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Archived discussions from 8 January 2009 through 2015. Note: discusssions may be refactored.
This whole article needs a major overhaul. Where are these ridiculous references coming from? Mickey Mouse Publishing House? Stick to secular mainstream publishers when citing sources. Agciorg ( talk) 16:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
What specific references are you referring to? Ltwin ( talk) 19:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
This prhase "(although like Wesley they lean toward a modified form of baptismal regeneration)" was added under the beliefs section. Can an explanation of this be given. What is the modified baptismal regeneration and how is it like Wesley? Ltwin ( talk) 16:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Someone placed in the area dealing with Communion "This practice arises from the understanding that the last supper was a Seder service and as "no product of fermentation" could have been allowed in a Jewish house during Passover Exodus 12:19, accurate reenactment requires a "wine" which is not a product of fermentation (i.e. without leaven)." Is there a source that this is the reason why fermented wine is used? The Bible verse alone proves nothing. Ltwin ( talk) 19:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I am not so sure it was wine exactly that was used for the Last supper, because the bible specificly used the word "grapes". Now i realize that is how wine is made but wouldnt that be a more updated version of Grape Juice?
I "demoted" the Oneness section because it is a sub-section directly inside the sub-section Overview and not a sub-section of Beliefs. Oneness Pentecostalism is not a doctrine unto itself. Ltwin ( talk) 22:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore, while I think the information on Oneness Pentecostalism is better than it has been, this paragraph could use some slight stylistic changes or it may need to be placed in the Oneness Pentecostalism article:
The first problem I have is that Dr. Bernard is mentioned in text. I have nothing against him being cited, I think as a Oneness Pentecostal theologian he is perfect for citing information; however, if the information is cited why is there any need to mention the author and the book in text of the article? I realize there are other places in the article where this occurs and I will fix that, but I wanted to see what other editors felt. Also, this is my opinion and I'm trying to see what others think, to me this paragraph may actually go into too much detail about the finer points of theology which might belong more at the Oneness Pentecostalism article. As this is for all of Pentecostalism I'm attempting to use the summary style, linking to articles which go into more depth. I realize all articles aren't up to great standards but I also realize that too much information can clutter an article. I'm not taking any action on this, just want to see what others think?
Ltwin (
talk)
03:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I have examined your changes to the Oneness Pentecostal paragraphs, and they are fine by me. I would not like to see the information removed entirely, since Oneness doctrine on such basic subjects as the Godhead and the necessity of baptism for salvation differs rather sharply from the rest of Pentecostalism (not to mention the rest of Christianity); and I feel there should be at least a cursory mention of these things in a general article on Pentecostalism, with more detailed treatments left to other appropriate articles. In my opinion, at least, what we have here now seems to suffice for that. What does everyone else think? - Ecjmartin ( talk) 22:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to get this article to good article status ( WP:GA). The main problem I see is that there is still a substantial amount of the article unsourced or poorly sourced. Also the Women section is extremely out of proportion to the rest of the article. We either need to make the rest of the History sections longer, which with Wikipedia's article size guidelines may not be the best way to go, or we need to prune some of the excess minutae (spelling?) away. There are some important holes that need to be filled. Ltwin ( talk) 06:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
One could say that the usage of Pentecostal leaders use the doctrine of Proverbs, Matt, Mark, Luke and 1st John to aquire some points on the "Working of Women"-mwest
Also, it has come to my attention that when this article talks about Pentecostal history 2 major things are missing: the Finished Work controversy and Pentecostalism's growing association and some might call amalgamation with Evangelicalism (at least with American Pentecostalism). The Finished Work controversy is very important, as I've recently discovered. It was the first doctrinal dispute within the movement and I believe actually contributed to the deepened division between mainstream and Oneness groups. It also in some ways paved the way for relations between Pents. and Evangelicals. This relationship is changing Pentecostalism and, depending on who you ask, is either good, bad, or both for Pentecostalism. Some see the identification with Evangelicalism as blurring and deemphasizing Pentecostal distincives and in the long run weakining the movement. So we definitely need to include these in the history section. Should the Finished Work controversy have its own article? Ltwin ( talk) 14:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Another editor and I had a dispute as to whether the Assemblies of God were Holiness or Higher Life. We both cited sources and in the end we came to a compromise saying it was influenced by both movements. So, while I like your edits Drrosenior this one part concerns me, as you've seemed to have put the AG squarely in the Higher Life camp. Is this entirely accurate? But on the whole I like your edits as I had been wanting more info on the Finished Work controversy to be in this article, but didn't have enough knowledge to place it in there. Thanks. Ltwin ( talk) 00:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
I have issue with the opening statement that implies that Pentecost is somehow a subset of the Charismatic movement. Pentecost predates Charismatic by 60 years, and most pentecostal denominations rejected the charismatic movement on numerous grounds, scriptural and otherwise. Mmlj4 ( talk) 21:26, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
I am confused as to whether Finished Work and Higher Life or the same or similar, or is Higher Life more closer to the Wesleyan Holiness view? The article states in the introduction "Higher Life, (also known as 'Baptistic' or 'Finished Work' Pentecostals)". Can this be clarified in that article's introduction? Is Higher Life the same as Finished Work? Also, the Pentecostalism article seems to contradict itself. In the Holiness and Higher Life Pentecostalism section it says "The Wesleyan-Holiness orientation was the universal position in the early days of Pentecostalism espousing a three-fold process of conversion, progressive sanctification, and baptism in the Holy Spirit.[7]" but later in the Finished Work section it says "as sanctification is viewed as progressive rather than instantaneous." So which position believes in progressive sanctification and if both do than what is the difference between them? Thanks. Ltwin ( talk) 04:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Category:Pentecostalism is itself a category within Category:Charismatic and Pentecostal Christianity. — Robert Greer ( talk) 12:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I am in the process (I am not done yet) of changing terms like "pentecostals" and "charismatics" to lower case. They are not proper names, but are terms to describe a certain type of Christian. R/T-รัก-ไทย ( talk) 13:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no basis to capitalize words like evangelical and fundamentalist. I suggest that you start with your editing of this article by correcting these and other clear errors. R/T-รัก-ไทย ( talk) 02:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
1. Proposal to change "Pentecostalism" to "pentecostalism" (except where it is at the beginning of a sentence; including section headings)
2. Proposal to change "Evangeli..." to "evangeli..." - this occurs in the following segments;
3. Change from "Wesleyan Holiness, also known as Holiness-Pentecostalism, and Higher Life. " to "Wesleyan holiness, also and higher life."
