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Archive 1 |
i have been under the impression (mostly from the Bird bio) that he didn't so much feel anti-semetic as he felt that anglo music should use anglo markings, thus the strict maintaing of non italian based musical markings (louden as opposed to crescendo, etc). it seems that he was more of a 'to each kind there own' brand of racist than a general superiority kind. also, is a more indepth mentioning of his commitment to the folk song as performed by the native (instead of adapting to standard rhythms/markings ala Vaughn-williams) something we should address here? Cgrantmaledy 01:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC) cgrantmaledy
unless there is citation on these claims surely they should be removed?? Kunchan 23:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I restricted the claim that Grainger was the first to use Edison wax cylinders in recording folksongs, because according to de Val (2000), 357 (whom I've cited in the article), 'Eugenia Lineva had used a cylinder machine in 1897' for folksong collecting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by N p holmes ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody know the dates of the construction of Grainger's free music machines? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.107.240.1 ( talk) 22:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
This could easily be a good article if it had in-line cites and less external links.-- Grahame ( talk) 12:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The above comment was on the comments page. I copied it here. Magic ♪piano 15:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but it could really use some pictures of his machines, and audio of them, if possible. See my detailed review on the comments page. Feel free to leave comments or questions here or on my talk page. Magic ♪piano 15:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
This article titles him as a "champion of the saxophone" but never expounds on this at all other than that he played it in the Army band. I'm not saying this is not true, because I've heard that he enjoyed the instrument very much. But it'd be nice if there was more information on this. SousaFan88 ( talk) 10:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I took out that section as he wrote nothing specifically for the saxophone, although he did make various arrangements for the instrument and also for sax ensemble. But then again, he made a lot of arrangements of most of his popular works for almost every combination you could imagine! Grainger was famous for using newer instruments and he certainly must have enjoyed the saxophone, but to call him a champion of it? That seems slightly far-fetched (he did actually write a polemic 'championing' what he saw as the underrated art form of whistling - and wrote a number of pieces specifically for whisters, such as 'Ye banks and breas' and "even the famous "Country Gardens' was originally conceived for whistling! The article I believe is in the OUP collection of his writings on music). This very over-the-top statement really annoys me and I'm guessing was probably added by an adolescent saxophone player who has an immature bias towards solely their own instrument. However, it would seem Grainger himself did not share this bias. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.34.55.57 (
talk)
23:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I have been corresponding with Astrid Britt Krautschneider, the Curator, Collections and Research at the Grainger Museum, University of Melbourne (Website: www.grainger.unimelb.edu.au) who confirmed the following detail:
She also mentioned that this statement is incorrect: When Grainger was aged 11, his father left to visit London and Rose took Percy to live with her parents in Adelaide. He returned to Adelaide but did not rejoin his family.
She writes:
I will put in the changes. Ccrashh ( talk) 12:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The article refers to early public performances but doesn't specify what instrument, although piano seems likely. Later, with no reference to any intervening study of winds, he enters an Army Band as an oboist and saxophonist. It would be nice to have some idea when or how he learned these three instruments--or if he played others. By the way, I smiled at "His use of chance music in 1912 predated John Cage by forty years." I refrained from adding "...but postdated Mozart by about 130 years." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccerf ( talk • contribs) 13:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
...this is indicated by the Architects' site to have been completed in 1980, but today, in 2010, the University's site seems to indicate that renovations/conservation is still underway. Can anyone assist in clarifying this?
