff has mentioned in his Guardian series of lectures that the pedal marks http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/audio/2006/nov/22/culture1414 he has mentioned that the pedal marks are to be followed. However, this is only his personal opinion, so I'm not too sure about that. chinzh —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC).
I've removed "Its original title, Quasi una Fantasia, was in keeping with that dedication" ("that dedication" being the one to Giulietta Guicciardi) - I'm pretty sure that the "quasi una fantasia" is there because of the rather free form of the sonata. It has nothing to do with the Countess. -- Camembert
all-about-beethoven Readded all about beethoven page has some good pdf content in it sourced from gutenberg and mutopia which includes piano scores for moonlight sonata and letters of Beethoven. Kasaalan ( talk) 21:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I found a painting titled Moonlight on Lake Lucerne with the Rigi in the Distance,Switzerland by Joseph Mallord William Turner, painted in 1841 http://www.whitworth.manchester.ac.uk/collection/advsearch/objdisphigh/index.html?irn=16&Where=TitObjectRating%3D'highlight'+and+exists+(TitCollectionGroup_tab+Where+TitCollectionGroup+Contains+'historic-drawings')&StartAt=1. Since the sonata is nicknamed "Moonlight" because of a comment by a critic on how it reminded him of Lake Lucerne, it seems like this would be a nice picture to have in the article. Would there be a way to get this picture onto Wikimedia Commons in a way that suits copyright? Then it could be linked to the article. PianoMelody ( talk) 04:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Is this quote/story of Lennon's worth adding to this page too? I think so but enough others may not. Kansaikiwi ( talk) 01:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Could someone talk more about the 3rd Movement? Every time I hear this movement, it always strikes me how fresh and modern it still sounds. Why is this? Is it because there are timeless qualities to the music, or is it that modern music today owes a great debt to this style? Viriditas ( talk) 12:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
This information has been deleted [1]. Although this information does not belong in the main article, I am listing some here as useful. ♫ Cricket02 18:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Ludwig van Beethoven's Piano Sonata opus 27 no. 2 in C sharp minor, often called the Moonlight Sonata, is one of the composer's most popular works. The first movement is particularly well known and often learned for amateur performances. The work, and particularly its first movement, frequently appear in works of popular culture. The following is a list of notable appearances.
Figure Skating Ekaterina Gordeeva and Sergei Grinkov, 1988 and 1994 Olympic champions in pairs figure skating, performed their long program in the 1993-1994 season to Beethoven. This program is known as their "Moonlight Sonata" program, although only two-thirds of the skate are performed to the Piano Sonata No. 14; it begins with the first movement of Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven) Pathétique (Grave: allegro di molto e con brio), continues with the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata (Adagio Sostenuto), and ends with the third movement (Presto Agitato). Gordeeva and Grinkov won the 1994 Olympic gold medal in Lillehammer with their free skate to this program.
Literature
Music
Film
Category:Piano sonatas by Ludwig van Beethoven Category:Classical music in popular culture Category:Ludwig van Beethoven
It's not a 'song', you cretin. Pfistermeister ( talk) 23:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I have sampled a number of Beethoven and Mozart articles and none of them use italics for the title. This seems inconsistent. Can anyone enlighten me on the correct use? Ndufva ( talk) 02:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Trivial: In third paragraph, the parenthetical should read (Italian for Almost a Fantasy). As it stands, with the colon, it seems to be saying the English phrase is Italian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChicagoLarry ( talk • contribs) 22:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Has a lot of mistakes. Should be changed Midi file would be better
at least the midi file doesnt make mistakes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.88.176.161 ( talk) 04:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree. What ever happened to the original third movement that was here a few months ago? I found that version particularly good, but now I've come back it's been replaced by, in my opinion, by a version played by someone with a lot less skill. 91.85.67.245 ( talk) 13:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC) J
The result of the move request was: Moved Danger ( talk) 00:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC) Danger ( talk) 00:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven) → Moonlight Sonata – The proposed name is vastly common on Google Books than "Sonata No. 14", as you can see from this ngram. "Moonlight Sonata" gets 9,530 post-1990 hits, compared to 632 for "Sonata No. 14." Beethoven's sonatas currently all have article titles in this format, i.e. No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, etc. IMO, this is a most unfortunate convention since it makes all the names confusingly similar. It would be like using Zip codes instead of city names. After all, the point of names is to allow us to easily distinguish among similar items. Kauffner ( talk) 07:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
To my understanding, one oppose, one support is no consensus. The article should be moved back, as the Appassionata, the work deserves better than a nick name in a language its creator would not have used, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 12:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
You count the nominator, so the math for the RM is 2-1. Isn't "Piano Sonata" also in a language Beethoven wouldn't understand? The title "Piano Sonata No. 14" is a short form as well. The formal name is absurdly long. Kauffner ( talk) 00:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 11:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
currently:
The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C♯ minor "Quasi una fantasia", Op. 27, No. 2, by Ludwig van Beethoven, popularly known as the Moonlight Sonata (Mondscheinsonate in German), was completed in 1801. [1] The sonata was dedicated in 1802 to his pupil, the then 20-year-old [2] Countess Julie Guicciardi, [3] with whom Beethoven was, or had briefly been, in love, [4] and who was also first suspected to have been the composer's Immortal Beloved.