4. Change "Wesleyan Holiness preachers taught that this" to "Wesleyan holiness preachers taught that this"
5. Change "Higher Life" to "higher life" in section name and other instances
6. Change "Wesleyan Holiness" "wesleyan holiness"
7. Change "Higher Life" to "higher life"
8. Change "Monisitc" to "monisitc"
9.Change "Oneness" to "oneness" in the phrase "According to Oneness teaching"
10. Change "Modalistic Monarchianism" to "modalistic monarchianism"
Chzz ► 06:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia's Manual of Style says in part:
Obviously, Pentecostal is derived from the proper noun - Pentecost. Ltwin ( talk) 17:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
The organization of this article still leaves much to be desired. I'm focusing on the Beliefs section and will probably change it on these lines:
What does anyone else think? Ltwin ( talk) 22:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
It bothers me that the prosperity crowd claims to be part of pentecost. I would have to do a bit of research, but my feelings are that they are not pentecostals proper, only that many of them happen to nominally accept the gifts of the spirit. As such, I don't think that the prosperity message is a subset of pentecostal theology. As far as the gifts of the spirit are concerned, they appear to limit themselves to those few that enable them to scam the TV audience ("I have a word of knowledge that 100 people are going to 'plant a seed' of $1000 tonight"). Mmlj4 ( talk) 14:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
But that's how you have it listed: "Beliefs by sub-groups", then "Word of faith movement". I dispute that this is in fact true.
I do agree that many (most? I wonder these days) AG churches no longer want the gifts or moving of the Holy Spirit in their services. 70.171.94.246 ( talk) 14:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean "But that's how you have it listed". The Word of faith churches are within Pentecostalism. That doesn't mean they are representative of the movement or that all Pentecostals are word of faith adherents. What it does mean is we can't pick and choose what part of Pentecostalism we will accept or recognize. I will place a source to verify that it is indeed apart of Pentecostalism. Ltwin ( talk) 16:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The phrase "and cannot be earned through good deeds alone such as penance" under Salvation seems a little strange to me. Penance is a Catholic idea, and to my knowledge Pentecostals never think in terms of punishing themselves in order to earn God's favor. The remainder of the sentence is correct, however. I suggest that the fragment "such as penance" be deleted from the text. Mmlj4 ( talk) 01:53, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I realize that translations and quotes from the Bible are a bit of a touchy issue with some folk, so I tend to leave notices on the talk page when I change a biblical quotation, so that I can justify my reasoning. In this case, the section Early History contained a quote from Joel 2, attributed to the NIV. It didn't look right to me, so I looked into Joel 2 in the NIV and discovered that the verses being referred to (28 and 29) said something significantly different from the quote in the sections. So I replaced the text with a quote from the King James Version, which has the advantage of being both public domain and widely used. I did this because I wasn't sure whether the NIV can be posted used online, and I'm not comfortable with fair use laws. However, I have no ideological commitment to putting any version on Wikipedia, and if someone else wants to put in a different version, that's fine with me. I'll leave it to the rest to determine what the copyright law says. However, I will continue replacing uncited or innacurate quotations with appropriate quotations from public domain sources. Mitchell Powell ( talk) 20:36, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
And then there's the quotes like Romans 12:19, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," where Paul quotes both the Septuagint and the Hebrew text ("Vengeance is mine" from the Hebrew text, "I will repay" from the LXX). It's endlessly fun stuff to ponder. Mitchell Powell ( talk) 19:23, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
I object to the use of the euphemism "Pentecostalism is a renewal movement within Christianity". Pentecostalism is not a renewal movement, it is a sect, plain and simple. Here is the definition of sect, from Wikipedia: "A sect is a group with distinctive religious, political or philosophical beliefs. Although in the past it was mostly used to refer to religious groups, it has since expanded and in modern culture can refer to any organization that breaks away from a larger one to follow a different set of rules and principles."
Under this definition, pentecostalism is a sect. My first edit was reversed under the argument that "the word sect has a negative connotation" (really a failed attempt at maintaining a non-neutral point of view). It is NOT Wikipedia's role to use euphemism and distortion of the truth to prevent some people being offended. If it is a sect, describe it as such.
Also, notice I used the word "sect", not "cult". 76.10.152.216 ( talk) 05:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
... cult, racist, perverted, sect, fundamentalist, heretic, extremist, denialist, terrorist, freedom fighter, pseudo-, -gate, controversial ...
