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No IBM or Mac only paragraphs. Personal computer is not an archaic term and is in evolution of usage. The history section is getting too long and maybe it needs to be moved to the history of computing articles. There are distinct Convergence movements eliminating the Desktop architecture getting personal computer functionality into the third world in Cell Phone and Laptop form. Alatari ( talk) 22:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Common usage of the term PC needs to be discussed in the Etymology section. Alatari ( talk) 00:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Was the Mac 128k the first PC, because that's what I thought, and if it was, should we add a note about that? -- WIKIBLURRR TALK 15:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a photo of an IntelliStation in an article about personal computers? The IntelliStation is a workstation, not a personal computer, as evidenced by multiple sources, including the external link in the image caption. Rilak ( talk) 11:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a mention of Apple trying to separate itself from the personal computer industry, using advertisements that portray a "Mac" as something different from a "PC"? 68.35.111.83 ( talk) 01:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
If you are going to write a concise article about the parts that make up a whole computer, you should at least include all of them. Trumpy ( talk) 17:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
All right, I spent about 2 or 3 hours early this morning making edits and adding content to this article to improve it (including many links to articles which I tested and optimized,) and Wtshymanski, in 4 edits, wiped out pretty much all of it. Beyond specifically not liking my article-improvement ideas, he or she seems to have an editing style that suggests a desire to keep the article lightweight and succinct, not deeply detailed. For example, this person removed my mention of the fact that home PCs are increasingly networked, reverting the section in question to a text which tends to imply (to those unfamiliar with PC operations) that LANs are a business thing only (which they aren't anymore.) Also, this person removed a comment previously inserted by another editor in the Video Card subsection under the Hardware section title, which read:
<!-- This section probably needs to be moved out of architecture and covered in dialogue about peripheral devices. Nothing mandates that a personal computer contains a display adapter, and there are plenty of counterexamples. -->
I did not write this comment—I didn't even read that part of the article—but I do agree with the comment. I also think it might have been better to put that comment here on the talk page, but just to delete it was certainly, in my opinion (humble enough but not super-humble), not the right thing. Anyway, now the comment is here, so maybe eventually someone will act on it.
I had added essentially two features to the article. The first was a discussion of the blurring of the definition of a PC as a machine used interactively by a single person, as many machines designed, built and sold as PCs now operate as servers, routers, or other non-interactive or multi-user computers. Are they not PCs when serving in that role? This is a legitimate question that readers may be expected to ask. The second was a paragraph I added to the introductory section which explained the alternate meaning of "PC" as in the phrase "PC vs. Mac" or the recently new Microsoft advertising slogan, "I'm a PC" which specifically refers to the machines that used to be called IBM compatible and are now sometimes called Windows/Intel machines (when they're not running Linux or something else besides Windows.)
On the first subject, Wtshymanski completely removed the section I added with the terse edit summary "revert essay," not even considering the points I raised and trying to apply them in any way to the remaining article text. He or she also removed the main point of the paragraph in the introductory section which raised this question—the point that what defines a personal computer is whether it is used, primarily, by a single person in an interactive mode. I did not write that definition, and did not question it, though I did revise the phrasing. The deletion of that definition removes the subtext for my section on "Blurring . . ." and leaves the article without any development or explanation of the definition given in its first sentence, making the article much weaker. I don't necessarily endorse the "single-user interactive" definition of a personal computer, and it was uncited, but it was reasonable and gave some sense of grasp on the boundary between personal computers and not personal computers. The statement that PCs could be used in offices as well as homes was apparently intended, in the version I originally found, to complement this definition. Now it stands alone as a simple fact. As a result, the article still lacks authority and a balanced perspective on the definition of a personal computer and the (at least potential) disagreement on that in the public at large and in actual observable usage of the term. It gives the illusion (to those who are not skeptical of unsourced statements, which admittedly most of my writing on Wikipedia is) that the definition given is the correct definition and the only one, and that defining a personal computer is not a difficult thing. In other words, it makes the concept of personal computer appear black-and-white, which it is not. In fact, how difficult it is to find agreement on this can be quickly discovered by doing a web search on the subject of the identity of the first microprocessor, first microcomputer, first home computer, or first personal computer. (I used Google for this in the past.) Most web authors who look into this in depth (and give a long, rather than a short, answer) will conclude that the answer to who/which was first depends on exactly how you define the terms. For a microprocessor, does it have to be a single chip, or does it merely have to be an LSI IC processor? Is there a cost threshold? For a home or personal computer, does it have to be able to run practical productivity programs? Does it have to have a video display? A text display? Can it merely have binary LEDs for output? The definition matters a lot, and many people and groups try to define it in a way that makes them the first to build or offer one.
I don't insist that the section is necessary, but I do insist that the points it made need be addressed and integrated—not necessarily stated, but embodied—in the article. As is, I think it is a mediocre article on the subject (albeit with a lot of potential), considering who is likely to come looking for it. About this subject of the blurred line, see also my next-to-last paragraph below (in this Talk section.)
