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The Definition - between 50 & 150/200 words long. This is the first text read by the majority of people reaching the article page. What should we be aiming to say? - what should we aim not to say? - from those two points we can work out what we are going to say. SFC9394 10:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
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Note: The discussion is archived; see the " /Archive,forDefinition taken between comments by SFC9394 10:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC) and ... Joshua Davis 04:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)", above for the complete text between those dates.
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Iteration 2 of the /Archive,forDefinition,2 taken up to 02:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC) is taken for the following reasons:
I feel that archiving active comments that were posted only a few hours ago to 'reset' the discussion to a starting point that several editors clearly disagree with is not appropriate and breaches the spirit of co-operation that was intended to lie behind all postings to this page. I am re-posting the archived comments again, below, so they don't get lost, but this I'm afraid reinforces my view that we now all wasting our time. What a shame. -- MichaelMaggs 12:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
START OF REPOSTING
END OF REPOSTING
Sorry: I neglected to mention that I had reverted, and so these sections were no longer removed, as I described them to be. –M T 16:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Here is a link to the definition article which User:Dbuckner re-wrote for us, at my request. Perhaps we might profit by it.
I for one, would like to include scope. For example, the Feynman Lectures on Physics assumed that the students were going to be physicists, that they would take a four-year course, then grad school to the Ph.D.. The Wikipedia article probably assumes an audience of
Adult learners tend to focus on what they need to know to get to some goal, such as solving an assignment.
Child learners tend to read for fun.
But for content, I hope that we include scale. The huge range of orders of magnitude in its fundamental constructs is distinctive to the science. Joshua Davis made this point already. And it's even the same equations, largely.
There is a very nice book, 95 pages, with just the equations of physics [1]. Yeah, I know, it's all in wikipedia already. -- Ancheta Wis 03:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok - here is what I propose. For anyone who wants to (be they a long time contributor to this page or someone who hasn't posted anything) I invite them to post a 200-400 word lead section. This is all that I ask for - no discussions - not critiquing what someone else has proposed - just the lead section you want. [...]
If you don't wish to submit a proposal then that is fine. A straw poll will be taken on what is received. The straw poll won't be a vote, and the outcome of it won't decide what the lead text is. What it will allow us all to do is to focus on the specifics. I posted my comments (~400 words) 25 hours ago - and this page has racked up ~4,000 words of response in that short time. Great if they were new words, but it is just chasing tail stuff once again. If folks won't focus voluntarily then I will attempt to do it by this method of asking for a lead text proposal from all parties. I suggest around a week or so for submissions to be accepted - that is flexible if editors have reasons for requiring a longer amount of time. [...]
I submit the above proposal to other editors - focus is required - the past 25 hours have confirmed in my mind that without it this is just going to become nothing but people going around in circles.
SFC9394
23:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Format:
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====~~~'s lead proposal, ~~~~~====
Your proposal here
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Ok, this is what I have quickly come up with... Krea 01:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is the process by which one aims to obtain knowledge of nature: it tries to discover and understand the basic constituents of nature and their interactions through a framework called the scientific method.
Throughout history, the difficulty of this task meant that, at any one particular time, physics often had to focus its enquiry on some specific aspect of nature on which reasonable progress could be made. Thus, physics is often regarded as a science separate from the other traditional sciences (such as chemistry, biology etc.), which only aims to talk about those aspects of nature not covered by these fields - even though it can be, and often is, regarded to be their progenitor. Therefore, it is often heard that physics is the study of matter and energy, forces and motion, or some combination of these concepts, even though it is widely regarded that the true domain of physics is, in fact, not bounded by such concepts.
Physics series: |
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Topics in Physics |
Major fields of Physics |
Physics Portal |
1. Definition -- See list of topics to the right, or see the categories broken anchor
Physics is a science.
2. Introduction
3. History & Foundations
4. Principles/Concepts
5. Current Topics/Current Research
6. Applications and Influence
7. References and Notes
8. External Links
Word counts:
Further development from a tutorial point of view might place the physics of the playground (i.e., classical mechanics) under section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.
Interrelationships of the topics of physics might go in section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.
Some of the contributions to complex systems by Murray Gell-Mann and others might be placed in section 5.
It would be a shame not to highlight David R. Ingham's venn diagram for physics.
Note added on 18 November: Now that a number of comments have been made (see below), I am amending my proposal to address certain criticisms that I consider worthy of a response. I will not, for now, directly comment on any comments. I have simply marked deleted text before text that replaces it, so that the changes are evident. (I have also removed the image: it was really just a placeholder, and the copyright for it needs further documentation.) – Noetica]
Physics is the science that aims to identify the basic constituents of the natural world, and the any laws according to which they combine and interact in complex systems. This is how physics is best understood broadly, philosophically, and in its origins. This definition of physics is useful for an understanding of its origins and its primary role, in a philosophical and historical context. The term is derived from Greek: τα φυσικά (ta phusiká), "[the study of] the things of nature".
In modern times, however, and for practical purposes, physics is usually understood in a more narrow sense. There are special sciences adapted to deal with certain kinds of complex systems: chemistry with reactions among elements and compounds, biology with living organisms, neuroscience with nervous systems, and so on. Each of these special sciences adds its own concepts, theories, and methods to the general stock that is available for all of science. This consideration calls for another definition, to supplement the first:
Physics is the rest of science after the special sciences are taken out: it is concerned more with basic constituents, and less with complex systems.
For most of the present article this narrow understanding of physics will be assumed. The article will deal with physics as it is conceived of, and practised, by contemporary physicists. Physics, narrowed in this way, has evolved these core features:
Even by the narrow definition, physics retains a central place among the sciences. It is only in physics that a theory of everything could even be contemplated. As W.V.O. Quine puts it: "If the physicist suspected there was any event that did not consist in a redistribution of the elementary states allowed for by his physical theory, he would seek a way of supplementing his theory. Full coverage in this sense is the very business of physics, and only of physics" (Theories and things, 1981, p. 99). Because the reach of physics remains so broad and universal, the work of physicists inspires progress in other sciences. Theoretical work by the Nobel-laureate physicist Erwin Schrödinger (in What is Life?, 1944) stimulated the discovery of DNA. And that discovery in molecular biology was achieved at the Cavendish: a physics laboratory.
Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time. Physicists formulate these laws as mathematical theories which attempt to model the behaviour of physical systems at some perceived fundamental level. The aim, however, is to go beyond describing physical phenomena, and to construct theories which can also predict how a physical system will behave. These predictions can then be tested experimentally to verify or falsify the theory.
Some theories are of such significance that they are referred to as the laws of physics. Typically, these are physical principles that are believed to be common to all physical systems, or at least are of very general applicability. Some principles, such as Newton's laws of motion, are still generally called "laws" even though they are now known not to be of such universal applicability as was once thought. The word 'law' is a misnomer since even a law of physics could, in principle, be disproved by experiment. Other theories are more limited: they describe the behaviour of specific physical systems only, or are applicable only under certain circumstances.
Since one of the major goals of physics is the formulation of theories of universal applicability, on a broad perspective physics can be viewed as the study of those univeral laws which define, at the most fundamental level possible, the behaviour of the physical universe.
Classical physics traditionally included the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat. The more recent fields of general and special relativity have also usually been placed within this category. Modern Physics is a term normally used to cover fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics and condensed matter physics. Although this distinction can be commonly found in older writings, it is of limited current significance as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.
Physics research is divided into two main branches: experimental physics and theoretical physics. Experimental physics focuses mainly on empirical research, and on the development and testing of theories against practical experiment. Theoretical physics is more closely related to mathematics, and involves generating and working through the mathematical implications of systems of physical theories, even where experimental evidence of their validity may not be immediately available.
Physics is the science concerned with describing nature at the fundamental level, the level of matter and energy. There appear to be stable and universal rules that determine the behaviour of these base constituents, and thereby the behaviour of all systems composed of them. Through observation and mathematical theorization, physicists develop models to characterize and predict this behaviour. Physics has presented many accurate and practical models and theories, but there are still unknown dephts to be explored.
With the advent of the scientific method, physics emerged from natural philosophy as one of the natural sciences. [Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla aliquam tempor velit. Nulla arcu turpis, faucibus eu, accumsan non, tempus et, felis. Morbi imperdiet vehicula quam. Sed dolor ligula, pharetra lacinia, lacinia in, vestibulum quis, justo. Quisque lectus nunc, ullamcorper a, venenatis ut, pellentesque ac, turpis.]
Physics is traditionally divided into two major categories. Classical physics includes the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat, as well as the more recent general and special relativity. Modern physics covers fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics, and condensed matter physics. This distinction is fading, as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.