I also do not wish for an edit war. There was an edit conflict which prevented me from posting this:
reverted this edit from Topsaint. His edit was sourced; however, he has misunderstood the sources he cites. Let me explain. He cited The Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church; however, I read nothing which states that Pentecostals view tongues or a Pentecostal-like baptism experience as necessary or essential to salvation. The closest thing I can see is the following, "Its adherents emphasize the corporate element in worship (often marked by great spontaneity) and lay stress on the practice of the gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 and recorded Acts (e.g. speaking in tongues or glossolalia, divine [spiritual] healing, and exorcism) and on possession of these gifts by all true believers." Of course "lay stress on . . . possession of these gifts" is not the same thing as saying "you must have these gifts to be saved."
Topsaint also cited Arrington's Pneuma article. On page 1-2, he writes, "In one sense, every believer has the presence of the Holy Spirit. . . . One cannot be a Christian without having the Spirit, which is the same as being indwelt by the Spirit." The conclusion of the article on page 9 states:
Therefore, Arrington clearly distinguishes being indwelt by the Spirit which is the state of every regenerated or saved person and being filled with the Spirit which is the state of those who have received the Pentecostal baptism in the Holy Spirit. Tell me where that says that one is not regenerated unless having been baptized with the Spirit or having spoken in tongues? Ltwin ( talk) 18:52, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I hope not to offend but I changed "singing in tongues" to "speaking in tongues". Marrik666 ( talk) 17:33, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I understand but I've been raised Pentacostal since I was 3. In my family and church, it was always refered to as "speaking" in tongues after the experience in the upper room in the book Acts. I think it was chapter 2. The whole tongues of fire thing. Please respond. Marrik666 ( talk) 00:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
We would all sing a song or chorus, and everyone would join in. Then choruses would break out here and there, and some would be singing in tongues and some in English – and the harmony was wonderful. Once in a while a soprano voice would leap out and you would hear it above the whole congregation. Then it would be mingled with other voices and it all formed a beautiful harmony. Then the singing would stop short and everyone would start praising the Lord, some speaking in an undertone in tongues, some clapping their hands in praise to God. No one who has ever heard a congregation singing under the unction of the Spirit could ever forget or mistake it.
A colored woman with the voice of a Patti began singing in a tongue which probably never before was heard. Her voice was joined by a contralto of great depth and richness, but singing another tongue. Others took up the chant, each after her own tune and ‘tongues,’ till the building was vocal with the tones of golden mellowness. They say that the Holy Ghost tunes their voices.
Maybe we should just say "also called speaking" to the article? That sounds reasonable to me. Marrik666 ( talk) 23:42, 18 January 2011 (UTC) Also read Acts chapter 2 I think. Marrik666 ( talk) 18:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
What percentage of pentecostals prescribe to the doctorine of dispensationalism? If it's rather high, I believe it should be included in the article. -- Confession0791 talk 07:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Could someone write something about the importance of Pentecostalism in Africa, and its continuing growth there? Same goes for Brazil and the Caribbean.
Perhaps the obvious needs to be stated more strongly - within the United States and the UK (and other territories?) Pentecostal congregations often draw many or most of their members from the black community of the country.
Could someone also comment on attitudes to material prosperity in Pentecostalism? I can't recollect any source, but I've read/heard that even in early Pentecostalism there was a strong belief in the pursuit of material success, presumably through - in varying proportions - industriousness on the part of the believer, and compliance with the will of God in the expectation that blessings would follow. That's not to say that undiluted Prosperity Theology is the norm within Pentecostalism, of course.
(As a secular being, I'd humbly suggest that the belief in Doing Well might be expected to appeal to a segment of society that 100 years ago was largely poor and routinely mistreated. I add that as something to be considered for article purposes - not to provoke.)
Regards to all, Notreallydavid ( talk) 06:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I have revised the "Salvation" section. However, in doing so I wondered should the two teachings on sanctification be included in this section or should it be explained in the "Classical Pentecostalism" section which explains the difference between Wesleyan and non-Wesleyan Pentecostalism? What do others think? Ltwin ( talk) 01:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
This article needs substantial work. The claims of believers should be stated as claims, not facts. Ptet ( talk) 09:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
You are "not aware" of any controversies surrounding modern Pentecostalism? Perhaps http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pentecostalism+controversial can help. If you really are "not aware" of this, fair enough, but I hope we can therefore agree this article needs more work. Ptet ( talk) 18:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
No, this article is non-neutral because it has been written (from what I can see) by Pentacostals with no interest in providing relevant information which might show the movement in a less-than-flattering light. I'll make some suggested changes I hope next week when I have the time, but the type of things you might like to cover if you wish are (a) the recent research on speaking in tongues which shows that it is similar across many non-Christian traditions; (b) controversies over "aggressive" proselytising from within the movement, especially in Asia and South America; (c) controversies over claims of claimed faith healings; and (d) arguments within the movement over perceived "modernisation". "A movement as vast as Pentecostalism surely has many controversies." Indeed - so let this article deal with them, even in summary. Ptet ( talk) 19:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I do think that the POV question is valid - some of this article reads (no offence) like a brochure - but we're all here to pull together so I'll remove my POV for now and make changes to the main article when I get the chance - unless someone else wants to have a go. Pentecostalism is a fascinating movement followed by many millions of people, and I'm sure it deserves a more knowledgable person than me to add to what is already a through and interesting entry here. Ptet ( talk) 11:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
The first sentences of the first and third paragraphs, for example. Without quite a bit of background knowledge, I think they read like jargon.The section "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" reads like one of those articles by a corporation which tells me how great the corporation is. The sentence "Some of these are immediate while others are enduring or permanent" repeats a claim of Pentacostals as fact. The section on "Tongues and interpretation" tells me what Pentacostals claim without any background or even neutral information. In fact, skimming through it now much of it reads like an "introduction to Pentacostalism", not an encyclopaedia article. That said, the article is packed with information which is a good thing - it is (to me) not written in a neutral, encyclopaedic tone. Compare and contrast the entry on "Islam".It's packed with information and (again to me) has a neutral tone and does not sound like it's a Muslim telling me the history of his religion. I appreciate "tone" is often subjective - but that's why we have the gift of POV flags and talk pages. Seriously, I am not criticising the formidable knowledge of the subject of Pentacostalism that the authors of this article show, nor their sincerity in getting that information across... I just don't see that the article is as neutral and as balanced as one expects from Wikipedia. Ptet ( talk) 20:02, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Someone, not me, added a category fundamentalism and had this reverted today. Pentecostalism is not fundamentalism, but there are as clear associations between the two labels as between the christian right label and pentecostalism that has been allowed. What is the rationale for removing that label? Should we also remove Christian Right for the same reason?