On the second subject, the paragraph I wrote explains the meaning and derivation of the term "PC" when used in this way. Such an explanation must necessarily reference the IBM PC and IBM PC/AT, the latter of which defined IBM compatibility for a decade or more and still influences parts of the most state-of-the-art PCs (in the x86/Windows-compatible sense). You can't explain the etymology of the term PC as used to refer to IBM-compatibles and their descendants without mentioning the IBM AT. (The interrupt and DMA controllers in any PC chipset are compatible with the chips IBM used in the AT, and are mapped to the same addresses. The PS/2 style keyboard interface is actually the IBM AT keyboard interface with only the DIN-5 connector changed to a mini-DIN connector. Even USB keyboards use the IBM AT scan codes. VGA compatibility is the baseline of video compatibility—every video adapter supports VGA 320x200 256-color mode—and derives from the early VGA cards which were built for the AT bus and would work in an original IBM AT. The BIOS comes from the IBM AT, and eve though modern operating systems don't use the BIOS while running, it is still used every time a PC boots.) As I wrote in the deleted paragraph, an Intel x86 processor is in PCs (of this sense) today because IBM chose Intel x86 CPUs for the PC and the PC/AT. In fact, going further, that's probably the only reason the x86 CPU family is still around at all in PCs, even in Macs, because most programmers seem to hate it (outside of 386 protected mode.) (I'm one of the few that doesn't think the Intel real mode segmented architecture makes no sense; but I digress.)
The fundamental question is, "What defines a PC?" and it requires an authoritative answer. It could be the manner of use, it could be design, or it could be the software it runs. I don't know. I can't authoritatively answer, but I did insert a {{fact}} tag to call for a citation on the definition given in the first paragraph. Wtshymanski removed the tag without comment, suggesting an opinion that the article doesn't need any auhtority to back its definition of the term "Personal Computer."
I strongly argue that the definition of a personal computer is disputable, and that any definition for the term put forth in this article must have a cited source, preferably two or more sources. It appears to me—I will happily be corrected if I am wrong—that few people have considered the problem of whether a "computer" by definition includes software or not, and if so how much of the software is part of the computer. This becomes a tricky issue particularly as more and more components and peripherals that used to be pure hardware are now being implemented in or with software; modems or all kinds (not just POTS telephone modems) and printers are the most obvious examples, but video cards, hard disks, etc. are also much more dependent on a software (firmware) component than they originally were, and thanks to Flash ROM, "firmware" has become much less firm—vendors routinely offer firmware upgrades on their web sites and now are much more willing to ship hardware products with buggy firmware knowing they can fix it after they sell it, if enough demand exists, via this mechanism (in a manner similar to what Microsoft has done with Windows for decades.) Further, unlike the early days of the PC, when a lot of software was boot software (either including its own operating system or requiring no operating system, depending on perspective.)
As you can see, I want to have a certain amount of mathematical precision about this. I perceive that Wtshymanski does not. He or she seems willing to ignore and gloss over the finer points of the subject in order to address the interests of readers who want to know about modern PCs, not about the concept and term "personal computer" generally, past, present, and perhaps future. What does the community of Wikipedians think? I could find and cite numerous Wikipedia articles that use my academic approach, and numerous others that are vague, general, and easy to read (but do not give the reader in-depth understanding of the subject) like Wtshymanski seems inclined to keep this article. The difference can be analogized to that of World Book vs. Britannica. (In grade school and even high school, I always went for World Book, because the teachers accepted it and it was easy to read, understand, and cite. Now I have no use for it, and in fact I'm thinking of buying a CD-ROM copy of Britannica, rather than rely on the library or an Internet connection. In fact, if affordable, a paper book set would be nice. Ah, some day, when I have space.) It's certainly not my place to declare which one Wikipedia should be: this is a democratic project, and it's going to be what most of us want it to be. What is that?
As you may sense, I'm getting frustrated. In part, it's my fault. I shouldn't have worked so much, particularly on making appropriate links in my last edit, until I knew how my content edits would be received. That could have saved me a lot of frustration. But I probably wouldn't have gotten back to do more later, so . . . 6 of one, half a dozen . . . .
If the material about the etymology of "PC" as refers to IBM-derived personal computers would be more appropriate in the "IBM Personal Computer" article, with merely a mention here of that meaning and a referral of the reader to that article, then that's fine with me. I'm much more concerned with what information Wikipedia presents and what understanding readers get than with the structure of the information, as long as readers who want to know something can find the relevant text. I also realize that the section on "Blurring . . ." that I had added is far from perfect; I expected other editors to mercilessly edit it into a much better, and perhaps much shorter, form. (Or maybe longer, though probably not.) It is possible that some of this belongs in the "Computer" article, but I couldn't edit that, because it's protected. So in part, putting the paragraph about [what does a computer include: operator, hardware, software] in this article was a compromise. The subject belongs somewhere, and if no one can find a source for the questions and the answers, then that would only show a severe limitation of Wikipedia, that it can't address or raise obvious problems and questions because they have not been previously published. I'm not attacking the encyclopedia, I'm just pointing out a consequence of a certain interpretation of the rules, which is relevant to the application of the "there are no rules" rule. Most articles in Wikipedia are under-cited, but it doesn't get their useful content instantly deleted; that would make the encyclopedia very spotty in coverage. I hope that when I add unsourced content, if it is valuable someone will add citations to it. I also expect, like all Wikipedia editors should, that some of what I add will be vetoed, but I don't expect everything I do in a long editing session to be bluntly and unceremoniously reverted without discussion. I wouldn't do that myself, to any other editor. I assume good will and try to realize the constructive intent of that good will.