Maceis ( talk) 06:34, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
The article needs some serious treatment, to rescue it from the proliferation of cleanup banners and to bring it to a standard worthy of this unusually interesting composer. I have started this process by splitting off the list of works into a subarticle. Over the next few weeks there will be major additions to the text and images of the main article. Comments from interested editors will be welcome, as the expansion proceeds. Brianboulton ( talk) 23:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
I have replaced the former "References required" banners with an "Under construction" banner at the head of the article. This should remain in place until the expansion is completed. Brianboulton ( talk) 16:49, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I moderate the Culture Victoria website and considered adding a link to our material relating to the architect John Harry Grainger (Percy’s father). Is that appropriate since there is no Wikipedia article on him as such? http://www.cv.vic.gov.au/stories/john-harry-grainger/. Let me know what you think. Eleworth ( talk) 06:06, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I've just stumbled upon Grainger Studies: An Interdisciplinary Journal, a new open access peer review journal to be published annually by the University of Melbourne Library (the 2011 issue is already online). This editorial initiative seemed to me to be important enough to warrant inclusion among the External Links. MistyMorn ( talk) 12:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I've supplied a citation that provides some detail on Percy's posthumous appearance at the Proms. The related sentence currently comes at the end of the 'Legacy'. But nice as it must have been to for the prommers hear Percy play, even by proxy, I find it hard to see this event as the culmination of the man's legacy! I was wondering whether the sentence would be better located elsewhere? While writing the last sentence, the thought occurs to me that the Proms sentence might already fit under 'Recordings', given that a piano roll is, by definition, a recording format. Since that solution would have the advantage of grouping together the information about the Duo Art method and the reproduction machinery, I think I'll go back and make the move. But feel free to revert or discuss the issue. Regards -- MistyMorn ( talk) 09:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
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His atheist belief that he would only survive through his legacy is documented and explains the obsession with his own museum. I'm surprised this fact was excluded from the article. Alatari ( talk) 10:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
This is from the source:
"Percy Grainger was much obsessed with posterity. It itched at him that his reputation was made and sustained as a performer of other people's work, that his most distinctive innovations were either ignored or co-opted without acknowledgement, and that he should be remembered best for his least demanding efforts. (Mention Grainger's name now and 'Country Gardens' comes inevitably and solitarily to mind.) "Grainger took positive steps to ensure his posthumous survival. A life-long atheist, he had every basis for belief that whatever of himself would endure would be found in his work. An obsessive genealogist of style, he believed implicitly that the es sence of any work could be found in the influences brought to bear on it.
I want to get the meaning of this sentence A life-long atheist, he had every basis for belief that whatever of himself would endure would be found in his work. without plagiarizing. His work would include the museum and all it's contents and as an atheist his enduring survival was that work. So how would you fit that interpretation into the article? Alatari ( talk) 02:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Your edit is fine with me. Atheist wasn't mentioned at all before. Alatari ( talk) 21:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
As its well documented, ive added him to this category. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 04:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Some sources I saw say his full name was "George Percy Grainger", others "Percy Aldridge Grainger". Can someone straighten this out? Wondering simply, -- Infrogmation 18:40 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
-- Melias2083 06:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
The facts seems to be as follows:
I'm editing the article accordingly. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 21:59, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Percy Grainger -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 06:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
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==Composers Project Assessment of Percy Grainger: 2008-11-20==
This is an assessment of article Percy Grainger by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards ( WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== ===Summary=== This is an interesting article about a fascinating eccentric figure. His personal and musical biography is generally quite good, although specifics on some aspects are sometimes difficult to determine:
Critical and popular views of his music are generally not covered. The list of works does not appear to be complete; if a complete list is made, it should be in a separate article, as the selected set here is already too long, in my opinion. The article is poorly referenced; there is no list of reference works; and there are only a few foot notes. This is a significant barrier to successful GA review. The lead is too short; an article this length should have one of 2-3 paragraphs. While the article has an adequate number of images, it cries out for some specific media to be included, simply because the things being discussed are sufficiently odd. There should be images of his machines (which may even merit a separate article), as well as audio clips of the sounds they produced. Sample images of some of his odder time signature work would also enhance the article. This is a B-class article that has some great potential, if some of the above can be fulfilled. Magic ♪piano 15:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 13:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 02:38, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