Well, first off, Pentecostals are not Fundamentalists. There are clear differences. As to why it was removed, I don't know since I was not the editor to remove it. However, I can give two reasons on my own:
1) If we were to add it, we should at least get the article right. It should be Christian Fundamentalism. 2) Christian Fundamentalism is already linked in the section 1930-1959. Therefore, there is no point in adding the term to the See also section. Ltwin ( talk) 14:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Sirfurboy ( talk) 17:19, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
A revert of an edit that removed redundancy looks odd to me. The text reads:
The " running the aisles" and the "Jericho march" are also traditional Pentecostal practices. The Jericho march, a form of corporate worship, involves a congregation marching with loud shouts of prayer and singing. [1] Another practice in some Pentecostal churches is running the aisles.
i.e. first sentence has "the running the aisles... is also a traditional..." and last sentence "another practis ... is running the aisles". That is redundant. If you wish to separate running the aisles from the jericho march, the first one should go. I will make that edit now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirfurboy ( talk • contribs) 09:28, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I am unfamiliar with the work by Van Cleave, and I object to its simplistic interpretation of the subject of spiritual gifts.
While it might make sense to create simple cladistic categories (i.e., "vocal" gifts), such notions do not fit the descriptions given by the Apostle's writings (i.e., I Cor 12). Paul said that "...to one " (that is, to one sort of believer) is given the gift of tongues, and to another (greek, hallos - another of the same sort) is given the interpretion of tongues. To yet another sort of believer (greek, heteros - another of a different sort) is given the logos of wisdom, or the logos of knowledge. To yet another class of believers are given the remaining gifts (discerning of spirits, miracles, healings, faith, and prophecy.
Prophecy, then, is not classified by the Apostle as a "vocal" gift. It is hard to say what reason there may be for the opinions of Van Cleave, but his source isn't grounded in a careful reading of the Greek text. Still, it leaves one to wonder: whatever reason there is for the distribution of different gifts to different individuals may be found in individual differences in attitude, character, or some other qualifying conditions. To me, there is no question that the Apostle associated certain gifts with individual attributes of the believers who exercised them. Mjmondt ( talk) 22:15, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
64.185.130.217 posted this comment on 16 June 2013 ( view all feedback).
what is the difference, either official or unofficial, between a Pentecostal congregation and an Assemblies of God congregation? What about congregations that bill themselves as both Pentecostal AND Assemblies of God?
Any thoughts?
"Pentecostals emphasize the teaching of the "full gospel" or "foursquare gospel". The term foursquare refers to the four fundamental beliefs of Pentecostalism: Jesus saves according to John 3:16; baptizes with the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:4; heals bodily according to James 5:15; and is coming again to receive those who are saved according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17.[5]" This is technically incorrect and unsupported. I think that they are referring to this book by Dayton that one can find with excerpts on the Internet - "The Theological Roots of Pentecostalism." I am unable to find the statement that the foursquare gospel refers to the four fundamental beliefs of Pentecostalism within that book. The terminology of the "foursquare gospel" is a term uniquely used by the "International Church of the Foursquare Gospel," not by Pentecostalism as a whole. "It's the Foursquare Gospel, the Foursquare Gospel, Clear let the message of the Foursquare ring, Jesus Only Savior, Baptizer, and Healer, Jesus the Coming King." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QXpWTjacO8 Kids song from Angelus Temple ca. 1925. Easeltine ( talk) 16:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
There is no evidence that any other Pentecostal group uses the term "Foursquare." The term "Foursquare," is not found in any other Pentecostal group's Statement of Faith. Can anyone provide a reference other than Dayton's article from 1980 that uses the terminology "Foursquare?" Dayton is a Northern Baptist, might be a little skewed perspective. Easeltine ( talk) 11:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Category:Pentecostal pastors and related categories have been nominated for renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. Ltwin ( talk) 17:05, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't the appearance of pentecostals be included. They all follow the old testament on how women and men should appear. With women having long hair and long skirts and men having beards and pants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwesar ( talk • contribs) 02:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Are you sure, surely many within the protestant Christian community reject Pentecostalism, http://www.gty.org.uk/resources/sermon-series/219/charismatic-chaos , the Westminster confession of faith (aritcle 1,1) http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ , RC Sproul https://www.gty.org/blog/B131008/rc-sproul-on-the-cessationist-convictions-of-the-reformers , what about some differences in core doctrines /info/en/?search=Oneness_Pentecostalism I don't think you can say it is within Protestant or reformed Theology at all — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeepVeinInsomnia ( talk • contribs) 00:05, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Archived discussions from 8 January 2009 through 2015. Note: discusssions may be refactored.