200~ words. The first paragraph might stand on its own, but major historic points and a listing of major subfields (and hence coverage) are surely worth including. The thumb I'd like to use would be bubble chamber tracks. They're very precise, but also lively, almost artistic. The problem is finding a properly licensed image, since we can't claim fair use. Some points:
–M T 22:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is a broad field of inquiry into the natural world, that provides foundational elements for the other natural sciences. Although practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena, the principles of physics are applicable throughout natural science.
Then some example about how your circulatory system obeys hydrodynamics and how chemistry is complicated quantum mechanics. Then go go on to list the traditional areas of physics but then point out that there are people who do the physics of biology, geology, information systems, ... . The main points to get across are that physics is really broad(from sub-atomic to extra-galactic); it's principles apply throughout natural science; traditionally physicists study the things in the list I made above; there are physicists in other disciplnes as well(this is connected to the second point). I think this gives the field sufficient credit without getting into metaphysics.
Appended to the archive 14:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Almost a week has passed since the last submission, and 10 days since the first, so lets open the straw poll. Voice your support or opposition for each, and give terse reasons for your choice. A few sentences, at most, should be enough. Avoid arguments. Focus on the lead as a lead, and not as an argument for or against a given position. –M T 09:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
We have very few external responses, unless we get more, I don't think that this will be productive. Noetica and Krea, please consider revising. You wrote ~600 and ~800 words, averaging 100 and 130 per point. The others range from 34 (MichaelMaggs) to 48 (O. Prytz). It might've been better had none of us commented, save perhaps pre-poll corrective comments. But this is not ideal regardless, since we don't seem to have professional writers, well-known physicists, or a target audience sample reviewing and commenting. Ideas welcome. –M T 17:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Are we back to the discussing? If so, then I think Ancheta's suggestion is excellent. However, I think it'll fail at the very next correction, unfortunately: "Physics is the science of nature/Physics is the science of energy". M, you criticise both my and Noetica's definitions for being too heavy on explanations/justifications, right? Well, I don't think that is a problem at all since, as Ancheta has said, we are trying to define something that is not trivial. Hence, justifications are required I would say. Whilst I am on this point, can I say that to Ancheta that the danger of such definitions is precisely the point Noetica is warning us about: if you define physics as the study of energy, then it is in danger of being incorrect; whereas if it is defined as the study of nature, whilst it may be vague, it will never be incorrect. This leads me nicely to what Noetica, as do I, would now like to know: what is it exactly that bugs the "energists" about the broad definition? I am finding it really hard to see any non-trivial objection to it. For example, Michael, you say that my "first sentence...fails in my view as it covers a whole range of non-physics research such as a biological study into the mating habits of penguins." But I've explained time and again why such an argument is useless: you have used your definition of physics ("...covers a whole range of non-physics [Id est, non-physics-topics from your definition] research...") to argue against mine. This is no argument, and its use without further justification of its existence should be refrained from. So, objections please "energists". (It would help everyone if you yourselves attacked your own objections - something good physicists should always do - so as what gets posted is a good, well thought out, and non-trivial objection). Krea 14:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I take it that I seem to have offended you Michael. I'm sorry - that really wasn't intentional. I'm getting as equally tired of this as everyone I'm afraid: we can't seem to stop arguing in perpetualty. Let me first answer Michael's comments (you can skip this bit if you like - it's only here for completeness). This argument is easily rebuffed: Why should the definition explain how the subject is conducted? It is a definition and nothing more. It is allowed to be as esoteric as it wishes to be. This is a fault however, but it easily remedied: we then go on to say that practically, physics studies energy, etc. Please try to see this from the other perspective: a definition is not concerned with issues of practicality or explanation: it merely defines what the object is. This is more interesting. I'm sorry but I have been trying to define things in a "mathematical" sense (what other sense is there? All definitions are the same: a "mathematical" definition is no different from any other. There is nothing special about mathematical ones - they merely state what properties the object possesses. That is all). So have you been making "mathematical" definitions ("Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time."). So has everybody else here. What is wrong with that? Yes, they may be horribly wrong (I could define physics as the study of the colour blue - I don't think the world is ready for this one yet though...) I said before that all we can do is hope that these definitions are reasonable - and both the narrow and broad are. Anyway, this was just here so that I didn't offend Michael by ignoring him: I don't expect that anyone bothered to read this far though....hmmm, I could just say anything here couldn't I? No. I'll restrain myself...
Anyway, M, I take it you want this to be an easy definition for school kids. Well, I don't (technically, I do too, but I also want it to be something more). I want my peers to look at this page and say, "ah, actually, that's not a bad definition" because I can tell you this: all (ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration) definitions of scientific/mathematical objects are horrible. Somebody from the mathematics department not long ago said that he looked at the definition of a commutative ring (or maybe it was a Noetherian ring, or possible something else - I forget now) and saw three definitions - one of which was wrong!
I think we should just drop this argument and go back to the very basics: discuss what we want this section to be; because I think we, as a group, have different beliefs about what we want this section to be about - which is a core problem that may be causing our wires to cross. I think we all just jumped into it really, and then tried to clarify what we wanted the article to be about. I suggest we just discuss in a very careful, slow, articulate, and civilized manner what we want the section to be about without going into detail about how one would go about this. If this fails, then there is no hope at all. So, lets just all drop the attitude (myself included): SFC9394, may I suggest a "bitch-ometer"? If anyone of us is behaving like a twat, then rack up one point. Five points accumulated, say, from the opinion of any editor (What? We're all grown ups, right? We don't bear grudges...) and the user is blocked from commenting for a set period of time. Hopefully the totally subjective and premiership-referee style way of unsystematic decision making should keep us on our best of behaviour (right?) Anyway, that's just my opinion... Krea 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok. Fine. But could you answer what I would really like to know? Krea 19:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I really would like to hear some counterexamples. You may be right in questioning the intentions of the academic's definitions - but you may also be wrong. "The mating habits of penguins are in the domain of physics" is a vague assertion for me to justify: do you mean physics, as conducted today? Why bring up the concept of the burden of proof? But, seeing as you mention it, the burden of "proof" is for you to justify the energy definition (but I do not, unfairly, ask for you to show it is more suitable - merely that it is accepted by a significant quantity of respected academics). Yes, physicists study energy, but you must justify defining physics as the study of energy. Answers may be posted below, as you suggest. Krea 15:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Are we back to the insults (sorry: accusing me of not fully understanding the burden of proof rattles a nerve)? I'm sorry, but you've just pulled those criteria out of the air: definitions need to be no such thing, and "preference" implies subjectivity - what you think makes one definition preferable to another will not be the same as anybody else's. Go to the mathematics department and tell them that and you will leave with your pride shattered I'm afraid. By your criteria, you would probably define a vector as "an object with a magnitude and direction," and think that a better definition as "a map from the set of functions to the set of reals". A mathematician would disagree, however. I didn't say that you needed to justify that physics studied energy, what you must justify is using this as the criterion for its definition and then promoting it as the 'clear winner'. Perhaps when a dictionary is compiled by a physicist, I will give it more respect, but until then, only a fool (no insinuation meant) would use a dictionary to settle a scientific matter. No, they are not undisputed authorities on definition, and as for proof as such, I can look up more examples if you wish? Again, go to a science department and start making arguments citing dictionaries as sources and your pride will again be left quite bruised. True, I must justify my assertion. You must also do the same, and I request it. Krea 22:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, sorry, let me be more specific: what I disagree with is definitions being "easy to understand" - I argue that it needs to be no such thing; although, obviously, dictionaries, in order to fulfill their criteria of being useful to the public, need to satisfy this principle, but only because of this latter requirement, not because the definition itself requires so. I'm not sure about the "facilitative of forming the concept if none existed" bit: that seems to be fine - almost a definition in fact! You raise an interesting point about the dictionaries actually. Taking your argument in, I concede that you are indeed justified in using dictionaries to justify your definition; however, I would still be weary that it is only a lay definition, which is not totally appropriate. Now then, back to mine... I would argue that I need not show that the definition is correct; nor, even, that it does not contradict other accepted facts. Definitions, as I suspect you already know, cannot be right or wrong. For example, if I define mathematics as the study of systems where 1=2, it would be meaningless to argue that it is "wrong" (although it may contradict other people's definitions) because it is merely a definition (albeit only one that lunatics would work to!). All I need to show that it is accepted by a significant number of respected academics, right? Krea 12:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, what I meant was that the concept-forming thing was probably a definition of the word definition! But, that's not important. You could be right that the dictionary definition is not lay, since I have not asked for their sources, but I doubt it (based on the definitions of physics that I have seen). You say that the definition of physics does not change when entering scientific discourse, and to this I also disagree: how can you be so sure? This bit of our discussion should probably stop here, however, and merely join with our discussion below.
