This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Ok - here is what I propose. For anyone who wants to (be they a long time contributor to this page or someone who hasn't posted anything) I invite them to post a 200-400 word lead section. This is all that I ask for - no discussions - not critiquing what someone else has proposed - just the lead section you want. [...]
If you don't wish to submit a proposal then that is fine. A straw poll will be taken on what is received. The straw poll won't be a vote, and the outcome of it won't decide what the lead text is. What it will allow us all to do is to focus on the specifics. I posted my comments (~400 words) 25 hours ago - and this page has racked up ~4,000 words of response in that short time. Great if they were new words, but it is just chasing tail stuff once again. If folks won't focus voluntarily then I will attempt to do it by this method of asking for a lead text proposal from all parties. I suggest around a week or so for submissions to be accepted - that is flexible if editors have reasons for requiring a longer amount of time. [...]
I submit the above proposal to other editors - focus is required - the past 25 hours have confirmed in my mind that without it this is just going to become nothing but people going around in circles.
SFC9394 23:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Format:
----
====~~~'s lead proposal, ~~~~~====
Your proposal here
----
Ok, this is what I have quickly come up with... Krea 01:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is the process by which one aims to obtain knowledge of nature: it tries to discover and understand the basic constituents of nature and their interactions through a framework called the scientific method.
Throughout history, the difficulty of this task meant that, at any one particular time, physics often had to focus its enquiry on some specific aspect of nature on which reasonable progress could be made. Thus, physics is often regarded as a science separate from the other traditional sciences (such as chemistry, biology etc.), which only aims to talk about those aspects of nature not covered by these fields - even though it can be, and often is, regarded to be their progenitor. Therefore, it is often heard that physics is the study of matter and energy, forces and motion, or some combination of these concepts, even though it is widely regarded that the true domain of physics is, in fact, not bounded by such concepts.
Physics series: |
---|
Topics in Physics |
Major fields of Physics |
Physics Portal |
1. Definition -- See list of topics to the right, or see the categories broken anchor
Physics is a science.
2. Introduction
3. History & Foundations
4. Principles/Concepts
5. Current Topics/Current Research
6. Applications and Influence
7. References and Notes
8. External Links
Word counts:
Further development from a tutorial point of view might place the physics of the playground (i.e., classical mechanics) under section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.
Interrelationships of the topics of physics might go in section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.
Some of the contributions to complex systems by Murray Gell-Mann and others might be placed in section 5.
It would be a shame not to highlight David R. Ingham's venn diagram for physics.
Note added on 18 November: Now that a number of comments have been made (see below), I am amending my proposal to address certain criticisms that I consider worthy of a response. I will not, for now, directly comment on any comments. I have simply marked deleted text before text that replaces it, so that the changes are evident. (I have also removed the image: it was really just a placeholder, and the copyright for it needs further documentation.) – Noetica]
Physics is the science that aims to identify the basic constituents of the natural world, and the any laws according to which they combine and interact in complex systems. This is how physics is best understood broadly, philosophically, and in its origins. This definition of physics is useful for an understanding of its origins and its primary role, in a philosophical and historical context. The term is derived from Greek: τα φυσικά (ta phusiká), "[the study of] the things of nature".
In modern times, however, and for practical purposes, physics is usually understood in a more narrow sense. There are special sciences adapted to deal with certain kinds of complex systems: chemistry with reactions among elements and compounds, biology with living organisms, neuroscience with nervous systems, and so on. Each of these special sciences adds its own concepts, theories, and methods to the general stock that is available for all of science. This consideration calls for another definition, to supplement the first:
Physics is the rest of science after the special sciences are taken out: it is concerned more with basic constituents, and less with complex systems.
For most of the present article this narrow understanding of physics will be assumed. The article will deal with physics as it is conceived of, and practised, by contemporary physicists. Physics, narrowed in this way, has evolved these core features:
Even by the narrow definition, physics retains a central place among the sciences. It is only in physics that a theory of everything could even be contemplated. As W.V.O. Quine puts it: "If the physicist suspected there was any event that did not consist in a redistribution of the elementary states allowed for by his physical theory, he would seek a way of supplementing his theory. Full coverage in this sense is the very business of physics, and only of physics" (Theories and things, 1981, p. 99). Because the reach of physics remains so broad and universal, the work of physicists inspires progress in other sciences. Theoretical work by the Nobel-laureate physicist Erwin Schrödinger (in What is Life?, 1944) stimulated the discovery of DNA. And that discovery in molecular biology was achieved at the Cavendish: a physics laboratory.
Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time. Physicists formulate these laws as mathematical theories which attempt to model the behaviour of physical systems at some perceived fundamental level. The aim, however, is to go beyond describing physical phenomena, and to construct theories which can also predict how a physical system will behave. These predictions can then be tested experimentally to verify or falsify the theory.
Some theories are of such significance that they are referred to as the laws of physics. Typically, these are physical principles that are believed to be common to all physical systems, or at least are of very general applicability. Some principles, such as Newton's laws of motion, are still generally called "laws" even though they are now known not to be of such universal applicability as was once thought. The word 'law' is a misnomer since even a law of physics could, in principle, be disproved by experiment. Other theories are more limited: they describe the behaviour of specific physical systems only, or are applicable only under certain circumstances.
Since one of the major goals of physics is the formulation of theories of universal applicability, on a broad perspective physics can be viewed as the study of those univeral laws which define, at the most fundamental level possible, the behaviour of the physical universe.
Classical physics traditionally included the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat. The more recent fields of general and special relativity have also usually been placed within this category. Modern Physics is a term normally used to cover fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics and condensed matter physics. Although this distinction can be commonly found in older writings, it is of limited current significance as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.
Physics research is divided into two main branches: experimental physics and theoretical physics. Experimental physics focuses mainly on empirical research, and on the development and testing of theories against practical experiment. Theoretical physics is more closely related to mathematics, and involves generating and working through the mathematical implications of systems of physical theories, even where experimental evidence of their validity may not be immediately available.
Physics is the science concerned with describing nature at the fundamental level, the level of matter and energy. There appear to be stable and universal rules that determine the behaviour of these base constituents, and thereby the behaviour of all systems composed of them. Through observation and mathematical theorization, physicists develop models to characterize and predict this behaviour. Physics has presented many accurate and practical models and theories, but there are still unknown dephts to be explored.
With the advent of the scientific method, physics emerged from natural philosophy as one of the natural sciences. [Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla aliquam tempor velit. Nulla arcu turpis, faucibus eu, accumsan non, tempus et, felis. Morbi imperdiet vehicula quam. Sed dolor ligula, pharetra lacinia, lacinia in, vestibulum quis, justo. Quisque lectus nunc, ullamcorper a, venenatis ut, pellentesque ac, turpis.]
Physics is traditionally divided into two major categories. Classical physics includes the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat, as well as the more recent general and special relativity. Modern physics covers fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics, and condensed matter physics. This distinction is fading, as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.
200~ words. The first paragraph might stand on its own, but major historic points and a listing of major subfields (and hence coverage) are surely worth including. The thumb I'd like to use would be bubble chamber tracks. They're very precise, but also lively, almost artistic. The problem is finding a properly licensed image, since we can't claim fair use. Some points:
–M T 22:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is a broad field of inquiry into the natural world, that provides foundational elements for the other natural sciences. Although practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena, the principles of physics are applicable throughout natural science.
Then some example about how your circulatory system obeys hydrodynamics and how chemistry is complicated quantum mechanics. Then go go on to list the traditional areas of physics but then point out that there are people who do the physics of biology, geology, information systems, ... . The main points to get across are that physics is really broad(from sub-atomic to extra-galactic); it's principles apply throughout natural science; traditionally physicists study the things in the list I made above; there are physicists in other disciplnes as well(this is connected to the second point). I think this gives the field sufficient credit without getting into metaphysics.
