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![]() | The section " Exile to Sigmaringen" of this article was edited to contain a total or partial translation of Philippe Pétain from the French Wikipedia. Consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors. (This notice applies to version 971226015 and subsequent versions of this page.) |
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the Dutch version has a much more complete and as far as i found out, a much better discussion, of Petains role in the First World War. If I find time I will provide a translation, though I am not a native speaker so my Duglish will need some correcting. Hugh van der Mandele, Harlingen, the Netherlands.
I removed the sentence from the world war one section that stated "His advocacy of a defensive strategy contributed to the construction of the Maginot Line." Petain was most definitely not an advocate of a defensive strategy, particularly during the interwar period. He imagined an initial "soaking up" of a German attack, followed by a vigorous counterattack, and assented to the Maginot line because lack of manpower, cash, and political will made maintaining sufficient troop strength impossible. His first conception of it was a series of "lighter but unbroken prepared battlefield" (Williams, 2005). Sort of a "kill trap idea- hardly an addiction to static defence. Yet another example of this article factual difficulties.
p97dav45
19:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
We should change the lead image to this. It feels like more of a formal photograph, it’s clearer, it has better color balance, and it’s less messy around the edges. Thoughts? The Image Editor ( talk) 18:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Four articles in en-wiki including this one have the quotation, "I am, and remain morally, your leader" (example from this article in context: "he maintained in a letter to the French people that 'I am, and remain morally, your leader'."). Examples include:
All of these edits include content translated and adapted from the French article fr:Philippe Pétain, where the content containing Pétain's quotation in French was originally added 00:49, 27 August 2006 by French IP user fr:83.113.203.32 ( talk · contribs) in revision 9635959 ( diff), which included the following text:
Le 20 août 1944, le Maréchal fut enlevé et emmené contre son gré à Sigmaringen en Allemagne, où s'étaient réfugiés les dignitaires de son régime. Une fois de plus, il ne tenta pas de résister, et ne songea pas à démissionner, maintenant dans une lettre aux Français la fiction selon laquelle "je suis et demeure moralement votre chef."
This edit does not include any references, but in 2006 that was not unusual in en-wiki, and even less so in fr-wiki. In any case, I haven't been able to verify this quotation. There are three books I found that do contain the original French quotation word for word, but they date to 2018, 2019, and 2021, and there is surrounding content in those books that looks very similar to the surrounding context in the French article of 26 Aug. 2006; so much so, that either the books copied from the 2006 version of the French WP article, or the French article and the books are all based on a source earlier than 2006 that I have not been able to find in Google books or in Gallica.
Given this situation, I am removing this content from the four English articles listed. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 01:12, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
References
Le lendemain, 20 août 1944, il est emmené contre son gré par l'armée allemande à Belfort puis, le 8 septembre, à Sigmaringen dans le sud-ouest de l'Allemagne195, où s'étaient réfugiés les dignitaires de son régime. Plutôt que de démissionner, il entretient, dans une lettre aux Français la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».
Petain cede finalement a la demande allemande. Le 20 aout 1944, il est emmene contre son gre par les Nazis a Belfort puis, le 8 septembre, a Sigmaringen en Allemagne, ou se sont egalement refugie les dignataires vichyste. Plutot que se demissioner, malgre les injonctions de Laval, Petain entretient dans une lettre aux Francais la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».
Malgre les injonctions de Laval, Petain entretient dans une lettre aux Francais la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».
This article states that, "After his conviction, the court stripped Pétain of all military ranks and honours including the distinction of Marshal of France." However, the article for the Marshal of France indicates (without a source) that the distinction of Marshal of France was not stripped due to it being granted as an Act of Parliament, and thus stripping it was outside of the jurisdiction of the court. Further down in this article, under his list of honors, "Marshal of France" is listed saying both that it was his sole award that was retained after his treason conviction, but that it was also withdrawn following his treason conviction. This doesn't make sense unless there is supposed to be more color indicating that Parliament had stripped him of this title.
I don't have access to the source that is cited by this article to confirm that it supports the claim that the title was stripped from him after his conviction, so I'm not going to make any changes to this article. But if anybody has access to that source, could they review it and adjust this article if necessary? At the very least, the listing of awards at the bottom should be more clear about whether or not he retained the distinction of Marshal of France. Ovenel ( talk) 04:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
|reason=
param linking the other, and very briefly stating the disagreement, and with param |1=
of the {{
dubious}} tag pointing to this discussion. (If they're not in disagreement, then obviously just fix the wrong one.)