This whole article needs a major overhaul. Where are these ridiculous references coming from? Mickey Mouse Publishing House? Stick to secular mainstream publishers when citing sources. Agciorg ( talk) 16:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
What specific references are you referring to? Ltwin ( talk) 19:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
This prhase "(although like Wesley they lean toward a modified form of baptismal regeneration)" was added under the beliefs section. Can an explanation of this be given. What is the modified baptismal regeneration and how is it like Wesley? Ltwin ( talk) 16:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Someone placed in the area dealing with Communion "This practice arises from the understanding that the last supper was a Seder service and as "no product of fermentation" could have been allowed in a Jewish house during Passover Exodus 12:19, accurate reenactment requires a "wine" which is not a product of fermentation (i.e. without leaven)." Is there a source that this is the reason why fermented wine is used? The Bible verse alone proves nothing. Ltwin ( talk) 19:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I am not so sure it was wine exactly that was used for the Last supper, because the bible specificly used the word "grapes". Now i realize that is how wine is made but wouldnt that be a more updated version of Grape Juice?
I "demoted" the Oneness section because it is a sub-section directly inside the sub-section Overview and not a sub-section of Beliefs. Oneness Pentecostalism is not a doctrine unto itself. Ltwin ( talk) 22:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore, while I think the information on Oneness Pentecostalism is better than it has been, this paragraph could use some slight stylistic changes or it may need to be placed in the Oneness Pentecostalism article:
The first problem I have is that Dr. Bernard is mentioned in text. I have nothing against him being cited, I think as a Oneness Pentecostal theologian he is perfect for citing information; however, if the information is cited why is there any need to mention the author and the book in text of the article? I realize there are other places in the article where this occurs and I will fix that, but I wanted to see what other editors felt. Also, this is my opinion and I'm trying to see what others think, to me this paragraph may actually go into too much detail about the finer points of theology which might belong more at the Oneness Pentecostalism article. As this is for all of Pentecostalism I'm attempting to use the summary style, linking to articles which go into more depth. I realize all articles aren't up to great standards but I also realize that too much information can clutter an article. I'm not taking any action on this, just want to see what others think?
Ltwin (
talk)
03:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I have examined your changes to the Oneness Pentecostal paragraphs, and they are fine by me. I would not like to see the information removed entirely, since Oneness doctrine on such basic subjects as the Godhead and the necessity of baptism for salvation differs rather sharply from the rest of Pentecostalism (not to mention the rest of Christianity); and I feel there should be at least a cursory mention of these things in a general article on Pentecostalism, with more detailed treatments left to other appropriate articles. In my opinion, at least, what we have here now seems to suffice for that. What does everyone else think? - Ecjmartin ( talk) 22:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to get this article to good article status ( WP:GA). The main problem I see is that there is still a substantial amount of the article unsourced or poorly sourced. Also the Women section is extremely out of proportion to the rest of the article. We either need to make the rest of the History sections longer, which with Wikipedia's article size guidelines may not be the best way to go, or we need to prune some of the excess minutae (spelling?) away. There are some important holes that need to be filled. Ltwin ( talk) 06:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
One could say that the usage of Pentecostal leaders use the doctrine of Proverbs, Matt, Mark, Luke and 1st John to aquire some points on the "Working of Women"-mwest
Also, it has come to my attention that when this article talks about Pentecostal history 2 major things are missing: the Finished Work controversy and Pentecostalism's growing association and some might call amalgamation with Evangelicalism (at least with American Pentecostalism). The Finished Work controversy is very important, as I've recently discovered. It was the first doctrinal dispute within the movement and I believe actually contributed to the deepened division between mainstream and Oneness groups. It also in some ways paved the way for relations between Pents. and Evangelicals. This relationship is changing Pentecostalism and, depending on who you ask, is either good, bad, or both for Pentecostalism. Some see the identification with Evangelicalism as blurring and deemphasizing Pentecostal distincives and in the long run weakining the movement. So we definitely need to include these in the history section. Should the Finished Work controversy have its own article? Ltwin ( talk) 14:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Another editor and I had a dispute as to whether the Assemblies of God were Holiness or Higher Life. We both cited sources and in the end we came to a compromise saying it was influenced by both movements. So, while I like your edits Drrosenior this one part concerns me, as you've seemed to have put the AG squarely in the Higher Life camp. Is this entirely accurate? But on the whole I like your edits as I had been wanting more info on the Finished Work controversy to be in this article, but didn't have enough knowledge to place it in there. Thanks. Ltwin ( talk) 00:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
I have issue with the opening statement that implies that Pentecost is somehow a subset of the Charismatic movement. Pentecost predates Charismatic by 60 years, and most pentecostal denominations rejected the charismatic movement on numerous grounds, scriptural and otherwise. Mmlj4 ( talk) 21:26, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
I am confused as to whether Finished Work and Higher Life or the same or similar, or is Higher Life more closer to the Wesleyan Holiness view? The article states in the introduction "Higher Life, (also known as 'Baptistic' or 'Finished Work' Pentecostals)". Can this be clarified in that article's introduction? Is Higher Life the same as Finished Work? Also, the Pentecostalism article seems to contradict itself. In the Holiness and Higher Life Pentecostalism section it says "The Wesleyan-Holiness orientation was the universal position in the early days of Pentecostalism espousing a three-fold process of conversion, progressive sanctification, and baptism in the Holy Spirit.[7]" but later in the Finished Work section it says "as sanctification is viewed as progressive rather than instantaneous." So which position believes in progressive sanctification and if both do than what is the difference between them? Thanks. Ltwin ( talk) 04:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Category:Pentecostalism is itself a category within Category:Charismatic and Pentecostal Christianity. — Robert Greer ( talk) 12:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I am in the process (I am not done yet) of changing terms like "pentecostals" and "charismatics" to lower case. They are not proper names, but are terms to describe a certain type of Christian. R/T-รัก-ไทย ( talk) 13:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no basis to capitalize words like evangelical and fundamentalist. I suggest that you start with your editing of this article by correcting these and other clear errors. R/T-รัก-ไทย ( talk) 02:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
1. Proposal to change "Pentecostalism" to "pentecostalism" (except where it is at the beginning of a sentence; including section headings)
2. Proposal to change "Evangeli..." to "evangeli..." - this occurs in the following segments;
3. Change from "Wesleyan Holiness, also known as Holiness-Pentecostalism, and Higher Life. " to "Wesleyan holiness, also and higher life."