It is one of Beethoven's most popular piano sonatas, as well as one of his most famous compositions for the piano. The name "Moonlight" Sonata was coined in 1832 (five years after Beethoven's death) by the music critic Ludwig Rellstab, who likened the effect of the first movement to that of real moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne. [1] [5]
Beethoven included the phrase "Quasi una fantasia" ( Italian: Almost a fantasy) [6] in the title partly because the sonata does not follow the traditional movement arrangement of fast-slow-[fast]-fast. Instead, the Moonlight sonata possesses an end-weighted trajectory; with the rapid music held off until the third movement. To be sure, the deviation from traditional sonata form is intentional. In his analysis of the Moonlight sonata, German critic Paul Bekker states that “The opening sonata-allegro movement gave the work a definite character from the beginning... which succeeding movements could supplement but not change. Beethoven rebelled against this determinative quality in the first movement. He wanted a prelude, an introduction, not a proposition.” [7]
The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor, Sonata quasi una fantasia", Op. 27, No. 2, by Ludwig van Beethoven, popularly known as the Moonlight Sonata (Mondscheinsonate in German), was completed in 1801. The sonata was dedicated in 1802 to his pupil Giulietta Guicciardi.
Beethoven included the phrase "quasi una fantasia" ( Italian: "like a fantasy") in the title because the sonata does not follow the traditional movement arrangement of fast-slow-[fast]-fast. Instead, the three movements build in tempo from a slow and extremely soft Adagio sostenuto to Allegretto and finally Presto.
The sonata is one of the most popular piano sonatas, as well as one of Beethoven's most famous compositions for the piano. The name Mondscheinsonate (Moonlight Sonata) was coined in 1832, five years after Beethoven's death, by the music critic Ludwig Rellstab, who likened the effect of the first movement to that of real moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:06, 03 January 2012 (UTC)
OK, I give up. Dohn joe has been rewriting the article lede, and somehow I'm not being able to "undo" all of his changes. Someone else, please?
Milkunderwood (
talk)
21:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Why the state of emergency? On responding to the request to participate in the great moonshine title debate, I noticed that the lede could do with some tlc, and acted accordingly. Apparently, I'm not the only one. Just a couple of gf edits, MistyMorn ( talk) 22:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
The Henle edition from which I play says:
End of facts. no C-sharp minor (that is deduced from the markings), the name of the lady as Beethoven wrote it (not a family name)
The article tells us (told us, that was improved since, thank you!): "The name "Moonlight" Sonata was coined in 1832 (five years after Beethoven's death) by the music critic Ludwig Rellstab, who likened the effect of the first movement to that of real moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne." That is wrong, the source just says: "Writing in 1832 he likened the sonata to the wild scenery bordering Lake Lucerne, seen from a boat by moonlight." I wonder when the term "Mondscheinsonate" was actually "coined" in print and when it was translated to English, both much later than when the piece was written.
The same source also informs: "The Moonlight Sonata is more properly described by its title Sonata quasi una fantasia, Opus 27 No.1, in the key of C Sharp Minor."
