![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
LoveMonkey ( talk) 20:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
consensus.
What the ANON IP editor is failing to see is that if some of the sources are correct at saying that any where between 35 to 40 million people died during the atheist Soviet rule, that 20 million would be a correct estimate as to how many of that 35 to 40 million were Christian, remember that would be Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant. I would support changing the statement to make it conform to other sources as I would supporting adding other sources and figures to the passage to give people a more diverse understanding. As 80 percent of 30 million is 24 million. LoveMonkey ( talk) 13:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
I am wondering why the anonymous IP keeps posting webpages as sources thinking that the links are valid in or discrediting what some of the people used in this article say.
Not one of these meets WP:VS as far as I can tell. LoveMonkey ( talk) 20:23, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I would like to include a criticism section to the article compiled from some of the sources that the anonymous IP has provided as long as those sources can be verified as valid and credible sources. I would ask the anonymous IP to create and post here content for the section. LoveMonkey ( talk) 14:26, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The main problem I have located with the article's text is two specific claims. Neither of them reflect a scholarly consensus and both of them are based on flawed, unreliable sources. Instead of being provided with valid counter-arguments as to why I am wrong about all of this, all I have seen above is very unproductive distractions, bashing, and the stubborn insistence that we have to accept the sources simply because they've been published.
Yakovlev, but 33,382 as documented by Mozokhin. Since Yakovlev is a controversial source who has been exposed for getting the facts wrong, he cannot be trusted in a sensitive historical subject like this. 75.51.174.240 ( talk) 07:11, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
75.51.174.240 ( talk) 19:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
"Communism required the abolition of religion"- This was not the stance of marxist leninism which was stated earlier on in the article as the ideology of the soviet union. If this became the policy it is required that evidence is provided. Marxist leninism holds the oppisite that communism is required to abolish religion or let it die its natural death as Voronsky puts it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PAB1990 ( talk • contribs) 10:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Sources regarding above comment:
Voronsky: http://www.marxists.org/archive/voronsky/1918/church-state.htm "The battle against religious prejudices, against the church with its higher orders and its “shepherds,” is a primary obligation of every revolutionary socialist.
But this battle must be waged skillfully and carefully. The religious world outlook has been created over centuries and millennia. As long as there is social injustice, ignorance, and the dependence of man on the elements of nature and society, religion will exist in one form or another. The struggle must be ideological and in no instance should transgress these bounds. We communists would be philistines if we said that communism is not hostile to religion. We will never say this, for we have never been and will never be philistines and political mercenaries. But we would be committing a mass of the crudest errors if we stepped beyond the bounds of ideological battles and conflicts. People will object: and what about the separation of church and state?
The separation of church and state delivers a cruel and irreparable blow to the church which ruled under tsarism. But in essence this is merely an act of social justice. We cannot show preference to Orthodoxy over Buddhism, Catholicism, or a whole number of other religions."
Also read Bukharin Abc of communism: http://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1920/abc/11.htm
"For this reason, the mere fact of the organization and strengthening of the socialist system, will deal religion an irrecoverable blow. THE TRANSITION FROM SOCIALISM TO COMMUNISM, THE TRANSITION FROM THE SOCIETY WHICH MAKES AN END OF CAPITALISM TO THE SOCIETY WHICH IS COMPLETELY FREED FROM ALL TRACES OF CLASS DIVISION AND CLASS STRUGGLE, WILL BRING ABOUT THE NATURAL DEATH OF ALL RELIGION AND ALL SUPERSTITION.
But this must by no means be taken to imply that we can sit down at our ease, satisfied with having prophesied the decay of religion at some future date.
It is essential at the present time to wage with the utmost vigour the war against religious prejudices, for the church has now definitely become a counter-revolutionary organization, and endeavours to use its religious influence over the masses in order to marshal them for the political struggle against the dictatorship of the proletariat." RedsaidFred ( talk) 16:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
When an article is protected, editors should be extra mindful to proofread and spellcheck their changes. A word like manoeuvrabality cannot be fixed by a casual visitor. 75.210.158.226 ( talk) 16:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Fixed by reporter
User talk:Hodja Nasreddin 01:55, 6 August 2011.