Does anyone care to comment, for my benefit, on the Wikipedia policy about the use of basic (formal) logic and the raising of problems or questions in an article's subject area that are obvious but perhaps cannot be cited to a source? I note that many sources, for example most textbooks, do not spell out every detailed step of a thought process but expect the reader to apply some basic thought to reach the same obvious conclusion that the author is thinking of. The relevance of this is that it is a basic, obvious conclusion to anyone working with PCs in our world that some people say PC and mean the hardware, and some people say PC and mean the system of hardware, and all software including applications and data, and some use the term with a line drawn in between. (By basic logic, you can't say "PC and software" without implying that the software is not part of the PC, and you can't say "Please fix my PC" and then explain that your web browser keeps hanging without implying that the browser software is part of the PC. And anyone who has even helped neighbors or relatives with their computers, let alone worked in IT (as I have) has probably witnessed both of these perspectives on the part of users. So the problem undeniably exists, and not to raise it is to lead readers into a false sense of understanding of a complex subject, which may be worse than a profound sense of no understanding; it may even be dangerous. ("A little bit of information is a dangerous thing.")
I'm not going to revert Wtshymanski's changes to my edits and start an edit war. Instead, I've written this. It's very long, and I hope some editors will actually read it and do something about it, something other than ignore it and the dispute. I'm not going to pursue it, because I have other work to do. But I'll be around on Wikipedia generally, I'll look for responses and opportunities for fruitful discussion, and I'll try not to let my DSL router pull a new dynamic IP. 71.242.43.9 ( talk) 22:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Can a pc manufacturing section be included. These include a brief description of the basic methods on how pcb-boards (or alternatives as strip-board, ...) can be made. Also mention the Synthetic biology-technique. According to Angela Belcher of the MIT, PCB's can be made using biological organisms. Please include in article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.181.52 ( talk) 07:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I believe if you are going to mention one company, to lessen bias you need to at least make mention of IBM? Or first use of "Personal Computer = PC". I think it was the 5150 and earlier 5100. Please see this external article. (And also Atari/Commodore/Zenith/etc later). Apple wasn't a small part, but mention of others is the right thing to do.
Anyway, I thought Apple was no longer a "PC" anymore? haha - I guess they can't say "Windows" on the commercials.
Regardless, whoever came up with that intro History paragraph needs to fix it. I would if I had extra time right now.
-- Brady M. Shea ( talk) 01:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
what would one call the original PC standard? As far as I know it was based on the IBM architecture, and intel x86 processor based. What was the industry term/definition of the original IBM architecture? so the term would perhaps be be intel based IBM nn architecture? XT/AT? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.3.220 ( talk) 04:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
A serious problem has arisen with the reference that is being used to support the OS market share figures. Net Applications, the organization that collects and analyzes the data presented at marketshare.com, changed their methodology in August 2009, resulting in drastic revisions to their reported market shares for Windows, Mac OS, etc.
Here's the purported explanation. Formerly, Net Applications' percentages of OS users were based on which OS a browser reported whenever anyone hit a link at one of their clients' websites. Their clients are mostly in the US, so Internet users in the US (along with their OSes of choice) were arguably overrepresented. Now, Net Applications has decided to weight the raw counts by country, in direct proportion to how many Internet users that country is presumed to have (according to US CIA estimates). Under the new methodology, a hit coming from China becomes much more significant because the user is assumed to represent a larger number of Chinese OSs, browsers, etc.
Net Applications furthermore opted to apply these changes to all historical data posted on their website. As a consequence, the Wikipedia article now appears to distort its referenced source rather badly. For example, under the new methodology, Apple's market share has suddenly plunged from around 10% (the figure cited in the article) to around 5%.
For further details, see Country Level Weighting at marketshare.com and the following blog entry:
Dynamitecow ( talk) 14:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC) (sorry, forgot to add my signature initially)
Given that this article claims to be about personal computers in general, shouldn't its History section mention the Xerox Alto? The Alto had an enormous influence on today's personal computers and their software. Its inventors received the 2004 Charles Stark Draper Prize, for "the vision, conception, and development of the first practical networked personal computers."
I'd be willing to write paragraph to get things going.
Sosayso —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sosayso ( talk • contribs) 11:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
what would the number-one alternative to a PC be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.178.227.26 ( talk) 02:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
This dif was uncivil in unlinking terms. Wikipedia is used by a myriad of individuals. Not all speak English or have the same knowledge level. If a child wandering the internet were to stumble across Wikipedia, he/she might not know what a million is. Wikilinks provide instaneous knowledge because the provide an easy way to see what an internal hyperlinked word means. Please keep that in mind with all the edits for as per the talkheader, they should be meant to improve the article. -- Morenooso ( talk) 20:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I would't include Engelbart to the article of personal computer. This is because he was actually in the "mainframe computer camp"against what the PC was designed for. The idea of the PC was to bring the computing power for all individuals instead of forcing people to use "untrusted" government agencies and universities to give them computing from their mainframe computers.