A good common name for the facts is Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven), a good name for the myths is Moonlight Sonata, and perhaps we should really have two articles. As long as we have only one I vote for the facts. If policy is against that, I question the policy, it's not holy scriptures, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Have a look at this edit of mine, which connects Beethoven to the writer Johann Gottfried Seume, via a supposed association between the Moonlight and Seume's poem Die Beterin. I must say I had never heard of Seume or his poem before now, but I checked out the Moonlight Sonata entry in the 1954 Grove's Dictionary on my shelves, and there the association was debunked, although it was described as "a picture", not a poem. So, since we're talking about exploding myths ... -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Two atrocious doubts:
Julie Countess Guicciardi was named (after her birth in 1782, which is also two - significant - years earlier than usually reported) "Julie", more importantly, she was also almost always called (in letters and other references) "Julie". The italianised version "Giulietta" was occasionally used as a nickname (perhaps also more in Italy than in Austria); she moved south after her marriage to Count Gallenberg, among others because she was obviously not interested in Beethoven (who incidentally was also called "Luigi" or "Louis" on occasion - esp. by the Brunsviks). The latter dedicated the [in?]famous so-called (not by him!!!) "Moonlight" Sonata to her as a revenge for an unwanted gift by her mother (as documented in a letter), on which he wrote her name as "Giulietta" (perhaps, even mockingly?).
All these details (and more) can be found in Steblin (2009) (a work based exclusively on documents, e.g., birth and marriage certificates, or other archival research - as opposed to armchair speculation; see also Beethoven's Only Beloved: Josephine!, [2]). The fact that overwhelmingly a falsehood is to be found in various "sources" (?) only documents how rumors, myths, legends, anecdotes (and forgeries - see Schindler) rule the "Web" world. Or can anyone correct these 9,900 wrong references???
And "Giulietta" being the " Immortal Beloved" has long since been discredited: It was the first conjecture, brought up by Schindler, after talking to Franz von Brunsvik who was keen to distract any suspicion from his sister Josephine (for good reason). Schindler has later been exposed as a fraud (as already suspected by Thayer). John E Klapproth ( talk) 01:12, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps we can add that Beethoven referred to her as "Giulietta" in his dedication. Would that resolve the issue raised above by Dohn joe? But perhaps too much detail for an already overburdened lede. Perhaps better in the main article, IMO, once the lede can be trimmed to an appropriate size/style. MistyMorn ( talk) 01:42, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I added Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Giulietta Guicciardi as a new article, still to be vetted. John E Klapproth ( talk) 02:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Misty Morn added this ref from Amazon.co.uk for the Liszt quote re: "flower between two chasms". I replaced it with this Google Books cite, because, for me at least, the relevant pages in the Amazon cite were blocked. Could someone else try out the link to see if it works for them? If not, could we replace the link with the Google Books link? I realize that snippets are less preferable, but if navigation is an issue at the Amazon link, a snippet is better than nothing.... Dohn joe ( talk) 21:07, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I see "Sonata quasi una fantasia" redirects here. But how about its fellow sonata quasi una fantasia? MistyMorn ( talk) 10:23, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Do we need this redirect: Adiago sostenuto? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 00:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I added a new section about the name. Feel free to add/subtract as you see fit. Dohn joe ( talk) 20:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
By now we have a slim and factual intro in chronological order. There were at least the years between 1801 and 1837 when no "Moonlight Sonata" existed. All facts during that time are wrong if "Moonlight Sonata" is used. One more reason to move it back, imo. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 18:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
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Steblin (2009) reports how Beethoven obviously dedicated this Sonata to Julie as a "revenge" for a gift he had received from her mother. This is in line with Beethoven's habit of never (publicly) dedicating any composition to anyone as a sign of personal affection or devotion, but rather as part of a business transaction (i.e., sold for money). See Thayer (in Elliot Forbes (1967, ed.): Thayer’s Life of Beethoven. 2nd ed. Princeton: University Press, p. 71): “Beethoven’s dedications of important works throughout his life were, as a rule, made to persons from whom he had received, or from whom he had hopes of receiving, pecuniary benefits.”
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The sonata seems like walking in the quiet "moonlight" in the first movement, but the third movement is aggressive and fast-paced. "Quasi una fantasia" is a more accurate description (describes whole movement as a fantasy), because "Moonlight" only applies to one movement. — Stevey7788 ( talk) 04:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
without wishing to sound curmudgeonly, is there really any need to catalog all the videogames in which moonlight sonata has featured? What possible use or interest does that have? ElectricRay 15:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I must say, in general, trivia sections in WP articles seem to work but this one was truly boring, dreksome, unhelpful cruft. Trust me, I would have restored the information if I thought it was helpful. Wyss 00:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello Electric Ray and Wyss,
I share your feelings, but motivated by practical concerns I've resurrected the material, relocated to a separate article. The problem is that if you just delete the popular culture material, people will just add it back in--the flow is endless. With a separate article, you can accommodate the flow without harming the main article. Also, I think that the pop culture lists have a certain anthropological value; i.e. for what they tell us about our times.