4. Change "Wesleyan Holiness preachers taught that this" to "Wesleyan holiness preachers taught that this"
5. Change "Higher Life" to "higher life" in section name and other instances
6. Change "Wesleyan Holiness" "wesleyan holiness"
7. Change "Higher Life" to "higher life"
8. Change "Monisitc" to "monisitc"
9.Change "Oneness" to "oneness" in the phrase "According to Oneness teaching"
10. Change "Modalistic Monarchianism" to "modalistic monarchianism"
Chzz ► 06:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia's Manual of Style says in part:
Obviously, Pentecostal is derived from the proper noun - Pentecost. Ltwin ( talk) 17:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
The organization of this article still leaves much to be desired. I'm focusing on the Beliefs section and will probably change it on these lines:
What does anyone else think? Ltwin ( talk) 22:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
It bothers me that the prosperity crowd claims to be part of pentecost. I would have to do a bit of research, but my feelings are that they are not pentecostals proper, only that many of them happen to nominally accept the gifts of the spirit. As such, I don't think that the prosperity message is a subset of pentecostal theology. As far as the gifts of the spirit are concerned, they appear to limit themselves to those few that enable them to scam the TV audience ("I have a word of knowledge that 100 people are going to 'plant a seed' of $1000 tonight"). Mmlj4 ( talk) 14:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
But that's how you have it listed: "Beliefs by sub-groups", then "Word of faith movement". I dispute that this is in fact true.
I do agree that many (most? I wonder these days) AG churches no longer want the gifts or moving of the Holy Spirit in their services. 70.171.94.246 ( talk) 14:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean "But that's how you have it listed". The Word of faith churches are within Pentecostalism. That doesn't mean they are representative of the movement or that all Pentecostals are word of faith adherents. What it does mean is we can't pick and choose what part of Pentecostalism we will accept or recognize. I will place a source to verify that it is indeed apart of Pentecostalism. Ltwin ( talk) 16:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The phrase "and cannot be earned through good deeds alone such as penance" under Salvation seems a little strange to me. Penance is a Catholic idea, and to my knowledge Pentecostals never think in terms of punishing themselves in order to earn God's favor. The remainder of the sentence is correct, however. I suggest that the fragment "such as penance" be deleted from the text. Mmlj4 ( talk) 01:53, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I realize that translations and quotes from the Bible are a bit of a touchy issue with some folk, so I tend to leave notices on the talk page when I change a biblical quotation, so that I can justify my reasoning. In this case, the section Early History contained a quote from Joel 2, attributed to the NIV. It didn't look right to me, so I looked into Joel 2 in the NIV and discovered that the verses being referred to (28 and 29) said something significantly different from the quote in the sections. So I replaced the text with a quote from the King James Version, which has the advantage of being both public domain and widely used. I did this because I wasn't sure whether the NIV can be posted used online, and I'm not comfortable with fair use laws. However, I have no ideological commitment to putting any version on Wikipedia, and if someone else wants to put in a different version, that's fine with me. I'll leave it to the rest to determine what the copyright law says. However, I will continue replacing uncited or innacurate quotations with appropriate quotations from public domain sources. Mitchell Powell ( talk) 20:36, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
And then there's the quotes like Romans 12:19, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," where Paul quotes both the Septuagint and the Hebrew text ("Vengeance is mine" from the Hebrew text, "I will repay" from the LXX). It's endlessly fun stuff to ponder. Mitchell Powell ( talk) 19:23, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
I object to the use of the euphemism "Pentecostalism is a renewal movement within Christianity". Pentecostalism is not a renewal movement, it is a sect, plain and simple. Here is the definition of sect, from Wikipedia: "A sect is a group with distinctive religious, political or philosophical beliefs. Although in the past it was mostly used to refer to religious groups, it has since expanded and in modern culture can refer to any organization that breaks away from a larger one to follow a different set of rules and principles."
Under this definition, pentecostalism is a sect. My first edit was reversed under the argument that "the word sect has a negative connotation" (really a failed attempt at maintaining a non-neutral point of view). It is NOT Wikipedia's role to use euphemism and distortion of the truth to prevent some people being offended. If it is a sect, describe it as such.
Also, notice I used the word "sect", not "cult". 76.10.152.216 ( talk) 05:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
... cult, racist, perverted, sect, fundamentalist, heretic, extremist, denialist, terrorist, freedom fighter, pseudo-, -gate, controversial ...
