This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Persepolis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The "unfinished" persepolis insert refers to four videos which are essentially anti-semitic rants of a person with no credibility. It says that Iranians were all massacred by Jews during the Purim and no body lived in Iran after the reign of Xerxes. This is obviously rubbish and I am removing it. Also Persepolis was not built during the time of cyrus, it was built during the reign of Darius and Xerxes —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeusAhrimanus ( talk • contribs) 23:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC) I have left the links for anyone interested to watch the videos. ~~ I have removed the 4 part videos because they all had error 404 messages. Here is a link to a videowhich shows Persepolis and the unfinished gate.
Nikosia ( talk) 18:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC) I viewed the videos. It was a documentary and it has something new to say. Everyone can see it with his/her eyes as everything is documented. You can not summarize it in two sentences. I have nothing to do with Purim, the slaughter and history of Iran after Xerxes. I just ask this question of everyone that has viewed the video completely (including you): Is Persepolis unfinished or not? Can you answer main questions proposed in the video? Engineering Association of Iran has issued an official letter according facts put forward in this video that Persepolis is unfinished.
Nikossia ( talk) 10:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC) What do you mean by "they are not science"? History is NOT a Science, it is a Theory (I hope you know the difference). Argue about facts instead of removing links. You are just preventing free flow of information.
"...The Jews are given license to “kill, destroy, and to annihilate,” not just those who did attack them, but “the entire army of any people who might attack them.” And those whom they could kill included women and children. I may be reading between the lines, but it seems the Jews were granted to kill virtually anyone they perceived to be a threat—or even a potential threat.
What I am about to say is not popular, but I believe it should be said. The Jews, from the days of Esther to the present, celebrate Purim, and thus the defeat of the “enemies of the Jews.” I think the law which permitted the Jews to kill their Persian enemies was no less a permit to practice genocide than were the German laws or principles which permitted their attempt to annihilate the Jewish race. Genocide is genocide, regardless of whether it is practiced against Jews or by Jews. I find it strangely inconsistent for Jews to fiercely protest against the brutality of the Germans and yet to celebrate the slaughter of Persians. The magnitude of these two atrocities may have been different, but the essence seems similar. The law of Mordecai made it legal for the Jews to practice the same brutality against the Persians as Haman had made legal against Jews...."
Find full article here: [1]
3/26/08 - Yeah well, you could probably ask Ahmadinejad about it and get the same sort of anti-semitic garbage for an answer. Point being, anti-semitism is anti-semitism. So cut it out. And for the record, about 50% of "history" IS science, relying on archaeology, paleontology and various other sciences in order to draw conclusions about the evidence unearthed in research and excavations, as well as from deciphering and translating texts, inscriptions, reliefs, etc. - Myrddin_Wyllt
History is NOT a science. It is based upon interpretations of so called "Historians". It is predominantly biased and not based on true facts...even ancient historians practiced false information and exaggerations regarding events during their time. Archaeology is the study and interpretation of past cultures, some aspects of it are scientific such as dating, but the entire work is concluded through both personal interpretations, common theories of the time and some scientific methods (which are subject to criticism...Carbon dating). In order to "draw conclustions", one must interpret their findings, again leading to biased results. 24.84.65.222 ( talk) 01:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The 75000 were not just Persians, but enemies in all the Persian empire, which stretched from Ethiopia to India. Still a lot of people, but not just Persians. It was not an ethnic thing. Also, the letter specifically gave them permission to kill those who attacked them. This is not genocide, but self defence. It's unfair to say "but they probably killed more, therefore they were wrong" - this is merely assumption. Btw - the bit about women and children: Some translations say they can kill the enemy, including women and children. Others say they can kill an enemy who attacks them and attacks their women and children. I'm not saying which is right, just that it's evidently unclear. 86.170.89.164 ( talk) 16:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
There are several types of Yauna in the Achaemenid Royal Inscriptions:
(1) Yaunβ in general: the same as the Greeks known as "Ionians", i.e., those living in Asia Minor. They can already be found in the Behistun Inscription, when the Persian rule had not yet reached Europe. This identification is 100% certain.
(2) Yaunβ takabarβ, the 'Greeks with shield-shaped hats'. First mentioned in DNa ( http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DNa.html ), where they are distinguished from the "normal" Yaunβ: an almost certain reference to the Macedonian sunhats.