I hope this arrangement is ok with you.
Yours truly,
Opus33
16:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Eminently sensible. I did the same for the Marduk article - the reason I didn't here was that the actual information was so stupid I really couldn't bring myself to do it. But I agree with your reasoning. ElectricRay 21:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
This piece NEEDS to be re-recorded by an experienced pianist, as both the novice pianist and the midi recording will not work. The Novice pianist has problems which have been outlined before in this talk page, but the Midi piece has not had any critical review. As a MIDI piece, it doesn't exactly have any dynamics. If anyone on here can play this piece with a human touch, PLEASE, do it. The piece is nothing without emotion and dynamics. -- Tony (Talk), Vandalism Ninja 02:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I concur with a similar deep feeling Benjaminstewart05 16:38 12 March 2006 (UTC)
There is an anecdote about how this sonata was christened "Moonlight" when Beethoven played it for a doctor girl. Is there any credibility for this story?
An anonymous editor added this citation:
without saying what it is or referring to it in the text. Until (s)he identifies it, I think we're probably safer not including it in the article. Opus33 16:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone post a photo of moonlight shinning on Lake Lucern? Thank you. Cigsandalcohol 02:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
68.54.132.201 added the remark that the ogg file of the first movement is "performed by a novice pianist". I downloaded the file to check up on this, and it seems that 68.54.132.201's remark might actually be a bit generous. There are many wrong notes, and also places where the performer hesitates, apparently trying to remember what come next. I feel that this performance is introduction to the work for people who have never heard it before, and does us no credit as an encyclopedia.
Therefore I ask: would anyone complain if I deleted the link to this sound file? And might it be possible to find something to take its place? Ideally, we should have all three movements in any event. Opus33 16:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Whoa, I didn't even notice this was removed until just now. I admit the file isn't perfect, but until someone provides a better one, having an imperfect rendition is better than none-at-all. As such, I have restored it. →Raul654 05:11, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I came across this web page by way of altavista which has a recording of the moonlight sonata. Sound quality isn't great, and I'm not sure about copyright and all, but it's there if you want to give it a listen. Just pointing it out.. Platypus01 23:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Not to be mean, but after listening to the first movement provided by novice pianist I really only got 3 letters to put: CMI - Cannot Make it. I must say I as a beginner pianist who only have training less than a year can play better for this piece. Just that I don't know now should I play pp or p because I think pp too soft.
Anyone can contribute a replacement, please do so.
this piece is in the classical period (1750-1820). Is its with romantic style or classical style? (romantic period: 1820-1900) Jackzhp 03:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
"Beethoven was known to break hammers and strings when he played, and it is easy to imagine this happening when he performed this movement."
I think not. The rest of the paragraph already conveys the sense that "flamboyant" playing is needed for the performance of this movement. Spartan
Hello!!! Whoever added back the above line did not explain why it's necessary to the paragraph. I specifically doubt the importance of "it is easy to imagine this happening when he performed this movement."
Hello, I agree that "senza sordini", "without dampers" sounds more sensible, and some editions of the sonata put it this way. But my Urtext edition uses the singular "sordino", and Charles Rosen, in his book about the Beethoven sonatas, uses the singular too (and he's obsessed with using original editions, so I tend to trust him here). Perhaps Beethoven's Italian wasn't perfect? Or perhaps it's ok in Italian to say it either way?
In any event, the phrase in question is a quotation, and so I don't think it's legit for us Wikipedia editors to change it. Opus33 21:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this capitalization / spelling really correct? Why no capital on the third word? ELLIOTTCABLE 23:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Under "Score", the "imslp.org" link is dead(October 19th 2007), any related or relocated sites?- 70.74.122.87 07:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The "Form" section is identical to an article on About.com, which is supposedly written by Aaron Green ( http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/onestopbeethoven/a/moonlightsonata.htm). Who copied whom? If this is in fact an excerpt from his article (and not the other way around), there should at least be a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.68.63.5 ( talk) 23:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I added the tag next to the respective word because I wasn't sure if that was an actual piano term. Remove it and bluelink it if it is. 68.148.164.166 ( talk) 08:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
"The modern piano has a much longer sustain time than the instruments of Beethoven's day. Therefore, his instruction cannot be followed by pianists playing modern instruments without creating an unpleasantly dissonant sound."