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Percy Grainger was certainly into BDSM, but I can see nothing in the article that refers to him as being gay, bisexual or trans*. So why is he tagged and listed as a LGBT composer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.209.88 ( talk) 11:29, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
As predicted, the rather inane infobox that we currently have (that tells us nothing that the first few lines of the lead section doesn't, by the way) is being screwed around with despite their being hidden text telling people specificaly not to do so. Also, the lead image, and without no consensus whatsoever, is being changed by the same drive-by editor. I believe that such an edit goes against the version that passed FAC and should therefore be discussed here first where a consensus should be sought. Cassianto Talk 09:38, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
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In 2013, this person was described in an "identibox" on a trial basis. It was more or less stable until today. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 20:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
There are at least two overlapping edit wars going on the article page today. Everybody involved needs to stop warring and discuss here on the talk page. Remember, it is edit warring even you don't exceed three reverts in 24 hours. - Donald Albury 17:23, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
I did ask that the edit wars stop and changes be discussed back here, and yet the infobox image descriptor was reverted again. I will also note that the article clearly states that Grainger joined the United States Army during World War I as a bandsman, became a naturalized United States citizen while in the U.S. Army, and maintained his residence in the U.S. until his death, so the categorization of him as 'American' is quite appropriate. - Donald Albury 21:51, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Sometimes things can just creep in and I was wondering if the "External links" section has been reviewed lately. Eight links is a little excessive and can be considered link farming. -- Otr500 ( talk) 12:12, 7 January 2020 (UTC):
@ Gerda Arendt, Melodia, Tim riley, and Otr500: the remark '8 is too many' is indeed not helpful. As I mentioned on ELN, on some articles 3 is a linkfarm, on others 25 is a linkfarm. That being said, helpfulness is not necessarily an inclusion standard (not being helpful is an exclusion standard, though). E.g. people find having social networking on a page 'helpful', however we quite strictly exclude most of them as it simply is not Google's task to point to everything that someone might consider helpful. Just to comment (not necessarily arguments to exclude them all):
"Country Gardens": Performance by Grainger on pianola, 1919seems cherry picked, why one individual performance by the subject. Is there not a directory somewhere with multiple works (e.g. a youtube channel/playlist/collection)? (I now see that it is deemed the subject he is most known for, but also that it has an own article: Country Gardens)
Percy Grainger Americais rather unclear what it is, and un(der)presented in the article.
So there is a lot of material here where I question why they are of importance to the article though where quite some (not all) indeed do contain a lot of material that cannot be included in the article. For the material that has an own article I believe that the focus is in the text, and that material should expand on the text - the museum and Country Gardens is covered in the text and in own article and should be linked there, not here. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 08:46, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Like several other admirers of the main author of the present article, the late and painfully missed Brianboulton, I keep an eye on his FAs. The recent addition of a para on Grainger's vegetarianism seems to me proportionate. Grainger was so odd in so many ways that vegetarianism and teetotalism slip into the narrative smoothly enough. Do others who keep an eye on this page concur? Tim riley talk 17:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Someone (208.187.9.24) replaced "Australian-born" by "Australian" and removed the English references in the categories. Since Grainger moved to England when he was 13 and to the US when he was 32, I think the previous designations were fair and in fact we should add the American category (the other day the bass trombonist for my orchestra told me he had played under Grainger in a Massachusetts youth orchestra, and he had thought of PG as American). David Brooks 23:59, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
June 2006
Just to quantify this a little - adding evidence of his visits to Australia. Three visits that amount to several months. Tradimus ( talk) 14:56, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that Grainger identified as Australian? The article states Grainger felt Australia rejected him - there is evidence to suggest this is true. [5] [6] [7]
References
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cite news}}
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As the article opens with the statement that PG "was an Australian-born composer, arranger and pianist who lived in the United States from 1914 and became an American citizen in 1918" I'm not sure of the import of the above question. Tim riley talk 17:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
It is as well to remember that Percy Grainger's parentage was British, and his birth in British soverign territory, as the colonies were not federated into an Australian nation until after his birth. The program note in the score of Colonial Song|citation above alludes to such a 'provincial' or back-water impression, without stipulating any fondness for it. Perhaps the footnote is a device to authenticate and advertise the work as an curio or other-worldly souvenir. The main source from the Legacy section by Roger Covell is a book entitled with a question as to Graingers naionality. One seldom hears the term 'Australian-American', as in Pat Sullivan (film producer), but I argue this is appropriate. Tradimus ( talk) 02:15, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Why anyone would disagree that Percy Grainger was a musicologist is baffling to me. Several sources directly describe him as one, and through his work as an educator and folklorist, it's easy to see why. As mentioned in the sources below, one of Grainger's most important contributions to the field of ethnomusicology was through his use of technology (namely the phonograph) to collect folk music.