I also do not wish for an edit war. There was an edit conflict which prevented me from posting this:
reverted this edit from Topsaint. His edit was sourced; however, he has misunderstood the sources he cites. Let me explain. He cited The Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church; however, I read nothing which states that Pentecostals view tongues or a Pentecostal-like baptism experience as necessary or essential to salvation. The closest thing I can see is the following, "Its adherents emphasize the corporate element in worship (often marked by great spontaneity) and lay stress on the practice of the gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 and recorded Acts (e.g. speaking in tongues or glossolalia, divine [spiritual] healing, and exorcism) and on possession of these gifts by all true believers." Of course "lay stress on . . . possession of these gifts" is not the same thing as saying "you must have these gifts to be saved."
Topsaint also cited Arrington's Pneuma article. On page 1-2, he writes, "In one sense, every believer has the presence of the Holy Spirit. . . . One cannot be a Christian without having the Spirit, which is the same as being indwelt by the Spirit." The conclusion of the article on page 9 states:
Therefore, Arrington clearly distinguishes being indwelt by the Spirit which is the state of every regenerated or saved person and being filled with the Spirit which is the state of those who have received the Pentecostal baptism in the Holy Spirit. Tell me where that says that one is not regenerated unless having been baptized with the Spirit or having spoken in tongues? Ltwin ( talk) 18:52, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I hope not to offend but I changed "singing in tongues" to "speaking in tongues". Marrik666 ( talk) 17:33, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I understand but I've been raised Pentacostal since I was 3. In my family and church, it was always refered to as "speaking" in tongues after the experience in the upper room in the book Acts. I think it was chapter 2. The whole tongues of fire thing. Please respond. Marrik666 ( talk) 00:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
We would all sing a song or chorus, and everyone would join in. Then choruses would break out here and there, and some would be singing in tongues and some in English – and the harmony was wonderful. Once in a while a soprano voice would leap out and you would hear it above the whole congregation. Then it would be mingled with other voices and it all formed a beautiful harmony. Then the singing would stop short and everyone would start praising the Lord, some speaking in an undertone in tongues, some clapping their hands in praise to God. No one who has ever heard a congregation singing under the unction of the Spirit could ever forget or mistake it.
A colored woman with the voice of a Patti began singing in a tongue which probably never before was heard. Her voice was joined by a contralto of great depth and richness, but singing another tongue. Others took up the chant, each after her own tune and ‘tongues,’ till the building was vocal with the tones of golden mellowness. They say that the Holy Ghost tunes their voices.
Maybe we should just say "also called speaking" to the article? That sounds reasonable to me. Marrik666 ( talk) 23:42, 18 January 2011 (UTC) Also read Acts chapter 2 I think. Marrik666 ( talk) 18:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
What percentage of pentecostals prescribe to the doctorine of dispensationalism? If it's rather high, I believe it should be included in the article. -- Confession0791 talk 07:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Could someone write something about the importance of Pentecostalism in Africa, and its continuing growth there? Same goes for Brazil and the Caribbean.
Perhaps the obvious needs to be stated more strongly - within the United States and the UK (and other territories?) Pentecostal congregations often draw many or most of their members from the black community of the country.
Could someone also comment on attitudes to material prosperity in Pentecostalism? I can't recollect any source, but I've read/heard that even in early Pentecostalism there was a strong belief in the pursuit of material success, presumably through - in varying proportions - industriousness on the part of the believer, and compliance with the will of God in the expectation that blessings would follow. That's not to say that undiluted Prosperity Theology is the norm within Pentecostalism, of course.
(As a secular being, I'd humbly suggest that the belief in Doing Well might be expected to appeal to a segment of society that 100 years ago was largely poor and routinely mistreated. I add that as something to be considered for article purposes - not to provoke.)
Regards to all, Notreallydavid ( talk) 06:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I have revised the "Salvation" section. However, in doing so I wondered should the two teachings on sanctification be included in this section or should it be explained in the "Classical Pentecostalism" section which explains the difference between Wesleyan and non-Wesleyan Pentecostalism? What do others think? Ltwin ( talk) 01:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
This article needs substantial work. The claims of believers should be stated as claims, not facts. Ptet ( talk) 09:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
You are "not aware" of any controversies surrounding modern Pentecostalism? Perhaps http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pentecostalism+controversial can help. If you really are "not aware" of this, fair enough, but I hope we can therefore agree this article needs more work. Ptet ( talk) 18:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
No, this article is non-neutral because it has been written (from what I can see) by Pentacostals with no interest in providing relevant information which might show the movement in a less-than-flattering light. I'll make some suggested changes I hope next week when I have the time, but the type of things you might like to cover if you wish are (a) the recent research on speaking in tongues which shows that it is similar across many non-Christian traditions; (b) controversies over "aggressive" proselytising from within the movement, especially in Asia and South America; (c) controversies over claims of claimed faith healings; and (d) arguments within the movement over perceived "modernisation". "A movement as vast as Pentecostalism surely has many controversies." Indeed - so let this article deal with them, even in summary. Ptet ( talk) 19:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I do think that the POV question is valid - some of this article reads (no offence) like a brochure - but we're all here to pull together so I'll remove my POV for now and make changes to the main article when I get the chance - unless someone else wants to have a go. Pentecostalism is a fascinating movement followed by many millions of people, and I'm sure it deserves a more knowledgable person than me to add to what is already a through and interesting entry here. Ptet ( talk) 11:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
The first sentences of the first and third paragraphs, for example. Without quite a bit of background knowledge, I think they read like jargon.The section "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" reads like one of those articles by a corporation which tells me how great the corporation is. The sentence "Some of these are immediate while others are enduring or permanent" repeats a claim of Pentacostals as fact. The section on "Tongues and interpretation" tells me what Pentacostals claim without any background or even neutral information. In fact, skimming through it now much of it reads like an "introduction to Pentacostalism", not an encyclopaedia article. That said, the article is packed with information which is a good thing - it is (to me) not written in a neutral, encyclopaedic tone. Compare and contrast the entry on "Islam".It's packed with information and (again to me) has a neutral tone and does not sound like it's a Muslim telling me the history of his religion. I appreciate "tone" is often subjective - but that's why we have the gift of POV flags and talk pages. Seriously, I am not criticising the formidable knowledge of the subject of Pentacostalism that the authors of this article show, nor their sincerity in getting that information across... I just don't see that the article is as neutral and as balanced as one expects from Wikipedia. Ptet ( talk) 20:02, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Someone, not me, added a category fundamentalism and had this reverted today. Pentecostalism is not fundamentalism, but there are as clear associations between the two labels as between the christian right label and pentecostalism that has been allowed. What is the rationale for removing that label? Should we also remove Christian Right for the same reason?