75.210.158.226 (
talk)
16:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Just like the number of 20 million was not supported by neutral reliable sources it seems the number of 12 million cannot be relied upon either. All the sources are Christians with a high probability of having a stake in getting the number as high as possible. There is no dispute about the fact that a big number of Christians have died because of Soviet government policies. What has been insufficiently demonstrated is the claim that those Christians all died because of their faith. This seems highly unlikely given the fact that most of the persecution was concentrated in only two decades and that during those times most victims died for other reasons like Stalin's paranoia, ethnic "reforms", generic suppression of all who could even remotely pose a treat to power, agricultural policies etc. Many reasons besides aiming specifically at Christians. After the two decades of suppression the Orthodox Russian Church was even allowed to have sustained significant growth. To claim 12 million died as a cause of atheist/secular motives requires far better evidence than presented. This is a highly disputed claim! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.142.3.239 ( talk) 21:22, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted addition of the following text:
First the sources are certainly not reliable there are things like anonymous leaflets or selfpublished staff with sentences like: Karl Marx, a German Jew who initially embraced Christianity, but later turned to Satanism., etc. Most people killed by Bolsheviks were not killed because of their christian faith but because of their class or ethnic heritage, false accusation in espionage, etc. The total number of victims is strongly debated but probably less than 20 millions. We need a better sourcing to enter an exact number of victims, I am not sure a reliable number of victims of faith-based repressions is available, though Alex Bakharev ( talk) 04:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I believe the “Christian Martyrdom: A global demographic assessment“ reference qualifies as reliable, since its author, professor Todd M. Johnson, has expertise in religious demographics. However, according to the following books, the number has also been estimated to “12 million” (James M. Nelson), and “15-20” millions ( David Barrett, cited by David Taylor). Since it is not our job to determine the correct number, I believe it is reasonable to state that the number has been estimated to range between 12-20 millions. (Also, please note that the proposed text, does not claim that 12-20 millions were actually killed, but merely that the number of victims has been estimated at 12-20 millions.) Cody7777777 ( talk) 07:29, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
This article seems written so as to advance one point of view over another. It's few sources mostly come from same group of publications that are primarily connected to the churches and faiths involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.217.158.64 ( talk) 15:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
'advance one point of view over another' is it possible to put a case for why persecuting Christians was a good idea (I know some people in commenting on the persecution of Christians in China seem to think its a good thing as 'Christians persecuted people in the past')- like maybe having articles on the Holocaust also display NPOV and try and justify anti-semitism? Of course the sources are from Churches and faiths - they are the people who suffered.
If an editor has RS evidence that the persecutions are some kind of hoax or that the murder of millions of people by Communists was justified then by all means present it. However, we are not going to say an article is NPOV because an alternative version of events that no one is even sure exists, has not been presented. Also we are not into Fringe theories and psuedo-history here. I am removing the NPOV tag pending a more substantive complaint than maybe there is an alternative version of events. This is an encyclopedia. We don't deal with maybes and we are not going to label an article NPOV because someone doesn't like it.
This article is a complete joke. What would be for example "atheistic teachings"? Atheism is nothing more than disbelief in the existence of deities. That's all. Therefore, it cannot teach anything! Like the belief in gods, the disbelief in gods is NEUTRAL. It cannot motivate anybody to do anything, especially not to kill people. Religious and political dogmas, that obviously exist only in religions and political ideologies, is what can motivate people to oppress and kill.
At best, one may say "anti-religious Marxism", or something similar, but not "atheistic teachings". Atheism doesn't teach ANYTHING. In fact, many atheists follow religions, even Christianity! They are not incompatible.