There is also typo in the the Engelbart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.27.37.171 ( talk) 15:59, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Moved topics that have been dormant for about a year to Talk:Personal computer/Archive 3,which has discussions on "what is a personal computer", "mac vs. pc", the illustration, and various other good stuff that we haven't been talking about for a while. -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 02:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
More stuff moved out that we're not talking about much in the last few weeks. Discussions about what should be in this article,linking, Englebart, manufacturing, an enormous section that I cannot summarize, and the ongoing debate about Mac (brand name) is not PC(brand name), even though they are all pc (personal computers). -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 16:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Umm, I don't see what's notable about the card slots in the IBM PC. It's not like they were unique to the PC - minicomputers had slots, the contemporary Apple II had slots, S100 computers had slots, so for marketing reasons the PC had to compete with that. It wasn't even an outstandingly good implementation of a bus, it was really a hacked-together extension of the 8088 pinout that needed multiple revisions vover the years. I'm not sure that assigning the blame for the PC slots to one individual is fair. Someone who was about to define a standard that still haunts us 30 years later would probably have spent more thought on the bus than "Hey, we've got a warehouse full of Datamaster card edge connectors, let's see what we can re-use for this one while we work on the PS/2 concept." -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 15:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I've asked for the subject article (which I'm still adding to bit by bit) to be Peer Reviewed for both direction and hopefully Featured List status. Please comment? Simesa ( talk) 11:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Reminder to whoever it is who wrote this:
Other computer archetectures exist. The majority of the world ignored the IBM standard until doom came out, and only really paid attention when windows 95 launched. Only dumbass americans would pay so much for so little. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.35.60 ( talk) 16:40, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
The first source, [1] '"OS Statistics". W3 Schools. Retrieved 4 March 2011.' is used to support a claim about operating systems in common use. However, the data refer to visitors to the W3 schools website, and not to a representative sample of PC users. An alternative source that uses a representative sample, e.g. Net Applications: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8 , should be used instead. Shalineth ( talk) 19:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
"its advertising" is damn weak... They've had 6 billion downloads, its definitely worthy of inclusion if you are going to mention the other stuff at all. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:46, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
The text (which I will restore after this edit) does not speak of software distribution methods. It speaks about controlling the availability of executable code through a centralized authority (or a non-user-related, "third party" as another user corrected it). The Windows Marketplace/Market Place, for example, is not such an authority because you can still run software on a personal computer running Windows without their approval while you can't run software on an iOS device without Apple's approval. You are mistaken that the mainframe sentence speaks about hardware; smart terminals or domain workstations are controlled by mainframes or domain controllers by software. The entry is therefore not about "application stores" but about the very successful Apple Appstore and helps Wikipedia readers understand the Personal Computer definition using updated examples. Vyx ( talk) 18:43, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Who is the first person to actually use the term "personal computer", and is a cite available?
I was just reading InfoWorld Feb 18, 1980, and see this on page 5:
Link: http://books.google.com/books?id=aj4EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PT4
DMahalko ( talk) 20:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the claim about the Sphere 1 being the first personal computer—and indeed, any reference to it at all. There were no citations in this article regarding the device, and only one reference within its own article (besides a link to the company's own website) which in no way suggests that it was the first PC. What the article actually said was:
The next year, the journalist wrote a brief followup:
-- Xiaphias ( talk) 20:33, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
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Wtshymanski, the justification for removing my contribution to history of PC on Olivetti sounds very POV. I am sure you could elaborate further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.203.232.5 (talk) 15:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
And? Programmable calculators have a long and interesting history of their own, I'm sure, but what has that to do with personal computers? --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:08, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Your justification for discarding my contribution to the history of PC is not clear to me. Can you elaborate further. In the Italian version of the same page ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer), wikipedia seems to agree with me. Do wikipedia standards differ according to the language in which an entry is written? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.48.0.195 (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a reference for Wikipedia. I can't read Italian and I don't edit the Italian Wikipedia. There's no need to rehash the history of programmable calculators when discussing personal computers. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, if consistency is not a priority for wikipedia any information it contains can be either true or false. Inconsistency should be seen as an enemy as much as a POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.48.0.195 (talk) 19:00, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
But why should you care? Wikipedia watchdogs focus more on their veto power than the quality of product they look after. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.227.215.155 ( talk) 08:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
I think "leathal blow" is a bit of hyperbole; Intel seems to still make a good buck. And I guess AMD is an alternative to Intel in the sense that Pepsi is an alternative to Coke - but there may be other beverages. -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 13:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
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I've removed the following non-free files from this article:
My reasons for doing so are this:
Non-free content must be strongly justified. We can't just slap a rationale on it, and say it's ok to use it. There has to be a strong reason why we must use it in order to be encyclopedic. That is clearly not the case here. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 13:56, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
The gaming computer subsection is in need of a revamp by someone knowledgeable on the topic. It seems to be written as a personal opinion article, and is rather low quality. Could someone confident with their writing abilities and familiar with the subject please take a look? HMman ( talk) 22:45, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