(3 and 4) "The Yaunβ, near and across the sea": another division, for the first time found in DSe ( http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DSe.html ) and in a slightly different form in the Daiva Inscription by Xerxes (XPh: http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/XPh.html ). The obvious reading is "the Asian Yauna and the European Yauna", i.e., -again- Asian Greeks and Macedonians.
On the other hand, Persian inscriptions are fairly stereotypical, and the fact that there is a small difference between the precise wording of DSe and XPh suggests that there is a difference. Perhaps, there is a difference between the "Yauna across the sea" and the sunhat-Yaunβ. If this is correct, the Yauna across the sea must be either Cypriot Greeks (but why didn't Darius, who seems to have subdued Cyprus, mention them?) or the Thessalians, Boeotians, and Athenians - nations that Xerxes could claim to have conquered.
(5) There is a seal from the age of Xerxes ( http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/yauna_seal.jpg ) in which the great king defeats someone looking like a Yauna. It is unique, because a second man appears to have a hand in the killing, and this man looks like a Yauna. Is this the Macedonian king Alexander who helps killing a Thessalian/Boeotian/Athenian??
Such instances are extremely rare since only a handful of original Persian texts have survived.There are of references by Darius I in the Behistun Inscription to Sardis (OP Sparda), Ionia (OP Yauna) and Cappadocia (OP Katpatuka). There are also a couple of statements concerning the Greeks and their tribes in the Babylonian tablets.
Seized and burned by Alexander the Great's conquering army, shaken by uncounted earthquakes, eroded by 25 centuries of rain, fluctuating temperatures and scouring winds, Persepolis-the greatest of the royal residences of ancient Persia-is a definitive ancient ruin.
Yet, the place remains an awesomely impressive sight 2,500 years after it was built. Even today, those who step up to its gigantic terrace of 125,000 square meters and see its majestic columns are filled with a sense of awe drifting into a dream-like trance.
A dream in which one tries to visualize the beauty and dazzling splendor of Persepolitan palaces before their sad destruction.
"Persepolis Recreated" is the name of the most recent documentary film , which is available and you can view here online at this site:
This article badly needs a history section about who built it and when.. -- K a s h Talk | email 23:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I have pictures from when I visited persepolis if you need any - User: Farzon Lotfi
Farzon: If we can put a picture gallery up, it will be awesome. -- Axamir ( talk) 08:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
What is 'living rock'? Njál 15:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Think there would be no real contests about the top importance of Persepolis as a core topic on the History of Iran and as it belongs to the UNESCO list.
The article needs a coordinated work, being about daily edited with minor imports. Such work shall include a better ordered plan, developp some sections (history of the site, art & architecture, complex itself (terrace) including description and fonctionnal approach of each monument, other elements not being in the terrace (royal tombs, downtown, drains and water channels, garden, tablets). A chapter should also summarize the controversies about the site and its functions/occupations. The article is poorly sourced, notes and references should be seriously reworked.
One can have a look into the french wikipedia version to see what I mean 217.15.92.33 12:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Capitals were of stone as the basis of the columns, but the columns themselve were either of stone such as in the apadana, or wood like in the 100 columns Palace. All references and explanations are detailed in the french article wich was featured or in its spanish version, also featured. In fact, a wikitranslator could help boosting the article's quality.