So, this article is nothing more than a cheap attempt to make people believe that Atheism is something evil. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.113.59.210 ( talk) 13:55, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the recent problematic addition of the "Category:Persecution by atheists" from this article as inappropriate and unsupported by reliable sources. The category misleads our readers by implying that persecution was inflicted because the persecutors were atheists (people who do not believe in gods), which is nonsensical. Atheism has no goal, creed or mission; it is merely the absence of belief in deities. While reliable sources say there has been persecution by totalitarian dictators and regimes, and communist regimes, and anti-clerical movements, and some of these even maintained a stance of " state atheism", there is no causal relationship between atheism and persecution of religious individuals. We already have more appropriate and accurate categories for this kind of persecution: Category:Anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union, Category:Anti-clericalism, Category:Persecution by communists, etc. Articles asserting causal persecution by a lack of belief have been deleted in the past, and with good reason. According to the sources already cited in this article, both the antireligious persecution and the embrace of state atheism were propagated as part of the communist policies. Persecution isn't a component of atheism. Xenophrenic ( talk) 17:29, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I think the use of the word "persecution" is very charged in this context, since it is meant to elicit support for one side over the other. The article should be either renamed to Anti-Christianity in the Soviet Union or Opposition to Christianity in the Soviet Union. It should be noted that the Church in Russia was very closely supportive of Tsarist reactionary forces and so, not only did the Bolsheviks oppose Christianity because it is an unscientific and obscurantist doctrine, but because the clerics and institution were actively regarded as part of a social apparatus that was persecuting the vast majority of the Russian people by holding them in a position which was disadvantageous to social progress. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 22:59, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I am tagging you guys for Input with the page Since you have a lot of experience with this topic pre
WP:CAN
Woogie10w
Paul Siebert
C.J. Griffin
I came across this page and upon looking at the sources they mention its prison deaths Example Page 4
1921–50, Christians die in Soviet prison camps 15,000,000
1950–80, Christians die in Soviet prison camps 5,000,000
the other says up to 12 million but doesn't specify the time I deleted it and Blue linked to the Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin page. but was reverted so Instead of going Back and forth and getting Blocked like the old me. I want to do it the right way and get Input from experienced editors on the subject to see if it should be removed or just rewarded differently or not.
Especially since how could 15,000,000 million die from 1921–50 when the General historical Consensus is around 1 million https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/ou_press/golfo-alexopoulos-illness-and-inhumanity-in-stalin-s-gulag-i363rKPYOp
New studies using declassified Gulag archives have provisionally established a consensus on mortality and "inhumanity." The tentative consensus says that once secret records of the Gulag administration in Moscow show a lower death toll than expected from memoir sources, generally between 1.5 and 1.7 million (out of 18 million who passed through) for the years from 1930 to 1953.
Steven Rosefielde. Red Holocaust page 67 and page 77
more complete archival data increases camp deaths by 19.4 percent to 1,258,537" The best archivally based estimate of Gulag excess deaths at present is 1.6 million from 1929 to 1953."
Jack90s15 (
talk)
02:35, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Robert Conquest(2007) The Great Terror: A Reassessment, 40th Anniversary Edition, Oxford University Press, in Preface, p. xvi: "Exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, but the total of deaths caused by the whole range of Soviet regime's terrors can hardly be lower than some fifteen million."
Jack90s15 (
talk)
02:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
https://books.google.com/books?id=ubXQSk2qfXMC&pg=PR16&dq=Exact+numbers+may+never+be+known+with+complete+certainty,+but+the+total+of+deaths+caused+by+the+whole+range+of+Soviet+regime%27s+terrors+can+hardly+be+lower+than+some+fifteen+million&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir0cLakIbjAhVopVkKHfoTApYQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Exact%20numbers%20may%20never%20be%20known%20with%20complete%20certainty%2C%20but%20the%20total%20of%20deaths%20caused%20by%20the%20whole%20range%20of%20Soviet%20regime's%20terrors%20can%20hardly%20be%20lower%20than%20some%20fifteen%20million&f=false
Hello
Anupam I did not remove the sources I added one and rewrote it? they are still there.I did not remove the sources the Sources they were still there when I made my edit,
I was following WP:BRD
WP:BRD states 'Similarly, if you advance a potential contribution on the article's talk page, and no response is received after a reasonable amount of time, go ahead and make your contribution. Sometimes other editors are busy, or nobody is watching the article. Either the edit will get the attention of interested editors, or you will simply improve the article
After Anupam explained to me how to do BRD that right way I am going post my new edits on the talk page they are,
a Slight rewording to (The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime varies from different estimates). Since they do vary from different sources.
and for the Source I put it was to show a breakdown of deaths for that part of the era.
what do you think ? Ramos1990 about the rewording Since its still keeping the sources, and its acknowledging the estimates vary.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle#Discuss Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.
like I said on your talk page I don't mind a compromise with this Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
(Some estimates put the total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime in The Millions)? Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
that seems like it word be a compromise for both of are concussions, Ramos1990 Since it is acknowledging the range that the Sources use. I am open to suggestions from you and if have you have a compromise also to this I am ready to listen to it. Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle#Discuss
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
LoveMonkey ( talk) 20:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
consensus.