There are too many images of PC compatibles (derived from the IBM PC). Please note that personal computer is a general name for a desktop computer, so it just doesn't refer to a typical Windows (or even Linux) PC. Apple should be covered in the images as well as older desktop computers from the '70s, '80s and '90s which had their own architectures and operating systems. SpeakFree (talk)( contribs) 19:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
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Footnote 24 ^ Tablets, smartphones to outsell PCs http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110210/tc_afp/itinternettelecomequipmentmobileconsumerproduct is a dead link Jdrudolp ( talk) 02:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
No IBM or Mac only paragraphs. Personal computer is not an archaic term and is in evolution of usage. The history section is getting too long and maybe it needs to be moved to the history of computing articles. There are distinct Convergence movements eliminating the Desktop architecture getting personal computer functionality into the third world in Cell Phone and Laptop form. Alatari ( talk) 22:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Common usage of the term PC needs to be discussed in the Etymology section. Alatari ( talk) 00:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Was the Mac 128k the first PC, because that's what I thought, and if it was, should we add a note about that? -- WIKIBLURRR TALK 15:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a photo of an IntelliStation in an article about personal computers? The IntelliStation is a workstation, not a personal computer, as evidenced by multiple sources, including the external link in the image caption. Rilak ( talk) 11:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a mention of Apple trying to separate itself from the personal computer industry, using advertisements that portray a "Mac" as something different from a "PC"? 68.35.111.83 ( talk) 01:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
If you are going to write a concise article about the parts that make up a whole computer, you should at least include all of them. Trumpy ( talk) 17:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
All right, I spent about 2 or 3 hours early this morning making edits and adding content to this article to improve it (including many links to articles which I tested and optimized,) and Wtshymanski, in 4 edits, wiped out pretty much all of it. Beyond specifically not liking my article-improvement ideas, he or she seems to have an editing style that suggests a desire to keep the article lightweight and succinct, not deeply detailed. For example, this person removed my mention of the fact that home PCs are increasingly networked, reverting the section in question to a text which tends to imply (to those unfamiliar with PC operations) that LANs are a business thing only (which they aren't anymore.) Also, this person removed a comment previously inserted by another editor in the Video Card subsection under the Hardware section title, which read:
<!-- This section probably needs to be moved out of architecture and covered in dialogue about peripheral devices. Nothing mandates that a personal computer contains a display adapter, and there are plenty of counterexamples. -->
I did not write this comment—I didn't even read that part of the article—but I do agree with the comment. I also think it might have been better to put that comment here on the talk page, but just to delete it was certainly, in my opinion (humble enough but not super-humble), not the right thing. Anyway, now the comment is here, so maybe eventually someone will act on it.
I had added essentially two features to the article. The first was a discussion of the blurring of the definition of a PC as a machine used interactively by a single person, as many machines designed, built and sold as PCs now operate as servers, routers, or other non-interactive or multi-user computers. Are they not PCs when serving in that role? This is a legitimate question that readers may be expected to ask. The second was a paragraph I added to the introductory section which explained the alternate meaning of "PC" as in the phrase "PC vs. Mac" or the recently new Microsoft advertising slogan, "I'm a PC" which specifically refers to the machines that used to be called IBM compatible and are now sometimes called Windows/Intel machines (when they're not running Linux or something else besides Windows.)
On the first subject, Wtshymanski completely removed the section I added with the terse edit summary "revert essay," not even considering the points I raised and trying to apply them in any way to the remaining article text. He or she also removed the main point of the paragraph in the introductory section which raised this question—the point that what defines a personal computer is whether it is used, primarily, by a single person in an interactive mode. I did not write that definition, and did not question it, though I did revise the phrasing. The deletion of that definition removes the subtext for my section on "Blurring . . ." and leaves the article without any development or explanation of the definition given in its first sentence, making the article much weaker. I don't necessarily endorse the "single-user interactive" definition of a personal computer, and it was uncited, but it was reasonable and gave some sense of grasp on the boundary between personal computers and not personal computers. The statement that PCs could be used in offices as well as homes was apparently intended, in the version I originally found, to complement this definition. Now it stands alone as a simple fact. As a result, the article still lacks authority and a balanced perspective on the definition of a personal computer and the (at least potential) disagreement on that in the public at large and in actual observable usage of the term. It gives the illusion (to those who are not skeptical of unsourced statements, which admittedly most of my writing on Wikipedia is) that the definition given is the correct definition and the only one, and that defining a personal computer is not a difficult thing. In other words, it makes the concept of personal computer appear black-and-white, which it is not. In fact, how difficult it is to find agreement on this can be quickly discovered by doing a web search on the subject of the identity of the first microprocessor, first microcomputer, first home computer, or first personal computer. (I used Google for this in the past.) Most web authors who look into this in depth (and give a long, rather than a short, answer) will conclude that the answer to who/which was first depends on exactly how you define the terms. For a microprocessor, does it have to be a single chip, or does it merely have to be an LSI IC processor? Is there a cost threshold? For a home or personal computer, does it have to be able to run practical productivity programs? Does it have to have a video display? A text display? Can it merely have binary LEDs for output? The definition matters a lot, and many people and groups try to define it in a way that makes them the first to build or offer one.
I don't insist that the section is necessary, but I do insist that the points it made need be addressed and integrated—not necessarily stated, but embodied—in the article. As is, I think it is a mediocre article on the subject (albeit with a lot of potential), considering who is likely to come looking for it. About this subject of the blurred line, see also my next-to-last paragraph below (in this Talk section.)