Appended to the archive#1 14:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Almost a week has passed since the last submission, and 10 days since the first, so lets open the straw poll. Voice your support or opposition for each, and give terse reasons for your choice. A few sentences, at most, should be enough. Avoid arguments. Focus on the lead as a lead, and not as an argument for or against a given position. –M T 09:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
We have very few external responses, unless we get more, I don't think that this will be productive. Noetica and Krea, please consider revising. You wrote ~600 and ~800 words, averaging 100 and 130 per point. The others range from 34 (MichaelMaggs) to 48 (O. Prytz). It might've been better had none of us commented, save perhaps pre-poll corrective comments. But this is not ideal regardless, since we don't seem to have professional writers, well-known physicists, or a target audience sample reviewing and commenting. Ideas welcome. –M T 17:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Are we back to the discussing? If so, then I think Ancheta's suggestion is excellent. However, I think it'll fail at the very next correction, unfortunately: "Physics is the science of nature/Physics is the science of energy". M, you criticise both my and Noetica's definitions for being too heavy on explanations/justifications, right? Well, I don't think that is a problem at all since, as Ancheta has said, we are trying to define something that is not trivial. Hence, justifications are required I would say. Whilst I am on this point, can I say that to Ancheta that the danger of such definitions is precisely the point Noetica is warning us about: if you define physics as the study of energy, then it is in danger of being incorrect; whereas if it is defined as the study of nature, whilst it may be vague, it will never be incorrect. This leads me nicely to what Noetica, as do I, would now like to know: what is it exactly that bugs the "energists" about the broad definition? I am finding it really hard to see any non-trivial objection to it. For example, Michael, you say that my "first sentence...fails in my view as it covers a whole range of non-physics research such as a biological study into the mating habits of penguins." But I've explained time and again why such an argument is useless: you have used your definition of physics ("...covers a whole range of non-physics [Id est, non-physics-topics from your definition] research...") to argue against mine. This is no argument, and its use without further justification of its existence should be refrained from. So, objections please "energists". (It would help everyone if you yourselves attacked your own objections - something good physicists should always do - so as what gets posted is a good, well thought out, and non-trivial objection). Krea 14:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I take it that I seem to have offended you Michael. I'm sorry - that really wasn't intentional. I'm getting as equally tired of this as everyone I'm afraid: we can't seem to stop arguing in perpetualty. Let me first answer Michael's comments (you can skip this bit if you like - it's only here for completeness).
This argument is easily rebuffed: Why should the definition explain how the subject is conducted? It is a definition and nothing more. It is allowed to be as esoteric as it wishes to be. This is a fault however, but it easily remedied: we then go on to say that practically, physics studies energy, etc. Please try to see this from the other perspective: a definition is not concerned with issues of practicality or explanation: it merely defines what the object is.
This is more interesting. I'm sorry but I have been trying to define things in a "mathematical" sense (what other sense is there? All definitions are the same: a "mathematical" definition is no different from any other. There is nothing special about mathematical ones - they merely state what properties the object possesses. That is all). So have you been making "mathematical" definitions ("Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time."). So has everybody else here. What is wrong with that? Yes, they may be horribly wrong (I could define physics as the study of the colour blue - I don't think the world is ready for this one yet though...) I said before that all we can do is hope that these definitions are reasonable - and both the narrow and broad are. Anyway, this was just here so that I didn't offend Michael by ignoring him: I don't expect that anyone bothered to read this far though....hmmm, I could just say anything here couldn't I? No. I'll restrain myself...
Anyway, M, I take it you want this to be an easy definition for school kids. Well, I don't (technically, I do too, but I also want it to be something more). I want my peers to look at this page and say, "ah, actually, that's not a bad definition" because I can tell you this: all (ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration) definitions of scientific/mathematical objects are horrible. Somebody from the mathematics department not long ago said that he looked at the definition of a commutative ring (or maybe it was a Noetherian ring, or possible something else - I forget now) and saw three definitions - one of which was wrong!
I think we should just drop this argument and go back to the very basics: discuss what we want this section to be; because I think we, as a group, have different beliefs about what we want this section to be about - which is a core problem that may be causing our wires to cross. I think we all just jumped into it really, and then tried to clarify what we wanted the article to be about. I suggest we just discuss in a very careful, slow, articulate, and civilized manner what we want the section to be about without going into detail about how one would go about this. If this fails, then there is no hope at all. So, lets just all drop the attitude (myself included): SFC9394, may I suggest a "bitch-ometer"? If anyone of us is behaving like a twat, then rack up one point. Five points accumulated, say, from the opinion of any editor (What? We're all grown ups, right? We don't bear grudges...) and the user is blocked from commenting for a set period of time. Hopefully the totally subjective and premiership-referee style way of unsystematic decision making should keep us on our best of behaviour (right?) Anyway, that's just my opinion... Krea 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Ok - here is what I propose. For anyone who wants to (be they a long time contributor to this page or someone who hasn't posted anything) I invite them to post a 200-400 word lead section. This is all that I ask for - no discussions - not critiquing what someone else has proposed - just the lead section you want. [...]