Why? I Ask ( talk) 09:36, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
i have been under the impression (mostly from the Bird bio) that he didn't so much feel anti-semetic as he felt that anglo music should use anglo markings, thus the strict maintaing of non italian based musical markings (louden as opposed to crescendo, etc). it seems that he was more of a 'to each kind there own' brand of racist than a general superiority kind. also, is a more indepth mentioning of his commitment to the folk song as performed by the native (instead of adapting to standard rhythms/markings ala Vaughn-williams) something we should address here? Cgrantmaledy 01:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC) cgrantmaledy
unless there is citation on these claims surely they should be removed?? Kunchan 23:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I restricted the claim that Grainger was the first to use Edison wax cylinders in recording folksongs, because according to de Val (2000), 357 (whom I've cited in the article), 'Eugenia Lineva had used a cylinder machine in 1897' for folksong collecting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by N p holmes ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody know the dates of the construction of Grainger's free music machines? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.107.240.1 ( talk) 22:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
This could easily be a good article if it had in-line cites and less external links.-- Grahame ( talk) 12:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The above comment was on the comments page. I copied it here. Magic ♪piano 15:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but it could really use some pictures of his machines, and audio of them, if possible. See my detailed review on the comments page. Feel free to leave comments or questions here or on my talk page. Magic ♪piano 15:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
This article titles him as a "champion of the saxophone" but never expounds on this at all other than that he played it in the Army band. I'm not saying this is not true, because I've heard that he enjoyed the instrument very much. But it'd be nice if there was more information on this. SousaFan88 ( talk) 10:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I took out that section as he wrote nothing specifically for the saxophone, although he did make various arrangements for the instrument and also for sax ensemble. But then again, he made a lot of arrangements of most of his popular works for almost every combination you could imagine! Grainger was famous for using newer instruments and he certainly must have enjoyed the saxophone, but to call him a champion of it? That seems slightly far-fetched (he did actually write a polemic 'championing' what he saw as the underrated art form of whistling - and wrote a number of pieces specifically for whisters, such as 'Ye banks and breas' and "even the famous "Country Gardens' was originally conceived for whistling! The article I believe is in the OUP collection of his writings on music). This very over-the-top statement really annoys me and I'm guessing was probably added by an adolescent saxophone player who has an immature bias towards solely their own instrument. However, it would seem Grainger himself did not share this bias. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.34.55.57 (
talk)
23:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I have been corresponding with Astrid Britt Krautschneider, the Curator, Collections and Research at the Grainger Museum, University of Melbourne (Website: www.grainger.unimelb.edu.au) who confirmed the following detail:
She also mentioned that this statement is incorrect: When Grainger was aged 11, his father left to visit London and Rose took Percy to live with her parents in Adelaide. He returned to Adelaide but did not rejoin his family.
She writes:
I will put in the changes. Ccrashh ( talk) 12:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The article refers to early public performances but doesn't specify what instrument, although piano seems likely. Later, with no reference to any intervening study of winds, he enters an Army Band as an oboist and saxophonist. It would be nice to have some idea when or how he learned these three instruments--or if he played others. By the way, I smiled at "His use of chance music in 1912 predated John Cage by forty years." I refrained from adding "...but postdated Mozart by about 130 years." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccerf ( talk • contribs) 13:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
...this is indicated by the Architects' site to have been completed in 1980, but today, in 2010, the University's site seems to indicate that renovations/conservation is still underway. Can anyone assist in clarifying this?