On the second subject, the paragraph I wrote explains the meaning and derivation of the term "PC" when used in this way. Such an explanation must necessarily reference the IBM PC and IBM PC/AT, the latter of which defined IBM compatibility for a decade or more and still influences parts of the most state-of-the-art PCs (in the x86/Windows-compatible sense). You can't explain the etymology of the term PC as used to refer to IBM-compatibles and their descendants without mentioning the IBM AT. (The interrupt and DMA controllers in any PC chipset are compatible with the chips IBM used in the AT, and are mapped to the same addresses. The PS/2 style keyboard interface is actually the IBM AT keyboard interface with only the DIN-5 connector changed to a mini-DIN connector. Even USB keyboards use the IBM AT scan codes. VGA compatibility is the baseline of video compatibility—every video adapter supports VGA 320x200 256-color mode—and derives from the early VGA cards which were built for the AT bus and would work in an original IBM AT. The BIOS comes from the IBM AT, and eve though modern operating systems don't use the BIOS while running, it is still used every time a PC boots.) As I wrote in the deleted paragraph, an Intel x86 processor is in PCs (of this sense) today because IBM chose Intel x86 CPUs for the PC and the PC/AT. In fact, going further, that's probably the only reason the x86 CPU family is still around at all in PCs, even in Macs, because most programmers seem to hate it (outside of 386 protected mode.) (I'm one of the few that doesn't think the Intel real mode segmented architecture makes no sense; but I digress.)
The fundamental question is, "What defines a PC?" and it requires an authoritative answer. It could be the manner of use, it could be design, or it could be the software it runs. I don't know. I can't authoritatively answer, but I did insert a {{fact}} tag to call for a citation on the definition given in the first paragraph. Wtshymanski removed the tag without comment, suggesting an opinion that the article doesn't need any auhtority to back its definition of the term "Personal Computer."
I strongly argue that the definition of a personal computer is disputable, and that any definition for the term put forth in this article must have a cited source, preferably two or more sources. It appears to me—I will happily be corrected if I am wrong—that few people have considered the problem of whether a "computer" by definition includes software or not, and if so how much of the software is part of the computer. This becomes a tricky issue particularly as more and more components and peripherals that used to be pure hardware are now being implemented in or with software; modems or all kinds (not just POTS telephone modems) and printers are the most obvious examples, but video cards, hard disks, etc. are also much more dependent on a software (firmware) component than they originally were, and thanks to Flash ROM, "firmware" has become much less firm—vendors routinely offer firmware upgrades on their web sites and now are much more willing to ship hardware products with buggy firmware knowing they can fix it after they sell it, if enough demand exists, via this mechanism (in a manner similar to what Microsoft has done with Windows for decades.) Further, unlike the early days of the PC, when a lot of software was boot software (either including its own operating system or requiring no operating system, depending on perspective.)
As you can see, I want to have a certain amount of mathematical precision about this. I perceive that Wtshymanski does not. He or she seems willing to ignore and gloss over the finer points of the subject in order to address the interests of readers who want to know about modern PCs, not about the concept and term "personal computer" generally, past, present, and perhaps future. What does the community of Wikipedians think? I could find and cite numerous Wikipedia articles that use my academic approach, and numerous others that are vague, general, and easy to read (but do not give the reader in-depth understanding of the subject) like Wtshymanski seems inclined to keep this article. The difference can be analogized to that of World Book vs. Britannica. (In grade school and even high school, I always went for World Book, because the teachers accepted it and it was easy to read, understand, and cite. Now I have no use for it, and in fact I'm thinking of buying a CD-ROM copy of Britannica, rather than rely on the library or an Internet connection. In fact, if affordable, a paper book set would be nice. Ah, some day, when I have space.) It's certainly not my place to declare which one Wikipedia should be: this is a democratic project, and it's going to be what most of us want it to be. What is that?
As you may sense, I'm getting frustrated. In part, it's my fault. I shouldn't have worked so much, particularly on making appropriate links in my last edit, until I knew how my content edits would be received. That could have saved me a lot of frustration. But I probably wouldn't have gotten back to do more later, so . . . 6 of one, half a dozen . . . .
If the material about the etymology of "PC" as refers to IBM-derived personal computers would be more appropriate in the "IBM Personal Computer" article, with merely a mention here of that meaning and a referral of the reader to that article, then that's fine with me. I'm much more concerned with what information Wikipedia presents and what understanding readers get than with the structure of the information, as long as readers who want to know something can find the relevant text. I also realize that the section on "Blurring . . ." that I had added is far from perfect; I expected other editors to mercilessly edit it into a much better, and perhaps much shorter, form. (Or maybe longer, though probably not.) It is possible that some of this belongs in the "Computer" article, but I couldn't edit that, because it's protected. So in part, putting the paragraph about [what does a computer include: operator, hardware, software] in this article was a compromise. The subject belongs somewhere, and if no one can find a source for the questions and the answers, then that would only show a severe limitation of Wikipedia, that it can't address or raise obvious problems and questions because they have not been previously published. I'm not attacking the encyclopedia, I'm just pointing out a consequence of a certain interpretation of the rules, which is relevant to the application of the "there are no rules" rule. Most articles in Wikipedia are under-cited, but it doesn't get their useful content instantly deleted; that would make the encyclopedia very spotty in coverage. I hope that when I add unsourced content, if it is valuable someone will add citations to it. I also expect, like all Wikipedia editors should, that some of what I add will be vetoed, but I don't expect everything I do in a long editing session to be bluntly and unceremoniously reverted without discussion. I wouldn't do that myself, to any other editor. I assume good will and try to realize the constructive intent of that good will.