Mathglot (
talk)
18:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)Par ces motifs,
Condamne Pétain à la peine de mort, à l'indignité nationale, à la confiscation de ses biens.
Tenant compte du grand âge de l'accusé, la Haute Cour de justice émet le voeu que la condamnation à mort ne pas exécutée.
The question of whether Pétain was or wasn't stripped of his "Maréchal de France" has been the object of slow edit-warring for at least several months. At 23:36 on 24 May 2023
Le Petit Chat attempted to settle this question by adding
this cairn.info url in rev.
1156852454 referring to the Varaut (1995) article, but the warring has continued, because the Varaut article on cairn requires university or other access. Le Petit Chat, can you please access the cairn resource again, and add a |quote=
param to the footnote in section
§ Trial in High Court, right after the words, "...including the distinction of Marshal of France", which supports your edit that he was stripped of "Marshal of France" ? Thanks,
Mathglot (
talk)
20:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
[copied from a User talk page]
Someone added "and statesman" to this lede paragraph:
Henri Philippe Benoni Omer Pétain ( /peɪˈtæ̃/, French: [filip petɛ̃]); 24 April 1856 – 23 July 1951) was a French military officer and statesman who commanded the French Army in World War I and became the head of the collaborationist regime of Vichy France, from 1940 to 1944, during World War II.
Philippe Pétain was more than a military officer, but — unless "statesman" is generic and non-judgemental in Wikipedia (is Hitler or Stalin or Mussolini or Idi Amin a "statesman"?) — is there a better-focussed and less-loaded term for his rôle as Chef de l'État Français ? Or is any term needed when the lede sentence ends, "and became the head of the collaborationist regime of Vichy France" ?
@ Mathglot: @ Elinruby: —— Shakescene ( talk) 02:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
—— Shakescene ( talk) 03:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Neither this article nor Vichy France mention the sword and shield theory. This was an important analysis of Petain's behavior during Vichy, and it rates inclusion in both. Many think the theory is rubbish now, but it had enormous influence at the time. Mathglot ( talk) 01:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Philippe Pétain article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 180 days
![]() |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on July 11, 2011 and July 11, 2015. |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() |
|
![]() | The section " Exile to Sigmaringen" of this article was edited to contain a total or partial translation of Philippe Pétain from the French Wikipedia. Consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors. (This notice applies to version 971226015 and subsequent versions of this page.) |
This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 6 sections are present. |
the Dutch version has a much more complete and as far as i found out, a much better discussion, of Petains role in the First World War. If I find time I will provide a translation, though I am not a native speaker so my Duglish will need some correcting. Hugh van der Mandele, Harlingen, the Netherlands.
I removed the sentence from the world war one section that stated "His advocacy of a defensive strategy contributed to the construction of the Maginot Line." Petain was most definitely not an advocate of a defensive strategy, particularly during the interwar period. He imagined an initial "soaking up" of a German attack, followed by a vigorous counterattack, and assented to the Maginot line because lack of manpower, cash, and political will made maintaining sufficient troop strength impossible. His first conception of it was a series of "lighter but unbroken prepared battlefield" (Williams, 2005). Sort of a "kill trap idea- hardly an addiction to static defence. Yet another example of this article factual difficulties.
p97dav45
19:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
We should change the lead image to this. It feels like more of a formal photograph, it’s clearer, it has better color balance, and it’s less messy around the edges. Thoughts? The Image Editor ( talk) 18:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Four articles in en-wiki including this one have the quotation, "I am, and remain morally, your leader" (example from this article in context: "he maintained in a letter to the French people that 'I am, and remain morally, your leader'."). Examples include:
All of these edits include content translated and adapted from the French article fr:Philippe Pétain, where the content containing Pétain's quotation in French was originally added 00:49, 27 August 2006 by French IP user fr:83.113.203.32 ( talk · contribs) in revision 9635959 ( diff), which included the following text:
Le 20 août 1944, le Maréchal fut enlevé et emmené contre son gré à Sigmaringen en Allemagne, où s'étaient réfugiés les dignitaires de son régime. Une fois de plus, il ne tenta pas de résister, et ne songea pas à démissionner, maintenant dans une lettre aux Français la fiction selon laquelle "je suis et demeure moralement votre chef."