I couldn't disagree more. First of all, we have no reliable source for this information at all. On top of that, if you play it Pianissimo properly it will counteract that "unpleasantly dissonant sound." Additionally, leaving the sustain on causes the octive strings to resonate, and as long as you don't play it too fast (unlike most recordings I've heard on the net) the reverb created by that effect is quite nice and in my opinion, intentional.
I don't usually play on $70,000.00 pianos, but "My piano is nicer than Beethoven's" is a very poor excuse to make if you can't get the song to sound good the way it was written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.193.251.130 ( talk) 21:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, Andras Schiff has mentioned in his Guardian series of lectures that the pedal marks http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/audio/2006/nov/22/culture1414 he has mentioned that the pedal marks are to be followed. However, this is only his personal opinion, so I'm not too sure about that. chinzh —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC).
I've removed "Its original title, Quasi una Fantasia, was in keeping with that dedication" ("that dedication" being the one to Giulietta Guicciardi) - I'm pretty sure that the "quasi una fantasia" is there because of the rather free form of the sonata. It has nothing to do with the Countess. -- Camembert
all-about-beethoven Readded all about beethoven page has some good pdf content in it sourced from gutenberg and mutopia which includes piano scores for moonlight sonata and letters of Beethoven. Kasaalan ( talk) 21:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I found a painting titled Moonlight on Lake Lucerne with the Rigi in the Distance,Switzerland by Joseph Mallord William Turner, painted in 1841 http://www.whitworth.manchester.ac.uk/collection/advsearch/objdisphigh/index.html?irn=16&Where=TitObjectRating%3D'highlight'+and+exists+(TitCollectionGroup_tab+Where+TitCollectionGroup+Contains+'historic-drawings')&StartAt=1. Since the sonata is nicknamed "Moonlight" because of a comment by a critic on how it reminded him of Lake Lucerne, it seems like this would be a nice picture to have in the article. Would there be a way to get this picture onto Wikimedia Commons in a way that suits copyright? Then it could be linked to the article. PianoMelody ( talk) 04:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Is this quote/story of Lennon's worth adding to this page too? I think so but enough others may not. Kansaikiwi ( talk) 01:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Could someone talk more about the 3rd Movement? Every time I hear this movement, it always strikes me how fresh and modern it still sounds. Why is this? Is it because there are timeless qualities to the music, or is it that modern music today owes a great debt to this style? Viriditas ( talk) 12:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
This information has been deleted [1]. Although this information does not belong in the main article, I am listing some here as useful. ♫ Cricket02 18:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Ludwig van Beethoven's Piano Sonata opus 27 no. 2 in C sharp minor, often called the Moonlight Sonata, is one of the composer's most popular works. The first movement is particularly well known and often learned for amateur performances. The work, and particularly its first movement, frequently appear in works of popular culture. The following is a list of notable appearances.
Figure Skating Ekaterina Gordeeva and Sergei Grinkov, 1988 and 1994 Olympic champions in pairs figure skating, performed their long program in the 1993-1994 season to Beethoven. This program is known as their "Moonlight Sonata" program, although only two-thirds of the skate are performed to the Piano Sonata No. 14; it begins with the first movement of Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven) Pathétique (Grave: allegro di molto e con brio), continues with the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata (Adagio Sostenuto), and ends with the third movement (Presto Agitato). Gordeeva and Grinkov won the 1994 Olympic gold medal in Lillehammer with their free skate to this program.