Does anyone care to comment, for my benefit, on the Wikipedia policy about the use of basic (formal) logic and the raising of problems or questions in an article's subject area that are obvious but perhaps cannot be cited to a source? I note that many sources, for example most textbooks, do not spell out every detailed step of a thought process but expect the reader to apply some basic thought to reach the same obvious conclusion that the author is thinking of. The relevance of this is that it is a basic, obvious conclusion to anyone working with PCs in our world that some people say PC and mean the hardware, and some people say PC and mean the system of hardware, and all software including applications and data, and some use the term with a line drawn in between. (By basic logic, you can't say "PC and software" without implying that the software is not part of the PC, and you can't say "Please fix my PC" and then explain that your web browser keeps hanging without implying that the browser software is part of the PC. And anyone who has even helped neighbors or relatives with their computers, let alone worked in IT (as I have) has probably witnessed both of these perspectives on the part of users. So the problem undeniably exists, and not to raise it is to lead readers into a false sense of understanding of a complex subject, which may be worse than a profound sense of no understanding; it may even be dangerous. ("A little bit of information is a dangerous thing.")
I'm not going to revert Wtshymanski's changes to my edits and start an edit war. Instead, I've written this. It's very long, and I hope some editors will actually read it and do something about it, something other than ignore it and the dispute. I'm not going to pursue it, because I have other work to do. But I'll be around on Wikipedia generally, I'll look for responses and opportunities for fruitful discussion, and I'll try not to let my DSL router pull a new dynamic IP. 71.242.43.9 ( talk) 22:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Can a pc manufacturing section be included. These include a brief description of the basic methods on how pcb-boards (or alternatives as strip-board, ...) can be made. Also mention the Synthetic biology-technique. According to Angela Belcher of the MIT, PCB's can be made using biological organisms. Please include in article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.181.52 ( talk) 07:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I believe if you are going to mention one company, to lessen bias you need to at least make mention of IBM? Or first use of "Personal Computer = PC". I think it was the 5150 and earlier 5100. Please see this external article. (And also Atari/Commodore/Zenith/etc later). Apple wasn't a small part, but mention of others is the right thing to do.
Anyway, I thought Apple was no longer a "PC" anymore? haha - I guess they can't say "Windows" on the commercials.
Regardless, whoever came up with that intro History paragraph needs to fix it. I would if I had extra time right now.
-- Brady M. Shea ( talk) 01:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
what would one call the original PC standard? As far as I know it was based on the IBM architecture, and intel x86 processor based. What was the industry term/definition of the original IBM architecture? so the term would perhaps be be intel based IBM nn architecture? XT/AT? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.3.220 ( talk) 04:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
A serious problem has arisen with the reference that is being used to support the OS market share figures. Net Applications, the organization that collects and analyzes the data presented at marketshare.com, changed their methodology in August 2009, resulting in drastic revisions to their reported market shares for Windows, Mac OS, etc.
Here's the purported explanation. Formerly, Net Applications' percentages of OS users were based on which OS a browser reported whenever anyone hit a link at one of their clients' websites. Their clients are mostly in the US, so Internet users in the US (along with their OSes of choice) were arguably overrepresented. Now, Net Applications has decided to weight the raw counts by country, in direct proportion to how many Internet users that country is presumed to have (according to US CIA estimates). Under the new methodology, a hit coming from China becomes much more significant because the user is assumed to represent a larger number of Chinese OSs, browsers, etc.
Net Applications furthermore opted to apply these changes to all historical data posted on their website. As a consequence, the Wikipedia article now appears to distort its referenced source rather badly. For example, under the new methodology, Apple's market share has suddenly plunged from around 10% (the figure cited in the article) to around 5%.
For further details, see Country Level Weighting at marketshare.com and the following blog entry:
Dynamitecow ( talk) 14:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC) (sorry, forgot to add my signature initially)
Given that this article claims to be about personal computers in general, shouldn't its History section mention the Xerox Alto? The Alto had an enormous influence on today's personal computers and their software. Its inventors received the 2004 Charles Stark Draper Prize, for "the vision, conception, and development of the first practical networked personal computers."
I'd be willing to write paragraph to get things going.
Sosayso —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sosayso ( talk • contribs) 11:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
what would the number-one alternative to a PC be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.178.227.26 ( talk) 02:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
This dif was uncivil in unlinking terms. Wikipedia is used by a myriad of individuals. Not all speak English or have the same knowledge level. If a child wandering the internet were to stumble across Wikipedia, he/she might not know what a million is. Wikilinks provide instaneous knowledge because the provide an easy way to see what an internal hyperlinked word means. Please keep that in mind with all the edits for as per the talkheader, they should be meant to improve the article. -- Morenooso ( talk) 20:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I would't include Engelbart to the article of personal computer. This is because he was actually in the "mainframe computer camp"against what the PC was designed for. The idea of the PC was to bring the computing power for all individuals instead of forcing people to use "untrusted" government agencies and universities to give them computing from their mainframe computers.