This report (in Persian) is of interest. --BF 17:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The article was formerly mixed usage, recently changed to BC. This is a pre-Christian subject and I believe it should use BCE and CE. Please share your thoughts. Editor2020 ( talk) 22:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
an astoundation of 36o01 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.190.14 ( talk) 10:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Persepolis/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Rating explanations:
Think there would be no real contests about the top importance of Persepolis as a core topic on the History of Iran and as it belongs to UNESCO list. The article needs a coordinated work, being about daily edited with minor imports. Such work shall include a better ordered plan, developp some sections (history of the site, art & architecture, complex itself (terrace) including description and fonctionnal approach of each monument, other elements not being in the terrace (royal tombs, downtown, drains and water channels, garden, tablets). A chapter should also summarize the controversies about the site and its functions/occupations. The article is poorly sourced, notes and references should be seriously reworked. One can have a look into the french wikipedia version to see what I mean. 217.15.92.33 12:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 12:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 02:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
The article says "The Dutch traveler Cornelis de Bruijn visited Persepolis in 1704. He was the first westerner who made drawings of Persepolis.[16]". I just found this drawing from a 1673 French book. -- Z 17:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Nowruz Zoroastrian.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on November 24, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-11-24. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich ( talk) 07:20, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Can a mention of the Persepolis Museum be added to this article? 173.88.241.33 ( talk) 01:03, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I feel something was left out of an edit. It currently says ,wage earners were paid." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.44.159.44 ( talk) 20:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
The contributor to state this kind of ferocity is historically right. It is stated in ebraic text of jewish religion. The rivalry between the islamic republic and israel (covered by the presidents and political men of USA) in our time (after the islamic take over of 1979) is the remarkable remainder of what happened that long time ago. In iran nowdays there still some 20.000 jews mainly in good economic condition as like as bazaar ruler, bank & industry managers, even high funcionaries of the leading political or military rulers. U know well Iran that I visited 4 times with 15 days visa each. The govern of israel promise 50.000 $ for each one to transfer to holy land. To my knoledge (from a pssaran source) no one or very few accepted the israeli offer. Thanks Putojudio ( talk) 18:40, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Here and at García de Silva Figueroa's own page, it is stated that he "was the first Western traveler to link the site known in Iran as "Chehel Minar" as the site known from Classical authors as Persepolis". That seems to be wrong based on the other content already here.
I get that this is apparently blindly repeating the words of its source. I get that Odoric and Barbaro might not've actually known where they were. However, Hakluyt's account of "The fift voiage into Persia made by M. Thomas Banister, and master Geofrey Ducket, Agents for the Moscouie companie, began from England in the yeere 1568, and continuing to the yeere 1574 following. Written by P. I. from the mouth of M. Lionel Plumtree"—inexplicably misrepresented and left vague as "an English merchant" here—was either wrong (which should be noted) or had already identified the correct ruins as those of ancient Persepolis. The fact that they didn't use the name "Chehel Minar" has no bearing on the issue.
He may have been the first to transcribe the local Persian name into a modern European language, but that's an entirely different (and lesser) thing than having already correctly identified the ruins as those of Persepolis. — LlywelynII 18:22, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I suggest we change from the anno domini year structure here to CE/BCE since this is non-Christian subject matter. TY — Moops ⋠ T⋡ 14:22, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Persepolis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The "unfinished" persepolis insert refers to four videos which are essentially anti-semitic rants of a person with no credibility. It says that Iranians were all massacred by Jews during the Purim and no body lived in Iran after the reign of Xerxes. This is obviously rubbish and I am removing it. Also Persepolis was not built during the time of cyrus, it was built during the reign of Darius and Xerxes —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeusAhrimanus ( talk • contribs) 23:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC) I have left the links for anyone interested to watch the videos. ~~ I have removed the 4 part videos because they all had error 404 messages. Here is a link to a videowhich shows Persepolis and the unfinished gate.
Nikosia ( talk) 18:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC) I viewed the videos. It was a documentary and it has something new to say. Everyone can see it with his/her eyes as everything is documented. You can not summarize it in two sentences. I have nothing to do with Purim, the slaughter and history of Iran after Xerxes. I just ask this question of everyone that has viewed the video completely (including you): Is Persepolis unfinished or not? Can you answer main questions proposed in the video? Engineering Association of Iran has issued an official letter according facts put forward in this video that Persepolis is unfinished.
Nikossia ( talk) 10:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC) What do you mean by "they are not science"? History is NOT a Science, it is a Theory (I hope you know the difference). Argue about facts instead of removing links. You are just preventing free flow of information.
"...The Jews are given license to “kill, destroy, and to annihilate,” not just those who did attack them, but “the entire army of any people who might attack them.” And those whom they could kill included women and children. I may be reading between the lines, but it seems the Jews were granted to kill virtually anyone they perceived to be a threat—or even a potential threat.
What I am about to say is not popular, but I believe it should be said. The Jews, from the days of Esther to the present, celebrate Purim, and thus the defeat of the “enemies of the Jews.” I think the law which permitted the Jews to kill their Persian enemies was no less a permit to practice genocide than were the German laws or principles which permitted their attempt to annihilate the Jewish race. Genocide is genocide, regardless of whether it is practiced against Jews or by Jews. I find it strangely inconsistent for Jews to fiercely protest against the brutality of the Germans and yet to celebrate the slaughter of Persians. The magnitude of these two atrocities may have been different, but the essence seems similar. The law of Mordecai made it legal for the Jews to practice the same brutality against the Persians as Haman had made legal against Jews...."