Literature
Music
Film
Category:Piano sonatas by Ludwig van Beethoven Category:Classical music in popular culture Category:Ludwig van Beethoven
It's not a 'song', you cretin. Pfistermeister ( talk) 23:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I have sampled a number of Beethoven and Mozart articles and none of them use italics for the title. This seems inconsistent. Can anyone enlighten me on the correct use? Ndufva ( talk) 02:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Trivial: In third paragraph, the parenthetical should read (Italian for Almost a Fantasy). As it stands, with the colon, it seems to be saying the English phrase is Italian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChicagoLarry ( talk • contribs) 22:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Has a lot of mistakes. Should be changed Midi file would be better
at least the midi file doesnt make mistakes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.88.176.161 ( talk) 04:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree. What ever happened to the original third movement that was here a few months ago? I found that version particularly good, but now I've come back it's been replaced by, in my opinion, by a version played by someone with a lot less skill. 91.85.67.245 ( talk) 13:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC) J
The result of the move request was: Moved Danger ( talk) 00:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC) Danger ( talk) 00:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven) → Moonlight Sonata – The proposed name is vastly common on Google Books than "Sonata No. 14", as you can see from this ngram. "Moonlight Sonata" gets 9,530 post-1990 hits, compared to 632 for "Sonata No. 14." Beethoven's sonatas currently all have article titles in this format, i.e. No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, etc. IMO, this is a most unfortunate convention since it makes all the names confusingly similar. It would be like using Zip codes instead of city names. After all, the point of names is to allow us to easily distinguish among similar items. Kauffner ( talk) 07:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
To my understanding, one oppose, one support is no consensus. The article should be moved back, as the Appassionata, the work deserves better than a nick name in a language its creator would not have used, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 12:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
You count the nominator, so the math for the RM is 2-1. Isn't "Piano Sonata" also in a language Beethoven wouldn't understand? The title "Piano Sonata No. 14" is a short form as well. The formal name is absurdly long. Kauffner ( talk) 00:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 11:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
currently:
The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C♯ minor "Quasi una fantasia", Op. 27, No. 2, by Ludwig van Beethoven, popularly known as the Moonlight Sonata (Mondscheinsonate in German), was completed in 1801. [1] The sonata was dedicated in 1802 to his pupil, the then 20-year-old [2] Countess Julie Guicciardi, [3] with whom Beethoven was, or had briefly been, in love, [4] and who was also first suspected to have been the composer's Immortal Beloved.
It is one of Beethoven's most popular piano sonatas, as well as one of his most famous compositions for the piano. The name "Moonlight" Sonata was coined in 1832 (five years after Beethoven's death) by the music critic Ludwig Rellstab, who likened the effect of the first movement to that of real moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne. [1] [5]
Beethoven included the phrase "Quasi una fantasia" ( Italian: Almost a fantasy) [6] in the title partly because the sonata does not follow the traditional movement arrangement of fast-slow-[fast]-fast. Instead, the Moonlight sonata possesses an end-weighted trajectory; with the rapid music held off until the third movement. To be sure, the deviation from traditional sonata form is intentional. In his analysis of the Moonlight sonata, German critic Paul Bekker states that “The opening sonata-allegro movement gave the work a definite character from the beginning... which succeeding movements could supplement but not change. Beethoven rebelled against this determinative quality in the first movement. He wanted a prelude, an introduction, not a proposition.” [7]
The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor, Sonata quasi una fantasia", Op. 27, No. 2, by Ludwig van Beethoven, popularly known as the Moonlight Sonata (Mondscheinsonate in German), was completed in 1801. The sonata was dedicated in 1802 to his pupil Giulietta Guicciardi.
Beethoven included the phrase "quasi una fantasia" ( Italian: "like a fantasy") in the title because the sonata does not follow the traditional movement arrangement of fast-slow-[fast]-fast. Instead, the three movements build in tempo from a slow and extremely soft Adagio sostenuto to Allegretto and finally Presto.
The sonata is one of the most popular piano sonatas, as well as one of Beethoven's most famous compositions for the piano. The name Mondscheinsonate (Moonlight Sonata) was coined in 1832, five years after Beethoven's death, by the music critic Ludwig Rellstab, who likened the effect of the first movement to that of real moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:06, 03 January 2012 (UTC)
OK, I give up. Dohn joe has been rewriting the article lede, and somehow I'm not being able to "undo" all of his changes. Someone else, please?
Milkunderwood (
talk)
21:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Why the state of emergency? On responding to the request to participate in the great moonshine title debate, I noticed that the lede could do with some tlc, and acted accordingly. Apparently, I'm not the only one. Just a couple of gf edits, MistyMorn ( talk) 22:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
The Henle edition from which I play says:
End of facts. no C-sharp minor (that is deduced from the markings), the name of the lady as Beethoven wrote it (not a family name)
The article tells us (told us, that was improved since, thank you!): "The name "Moonlight" Sonata was coined in 1832 (five years after Beethoven's death) by the music critic Ludwig Rellstab, who likened the effect of the first movement to that of real moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne." That is wrong, the source just says: "Writing in 1832 he likened the sonata to the wild scenery bordering Lake Lucerne, seen from a boat by moonlight." I wonder when the term "Mondscheinsonate" was actually "coined" in print and when it was translated to English, both much later than when the piece was written.
