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About this: first, the citation for the google snippet from Australian Slavonic and East European studies is still not complete – it's a journal article, so the crucial info is the author and title of the individual article. Also, what is "scholars seem to propose" supposed to mean? "I found something on Google books, but I'm too lazy to look it up properly, so I can't say for certain what those scholars are actually proposing"? That's such a ridiculous confession of editorial laziness. Either we've read the sources, then we know what their authors are saying, or we don't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Just a question to IP 87.*: did you check the Gamkrelidze/Ivanov book in the original, about those "prayers for rain"? What original ethnographic studies do G./I. base this on? (They must have some ultimate source, because they are not themselves experts on Albanian folklore). Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
they cite (vittore) pisani who had an extensive knowledge of the ancient languages of the area from what i know (but i dont know about albanian...) 87.202.37.216 ( talk) 15:16, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
actually i made a mistake..gamkrelidze-ivanov believe *perkw- to come from *per with a suffix *-kw which would mean that albanian lacks the suffix and uses *per + *unos ( Perun) + *dyeus to form perendi if thats correct..you might have two gods here one striking (*per) and one being associated with the oak (*perkw-) Perkunas because its the tree struck by lightning...the derivations or at least the correspondences between the perun and the perkunas groups are really uncertain it seems and the origins of perendi even more uncertain (three basic etymologies proposed by Orel, including the connection to Perun...) perhaps the "illyro-thracian" connection should be removed until theres a good source documenting it 87.202.37.216 ( talk) 15:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
pisani - l'albanais et les autres langues indo-europeennes in saggi di linguistica storica, scritti scelti. turin: rosenberg & sellier. 1959 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.37.216 ( talk) 15:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
@ Miki Filigranski: apart from the fact that almost every single scholar, including all of those specializing in Albanian mythology and language history, says that Perëndi is of pre-Slavic origin. A change Perun->Perëndi is very obviously against the phonetics of Albanian. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 11:59, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
The Proto-Indo-European theonymic roots *dei- ("to shine") and *perkwu-s ("sky/rain/oak associations") may be grouped together under the classifications of "celestial luminosity". York 1993, pp. 230–240, 248) The Illyrian connection is mentioned in this article as different scholars support that hypothesis. According to many scholars, despite your pov additions to the article the custom of Dodola/Perperuna is most likely Paleo-Balkan/Thracian, not Slavic. Btw, what is the evidence that Perun was Slavic and not borrowing from Baltic, or even Paleo-Balkan (cf. the attested Thracian Perkos/Perkon)? – Βατο ( talk) 12:47, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
The following is a hetero-homometric ritual song for rainmaking which includes also the figure of Peperona (or Rona, in other cases also Perperuga, Dudula or the masculine form Dordolec or Durdulec), a traditional mythical character of Balkan folklore:[28]which is clearly a balanced wording. Where is the problem in this sentence? – Βατο ( talk) 16:20, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Perëndi is especially invoked by Albanians in incantations and songs praying for rain.[2]. Which source relates that song and custom of Peperona/Rona i.e. Perperuna/Dodola with Perëndi? This is OR, SYNTH and has nothing to do with DUEWEIGHT. You don't understand what DUEWEIGHT even means if you called out that policy. This is the last time I am asking you. This is a warning.-- Miki Filigranski ( talk) 16:26, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Hey, I just want to say that Perëndi is most likely not borrowing from Slavic. pe is prefix, not root (Cabej 1976, Orel 1983). Perkwunos didn't exist: main alleged attestations (Perun, Perkunas, Fjorgyn) have different roots and suffixes. Sławobóg ( talk) 21:44, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Is this account: "In
Albanian mythology, Perëndi is the consort of the love-goddess
Prende, comparable to
Frigg,
Odin's wife in
Norse mythology.