This edit does not include any references, but in 2006 that was not unusual in en-wiki, and even less so in fr-wiki. In any case, I haven't been able to verify this quotation. There are three books I found that do contain the original French quotation word for word, but they date to 2018, 2019, and 2021, and there is surrounding content in those books that looks very similar to the surrounding context in the French article of 26 Aug. 2006; so much so, that either the books copied from the 2006 version of the French WP article, or the French article and the books are all based on a source earlier than 2006 that I have not been able to find in Google books or in Gallica.
Given this situation, I am removing this content from the four English articles listed. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 01:12, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
References
Le lendemain, 20 août 1944, il est emmené contre son gré par l'armée allemande à Belfort puis, le 8 septembre, à Sigmaringen dans le sud-ouest de l'Allemagne195, où s'étaient réfugiés les dignitaires de son régime. Plutôt que de démissionner, il entretient, dans une lettre aux Français la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».
Petain cede finalement a la demande allemande. Le 20 aout 1944, il est emmene contre son gre par les Nazis a Belfort puis, le 8 septembre, a Sigmaringen en Allemagne, ou se sont egalement refugie les dignataires vichyste. Plutot que se demissioner, malgre les injonctions de Laval, Petain entretient dans une lettre aux Francais la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».
Malgre les injonctions de Laval, Petain entretient dans une lettre aux Francais la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef ».
This article states that, "After his conviction, the court stripped Pétain of all military ranks and honours including the distinction of Marshal of France." However, the article for the Marshal of France indicates (without a source) that the distinction of Marshal of France was not stripped due to it being granted as an Act of Parliament, and thus stripping it was outside of the jurisdiction of the court. Further down in this article, under his list of honors, "Marshal of France" is listed saying both that it was his sole award that was retained after his treason conviction, but that it was also withdrawn following his treason conviction. This doesn't make sense unless there is supposed to be more color indicating that Parliament had stripped him of this title.
I don't have access to the source that is cited by this article to confirm that it supports the claim that the title was stripped from him after his conviction, so I'm not going to make any changes to this article. But if anybody has access to that source, could they review it and adjust this article if necessary? At the very least, the listing of awards at the bottom should be more clear about whether or not he retained the distinction of Marshal of France. Ovenel ( talk) 04:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
|reason=
param linking the other, and very briefly stating the disagreement, and with param |1=
of the {{
dubious}} tag pointing to this discussion. (If they're not in disagreement, then obviously just fix the wrong one.)
Mathglot (
talk)
18:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)Par ces motifs,
Condamne Pétain à la peine de mort, à l'indignité nationale, à la confiscation de ses biens.
Tenant compte du grand âge de l'accusé, la Haute Cour de justice émet le voeu que la condamnation à mort ne pas exécutée.
The question of whether Pétain was or wasn't stripped of his "Maréchal de France" has been the object of slow edit-warring for at least several months. At 23:36 on 24 May 2023
Le Petit Chat attempted to settle this question by adding
this cairn.info url in rev.
1156852454 referring to the Varaut (1995) article, but the warring has continued, because the Varaut article on cairn requires university or other access. Le Petit Chat, can you please access the cairn resource again, and add a |quote=
param to the footnote in section
§ Trial in High Court, right after the words, "...including the distinction of Marshal of France", which supports your edit that he was stripped of "Marshal of France" ? Thanks,
Mathglot (
talk)
20:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
[copied from a User talk page]
Someone added "and statesman" to this lede paragraph:
Henri Philippe Benoni Omer Pétain ( /peɪˈtæ̃/, French: [filip petɛ̃]); 24 April 1856 – 23 July 1951) was a French military officer and statesman who commanded the French Army in World War I and became the head of the collaborationist regime of Vichy France, from 1940 to 1944, during World War II.
Philippe Pétain was more than a military officer, but — unless "statesman" is generic and non-judgemental in Wikipedia (is Hitler or Stalin or Mussolini or Idi Amin a "statesman"?) — is there a better-focussed and less-loaded term for his rôle as Chef de l'État Français ? Or is any term needed when the lede sentence ends, "and became the head of the collaborationist regime of Vichy France" ?
@ Mathglot: @ Elinruby: —— Shakescene ( talk) 02:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
—— Shakescene ( talk) 03:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Neither this article nor Vichy France mention the sword and shield theory. This was an important analysis of Petain's behavior during Vichy, and it rates inclusion in both. Many think the theory is rubbish now, but it had enormous influence at the time. Mathglot ( talk) 01:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)