If you don't wish to submit a proposal then that is fine. A straw poll will be taken on what is received. The straw poll won't be a vote, and the outcome of it won't decide what the lead text is. What it will allow us all to do is to focus on the specifics. I posted my comments (~400 words) 25 hours ago - and this page has racked up ~4,000 words of response in that short time. Great if they were new words, but it is just chasing tail stuff once again. If folks won't focus voluntarily then I will attempt to do it by this method of asking for a lead text proposal from all parties. I suggest around a week or so for submissions to be accepted - that is flexible if editors have reasons for requiring a longer amount of time. [...]
I submit the above proposal to other editors - focus is required - the past 25 hours have confirmed in my mind that without it this is just going to become nothing but people going around in circles.
SFC9394 23:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Format:
----
====~~~'s lead proposal, ~~~~~====
Your proposal here
----
Ok, this is what I have quickly come up with... Krea 01:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is the process by which one aims to obtain knowledge of nature: it tries to discover and understand the basic constituents of nature and their interactions through a framework called the scientific method.
Throughout history, the difficulty of this task meant that, at any one particular time, physics often had to focus its enquiry on some specific aspect of nature on which reasonable progress could be made. Thus, physics is often regarded as a science separate from the other traditional sciences (such as chemistry, biology etc.), which only aims to talk about those aspects of nature not covered by these fields - even though it can be, and often is, regarded to be their progenitor. Therefore, it is often heard that physics is the study of matter and energy, forces and motion, or some combination of these concepts, even though it is widely regarded that the true domain of physics is, in fact, not bounded by such concepts.
Physics series: |
---|
Topics in Physics |
Major fields of Physics |
Physics Portal |
1. Definition -- See list of topics to the right, or see the categories broken anchor
Physics is a science.
2. Introduction
3. History & Foundations
4. Principles/Concepts
5. Current Topics/Current Research
6. Applications and Influence
7. References and Notes
8. External Links
Word counts:
Further development from a tutorial point of view might place the physics of the playground (i.e., classical mechanics) under section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.
Interrelationships of the topics of physics might go in section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.
Some of the contributions to complex systems by Murray Gell-Mann and others might be placed in section 5.
It would be a shame not to highlight David R. Ingham's venn diagram for physics.
Note added on 18 November: Now that a number of comments have been made (see below), I am amending my proposal to address certain criticisms that I consider worthy of a response. I will not, for now, directly comment on any comments. I have simply marked deleted text before text that replaces it, so that the changes are evident. (I have also removed the image: it was really just a placeholder, and the copyright for it needs further documentation.) – Noetica]
Physics is the science that aims to identify the basic constituents of the natural world, and the any laws according to which they combine and interact in complex systems. This is how physics is best understood broadly, philosophically, and in its origins. This definition of physics is useful for an understanding of its origins and its primary role, in a philosophical and historical context. The term is derived from Greek: τα φυσικά (ta phusiká), "[the study of] the things of nature".
In modern times, however, and for practical purposes, physics is usually understood in a more narrow sense. There are special sciences adapted to deal with certain kinds of complex systems: chemistry with reactions among elements and compounds, biology with living organisms, neuroscience with nervous systems, and so on. Each of these special sciences adds its own concepts, theories, and methods to the general stock that is available for all of science. This consideration calls for another definition, to supplement the first:
Physics is the rest of science after the special sciences are taken out: it is concerned more with basic constituents, and less with complex systems.
For most of the present article this narrow understanding of physics will be assumed. The article will deal with physics as it is conceived of, and practised, by contemporary physicists. Physics, narrowed in this way, has evolved these core features:
Even by the narrow definition, physics retains a central place among the sciences. It is only in physics that a theory of everything could even be contemplated. As W.V.O. Quine puts it: "If the physicist suspected there was any event that did not consist in a redistribution of the elementary states allowed for by his physical theory, he would seek a way of supplementing his theory. Full coverage in this sense is the very business of physics, and only of physics" (Theories and things, 1981, p. 99). Because the reach of physics remains so broad and universal, the work of physicists inspires progress in other sciences. Theoretical work by the Nobel-laureate physicist Erwin Schrödinger (in What is Life?, 1944) stimulated the discovery of DNA. And that discovery in molecular biology was achieved at the Cavendish: a physics laboratory.
Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time. Physicists formulate these laws as mathematical theories which attempt to model the behaviour of physical systems at some perceived fundamental level. The aim, however, is to go beyond describing physical phenomena, and to construct theories which can also predict how a physical system will behave. These predictions can then be tested experimentally to verify or falsify the theory.
Some theories are of such significance that they are referred to as the laws of physics. Typically, these are physical principles that are believed to be common to all physical systems, or at least are of very general applicability. Some principles, such as Newton's laws of motion, are still generally called "laws" even though they are now known not to be of such universal applicability as was once thought. The word 'law' is a misnomer since even a law of physics could, in principle, be disproved by experiment. Other theories are more limited: they describe the behaviour of specific physical systems only, or are applicable only under certain circumstances.
Since one of the major goals of physics is the formulation of theories of universal applicability, on a broad perspective physics can be viewed as the study of those univeral laws which define, at the most fundamental level possible, the behaviour of the physical universe.
Classical physics traditionally included the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat. The more recent fields of general and special relativity have also usually been placed within this category. Modern Physics is a term normally used to cover fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics and condensed matter physics. Although this distinction can be commonly found in older writings, it is of limited current significance as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.
Physics research is divided into two main branches: experimental physics and theoretical physics. Experimental physics focuses mainly on empirical research, and on the development and testing of theories against practical experiment. Theoretical physics is more closely related to mathematics, and involves generating and working through the mathematical implications of systems of physical theories, even where experimental evidence of their validity may not be immediately available.
Physics is the science concerned with describing nature at the fundamental level, the level of matter and energy. There appear to be stable and universal rules that determine the behaviour of these base constituents, and thereby the behaviour of all systems composed of them. Through observation and mathematical theorization, physicists develop models to characterize and predict this behaviour. Physics has presented many accurate and practical models and theories, but there are still unknown dephts to be explored.
With the advent of the scientific method, physics emerged from natural philosophy as one of the natural sciences. [Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla aliquam tempor velit. Nulla arcu turpis, faucibus eu, accumsan non, tempus et, felis. Morbi imperdiet vehicula quam. Sed dolor ligula, pharetra lacinia, lacinia in, vestibulum quis, justo. Quisque lectus nunc, ullamcorper a, venenatis ut, pellentesque ac, turpis.]
Physics is traditionally divided into two major categories. Classical physics includes the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat, as well as the more recent general and special relativity. Modern physics covers fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics, and condensed matter physics. This distinction is fading, as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.
200~ words. The first paragraph might stand on its own, but major historic points and a listing of major subfields (and hence coverage) are surely worth including. The thumb I'd like to use would be bubble chamber tracks. They're very precise, but also lively, almost artistic. The problem is finding a properly licensed image, since we can't claim fair use. Some points:
–M T 22:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Physics is a broad field of inquiry into the natural world, that provides foundational elements for the other natural sciences. Although practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena, the principles of physics are applicable throughout natural science.
Then some example about how your circulatory system obeys hydrodynamics and how chemistry is complicated quantum mechanics. Then go go on to list the traditional areas of physics but then point out that there are people who do the physics of biology, geology, information systems, ... . The main points to get across are that physics is really broad(from sub-atomic to extra-galactic); it's principles apply throughout natural science; traditionally physicists study the things in the list I made above; there are physicists in other disciplnes as well(this is connected to the second point). I think this gives the field sufficient credit without getting into metaphysics.