What the ANON IP editor is failing to see is that if some of the sources are correct at saying that any where between 35 to 40 million people died during the atheist Soviet rule, that 20 million would be a correct estimate as to how many of that 35 to 40 million were Christian, remember that would be Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant. I would support changing the statement to make it conform to other sources as I would supporting adding other sources and figures to the passage to give people a more diverse understanding. As 80 percent of 30 million is 24 million. LoveMonkey ( talk) 13:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
I am wondering why the anonymous IP keeps posting webpages as sources thinking that the links are valid in or discrediting what some of the people used in this article say.
Not one of these meets WP:VS as far as I can tell. LoveMonkey ( talk) 20:23, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I would like to include a criticism section to the article compiled from some of the sources that the anonymous IP has provided as long as those sources can be verified as valid and credible sources. I would ask the anonymous IP to create and post here content for the section. LoveMonkey ( talk) 14:26, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The main problem I have located with the article's text is two specific claims. Neither of them reflect a scholarly consensus and both of them are based on flawed, unreliable sources. Instead of being provided with valid counter-arguments as to why I am wrong about all of this, all I have seen above is very unproductive distractions, bashing, and the stubborn insistence that we have to accept the sources simply because they've been published.
Yakovlev, but 33,382 as documented by Mozokhin. Since Yakovlev is a controversial source who has been exposed for getting the facts wrong, he cannot be trusted in a sensitive historical subject like this. 75.51.174.240 ( talk) 07:11, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
75.51.174.240 ( talk) 19:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
"Communism required the abolition of religion"- This was not the stance of marxist leninism which was stated earlier on in the article as the ideology of the soviet union. If this became the policy it is required that evidence is provided. Marxist leninism holds the oppisite that communism is required to abolish religion or let it die its natural death as Voronsky puts it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PAB1990 ( talk • contribs) 10:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Sources regarding above comment:
Voronsky: http://www.marxists.org/archive/voronsky/1918/church-state.htm "The battle against religious prejudices, against the church with its higher orders and its “shepherds,” is a primary obligation of every revolutionary socialist.
But this battle must be waged skillfully and carefully. The religious world outlook has been created over centuries and millennia. As long as there is social injustice, ignorance, and the dependence of man on the elements of nature and society, religion will exist in one form or another. The struggle must be ideological and in no instance should transgress these bounds. We communists would be philistines if we said that communism is not hostile to religion. We will never say this, for we have never been and will never be philistines and political mercenaries. But we would be committing a mass of the crudest errors if we stepped beyond the bounds of ideological battles and conflicts. People will object: and what about the separation of church and state?
The separation of church and state delivers a cruel and irreparable blow to the church which ruled under tsarism. But in essence this is merely an act of social justice. We cannot show preference to Orthodoxy over Buddhism, Catholicism, or a whole number of other religions."
Also read Bukharin Abc of communism: http://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1920/abc/11.htm
"For this reason, the mere fact of the organization and strengthening of the socialist system, will deal religion an irrecoverable blow. THE TRANSITION FROM SOCIALISM TO COMMUNISM, THE TRANSITION FROM THE SOCIETY WHICH MAKES AN END OF CAPITALISM TO THE SOCIETY WHICH IS COMPLETELY FREED FROM ALL TRACES OF CLASS DIVISION AND CLASS STRUGGLE, WILL BRING ABOUT THE NATURAL DEATH OF ALL RELIGION AND ALL SUPERSTITION.
But this must by no means be taken to imply that we can sit down at our ease, satisfied with having prophesied the decay of religion at some future date.
It is essential at the present time to wage with the utmost vigour the war against religious prejudices, for the church has now definitely become a counter-revolutionary organization, and endeavours to use its religious influence over the masses in order to marshal them for the political struggle against the dictatorship of the proletariat." RedsaidFred ( talk) 16:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
When an article is protected, editors should be extra mindful to proofread and spellcheck their changes. A word like manoeuvrabality cannot be fixed by a casual visitor. 75.210.158.226 ( talk) 16:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Fixed by reporter
User talk:Hodja Nasreddin 01:55, 6 August 2011.