Find full article here: [1]
3/26/08 - Yeah well, you could probably ask Ahmadinejad about it and get the same sort of anti-semitic garbage for an answer. Point being, anti-semitism is anti-semitism. So cut it out. And for the record, about 50% of "history" IS science, relying on archaeology, paleontology and various other sciences in order to draw conclusions about the evidence unearthed in research and excavations, as well as from deciphering and translating texts, inscriptions, reliefs, etc. - Myrddin_Wyllt
History is NOT a science. It is based upon interpretations of so called "Historians". It is predominantly biased and not based on true facts...even ancient historians practiced false information and exaggerations regarding events during their time. Archaeology is the study and interpretation of past cultures, some aspects of it are scientific such as dating, but the entire work is concluded through both personal interpretations, common theories of the time and some scientific methods (which are subject to criticism...Carbon dating). In order to "draw conclustions", one must interpret their findings, again leading to biased results. 24.84.65.222 ( talk) 01:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The 75000 were not just Persians, but enemies in all the Persian empire, which stretched from Ethiopia to India. Still a lot of people, but not just Persians. It was not an ethnic thing. Also, the letter specifically gave them permission to kill those who attacked them. This is not genocide, but self defence. It's unfair to say "but they probably killed more, therefore they were wrong" - this is merely assumption. Btw - the bit about women and children: Some translations say they can kill the enemy, including women and children. Others say they can kill an enemy who attacks them and attacks their women and children. I'm not saying which is right, just that it's evidently unclear. 86.170.89.164 ( talk) 16:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
There are several types of Yauna in the Achaemenid Royal Inscriptions:
(1) Yaunβ in general: the same as the Greeks known as "Ionians", i.e., those living in Asia Minor. They can already be found in the Behistun Inscription, when the Persian rule had not yet reached Europe. This identification is 100% certain.
(2) Yaunβ takabarβ, the 'Greeks with shield-shaped hats'. First mentioned in DNa ( http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DNa.html ), where they are distinguished from the "normal" Yaunβ: an almost certain reference to the Macedonian sunhats.
(3 and 4) "The Yaunβ, near and across the sea": another division, for the first time found in DSe ( http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DSe.html ) and in a slightly different form in the Daiva Inscription by Xerxes (XPh: http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/XPh.html ). The obvious reading is "the Asian Yauna and the European Yauna", i.e., -again- Asian Greeks and Macedonians.
On the other hand, Persian inscriptions are fairly stereotypical, and the fact that there is a small difference between the precise wording of DSe and XPh suggests that there is a difference. Perhaps, there is a difference between the "Yauna across the sea" and the sunhat-Yaunβ. If this is correct, the Yauna across the sea must be either Cypriot Greeks (but why didn't Darius, who seems to have subdued Cyprus, mention them?) or the Thessalians, Boeotians, and Athenians - nations that Xerxes could claim to have conquered.
(5) There is a seal from the age of Xerxes ( http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/yauna_seal.jpg ) in which the great king defeats someone looking like a Yauna. It is unique, because a second man appears to have a hand in the killing, and this man looks like a Yauna. Is this the Macedonian king Alexander who helps killing a Thessalian/Boeotian/Athenian??
Such instances are extremely rare since only a handful of original Persian texts have survived.There are of references by Darius I in the Behistun Inscription to Sardis (OP Sparda), Ionia (OP Yauna) and Cappadocia (OP Katpatuka). There are also a couple of statements concerning the Greeks and their tribes in the Babylonian tablets.
Seized and burned by Alexander the Great's conquering army, shaken by uncounted earthquakes, eroded by 25 centuries of rain, fluctuating temperatures and scouring winds, Persepolis-the greatest of the royal residences of ancient Persia-is a definitive ancient ruin.
Yet, the place remains an awesomely impressive sight 2,500 years after it was built. Even today, those who step up to its gigantic terrace of 125,000 square meters and see its majestic columns are filled with a sense of awe drifting into a dream-like trance.
A dream in which one tries to visualize the beauty and dazzling splendor of Persepolitan palaces before their sad destruction.