Well, first off, Pentecostals are not Fundamentalists. There are clear differences. As to why it was removed, I don't know since I was not the editor to remove it. However, I can give two reasons on my own:
1) If we were to add it, we should at least get the article right. It should be Christian Fundamentalism. 2) Christian Fundamentalism is already linked in the section 1930-1959. Therefore, there is no point in adding the term to the See also section. Ltwin ( talk) 14:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Sirfurboy ( talk) 17:19, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
A revert of an edit that removed redundancy looks odd to me. The text reads:
The " running the aisles" and the "Jericho march" are also traditional Pentecostal practices. The Jericho march, a form of corporate worship, involves a congregation marching with loud shouts of prayer and singing. [1] Another practice in some Pentecostal churches is running the aisles.
i.e. first sentence has "the running the aisles... is also a traditional..." and last sentence "another practis ... is running the aisles". That is redundant. If you wish to separate running the aisles from the jericho march, the first one should go. I will make that edit now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirfurboy ( talk • contribs) 09:28, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I am unfamiliar with the work by Van Cleave, and I object to its simplistic interpretation of the subject of spiritual gifts.
While it might make sense to create simple cladistic categories (i.e., "vocal" gifts), such notions do not fit the descriptions given by the Apostle's writings (i.e., I Cor 12). Paul said that "...to one " (that is, to one sort of believer) is given the gift of tongues, and to another (greek, hallos - another of the same sort) is given the interpretion of tongues. To yet another sort of believer (greek, heteros - another of a different sort) is given the logos of wisdom, or the logos of knowledge. To yet another class of believers are given the remaining gifts (discerning of spirits, miracles, healings, faith, and prophecy.
Prophecy, then, is not classified by the Apostle as a "vocal" gift. It is hard to say what reason there may be for the opinions of Van Cleave, but his source isn't grounded in a careful reading of the Greek text. Still, it leaves one to wonder: whatever reason there is for the distribution of different gifts to different individuals may be found in individual differences in attitude, character, or some other qualifying conditions. To me, there is no question that the Apostle associated certain gifts with individual attributes of the believers who exercised them. Mjmondt ( talk) 22:15, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
64.185.130.217 posted this comment on 16 June 2013 ( view all feedback).
what is the difference, either official or unofficial, between a Pentecostal congregation and an Assemblies of God congregation? What about congregations that bill themselves as both Pentecostal AND Assemblies of God?
Any thoughts?
"Pentecostals emphasize the teaching of the "full gospel" or "foursquare gospel". The term foursquare refers to the four fundamental beliefs of Pentecostalism: Jesus saves according to John 3:16; baptizes with the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:4; heals bodily according to James 5:15; and is coming again to receive those who are saved according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17.[5]" This is technically incorrect and unsupported. I think that they are referring to this book by Dayton that one can find with excerpts on the Internet - "The Theological Roots of Pentecostalism." I am unable to find the statement that the foursquare gospel refers to the four fundamental beliefs of Pentecostalism within that book. The terminology of the "foursquare gospel" is a term uniquely used by the "International Church of the Foursquare Gospel," not by Pentecostalism as a whole. "It's the Foursquare Gospel, the Foursquare Gospel, Clear let the message of the Foursquare ring, Jesus Only Savior, Baptizer, and Healer, Jesus the Coming King." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QXpWTjacO8 Kids song from Angelus Temple ca. 1925. Easeltine ( talk) 16:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
There is no evidence that any other Pentecostal group uses the term "Foursquare." The term "Foursquare," is not found in any other Pentecostal group's Statement of Faith. Can anyone provide a reference other than Dayton's article from 1980 that uses the terminology "Foursquare?" Dayton is a Northern Baptist, might be a little skewed perspective. Easeltine ( talk) 11:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Category:Pentecostal pastors and related categories have been nominated for renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. Ltwin ( talk) 17:05, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't the appearance of pentecostals be included. They all follow the old testament on how women and men should appear. With women having long hair and long skirts and men having beards and pants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwesar ( talk • contribs) 02:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Are you sure, surely many within the protestant Christian community reject Pentecostalism, http://www.gty.org.uk/resources/sermon-series/219/charismatic-chaos , the Westminster confession of faith (aritcle 1,1) http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ , RC Sproul https://www.gty.org/blog/B131008/rc-sproul-on-the-cessationist-convictions-of-the-reformers , what about some differences in core doctrines /info/en/?search=Oneness_Pentecostalism I don't think you can say it is within Protestant or reformed Theology at all — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeepVeinInsomnia ( talk • contribs) 00:05, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
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