I find the energy definition inappropriate because it has unattractive features: when trying to define a subject for which the fundamental essence of the objects that it studies is not known, attempting to define the subject with these qualities is inadvisable. This is because the meaning of the word will change as our knowledge changes. The physicists of the past, under the energy definition, where not of the same type as the physicists of today because their physics and modern physics, respectively, where, in essence, different things (which doesn't mean that they studied different things, but that the essence of what they did was different). This is unattractive to most physicists who regard that what they do now, and what Kepler, Newton, Galileo etc. did in the past were of the same type: that what they were doing in essence was the same thing.
Yes, definitions can be wrong if "wrongness" is defined as being applied to a definition that contradicts a more widely accepted one; but this is a requirement that does not exist in the mathematical world. Don't forget that it is not the public who should dictate what goes in this article, but the relative minority of the physicists. It's unfortunate in some ways that the public have a definition that is different to the professional's, but just because they are the majority should not mean that the "minority definition" (i.e., that of the professionals) should be excluded. Therefore, it is unreasonable to ask of what the public think physics is. What should be considered is what the professionals regard as being a definition; and it is to this subset of the population that we must exclude minority definitions. If this is what you meant by saying that my definitions should be "correct", then I agree (but be careful using this adjective in academic circles without defining it beforehand; since, as I have said, its use is non-existent). Well, I think we have sorted out what needs to be done, right? So, discussion here should stop, only to be continued below as appropriate; although, I would like to hear your counter-reply to my second paragraph (possibly under the justification of your argument, below?). Krea 13:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Editors who have contributed to this page have 100 words to argue their position. Editors who have not have 20. Editors may combine their arguments. Arguments may (and should) be revised freely in response to each other. In one week (or less, if we're ready), we'll hold a public vote on the positions, and the article will be written from that perspective. –M T 07:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The following arguments are in the development stage. Each position and argument is highlighted. The discussion that follows is not intended to be part of the argument, and may be ignored. Discussions are directed at each contributor to help them refine their argument, and not at potential readers. –M T 18:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is a natural science of matter and its interactions, and of systems best explained in such fundamental terms. Physics is not so broad, in any sense, that it includes penguin mating habits or consciousness. It might have the capacity to explain these phenomenon, but it would be incorrect to call the work that deals with these "physics". Physics is not the foundation of the other sciences - they rely on their own principles and methods. However, physics is broadly applicable, and the systems that other sciences study are fundamentally composed of what physics studies.
1. Definition
Physics is a broad field of inquiry into the natural world, that provides a foundation for the other natural sciences. Although practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena, the principles of physics are applicable throughout natural science; they are interconnected in a coherent set. The development of this set of principles has been on-going at least 2500 years. The principles are mathematical in nature, which mirror or model their subjects. They can serve as a basis for the other sciences in a self-correcting process, collaboratively developed in the last 400 years, called scientific method.
99 words. This is meant as a follow-on version of a definition per the discussion between M and Joshua Davis, as I wish to preserve M's version. Amendments welcome, -- Ancheta Wis 00:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Krea's Definition
My argument for the "general" definition is this:
Quoted by Young & Freedman [1] (a popular undergraduate text), argued for by Quine [2], Feynman [3], and even in Physics for Dummies [4]. The situation is not as simple as "physics doesn't study penguins, ergo physics doesn't study nature". True, physicists do not currently study such complex systems, but what physics essentially is is independent of time: many physicists believe that the understanding of complex systems is just a reflection of todays lack of knowledge. In principle, there is no system beyond physics, which is why they say physics is merely the study of the natural world. Furthermore, the strength of [1] compels inclusion.
Krea 17:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I ask editors which parts of this definition I need to justify. Krea 15:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. As it turns out, I'll try to answer your questions/points in reverse. Hmmm, how would I define a concept of physics? First thing to note would be that the question needs elaboration: I suspect what is meant is current concepts of physics (rather than true concepts, which are not known). The question then just reduces to listing fundamental (as we see them now) principles. This does not merely include matter and energy: I would put in gauge invariance (their permeating influence seems significant), dimensions (i.e., the existence of a space in which these concepts live - but I need to give this more thought actually) and so on (i.e. I can't be bothered to think of any more - I'm tired).
Yes, the study of forces etc. is sufficient to conduct physics, but it is not a necessary condition (as a little side note: did anyone notice that my list of principles actually describes the evolution of the student to use "better" principles in order to study dynamics! Ahh, the simple pleasures of life...). The fact that they are not necessary means that any definition of physics based on these concepts excludes the possibility of new concepts being classified as being physics too. This is a major flaw for me.
For the sake of argument, I ask: so what if physics is equal to science? This is just an issue of semantics isn't it?
Justification? Well, all that I have to hand right now is Feynman, and Young & Freedman. Feynman rants in his usual "why doesn't he just answer my damn question?" way and it's hard to find a clear-cut definition (chapter 2). It's interesting to note, however, that he always talks of general things, and nothing specific (such as forces, energy, etc. Two bits are interesting, however:
Now, while his list of "classes" don't include penguins or the like, he does stress "complete nature", and he continuously make references to the whole of nature. Thus, although he never states a definition, the context of the chapter suggests (and I admit, it is only my suggestion) this: I conject that it is not unreasonable to suggest that his definition of physics would be the study of nature (since he states that the basic problem of physics is to find the laws that govern nature). This no definitive justification of my assertion however (although I would still say it is not an unreasonable indication).
Young & Freedman's University Physics with Modern Physics, 11th (International) edition (a popular undergraduate text on the general principles of physics) states on page 2, under section 1.1 titled The Nature of Physics:
All other texts that I have a rather more specific in their analysis, however, and I can find no other definition of physics. I could go to the department library and see if they have anything else, but I doubt I'll find time for that until at least the new year. Finally, sorry for the length! (But to be fair, the justifications bit took up a lot of space). Krea 00:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I would argue that what I say, and what Young & Freedman say is practically identical: "...[physics] is merely the study of nature" and "Physicists observe the phenomena of nature and try to find patterns and principles that relate these phenomena" respectively. I don't understand how you say that this quote indicates that physics only accounts for all of nature, and does not explicitly state that physics understands all of it. What is the difference between physically accounting for something, and understanding it? You gave Macbeth (I think) as an example before, but that was for something a little different. But, more importantly, this distinction seems particular to you, M. I do not think that other people would make this distinction - just as Young & Freedman do not. I am happy to change the word "study" in my definition to "observation" in which case I am referencing this text, and you will effectively be arguing against the position taken
by two well respected physicists.
Krea
11:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. The distinction between accounting for, and understanding complex systems is dependent upon knowledge. We have so little knowledge of the rules right now that it is not possible to understand these complex systems in terms of what we know well, as we both know. However, I assume that when (or if) we acquire enough knowledge of nature's rules about the fundamental stuff, a physicist would be interested in understanding these complex systems in the same way that we now understand atomic spectra (at least for hydrogenic systems). Thus, this accounting-for/understanding distinction is a moving boundary: what was complex in the past is not so today, and I conject the same for the future (stress on the "conject" part). But, I don't see how you inferred that Young & Freedman were talking about accounting for nature, rather than understanding it? To me, I think they saw no distinction since they believed that the distinction is merely dependent on time - and their definition was independent of time (i.e. applicable at any point in history: the definition was appropriate in C18th, is appropriate now, and, they believe, will be appropriate in the future). Krea 13:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
These arguments are not so important anymore because your position is now untenable isn't it? What I say in my definition, and what Young and Freedman say, amongst others, is almost identical. You could even forget that it was my suggestion and leave it as a case of paraphrasing a respected source. We can drop all the arguments that we have been making to try to convince each other: Y & F have settled the argument. Unless you want to argue against two respected professionals, the broad definition should be included. In fact, I would even suggest there is no need for the vote since there is nothing to argue about anymore. I counted smack-on 100 words by the way. The rest of what you highlighted was not an argument, but the context (and you missed the references too). Krea 22:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
1. Rutherford's Definition
"All science is either physics or stamp collecting" -- Ernest Rutherford [D]
[D] Ernest Rutherford in J. B. Birks Rutherford at Manchester (1962)
8 words.
84 word paraphrase: Science is not merely a collection of facts, but more importantly, a consistent, coherent structure of interconnected results which follow scientific method.