Maceis ( talk) 06:34, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
The article needs some serious treatment, to rescue it from the proliferation of cleanup banners and to bring it to a standard worthy of this unusually interesting composer. I have started this process by splitting off the list of works into a subarticle. Over the next few weeks there will be major additions to the text and images of the main article. Comments from interested editors will be welcome, as the expansion proceeds. Brianboulton ( talk) 23:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
I have replaced the former "References required" banners with an "Under construction" banner at the head of the article. This should remain in place until the expansion is completed. Brianboulton ( talk) 16:49, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I moderate the Culture Victoria website and considered adding a link to our material relating to the architect John Harry Grainger (Percy’s father). Is that appropriate since there is no Wikipedia article on him as such? http://www.cv.vic.gov.au/stories/john-harry-grainger/. Let me know what you think. Eleworth ( talk) 06:06, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I've just stumbled upon Grainger Studies: An Interdisciplinary Journal, a new open access peer review journal to be published annually by the University of Melbourne Library (the 2011 issue is already online). This editorial initiative seemed to me to be important enough to warrant inclusion among the External Links. MistyMorn ( talk) 12:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I've supplied a citation that provides some detail on Percy's posthumous appearance at the Proms. The related sentence currently comes at the end of the 'Legacy'. But nice as it must have been to for the prommers hear Percy play, even by proxy, I find it hard to see this event as the culmination of the man's legacy! I was wondering whether the sentence would be better located elsewhere? While writing the last sentence, the thought occurs to me that the Proms sentence might already fit under 'Recordings', given that a piano roll is, by definition, a recording format. Since that solution would have the advantage of grouping together the information about the Duo Art method and the reproduction machinery, I think I'll go back and make the move. But feel free to revert or discuss the issue. Regards -- MistyMorn ( talk) 09:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
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His atheist belief that he would only survive through his legacy is documented and explains the obsession with his own museum. I'm surprised this fact was excluded from the article. Alatari ( talk) 10:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
This is from the source:
"Percy Grainger was much obsessed with posterity. It itched at him that his reputation was made and sustained as a performer of other people's work, that his most distinctive innovations were either ignored or co-opted without acknowledgement, and that he should be remembered best for his least demanding efforts. (Mention Grainger's name now and 'Country Gardens' comes inevitably and solitarily to mind.) "Grainger took positive steps to ensure his posthumous survival. A life-long atheist, he had every basis for belief that whatever of himself would endure would be found in his work. An obsessive genealogist of style, he believed implicitly that the es sence of any work could be found in the influences brought to bear on it.
I want to get the meaning of this sentence A life-long atheist, he had every basis for belief that whatever of himself would endure would be found in his work. without plagiarizing. His work would include the museum and all it's contents and as an atheist his enduring survival was that work. So how would you fit that interpretation into the article? Alatari ( talk) 02:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Your edit is fine with me. Atheist wasn't mentioned at all before. Alatari ( talk) 21:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
As its well documented, ive added him to this category. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 04:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Some sources I saw say his full name was "George Percy Grainger", others "Percy Aldridge Grainger". Can someone straighten this out? Wondering simply, -- Infrogmation 18:40 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
-- Melias2083 06:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
The facts seems to be as follows:
I'm editing the article accordingly. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 21:59, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Percy Grainger -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 06:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Percy Grainger/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
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==Composers Project Assessment of Percy Grainger: 2008-11-20==
This is an assessment of article Percy Grainger by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards ( WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== ===Summary=== This is an interesting article about a fascinating eccentric figure. His personal and musical biography is generally quite good, although specifics on some aspects are sometimes difficult to determine:
Critical and popular views of his music are generally not covered. The list of works does not appear to be complete; if a complete list is made, it should be in a separate article, as the selected set here is already too long, in my opinion. The article is poorly referenced; there is no list of reference works; and there are only a few foot notes. This is a significant barrier to successful GA review. The lead is too short; an article this length should have one of 2-3 paragraphs. While the article has an adequate number of images, it cries out for some specific media to be included, simply because the things being discussed are sufficiently odd. There should be images of his machines (which may even merit a separate article), as well as audio clips of the sounds they produced. Sample images of some of his odder time signature work would also enhance the article. This is a B-class article that has some great potential, if some of the above can be fulfilled. Magic ♪piano 15:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 13:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 02:38, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Percy Grainger was certainly into BDSM, but I can see nothing in the article that refers to him as being gay, bisexual or trans*. So why is he tagged and listed as a LGBT composer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.209.88 ( talk) 11:29, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