The same source also informs: "The Moonlight Sonata is more properly described by its title Sonata quasi una fantasia, Opus 27 No.1, in the key of C Sharp Minor."
A good common name for the facts is Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven), a good name for the myths is Moonlight Sonata, and perhaps we should really have two articles. As long as we have only one I vote for the facts. If policy is against that, I question the policy, it's not holy scriptures, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Have a look at this edit of mine, which connects Beethoven to the writer Johann Gottfried Seume, via a supposed association between the Moonlight and Seume's poem Die Beterin. I must say I had never heard of Seume or his poem before now, but I checked out the Moonlight Sonata entry in the 1954 Grove's Dictionary on my shelves, and there the association was debunked, although it was described as "a picture", not a poem. So, since we're talking about exploding myths ... -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Two atrocious doubts:
Julie Countess Guicciardi was named (after her birth in 1782, which is also two - significant - years earlier than usually reported) "Julie", more importantly, she was also almost always called (in letters and other references) "Julie". The italianised version "Giulietta" was occasionally used as a nickname (perhaps also more in Italy than in Austria); she moved south after her marriage to Count Gallenberg, among others because she was obviously not interested in Beethoven (who incidentally was also called "Luigi" or "Louis" on occasion - esp. by the Brunsviks). The latter dedicated the [in?]famous so-called (not by him!!!) "Moonlight" Sonata to her as a revenge for an unwanted gift by her mother (as documented in a letter), on which he wrote her name as "Giulietta" (perhaps, even mockingly?).
All these details (and more) can be found in Steblin (2009) (a work based exclusively on documents, e.g., birth and marriage certificates, or other archival research - as opposed to armchair speculation; see also Beethoven's Only Beloved: Josephine!, [2]). The fact that overwhelmingly a falsehood is to be found in various "sources" (?) only documents how rumors, myths, legends, anecdotes (and forgeries - see Schindler) rule the "Web" world. Or can anyone correct these 9,900 wrong references???
And "Giulietta" being the " Immortal Beloved" has long since been discredited: It was the first conjecture, brought up by Schindler, after talking to Franz von Brunsvik who was keen to distract any suspicion from his sister Josephine (for good reason). Schindler has later been exposed as a fraud (as already suspected by Thayer). John E Klapproth ( talk) 01:12, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps we can add that Beethoven referred to her as "Giulietta" in his dedication. Would that resolve the issue raised above by Dohn joe? But perhaps too much detail for an already overburdened lede. Perhaps better in the main article, IMO, once the lede can be trimmed to an appropriate size/style. MistyMorn ( talk) 01:42, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I added Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Giulietta Guicciardi as a new article, still to be vetted. John E Klapproth ( talk) 02:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Misty Morn added this ref from Amazon.co.uk for the Liszt quote re: "flower between two chasms". I replaced it with this Google Books cite, because, for me at least, the relevant pages in the Amazon cite were blocked. Could someone else try out the link to see if it works for them? If not, could we replace the link with the Google Books link? I realize that snippets are less preferable, but if navigation is an issue at the Amazon link, a snippet is better than nothing.... Dohn joe ( talk) 21:07, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I see "Sonata quasi una fantasia" redirects here. But how about its fellow sonata quasi una fantasia? MistyMorn ( talk) 10:23, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Do we need this redirect: Adiago sostenuto? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 00:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I added a new section about the name. Feel free to add/subtract as you see fit. Dohn joe ( talk) 20:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
By now we have a slim and factual intro in chronological order. There were at least the years between 1801 and 1837 when no "Moonlight Sonata" existed. All facts during that time are wrong if "Moonlight Sonata" is used. One more reason to move it back, imo. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 18:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
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Steblin (2009) reports how Beethoven obviously dedicated this Sonata to Julie as a "revenge" for a gift he had received from her mother. This is in line with Beethoven's habit of never (publicly) dedicating any composition to anyone as a sign of personal affection or devotion, but rather as part of a business transaction (i.e., sold for money). See Thayer (in Elliot Forbes (1967, ed.): Thayer’s Life of Beethoven. 2nd ed. Princeton: University Press, p. 71): “Beethoven’s dedications of important works throughout his life were, as a rule, made to persons from whom he had received, or from whom he had hopes of receiving, pecuniary benefits.”