At the time Rutherford spoke, only physics could claim this position. Anything else became a series of ad-hoc positions (stamp collecting: matter, energy, atoms, penguins). Biology had not yet discovered the structure of DNA; the atoms of chemistry had not yet been explained by quantum mechanics. Progress has come by using the constructs of physics.
Confer with Joshua Davis' statement included in #Position B.
1. Einstein's Definition
"Physics constitutes a logical system of thought which is in a state of evolution, and whose basis cannot be obtained through distillation by any inductive method from the experiences lived through, but which can only be attained by free invention." [E]
39 words - [E] Albert Einstein (1936), Physics and Reality, summarized in his Essays in Physics (1950) New York, Philosophical Library p. 51
Confer with Noetica's and Krea's statements above. I do not have a copy of Einstein's Ideas and Opinions which actually dovetail with Position B above. -- Ancheta Wis 01:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
"[The] general laws on which the structure of theoretical physics is based claim to be valid for any natural phenomenon whatsover. With them, it ought to be possible to arrive at the description, that is to say, the theory, of every natural process, including life, by means of pure deduction ... " [E2]
48 words. [E2] Albert Einstein (1918, Max Planck's 60th birthday) "Principles of Research" in Ideas and Opinions, ISBN 0-517-55601-4 (1954) p.226. -- Ancheta Wis 08:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as someone with two bachelors, 2 masters and a PhD in physics, this article is kind of a mess. I could step in to try to weigh in, but who wants to get in the middle of a big fight?-- ReasonIsBest 18:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't follow anymore. What are the yellow boxes? New proposals to rewrite the article or just pieces/quotes to support the original proposals? Nick Mks 10:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose that we archive the lead proposals, some comments on definition, the straw poll, the vote regarding definition (including the arguments), and this comment on that vote. I won't be posting anything there, and would rather not wait for it to be apparent through non-posting that others have similarly abandonded discussion there. –M T 19:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Below you will find one or more positions/arguments/statements (herein "positions"). If you agree with a position, add the following to the bottom of its list:
You may not add objections, or anything else, just a "support. [...]". If you want to comment, create a new heading or add to an existing other one. You may cast a vote for only one position. You may change your vote as many times as you'd like by deleting it completely from under one position, and adding a new vote under another.
The results of this vote will direct us in the writing of the article. If we discover that a position is widely supported or rejected, we will write to support or reject it in the article.
The rest of this section probably won't interest you if you are new to this and would like to get on with voting. Skip down to the positions.
If you do not approve of any of the listed positions, you may add another one in this form:
If someone casts (or moves) a vote for any position, or adds a position after you've added your position, it may no longer be altered. Make sure your position is polished before posting it. If a position ever loses all votes, it will be deleted. You can only write a single position once; you may not re-instate yours (or anyone else's), or write a new one, even if yours was thus deleted.
You may not modify text that is not your own. You may not post above other people. You may not post in this pre-position section lest we degrade into unstructured argument. You may not create a new subsection under this heading, or add a divider - and then proceed as you please.
If you (that is, a person who has been engaged in the discussion) violate any of these rules, even as far as not including the ---- separator at the top of your position, your edit will be reverted and treated as if it never ocurred. (As opposed to the reverter modifying your position in some way, or breaking the rules by suggesting the correction.) A reason will be given, and you may try again if appropriate. "Support" votes cannot be removed in this manner, but an offending vote's comment section can have its end clipped off if it goes over 50 words (leaving a "… [comment has been trimmed]"), or it can be collapsed into a single listitem/paragraph if it takes up several lines.
Some things considered (extremely) bad form, but not prohibited:
Try to act in good faith, and take as a (non-mandatory) example the tone/style/etc. of previous positions. –M T 18:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics, biology, and psychology are different sciences. When one studies the universal fundamentals (that is, matter and energy), they are doing physics. When one studies living organisms, biology. Minds and behaviour, psychology. One important aspect of physics is its usefulness in many other sciences. Knowing physics will drastically help a chemist do chemistry. A different approach is to define physics from use: if you are using the principles of physics, you are "doing" physics. Thus, a schoolchild practicing/learning physics would be doing physics, as would a car designer, a sniper/artilleryman, and also a chemist? person who studies chemical reactions/molecules. But this is wrong - here, the word "doing" actually means "using". These people use physics. They don't "do" physics. They don't conduct a scientific study of... of what? Of the fundamental: matter and energy. That's what physics studies. The opposition argues that physics studies all of nature - but this means that any study is physics. This would essentially make "physics" synonymous with "science", and render categories like "natural sciences" nonsensical. This position too is incorrect. Physics isn't any study of nature - it's the study of the fundamental constituents, which we recognize to be matter and energy.
–M
T
Physics is a general set of principles thought to be obeyed by all known systems in nature. Practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena which are most amenable to direct study using the aforementioned concepts. Most notably this involves fundamental properties of matter, energy, space, and time (which are now all known to be intricately related). As human knowledge has advanced, the set of physical principles and the phenomena fruitfully studied with them have both increased, leading to active interdisciplinary fields such as biophysics and geophysics. Nonetheless direct application of the laws of physics is (currently) prohibitively difficult in many cases. Thus fields like biology, chemistry and others have their own methods and concepts which cannot be directly derived from the presumed underlying physical laws. So physics is not any study of nature; that is natural science, different fields of which have developed their own tools and language. But, importantly, should any field of science discover some phenomena which violates basic laws of physics, the laws would have to be modified in order to retain their general, encompassing stature. Finally, this article is for the general reader, not an expert, and should be written so. Joshua Davis 04:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I know that you guys are trying to wrap the discussion up, but I feel that this really needs to be said. Your original article on Physics was very Asiancentric, augmenting all the contributions of these ancient civilizations in Asia that hardly made any developments relating to modern Physics as we now understand it as a subject. Just about every trustworthy source I have read places a little bit of emphasis on the Greeks, but then places most of its emphasis on what Europeans did after the Renaissance (who, like it or not, were the first people to really do anything with the subject), while zero emphasis is placed on Asia. Unfortunately, when I moved over to this discussion and then clicked on the "article" link above it appears that the original article was edited for the better, but then under the section that discusses the history of Physics, there is a paragraph that is once again Asiancentric. Can anyone provide sources (other than from Western Civilization bashing sites), that prove that the Indians and Muslims were the ones that developed the roots of modern Physics? It wasn't until I came to Wikipedia that I read such nonsense. But then again, Wikipedia likes to make sure every group is equally represented instead of presenting history as it really is. Cftiger 10:51 26 November 2006
It seems that some new people are coming in(or maybe returning after a long hiatus), but they may be discouraged from participating due to the ridiculous length of the talk page. I propose archiving everything up to, but not including, "Vote regarding definition of physics". That should leave enough of the background of the discussion around but should a lot of repetition. Also, to prevent comments from continuing to pile up in an unmanageable I way, I again implore people to please be concise in our discussions. Joshua Davis 21:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
SFC9394- When we do the next stage, you might consider using the main Physics/WIP project page for the texts to be voted on, leaving this talk page for discussion. Experience has shown that trying to have both texts and discussion on the same page doesn't work very easily. -- MichaelMaggs 16:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have been away from the table for a bit – for reasons of real life, but also in the belief that the premise set out was fairly simple.
The process has, to be frank, broken down. Progress simply isn’t happening.
This can’t continue any longer – so there are 4 options that I offer to other editors:
1. Three final versions are approved – only three can come out of this process, and a vote of the body of people here may be required if necessary to produce these three. With these three final versions a wikipedia editorial community vote is taken – by notification of the vote on the community portal. (the rules I propose for this option are here).
2. A placeholder is put in the WIP page for this section, “Physics is….”, and we move on to productive improvement rather than the pointless back and forthing that has gone on for the last month.
3. The WIP page is opened for editing to all and discussions continue on the lead section.
4. This WIP project is wound up.
All that I require is whether you support 1, 2, 3 or 4.
This process has shown the inherent difficulties in how wikipedia functions. In summary, consensus can’t be reached here because we are facing a problem that has multiple answers, and one which everyone has their own biased views on (and I use the term biased in the nicest possible fashion – an experimentalist is going to view the subject very differently from a theorists, both of whom are going to view it differently from a philosopher). Thus it is either time to start asking for votes on the issue (create something that the “mean” of the populous are happy with), ignore the problem for a while, or close the project. 1, 2, 3 or 4. SFC9394 20:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
4 options that I offer to other editors:
1. Three final versions are approved – only three can come out of this process, and a vote of the body of people here may be required if necessary to produce these three. With these three final versions a wikipedia editorial community vote is taken – by notification of the vote on the community portal. (the rules I propose for this option are here).