75.210.158.226 (
talk)
16:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Just like the number of 20 million was not supported by neutral reliable sources it seems the number of 12 million cannot be relied upon either. All the sources are Christians with a high probability of having a stake in getting the number as high as possible. There is no dispute about the fact that a big number of Christians have died because of Soviet government policies. What has been insufficiently demonstrated is the claim that those Christians all died because of their faith. This seems highly unlikely given the fact that most of the persecution was concentrated in only two decades and that during those times most victims died for other reasons like Stalin's paranoia, ethnic "reforms", generic suppression of all who could even remotely pose a treat to power, agricultural policies etc. Many reasons besides aiming specifically at Christians. After the two decades of suppression the Orthodox Russian Church was even allowed to have sustained significant growth. To claim 12 million died as a cause of atheist/secular motives requires far better evidence than presented. This is a highly disputed claim! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.142.3.239 ( talk) 21:22, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted addition of the following text:
First the sources are certainly not reliable there are things like anonymous leaflets or selfpublished staff with sentences like: Karl Marx, a German Jew who initially embraced Christianity, but later turned to Satanism., etc. Most people killed by Bolsheviks were not killed because of their christian faith but because of their class or ethnic heritage, false accusation in espionage, etc. The total number of victims is strongly debated but probably less than 20 millions. We need a better sourcing to enter an exact number of victims, I am not sure a reliable number of victims of faith-based repressions is available, though Alex Bakharev ( talk) 04:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I believe the “Christian Martyrdom: A global demographic assessment“ reference qualifies as reliable, since its author, professor Todd M. Johnson, has expertise in religious demographics. However, according to the following books, the number has also been estimated to “12 million” (James M. Nelson), and “15-20” millions ( David Barrett, cited by David Taylor). Since it is not our job to determine the correct number, I believe it is reasonable to state that the number has been estimated to range between 12-20 millions. (Also, please note that the proposed text, does not claim that 12-20 millions were actually killed, but merely that the number of victims has been estimated at 12-20 millions.) Cody7777777 ( talk) 07:29, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
This article seems written so as to advance one point of view over another. It's few sources mostly come from same group of publications that are primarily connected to the churches and faiths involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.217.158.64 ( talk) 15:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
'advance one point of view over another' is it possible to put a case for why persecuting Christians was a good idea (I know some people in commenting on the persecution of Christians in China seem to think its a good thing as 'Christians persecuted people in the past')- like maybe having articles on the Holocaust also display NPOV and try and justify anti-semitism? Of course the sources are from Churches and faiths - they are the people who suffered.
If an editor has RS evidence that the persecutions are some kind of hoax or that the murder of millions of people by Communists was justified then by all means present it. However, we are not going to say an article is NPOV because an alternative version of events that no one is even sure exists, has not been presented. Also we are not into Fringe theories and psuedo-history here. I am removing the NPOV tag pending a more substantive complaint than maybe there is an alternative version of events. This is an encyclopedia. We don't deal with maybes and we are not going to label an article NPOV because someone doesn't like it.
This article is a complete joke. What would be for example "atheistic teachings"? Atheism is nothing more than disbelief in the existence of deities. That's all. Therefore, it cannot teach anything! Like the belief in gods, the disbelief in gods is NEUTRAL. It cannot motivate anybody to do anything, especially not to kill people. Religious and political dogmas, that obviously exist only in religions and political ideologies, is what can motivate people to oppress and kill.
At best, one may say "anti-religious Marxism", or something similar, but not "atheistic teachings". Atheism doesn't teach ANYTHING. In fact, many atheists follow religions, even Christianity! They are not incompatible.