"Persepolis Recreated" is the name of the most recent documentary film , which is available and you can view here online at this site:
This article badly needs a history section about who built it and when.. -- K a s h Talk | email 23:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I have pictures from when I visited persepolis if you need any - User: Farzon Lotfi
Farzon: If we can put a picture gallery up, it will be awesome. -- Axamir ( talk) 08:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
What is 'living rock'? Njál 15:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Think there would be no real contests about the top importance of Persepolis as a core topic on the History of Iran and as it belongs to the UNESCO list.
The article needs a coordinated work, being about daily edited with minor imports. Such work shall include a better ordered plan, developp some sections (history of the site, art & architecture, complex itself (terrace) including description and fonctionnal approach of each monument, other elements not being in the terrace (royal tombs, downtown, drains and water channels, garden, tablets). A chapter should also summarize the controversies about the site and its functions/occupations. The article is poorly sourced, notes and references should be seriously reworked.
One can have a look into the french wikipedia version to see what I mean 217.15.92.33 12:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Capitals were of stone as the basis of the columns, but the columns themselve were either of stone such as in the apadana, or wood like in the 100 columns Palace. All references and explanations are detailed in the french article wich was featured or in its spanish version, also featured. In fact, a wikitranslator could help boosting the article's quality.
This report (in Persian) is of interest. --BF 17:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The article was formerly mixed usage, recently changed to BC. This is a pre-Christian subject and I believe it should use BCE and CE. Please share your thoughts. Editor2020 ( talk) 22:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
an astoundation of 36o01 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.190.14 ( talk) 10:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Persepolis/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Rating explanations:
Think there would be no real contests about the top importance of Persepolis as a core topic on the History of Iran and as it belongs to UNESCO list. The article needs a coordinated work, being about daily edited with minor imports. Such work shall include a better ordered plan, developp some sections (history of the site, art & architecture, complex itself (terrace) including description and fonctionnal approach of each monument, other elements not being in the terrace (royal tombs, downtown, drains and water channels, garden, tablets). A chapter should also summarize the controversies about the site and its functions/occupations. The article is poorly sourced, notes and references should be seriously reworked. One can have a look into the french wikipedia version to see what I mean. 217.15.92.33 12:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 12:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 02:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
The article says "The Dutch traveler Cornelis de Bruijn visited Persepolis in 1704. He was the first westerner who made drawings of Persepolis.[16]". I just found this drawing from a 1673 French book. -- Z 17:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Nowruz Zoroastrian.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on November 24, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-11-24. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich ( talk) 07:20, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Can a mention of the Persepolis Museum be added to this article? 173.88.241.33 ( talk) 01:03, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I feel something was left out of an edit. It currently says ,wage earners were paid." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.44.159.44 ( talk) 20:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
The contributor to state this kind of ferocity is historically right. It is stated in ebraic text of jewish religion. The rivalry between the islamic republic and israel (covered by the presidents and political men of USA) in our time (after the islamic take over of 1979) is the remarkable remainder of what happened that long time ago. In iran nowdays there still some 20.000 jews mainly in good economic condition as like as bazaar ruler, bank & industry managers, even high funcionaries of the leading political or military rulers. U know well Iran that I visited 4 times with 15 days visa each. The govern of israel promise 50.000 $ for each one to transfer to holy land. To my knoledge (from a pssaran source) no one or very few accepted the israeli offer. Thanks Putojudio ( talk) 18:40, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Here and at García de Silva Figueroa's own page, it is stated that he "was the first Western traveler to link the site known in Iran as "Chehel Minar" as the site known from Classical authors as Persepolis". That seems to be wrong based on the other content already here.
I get that this is apparently blindly repeating the words of its source. I get that Odoric and Barbaro might not've actually known where they were. However, Hakluyt's account of "The fift voiage into Persia made by M. Thomas Banister, and master Geofrey Ducket, Agents for the Moscouie companie, began from England in the yeere 1568, and continuing to the yeere 1574 following. Written by P. I. from the mouth of M. Lionel Plumtree"—inexplicably misrepresented and left vague as "an English merchant" here—was either wrong (which should be noted) or had already identified the correct ruins as those of ancient Persepolis. The fact that they didn't use the name "Chehel Minar" has no bearing on the issue.
He may have been the first to transcribe the local Persian name into a modern European language, but that's an entirely different (and lesser) thing than having already correctly identified the ruins as those of Persepolis. — LlywelynII 18:22, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I suggest we change from the anno domini year structure here to CE/BCE since this is non-Christian subject matter. TY — Moops ⋠ T⋡ 14:22, 15 December 2022 (UTC)