2. A placeholder is put in the WIP page for this section, “Physics is….”, and we move on to productive improvement rather than the pointless back and forthing that has gone on for the last month.
3. The WIP page is opened for editing to all and discussions continue on the lead section.
4. This WIP project is wound up.
All that I require is whether you support 1, 2, 3 or 4.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The Definition - between 50 & 150/200 words long. This is the first text read by the majority of people reaching the article page. What should we be aiming to say? - what should we aim not to say? - from those two points we can work out what we are going to say. SFC9394 10:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
...
Note: The discussion is archived; see the " /Archive,forDefinition taken between comments by SFC9394 10:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC) and ... Joshua Davis 04:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)", above for the complete text between those dates.
...
Iteration 2 of the /Archive,forDefinition,2 taken up to 02:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC) is taken for the following reasons:
I feel that archiving active comments that were posted only a few hours ago to 'reset' the discussion to a starting point that several editors clearly disagree with is not appropriate and breaches the spirit of co-operation that was intended to lie behind all postings to this page. I am re-posting the archived comments again, below, so they don't get lost, but this I'm afraid reinforces my view that we now all wasting our time. What a shame. -- MichaelMaggs 12:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
START OF REPOSTING
END OF REPOSTING
Sorry: I neglected to mention that I had reverted, and so these sections were no longer removed, as I described them to be. –M T 16:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Here is a link to the definition article which User:Dbuckner re-wrote for us, at my request. Perhaps we might profit by it.
I for one, would like to include scope. For example, the Feynman Lectures on Physics assumed that the students were going to be physicists, that they would take a four-year course, then grad school to the Ph.D.. The Wikipedia article probably assumes an audience of
Adult learners tend to focus on what they need to know to get to some goal, such as solving an assignment.
Child learners tend to read for fun.
But for content, I hope that we include scale. The huge range of orders of magnitude in its fundamental constructs is distinctive to the science. Joshua Davis made this point already. And it's even the same equations, largely.
There is a very nice book, 95 pages, with just the equations of physics [1]. Yeah, I know, it's all in wikipedia already. -- Ancheta Wis 03:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok - here is what I propose. For anyone who wants to (be they a long time contributor to this page or someone who hasn't posted anything) I invite them to post a 200-400 word lead section. This is all that I ask for - no discussions - not critiquing what someone else has proposed - just the lead section you want. [...]
If you don't wish to submit a proposal then that is fine. A straw poll will be taken on what is received. The straw poll won't be a vote, and the outcome of it won't decide what the lead text is. What it will allow us all to do is to focus on the specifics. I posted my comments (~400 words) 25 hours ago - and this page has racked up ~4,000 words of response in that short time. Great if they were new words, but it is just chasing tail stuff once again. If folks won't focus voluntarily then I will attempt to do it by this method of asking for a lead text proposal from all parties. I suggest around a week or so for submissions to be accepted - that is flexible if editors have reasons for requiring a longer amount of time. [...]
I submit the above proposal to other editors - focus is required - the past 25 hours have confirmed in my mind that without it this is just going to become nothing but people going around in circles.
SFC9394
23:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Format:
----
====~~~'s lead proposal, ~~~~~====
Your proposal here
----
Ok, this is what I have quickly come up with... Krea 01:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is the process by which one aims to obtain knowledge of nature: it tries to discover and understand the basic constituents of nature and their interactions through a framework called the scientific method.
Throughout history, the difficulty of this task meant that, at any one particular time, physics often had to focus its enquiry on some specific aspect of nature on which reasonable progress could be made. Thus, physics is often regarded as a science separate from the other traditional sciences (such as chemistry, biology etc.), which only aims to talk about those aspects of nature not covered by these fields - even though it can be, and often is, regarded to be their progenitor. Therefore, it is often heard that physics is the study of matter and energy, forces and motion, or some combination of these concepts, even though it is widely regarded that the true domain of physics is, in fact, not bounded by such concepts.
Physics series: |
---|
Topics in Physics |
Major fields of Physics |
Physics Portal |
1. Definition -- See list of topics to the right, or see the categories broken anchor
Physics is a science.
2. Introduction
3. History & Foundations
4. Principles/Concepts
5. Current Topics/Current Research
6. Applications and Influence
7. References and Notes
8. External Links
Word counts:
Further development from a tutorial point of view might place the physics of the playground (i.e., classical mechanics) under section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.
Interrelationships of the topics of physics might go in section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.
Some of the contributions to complex systems by Murray Gell-Mann and others might be placed in section 5.
It would be a shame not to highlight David R. Ingham's venn diagram for physics.
Note added on 18 November: Now that a number of comments have been made (see below), I am amending my proposal to address certain criticisms that I consider worthy of a response. I will not, for now, directly comment on any comments. I have simply marked deleted text before text that replaces it, so that the changes are evident. (I have also removed the image: it was really just a placeholder, and the copyright for it needs further documentation.) – Noetica]
Physics is the science that aims to identify the basic constituents of the natural world, and the any laws according to which they combine and interact in complex systems. This is how physics is best understood broadly, philosophically, and in its origins. This definition of physics is useful for an understanding of its origins and its primary role, in a philosophical and historical context. The term is derived from Greek: τα φυσικά (ta phusiká), "[the study of] the things of nature".
In modern times, however, and for practical purposes, physics is usually understood in a more narrow sense. There are special sciences adapted to deal with certain kinds of complex systems: chemistry with reactions among elements and compounds, biology with living organisms, neuroscience with nervous systems, and so on. Each of these special sciences adds its own concepts, theories, and methods to the general stock that is available for all of science. This consideration calls for another definition, to supplement the first:
Physics is the rest of science after the special sciences are taken out: it is concerned more with basic constituents, and less with complex systems.
For most of the present article this narrow understanding of physics will be assumed. The article will deal with physics as it is conceived of, and practised, by contemporary physicists. Physics, narrowed in this way, has evolved these core features:
Even by the narrow definition, physics retains a central place among the sciences. It is only in physics that a theory of everything could even be contemplated. As W.V.O. Quine puts it: "If the physicist suspected there was any event that did not consist in a redistribution of the elementary states allowed for by his physical theory, he would seek a way of supplementing his theory. Full coverage in this sense is the very business of physics, and only of physics" (Theories and things, 1981, p. 99). Because the reach of physics remains so broad and universal, the work of physicists inspires progress in other sciences. Theoretical work by the Nobel-laureate physicist Erwin Schrödinger (in What is Life?, 1944) stimulated the discovery of DNA. And that discovery in molecular biology was achieved at the Cavendish: a physics laboratory.
Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time. Physicists formulate these laws as mathematical theories which attempt to model the behaviour of physical systems at some perceived fundamental level. The aim, however, is to go beyond describing physical phenomena, and to construct theories which can also predict how a physical system will behave. These predictions can then be tested experimentally to verify or falsify the theory.
Some theories are of such significance that they are referred to as the laws of physics. Typically, these are physical principles that are believed to be common to all physical systems, or at least are of very general applicability. Some principles, such as Newton's laws of motion, are still generally called "laws" even though they are now known not to be of such universal applicability as was once thought. The word 'law' is a misnomer since even a law of physics could, in principle, be disproved by experiment. Other theories are more limited: they describe the behaviour of specific physical systems only, or are applicable only under certain circumstances.
Since one of the major goals of physics is the formulation of theories of universal applicability, on a broad perspective physics can be viewed as the study of those univeral laws which define, at the most fundamental level possible, the behaviour of the physical universe.
Classical physics traditionally included the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat. The more recent fields of general and special relativity have also usually been placed within this category. Modern Physics is a term normally used to cover fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics and condensed matter physics. Although this distinction can be commonly found in older writings, it is of limited current significance as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.
Physics research is divided into two main branches: experimental physics and theoretical physics. Experimental physics focuses mainly on empirical research, and on the development and testing of theories against practical experiment. Theoretical physics is more closely related to mathematics, and involves generating and working through the mathematical implications of systems of physical theories, even where experimental evidence of their validity may not be immediately available.
Physics is the science concerned with describing nature at the fundamental level, the level of matter and energy. There appear to be stable and universal rules that determine the behaviour of these base constituents, and thereby the behaviour of all systems composed of them. Through observation and mathematical theorization, physicists develop models to characterize and predict this behaviour. Physics has presented many accurate and practical models and theories, but there are still unknown dephts to be explored.