So, this article is nothing more than a cheap attempt to make people believe that Atheism is something evil. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.113.59.210 ( talk) 13:55, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the recent problematic addition of the "Category:Persecution by atheists" from this article as inappropriate and unsupported by reliable sources. The category misleads our readers by implying that persecution was inflicted because the persecutors were atheists (people who do not believe in gods), which is nonsensical. Atheism has no goal, creed or mission; it is merely the absence of belief in deities. While reliable sources say there has been persecution by totalitarian dictators and regimes, and communist regimes, and anti-clerical movements, and some of these even maintained a stance of " state atheism", there is no causal relationship between atheism and persecution of religious individuals. We already have more appropriate and accurate categories for this kind of persecution: Category:Anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union, Category:Anti-clericalism, Category:Persecution by communists, etc. Articles asserting causal persecution by a lack of belief have been deleted in the past, and with good reason. According to the sources already cited in this article, both the antireligious persecution and the embrace of state atheism were propagated as part of the communist policies. Persecution isn't a component of atheism. Xenophrenic ( talk) 17:29, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I think the use of the word "persecution" is very charged in this context, since it is meant to elicit support for one side over the other. The article should be either renamed to Anti-Christianity in the Soviet Union or Opposition to Christianity in the Soviet Union. It should be noted that the Church in Russia was very closely supportive of Tsarist reactionary forces and so, not only did the Bolsheviks oppose Christianity because it is an unscientific and obscurantist doctrine, but because the clerics and institution were actively regarded as part of a social apparatus that was persecuting the vast majority of the Russian people by holding them in a position which was disadvantageous to social progress. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 22:59, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I am tagging you guys for Input with the page Since you have a lot of experience with this topic pre
WP:CAN
Woogie10w
Paul Siebert
C.J. Griffin
I came across this page and upon looking at the sources they mention its prison deaths Example Page 4
1921–50, Christians die in Soviet prison camps 15,000,000
1950–80, Christians die in Soviet prison camps 5,000,000
the other says up to 12 million but doesn't specify the time I deleted it and Blue linked to the Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin page. but was reverted so Instead of going Back and forth and getting Blocked like the old me. I want to do it the right way and get Input from experienced editors on the subject to see if it should be removed or just rewarded differently or not.
Especially since how could 15,000,000 million die from 1921–50 when the General historical Consensus is around 1 million https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/ou_press/golfo-alexopoulos-illness-and-inhumanity-in-stalin-s-gulag-i363rKPYOp
New studies using declassified Gulag archives have provisionally established a consensus on mortality and "inhumanity." The tentative consensus says that once secret records of the Gulag administration in Moscow show a lower death toll than expected from memoir sources, generally between 1.5 and 1.7 million (out of 18 million who passed through) for the years from 1930 to 1953.
Steven Rosefielde. Red Holocaust page 67 and page 77
more complete archival data increases camp deaths by 19.4 percent to 1,258,537" The best archivally based estimate of Gulag excess deaths at present is 1.6 million from 1929 to 1953."
Jack90s15 (
talk)
02:35, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Robert Conquest(2007) The Great Terror: A Reassessment, 40th Anniversary Edition, Oxford University Press, in Preface, p. xvi: "Exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, but the total of deaths caused by the whole range of Soviet regime's terrors can hardly be lower than some fifteen million."
Jack90s15 (
talk)
02:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
https://books.google.com/books?id=ubXQSk2qfXMC&pg=PR16&dq=Exact+numbers+may+never+be+known+with+complete+certainty,+but+the+total+of+deaths+caused+by+the+whole+range+of+Soviet+regime%27s+terrors+can+hardly+be+lower+than+some+fifteen+million&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir0cLakIbjAhVopVkKHfoTApYQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Exact%20numbers%20may%20never%20be%20known%20with%20complete%20certainty%2C%20but%20the%20total%20of%20deaths%20caused%20by%20the%20whole%20range%20of%20Soviet%20regime's%20terrors%20can%20hardly%20be%20lower%20than%20some%20fifteen%20million&f=false
Hello
Anupam I did not remove the sources I added one and rewrote it? they are still there.I did not remove the sources the Sources they were still there when I made my edit,
I was following WP:BRD
WP:BRD states 'Similarly, if you advance a potential contribution on the article's talk page, and no response is received after a reasonable amount of time, go ahead and make your contribution. Sometimes other editors are busy, or nobody is watching the article. Either the edit will get the attention of interested editors, or you will simply improve the article
After Anupam explained to me how to do BRD that right way I am going post my new edits on the talk page they are,
a Slight rewording to (The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime varies from different estimates). Since they do vary from different sources.
and for the Source I put it was to show a breakdown of deaths for that part of the era.
what do you think ? Ramos1990 about the rewording Since its still keeping the sources, and its acknowledging the estimates vary.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle#Discuss Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.
like I said on your talk page I don't mind a compromise with this Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
(Some estimates put the total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime in The Millions)? Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
that seems like it word be a compromise for both of are concussions, Ramos1990 Since it is acknowledging the range that the Sources use. I am open to suggestions from you and if have you have a compromise also to this I am ready to listen to it. Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle#Discuss