As predicted, the rather inane infobox that we currently have (that tells us nothing that the first few lines of the lead section doesn't, by the way) is being screwed around with despite their being hidden text telling people specificaly not to do so. Also, the lead image, and without no consensus whatsoever, is being changed by the same drive-by editor. I believe that such an edit goes against the version that passed FAC and should therefore be discussed here first where a consensus should be sought. Cassianto Talk 09:38, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
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In 2013, this person was described in an "identibox" on a trial basis. It was more or less stable until today. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 20:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
There are at least two overlapping edit wars going on the article page today. Everybody involved needs to stop warring and discuss here on the talk page. Remember, it is edit warring even you don't exceed three reverts in 24 hours. - Donald Albury 17:23, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
I did ask that the edit wars stop and changes be discussed back here, and yet the infobox image descriptor was reverted again. I will also note that the article clearly states that Grainger joined the United States Army during World War I as a bandsman, became a naturalized United States citizen while in the U.S. Army, and maintained his residence in the U.S. until his death, so the categorization of him as 'American' is quite appropriate. - Donald Albury 21:51, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Sometimes things can just creep in and I was wondering if the "External links" section has been reviewed lately. Eight links is a little excessive and can be considered link farming. -- Otr500 ( talk) 12:12, 7 January 2020 (UTC):
@ Gerda Arendt, Melodia, Tim riley, and Otr500: the remark '8 is too many' is indeed not helpful. As I mentioned on ELN, on some articles 3 is a linkfarm, on others 25 is a linkfarm. That being said, helpfulness is not necessarily an inclusion standard (not being helpful is an exclusion standard, though). E.g. people find having social networking on a page 'helpful', however we quite strictly exclude most of them as it simply is not Google's task to point to everything that someone might consider helpful. Just to comment (not necessarily arguments to exclude them all):
"Country Gardens": Performance by Grainger on pianola, 1919seems cherry picked, why one individual performance by the subject. Is there not a directory somewhere with multiple works (e.g. a youtube channel/playlist/collection)? (I now see that it is deemed the subject he is most known for, but also that it has an own article: Country Gardens)
Percy Grainger Americais rather unclear what it is, and un(der)presented in the article.
So there is a lot of material here where I question why they are of importance to the article though where quite some (not all) indeed do contain a lot of material that cannot be included in the article. For the material that has an own article I believe that the focus is in the text, and that material should expand on the text - the museum and Country Gardens is covered in the text and in own article and should be linked there, not here. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 08:46, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Like several other admirers of the main author of the present article, the late and painfully missed Brianboulton, I keep an eye on his FAs. The recent addition of a para on Grainger's vegetarianism seems to me proportionate. Grainger was so odd in so many ways that vegetarianism and teetotalism slip into the narrative smoothly enough. Do others who keep an eye on this page concur? Tim riley talk 17:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Someone (208.187.9.24) replaced "Australian-born" by "Australian" and removed the English references in the categories. Since Grainger moved to England when he was 13 and to the US when he was 32, I think the previous designations were fair and in fact we should add the American category (the other day the bass trombonist for my orchestra told me he had played under Grainger in a Massachusetts youth orchestra, and he had thought of PG as American). David Brooks 23:59, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
June 2006
Just to quantify this a little - adding evidence of his visits to Australia. Three visits that amount to several months. Tradimus ( talk) 14:56, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that Grainger identified as Australian? The article states Grainger felt Australia rejected him - there is evidence to suggest this is true. [5] [6] [7]
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As the article opens with the statement that PG "was an Australian-born composer, arranger and pianist who lived in the United States from 1914 and became an American citizen in 1918" I'm not sure of the import of the above question. Tim riley talk 17:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
It is as well to remember that Percy Grainger's parentage was British, and his birth in British soverign territory, as the colonies were not federated into an Australian nation until after his birth. The program note in the score of Colonial Song|citation above alludes to such a 'provincial' or back-water impression, without stipulating any fondness for it. Perhaps the footnote is a device to authenticate and advertise the work as an curio or other-worldly souvenir. The main source from the Legacy section by Roger Covell is a book entitled with a question as to Graingers naionality. One seldom hears the term 'Australian-American', as in Pat Sullivan (film producer), but I argue this is appropriate. Tradimus ( talk) 02:15, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Why anyone would disagree that Percy Grainger was a musicologist is baffling to me. Several sources directly describe him as one, and through his work as an educator and folklorist, it's easy to see why. As mentioned in the sources below, one of Grainger's most important contributions to the field of ethnomusicology was through his use of technology (namely the phonograph) to collect folk music.
Why? I Ask ( talk) 09:36, 30 January 2022 (UTC)