With the advent of the scientific method, physics emerged from natural philosophy as one of the natural sciences. [Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla aliquam tempor velit. Nulla arcu turpis, faucibus eu, accumsan non, tempus et, felis. Morbi imperdiet vehicula quam. Sed dolor ligula, pharetra lacinia, lacinia in, vestibulum quis, justo. Quisque lectus nunc, ullamcorper a, venenatis ut, pellentesque ac, turpis.]
Physics is traditionally divided into two major categories. Classical physics includes the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat, as well as the more recent general and special relativity. Modern physics covers fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics, and condensed matter physics. This distinction is fading, as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.
200~ words. The first paragraph might stand on its own, but major historic points and a listing of major subfields (and hence coverage) are surely worth including. The thumb I'd like to use would be bubble chamber tracks. They're very precise, but also lively, almost artistic. The problem is finding a properly licensed image, since we can't claim fair use. Some points:
–M T 22:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is a broad field of inquiry into the natural world, that provides foundational elements for the other natural sciences. Although practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena, the principles of physics are applicable throughout natural science.
Then some example about how your circulatory system obeys hydrodynamics and how chemistry is complicated quantum mechanics. Then go go on to list the traditional areas of physics but then point out that there are people who do the physics of biology, geology, information systems, ... . The main points to get across are that physics is really broad(from sub-atomic to extra-galactic); it's principles apply throughout natural science; traditionally physicists study the things in the list I made above; there are physicists in other disciplnes as well(this is connected to the second point). I think this gives the field sufficient credit without getting into metaphysics.
Appended to the archive 14:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Almost a week has passed since the last submission, and 10 days since the first, so lets open the straw poll. Voice your support or opposition for each, and give terse reasons for your choice. A few sentences, at most, should be enough. Avoid arguments. Focus on the lead as a lead, and not as an argument for or against a given position. –M T 09:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
We have very few external responses, unless we get more, I don't think that this will be productive. Noetica and Krea, please consider revising. You wrote ~600 and ~800 words, averaging 100 and 130 per point. The others range from 34 (MichaelMaggs) to 48 (O. Prytz). It might've been better had none of us commented, save perhaps pre-poll corrective comments. But this is not ideal regardless, since we don't seem to have professional writers, well-known physicists, or a target audience sample reviewing and commenting. Ideas welcome. –M T 17:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Are we back to the discussing? If so, then I think Ancheta's suggestion is excellent. However, I think it'll fail at the very next correction, unfortunately: "Physics is the science of nature/Physics is the science of energy". M, you criticise both my and Noetica's definitions for being too heavy on explanations/justifications, right? Well, I don't think that is a problem at all since, as Ancheta has said, we are trying to define something that is not trivial. Hence, justifications are required I would say. Whilst I am on this point, can I say that to Ancheta that the danger of such definitions is precisely the point Noetica is warning us about: if you define physics as the study of energy, then it is in danger of being incorrect; whereas if it is defined as the study of nature, whilst it may be vague, it will never be incorrect. This leads me nicely to what Noetica, as do I, would now like to know: what is it exactly that bugs the "energists" about the broad definition? I am finding it really hard to see any non-trivial objection to it. For example, Michael, you say that my "first sentence...fails in my view as it covers a whole range of non-physics research such as a biological study into the mating habits of penguins." But I've explained time and again why such an argument is useless: you have used your definition of physics ("...covers a whole range of non-physics [Id est, non-physics-topics from your definition] research...") to argue against mine. This is no argument, and its use without further justification of its existence should be refrained from. So, objections please "energists". (It would help everyone if you yourselves attacked your own objections - something good physicists should always do - so as what gets posted is a good, well thought out, and non-trivial objection). Krea 14:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I take it that I seem to have offended you Michael. I'm sorry - that really wasn't intentional. I'm getting as equally tired of this as everyone I'm afraid: we can't seem to stop arguing in perpetualty. Let me first answer Michael's comments (you can skip this bit if you like - it's only here for completeness). This argument is easily rebuffed: Why should the definition explain how the subject is conducted? It is a definition and nothing more. It is allowed to be as esoteric as it wishes to be. This is a fault however, but it easily remedied: we then go on to say that practically, physics studies energy, etc. Please try to see this from the other perspective: a definition is not concerned with issues of practicality or explanation: it merely defines what the object is. This is more interesting. I'm sorry but I have been trying to define things in a "mathematical" sense (what other sense is there? All definitions are the same: a "mathematical" definition is no different from any other. There is nothing special about mathematical ones - they merely state what properties the object possesses. That is all). So have you been making "mathematical" definitions ("Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time."). So has everybody else here. What is wrong with that? Yes, they may be horribly wrong (I could define physics as the study of the colour blue - I don't think the world is ready for this one yet though...) I said before that all we can do is hope that these definitions are reasonable - and both the narrow and broad are. Anyway, this was just here so that I didn't offend Michael by ignoring him: I don't expect that anyone bothered to read this far though....hmmm, I could just say anything here couldn't I? No. I'll restrain myself...
Anyway, M, I take it you want this to be an easy definition for school kids. Well, I don't (technically, I do too, but I also want it to be something more). I want my peers to look at this page and say, "ah, actually, that's not a bad definition" because I can tell you this: all (ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration) definitions of scientific/mathematical objects are horrible. Somebody from the mathematics department not long ago said that he looked at the definition of a commutative ring (or maybe it was a Noetherian ring, or possible something else - I forget now) and saw three definitions - one of which was wrong!
I think we should just drop this argument and go back to the very basics: discuss what we want this section to be; because I think we, as a group, have different beliefs about what we want this section to be about - which is a core problem that may be causing our wires to cross. I think we all just jumped into it really, and then tried to clarify what we wanted the article to be about. I suggest we just discuss in a very careful, slow, articulate, and civilized manner what we want the section to be about without going into detail about how one would go about this. If this fails, then there is no hope at all. So, lets just all drop the attitude (myself included): SFC9394, may I suggest a "bitch-ometer"? If anyone of us is behaving like a twat, then rack up one point. Five points accumulated, say, from the opinion of any editor (What? We're all grown ups, right? We don't bear grudges...) and the user is blocked from commenting for a set period of time. Hopefully the totally subjective and premiership-referee style way of unsystematic decision making should keep us on our best of behaviour (right?) Anyway, that's just my opinion... Krea 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok. Fine. But could you answer what I would really like to know? Krea 19:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I really would like to hear some counterexamples. You may be right in questioning the intentions of the academic's definitions - but you may also be wrong. "The mating habits of penguins are in the domain of physics" is a vague assertion for me to justify: do you mean physics, as conducted today? Why bring up the concept of the burden of proof? But, seeing as you mention it, the burden of "proof" is for you to justify the energy definition (but I do not, unfairly, ask for you to show it is more suitable - merely that it is accepted by a significant quantity of respected academics). Yes, physicists study energy, but you must justify defining physics as the study of energy. Answers may be posted below, as you suggest. Krea 15:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Are we back to the insults (sorry: accusing me of not fully understanding the burden of proof rattles a nerve)? I'm sorry, but you've just pulled those criteria out of the air: definitions need to be no such thing, and "preference" implies subjectivity - what you think makes one definition preferable to another will not be the same as anybody else's. Go to the mathematics department and tell them that and you will leave with your pride shattered I'm afraid. By your criteria, you would probably define a vector as "an object with a magnitude and direction," and think that a better definition as "a map from the set of functions to the set of reals". A mathematician would disagree, however. I didn't say that you needed to justify that physics studied energy, what you must justify is using this as the criterion for its definition and then promoting it as the 'clear winner'. Perhaps when a dictionary is compiled by a physicist, I will give it more respect, but until then, only a fool (no insinuation meant) would use a dictionary to settle a scientific matter. No, they are not undisputed authorities on definition, and as for proof as such, I can look up more examples if you wish? Again, go to a science department and start making arguments citing dictionaries as sources and your pride will again be left quite bruised. True, I must justify my assertion. You must also do the same, and I request it. Krea 22:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, sorry, let me be more specific: what I disagree with is definitions being "easy to understand" - I argue that it needs to be no such thing; although, obviously, dictionaries, in order to fulfill their criteria of being useful to the public, need to satisfy this principle, but only because of this latter requirement, not because the definition itself requires so. I'm not sure about the "facilitative of forming the concept if none existed" bit: that seems to be fine - almost a definition in fact! You raise an interesting point about the dictionaries actually. Taking your argument in, I concede that you are indeed justified in using dictionaries to justify your definition; however, I would still be weary that it is only a lay definition, which is not totally appropriate. Now then, back to mine... I would argue that I need not show that the definition is correct; nor, even, that it does not contradict other accepted facts. Definitions, as I suspect you already know, cannot be right or wrong. For example, if I define mathematics as the study of systems where 1=2, it would be meaningless to argue that it is "wrong" (although it may contradict other people's definitions) because it is merely a definition (albeit only one that lunatics would work to!). All I need to show that it is accepted by a significant number of respected academics, right? Krea 12:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, what I meant was that the concept-forming thing was probably a definition of the word definition! But, that's not important. You could be right that the dictionary definition is not lay, since I have not asked for their sources, but I doubt it (based on the definitions of physics that I have seen). You say that the definition of physics does not change when entering scientific discourse, and to this I also disagree: how can you be so sure? This bit of our discussion should probably stop here, however, and merely join with our discussion below.