There is also typo in the the Engelbart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.27.37.171 ( talk) 15:59, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Moved topics that have been dormant for about a year to Talk:Personal computer/Archive 3,which has discussions on "what is a personal computer", "mac vs. pc", the illustration, and various other good stuff that we haven't been talking about for a while. -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 02:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
More stuff moved out that we're not talking about much in the last few weeks. Discussions about what should be in this article,linking, Englebart, manufacturing, an enormous section that I cannot summarize, and the ongoing debate about Mac (brand name) is not PC(brand name), even though they are all pc (personal computers). -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 16:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Umm, I don't see what's notable about the card slots in the IBM PC. It's not like they were unique to the PC - minicomputers had slots, the contemporary Apple II had slots, S100 computers had slots, so for marketing reasons the PC had to compete with that. It wasn't even an outstandingly good implementation of a bus, it was really a hacked-together extension of the 8088 pinout that needed multiple revisions vover the years. I'm not sure that assigning the blame for the PC slots to one individual is fair. Someone who was about to define a standard that still haunts us 30 years later would probably have spent more thought on the bus than "Hey, we've got a warehouse full of Datamaster card edge connectors, let's see what we can re-use for this one while we work on the PS/2 concept." -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 15:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I've asked for the subject article (which I'm still adding to bit by bit) to be Peer Reviewed for both direction and hopefully Featured List status. Please comment? Simesa ( talk) 11:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Reminder to whoever it is who wrote this:
Other computer archetectures exist. The majority of the world ignored the IBM standard until doom came out, and only really paid attention when windows 95 launched. Only dumbass americans would pay so much for so little. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.35.60 ( talk) 16:40, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
The first source, [1] '"OS Statistics". W3 Schools. Retrieved 4 March 2011.' is used to support a claim about operating systems in common use. However, the data refer to visitors to the W3 schools website, and not to a representative sample of PC users. An alternative source that uses a representative sample, e.g. Net Applications: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8 , should be used instead. Shalineth ( talk) 19:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
"its advertising" is damn weak... They've had 6 billion downloads, its definitely worthy of inclusion if you are going to mention the other stuff at all. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:46, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
The text (which I will restore after this edit) does not speak of software distribution methods. It speaks about controlling the availability of executable code through a centralized authority (or a non-user-related, "third party" as another user corrected it). The Windows Marketplace/Market Place, for example, is not such an authority because you can still run software on a personal computer running Windows without their approval while you can't run software on an iOS device without Apple's approval. You are mistaken that the mainframe sentence speaks about hardware; smart terminals or domain workstations are controlled by mainframes or domain controllers by software. The entry is therefore not about "application stores" but about the very successful Apple Appstore and helps Wikipedia readers understand the Personal Computer definition using updated examples. Vyx ( talk) 18:43, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Who is the first person to actually use the term "personal computer", and is a cite available?
I was just reading InfoWorld Feb 18, 1980, and see this on page 5:
Link: http://books.google.com/books?id=aj4EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PT4
DMahalko ( talk) 20:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the claim about the Sphere 1 being the first personal computer—and indeed, any reference to it at all. There were no citations in this article regarding the device, and only one reference within its own article (besides a link to the company's own website) which in no way suggests that it was the first PC. What the article actually said was:
The next year, the journalist wrote a brief followup:
-- Xiaphias ( talk) 20:33, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
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Wtshymanski, the justification for removing my contribution to history of PC on Olivetti sounds very POV. I am sure you could elaborate further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.203.232.5 (talk) 15:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
And? Programmable calculators have a long and interesting history of their own, I'm sure, but what has that to do with personal computers? --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:08, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Your justification for discarding my contribution to the history of PC is not clear to me. Can you elaborate further. In the Italian version of the same page ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer), wikipedia seems to agree with me. Do wikipedia standards differ according to the language in which an entry is written? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.48.0.195 (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a reference for Wikipedia. I can't read Italian and I don't edit the Italian Wikipedia. There's no need to rehash the history of programmable calculators when discussing personal computers. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, if consistency is not a priority for wikipedia any information it contains can be either true or false. Inconsistency should be seen as an enemy as much as a POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.48.0.195 (talk) 19:00, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
But why should you care? Wikipedia watchdogs focus more on their veto power than the quality of product they look after. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.227.215.155 ( talk) 08:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
I think "leathal blow" is a bit of hyperbole; Intel seems to still make a good buck. And I guess AMD is an alternative to Intel in the sense that Pepsi is an alternative to Coke - but there may be other beverages. -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 13:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
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I've removed the following non-free files from this article:
My reasons for doing so are this:
Non-free content must be strongly justified. We can't just slap a rationale on it, and say it's ok to use it. There has to be a strong reason why we must use it in order to be encyclopedic. That is clearly not the case here. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 13:56, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
The gaming computer subsection is in need of a revamp by someone knowledgeable on the topic. It seems to be written as a personal opinion article, and is rather low quality. Could someone confident with their writing abilities and familiar with the subject please take a look? HMman ( talk) 22:45, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
There are too many images of PC compatibles (derived from the IBM PC). Please note that personal computer is a general name for a desktop computer, so it just doesn't refer to a typical Windows (or even Linux) PC. Apple should be covered in the images as well as older desktop computers from the '70s, '80s and '90s which had their own architectures and operating systems. SpeakFree (talk)( contribs) 19:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
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Footnote 24 ^ Tablets, smartphones to outsell PCs http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110210/tc_afp/itinternettelecomequipmentmobileconsumerproduct is a dead link Jdrudolp ( talk) 02:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)