Appended to the archive#1 14:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Almost a week has passed since the last submission, and 10 days since the first, so lets open the straw poll. Voice your support or opposition for each, and give terse reasons for your choice. A few sentences, at most, should be enough. Avoid arguments. Focus on the lead as a lead, and not as an argument for or against a given position. –M T 09:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
We have very few external responses, unless we get more, I don't think that this will be productive. Noetica and Krea, please consider revising. You wrote ~600 and ~800 words, averaging 100 and 130 per point. The others range from 34 (MichaelMaggs) to 48 (O. Prytz). It might've been better had none of us commented, save perhaps pre-poll corrective comments. But this is not ideal regardless, since we don't seem to have professional writers, well-known physicists, or a target audience sample reviewing and commenting. Ideas welcome. –M T 17:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Are we back to the discussing? If so, then I think Ancheta's suggestion is excellent. However, I think it'll fail at the very next correction, unfortunately: "Physics is the science of nature/Physics is the science of energy". M, you criticise both my and Noetica's definitions for being too heavy on explanations/justifications, right? Well, I don't think that is a problem at all since, as Ancheta has said, we are trying to define something that is not trivial. Hence, justifications are required I would say. Whilst I am on this point, can I say that to Ancheta that the danger of such definitions is precisely the point Noetica is warning us about: if you define physics as the study of energy, then it is in danger of being incorrect; whereas if it is defined as the study of nature, whilst it may be vague, it will never be incorrect. This leads me nicely to what Noetica, as do I, would now like to know: what is it exactly that bugs the "energists" about the broad definition? I am finding it really hard to see any non-trivial objection to it. For example, Michael, you say that my "first sentence...fails in my view as it covers a whole range of non-physics research such as a biological study into the mating habits of penguins." But I've explained time and again why such an argument is useless: you have used your definition of physics ("...covers a whole range of non-physics [Id est, non-physics-topics from your definition] research...") to argue against mine. This is no argument, and its use without further justification of its existence should be refrained from. So, objections please "energists". (It would help everyone if you yourselves attacked your own objections - something good physicists should always do - so as what gets posted is a good, well thought out, and non-trivial objection). Krea 14:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I take it that I seem to have offended you Michael. I'm sorry - that really wasn't intentional. I'm getting as equally tired of this as everyone I'm afraid: we can't seem to stop arguing in perpetualty. Let me first answer Michael's comments (you can skip this bit if you like - it's only here for completeness).
This argument is easily rebuffed: Why should the definition explain how the subject is conducted? It is a definition and nothing more. It is allowed to be as esoteric as it wishes to be. This is a fault however, but it easily remedied: we then go on to say that practically, physics studies energy, etc. Please try to see this from the other perspective: a definition is not concerned with issues of practicality or explanation: it merely defines what the object is.
This is more interesting. I'm sorry but I have been trying to define things in a "mathematical" sense (what other sense is there? All definitions are the same: a "mathematical" definition is no different from any other. There is nothing special about mathematical ones - they merely state what properties the object possesses. That is all). So have you been making "mathematical" definitions ("Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time."). So has everybody else here. What is wrong with that? Yes, they may be horribly wrong (I could define physics as the study of the colour blue - I don't think the world is ready for this one yet though...) I said before that all we can do is hope that these definitions are reasonable - and both the narrow and broad are. Anyway, this was just here so that I didn't offend Michael by ignoring him: I don't expect that anyone bothered to read this far though....hmmm, I could just say anything here couldn't I? No. I'll restrain myself...
Anyway, M, I take it you want this to be an easy definition for school kids. Well, I don't (technically, I do too, but I also want it to be something more). I want my peers to look at this page and say, "ah, actually, that's not a bad definition" because I can tell you this: all (ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration) definitions of scientific/mathematical objects are horrible. Somebody from the mathematics department not long ago said that he looked at the definition of a commutative ring (or maybe it was a Noetherian ring, or possible something else - I forget now) and saw three definitions - one of which was wrong!
I think we should just drop this argument and go back to the very basics: discuss what we want this section to be; because I think we, as a group, have different beliefs about what we want this section to be about - which is a core problem that may be causing our wires to cross. I think we all just jumped into it really, and then tried to clarify what we wanted the article to be about. I suggest we just discuss in a very careful, slow, articulate, and civilized manner what we want the section to be about without going into detail about how one would go about this. If this fails, then there is no hope at all. So, lets just all drop the attitude (myself included): SFC9394, may I suggest a "bitch-ometer"? If anyone of us is behaving like a twat, then rack up one point. Five points accumulated, say, from the opinion of any editor (What? We're all grown ups, right? We don't bear grudges...) and the user is blocked from commenting for a set period of time. Hopefully the totally subjective and premiership-referee style way of unsystematic decision making should keep us on our best of behaviour (right?) Anyway, that's just my opinion... Krea 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)