I find the energy definition inappropriate because it has unattractive features: when trying to define a subject for which the fundamental essence of the objects that it studies is not known, attempting to define the subject with these qualities is inadvisable. This is because the meaning of the word will change as our knowledge changes. The physicists of the past, under the energy definition, where not of the same type as the physicists of today because their physics and modern physics, respectively, where, in essence, different things (which doesn't mean that they studied different things, but that the essence of what they did was different). This is unattractive to most physicists who regard that what they do now, and what Kepler, Newton, Galileo etc. did in the past were of the same type: that what they were doing in essence was the same thing.
Yes, definitions can be wrong if "wrongness" is defined as being applied to a definition that contradicts a more widely accepted one; but this is a requirement that does not exist in the mathematical world. Don't forget that it is not the public who should dictate what goes in this article, but the relative minority of the physicists. It's unfortunate in some ways that the public have a definition that is different to the professional's, but just because they are the majority should not mean that the "minority definition" (i.e., that of the professionals) should be excluded. Therefore, it is unreasonable to ask of what the public think physics is. What should be considered is what the professionals regard as being a definition; and it is to this subset of the population that we must exclude minority definitions. If this is what you meant by saying that my definitions should be "correct", then I agree (but be careful using this adjective in academic circles without defining it beforehand; since, as I have said, its use is non-existent). Well, I think we have sorted out what needs to be done, right? So, discussion here should stop, only to be continued below as appropriate; although, I would like to hear your counter-reply to my second paragraph (possibly under the justification of your argument, below?). Krea 13:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Editors who have contributed to this page have 100 words to argue their position. Editors who have not have 20. Editors may combine their arguments. Arguments may (and should) be revised freely in response to each other. In one week (or less, if we're ready), we'll hold a public vote on the positions, and the article will be written from that perspective. –M T 07:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The following arguments are in the development stage. Each position and argument is highlighted. The discussion that follows is not intended to be part of the argument, and may be ignored. Discussions are directed at each contributor to help them refine their argument, and not at potential readers. –M T 18:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is a natural science of matter and its interactions, and of systems best explained in such fundamental terms. Physics is not so broad, in any sense, that it includes penguin mating habits or consciousness. It might have the capacity to explain these phenomenon, but it would be incorrect to call the work that deals with these "physics". Physics is not the foundation of the other sciences - they rely on their own principles and methods. However, physics is broadly applicable, and the systems that other sciences study are fundamentally composed of what physics studies.
1. Definition
Physics is a broad field of inquiry into the natural world, that provides a foundation for the other natural sciences. Although practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena, the principles of physics are applicable throughout natural science; they are interconnected in a coherent set. The development of this set of principles has been on-going at least 2500 years. The principles are mathematical in nature, which mirror or model their subjects. They can serve as a basis for the other sciences in a self-correcting process, collaboratively developed in the last 400 years, called scientific method.
99 words. This is meant as a follow-on version of a definition per the discussion between M and Joshua Davis, as I wish to preserve M's version. Amendments welcome, -- Ancheta Wis 00:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Krea's Definition
My argument for the "general" definition is this:
Quoted by Young & Freedman [1] (a popular undergraduate text), argued for by Quine [2], Feynman [3], and even in Physics for Dummies [4]. The situation is not as simple as "physics doesn't study penguins, ergo physics doesn't study nature". True, physicists do not currently study such complex systems, but what physics essentially is is independent of time: many physicists believe that the understanding of complex systems is just a reflection of todays lack of knowledge. In principle, there is no system beyond physics, which is why they say physics is merely the study of the natural world. Furthermore, the strength of [1] compels inclusion.
Krea 17:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I ask editors which parts of this definition I need to justify. Krea 15:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. As it turns out, I'll try to answer your questions/points in reverse. Hmmm, how would I define a concept of physics? First thing to note would be that the question needs elaboration: I suspect what is meant is current concepts of physics (rather than true concepts, which are not known). The question then just reduces to listing fundamental (as we see them now) principles. This does not merely include matter and energy: I would put in gauge invariance (their permeating influence seems significant), dimensions (i.e., the existence of a space in which these concepts live - but I need to give this more thought actually) and so on (i.e. I can't be bothered to think of any more - I'm tired).
Yes, the study of forces etc. is sufficient to conduct physics, but it is not a necessary condition (as a little side note: did anyone notice that my list of principles actually describes the evolution of the student to use "better" principles in order to study dynamics! Ahh, the simple pleasures of life...). The fact that they are not necessary means that any definition of physics based on these concepts excludes the possibility of new concepts being classified as being physics too. This is a major flaw for me.
For the sake of argument, I ask: so what if physics is equal to science? This is just an issue of semantics isn't it?
Justification? Well, all that I have to hand right now is Feynman, and Young & Freedman. Feynman rants in his usual "why doesn't he just answer my damn question?" way and it's hard to find a clear-cut definition (chapter 2). It's interesting to note, however, that he always talks of general things, and nothing specific (such as forces, energy, etc. Two bits are interesting, however:
Now, while his list of "classes" don't include penguins or the like, he does stress "complete nature", and he continuously make references to the whole of nature. Thus, although he never states a definition, the context of the chapter suggests (and I admit, it is only my suggestion) this: I conject that it is not unreasonable to suggest that his definition of physics would be the study of nature (since he states that the basic problem of physics is to find the laws that govern nature). This no definitive justification of my assertion however (although I would still say it is not an unreasonable indication).
Young & Freedman's University Physics with Modern Physics, 11th (International) edition (a popular undergraduate text on the general principles of physics) states on page 2, under section 1.1 titled The Nature of Physics:
All other texts that I have a rather more specific in their analysis, however, and I can find no other definition of physics. I could go to the department library and see if they have anything else, but I doubt I'll find time for that until at least the new year. Finally, sorry for the length! (But to be fair, the justifications bit took up a lot of space). Krea 00:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I would argue that what I say, and what Young & Freedman say is practically identical: "...[physics] is merely the study of nature" and "Physicists observe the phenomena of nature and try to find patterns and principles that relate these phenomena" respectively. I don't understand how you say that this quote indicates that physics only accounts for all of nature, and does not explicitly state that physics understands all of it. What is the difference between physically accounting for something, and understanding it? You gave Macbeth (I think) as an example before, but that was for something a little different. But, more importantly, this distinction seems particular to you, M. I do not think that other people would make this distinction - just as Young & Freedman do not. I am happy to change the word "study" in my definition to "observation" in which case I am referencing this text, and you will effectively be arguing against the position taken
by two well respected physicists.
Krea
11:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. The distinction between accounting for, and understanding complex systems is dependent upon knowledge. We have so little knowledge of the rules right now that it is not possible to understand these complex systems in terms of what we know well, as we both know. However, I assume that when (or if) we acquire enough knowledge of nature's rules about the fundamental stuff, a physicist would be interested in understanding these complex systems in the same way that we now understand atomic spectra (at least for hydrogenic systems). Thus, this accounting-for/understanding distinction is a moving boundary: what was complex in the past is not so today, and I conject the same for the future (stress on the "conject" part). But, I don't see how you inferred that Young & Freedman were talking about accounting for nature, rather than understanding it? To me, I think they saw no distinction since they believed that the distinction is merely dependent on time - and their definition was independent of time (i.e. applicable at any point in history: the definition was appropriate in C18th, is appropriate now, and, they believe, will be appropriate in the future). Krea 13:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
These arguments are not so important anymore because your position is now untenable isn't it? What I say in my definition, and what Young and Freedman say, amongst others, is almost identical. You could even forget that it was my suggestion and leave it as a case of paraphrasing a respected source. We can drop all the arguments that we have been making to try to convince each other: Y & F have settled the argument. Unless you want to argue against two respected professionals, the broad definition should be included. In fact, I would even suggest there is no need for the vote since there is nothing to argue about anymore. I counted smack-on 100 words by the way. The rest of what you highlighted was not an argument, but the context (and you missed the references too). Krea 22:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
1. Rutherford's Definition
"All science is either physics or stamp collecting" -- Ernest Rutherford [D]
[D] Ernest Rutherford in J. B. Birks Rutherford at Manchester (1962)
8 words.