" attested in Albanian folklore or it is just a modern assumption by some scholars? It is sourced with
Lambertz 1973, pp. 455–509 , but I can't check it. –
Βατο (
talk) 21:08, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 8 July 2010. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
About this: first, the citation for the google snippet from Australian Slavonic and East European studies is still not complete – it's a journal article, so the crucial info is the author and title of the individual article. Also, what is "scholars seem to propose" supposed to mean? "I found something on Google books, but I'm too lazy to look it up properly, so I can't say for certain what those scholars are actually proposing"? That's such a ridiculous confession of editorial laziness. Either we've read the sources, then we know what their authors are saying, or we don't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Just a question to IP 87.*: did you check the Gamkrelidze/Ivanov book in the original, about those "prayers for rain"? What original ethnographic studies do G./I. base this on? (They must have some ultimate source, because they are not themselves experts on Albanian folklore). Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
they cite (vittore) pisani who had an extensive knowledge of the ancient languages of the area from what i know (but i dont know about albanian...) 87.202.37.216 ( talk) 15:16, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
actually i made a mistake..gamkrelidze-ivanov believe *perkw- to come from *per with a suffix *-kw which would mean that albanian lacks the suffix and uses *per + *unos ( Perun) + *dyeus to form perendi if thats correct..you might have two gods here one striking (*per) and one being associated with the oak (*perkw-) Perkunas because its the tree struck by lightning...the derivations or at least the correspondences between the perun and the perkunas groups are really uncertain it seems and the origins of perendi even more uncertain (three basic etymologies proposed by Orel, including the connection to Perun...) perhaps the "illyro-thracian" connection should be removed until theres a good source documenting it 87.202.37.216 ( talk) 15:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
pisani - l'albanais et les autres langues indo-europeennes in saggi di linguistica storica, scritti scelti. turin: rosenberg & sellier. 1959 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.37.216 ( talk) 15:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
@ Miki Filigranski: apart from the fact that almost every single scholar, including all of those specializing in Albanian mythology and language history, says that Perëndi is of pre-Slavic origin. A change Perun->Perëndi is very obviously against the phonetics of Albanian. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 11:59, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
The Proto-Indo-European theonymic roots *dei- ("to shine") and *perkwu-s ("sky/rain/oak associations") may be grouped together under the classifications of "celestial luminosity". York 1993, pp. 230–240, 248) The Illyrian connection is mentioned in this article as different scholars support that hypothesis. According to many scholars, despite your pov additions to the article the custom of Dodola/Perperuna is most likely Paleo-Balkan/Thracian, not Slavic. Btw, what is the evidence that Perun was Slavic and not borrowing from Baltic, or even Paleo-Balkan (cf. the attested Thracian Perkos/Perkon)? – Βατο ( talk) 12:47, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
The following is a hetero-homometric ritual song for rainmaking which includes also the figure of Peperona (or Rona, in other cases also Perperuga, Dudula or the masculine form Dordolec or Durdulec), a traditional mythical character of Balkan folklore:[28]which is clearly a balanced wording. Where is the problem in this sentence? – Βατο ( talk) 16:20, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Perëndi is especially invoked by Albanians in incantations and songs praying for rain.[2]. Which source relates that song and custom of Peperona/Rona i.e. Perperuna/Dodola with Perëndi? This is OR, SYNTH and has nothing to do with DUEWEIGHT. You don't understand what DUEWEIGHT even means if you called out that policy. This is the last time I am asking you. This is a warning.-- Miki Filigranski ( talk) 16:26, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Hey, I just want to say that Perëndi is most likely not borrowing from Slavic. pe is prefix, not root (Cabej 1976, Orel 1983). Perkwunos didn't exist: main alleged attestations (Perun, Perkunas, Fjorgyn) have different roots and suffixes. Sławobóg ( talk) 21:44, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Is this account: "In
Albanian mythology, Perëndi is the consort of the love-goddess
Prende, comparable to
Frigg,
Odin's wife in
Norse mythology.
" attested in Albanian folklore or it is just a modern assumption by some scholars? It is sourced with
Lambertz 1973, pp. 455–509 , but I can't check it. –
Βατο (
talk) 21:08, 24 July 2022 (UTC)