84 word paraphrase: Science is not merely a collection of facts, but more importantly, a consistent, coherent structure of interconnected results which follow scientific method.
At the time Rutherford spoke, only physics could claim this position. Anything else became a series of ad-hoc positions (stamp collecting: matter, energy, atoms, penguins). Biology had not yet discovered the structure of DNA; the atoms of chemistry had not yet been explained by quantum mechanics. Progress has come by using the constructs of physics.
Confer with Joshua Davis' statement included in #Position B.
1. Einstein's Definition
"Physics constitutes a logical system of thought which is in a state of evolution, and whose basis cannot be obtained through distillation by any inductive method from the experiences lived through, but which can only be attained by free invention." [E]
39 words - [E] Albert Einstein (1936), Physics and Reality, summarized in his Essays in Physics (1950) New York, Philosophical Library p. 51
Confer with Noetica's and Krea's statements above. I do not have a copy of Einstein's Ideas and Opinions which actually dovetail with Position B above. -- Ancheta Wis 01:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
"[The] general laws on which the structure of theoretical physics is based claim to be valid for any natural phenomenon whatsover. With them, it ought to be possible to arrive at the description, that is to say, the theory, of every natural process, including life, by means of pure deduction ... " [E2]
48 words. [E2] Albert Einstein (1918, Max Planck's 60th birthday) "Principles of Research" in Ideas and Opinions, ISBN 0-517-55601-4 (1954) p.226. -- Ancheta Wis 08:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as someone with two bachelors, 2 masters and a PhD in physics, this article is kind of a mess. I could step in to try to weigh in, but who wants to get in the middle of a big fight?-- ReasonIsBest 18:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't follow anymore. What are the yellow boxes? New proposals to rewrite the article or just pieces/quotes to support the original proposals? Nick Mks 10:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose that we archive the lead proposals, some comments on definition, the straw poll, the vote regarding definition (including the arguments), and this comment on that vote. I won't be posting anything there, and would rather not wait for it to be apparent through non-posting that others have similarly abandonded discussion there. –M T 19:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Below you will find one or more positions/arguments/statements (herein "positions"). If you agree with a position, add the following to the bottom of its list:
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The rest of this section probably won't interest you if you are new to this and would like to get on with voting. Skip down to the positions.
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If you (that is, a person who has been engaged in the discussion) violate any of these rules, even as far as not including the ---- separator at the top of your position, your edit will be reverted and treated as if it never ocurred. (As opposed to the reverter modifying your position in some way, or breaking the rules by suggesting the correction.) A reason will be given, and you may try again if appropriate. "Support" votes cannot be removed in this manner, but an offending vote's comment section can have its end clipped off if it goes over 50 words (leaving a "… [comment has been trimmed]"), or it can be collapsed into a single listitem/paragraph if it takes up several lines.
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Try to act in good faith, and take as a (non-mandatory) example the tone/style/etc. of previous positions. –M T 18:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics, biology, and psychology are different sciences. When one studies the universal fundamentals (that is, matter and energy), they are doing physics. When one studies living organisms, biology. Minds and behaviour, psychology. One important aspect of physics is its usefulness in many other sciences. Knowing physics will drastically help a chemist do chemistry. A different approach is to define physics from use: if you are using the principles of physics, you are "doing" physics. Thus, a schoolchild practicing/learning physics would be doing physics, as would a car designer, a sniper/artilleryman, and also a chemist? person who studies chemical reactions/molecules. But this is wrong - here, the word "doing" actually means "using". These people use physics. They don't "do" physics. They don't conduct a scientific study of... of what? Of the fundamental: matter and energy. That's what physics studies. The opposition argues that physics studies all of nature - but this means that any study is physics. This would essentially make "physics" synonymous with "science", and render categories like "natural sciences" nonsensical. This position too is incorrect. Physics isn't any study of nature - it's the study of the fundamental constituents, which we recognize to be matter and energy.
–M
T
Physics is a general set of principles thought to be obeyed by all known systems in nature. Practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena which are most amenable to direct study using the aforementioned concepts. Most notably this involves fundamental properties of matter, energy, space, and time (which are now all known to be intricately related). As human knowledge has advanced, the set of physical principles and the phenomena fruitfully studied with them have both increased, leading to active interdisciplinary fields such as biophysics and geophysics. Nonetheless direct application of the laws of physics is (currently) prohibitively difficult in many cases. Thus fields like biology, chemistry and others have their own methods and concepts which cannot be directly derived from the presumed underlying physical laws. So physics is not any study of nature; that is natural science, different fields of which have developed their own tools and language. But, importantly, should any field of science discover some phenomena which violates basic laws of physics, the laws would have to be modified in order to retain their general, encompassing stature. Finally, this article is for the general reader, not an expert, and should be written so. Joshua Davis 04:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I know that you guys are trying to wrap the discussion up, but I feel that this really needs to be said. Your original article on Physics was very Asiancentric, augmenting all the contributions of these ancient civilizations in Asia that hardly made any developments relating to modern Physics as we now understand it as a subject. Just about every trustworthy source I have read places a little bit of emphasis on the Greeks, but then places most of its emphasis on what Europeans did after the Renaissance (who, like it or not, were the first people to really do anything with the subject), while zero emphasis is placed on Asia. Unfortunately, when I moved over to this discussion and then clicked on the "article" link above it appears that the original article was edited for the better, but then under the section that discusses the history of Physics, there is a paragraph that is once again Asiancentric. Can anyone provide sources (other than from Western Civilization bashing sites), that prove that the Indians and Muslims were the ones that developed the roots of modern Physics? It wasn't until I came to Wikipedia that I read such nonsense. But then again, Wikipedia likes to make sure every group is equally represented instead of presenting history as it really is. Cftiger 10:51 26 November 2006
It seems that some new people are coming in(or maybe returning after a long hiatus), but they may be discouraged from participating due to the ridiculous length of the talk page. I propose archiving everything up to, but not including, "Vote regarding definition of physics". That should leave enough of the background of the discussion around but should a lot of repetition. Also, to prevent comments from continuing to pile up in an unmanageable I way, I again implore people to please be concise in our discussions. Joshua Davis 21:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
SFC9394- When we do the next stage, you might consider using the main Physics/WIP project page for the texts to be voted on, leaving this talk page for discussion. Experience has shown that trying to have both texts and discussion on the same page doesn't work very easily. -- MichaelMaggs 16:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have been away from the table for a bit – for reasons of real life, but also in the belief that the premise set out was fairly simple.
The process has, to be frank, broken down. Progress simply isn’t happening.
This can’t continue any longer – so there are 4 options that I offer to other editors:
1. Three final versions are approved – only three can come out of this process, and a vote of the body of people here may be required if necessary to produce these three. With these three final versions a wikipedia editorial community vote is taken – by notification of the vote on the community portal. (the rules I propose for this option are here).
2. A placeholder is put in the WIP page for this section, “Physics is….”, and we move on to productive improvement rather than the pointless back and forthing that has gone on for the last month.
3. The WIP page is opened for editing to all and discussions continue on the lead section.
4. This WIP project is wound up.
All that I require is whether you support 1, 2, 3 or 4.
This process has shown the inherent difficulties in how wikipedia functions. In summary, consensus can’t be reached here because we are facing a problem that has multiple answers, and one which everyone has their own biased views on (and I use the term biased in the nicest possible fashion – an experimentalist is going to view the subject very differently from a theorists, both of whom are going to view it differently from a philosopher). Thus it is either time to start asking for votes on the issue (create something that the “mean” of the populous are happy with), ignore the problem for a while, or close the project. 1, 2, 3 or 4. SFC9394 20:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
4 options that I offer to other editors:
1. Three final versions are approved – only three can come out of this process, and a vote of the body of people here may be required if necessary to produce these three. With these three final versions a wikipedia editorial community vote is taken – by notification of the vote on the community portal. (the rules I propose for this option are here).
2. A placeholder is put in the WIP page for this section, “Physics is….”, and we move on to productive improvement rather than the pointless back and forthing that has gone on for the last month.
3. The WIP page is opened for editing to all and discussions continue on the lead section.
4. This WIP project is wound up.
All that I require is whether you support 1, 2, 3 or 4.